Shifting Culture
Shifting Culture invites you into transformative conversations at the intersection of faith, culture, justice, and the way of Jesus. Host Joshua Johnson engages thoughtful guests in conversations about spiritual growth, justice, creativity, and healing - drawing from the teachings of Jesus to break cycles of division, violence, and pain.
If you're searching for practices that go beyond theory into real-life change - a way of living that honors the dignity of every person and seeks reconciliation even with those we disagree with - this podcast offers fresh perspectives for navigating today's complex world.
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Shifting Culture
Ep. 369 Mark Yarhouse & Julia Sadusky - Navigating and Understanding Emerging Sexual Identities
In this episode, I talk with Dr. Mark Yarhouse and Dr. Julia Sadusky about the rapidly expanding language of emerging sexual identities and what it means for the young people we care about. We explore why new terms keep appearing, how identity forms in adolescence, and what teens are actually trying to express when they use language many of us have never heard before. Rather than reacting with fear or reducing anyone to a label, Mark and Julia help us rethink our posture, moving toward curiosity, presence, and trust instead of anxiety and quick judgments. We dig into discipleship, belonging, and how to walk with teens in a way that reflects the steady, un-fragile heart of God. If you’re a parent, pastor, or leader trying to navigate this moment with wisdom, compassion, and clarity, this conversation offers a hopeful and deeply grounded way forward.
Mark A. Yarhouse, Psy.D., is a clinical psychologist who specializes in conflicts tied to religious identity and sexual and gender identity. He assists people who are navigating the complex relationship between their sexual or gender identity and Christian faith. He is a Professor of Psychology at Wheaton College, where he runs the Sexual and Gender Identity (SGI) Institute and the Mental Health Collective. He is an award-winning teacher and researcher and is the past recipient of the Gary Collins Award for Excellence in Christian Counseling. He was a past participant with the Ethics and Public Policy Center think tank in Washington, DC, and he was named Senior Fellow with the Council of Christian Colleges and Universities to conduct a study of students navigating sexual identity concerns at Christian colleges and universities. He has served for over a decade as the Chair of the task force on LGBT issues for Division 36 (Psychology of Religion and Spirituality) of the American Psychological Association.
Dr. Julia Sadusky is a licensed clinical psychologist and the owner of a private practice in Littleton, CO. She is also an author, consultant, speaker, and adjunct professor. Dr. Sadusky has done extensive research and clinical work in sexual and gender development and specializes in trauma-informed care. She earned a bachelor's degree from Ave Maria University and a master's degree and doctorate in Clinical Psychology from Regent University. She has authored several books around human sexuality and gender with Dr. Mark Yarhouse and has authored several books herself helping equip parents to teach kids and teens about sexuality in developmentally-appropriate ways.
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The heart of God is not fragile and is really ready to step into complexity with people, into the trenches, with people in a way that I think can be hard to mirror, which is the blessing of not being God and trusting God's presence with these young people as we imperfectly show up. You. John,
Joshua Johnson:hello and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create and the impact we can make. We long to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host. Joshua Johnson, you know, navigating identity has never been more complex or more charged than it is for a young person today, the language around sexuality and gender is expanding faster than most of us can keep up with, and for many parents, pastors and leaders, the ground feels like it's shifting beneath our feet, but beneath all the noise, the online pressures and the debates, there are real teenagers trying to name their lived experience and find a place to belong. So in this conversation, I sit down with Dr Mark yarhouse and Dr Julius sadusky to unpack the landscape of emerging sexual identities, not as cultural warriors or theorists, but as people have spent years sitting with young adults, listening for what's underneath the labels. We talk about curiosity over cynicism, how identity forms, why the language keeps expanding, and what it means to walk alongside teenagers without fear, panic or reductionism, and we press into the deeper pastoral question, how do we navigate and cultivate a discipleship that holds space for belonging, honesty and the steady, unfragile heart of God, if you're a parent, if you're a pastor, if you're a youth leader, or simply someone trying to understand the moment we're living in. This episode is full of clarity, nuance and real hope. It's a guide for walking with people not around them and learning to stand on the same side of the net as they wrestle with who they are and who they're becoming. So join us. Here is my conversation with Mark yarhouse and Julius sadusky. Dr, Mark yarhouse, welcome back to shifting culture. Excited to have you back on and Dr, Julius sadusky, it's so good to have you on as well. So welcome and welcome to shifting culture.
Mark Yarhouse:Oh, thank you so much. Glad to be here. That's great, people.
Joshua Johnson:I'm really excited to dive into emerging sexual identities, because it is a landscape that is emerging, right? It's emergent, it's new. It is growing, and the language is growing, and the more definitions are coming, it seems like almost every day. So can you just lay out the grand work for us? What are sexual identities? What are we talking about, and what is starting to emerge?
Mark Yarhouse:So sexual identity is the is when people label themselves, either privately, just thinking about themselves, or publicly to other people, they're telling you about their underlying attractions or their orientation. So when someone says that they're gay or lesbian or even straight, they're using sexual identity language, another way to think about it. Sometimes people call it sexual orientation identity just but it's a little more streamlined if you just say it's sexual identity, but if it helps you to remember that's what they're actually communicating, that's kind of what that word is. So the common in this book, we call them dominant language for sexual identity would be gay, lesbian, bisexual. And then when we talk about emerging, we're talking about sort of, what's on the horizon, what are some new ways, new configurations of sexual identity. So there's all kinds. The Trevor Project had boasted over 100 reported sexual identities among young people, and then another 100 plus for gender identities. And so this would be, you know, things like along the ace spectrum of asexuality, and there's a lot of identities underneath that, whether it's gray sexual or demisexual or pansexual, omnisexual, there's just a number of different variations of sexual identity today,
Joshua Johnson:in your book that we didn't really talk about sexual identity until, what, the 19th century or so, but we're starting to come up with with more sexual identities. Why do you think that, really, we're shifting into a broader breadth of sexual orientation identities? What does it look like, and why do you think it's starting to emerge that there is a diverse more diversity in the language that we're using.
Unknown:One of the things that we talk about in the book is really how queer theory has impacted this conversation quite a bit and and I think, shaped an expanding landscape where people are trying to get more particular and more precise in terms. Terms of how they talk about themselves. And so one of the things we write about in the book is micro, minoritized identity, where people are taking kind of sexual identity and gender identity labels and applying them together again to try to account for what they would describe as maybe the uniqueness of their story, or the uniqueness of their experience of this. And I think as the gender identity labels expand there, there was a felt need for people to then shift how we talk about sexual orientation and identity, because we're not just referencing male female binary. There's now a reference point to all of these emerging gender identities as well.
Joshua Johnson:Can you unpack a little bit of then, what is queer theory and why is it something that's been so impactful in the way that we think about identities and language?
Mark Yarhouse:So queer theory is has its roots in philosophy and literature, traces back to major figures like Foucault, and there's a number of academics in between those historical folks and contemporary queer theorists. And so queer theory is probably most known for wanting to scrutinize and challenge existing norms, normative structures. You know, a good example of this actually would have been years ago when the Supreme Court ruled around marriage, there were queer members of the LGBTQ community who really didn't want gay marriage because marriage was viewed as kind of an assimilationist strategy by the mainstream gay community, as identifying something that was symbolic and valued within society and the gay community could sort of be esteemed and recognized as on par with so for a queer theorist, they're looking at that saying, why would you ever enter into existing normative structures that elevate heterosexuality and then you sort of assimilate into that structure that they want to look, look at that whole thing and say, No, that whole thing needs to be deconstructed. We're not subject to the, you know, the normativities of existing society. We're not interested in the binaries of existing society. These become sources of oppression for people. So we tear all that down. So they're not as interested in maybe the identity, even the identity first language. So in some ways, emerging sexual identities are indebted to the role of queer theory historically. But they're not asking for the same thing. You know, they're they're wanting to be more granular, and as Julia talked about, that micro, minoritized way of thinking about yourself? Well, queer theory is not as interested in those categories, especially anything that would be an alternative to a norm allows the norm to stay in power. So queer theory wants to push him against all of that.
Joshua Johnson:If queer theory is not really interested in all these, these micro minority types of identity labels that we're trying to find in ourselves. What were the major impacts of queer theory on really, just the way that we're starting to think and outside of the norm and the binary? What was the major impact?
Unknown:Yeah, I think you hit on it there. I mean, I mean just the sense of a kind of endless expanse of opportunities for how people will conceptualize gender really does have an impact then on how people think of who am I romantically and or sexually attracted to? Right? Because if the people across from me are adopting labels that have this wide expanse, then I can opt in or out of labels that would be more particular right to the relationship with a person across from me who would not then identify with the binary in many cases. And so I think that that has had a pretty profound impact. I think with young people today, what I see a lot is they're not even aware of how much queer theory has shaped some of this. Even if you know they're reading on Reddit or other things, quotes from Judith Butler and other kind of figures in this space, they're not actually aware of how those quotes, where they're coming from, how they're shaped by queer theory, and then they're applying them, I think, in sometimes logically inconsistent ways, right, in how they think about themselves and how they think about romantic relationships or sexual relationships moving forward
Joshua Johnson:as we walk through life. And you know, this is one thing that we have in our life, our sexual identities and who we're attracted to and what that looks like. How do identities, our own identities, start to emerge in our lives. How do we start to form them? How are they formed? Where are they coming from? That's a really interesting question.
Mark Yarhouse:I mean, you know, I think many people would say today that we're a society. We're a point in history where identity is very central, very much salient, to our sense of person. Hood, but that that wouldn't have been the case for most of time, that is just not the way people thought of themselves. You might be a man, a husband, a father, but the idea of like identity being associated with the sexuality and gender in the way that we're talking about it would have just been foreign to a lot of people. And I think it was probably Charles Taylor, was one of the first philosophers who really unpacked this idea that identity has become such a central part of kind of how you configure yourself, how you think about yourself, and the importance of that. And so others have stepped into that conversation, but I would commend you, his writing would be probably the most extensive treatment of that sort of philosophically and historically. I think where we take it in a more contemporary conversation, we draw on another philosopher named Ian hacking. He's a Canadian philosopher who passed away just a couple of years ago, and he talks more about how he has an interesting essay called Making up people. And sort of the idea is now he was involved in demography, where you categorize people, and his observation was that people respond to how they're being categorized, and that one of the primary ways that we categorize people in Western societies is actually through diagnostic nosology, and so we we end up using labels like we used to use, like multiple personality disorder came dissociative identity disorder, and we have autism spectrum disorder, and there was Asperger's for a season, and now that's not there, and we had gender identity disorder, and now that's been removed so and may his main point is, as you, as you categorize people through these diagnoses, there's a he called a looping effect of different ways in which different things that happen as a result of that, you Have the very people who are being categorized, and they know they're being categorized. They know they're being diagnosed. They know that they're part of the system. So they interact, individually and as a group, with the ways in which language is being used to sort of categorize them and put them in this kind of box. And then you have institutions like my institution, and others and APA and other different groups that interview them and study them and report on them. And then you have what becomes conjectural knowledge, or sort of taken for granted realities. This is going to be, what are people talking on about on the view, or what's happening on Jimmy Fallon and so there, if you were to show up and say, Hey, I think there's two genders, you would be outside of, like, the current cultural discourse of hundreds of genders and hundreds of sexualities. And so then you have experts finally in this loop that get to determine what counts as real knowledge about this topic, like how many genders are there, or what's going to be in the next diagnostic manual, and that's how we ended up moving from thinking of this as an identity issue, gender identity to being a dysphoric issue, a distress issue. Or we went from homosexuality as a pathology to removing it, you know. And so all of these are subject to looping effects. And the only observation we really made about that for this conversation emerging sexual identities is that they're not indebted to experts. The way the dominant sort of mainstream gay community was like they needed experts to say it's no longer a psychopathology. Well, at 14 or 15, you know, you're indebted to that history, but you're not counting on mental health professionals to validate you. You're Springboarding off of that. You know you're you're, in a sense, we say, you bypass experts. You don't, you don't, you're not subject to their opinion, whereas in the past, others would have been.
Joshua Johnson:I want to take a broader look, then at the specific type of culture, I think, is it more prominent to see these emerging sexual identities in in a more individualistic society where they find things from within themselves, rather than a collectivistic society? Have you seen anything any difference there? Or is it just really emerging worldwide because of our our global monocultural culture that's starting to happen because of we're all connected. And for some reason, it seems like we're all part of a similar culture.
Unknown:And certainly mark you can speak to this too, but I've seen that right. You know, sexual attractions of various types and various directions exist across cultures, across history, and have been well documented. And the same thing around experiences of gender distress. And so it's not to say that these experiences only exist in Western cultures. And yet, the ways that I think we're conceptualizing identity today in Western culture. Or is shaped in a kind of profound way by our own society and and I can just say anecdotally in my work with clients that some of my clients who come out of more collectivistic settings have a complex experience with the mainstream LGBT narrative today, that there can be a desire to identify in some way with the community in the sense that there are, there are, perhaps, benefits in how much the public discourse has been shaped around this conversation in ways that mean a teen can talk about this with their family, and their parents have a reference point for some of these categories. But as far as some of the landscape that we see that's micro minoritized. For instance, I think for some people, they would be much more willing, in a less individualistic setting, to say, No, I'm going to use language that allows me to communicate with people around me, and I'm going to forego certain terms because they feel so caught up in a western society that doesn't represent some of the values that are important to me.
Joshua Johnson:So as you said, now they're starting to say, hey, we're free and we're open to be able to talk about these things and to express who we believe that we are at this moment in time, as things may stay the same, they may shift over time, if people start to come to say, either parents or a minister within the church, and they're they're navigating some of these issues of their emerging sexual identity, what's a posture that we could start to help people navigate These sexual identities that they are trying to navigate on the inside and themselves,
Mark Yarhouse:I think the basic posture, and let me contrast it with what we're trying to avoid here. Because I think, I think sometimes when people hear, you know, someone says, I'm an aromantic Demi boy, or I'm a, you know, tri gender, gray, sexual. I could imagine someone just kind of like, oh, okay, what if, like, either dumbfounded or incredulous, or like, cynical or Here we go. We're doing this. Like, are we really signing up for this anymore? Like, I think there's that's, that's obviously the ministry posture. We're trying to say, can we prevent that from happening? You know, in real time, this is a young person who is saying, This is how I best know how to communicate what I'm experiencing right now. And, you know, should there be a broader cultural engagement with the language and the deconstruct and deconstruction of norms? And what do we do with that as Christians in this space? Yes, but the person is in front of you, right? So I think the posture is going to be one more of curiosity, more of humility, asking better questions, you know. And I think for both Julie and I, you know, we come at these things as as psychologists who are always wondering, always curious, how does language function for people? You know, what? What does it serve for them? And there are probably ways in which the way we think about ourselves and do things in our life serves us, and we don't even think about it, right? And so here's a young person where, you know, identity, language and categories almost function as currency for a lot of young people. And it's it's credibility, and it's relationship, and it's sense of self and personhood and sense of community and sense of family, and so, yeah, to be a little bit more attuned to, I think I'm just curious what's compelling and you know, what's you know, you could ask that in a kind of direct way that feels almost antagonistic, or you could have a posture of genuine openness and curiosity, even though you have no reference point for this, because your generation was never exposed to the broad vista of possibilities that are that are available to a 14 or 15 year old today. Well, that alone should be something to be curious about, right? Versus, if two were good enough for me, then two are good enough for you. Like that posture is not going to really lend itself to ministry.
Unknown:I think another piece that comes up for me in this is, you know, tone is everything with teenagers, I see a lot of parents, a lot of pastors who Mark kind of mentioned this, but asking the same question in a different tone, you know, has a really different impact on a young person. So if I was to say, you know, I know nothing about this stuff, what the heck are you talking about? Or if I say, Gosh, I don't, I don't know as much about this as you, I think, and I would love to hear more about like, can you help me understand where you're coming from on this, to be honest, this is really new territory for me, because I see a lot of people in ministry and parents who very much know that they are kind of on their back foot here. And because of that, they actually don't tend as much to be antagonistic in some cases as they tend to say nothing. And. Then that also sends a message right from Christian so we don't have anything to offer you in this landscape. And one of the important pieces, I think, of our posture too, is maybe This distinguishes us from more of a secular paradigm, to not just assume all of this is stress free for young people and merely liberating. I mean, many of the young people that I talk to feel overwhelmed by the expanding landscape, and they're trying to figure out, how do I do my calculus homework, while also in kind of getting a sense for who I am. And so I think as Christian, Christians in this space, our posture can also be one of holding space for the challenges there for them and saying, what questions do you have about this language? What's been challenging about it for you, or what don't you kind of align with? Is there anything that you don't quite get about it, and that just creates space for critical thinking as well?
Joshua Johnson:I mean, I know as we're walking through our teenage years and our youth and our 20s, like we're trying on different identities and groups to be able to say, I'm finding my tribe here. I find who I am and this spot. And sometimes that works, and sometimes it doesn't, and then I go to a different spot. So in the the shifting landscape, sometimes of people trying to figure out where they belong. And I think probably belonging is part of what is happening here, is we're trying to figure out where I belong. Who am I? Where do I belong, and how do I fit in this world? What does it look like to walk people through something where they are trying to find their tribe, their people, and where they belong?
Mark Yarhouse:Well, I think walking with people again, it's that, that curiosity about it, I think to Julia's point, I think sometimes young people, one of the concerns that's been raised is, Will young people pressed by others to demonstrate authenticity? So when you use language like this, it's been very important in the gay community that you are who you say you are. And so that's one thing. If you're 1819, 26 and you say that you're gay or you're bisexual, but what if you're 14 or 13? And a lot of this is curated in online, digital and social media. And so I think one person that we've we've read, that we were indebted to, I think in terms of just conceptual framework, was a writer named Rob cover, and he talks about how that that sense of like authenticity and sort of scrutiny of it, are you who you say you are, if It's if there's pressure placed on younger and younger people where, where this micro, minoritized space is free, seems to be more popular among younger people, then that drive and insistence on authenticity, are people ready for that in terms of the stress and mental health concerns that could arise. And again, this population is already subject to greater risk for depressive disorders, anxiety disorders and other concerns, so you know. And he's writing that from within the community, saying, Look, do we know what we're doing here, or what's what's happening here in terms of young people being in that space and feeling more stressed. So I think I just want to reiterate Julia's point about being sensitive to that. And then you're, you're kind of walking with people. I think of it as like thinking of just the common denominator of people, or we like meaning and a sense of purpose and and so how does what meaning is derived from language. And how are you landing on language that makes sense for you? And we often talk about is drafts. You don't have to land on language that is set in stone. You can always return to things. And actually, a lot of young people we both work with do try things on, and they do say, I think it's this, and then maybe a year and a half later, they think it's a different word, or couple of words come together that capture it better. And then sometimes parents, in this just sheer like exhaustion around it or incredulity around it, they look back and they use it almost against the child. Like, how do you know who you How can I take what you're saying at 17, you've been down this road and three different iterations of possibilities, and I think it ends up being kind of like they're almost on trial, like you're so you can get the scrutiny from the gay community. Are you who you say you are? You can get the scrutiny from parents and others in ministry. Does the you know, does the journey of identity mean this is all just up for grabs. It's, it's, it's really nothing of any significance, and we'll just wait this out till you kind of work back to the norms that I'm familiar with, like all of those things can be in play here.
Unknown:Yeah, I think one of the things I'm thinking of that we've written about in this and other resources is. Idea of where does a teen find a secure base to operate from as they explore identity, right and and how much of a pressure cooker it can be for them when parents are sometimes hoping or anticipating that this is a phase and it in saying so or framing it in this way that teen can sometimes react against that and kind of double down in ways that aren't authentic to them, but it's more of what's at stake is proving to my parents, I know who I am, that I can kind of successfully find my way in the world. There's a lot at stake as they navigate these questions. And so I think for parents to kind of take a step back. Pastors to take a step back, take a long term view, and kind of not ignore these questions. Because I think sometimes, again, from the framework of this is a phase pastors are taught, oh, just don't talk about it at all. It'll, you know, buy yourself some time, wait it out, and this will subside. And that too can signal we can't answer or explore these questions with you in an environment, a faith community or a family that could be an enormous place of belonging actually, right? And perhaps the more secure base than even my peer group or social media and online context. And so I think being able to walk the narrow ridge of on the one hand, acknowledging that yes, teens are exploring identity. They're looking for a sense of belonging, and that will shift over time for some teens, while also giving the teen the benefit of the doubt that they're actually really trying to wrestle with this, with integrity, even as they may shift and evolve, as opposed to what some of the teams I meet with tell me, which is, if I tell my parents that I've shifted here, that I've changed my mind, they're going to think I was doing it for attention after all, and they're going to signal I told you so and so. I think that's another important piece of this process, is, can they find a sense of belonging in families, in church communities, as they're kind of exploring this, or are we signaling, you know, kind of in subtle, or less subtle ways, that you have to figure this out, out there, and then come back to us when you've landed in a place that feels steady for you,
Joshua Johnson:that kind of leads me into a place of a discipleship issue, like, what does it? What does discipling look like in a way where there is belonging, and there's a space to be able to orient ourselves towards Jesus and wanting to say, hey, we would actually want to try and embody the ways of Jesus, follow Him, to start to look more like him in this world. I mean, that's something that we have had to deal with in the church. One is really a boundary set of where, hey, you're either in or out, and if you're out, you got to figure yourself out, and then you can be in or like a centered set type of approach, where Jesus is at the center, and we're all facing either towards him or away from him, and we're all on a journey towards there. What does then discipleship look like? And how do we start to orient people towards Christ in the middle of people figuring out sexual orientation identities?
Unknown:Yeah, one of the things that I think becomes really important with young people today is actually trust building in a way that reflects trustworthiness of God in their lives, his desire to be intimately involved in these questions and the 2000 other things that are flowing through their minds on a daily basis. And also, I think not expecting so little of our young people. I think sometimes we can water down kind of the spiritual life for young people in ways that creates environments in our churches where it's really more of a social club for them. And if it's one among many social clubs, they can opt in and out of it like they would, kind of other social context. And so you mentioned Christ likeness, and this is what we talk about a good bit in the book, is, what does it look like to help teens move towards Christ, likeness, in prayer, in kind of a relationship with God that is bringing in these questions and all the other questions, and by our own presence in a youth's life, saying, I care about those pieces like God cares about those pieces, Right? And I think building that sense of trust, acknowledging to how in any given faith community, different generations are going to be using different language for these conversations. So if a sermon comes up on a Sunday that talks about people struggling with same sex attraction, for instance, right or struggling with gender distress, can we check in with our youth who are navigating these questions and help them interact with that language and help them know that is more of that residual framework work that we write about in the book, and what they're talking about is what you're talking about when you say abort a gender, right? And arrow ace and so. But they're using different language, helping with critical thinking. Helping them know that I can belong in a faith community where people are going to use language differently, and God's kind of holding space for all of us to come and worship in the same space. So that's another piece I think of. And then lastly, trying to help the youth identify pockets of safety in their family, in the kind of pastoral care team, not expecting every single person in the faith community to be perfect in how they approach and engage with this. And I think some teens I write about this a little bit in the book really are kind of taught right now that if people aren't right where I am, they're not safe, they're not trustworthy. And so I'm always trying to work with teens, have you kind of hold space for your own experience and differentiate from Yes, I don't agree with this person in this conversation in every way, and I can still partake in the life of discipleship and share my perspective in a kind of respectful, mature way.
Joshua Johnson:I mean, that's a discipleship issue for all of us. I mean, because it seems like our culture is in a place where, if you don't have my exact same beliefs, or we're not on the exact same page, we can't actually communicate and talk, and we don't know how to talk across differences or language or barriers. And so that is a deception issue for every single person I want to know for both of you, as you've been sitting with people and helping people navigate some of these things in their lives, what have you learned about the heart of God as you've been sitting with people? It's a
Mark Yarhouse:really, really interesting question. One of the things that that we talk a lot about it, when Julia talked about trust and trustworthiness. You know, the heart of God, in my experience towards someone in this space is that of a father. And so I think young people are the beloved, like they're they're loved by God, and that God wants a relationship with them. And so I think in some ways, discipleship pairs well with this. This next question is ultimately, in my view, discipleship is helping a young person trust that God is a good and loving father whose own heart and instruction in these areas are going to be better and a path for flourishing than the instructions and guidance they have from all sorts of competing voices. And so again, from a ministry standpoint, you know, so much of our faith is interpersonally mediated, like we come to dare to trust God in these ways because we're around people who bear his name, and we begin to think it's plausible that there could be a God like that, because I've been loved well by people who bear his name, likewise, when I've been mistreated by those same people, it's hard for me to believe that there's a God behind this whole thing that I could I could trust, that I could feel loved by right? So it's so important for ministry, and I think for parenting, to sort of live the live out, embody the heart of God, towards that, towards that young person. They're Beloved. They're loved by God. God wants a relationship with them, and so and in many cases, in my experience, they have a relationship with God. It's fragile. It feels like something that they're told by many other people that they can't have. They can't have both. They can't be in this space and also be loved by God. And of course, those are things that you know we have to push back against. And but the love of the Father, the heart of the Father, I think, is a big part of what I've seen, yeah,
Unknown:one of the pieces that always strikes me and feels increasingly clear as I do this work is how volatile the human heart is and how not volatile the heart of God is that we have our own anxieties and irritabilities and questions and concerns that can so often drive how we relate to young people today, so many fear based approaches, and it comes when I think about that for myself as a person who's walked with young people, as a friend, as a psychologist, that there can be a fragility in me where I feel almost as if the faith that I hold or the teachings of the Church are fragile in some sense, and I need to kind of protect them and lay them out kind of in a consistent way, or they won't be so sturdy and so strong. And I think the heart of God is not so fragile, and certainly not driven by fear. And so there's a way in which there's a steadiness to the God's heart for people, a presence that is so stable and ready to show up in these complex spaces, and there's not as much of a need to kind of cling to anything that we in our ministry may feel. The need to cling to our teachings are not fragile. The heart of God is not fragile. People, and is really ready to step into complexity with people, into the trenches with people, in a way that I think can be hard to mirror, which is the blessing of not being God and trusting God's presence with these young people as we imperfectly show up.
Joshua Johnson:When I was growing up and a lot of people were growing up, it felt like there was a, it was almost a binary of language. This is, this is wrong. This is right. You know, this is moral. This is, this is bad, like there, there's a binary type of language. I think a lot of people my age and older will probably have a lot of that similar language and thinking as we're navigating a landscape which is more open and this binary language isn't really popular. How do we navigate some of those issues? What is like God's desire for us? What is God's desire not for us? And what, what are we doing? How do we learn a language that actually points to God and His desire for our lives and who we are that is not just binary language?
Unknown:Yeah, I think one of the mistakes we've made is, is, you know, well intentioned people hoping that if we categorize this in binary categories. So it's morally problematic to identify as gay, let's say, or to use any one of these labels, that if that's framed as sin, the hope is we'll kind of course correct people, or we'll keep them from doing these things. And what we know about many people, including teenagers, is that kind of categories of yes, no, good, bad, in and of themselves, don't create the context for us to live virtuously and live in Christ like ways, if anything, kind of doubling down on this is bad and this is good and that's dangerous. Can create a sense of forbidden fruit. Can create a sense of shame that actually does drive compulsion in areas of sexuality in ways that can be morally problematic for people. And so I think helping in our kind of adult understanding of this to recognize that if the hope is to help teens think critically about language, if the hope is to help them think, what would God have for me in sexual relationships. Moving forward, the way to do that is to create actual space for young people to explore some of this language and categories, instead of moralizing the language as such. Because again, these teens, many times when they share with me, you know, I think I might be arrow ace, they're not engaging in any behavioral shifts through that language. If anything, they're they're abstaining from sexual activity out of that language. And so to frame that in moral categories can be quite confusing for them, as to, what am I doing wrong by simply using these terms? And so I think remembering in ministry around sexuality that a teen sharing these things with you may have no bearing on behavior in the kind of moral realm, and is simply, as Mark said earlier, them trying to articulate in the language that they are referencing, a little bit about how they understand themselves today at this time. And we can talk, and we do in the book, about how to offer kind of frameworks and teachings around sexual behavior without expecting that the ministry is simply about yes, no, good, bad, and then we've kind of done what we need to do in teaching the faith.
Joshua Johnson:How does gender and emerging gender identities merge with sexual identities? What is the overlap there? And are we navigating some of the same issues with gender identity? Or is there an overlap? Or are they very distinct?
Mark Yarhouse:Yeah, so a couple of years ago, we wrote a book called Emerging gender identities that sort of charted this course of you know, what are the developments, particularly in the rise of, I would say non binary experiences, and non binary is an umbrella term for a lot of different experiences of gender that reside either in between the binary of man woman or outside the binary. So we were kind of just entering into that space. And then when we always thought maybe we would do a corresponding book on emerging sexual identities. And so this would emphasize more the experience of attraction and orientation and things like that. But as we were doing that, we realized that there was a percentage of young people who were doing both that that concept of micro, minoritized identities drawing on both. So gender is definitely a part of this conversation, particularly emerging or emergent ways of thinking about yourself. We wouldn't want to think of it as rigidly. It's just about sexual identity. It's often about gender identity and some combination of the two. So that's, I think, increasingly popular. And I don't mean it like a. Necessarily a trend. I just think it's increasingly you're seeing younger people gravitating towards that as, again, ways of naming their reality, naming their experience. Why would I just name my sexuality when my gender's equally important and either or both could be non normative? So no, it's definitely in play. Again, with gender, I don't think person's telling you anything really about their issues of morality. I think they're they're not telling you things that you'd be like, Oh, I don't know if that's morally Permissible or impermissible. They're just saying, No, I'm, I'm pangender. No, I'm, I'm a demi boy, like I they're just using language to communicate something so super important that we get back into the posture of I wonder, you know, if I haven't heard that before, I wonder what that means to them. And some of these terms will mean slightly different things to different people, like if I heard non binary, because I know it's an umbrella term, there's a lot of different ways people could be thinking about themselves, just as if you heard transgender. There's many ways people could be thinking about themselves, so that curiosity, how might it function for them, is always a kind of a question that I'm wondering about. So yeah, those are entryways into ministry, I think, in both sexual and gender identity. Yeah, the
Unknown:biggest thing I see happening is young people who I meet with are trying to leave space for the people they haven't met yet who may be adopting different gender identities as they think in reference to sexual orientation, so they may be more inclined to say, you know, I'm I'm bi romantic, to kind of account for there's, there's a lot of people out there that I might be attracted to at some point romantically, who may identify on a kind of continuum of gender identity. So that's one way they're related. Is I'm thinking in reference to my relationships, and who might I be drawn to in some cases in the abstract, not always, but in some cases in the abstract. And so that's that's a nuance in how these intersect. Another thing I see is that some young people are focusing on one or the other, as if I want to figure out the gender identity piece, and use language around sexual orientation that is kind of expansive enough to kind of let me figure this out. Or conversely, I maybe know who I'm attracted to. I have a sense for that, but this gender piece who I am as I show up in relationships with other people, including romantic ones that I haven't quite figured out yet. And so I might use language that accounts for more fluidity there in order to kind of leave space for who am I. And I'm figuring that out, and I don't know. And so again, sometimes when teens use language, we think of it as a way that they're kind of putting their flag in the sand and they're digging in their heels, when really sometimes they're trying to use this expansive language, actually, to communicate to you that I'm actively wrestling with this and fluidity. That type of framework helps me take the pressure off of some of these things at an age when I have so much else kind of vying for my attention, and so that's maybe another way I think of it, is they're, they're kind of focusing on one and then leaving the other a little bit more flexible or loose, if you will, to really account for the journey that they're on through adolescence and emerging adulthood
Joshua Johnson:as they're on this journey. I think a lot of times when we, I mean, if I have somebody come to me and they're saying words I don't know. A lot of times I'm afraid I and because I I just don't know the language. I really don't know how to talk to them. So I'm gonna, I might shut down as they're coming to me. I might engage, but as I engage there, sometimes it's not going to be helpful if I just say, this is all of who you are. This is your core identity. Sometimes we do that to people too. It's like your emerging sexual identity is the only thing really about you, and we make it the most important thing about them. So as people come to us, if we're afraid, or if we're trying to say, dealing with this issue, what are some nuanced ways to to actually alleviate some of our own fear of engaging in conversation around these topics, and how, like, how much importance should we and wait? Should we be giving these topics?
Unknown:That's a great question. Yeah, I think a lot of people are afraid that if they over emphasize these pieces, they're pushing somebody down a trajectory almost prematurely, whether that's in the realm of sexual orientation or gender, and on the other hand, afraid of saying the wrong thing. And so again, then that's where the fear leads to that shutdown. I'm not going to say anything at all. And I think if that is the case, it's been mentioned already that teens value authenticity, and that's a kind of metric for them. And so even for adults to bring in a level of authenticity that this is new territory, like I'm trying to figure out how to hold. All of these things with you here, even that kind of appropriate modeling of a bit of vulnerability on the part of adults goes a long way in inviting that type of vulnerability from youth. Now you're not voicing I'm angry and I'm scared and you're not getting into all the details, but just acknowledging I'm trying to hold this piece of your story that feels really important, and I also don't want to be reductive of you, that's one thing is, I think just making that very explicit with young people is a value. And then sometimes in ministry and parenting, this can almost, yeah, as you said, take up all the space on the screen where suddenly all the conversations in our family are about gender and sexuality, and we're we're not spending time with one another in any other way. I've sometimes told parents, you know, when's the last time you did something that you and your child both enjoy doing together? Oh, we both like biking. Well, why don't you go do that and don't talk to each other? Because it seems like that that's actually getting really difficult right now, and so creating intentional space to zoom out, as opposed to saying merely to our kids, you know, oh, I don't see you as this. You know, you're you're not defined by this. Because, again, that can be almost more of just putting this in a box somewhere and hoping it goes away when we do that. And so being able to create intentional space to receive the whole person across from you is really valuable. And then finally, I think, you know, in ministry especially, sometimes we reference these kids as if this is the only part of their identity worth talking about. So that kids queer, that kid's, you know, they just told us they're non binary, and now every ministry conversation is in reference to that kid and their gender and sexual identity, as opposed to, hey, when's the last time you asked them how their prayer life is going? Right in general, what are the things they're praying about? What are the things they're afraid to bring to God in prayer? Well, those are ministry questions, right? That help them connect to God in the community in a rich way. So even how we talk with these young people and about them, I think, shapes our posture and our sense of expanding around this while containing this aspect of their story.
Mark Yarhouse:Well, I just, I would offer a couple other pieces to compliment that. So I think one is to be prepared. This book, this interview, this podcast, helps you prepare that you know that this is a conversation that's taking place. So I think when we feel more anxious is often we don't know what's happening. We don't know that. We don't know that it is happening. We don't know the language is out there. So preparing yourself be prepared is the first place we talked about being curious. That's another one. If someone tells you, your child, someone in middle school youth group, tells you this, they're inviting you to learn something more about them that you didn't know before. So be curious like I would take this as an invitation to greater intimacy, to know this person better, versus a political discourse a how does this fit with how I think about this as this political party or that political party? You can take it to a political ideological conversation, but you've just lost an opportunity to know them better, right? So be prepared, be curious. And then lastly, be on the same side and think about it this way, in a tennis match or a pickleball match, if that's your thing, you're either going to be on the same side of the net facing whatever's out there. Are you going to be on the other side of the net? And a lot of times in ministry and in as parents, people can inadvertently position themselves on the other side of the net. So here's a child, you know, 1415, they're telling you something. And so you start to just go devil's advocate. You can start to go pepper them with questions. You start to sort of be and all of a sudden you're, if you just imagine where you are on the spatial, relational piece with them, you're on the other side of the net. And that's hard to move away from that position. But if you could think in advance as a mother, as a father, as a youth minister. As they share this with me, in my mind, I'm going to locate myself next to them, facing whatever's on the other side of the net might be changing culture, might be peer group, whatever it might be questions about God, it might be all kinds of things. But I'm going to join them in facing like, if they're asking really interesting and good questions about life, I want to be with them as they ask those questions. I've probably asked those questions. I might be asking those questions right now, but I don't normally talk with this person about it, and here they are opening up with me. So location is a big thing, so be prepared, be curious, and then be on the same side of the net.
Joshua Johnson:And that's that's a great place, actually, to end conversation here, because that is really a hope of what it looks like to engage this conversation. To engage your book emerging sexual identities, which is out now and available anywhere books are sold, so you could go and get that is. Really helpful for me to walk through where things are coming from, where they are now, these emergent sexual identities and really navigating these pastoral and parenting issues. What does it look like to walk with people as they're on this journey? Was really, really helpful for me. So this book, I really highly recommend to go and get the book. I think it's going to be really helpful for a lot of people. I'd love to get a couple of recommendations from both of you, of just anything you've been reading or watching lately. You could recommend
Mark Yarhouse:things I've been reading. So I'm in a book club right now, and we just read Jonathan hates the anxious generation, and so it actually maps on pretty well with what we're talking about here, but just understanding particularly how the introduction not just like you know, you can go back to when was the internet first built, but like the use of smartphones and the access to them, and some of the things that he recommends we do to sort of give kids a break from that and what that does to them, to us, but particularly younger people with smartphone technology. And then even the way that certain apps allow you to not just post ideas and share ideas, but now sort of critique and comment, and that's created that whole atmosphere, that charged atmosphere of cancel culture and people pushing against you and just piling on, you know, with all your followers against this person, with their followers like he documents this by date of release, and here's the empirical evidence for the impact on young people in anxiety, depression. That's maybe a little more sobering one, but that's the one we're reading right now, and that's what we want to talk about in to talk about our next
Unknown:book club. So I'm more of a re reader of books I like. Sometimes I read them once, and I think I should read it again, because I forgotten the whole thing. So there's a book by Eve Tushnet called tenderness, and it actually reflects on her experience of God as a gay Catholic. And what does it look like to encounter the tenderness of God by virtue of being a sexual minority, as opposed to seeing my experience as a sexual minority as something that serves as a barrier or a block from my relationship with God, and in kind of rereading and re reflecting on that, I think it's such a helpful first insight into some of the spiritual journeys of people navigating these questions in youth and in adolescence, and be thinking, what are the kind of principles and spiritual insights that we want young people to be carrying with them into adulthood, so that their Christian faith is such a resource to them as They navigate these questions, as opposed to something that is an impediment to authenticity and freedom. And so I think that's kind of Yeah, something recent I've been reading that has been really rich, and also, I think, gives some guidance to listeners on how to cultivate spiritual maturity in the lives of Christian young people.
Joshua Johnson:Great recommendations. Is there anywhere you'd like to point people to? How can they connect with you and what you're doing?
Mark Yarhouse:Well, our institute, the sexual and gender identity Institute, would be great. So that's wheaton.edu backslash SGI for sexual gender identity Institute. I'm also on X or Twitter and Instagram,
Unknown:and my website is Julia sadusky.com and I'm on a little bit of YouTube videos and Instagram and sub stack, also doing some writing more recently that people can follow along with
Joshua Johnson:perfect Well Mark and Julia, thank you for unpacking the emerging sexual identities with us and really walking us through what does it look like To walk with people and journey with young people through this time and this age and what this looks like for us as ministers, as parents. It was a fantastic conversation. Hopefully it's really helpful for a lot of people. And so thank you so much.
Mark Yarhouse:Thank you. Joshua, great to be with you. Great to see you too. Juliet, you you.
