Ep. 370 Stephanie Spellers - What the Nones and Dones Teach Us About the Future of Faith

The church is in a moment of honest reckoning. Attendance is shrinking, institutions are thinning, and many who once belonged now stand on the outside looking in. In this conversation with author and priest Stephanie Spellers, we explore what the “nones” and “dones” are teaching us about faith, community, and the way of Jesus. Stephanie invites us to look directly at decline, name the shame we carry, and listen to the prophetic longings rising from a generation hungry for authenticity, belonging, and spiritual depth. We talk about Christian nationalism, idolized structures, meeting God outside our buildings, the table as a site of renewal, and the possibility of becoming a true Jesus movement again. If you care about where the church is headed, or whether new life can emerge from the dry bones, this episode offers clarity, courage, and hope.

Rev. Stephanie Spellers is a renowned author, Episcopal priest and change agent. Her newest book, "Church Tomorrow?: What the Nones and Dones Teach Us About the Future of Faith," explores the stories of nonreligious young Americans and their prophetic charge to traditional, declining religion. She recently completed nearly a decade leading The Episcopal Church's work on evangelism, racial reconciliation and environmental justice. Today she serves as canon in residence at St. Bartholomew's Episcopal Church in New York City.

Stephanie's Book:

Church Tomorrow?

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Transcript

Stephanie Spellers: 0:31

Will the real Christians please stand up? They're terrified of white Christo nationalism. They're terrified that Christianity has been co opted, abused by people who have a political agenda but nothing to do with Jesus, where they want to use the structures and the symbols of Christianity in order to hurt people, to control people, to dominate the culture. They see this, and their question of me and of us is, where are the real Christians? You? Josh,

Joshua Johnson: 1:20

hello and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create and the impact we can make. We long to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host. Joshua Johnson, you know, the church is changing, and most of us can feel it. Attendance is dropping, institutions are thinning out, and the old ways of being Christian just don't hold the same weight they once did. But underneath all of that loss is a deeper question, what is the spirit inviting us into now in this conversation, Stephanie spellers helps us face the moment with honesty and hope. Her new book, church tomorrow comes out of years of listening to the nones and dones, people who've stepped outside the church but haven't stopped longing for God, belonging, meaning or community. What they shared with her sounds less like criticism and more like a series of invitations to become real Christians again to release our idols, to meet God outside our walls, and to form communities where people can bring their whole selves. This episode moves through decline, disaffiliation, authenticity and renewal. It's about a faith that doesn't cling to institution for its own sake, but leans into the way of Jesus, humble, embodied, liberating and alive with the Spirit. If you care about the future of the church, or if you've ever wondered whether there can be one, this conversation will speak directly to you. So join us. Here is my conversation with Stephanie. Spellers. Stephanie, welcome to shifting culture. It's an honor to have you on thanks for joining me.

Unknown: 2:52

Oh, thank you so much, Joshua, I'm really excited for this conversation.

Joshua Johnson: 2:56

It's actually a really important conversation that we need to have with the church that like, Okay, what is the church of tomorrow gonna look like? Is there gonna be a church of tomorrow? We are living in this period of decline, especially from institutional Christianity and the institutional church. So can you just like, lay the groundwork for us? Like, where are we in the church? What has been happening over the last 30 years, 40 years, 50 years, we're in a period of decline. What's it look like? Ooh, it's rough out there.

Unknown: 3:28

And most people don't need me to tell them that I have often wondered, is like, I hope I'm not being gratuitous and digging into some of this data, but, but I think it's necessary, it is, but also to bring a theological lens to it. I talk a lot about in this book, church tomorrow, what the nones and dones teach us about the future of faith. I talk a lot in this book about, there's this picture of the valley of the dry bones Ezekiel in that valley. And you know, when we get quiet and we talk about what it's like in most of our mainline congregations these days, I'm talking about Episcopal, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist, United Church of Christ, American Baptist also, increasingly some evangelical communities in that group, we know that something has been dying in our midst, a way of life, a way of understanding Christianity and the church. And so what I've the first part of this book, and really the impetus, a lot of the impetus for this book was just saying, Can we sit with that? Can we not pretend it's not happening because it's happening? So yeah. So I talk about what it's like being in this valley of the dry bones, and why, how we got here. So a lot of what I deal with is, not only why have people disaffiliated from church. But why are they disaffiliated from institutional life writ large? What has happened in American life that once upon a time, people were defined by their associations, defined by their relationships with organizations, institutions, and now that's just not the case. So I kind of trace through American history, you know, what are the reasons? What are the cultural factors that led to this disaffiliation? And you won't be surprised again, a lot of this, we know this. We know. That there's greater privatization, that we are lonelier and lonelier and more and more isolated, and how we live, especially thanks to technology, we know that there is secularization, not just that people are leaving religion behind or don't believe in God, but more importantly, that that the role of religion in American life, and the trust that religion holds in American life, that a lot of that has decreased, and that people feel like they can question more and honestly do life without religion. And then another force is pluralization. In other words, there's so many options. And again, a lot of this is because of the internet, but it's also just, you know, the zeitgeist you're like, I don't have to choose. I don't have to choose the person I'm going to be with. I don't have to choose to marry that person. I don't have to choose what clothing I like best or what brands I like best. I can shift around. I can move around. And I also don't have to really choose what religion or spiritual path I want. I can piece all these things together. So when you create a context like that, traditional religion just doesn't make a lot of sense anymore. And that's where we find ourselves. We don't make sense in this culture now.

Joshua Johnson: 6:51

So if we're in the institution at the moment, you, I mean, you write decline hurts all over. It feels like a judgment on our congregations, on us as followers of Jesus, yeah. How does shame play a part and functioning in a part of church decline? And then how do we move from like shame to truth, telling and honesty and saying this is where we are.

Unknown: 7:15

Yes, yes, yes. That's so important. Yeah, that shame, I think it's created a cloud over so many of our congregations, so much of our church life. You know that we are apologizing for even being there? You know, on the one hand, we wish people would come and join us. But on the other hand, we're constantly saying, but we know why, you wouldn't. We know why. We know why, like, that's not helpful. That's actually not helpful. We need to get re rooted in why. And again, not just church, but why. Life with God, life with Jesus, matters, and we need to get clear that there is an authentic path that changes lives, that's changed our lives, and the clearer we get on that, and the more we're sharing from that place, and not from desperation, not from shame and guilt, but from Hope for what life with God can be that changes the energy that changes the inner of the conversation. The other thing we have to do is cultivate curiosity, and that's what I try to model in this book by going around interviewing non religious people being like, you know what? I'm not trying to convince you to come to church. I just want to know how you talk to God, where you find belonging, and what you would tell us if we would be quiet and humble enough to listen. It's a different posture entirely, but it's a life giving posture.

Joshua Johnson: 8:45

It is life giving. That's what I love about this book and your book so that you we are actually seeing the stories behind the data, and it's not just data and the facts and that could be so confusing to us. Like, okay, I don't know how to grasp onto any of this. So before we get into, like, some of the things that you found out as you were talking and being curious and reaching out to the nuns and the DUNS, yeah, I want to hear about your story because you were, you were a nun at at one point, spiritually seeking and then finding yourself in church, which you probably didn't expect in your life. That was the last thing I expected. So how, what was your story like as you, you know, as an example for us as somebody that is spiritually seeking, yeah.

Unknown: 9:36

So as of this moment, Joshua, I have spent about half of my life as a nun, n o n e and half of my life as a Christian, so I still feel a lot of my heart still beats for those folk who are out there with some sense of spirit, some sense of longing, but for whatever reasons, they just have not found their way into Christian community, or they used to be in it, and they had to go because it hurt too much for me. I grew up down south. I grew up in a small city in Kentucky, the itty bitty capital city, Frankfurt. My whole family is still there. We were marginally connected with church, which is why, you know, like when, when my cousins were all getting baptized, and I, for whatever reason. And was like, Yeah, I'm gonna pass on this. Nobody went crazy. They were just like, okay, Stephanie's not getting baptized. I mean, they weren't excited about it, but it wasn't the end of the world. And I wasn't, you know, like, Stephanie's going to hell. So there was already some flex in my family, and I thank God for that. There was room for for some questions. But, um, but, yeah. I went to high school in East Tennessee, college in North Carolina, and was always curious about spirituality. Always was a deep. Kid. Was the one who wanted to have deep conversations with everybody, but the moment it got anywhere near church, was like, I'm good. Bye. I could sniff out coercion. I could sniff out exclusion. I sniffed out what to me, just didn't smell like God. And I didn't know a lot about God, but I knew that, that the meanness and the limitations that were presented to me as Christianity. That wasn't God, that wasn't it wasn't Jesus. So later in life, like when I was in my later 20s, after Divinity School, mind you, I went to Harvard Divinity School, got my degree, thought I would be a professor of Buddhism. That's a whole I say it's a whole other story, but it's all a part of the same story. God was talking. God was reaching me. However, God could, yeah, eventually I started meeting Christians who were a different breed of Christian, who were curious, who were humble, who were connected to passionate about liberation theology. They were following somebody that I recognized as Jesus, and increasingly, I wanted to walk with him and with them. And so that was when I got baptized at age 2627 within three years of baptism, I was starting to process toward ordination. It was the grease slick path. Sometimes I wonder if that's why I held out for so long. Because once I was in there was going to be like, there were no breaks. It was just like, let's do it all. Let's give it all to Jesus.

Joshua Johnson: 12:44

I mean, in your story, I think it's probably a lot of what you heard reflected in your interviews is they're looking for authentic faith, people that are actually wanting to embody the ways of Jesus and actually look more like him, and not just care about the institution and the church and the culture that has shaped that, but actually embody the real life of Jesus in what it looks like as a something that We all have to reckon with every church, everybody, every person has to reckon with. Oh, are we actually being shaped more by the culture around us, or are we actually looking like Jesus? Yeah, I mean, it is supposed to be the core of faith. Is we're actually like being disciples of Jesus, like

Unknown: 13:30

I heard that somewhere, brother, I feel like you're not off track when you say that we're called Christians. You know, little little Christs. That's what the early followers were called, people of the way, but they were also little Christs. Yeah, so people should see that in us, and the fact that often they haven't, again, that's not something we should feel shame. And you know, you know, kind of do the cat of nine tails. And aren't we bad? Aren't we bad? Because then we're just still wrapped up in ourselves. But the point is to say, Wow, God, we have said we would follow you, and then not at all. Surprisingly, we haven't, but it's never too late, and we want to come home to you and these millennial and Gen Z, non religious folk, at least for me, like they're ringing the bell calling us back to ourselves and hopefully in relationship with them, but more importantly, in relationship with Jesus.

Joshua Johnson: 15:22

It really is all about like me, my individual life, yes, who I am that's seeped into the church as well. It's really about me. You're talking about a when we shame ourselves. It's actually putting the impetus on ourselves and not actually on God. We're not focusing on on Jesus and trying to follow him. We're actually really focused on ourselves. How do how do we make that shift in the church in a culture that is so me centered, and it is about who I am individually, what's happened to me? I know that there's a lot of difficulty in community and communities of hurt people, and we know that. But besides that, we'll get into some of that. How do we shift that? How do we shift that focus back? Yeah.

Unknown: 16:14

I mean, this is formation. This is This is hardcore formation. Right? But I think it's also remembering what it is to be a counter cultural body. I think that one of the one of the reasons that we have declined to such a degree in the last 4050, years is actually that we became so identified with the culture, you know. And again, especially the mainline churches that we were pretty much, you know, like you couldn't distinguish between churches and kind of civic religion, if you will, and civic life. And so as as civic life, as American culture, became more and more individualistic. You know, a lot of church life has become more and more individualistic. And so you hear, for instance, a lot of especially mainline churches, saying, you know, it's whatever you want. You know, whatever you want to be doing, whatever feels good. You can come to church, but you don't have to. You can do this, but you don't have to. We don't make demands. We don't ask for commitment because we don't want to to impress or to to press up on anybody's life. And I actually, I think it's, you know, it's not surprising that people get excited when they know that, wait, you're asking me for a commitment, but it's because my life might change. It's because my life might change for the better that in a way, people want, and this is where we can kind of use that individualistic bent for good. They want self improvement. They want to know that what they're doing makes a difference, makes a difference in their lives and in the lives of people around them. So the more we can reclaim again Christianity as a way of life, as a way of following one where everything changes. Your life changes, your community changes, and again, for good. It changes because of this power of love that the world couldn't create and the world can't take away. You feel a sense of belonging, at last, because you are beloved in God, and you are beloved in this community of people who see God in you, the more we can present it, not just present, but embody that reality, that authentic calling into community, that's an antidote to this culture of me, that that authentic community, where community matters more than I do, where I give my life for the sake of others. And again, it's the core of the faith. It's, it's, it's the it's the word from the cross that there's something bigger than your life, and people want to hear that. It's, it's refreshing, it's counter cultural. It's not what we've preached because it wasn't comfortable, but, but it is a word of life in in a world where it's like it can't all just be about me, and I got to tell you, Joshua, I heard that from a number of young adults, a number of millennial and Gen Z Americans, who were saying, when everything is about me, I'm exhausted when I have to find all The answers, when I'm the only authority who matters, that's too much to put on me. Like they want something bigger. They want to be a part of something bigger. And we've been hesitant to offer that up. Honestly, we've been hesitant to lean into the bigness of God. We've made God too small. And again, they're not that interested in a small God that they can kind of fit in their pocket. I can take or leave that guy as

Joshua Johnson: 20:04

an anecdotal story we have. You know, someone within our community and our church has a basketball ministry, so a lot of kids from the inner city, the urban core are coming in playing basketball. And you know, he's had so many people say, want to say yes, to follow the ways of Jesus. And it's through, he's been using, through the story of the wise builder and the foolish builder at the end of the sermon on the mount. And he's like, you know, the wise builder builds his house on the rock, says he hears the words of Jesus, and he actually puts them into practice. And do you want to build your house on the rock put the words of Jesus into practice together in community? And so many people are like, yes. And he's like, Okay, do you actually realize, like, what you're committing to, this is a commitment, like, and so let's ask this again. Do you want to do this? And they're like, yes. I was like, Okay, let's do it again. Like, this third time. Like, this is like a commitment to hear the words of Jesus, put them into practice, doing it with community. And so many people are there. I you know, we're starting to find people are hungry for that. Like, there's something that. I could actually feel like my house is on a rock and it's not shifting sand. Like, yeah, I want to do that. I want to feel rooted. What were you hearing as you talk to the nuns and dones, what are their questions? Where are they finding spirituality and God and community as they're seeking outside of the walls of church,

Unknown: 21:38

again, a lot of it we know intuitively, but it was extraordinary to hear them telling their stories, stories of how they meet the sacred, the mystery, the ultimate God, Spirit in nature. There was a deeper understanding of that. Then I gave them credit for it. Like folks descriptions of how they meet God in nature, how they meet God in intimate relationship, how they meet God in in silence, how they meet God in I'm like, kind of like going through even what they were doing with me, like all of these sources of spiritual connection and depth that and they're finding that for themselves. They're reading books, you know, that are spiritual books, but they're reading maybe by themselves. You know, I heard a lot of spiritual energy. I heard a lot of spiritual engagement. It's not surprising. You can you can go into the spiritual marketplace. It's incredibly robust. And you can find pathways. You can find practices. You can put together. I call it your own, like bespoke bento box, if you will. We're like, Oh, I like this piece with this piece, with this piece, and then I want that one and that one. And now I've assembled my box. So that's actually not that difficult for folks. What's hard, and this is the the the it was tough to hear from them, and tough for them to share, I think was, where are you finding community and belonging? That a lot of millennial and Gen Z folk, and again, the data bears this out, but to hear it was heartbreaking how hard it is for them to find community, how hard it is, you know, folks were saying, including a number of them who used to be a part of a religious community, part of Christian community. They're like, you know, I don't miss church because of the, you know, the rules, the faith, the whatever I can talk to God, fine outside. But community, I miss that. I miss feeling like I belonged somewhere. I missed feeling like I could land somewhere. I was known, I was loved, regardless of what I did. I don't know where to find that now, and the desperation, the quiet. There were some of these interviews, I left and I was crying, Joshua, I had to hold it together. Some of these interviews, they were crying as they were sharing with me. So, so it's hard to find community, and they're finding it. They're forming it in kind of found sort of family of choice. You know, they're finding it. One person described how he and some of his friends formed something they called the village, and it's actually a number of friends who grew up in churches and are not a part of church now, so they're doing it for themselves in something they call a village. And they get together, they pray with each other, they share what's going on in their lives. But he said, and this is a quote from him, like, we know we don't have to play church. So they've kind of formed it for themselves. A lot of folk find it in kind of fitness communities. Maybe they're doing yoga together, maybe they're doing meditation together. Maybe they're running together. Run clubs, and again, sometimes run clubs where, you know, they're like, oh, yeah, we have a thread, and we pray for each other. I'm like, what you pray with your running buddies? They're like, Sure, they have folk who are like, having dinners in their community, and some are finding it in alternative worship communities, there's a really fascinating group called it's a secular Sunday group, and they gather across America and actually in the UK as well. And they're very consciously not religious. They're secular. A lot of their members are atheist, agnostics, but they want community, and so they get together, they sing songs that are positive. They have greeters, they have food, they have a message, like all of this stuff. What they don't have is dogma. What they don't have is is the weight of all of that tradition. So folk are finding ways of forming community. It's hard out there to do this by yourself, but honestly, for a lot of them, they've been so. Affected by church, or they just really, they honestly, don't believe a lot of what we've been putting out there as the essentials of faith. So they're tired of pretending, and they need to do this on their own. Or they feel like they do.

Joshua Johnson: 27:33

I mean, that's a difficult place for anybody to be is trying to find it and do it on your own. Yeah, so is there something? Then, if we're we're seeing this, it's hard to find community. That group in Atlanta that's doing dinners together the table seems really important to the Yeah, the Christian faith of like, doing something around the table, like, hey, the Eucharist is really important, right? The Communion is important, but the table itself is also important. That we're having faith around tables. Is there something with the table that makes it feel more authentic, real, accessible? What is it about the table? For some of these people that you were talking to,

Unknown: 28:18

Jesus was on to so much. He he got so much, and he understood that something happens for people when they gather, you know, four meals when they just come together. And so it's not at all surprising, you know, that these college students were sharing with me about leaving religion but forming these almost like collectives, where they can share life. You know, people, people need to share life with each other, and that does happen like there's it's a physical it's embodied when we come through the tables. I think what people don't necessarily crave is being told you have to come to the table in these ways, believing these particular things, and so they want, they need some of that flexibility to have conversation at the table and not just be told what to do at the table. You know that they they want to, yeah, they want to be taken seriously. Who doesn't they want their questions to be honored? Who doesn't? A lot of what they were asking for to me, like made sense. There were four prophecies, in fact, that they shared with me. Can I? Can I

Joshua Johnson: 29:33

just share these? Yeah, we're gonna get into them in just a minute. So yeah, let's do it. Let's do it. Let's do

Unknown: 29:41

it in a way. I feel like, like there's, like there's, I feel like I got the chance to sort of sit with them and sit with each of these, you know, millennial and Gen Z nuns and dones, and to hear this honest word from them. It was like, Why can't you all get this? I felt them. I was like crying out to me like and my response was, you're not wrong. You're not wrong. About this. They were trying to get us to understand in a way, like there's a first prophecy that I heard from them, which was, will the real Christians please stand up that they sense. They know, they see. They're terrified of white Christo nationalism. They're terrified that Christianity has been co opted, abused by people who have a political agenda but nothing to do with Jesus, where they want to use the structures and the symbols of Christianity in order to hurt people, to control people, to dominate the culture. They see this, and their question of me and of us is, where are the real Christians? We know that there's a word that you all have been given, but we don't hear you preaching it. We see you hanging out, taking care of your own, not sharing the word that you've been given. And in this moment, we need to hear from you. We need to hear from real Christians.

Joshua Johnson: 31:12

I've been wrestling with this. I want to, I want to dive into that, because one of the things is, is I know that if I, if I'm going to do this podcast, and I am going to be known about what I am against, I'm going to get more traction than what I'm trying to do. Is before, yes, the embodiment of Jesus in culture and like this is what I'm trying to do. But because of that, there's not as much traction, because people we live in an outrage attention economy, that when you see those things, you're going to get more attention. For some reason, I think that's why people are using this Christianity for their political gains, because they can yell it and scream it and get more attention than others. Yeah, so for the people, the real Christians, that are actually trying to stand up, and I see so many of them that are being faithful, trying to follow Jesus in like extraordinary ways that are out, you know, protesting outside of i. Facilities that are on out on the street, are feeding people that are hungry, that are, you know, visiting the prisoners, like the things that Jesus called us to do. How do we get that more visible, to say that here is the authentic community? Like, how do we do it?

Unknown: 32:40

Oh, well, the the response to that prophecy, like, for each of these prophecies, to me, like, there's I, I did a lot of listening and talking with colleagues and folk who were out on the street doing this ministry. And the thing, the place where we landed was we've got to become a Jesus movement, which means, so if the question, if the prophecy is, where are the real Christians? The answer for us is, Okay, put your big boy, big girl, big person pants on, and become a Jesus movement. So often Joshua, when we are out there protesting at detention centers, so often when we're out there feeding the hungry. We're doing it with the cross hidden. We're doing it with Jesus hidden because we almost don't want to be associated with Christianity. For the record, this is one of the main reasons for the decline of Christianity. For the numbers, is because a lot of more progressive, liberal, even moderate Christians stopped being associated with Christianity because they're like, I don't want to be like the Religious Right. I don't want to be anything to do with that. And so we've disaffiliated from our own faith brother. So what does it take? What it takes is standing up like I'm gonna grab something, and I know that most folk folk are listening, but just stay with me. This is right. It's right here I'm grabbing something from I've been in the no kings marches, and I carry this sign. What does it say?

Joshua Johnson: 34:18

Joshua Jesus was woke exactly.

Unknown: 34:23

You would be amazed at the response, at the energy that swirls around when I walk on the street. You know, with 1000s and 1000s and 1000s of New Yorkers, so many people want to take a picture with me. They want to ask me, is that sign what I think it is. And they're kind of bold. You know, folks are like, that's right now. We can get into the weeds around wokeness and whatever. But the point is that that if compassion is wrong, I don't, I don't want to be right. That that all the things that people are or that the right is poo pooing, right now I'm like, that's what's anti Christian. So we need to be even more bold in saying, this is where Jesus stood. This is what Jesus said. This is how Jesus lived, and we're not going to get it perfect, but we sure are going to try to follow Him, and we're going to be a movement with her. We need to be vocal about that. We need to be unapologetic about that. We need to reclaim Christianity, and I feel that so much more passionately, having spoken to these nuns and dones, they have fueled my conviction around going public as a Christian. We need to be we need to be out there, and we need to be unapologetic and attach Jesus's name to what we do when we're out there loving in this world.

Joshua Johnson: 35:56

That's so good. We operate out of assumptions all the time. And so when someone says the word Christian, they're going to think a certain way, because they assume this is what I was raised in, or this is what I've seen, or I haven't heard really anything, but I assume it's this. And so you actually have to be really explicit. So that's really good. That's really, really good. What are the other prophecies that came out of your conversations with nones and dones.

Unknown: 36:22

Another prophecy from them was, can you please stop making idols of your buildings, your institutions, your rules, your dogma? Just enough of the idols again. They see how we have built up our own structures get all tangled up in protecting what's ours. And of course, I'm talking about buildings, but also, just about like our policies. Oh, my goodness, the way we we build up governance structures, we build up coordination processes, and people who are watching, they're like, Wow, you're so much more concerned about your structures and processes than you are about community or God. And like, they're not wrong. And I. Lack of capacity to change the fact that we cling to those things once we've formed them. You know, we cling to those buildings. We cling to those structures, and we'll do anything to maintain them that need to maintain institution, maintain structures. We look desperate. We look like we're clinging to idols. And so they called us on that. The response in my mind and what I heard and what we've I think the reminder we need, the response to that prophecy is, wait, wait, wait. Our institutions can innovate. We can change. Now. Movements need some kind of institution. They need some way of getting solid and sustaining. That's true. A movement just just kind of rolling along by itself, like you don't hear a lot of a lot about those movements. So the Jesus movement also needs to have some feet. It needs to it needs to have roots. But institutions can innovate, so folks need to see us being able to flex and to embrace change and to embrace the people who represent change, instead of trying to get everybody in lockstep in our institutions and get everybody like we'll only ordain you once you've told us that you are going to be a strong maintainer of what we have already built. We need to be ordaining people who not want to blow it all up, but who understand that there are a lot of ways to grow to love, to serve, to build. We need to radiate that capacity for innovation, and we need to embrace it so. So the prophecy is, stop idolizing, and the response is, go innovate.

Joshua Johnson: 39:09

So if you're looking at people inside the church, inside the institution, they want to make sure that we're holding on to the tenants of the faith of Christianity, yeah, and we don't innovate too far. I mean, there's a balance that, I think, that you get so far progressive, you get post progressive into a place of sometimes conservativism is more progressive than progressivism at some point, like, that's like, that's countercultural, that is, you know, that's something so where's the balance there of innovation and then holding on to, like, the the real tenants of what it looks like to follow Jesus in community.

Unknown: 39:54

I mean, honestly, I think this is where it comes back to that the importance of being rooted as a Jesus movement. You know that, that if we know those beatitude values, if we know like at least in the Episcopal Church, we have something we call the baptismal covenant. And it's five commitments that everybody who's baptized, every every baptized person makes these five commitments we make, these five promises, you know. We say, I'm going to challenge myself here, you know. But you know, and their commitments to turning from the way of sin, kind of self absorption and toward God, it's a commitment to being in prayer and in community and in worship on a regular basis. It's a commitment to sharing the Word of God in in how we live and what we say, proclaiming the good news. It's a commitment to recognizing God in every person we meet and honoring God in every person we meet, and it's a commitment to justice and peace and creating a world where everybody can flourish as a child of God, those are the five promises we make as Episcopalians. If I am living into those five commitments, the form of my worship should not necessarily matter as much as honestly it does to a lot of our churches. So many churches are more involved in policing liturgy, policing worship and those five promises that I just told you about. You know, we say them every, you know, every service of baptism, but we don't really say it much more. We should flip that. We should flip it so that it's about living the way of Jesus and liturgy and structure and building and everything else serve the movement of God's people, not the other way around. So that, to me, is the way the balance should work.

Joshua Johnson: 41:59

Amen, amen, let's do that. That's great. So a couple of you had two more prophecies.

Unknown: 42:09

What? Indeed, I love these. I feel like I'm representing their prophecies out the world. So I feel like I'm a messenger on their behalf. You know, these nones and dones said to me. Go meet the God who is waiting outside. Just go. We already talked to God outside. We think you all talk to God outside, but you act like God is only inside this building, and we know better. So go, go meet God outside. And again, I'm like, they're not wrong, dude, they're not wrong. Lots of us can tell stories about our most spiritually lively experiences, and the story has something to do with engaging in nature. The story often is something that happened outside of church. And yet, when we when we are looking for where is God, we're often trying to put God back inside the box. So I think the response to that prophecy is to go, go and explore and create authentic Christian expressions outside the walls of church. And let's be clear, lots of us were doing this during pandemic. Am I right? We were out there because we had to be. We were in the parking lot, we were in the churchyard. We were wherever we had to be in order to breathe safely and still worship. And then what happened when the doors opened? We went back inside. Most of our churches, lots of our churches, went back inside. So I hear this prophecy telling us go back outside. Like that service you were doing in the parking lot. Why did you stop? Like what was happening out there? Something really wonderful was happening. Your neighbors saw you, but you were also engaging in a different way. You were loosening up. You were making room for the spirit. And it showed so, you know, I've, I in the book, I offer examples of, you know, how folk are doing this at church camps. Like church camps should be not just a place that the kids go. We should all be reconnecting with God in nature, using those camps. Because a lot of those camps are dying, go reclaim them. You know, we should be. Everybody complains about, oh, all the kids are at soccer practice on Sundays instead of coming to church. Like, well, why can't church go to the soccer field? I want to understand why, like you send a lot of our churches at the end of worship. We have the communion kit and we send someone to the hospital with it. We send someone to the home of shut ins with it. Send somebody out with that kit to the soccer field. Go so find ways of engaging the God who is already waiting outside. It doesn't diminish church. It expands church. It expands what it is for us to be the body of Christ.

Joshua Johnson: 45:02

How do institutions give permission for that? I think that's where some people, they don't think they have permission. So how do we give permission and say, Go.

Unknown: 45:15

I mean, again, the permission is already there. You know, like most of our churches, you know, got permission to do church outside, to take church to all of these other places. We got that during pandemic. In most cases, that hasn't been revoked. We've just gotten out of the habit because it was something we took up out of necessity. What I would like to suggest is that we are, let's, let's go back to seeing this as a necessity, to understanding that God is so active out side. God always has been. It's in the word of Scripture. It's in our own experiences. Personally, God is shaking the tree saying to us, I'm here, I'm here. Come talk to me out here. And we think, Well, I can only do that when I'm going for a run, but I can't bring church with me out here. Ish, can church can go and meet you out there. Church can go and, you know, we can have holy hikes. Well, we can go and take a hike and then have have Eucharist on the hilltop. How extraordinary is that? You know, the permissions are all there. I think What's hard is that for a lot of us, who are church professionals, we have been trained in doing church inside, inside the building, inside the structures, we need to get out of our own heads. We need to get out of the place where we have mastery, to a place where actually maybe we realize God is more in charge, which is a good thing. All right. One last Yeah, one last prophecy, please, please, please. They said, Would you? Would you stop with the fake, stop with the obligatory and form loving, embodied communities that welcome our whole authentic selves, people? Want to be real. And when they see us being real, they're in they're drawing. When they see the Holy Spirit at work, they can sniff her out and they want more. So to me, the like, the best way to encapsulate this as like, what's the response to that prophecy? What I say is, let's dance, dance with the spirit, but also let's dance like, let's get out of our own way. Let's stop having to have it perfect. Let's, you know, let's stop scripting everything. And instead, let's dance, let's, let's allow the Spirit to surprise us, and let's allow real community to form. I often sing, in fact, almost always, like if you if I preach, I start out with a song. And the reason why I do that is because when I sing first, and especially if I invite people to sing with me. It's a song that's not in the book. There's no music in front of people. We're just singing. There is a way that we form a community, even just with like a couple of lines of a chant, singing together, it breaks through a wall, and we are being real together. If I preach into that space, it is a completely different sermon. I feel different. The community feels different. It feels like an actual community. So when I say let's dance, what I really mean is, let's take down the walls, let's, let's, let's actually glory and connecting with one another authentically, and not having it all figured out. Let's move together and let's move with the Spirit. The churches that are growing right now are often the church is rooted in the Holy Spirit. They're the Pentecostals, the Assemblies of God is the one of the only denominations, if you will, the only one that's growing right now, growing robustly over the last decade or more, Assemblies of God. And it's, I believe it's because this is a tradition. This is a faith rooted in the Holy Spirit, rooted in movement. The Pentecostal churches were founded Aha, with black people in LA a Souza Street Revival, love and so even when you're in a white LED Pentecostal church, there's something about that movement of the spirit, the way that oppressed people's black folk, folk who needed Jesus like they need water, that authentic need for God, that authentic reach for God, that authenticity that that allowing God to touch and change you and then testifying about it, that's where the life is.

Joshua Johnson: 50:14

I was interviewing somebody. They talked about a 12th century monk that said that you believe that the first millennium of Christianity was the father, the second millennium was about the Son, and the third which we're about to enter we're entering now is the spirit, yeah, and it kind of like that actually named something for me that I kind of been like, been feeling Like, it feels like the age of the spirit, like, like, we need to get outside. We need to, like, move. We need to dance. We need we need to play. We need to follow the leading of the Spirit in ways where we've been a little bit more, you know, structured and dogmatic and institutional. Now it feels like it's scarier, right? Because it's more wild than it ever has been before. But it, I don't know, for me, just like the feel of it feels like, oh, that may be right. There may be something to do with the spirit wildness outside dancing that actually is important

Unknown: 51:18

well, and doesn't that bring us full circle, in a way, to that valley of the dry bones? Know that? You know that there's Ezekiel prophesying, and God is saying, Prophesy breath, in other words, Prophesy spirit, Prophesy life back into these bones. And what happens? You know, they start to come together. Those bones start kind of knitting back together. There's ligaments, there's flesh. Fleshiness comes back to the bones. There's breath in the bones, and they rise up and and they they are an army. They are a movement for God. And I feel like, if we open to that spirit, if we rise up in this way, if we ask God to breathe that fresh spirit into our dry bones, acknowledge that these bones are dry, but then say, God, we know it doesn't have to be that way. We know that you will always, always give your spirit if we ask and then just say. Right? We hear the nones and dones. We hear our own deepest longings, and we know we need you, God, so please just come in, come in and fill us and raise us from this valley into new life, onto the higher places, so that we can proclaim your love. That's the calling. That's a moment. Amen.

Joshua Johnson: 52:41

Amen, beautiful church tomorrow. Let's do that. Let's do that. Amen. Couple really quick questions here at the end for you, Stephanie, one, if you go back to your 21 year old self, what advice

Unknown: 52:54

would you give? I would say to her, you're not wrong. A lot of a lot of what you see in church, a lot of the reasons you were hanging out on the edge and question Christianity, you are not wrong, kiddo, and there's more, don't give up. Don't give up on on Jesus. Don't give up on this crusty old, nasty structure. There is a life that is possible here. Don't give up on it, please.

Joshua Johnson: 53:27

So good. Anything you've been reading or watching lately, you could recommend, Oh,

Unknown: 53:37

I love pop culture and so, yeah, a lot of what I'm watching and reading, honestly, my husband and I just started watching a new show last night. It's called, I think you should leave Tim Robinson. I think is the guy it is. It is an entry into the utterly absurd. So I mean, like you're asking, I'm telling you, it is so completely absurd. But honestly, when I'm watching it, part of what I'm seeing, I feel like, like, oh, so this is how a lot of younger folk are like, are inhabiting, this is the world they're inhabiting, where it's just, it's, it's, it's unhinged in a way. So it's, it's a good lesson for me, honestly, around Oh, wow, this is how unhinged things can get. I'm also watching The Witcher, which is, I mean, it's, it's what it sounds like, I mean, so it's kind of that sci fi fantasy sort of thing. And because I'm curious too about how are people again, how are people reading enchantment into this world and telling those stories, and where does church even begin to enter into that conversation? So I'm really curious about that.

Joshua Johnson: 54:55

Stephanie, this book, church tomorrow is out. Will be out anywhere books are sold. You go and get it where

Unknown: 55:03

books are sold. If you pre order it right now, you'll you'll have it within within days and and the official launch is December the second, and I'll be traveling the country, touring with this book for the first half of 2026 so maybe we can continue the conversation in person. Yeah, so

Joshua Johnson: 55:22

let's continue the conversation. Where can people connect with you? Maybe find out about where you're going to be and where would you like to point people to?

Unknown: 55:30

I point folks to my website. It's Stephanie spellers.com/church, tomorrow. Perfect. There you go. So just, I actually was just updating the book tour events schedule yesterday, so, but it's growing all the time, and I'd love to you know, you write a book hoping to start a conversation. Yeah, you don't write a book just to heal yourself. Think. So I really look forward to continuing. And I'm so grateful to have had this conversation with you,

Joshua Johnson: 56:03

yes, and I with you. And this is a perfect book for a conversation and to start a conversation. So I just want everybody to go and get it, then to then sit with it. Sit with these questions, sit with these prophecies, and just wrestle with it. What does it look like in your own community and with the people around you. So Stephanie, this was fantastic. Thank you so much. Thank you

Unknown: 56:26

so much. God bless. God bless. The revolution. Amen. You. You.