Shifting Culture
On Shifting Culture we have conversations at the intersection of faith, culture, justice, and the way of Jesus. Hosted by Joshua Johnson, this podcast features long-form conversations with authors, theologians, artists, and cultural thinkers to trace how embodied love, courage, and creative faithfulness offer a culture of real healing and hope.
Shifting Culture
Ep. 383 Winfield Bevins - How Beauty Will Save the World
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
In this episode, I sit down with Winfield Bevins to talk about beauty and why it matters for everyday life, the church, and spiritual formation. We discuss his book How Beauty Will Save the World and how beauty shapes attention, formation, and the way we live, work, and follow Jesus. Winfield shares his own story, including seasons of burnout and vocational transition, and how art and creativity became central to his faith and calling. We talk about creativity beyond the arts, the pace of modern life, and how beauty helps form us spiritually, reorient our desires, and shape communities of faith. This is a grounded conversation about renewal, formation, and learning to see the world with care and hope.
Winfield Bevins is an internationally recognized author, artist, and the founding director of Creo Arts, which is a non-profit that exists to bring beauty, goodness, and truth to the world through the arts. Winfield is also artist-in-residence at Asbury Theological Seminary where he champions the integration of art, theology, and mission. Over the past decade, he has helped start numerous initiatives and academic programs that have trained leaders from around the world. He is the author of several books, including, How Beauty Will Save the World: Recovering the Power of the Arts for the Christian Life.
Winfield's Book:
How Beauty Will Save the World
Winfield's Recommendation:
Connect with Joshua: jjohnson@shiftingculturepodcast.com
Go to www.shiftingculturepodcast.com to interact and donate. Every donation helps to produce more podcasts for you to enjoy.
Follow on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Threads, Bluesky or YouTube
Consider Giving to the podcast and to the ministry that my wife and I do around the world. Just click on the support the show link below
Join artists & creatives at the 5th Let the Art Speak conference — a celebration of hope.
We miss the miracles. We miss the small miracles that are every day, all around the beauty that is already there so many people are focused on how bad their life is if we begin to look
Joshua Johnson:Josh. Hello and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create and the impact we can make. We long to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host. Joshua Johnson, in this episode, I talk with Winfield Bevins about beauty and why it matters in real life. We talk about his book How Beauty will save the world, and the idea that beauty is not extra or optional, but essential to how we live, to how we work and pay attention. Winfield shares his own story and how arts and creativity shaped his faith, his vocation and the direction of his life. We talk about burnout and speed and the ways we lose ourselves when everything becomes efficient and functional. We explore how beauty helps us slow down, become present and recover a sense of meaning. We also talk about creativity, beyond the arts, what it means to make a life that reflects care and intention and how beauty shows up in ordinary work, relationships and communities. We also talk about the church's relationship to the arts and how that relationship has been lost or neglected over time. We discuss what it looks like for churches to reimagine their spaces, their practices and their engagement with culture through beauty. Winfield explains how art opens people to presence and attention and meaning and why things matter for spiritual formation and mission. This is a conversation about renewal and attention. It's about learning to see again. It's about bringing beauty into a world that often feels fractured and exhausted and choosing to live in a way that points toward hope. So join us. Here is my conversation with Winfield. Bevans, Winfield, welcome to shifting culture. Excited to have you on.
Unknown:Thanks for joining me. Yeah, it's great to be here with you. Thanks for having me.
Joshua Johnson:We're going to talk today about how Beauty will save the world and your your venture of like bringing the arts and church and mission and the beauty of God into the world. When you talk about beauty, what are you thinking? What is beauty and how do you think Beauty will save the world?
Unknown:That's kind of the million dollar question. And like you know, beauty is notoriously hard to define, you know. So you talk to a million people, they're going to give you different answers. I think ultimately, beauty true. Beauty points to the one who is beautiful, good and true, which is Jesus Christ, the Triune Godhead. God is God the Father is the creator, the great artist of everything that is beautiful that we see in the world, and we are created as CO creators to join in that mission that God originally created, the world out of which is beauty and beauty just really simply, I think beauty reflects, gives us glimmers of the of the beauty of God. It points us toward the transcendence and towards something else that we're longing for that we might not even know what it is, which ultimately is God. So I did say it was notoriously hard to define. So I know I threw a bunch of terms and things in there, but yeah,
Joshua Johnson:that's perfect in your book. You said that beauty saved your life twice. How did beauty save your life? What was that for you?
Unknown:Yeah, I mean, really, you know, again, that's kind of a little tongue in cheek, but yeah, I mean, the Lord has used beauty on numerous occasions to save me, and is still saving me. You know, just in a real practical example, when I was a teenager, got mixed up and ended up going to an alternative school, got kicked out of school and went to an alternative school and had an A high school art teacher who was a professor at the University of Tennessee, taught me how to paint. And it was art, it was beauty, it was creating that gave me hope and healing and pointed me to the light. And ultimately, I came to faith at 19. And I look back on that experience, I think it wasn't art that saved me, it wasn't beauty necessarily that saved me, but it was, it was the power of the arts that pointed me toward the one who did save me, which is Jesus Christ. And I think that's what the arts have the power to do, to point us beyond ourselves to the one who is beautiful. You know, more recently, a few years ago, you know, I had led a big program at one of the world's largest seminaries. Was traveling the world was kind of. Doing all this stuff, and kind of hit a wall, hit burnout, if you will. And I had this experience. I got covid, you know, I talk about it in the book, but I was laying in bed, and, you know, had had the long covid where, you know, brain fog, all this stuff, and this piano concerto came on, and it was like I heard the music for the first time in my life. And the Lord used this secular piano, contemporary piano song called Blue Bird. And it was, it was like the Lord just used this to kind of reorient me to being present, to his presence in and through all things, in my own family, my home, and God really used that to kind of reorient my life around slowing down, to be present, to look, to listen and to see the beauty that's all around us. And so those are just two examples of how beauty has saved me, and really is saving me still.
Joshua Johnson:You know, as you look back on your life, you've had different vocations, purpose in your life as a church planter, church leader, like church multiplication leader, seminary, you're you're doing this, this arts ministry at the moment. How has beauty actually, then shaped some of your purpose all throughout even in a different vocation that you've had?
Unknown:That's a great question. Again, it's not like, you know, I think some people when I, when I left the seminary to kind of start Creo arts as a nonprofit arts organization. In many ways, everything I've ever done is brought me to this moment, and it's a convergence. Rather than, you know, Winfield having a midlife crisis, this actually is the fulfillment of who God has created me to be. So I've, you know, planted churches, I've created networks. I've worked with church leaders around the world to create innovative, strategic programs to that have planted 1000s of churches around the world. And all of that has come out of a place of creativity and innovation and really out of a heart of an artist. So I like to kind of describe myself. This isn't on my official bio, but as an apostolic artist, I think everything the Lord has ever done in and through me has had this apostolic, missional, outward thrust to help the church and Christians engage culture context, but in a way that thinks innovatively and creatively. And I'm dreaming up my next book is going to be lead like an artist, like, how do we help leaders and church leaders think like an artist and creatively and see the world and mission through the eyes of a child. I think this is type of stuff that, you know, Jesus's ministry was highly creative.
Joshua Johnson:And I mean, that's beautiful for you, to be able to see the thread of beauty in in different vocations and in church life, the church that I'm a part of, our name is Nava, which means bring home and make beautiful. It is, it is a the mission that God has given us. He gave us the name. We changed our name to this because he specifically said, This is who you are. The mission is, then, is to beautify the world through, you know, through Christ, yes. And so what do you think that looks like with a church like? I mean, a lot of people could think about the arts and creativity, and, you know, we know that side, but how do we merge that into church life, and what we're doing with the church?
Unknown:Yeah, I love that. And, you know, I'd love to have a side conversation about that. So a lot of what we're really doing with Creo Arts is we're on one level. We're supporting Christian artists. We're helping to commission come alongside artists, but we're working with building bridges and partnering with artists, patrons and churches and local communities, to bring the power of the arts to communities, to again, point people to the one who's beautiful, good and true, to bring beauty to the world and all of its expressions. And one of the sub themes of the book is, this is not a book. It is a book for artists, but it's actually not a book for artists. It's a book for the rest of us. It's a book for pastors. It's a book for lawyers. It's a book for stay at home moms. Who are, you know, breastfeeding or raising, you know children and like, how can you make whatever you do beautiful? How can you bring beauty to whatever your vocation is, whatever community you're in? How, more specifically, how can you make your life a work of art? And I think these are the type of things that the church is led with the truth, which, yes, we need the truth, but there's this historic understanding of beauty, goodness and truth as the three transcendentals. And so what if? We led with beauty. What If the Church was known as a place of beauty and reflection of glory through everything that we did that opened people's hearts and minds to the truth, and I think in the times in which we're living, is so much of so much of how the church has led in culture has been in a way that is not beautiful, in a way that engages arguments or getting caught up in political divisions. And I think we begin with beauty because it opens people's hearts, minds and imaginations, to the truth and the goodness of God. It's not an either or. This isn't watering down the gospel, it's actually preparing people's hearts for that and and so, you know, one example, I share a lot of examples through the book of non artists that are kind of thinking this way of creatively engaging their cultures. You know. One is a young man who, you know, we I tell the book is full of stories, you know. So one example is a young artist who went, who's working with his dad in a small town in Arkansas. They bought, like, an old hardware store that was been dilapidated, you know, it's a tiny little town, and they've just turned this into, like a community art center, where they're just, you know, they're making leather works and they're putting people to work, and it's this creative way of trying to engage their community with beauty. And you know, this young man was a student at Asbury, and was really one of our artists, and he actually introduced me to the Jewish concept of Tekken Olam, which is repair the world, which is another way of kind of like the name of your church is like, hey, we want to make the world beautiful, and that might look different in different ways, but how can we repair and bring beauty to broken places? That's really what we're talking about is, you know, not art for art's sake. We're talking about bringing beauty, whether it's feeding the homeless, whether it's uplifting people's hearts and minds and communities that wouldn't necessarily think in a way that's artistic, to maybe coming alongside pastors and church leaders, to think outside of old paradigms and to begin to see the world in living color, as opposed to black and white.
Joshua Johnson:Your book opens with the story of the Bosnian cellist who played amid the ruins of war, like, Why? Why that story to get us going? And what does that tell us about the power of beauty in the face of brokenness that you've just been talking about?
Unknown:Yeah, when I first heard about that story, I was just so compelled. And you know, whether or not he was a Christian, I don't think really matters here in the midst of war and atrocities and unbelievable ugliness. Here's this professional cellist that, in the midst of bombs flying and bullets, you know, shooting back and forth, shows up in the middle of the rubble in his black tuxedo and begins to just play the cello. In the midst of war, and people were stunned, you know, the bullets stopped flying. People like, laid down their guns and were like, What is going on here? And he would just do this random. People didn't know where he was going to show up. And throughout the war, he would just show up and just begin to play and bring beauty to this ugly, horrible mess. And what an inspiration for the rest of us. So imagine if Christians put their lives on the line to bring hope, healing, beauty to the rubble of the world in which we live in. And so many times it's kind of like, you know, so many Christians are like doomsday thinkers, and I don't know, you know, no man knows the time or the hour. The Bible says, right, all I can do is do whatever I can to bring beauty, hope and healing to the world. And in doing so, my prayer and hope is that that's going to point people to the one that is beautiful, good and true. So I think the story is actually a modern day parable, or what the church should be doing in the world. We should we? Yes, we do live in a broken, fallen world. Man, it is a mess. You know, we don't need to, you know, recount all the stuff that's happening in the shifting culture, but it's kind of the best of times and the worst of times. I think oftentimes we focus on the worst while forgetting that we've got the best news, the good news of the gospel, which is beautiful. And what if we matched how we present that, how we package it, how we live our lives in a way that is artistic and beautiful, that actually is winsome, that opens people's hearts and minds
Joshua Johnson:to say that there was nothing beautiful about the cross except the power of sacrificial love. So what is that paradox for us? How does that redefine what Christians. Be when they talk about beauty, yeah.
Unknown:I mean, the beauty of the cross is that out of brokenness, out of shame, out of darkness, God brings hope, healing light. And I think that again is our calling is to, you know, again, somehow we have to, as Christians in today's world, somehow we got to get our eyes back on the hope of the gospel. As you begin to it's kind of like Jesus says in Matthew 13, he says to you, has been shown the mysteries of the kingdom. Blessed are your eyes that see and your ears that hear. For even the prophets long for this, but their eyes don't see and hear. And I think that there is a reawakening, if you will. I think we're in the midst of a renewal movement that I'm seeing and encountering all across the United States, where artists, Christians, patrons, churches, are really beginning to open their hearts and their minds to how can they bring beauty into the world? You know, I recently wrote a piece for Christianity day, for article that'll come out, I think, this coming year, on Renaissance or renewal question mark. And it's kind of reflections on the state of the church in the arts, or Christianity in the arts. And it's kind of like, I think we're in a renaissance of sorts, but, but more importantly, I think it's a renewal, and I think if we have eyes to see it, and this, this is what I mean, is, I think oftentimes Christians, they're veiled to these realities that are God's actually raising up and doing beautiful things all around us, if we only have eyes to see it, and if, if that can re enliven the hope and the message of the gospel, of how we share that to reach this new generation. Man, I vote yes, and I want to be a part of that movement. I want to be a part of the movement that Jesus came to bring hope, light and healing to the world. I want to be a part of that. And I think this next generation. That's what they're hungry and they're longing for,
Joshua Johnson:as you were at Asbury. I know that, you know, during the Asbury outpouring there, there was a moment of for Creole Arts at the same time, and I think that might be reminiscent of what you're talking about here, is that there is a new renaissance and renewal. And out of that renewal, out of that outpouring, there comes like the arts as well. Can you just take us into some of that for you in the moment and just being a part of that? And then, how did the arts emerge for you out of it?
Unknown:I mean, it's a real, personal, sacred moment for me, in which I knew the Lord was calling me start Creo arts. We had applied for the nonprofit status. I didn't know how I was going to make this transition. I didn't know how it was going to leap from being the director of this program and blah, blah, blah, and all of a sudden, the Asbury revival hit, and literally, the seminary and the university are side by side, and we got our IRS letter of approval during the first week of the Asbury revival, and I took that letter and laid it on the altar and said, All right, Lord, this is yours. I am yours. I'm just a brush in your hands. You know, I'm just and literally, a few weeks after the revival, I had a guy who had just met called me up and said, The Lord told me to pay your salary for a year, take a step of faith. And literally, in the last three years, it's been mirac I've seen signs and wonders. I've seen unbelievable things of God's favor and blessings upon what he's doing in and through the arts. You know, in in close to three years, we've got, like, I don't even know how many, like five staff members we got a gallery we've got, we're working in 15 states with dozens of artists and churches from every denomination and background that are all kind of answering this call to bring beauty to their communities, and it looks different in different places, but there's the same heart for renewal, the same passion for reaching the next generation. So this isn't just a good idea for me. This isn't just a career shift. This is a serious sense of calling in which I'm all in. I mean, there's no backup plan. This is, this is the thing, man,
Joshua Johnson:I'm with you in it. You know, I transitioned out of leading a missions organization the end of last year into doing this full time and wanting to bring the arts and creativity to the world. And like, this is, I'm in, I don't know I'm, trusting God will provide for it. We'll see. But this is I like I do believe it is time for the artists to step like this. I've just felt that shift and transition personally in my life as well, and seeing what is happening around the world as. Artists and prophets are standing up in the midst of this ugliness of the world, brokenness of the world, and bringing about beauty and renewal. You mentioned briefly that you think that there's a new renaissance. You think it's more of a renewal. Can you contrast it from back in the Renaissance period of what was happening into, what do you think that God is doing through the arts today that's different than the Renaissance period in the past?
Unknown:Yeah, again, you know, you think of like the High Renaissance is like high art, you know. And you know, integration into, you know, a lot of the funding of the art was integrated with, you know, political, governmental money. That's it's high societal but a real Renaissance, as it takes root, is broad. It affects every sector of society. And I think there are elements of that to this, where there's again a renaissance within Christianity of once again re engaging culture and saying we need to have good Christian thinkers involved in politics science, in every sphere of society, And that absolutely includes the arts. It includes film, theater, all these expressions. And when we think of the Renaissance, the church was one of the major patron of the arts. And one of the cool things that I'm seeing is churches re engaging the arts with with budgets, actually commissioning. This past year, I was commissioned to paint a prayer chapel in Los Angeles, spent four weeks of my life, and I'm actually getting ready to fly back out in a few weeks to kind of do, they've commissioned me do more work. So another example is this same church. They took their they did a major renovation, took their bell tower and turned it into a prayer chapel, and I went and painted these modern icons in there. It's like, amazing, like, it was such a profound experience for me personally. And on the second visit, I was asking the pastor, like, how could we partner with you to convert some of your space? Reimagine and say, we use the language of reimagining sacred space, helping churches see the property and the their real estate, if you will. How can they use that for the arts? And so the church kind of owns a block, and it's not even a large church. They just acquired a significant property a number of years ago. And so he goes and gets a key. He says, Man, I want to show you something like, we own a doctor's office right here that just shut down. What if we turned it into an art center? And so we walked through there, and what was cool was seeing the pastor dream, and he said, What if we blew out this welcome area and turn this into a big gallery and then the doctor patient rooms? What if we turn those into art studios? So first of September, I flew out there for their grand opening of the close Art Center. And it's, it was amazing to see what this church has done. Over the course of the year, they've invested significant time and money into launching a community art center to, one, to engage the artists, to, you know, create gallery space, to where they can bring the arts, and then three, how they can open up the space to to invite the community in to experience the beauty of the arts in a way that's redemptive, and to create conversations and relationships with unchurched people. So this is just one example of a church that's in a renaissance kind of ways, patronizing the arts for the sake of the gospel. I mean, there's other I mean, I could tell you, you know, we've got a church we've worked with in Asheville. We helped them open an arts center, and in the DIS in the arts district, where 80% of artists lost all of their studios in the floods. I mean, there's just stories like this all across the US. I could share.
Joshua Johnson:I think some people, when they're thinking about the gospel, the good truth. They go, okay, reimagining a sacred space. Reimagine these sacred spaces, bring about the arts. Patron the arts. How in the world does that bring us to Christ? What does that look like? What is the gospel in the midst of the arts?
Unknown:Yeah, yeah. No, it's a good question. So again, it's not bait and switch. It's one of the things is, most churches are cloistered to the four walls of the church. And what happens, statistically? What happens is when someone becomes a new believer and they join a church discipleship is disengaged from the world and do life within the four walls of this church and over time. As I mean, this is a statistical, proven kind of you know, if you get into ethnographic research, is new believers have a network of non believers that they're associated with, but they're quickly. Disengage from that to only associate with Christians. And so what happens is, over time, you know, the vast majority of churches, the members no longer engage with non believers. They no longer engaged with the world. They lose these outside connections. And so I think what the arts do? The arts recreate these connections. Arts are like a meal. They invite people around a table to what I've seen is, if you host an art event, people will show up like one of the biggest struggles the average church faces is, how do we engage our community? How do we invite unchurched people to church? I think one of the lowest hanging fruit is to engage the arts. I used a three fold framework, guilds, galleries, gatherings, you know, start a use your building to start a guild or an artist community to begin to disciple artists. Two is use building space for gallery space. And then three is like, now, there's a lot more that goes into this, but three would be a, you know, creating multi worship arts events or creating quarterly, annual artist gatherings that invite the community in. So there's, there's a lot of ways to have the arts is a means of grace that opens people to deep conversations around the gospel, and it actually lowers the bar for evangelism. It actually prepares people's hearts. It opens up conversations. And isn't that the thing that most Christians struggle with is, how do you have a conversation with an unchurched person, you know, how do I meet somebody who's not of faith? And I think the arts can help us kind of reengage the world in a way that's thoughtful.
Joshua Johnson:I was talking last night, we have a woman in our church that she has an art show tonight, and she's, she's showing a lot of her arts. She's speaking for like 30 minutes. She felt like, the Lord said, don't, don't plan. Just follow the lead of My Spirit as you get up there and talk. And she was like, pray for me, because I have a lot of unbelievers that are coming. And I want to, I want to present like, hey, there's like, beauty of God in the midst of this art. But I don't want to, like, be dogmatic and, you know, truthful, like, I don't know how to talk about it in a way. And then she just talked about and that she just went off for a little while about how when she paints, it is the only time when she just she can block out the world. She feels a sense of peace and calm in the midst of creating more than she does any other time of her life. I was like, there you go, like you're leading. Like, what does it look like to actually in the midst of creation of art, show up, find peace, find calm, be able to block out the world. That's where the beauty of her life is coming through. It's beautiful. But what you say to somebody like that as they're, yeah, presenting something,
Unknown:you know, there's chapter in there on artist spiritual discipline. And I think for artists, there's the whole creative process of, like, the co creation. When we create, there's like, I'm in my studio right now. This is like a home studio that we built. So I kind of took my leap of faith we we built this. But for the non artists, if you will, there's all sorts of benefits of even viewing art. There's a book called your brain on art that does all of the scientific research on the impact of the arts, of just engage, just watching, just looking at art, or engaging an artistic thing, like, once a month will increase your lifespan. It will help your memory. Like, there's all these, you know, it's kind of like research of just walking among the trees, you know, can, like, help lower your you know, your cortisone levels, and you know all these things. So I think, you know, sharing things. There's all sorts of ways that you could do this. You know, having artists share their process, inviting artists and non artists to experience artist talks, you could have Visio Divina nights, where you have art and invite people to prayerfully reflect on the art you could have. I mean, really, there's, it's, it's kind of endless, but one of the things I get into in that chapter on artist spiritual discipline is that the arts invite all of us to slow down, to look and to listen and then to respond. And I use this framework that actually CS Lewis, you know, who's kind of the patron saint of, like evangelicals and Protestants, you know, in North America, where CS Lewis actually talks about how to view art, and it's, it's really significant. So if you don't believe me, you. Read the CS Lewis quote in there, and it's kind of like his thing of like, you know, slowing down to look, to listen to what's happening through the art and then to respond. And if you look at those through the eyes of faith and to prayerfully do that can be really powerful experience. And again, for believers and non believers, you know, inviting them into a space of we're all looking for more time. We're all looking for ways to we're over stressed, we're overworked, and the arts remind us this power of slowing down and being present.
Joshua Johnson:We're all made in the image of God. We all reflect who he is, and that means we're co creators with him here. And so a lot of this being an artist, and you talk about Missionaries of beauty, and you talk about people in the world like we are agents of beauty and CO creators with God. How does this impact the everyday person? And it's not a somebody that does painting or theater or film, you know, well, what does the everyday person as artists look like?
Unknown:You know? It's funny. My you know, we have three daughters, and they're all artists, or two oldest daughters at Asbury University, they're art majors. Or 13 year old is really a great artist as well. My wife jokes and says, I feed the artists, you know. And you know, I would say, like, the culinary arts are the most, probably the most ancient form of human creation, you know, like, who sat around thought about creating a fire, and, like, you know, who invented came up with putting salt and pepper on your chicken or what, you know, it's like, humans have been creatively, you know, doing things creative. Like, How did humans figure out how to create fire? What was the need to, like, rub two sticks together and, you know, create a spark. Like, so, innovation and creativity and arts actually had been with us and around us since the very beginning, because, again, God is the artist, original artist. When He created Adam and Eve, He tasked them to name the animals. He didn't say this is the name of the animals. Part of their task is naming the animals. They're joining in a creative process. And I would argue that, and I do argue that to be created in the imago day is to not just be given moral capacity. Tolkien, I mean, many others have gotten in this site, the moral image actually connected to that is the ability to create and to appreciate beauty. Because, again, there is one who is beautiful, good and true. And we're co we're created to co create. And so I would say, Whatever you do, do it artistically. Put on lenses of creativity and innovation, and dream a new dream. This is why so many people are just, you know, just kind of stuck in their their nine to five, and they just, they're, you know, a lot of us just feel like a cog in the wheel. What if God actually wanted us to, you know, I've seen this with so many Christians. They're living their lives in a way that's very black and white. And I'm not even saying, you know, gray lines. I'm talking about. I think the gospel invites us to live in living color, and I think our God is not a boring God. But you go in most churches, and my goodness, like talk about boring and drab and like monotonous and God is a God of spontaneity. God is a God of beauty. God is a God of like, I mean, the list could go on, right? So I would just say, Whoever you are, whatever your vocation is. Ask the Lord, how God, how can I partner with you in the mission to bring beauty to the world? How can I make the gospel beautiful? How can I again? This isn't watering it down. This isn't this is, how do you live your life in a way that people want to actually emulate that? And they're like, man, whatever that guy's got, I want that, whatever she's, you know, whatever she's doing, there's something to the joy. I mean, you know, the kids coloring book, The, you know, the, probably the most popular Christian, you know, artistic coloring thing is the fruit of the Spirit. Like, that's the that's the spirit painting working in our life in a way, that's creativity that flows out of that. So, whoever you are, whatever you're called to do it, you know, bring beauty to the world, is what I would say.
Joshua Johnson:I grew up in, you know, a variety of different churches, but they all look like, I don't know, like a Walmart, they looked like a big old box, right? And there wasn't much I remember going through, you know, in my church history class, and we were just looking at the architecture of church buildings and how that beauty was trying to actually point. Us to God. And I was so struck and moved by it coming out of churches that actually look like, you know, white boxes to see architecture that actually points me to God. And I was moved in my art, my church history professor, kind of like dismissed churches like that, because he's like, Well, I mean, their beauty on the outside, but there was no life on the inside. And I was like, Well, okay, but the beauty is pointing me to God, and I am moved by it. How do we start to reimagine even spaces in churches?
Unknown:Yeah, no, it's good again. You know this chapter steeples and studios. When we look at the history of the church, you see that beauty has always been there. And like to talk to your church history professor, because you have that comes out of the overflow of something and from somewhere. And I would argue actually the opposite, that those those historic, beautiful, ancient buildings, cathedral. These were built to point. I mean, the cathedral ceilings, you know, they're so high that they're designed to lift your eyes toward heaven and to create an experience of transcendence. And what's interesting is, I love visiting the cathedrals in Europe. And you know, it's, you go there. I mean, the people are walking around. They're just they're mesmerized. These are non believers. Now, many of these places now are, yes, kind of a tomb, but these, at those times that they were, the gospel was passed down through the generations, these these sacred spaces, were carriers of preserving the manuscripts that we take for granted today. There was good bad. I mean, you know, not to give you a history lesson, but there's great things that came out of the Reformation. There were bad. I mean, the Reformation just, you know, took scissors and just cut out anything that, you know, and boiled it down to, again, a church building that looks like a box. Or, you know, a lot of churches you go in, it looks like Walmart on the inside, and it's like, you know, where's the beauty in this place? And I think we, you know, we don't have to. I'm not advocating for building church buildings that look like cathedrals. But how do we integrate the arts? How do we begin to make beautiful? You know, a theology of place. Making a theology of place, what is what would it look like to reimagine sacred space in a way that engages the arts and prepares people's hearts to receive the gospel. That would be the question I would put to pastors, church leaders, Christians, to just begin to reimagine and prayerfully ask the Lord about those things. And there's like the church in LA is just one beautiful example of a small to mid size church that's actually investing money and resources and really engaging in a way that they want the arts to point people to Christ.
Joshua Johnson:I mean, I remember, you know, as I lived on the edge of the desert, five miles from the Syrian border, hanging out with war refugees, ugliest place I've ever been in my life. And the thing, I mean, it was spiritually beautiful, because there was Jesus was meeting people left and right. It was amazing. But the mirror murals on the wall painted by refugees and others to bring beauty always stopped people in their tracks in the midst of this, this ugly place, and it was the the beauty on a dilapidated wall that actually pointed to what was needed in that moment was beauty, hope, Transcendence in the midst of ugliness and brokenness of life, like even in spots, not just murals on a wall. But how do we start to notice and recognize beauty in the world that's already there?
Unknown:Yeah, I mean, I think it begins in nature and creation. I think, you know, my experience with, you know, you know, I tell the story of, like, you know, I hit the wall and that, that song, that piano concerto, slowed me down. I had long covid. And beyond that, I mean, there was like a month I was just like, walking around slow, you know. And like, you know, I was like an old man, and, you know, my wife had a, you know, we've got a little flower, literally, like a wild flower garden. That's kind of a big circle that, you know, has wild flowers that she sows the seeds every year. And they're, I remember just looking at, just sitting there for because I couldn't do. Anything else, you know, just sitting there, watching the bees and the butterflies, you know, pollinating these flowers and watching the, you know, the sunflowers, there were three stages. They were kind of the, you know, they were blooming. There was like the full bloom, and then there's beginning to die off, and then the birds are eating the seeds. And it was like you could see the life cycle. And it was like I saw the whole beauty of creation and a flower garden. And I think my encouragement is like, we miss the miracles. We miss the small miracles that are every day, all around the beauty that is already there so many people are focused on how bad their life is if we begin to look and the other thing is, I had been going so fast and traveling the world, doing all this stuff, and was laying in bed, I could hear my daughters running up and down the steps in the hallway. And my oldest was going to college. She was going to be a freshman, and I had this moment where I realized it was like I was missing their life, and it was like I was present, but was I present? You know, I was always in the home in the evenings, and when I was here, you know, we would do stuff, but like or, you know, so many of us. You know, we might be present to those we love, but our minds and our hearts are actually far off. How do we and this is the power of the arts. I think art brings us back to the moment, and can teach us to be present to the beauty that's already in our homes, in our life, it can free us from always having to go on to the next thing. So I would just encourage, like, go on a walk. You know, go look at go look at the flowers. You know, when you see a bird, think of the miracle. One of the things I've started to do. And probably think I'm a little hokey, but I find bird feathers everywhere almost daily. It's crazy. A couple months ago, it started. I was sitting outside my studio right here, reading my Bible, and a feather fell in my Bible while I was reading outside, and I just teared up. I was like, Oh my gosh. Like, you know what's going on with these feathers? And I joke and tell people it's either it could either mean nothing, or maybe it could mean everything. And what I mean by that is, what if, God, you know, what if that's a little miracle, that's actual What if feathers are all around us every day, and we just don't even see it. And so here's where I'm at. Is I'm looking for the little feathers, I'm looking for the flowers. I'm looking for the if I see a butterfly, stop. I'm stopping. I want to, I want to see the beauty that's all around me. And I think that's the invitation for all of us, is to slow down, to look, to listen. You know, again, Matthew 13, the mystery of the Kingdom happens. We see it when we slow down to look and we have eyes to see and ears to hear.
Joshua Johnson:I know a lot of people who are listening to this. They have big dreams of bringing arts and beauty to the world in in different places, like, like seeing, you know, the brokenness of people transitioning out of of prison into a new life, and, you know, trying to build a community around that. You have people like wanting to bring theater in the arts. I have big dreams. I have a dream in my heart that's been there for 20 years, that I want to see something established, and it's like the arts. What would you say to people who have these dreams? And saying it's there in your heart, you as an apostolic artist, how do you start and get things going? And even though you know, like there's this big dream out there, you can't get everything right away. You have to start small. How do you start to bring beauty to the world.
Unknown:You know, it's a great question. You know, it's, you know, one of my favorite quotes is Martin Luther King, Jr said, you don't have to see the whole staircase. You got to take the first step. And you know, that is my encouragement, is to to invite us all to be a missionary of beauty and to reawaken dreams and visions that the Lord is maybe placed in your heart, or others that are maybe listening. And I think God is an artist. God is a creator, and I think he delights when we co create with him. So if we'll lay those dreams on the altar and take whatever steps and you you know, there's a whole process with this. I've taught church planning, but, you know, I teach people now how to think in terms of how to start local creative arts communities. It looks different in different places. You know, you always dream big, start small, you know, keep it, you know, really put it before the Lord. I think. Like, give it the seriousness that it deserves. Oftentimes, I think Christian have dabbled in the arts and haven't really created for the glory of God. And there's a lot of you know, a lot of Christian artists are creating out of brokenness and bringing some dark stuff, and that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about bringing hope, healing, light and and it can be a source of our own healing as we kind of work those things out. But I think if we'll put them on the altar, and we'll just start small, but dream big and ask the Lord God, what are the what are those next steps? That's part of the creative process. You know, God, there's a little seed in there, and you gotta, like, water it, and you gotta till it. And the beautiful thing is, like, one day you look around man the gardens, you know, God gave me this little seed of a vision for Creo arts. And we're working in like 15 states, and it is beautiful to see what the Lord has done.
Joshua Johnson:What's your hope for, how Beauty will save the world. What do you hope the readers will get?
Unknown:Yeah, I mean, I think exactly that. I hope that every reader will be inspired to make their life a work of art, whether they're an artist or not, whether they're a pastor, whether they're a painter or they're a butcher, baker, candlestick maker, whether stay at home, mom, whatever you do, bring beauty to the world through your life. Slow down, see beauty all around you, and then bring beauty to the world whatever you do, and begin to dream with God. And let's, let's, you know, let's bring beauty to the world, because ultimately, I believe it points to the one who's beautiful, good and true. And I think my other desire, which is directly connected to that, is that there will be a renewal within the church that will flow out of that renaissance and renewal that it we will see the church re engage as it re engages beauty and arts, it will reengage culture, and we'll see an overflow, just like I saw it at Asbury revival or Asbury outpouring, as many people called it, is just this overflow of miracles, of hope and joy and beauty and light, and who wouldn't want more of that? Come on. I know I'm preaching to the choir to you, but like, let's, let's bring beauty to the world. And I would just say, why not call me a dreamer, man? But I'm all in that's people say, What's Winfield Bevins doing? He's painting in his art studio, and he's planting flowers and bringing beauty to the world. Amen.
Joshua Johnson:That's beautiful. That's wonderful. A couple of quick questions here at the end. One, if you go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give?
Unknown:Yeah, I would, I would advise myself to what it's interesting is, last week, I visited my university for the first time in over 20 years, Lee University, where my wife we it's funny, we drove by, took a picture in front of the dorm where I met her. And, you know, there's not a lot I would do over again, but I would kind of reflecting on that. I just, man, I would take myself less serious, and I would take God more serious, and I would, I would have trusted the Lord a little more and just lightened up. And, yeah, I think just, you know, oftentimes the stuff we stress out about, and I'm again preaching to myself here even today, is like God really is in control. God really is guiding our steps, if we really fully surrender ourselves. And God has always been good, and God, even in the bad God, has always gone before and has always made a way. And why wouldn't I trust him? You know? And so I think I would. I would have, if I if, if I could take anything back, I would, I would. I would have worried less and trusted more in God's grace and His love
Joshua Johnson:for me. That's great. Anything you've been reading or watching lately, you could recommend.
Unknown:You know, I did just read CS Lewis's surprise by joy, which was a lovely book. It took a little while once you kind of get into it. It was really lovely because, and it's kind of similar, he talks about these, these glimmers of joy throughout his life. It's he's saying the same thing I'm saying about beauty, and it's all interconnected. It's not something different, because he's talking about the imagination and how he got into fairy stories and these different things about and you see, you know, one of the most highly creative kind of lay theologians. CS Lewis, it's a great book, and would be a great book for some of the listeners to just kind of get a different perspective of what, what we're talking about today.
Joshua Johnson:Well, how Beauty will save the worlds. Will be out anywhere books are sold and you go and get that fantastic book, it'll make your spirit come alive, as it did mine. And like it, just like my heart, just like, hey, I'm coming alive reading this thing. So. Yeah, really wonderful, wonderful book. How can people either? Where would you like to point people to to either get, get the book to connect with you? Creole arts, what you're doing, yeah.
Unknown:I mean, the main thing is, you know, I'm also an artist. We didn't get into that, but you know, my website's Winfield bevans.com Creo arts.org, is where you can kind of learn about this national nonprofit that I lead, how artists, churches, patrons, can kind of engage the arts in their local communities. We have tons of films capturing artists working in their studios from different backgrounds. There's a link a book page on that site. You know, as you said, the books, wherever books are sold. Instagram is probably the kind of place where I'm kind of doing most of my stuff, where you could see my personal artwork and but yeah, you know, I'm pretty active as people reach out and just again, I hope that you know our time today would just inspire others to whoever you are, whatever you do, bring beauty to the world, make your life a work of art, and let's, let's be missionaries of beauty. Amen.
Joshua Johnson:Well, thank you, Winfield, it was fantastic conversation. And yes, let us, let us be missionaries of beauty, and we could bring beauty to the world. It's fantastic. So thank you so much for this conversation.
Unknown:Absolutely thanks so much for having me. You.
