Ep. 384 Nathan Clarkson - I'm the Worst: How Freedom Is Found in Admitting Our Faults

In this episode, I sit down with Nathan Clarkson, author of I’m the Worst, for an honest conversation about brokenness, shame, confession, and freedom. Nathan shares what it was like growing up in a well-known Christian family, learning how to perform moral goodness while hiding the parts of himself he didn’t know how to face, and how confronting that reality became the beginning of healing rather than the end of the story. We talk about moral superiority, cancel culture, and the ways fear turns both politics and church life into tribes instead of communities. We also dig into the difference between shame and conviction, why confession and forgiveness matter so much for spiritual formation, and how dehumanization always leads to harm. This conversation is for anyone who is tired of polarized Christianity and is looking for a more honest, freeing, and love-shaped way forward.

Nathan Clarkson is the author of I’m the Worst, and an award-winning actor, a Netflix-trending filmmaker, and best-selling author of several books, including Different and Uniquely You. He is a podcast philosopher on the award-winning show The Overthinkers. Nathan writes regularly on the intersection of faith and culture for the Patheos column Cross Cultural and has been featured in outlets such as the Today Show, LA Times, Variety, and Relevant Magazine. Find out more at nathanclarkson.me.

Nathan's Book:

I'm the Worst

Nathan's Recommendation:

The Hidden Habits of Genius

Connect with Joshua: jjohnson@shiftingculturepodcast.com

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Transcript

Nathan Clarkson: 0:46

I think a lot of people have a fear of acknowledging the difficult and dark things about themselves and their story, because they think it will end their story. But with God, with Jesus, acknowledging those things is the beginning of a story, and it's the beginning of a story in which you are redeemed and made whole, and you find goodness and love at the end of the story.

Joshua Johnson: 1:22

Hello and welcome to the shift in culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create and the impact we can make. We long to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host. Joshua Johnson, today I'm joined by Nathan Clarkson to talk about something most of us avoid our own brokenness. Nathan grew up in a well known Christian family, and learned early how to look like he had it all together, but beneath the performance was fear, shame and a deep resistance to being honest about what was actually going on inside. In this conversation, we talk about moral superiority, cancel culture, confession, forgiveness and why admitting our failures isn't the end of the story, but the beginning of healing. We get into how the church often handles sin and shame poorly, how communities can become tribal instead of transformative, and what it looks like to live with humility instead of pretending we're the good ones. This is an honest conversation about freedom, responsibility and what it really means to follow Jesus when we stop hiding. So join us. Here is my conversation with Nathan Clarkson. Nathan, welcome to shifting culture. Excited to have you on. Thanks for joining me. Yeah, thanks for having me. It's great to be here. You're in your book. I'm the worst. That's a hard admission, but you grew up in a in a place where you had kind of, you know, a famous Christian family. You're trying to be a little image conscious. You're thinking about, what does it look like to be, I don't know, a moral Christian, and this have other people look at me as a moral Christian, and right standing, where did that admission start to jump in for you that you actually have faults and it's okay.

Nathan Clarkson: 3:05

It's a kind of a vacillating thing throughout my entire life. You know that I think I spent a lot of my life looking at myself and thinking I was the best in many, many ways. You know, I came from the right family. I believed the right things. I knew the right scripture verses, I posted the right things. I I knew the morality, I knew the ethics. I knew how to look, as you said, I knew how to wear the costume of what it looked like to be a good Christian kid. And so I think a lot of my life, I believed I was the best. But underneath that costume, underneath the the veneer, I knew kind of a subliminal knowing. But I knew there were, there were things down there that were dark and broken and in need of healing. So I spent a lot of my life trying not to know those things that were underneath the veneer. But as I grew up, particularly in my adult life, I had a few moments in my life where all of a sudden I had to come face to face with the reality of my brokenness and admit that I am the worst, that I have places that are broken, that I need help, that I have things wrong with me that need to be fixed and redeemed. And that's kind of where this book came out of. It came out of those moments when I was forced to look at my darkness and actually admit the reality of myself,

Joshua Johnson: 4:28

it is freeing, and we're going to talk about some of the freedom there. But when you're thinking about I'm the best, I think a lot of people right now either they think that they're the best, or their side is the best, whatever side that they're on and they're they're looking at other people as the worst. What do you think it does to us as humanity, if we consistently think that we're better than or we are the best, as opposed to other people who are lesser than

Nathan Clarkson: 5:01

Yeah, that's a great question. And you know, this has been going on with humans. You know, we've got a lot of new technology. We have phones, we have TVs, but if you look at scripture, if you Oh, my goodness, humans haven't changed all that much, right? Jesus was telling this parable of, you know, the taking the speck out of your brother's eye while there's a log in your own. And that was very relevant then, and it's very relevant now, because humans have this amazing ability to see the mistakes and faults and flaws of everyone else but ourselves. And when I say ourselves, I mean our individual selves. I mean our group, our tribe, whatever it might be, we have this ability. And why do we do this? Well, because it's one it's way more pleasurable to find faults in someone else than it is ourselves, right? Right? You know, I'm really good at picking out all the ways my friends and my family are failing me well, and I'm really not that very good. I'm trying to get better at seeing all the ways that I fail and fall so one, it's not very fun. And two, you know, if we do actually have to face our faults, that would mean we have to fix something and do work and do things we don't want to do, and it'd be uncomfortable, but we'd much rather say, hey, there's brokenness in the world. It's definitely from the person over there. It's definitely from and that puts the impetus on them to change, to work, to do. And so, you know, it's a natural thing, but what ends up happening is, the longer we do this, we all have a sickness of sin and brokenness and need, and the longer we ignore that and look at others and their sin and brokenness and need and ignore our own, the more it corrupts and breaks and cracks, the more it actually hurts us, the longer it goes on. And so I think the the worst thing is letting that brokenness spread because we are unwilling to actually recognize and deal with it. It's just like a sickness. Eventually you have to say, I'm sick, and that's when you can go to the doctor and get healing. But until you do, you'll get sicker and sicker, and this is what is happening in all of our hearts and minds when we do that, when we take part in that, they're the problem, and I'll just look at them and ignore the problems with myself.

Joshua Johnson: 7:08

I think part of it is that moral superiority that you talking about. I think we see that. And you mentioned it here in your book. You see it in cancel culture. You see it also in Christian fundamentalism of like, hey, we need to do the right thing. We are doing the right thing. We know the right answers, and so we're morally superior, and we have to point out all of the flaws and other people. What does moral superiority do for us? Like, how do we recognize that we are actually, like, puffing ourselves up as being morally superior to others?

Nathan Clarkson: 7:43

Another great question. This is something I'm learning. And, you know, I wrote a book, and I wrote a book as a process of learning. I'm trying to implement this my life. I'll tell you one of the things that I found really helpful for me to recognize when I kind of fall into that trap is when I see someone make a mistake, when I see someone make a faux pas or sin, or get caught in something, and where there's someone close to me, or even just in kind of that celebrity you know, out there, culture online, one of the things that's been helpful is to investigate my reaction. Do I immediately feel better than them? You know, there's a story in with the Pharisees, you know, I thank God I did not do this or I was made this way. And you see that superiority in the Pharisees. Do I approach this with a Pharisaical heart? Well, I've never done anything like that. Well, I've never done, you know, I'm just glad that, you know, maybe I make mistakes, but not like that person. Or do I approach that person, be it a friend or someone else, as someone, as a fellow, broken person. And of course, we hate what they've done, if it was wrong and destructive, but we say, yeah, we've all done terrible and awful and have broken parts for ourselves. And so I investigate myself and how I'm reacting to seeing or interacting with someone who was caught or is broken or made a mistake. Am I approaching them as someone who is a fellow person in need, or am I approaching them as someone who gets some sort of sense as I'm better than them? And I think that's something to really investigate. Are we looking at people who disagree with us or make mistakes or do something wrong or do things that we disagree with? Are we looking at them as people were better than, or as people that we are on the same plane with, and in all in need of help? And so I think that's something that's been really helpful

Joshua Johnson: 9:36

for me. Yeah, that's so hard to do, right? Actually, see, see the image of God in all people, like, when, hey, there have been, like, harm and abuse and difficult things in in life where we're seeing man, does that person deserve whatever, whatever like? How do we see the image of God in people when it is then couched in like abuse and harm and these horrible things that people have done?

Nathan Clarkson: 10:06

Yeah, yeah. Well, I think we can, without any hesitation, call a spade a spade and say something is wrong when it's wrong, particularly when it's abuse and it causes harm to people. In fact, I think we have a responsibility to say that when someone does something deeply destructive to themselves or others, we as a responsibility, as believers and people have responsibility to say that is wrong, to point it out, to draw it out, and say it is wrong at the very same time, what we do while we're saying that is wrong is that we remember that we have taken part in small and large ways of being someone who has caused fracture in the world that none of all. All of us have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, that all of us has added to this fracture and darkness that exists in this broken world, and that we are not immune from the temptations of destruction and what that can bring. So we with without any equivocation, we say something is wrong when it's wrong, but we also do that in a way that remembers that we have just as much culpability when it comes to bringing darkness into the world as anyone else. And that's a really hard and kind of difficult thing, attention to exist in, to both be someone who calls something out, but humbly acknowledges that they have sin and problem and mistakes as well. And it's a difficult tension and to strike, but I think it's a really necessary one. So I think it's a two fold thing. You're a writer or filmmaker as well. So I think a lot of times when when movies really don't work for me is when the villain is like, one note, it's just pure evil that we don't see any humanity in the villain. We just see evil, right? How has like even working in a medium where you have to find humanity and empathy and characters that you portray and play, or characters that you're writing, how has that actually helped open up to see people underneath the surface of what they do? Yeah, I remember years ago, I was sitting with my therapist, funnily enough, and we got in this discussion kind of went all these different places. And I remember we talked about we kind of the same kind of discussions we're having now. And he said, You know, it's fascinating that if you saw the entirety of context for anybody, the worst person you can think of, you know, a serial killer, right? That if you saw their entire context, you wouldn't justify what they did. You would never say it's good, but you would understand. And so what you're talking about is understanding, and what I see from Jesus, when he interacted in Scripture with so many different people, he never justified the things that they were doing that hurt themselves or others. But what he did is he understood their context and who they were and why they ended up where they did, and from that context, he gave them grace and empathy. And so in my work as an actor, you know, that is one of the primary works more kind of the practices that you take as an actor, particularly when you have a role that where you get to dig into a character and and in my career, for whatever reason, I played a lot of bad guys. I played some good guys too, but I got to play a lot of bad guys. And so it's been a very fascinating thing for me to try to dig into the humanity of people who have done things murderers you know who've done things so dark and find that they're even underneath all the mistakes and brokenness that they've put on because of their lives and choices, decisions and context, that beneath that, there's still a person made in the image of God that it desires and hopes and longs for something, and while it often, you know, goes awry because of their choices. They're beneath all of that isn't a person made in the image of God, and that's something that I don't just do for them, but I can do for myself, because I can end up, you know, we can talk about I think I'm the best, we can also in a place where we think we're the worst and we can hate ourselves. And that's something I've experienced as well, and I have to remember that beneath all my mistakes and all my failures and all my flaws, that there is someone who has made the image of God and is inherently loved by his creator. So that's something that has been incredibly helpful in my work. I think that's great to be able to recognize it in others, and now you're starting to recognize it in yourself. But oftentimes when you're going with, like your brokenness, it feels like heavy and feels like you're going to shame yourself for the brokenness that you have, right? Just a small example. So you're talking about how confession, like opening yourself to others could actually we'll find freedom in in that it's really freeing. I really think that if we have a a place where confession is normalized, like in the church, we wouldn't see a lot of these leaders like fall from grace, because they would confess early and like, there's an ongoing place where there is something and people know what's going on. I just remember when I was 18, I did something stupid. I confess to, like, this accountability group that I had, you know, a few guys and this mentor, you know, like you all do, and, yeah, you're 18, you know, you have those groups. And so I confessed. I said, here, this is my sin. This is what happened. And then they shunned me, and they didn't want anything to do with me, because, you know, I sinned, so that it took me to be honest, there was, like two months ago, I was having a spiritual direction session, and in that I felt like Jesus was inviting me to let go of some shame. And. It led me to that moment that I felt like I've been hiding because of that moment for 29 years. So my question is, there that man, I put so much shame on myself because of the way people reacted to my confession and my vulnerability? How do we enter into something? Admit that we're the worst, admit that we're broken, admit that we have these things and not fall trap into

Joshua Johnson: 17:16

the shame spiral that could basically derail you for years.

Nathan Clarkson: 17:23

Oh, yeah, that's a that is a million dollar question, and the the best answer I've come up with is, you know, your story is fascinating, because I've experienced things like that in my life as well. You actually are brave enough to open yourself up and confess something that's difficult and embarrassing and and you get shunned for and I think that's that is that kind of culture is what creates a culture of suppression, where people don't actually share their struggles, and I think that also comes out of a culture of any people who would shun someone else for confessing, believe that they don't need to confess, believe that they don't have things that they need to get right, and it's a false belief, and it's one that scripture addresses over and over again, but yeah, How do we avoid that shame spiral, particularly when we're not in context where we're being given love and grace from people in the community around us? Well, the one thing I've come to is it's a necessary thing. We have to acknowledge our sickness. If we're going to get better, we have to, we have to acknowledge our leg is broken, our knee is skinned, our our arm is, you know, falling off and all the spiritual ways, whatever it might be, we have to acknowledge our sickness if we're going to get better. But we can't see that acknowledgement of our brokenness and our darkness. That's not where the story ends. That's the beginning of the story. And this is kind of how it flipped for me, is, I think a lot of people have a fear of acknowledging the difficult and dark things about themselves and their story, because they think it will end their story. But with God, with Jesus, acknowledging those things is the beginning of a story, and it's the beginning of a story in which you are redeemed and made whole, and you find goodness and love at the end of the story. And so I think it's just flipping it on its head, what most people consider the end of a story, if they finally have to face that is really the beginning of a story when you're in the context of a good creator.

Joshua Johnson: 19:21

I mean, that's beautiful to be able to see that in yourself, that this is the beginning of the story, though, stop the shame spiral. But I think we do that in the church as we exclude people, because we think that they're at the end of the story, but they're really people are at the beginning of the story. There is an end. There is a telos. There's a place that we're going, right? What does that look like, seeing people for who they are and their brokenness, not even for us and for others, to not just stay in our brokenness, but then, what are the next steps to lead us into the freedom from our brokenness, into something that is more healthy and whole?

Nathan Clarkson: 20:04

That's a another great question, and it's one that is, this is the, this is the beautiful but hard part, right? This is the one where it the rubber hits the road. Because we can have all the best intentions in the world, but it's like the rich young ruler. He had great intentions, but he wasn't willing to actually follow through on what Jesus said, who actually would save him, and what Jesus said would would make him whole and bring him wholeness. And you know, the story of the rich young ruler is fantastic, and it can be about money, but I think there's, you know, if you know what it's about, a young man who came to Jesus and said, I want to follow you. I want to be saved. I want to, you know, tell me what I need to do. And Jesus says, Give up all your possessions and give them to the poor. And he couldn't do it. And so he walks away, and it's a very sad story. And of course, this has something to do with being generous with our possessions. But I think even more than that, there's something that many of us are on we even though we want to follow Jesus and find redemption and find wholeness, there's something be it, be it money, like it was at the rich young ruler in possessions, or be it something else, maybe it's pride, or maybe it's your your standing, or whatever it might be, but there's something that's keeping us from following God and Jesus into into redemption. And so I think doing the work to figure out the barriers, the things that we're holding on to, that God is asking us to let go of so that we can follow him into the redemption that will lead us into who we were created to be. And you know, what does this practically look like? I think you mentioned a couple of the things. Practically, it's being humble enough to when you find people confess your sins, you know, let them go. And that's let go in a pride. That's letting go of your pride, and it's putting people around you good. People, trustworthy people who can not only hear your confession, but help you take the next steps, give you images of what it looks like to walk towards redemption and walk with you in that and then, if that's something that you don't have, that if you don't have people around you, read books, read other people who have taken this journey, let the people from yesteryear in history, even myth, even good stories, follow characters and people as images of how to go about following in the footsteps towards God and into redemption. Stories are a powerful thing, and the more stories you put in your life and your mind that can give you an image and a blueprint for how to walk that out, the better. So those are a couple practical things that I found really helpful for once, you kind of admit those things about yourself, but actually want to follow on that path, put stories in your life, give people around you and be willing to give up the things that are really difficult that God is asking you to give up for that redemption.

Joshua Johnson: 22:45

Is there a specific story in your life, that that you resonated with, that helped you in this journey.

Nathan Clarkson: 22:52

Personally, that's a good there's so, so many great stories. Oh, man, you know, I think about, I grew up on the Lord of the Rings and The the Narnia is I grew up on, you know, there's a great book called God smuggler about a guy named Brother Andrew, who was crazy, you know, crazy life, and had this encounter with God, you know, you think about the saints throughout history. Think about St Francis. You think about, you know, even, even even modern people, like, I loved rich Mullins, the story of rich Mullins, one of my favorite inspirational people that inspired me as a young man. So, you know, there's those are some of my favorites as I think back over the course of what. But there's kind of endless these endless stories. And that's a really cool thing, because there is endless access to great stories that can encourage you. We just actually have to engage with them and let them encourage us.

Joshua Johnson: 23:42

Side note here, you know, I was my wife, and I were driving home the other day, and awesome God came on, and which is a great song, is it is like, we can, we could sing it, you know, rich Mullins wrote the awesome God. And I was just like, I was comparing awesome God to the the rest of his songwriting, rest of the songwriting is very poetic. It is, you know, the imagery is incredible. It's just, like, really deep and just beautiful music, awesome. That is amazing, but it's amazing, but it's just like, it's kind of boring. It's really boring. A little simplistic comparative, and it's simplistic. I was like, why is that his most like popular song? It's boring and simplistic. But I guess

Nathan Clarkson: 24:28

I so agree, because everybody could sing it, right? Yeah, it's one that sticks in your head. But that's so true. This always bothered me. I love awesome God is a classic Christian kid anthem. But when you go his other, his library of poetry, oh my goodness, it's deep and beautiful and heart rending, comparatively Absolutely, it's

Joshua Johnson: 24:46

kind of like, you know, why? Why do we get these dumb, you know, dumb movies that everybody loves, that are very simplistic, and then, you know, it's something like tree of life, or something, you know, people are like, you know, one of my favorite movies ever. And people are like, Oh, I can't even get through, you know, the first five minutes.

Nathan Clarkson: 25:04

You can't get me started on Christian movies and and tree of life. You can't do this to me, because I have a whole, that's a whole other episode, because I will dive in.

Joshua Johnson: 25:15

I know, I know, I know that was a good, good side note, but so let's, let's dive back in. Let's talk about the Holy Spirit. Because one of the things the Holy Spirit does is actually reveal places that are broken inside of us like so there's some discernment that are happening. There's conviction of the spirit that is happening because we know that there is some brokenness. How have you figured out how to really decipher the difference between conviction of the Spirit and just shame that is from the enemy?

Nathan Clarkson: 25:50

Oh, that is a good question, because here's the thing, I have spent years of my life. It's funny, because I talk about I felt like the best, I felt like the worst, I felt like anything between. But I have spent, there have been years in my life where I just hated myself, and I have looked at the things I've done and I had, would have panic attacks to talk about one of the book. There's a story I tell where I just suddenly am overwhelmed with all of my mistakes and all of the ways I have failed. And it is, it is one of the worst things I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy to have to and just the shame is this, this, yeah, it's hard to find the correct metaphor for but it's like a it's like a muck that swallows you and that, and it's really a powerful and and terrible thing. And so how do we acknowledge our brokenness without succumbing to it and succumbing to the shame? You know, there's a few different things, and in kind of. That question of deciphering, is this just the shame swamp darkness, or is this the Holy Spirit who's convicting me? There's a couple different things that I have employed that have really helped me. And I know it sounds funny, but I don't trust myself to totally hear the Holy Spirit or decipher. Now, I think I can. I think, of course, God speaks to me, but I know I'm pretty I'm pretty flawed, and I have pretty selective hearing, and I have biased hearings, and so one of the things I've learned to do is bring it to other people who I really trust. And I'm not talking to anybody. I'm not talking, you know, just opening up to anyone. You need to be careful who you open up to, but when you find trustworthy people, I bring it to people like trust, and I say I'm feeling this. And sometimes it's a therapist, sometimes it's a friend, sometimes it's my mom or my dad, and but I go to them and I say I'm feeling this, and I get their input into it, and they're going to help me decipher what's what is of God and what isn't of God, what the Holy Spirit is teaching me and what I can leave behind, what shame I that I should pay attention to, and what I shouldn't and when I invite other people into it, you know God, we are the hands and feet of God. And so when I invite other people into it, I am inviting, in a way, God to come in and decipher what is being said and what I can trust and what I know. And so that has been a really helpful thing. Another helpful thing for me is even how you think about it. I remember years ago, some like, I remember who it was. So if you, if you said this, take attribution, but that shame is something that is says that's what you are and and guilt is something that says that is something you've done. And guilt is a in these in this kind of definition, guilt is a good thing, because it's something you've done you can correct and stop or change or redeem, but shame is just who you are, and so God is not a God of shame, because he tells us who we are. We are loved. We're creating the image of God. We are worthy, we're valuable. We do things that grieve Him, that that are broken things, that we are not an inherently broken and evil thing. And so that's a good reminder for me. But yeah, I think that's kind of this. One of the very first things I would do is bring it to other people I trust, to help them. Help me decipher what is true and what is of God.

Joshua Johnson: 29:03

So then, how do you stop shame? If you're, you're, you're gonna be talking about your book for for a while, and the title is, I'm the worst meaning, like, hey, that is a that is a condemnation over yourself. Not you have done broken things, but you are. That's a good thing. How do you then reframe even the title of your book to not say that you are a broken thing, you are loved and valuable, that you you know you are a beloved child of God, that you know is incredible, but you have done broken things, and you need to be honest about the brokenness that you have inside of you. How do you how do you play out the distinction with that in your life?

Nathan Clarkson: 29:52

Yeah, you know you finish the sentence. Of course, I love this title because it's catchy, and this is what everyone's like. Oh, really. Okay, so I love that. But what it comes from is the verse where St Paul says, I am the worst of sinners. And he's saying exactly, exactly what we're talking about. He basically, in that sentence, you know, he goes on to finish about the redemption that God offers him while being the worst of sinners, but it's an admission that I am the worst of sinners. But the finishing of that of that sentence is that essentially, I am someone who has done the worst things, committed the worst acts, and yet I because I'm made in the image of God, and I'm loved and I'm a human. Am offered redemption and love and forgiveness and grace and mercy, and so of course, I love the catchy title, but if you go and actually read what Paul is saying there, when he says I am the worst, you see that he's not saying he's holistically the worst, that he's inherently the worst. He is saying that the things he has done, that he is someone who has done the worst things, and yet he is loved and he is worthy of redemption and forgiveness and grace and empathy. So that's something that I've really has been very helpful for me in exploring this title and this concept, and I hope that will translate in the book to the readers as well.

Joshua Johnson: 31:09

As we started this conversation, we were talking really a lot about how we see others. We have our own tribes that we then say, Hey, we're better than these people. And tribes really create enemies. There's enemies out of out of others. You contrast that with community and us being a part of one community and a whole community. How do we then sit with enemies that we believe are enemies, and sit at the table, which, you know, Jesus says, Hey, here's a table. Everybody's invited. Yeah. Some people are like, I don't want to sit with this person or sit next to them. How do we move into a place of we're going to forget the tribe and enemy, and we're going to open up this table and be community with each other.

Nathan Clarkson: 32:02

Oh my gosh, this is a great question. And by the way, I don't always say that you have really, really good questions. You're good at this. You should do this professionally? No, that's a great question, because here's the thing that I kind of explore in the book, the idea of tribe is kind of this evolutionary idea, right? That it's, it's something you have to form out of a fear. There's a predator, there's there's an army or an other danger. Maybe it's natural, whatever it might be, and you have to form a tribe in defense of something out there. And so it's formed of a fear of something. And we see that, you know, that's what we call so many things nowadays, tribalistic. Because the reason people form is out of a reaction and a fear to something happening out there. Maybe, you know, a politician is doing something you don't like, and so you you're scared of that, you form a collection of people in reaction to that. And that can happen a million different ways. That's a tribe. It's something it's a form of people who have coalesced because of a shared fear and reaction to something that's happening out there a community, however, is something we see in Scripture, and we see that this is the real way we were meant to coalesce together, which is community isn't looking outward scared. It's looking inward in celebration. It a community circles around something and celebrates and worships it. And so, you know, the church is, was always supposed to be a community where we we circle around the beauty of God and His ways, and we celebrate it together. We worship God together. That's the community. We don't sit and be fearful of everything else on the outside of what might hurt us. And you know, over and over again, every time Jesus reveals Himself or angels reveal himself, it's fear, not. That's a command. And so I think we think about, okay, how do we sit with people who are quote, unquote enemies, or think differently than us or act differently than us, or behave differently than us or look differently than us? I think a lot of what keeps people from doing that is fear. You know, I have lived and worked in Hollywood, both in New York and LA for over 15 years. And listen, I was a youth group Christian kid, pastors kid, and so it was a culture shock when I got to Hollywood and like, oh my gosh, I'm now in a place where not everyone thinks exactly like me or behaves exactly like me. Listen these words they're saying. Listen to this the movies they're making and the stories they're telling. It was a culture shock. But after I got over the initial culture shock, what I realized that these were people, and they had the same desires for love and affection and connection, and ultimately, the same desires for God, whether they knew it or not as I did. And all of a sudden, all that fear that I had been kind of, they learned from blogs and, oh, Hollywood's evil and all this thing, of course, but you know, of course, there's brokenness everywhere. But all of a sudden I learned that I didn't these people weren't people to fear. They were people just like me who desire the same things I did, and were longing and looking for light and longing and looking for redemption and God's love. And so once I let go of that fear, I found that I was able to actually have connection with them. And it was through connection that any changes that were made. It was only through relational connection, and that's the same in my life and same in anyone else's life. So if you want to see people come to God, if you want to see people find redemption, we can't sit tribalistically fearful from everyone who thinks and looks differently than us. We have to be have an invitational stance that is, come and join this beautiful thing, and we are worshiping and celebrating together. I'm not scared of you. I want you with me. And so relational connection will only happen when we let the fear go, if we invest in a community oriented context, not a tribalistically fear based

Joshua Johnson: 35:38

one, having moral imagination or actually imagining a better future, a place where people can actually sit at the same table, having community, I think, is a it's a creative act. It is something that we start to create because we have this imagination. So can you think of a time where you have been part of a production or something that was being created out of fear, and contrast that with a production that was being created out of love and celebration, was there, is there a difference there, of even the art, the things that we, we make and create, that will actually then promote what you're trying to Say?

Nathan Clarkson: 36:27

Absolutely, you know, and I won't name names or or give away too much, but yeah, I've been part of of different artistic expressions and desires, where one was based out of fear. And what I know, what I've noticed when I have encountered those. And it's, it's been different times, you know? Sometimes it's people who have a political. Whole anger agenda, or they or a religious one, or whatever it might be, but there's a fear, and we have to do this so we can almost like as an as an act of war. You know, there's fighting language around it. We have to use this thing fight to whatever it might be. And what I've noticed is exactly like what I was saying a second ago. A few things happen. Unfortunately, one, it makes it much harder for relationships to be formed, because people have a more difficult time being honest and open and allowing themselves to be seen, lest they not fit into the group, lest they be something that that strikes fear into the heart of already fear based people. And so people are much more on edge, which makes it more difficult for people to grow close and have those close connections. And when you don't have close interrelational connections, you're going to have a much more difficult time creating beautiful and good art. And then that goes to the next thing, which is very often I've seen that art becomes propaganda. We just have to get our message across. It doesn't need quality and beauty and goodness. And that there's one thing I know about God, and I look around this natural world, that He loves quality and beauty, and that he creates out of joy and relation. You know, we look at the the original creation narrative, and it's, it's the Godhead in relation, out of joy creating. And that's a beautiful thing, and that's how we ought to create. And so if we're not in those conditions, if we're in the conditions of fear and tribalism and reaction, we're just not going to create good and beautiful things and just inherently but if you can be in a position, and I have these positions, where you have people who are there because they love something together, not because they're scared of something together, but they love something together, and they're celebrating together, then you have relational unity, which creates more collaboration, which creates better art, which creates more quality art, which ultimately creates art that actually has the ability to affect and reach and touch people. And so that's a lot of that's a lot of artistic theory all in one sentence. But yeah, absolutely, I've noticed that, and I've experienced that in my life multiple times

Joshua Johnson: 38:48

art, it does imitate life. And life does imitate art because we actually have the the ability to create in our own lives and the communities around us, and we could create these beautiful, good and true things that are, you know, from God, that we could see in our communities. I think that's important. And I think one of the things that you mentioned there with you know, people creating out of fear was that they weren't able to be honest. And honesty is important in confession and being honest with yourself of who you are in the brokenness. How does honesty happen without judgmentalism? Because we are being honest about really broken things, and we could be very judgmental of ourselves and others through our honesty. Is there a way to to actually get rid of the judgmentalism in the midst of being honest,

Nathan Clarkson: 39:41

the the way I've learned, because I used to be, I used to be that kid who was like, I'm just being honest. I'm just telling everyone what's wrong with him. I'm just being honest. And the way, the way that I learned how to be honest without judgmentalism is to not be selectively honest. If I'm going to get honest about someone else, I need to be honest about myself. And that's exactly what that parable is about, right? Hey, listen, he, you know, in that parable, the guy does have a speck in his eye, and maybe it would help him, if you remove the twig or speck out of his eye, but to do that, you're going to have to remove the log out of your own eye. And so for me, it was learning to not be, look, honesty is good and that that is a that is an inherent good honesty and truth, but not selective truth and honesty. And so to me, I had to learn the the art I'm learning the art of objective honesty. If I'm going to be honest about someone else, I'm going to need to be honest about myself. I'm gonna be honest about someone else's group or tribe or or collection. I'm gonna have to be honest about my group and tribe.

Joshua Johnson: 40:39

How do you think that the church can start to cultivate a place where confession is normalized and honesty in that is normalized?

Nathan Clarkson: 40:48

Oh, man, I would love this. You know, I I have so many great friends from different Christian traditions, particularly liturgical, and there's so many wonderful things in the liturgical traditions that I love. But as you have mentioned a couple times, confession is one I just think is so not just beautiful, not just esthetically nice, but like you said needed. I think it would mitigate so much of of the problems and issues we've seen. And I think the way, you know, this is difficult, that's a big question, but the way that I would begin to figure that an answer out to that question is, how do we integrate more honest and open confession within church? Two things, we have to have a context and a culture of people being willing to hear and accept and offer grace when they hear big, dark, broken things, and then two, it has to be something again, that's universal, that it's not just those people who need to confess, it's not just that guy who needs to confess. It's all of us. So it's a it's a communal thing. We all. All take part in so we're all confessing, and we've in through that we create a culture and a context in which we know that we will be met with, with accountability, with, you know, support, but also love and empathy and grace. So those are the two kind of first steps I would take. And I know there's more steps, but those are two really important first ones I feel like we got to take if we're going to do that.

Joshua Johnson: 42:09

I think a lot of times the confession will then lead to forgiveness. I think forgiveness is the

Nathan Clarkson: 42:15

secret sauce of of the Christian faith, but one of the things that we often don't is we don't forgive ourselves in the midst of our brokenness, right? And we don't forgive others, and so we hold on to things that really we need to let go, and forgiveness is going to help us let go. Just speak a little bit about the importance of forgiveness and why forgiveness can bring healing to our souls. Yeah, it's forgiveness is a necessary thing because we all need it, and we all need it from each other, and we all need it for ourselves. And I think, you know, I could explain to everyone why we need it, but I don't think anyone doesn't think we don't need it. You know what I mean? I feel like everyone listening right now will know, yeah, there's been a time I'd be in forgiveness, and I needed it badly, and maybe we don't want to admit that, but I think we know. And I think there's also in all of our minds a time that we can remember that someone has needed our forgiveness. And so I don't think I need to convince anyone of a necessity, or at least a universality of its necessity. I do think what the difficult part is just doing it actually one learning how to forgive others, learning how to let go, learning how to offer them that it feels like an impossible task, and learning even how to forgive ourselves can feel like an impossible task, and this is something that we I think we have to walk with God on And in particularly either whether we're forgiving others or ourselves, it's a journey. It's not something that happens in a moment. This is something I've learned. It's a decision that happens over and over again. But as far as the necessity of it, you know, the things that we do, the that have brought fracture into our lives and other people's lives, they bring chains and they hold us and they hold us to guilt and they hold us to shame. And one of the only antidotes, like you said, it's the secret sauce of Christianity, is forgiveness. If we want freedom, it comes from someone offering that to us and us offering that to ourselves. Yeah. And so it is a necessary and deeply necessary and difficult thing to find, but it's something that that when we find it, it sets us free to actually live into who God created us to be. And again, it's a process. It's a walk. It's a series of decisions and everyday thing, but it's so necessary. And so if you are someone listening right now, and you know that there's forgiveness that you could offer in your heart, that you're not be it to yourself or someone else, begin that journey, because it will set you or someone else free. The more freedom we have in this world, the more beautiful we'll

Joshua Johnson: 44:54

be as you've been set free in your life, and that you found some freedom. Have you found yourself wanting to retreat back into the the old Nathan that would keep secrets and want to be, you know, put on the facade of moral superiority. How have you kept in the freedom that you have found in the midst of this and not just retreated back into the old ways?

Nathan Clarkson: 45:26

That's a great question, yeah, of course I have it feels, it feels so good to be better than other people. I'm not gonna lie. It's a drug and I and I love my hits of it, and I still struggle every day. You know, one of the things I had to do, I had to get off of a particular, I won't say it, I had to get off of a particular social media platform, because I found it wasn't good for my soul, because I'd sit there and just judge people. I'd scroll and judge and scroll and judge and you know, I could try to use self control, but you know, it wasn't working, and so I had to take drastic measures and just delete the app because it wasn't good for me. But yeah, I absolutely am tempted to go back, because it feels great to feel better than other people, and the antidote to that is I surround I have surrounded myself with people who are brutally and hilariously honest with me, and they knock me down to size. And I know that sounds funny, but we have this relationship, and my family and the people around me, my even with my wife, where we are, we have opened ourselves up so we already know we're fully loved, right? We're on the foundation of love. So anything that said is coming out of a place of affection and and and continuing committed love. But when that's established, they can be honest with me. Nathan, that's ridiculous. Nathan, what are you talking about? No, no. You remember? That one time, and so surrounding with myself, with people who are honest with me, has been integral to me, continuing to live in humility. And I think that's such a valuable, valuable thing. And you know, just even individually, myself is choosing to remember how good God is will put me and my mistakes and my littleness into perspective. And how do I do that? You interact with him as much as possible. You go and walk in the mountains and see how beautiful and big he is. You listen to great music. You think on how amazingly the world is assigned. And you remember, oh yeah, I know where I am in this context and who he is and who I am. So those things have been really, really helpful for me.

Joshua Johnson: 47:31

I'd love to get, like, a practical first step so people who are feeling like crushed by their own brokenness and their failures in their life, what do you think like the first step to finding freedom looks like for people?

Nathan Clarkson: 47:44

Oh, yeah. Well, you know, we said it earlier, but it's remembering you might feel crushed right now. And I understand that I felt that read the book, you're going to find the places I felt crushed and on the ground after having faced those that really difficult decision of facing your darkness and brokenness. And I get it that's that self destructive hatred. There's a few things. One, remember, this is the beginning. This is not where you stay. This is not where you say. This is not who you are. You're not inherently broken. You are broken, but you're not inherently broken. You're made to be whole, and you will be whole if you continue this story. So this the beginning of a story where you will be whole two. You were made by an amazing artist, Creator God, and you are endowed with inherent value and beauty. So no matter where you have found yourself or what you have done that is never that is unchanged you, that is true about you, and two or three, or whatever it is, you know the as someone who writes stories, one of the things I know that creates the best story, you know, Joseph Campbell talked about this in the story structure, is the best stories are where something dead comes to life. And, well, obviously we see this in the story of Christ. And the thing I remember is, right now you might be in that quote dead place, right you have, you are feeling crushed and under, under the ground. But every great story that is the the moment before something comes to life. And so remembering that if you decide to follow God, if you decide to let this be the beginning of your journey, there's life on the other side of this death that you are experiencing, and it's beautiful and it's good, and it's whole, and it's where you were designed to be. And so I hope that somewhat practical, it's kind of hard. You know, a lot of the practical steps are learning, renewing your mind and changing the way you think about things, but I hope that, I hope that's helpful to anyone dealing with that right now out there, as

Joshua Johnson: 49:36

people, your readers, pick up your book, I'm the worst. I think that could be their step then to start to say, hey, recognize the brokenness within themselves. Be honest, be open. Start to see confession and forgiveness as valuable and freedom and they could open themselves up. So this book, I'm the worst. It's available in January. Everywhere books are sold, you could go get that. Nathan, I have a couple quick questions I like to ask at the end. So the first one, if you could go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give?

Nathan Clarkson: 50:12

Oh, that's a good one. If I could, oh, man, how many do you have a couple hours? Because 21 year old Nathan could use a lot of advice. I have to pick which lane I should offer this, this confused kid, some advice you have time. Take your time. Think things over. Don't let the stress and the movement of the world around us push you into things that you're that you don't know you should do. Rest, wait, lean on God and grow your wisdom. I'd say, Read as much as I would. I would have read more. I would have gotten more insight. I would have done more therapy? Yeah, I think that's what I would have garnered more empathy and told him to spend time doing those things, not feeling pressured to rush into life in any which direction. Anything you've been reading or watching lately, you could recommend I just read a book called The Hidden habits of genius, which is essentially about all the geniuses that we think about throughout the world, scientific, artistic and the things that they had in common. And hey, we all want to be geniuses, so maybe dive in. So that was a fantastically interesting sociological read that gave me a lot of insight into what intelligence actually looks like and how different it is from many of our conceptions. So that was a great book, too. So that's what I'm reading.

Joshua Johnson: 51:27

Nathan, people go out and get your book. How can they connect with you? Is there anywhere you'd like to point people to?

Nathan Clarkson: 51:32

Yeah, you can go to my website, Nathan clarkson.me, you can search my name, Nathan Clarkson on any of the socials, and you can listen to my weekly podcast called the overthinkers.

Joshua Johnson: 51:42

And Nathan, thank you for this conversation. Really loves chatting with you. And. Diving deep into our brokenness and our failures, and how confession and freedom can or forgiveness can bring us some freedom, that God actually sees us as beautiful and valuable, as loved, and that hey, as we're honest, we could actually walk through a beautiful life love, where we don't see people as enemies, but we actually see people as community. So thank you. Nathan, it was fantastic. Thanks for having me. You