Shifting Culture
On Shifting Culture we have conversations at the intersection of faith, culture, justice, and the way of Jesus. Hosted by Joshua Johnson, this podcast features long-form conversations with authors, theologians, artists, and cultural thinkers to trace how embodied love, courage, and creative faithfulness offer a culture of real healing and hope.
Shifting Culture
Ep. 392 Michael Leach - Faith Over Fear
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In this episode, I sit down with Michael Leach for a thoughtful conversation about fear, faith, and what it looks like to keep moving forward when clarity is hard to come by. We talk about his journey from growing up on the South Side of Chicago to working in the NFL and serving in the White House, but more importantly about how faith is formed through practice, resilience, and trust in uncertain seasons. We explore purpose and identity, calling versus assignment, burnout and boundaries, and why connection matters more than simply having the right words. This is an honest, grounded conversation about choosing faith over fear and learning how to live with courage and moral clarity in a complicated world.
Michael Leach is a distinguished leader whose career spans the NFL, national politics, and the White House. Born on the South Side of Chicago, his journey has shaped him into one of today’s most trusted and relatable voices on faith, leadership, and resilience. He began with the Chicago Bears, advanced to NFL Headquarters, helped lead and build the most diverse presidential campaign team in U.S. history, culminating in a historic victory, and later made history as the first-ever Chief Diversity & Inclusion Officer of the White House. Now Founder & CEO of BridgeTrust Partners, Leach helps leaders and organizations strengthen trust, purpose, and impact across industries.
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A person's resilience when they face a barrier is often a reflection of their focus. And I believe that a person's focus is also a reflection of their clarity. And it's really hard to be a resilient person, a resilient parent, a resilient leader, if you're not clear on a few things, right? Why you're here, what you value and what you're willing to change?
Joshua Johnson:Hello and welcome to the shift in culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create and the impact we can make. We long to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host. Joshua Johnson, we live in a moment when fear is doing a lot of work. It shapes our decisions, our reactions, our institutions, our culture and the way we live and imagine the future most of the time we don't even notice it. It's just feels normal. So in this conversation, I'm joined by Michael leach to talk about what it looks like to move from fear to faith in real and embodied ways. Michael shares his story from growing up on the south side of Chicago to working in the NFL to eventually serving in the White House, but more importantly, he reflects on how faith is formed through practice, resilience and hard choices made in uncertain moments. We talk about purpose and identity, calling versus assignment, burnout and boundaries, and why connection matters more than simply having the right words. This is a conversation about learning to live with moral clarity, courage and trust, even when the path forward isn't clear. You'll find this one grounding honest, and I think it's something that we deeply need right now. So join us. Here is my conversation with Michael Leach. Michael, welcome to shifting culture. Excited to have you on, excited to be here. Thanks, Joshua, we live in a culture today in America, especially that it is really fear based. There's a lot of fear controlling what we do, how we act growing up, where did you see fear starting to seep into your family, your culture and your life?
Michael Leach:Yeah, you know, it's a great question. And, you know, from the south side of Chicago, and you know, born and raised there, we moved to the south suburbs, thing went out right around seven years old or so. And I would say, a vivid early memory, you know, when fear sort of came in, and it also has to do with trust as well. Was when I was maybe around seven or eight years old, and I'll tell the story often. I mentioned it in the book about riding my bike and what it was like to ride my bicycle at that age on the south side of Chicago, my parents have very clear boundaries where I could ride my bike on the sidewalk. Then you can imagine this with me, I could only get my bike on the sidewalk and ride down to the second to last house on the block, never to the corner. I would ride there, stop, turn the bike around, and go back the other way, up and down, over and again. And those boundaries were real, Josh, because the dangers at the corner were real. And at the time, it felt restrictive. But I think looking back, you know, I did see something deeper that, you know, I was learning to trust my parents judgment, trusting that they could see farther than I could. And I think that same trust was shaped inside our home, especially even on New Year's Eve. I think of too while our other families would be celebrating, our nights look different because we would turn off all the lights, get down on our knees and pray together as a family, as in our neighborhood, people would often shoot firearms into the air at midnight, and if a house was lit, it could become a target. And so instead of fireworks, we prayed, and I remember as a young child on my knees whispering the same simple prayers to God, just ask Hey, bless my family with a new house one day, a big backyard and maybe even a swimming pool, and praying something, right? I didn't fully understand yet, but that God would give me a life and a job that would let me change the world in a different environment, and so all that to say. I say at that time, I didn't realize that those moments, I feel like it's a great question, it taught me really how to trust under authority and Jesus Calling books that I've read and things like that with my family growing up, faith wasn't abstract. It was practice. And I think that early US helped me later trust my Heavenly Father and believe that he too, while he says boundaries is not to limit us, but to protect us and prepare us. And so it was, it was formative, for sure. I mean,
Joshua Johnson:you contrasted the fear, especially with the with the boundaries of like, Hey, don't go all the way down to the corner, with some of the faith of your family. You just said, you know, it was, it was practical. It was faith was practice. It wasn't just a belief system. It was living out that faith. What was the example that your parents were setting? What did faith like, working it out? What did it look like, practically on the ground?
Michael Leach:Yeah, I would say faith working out. Practically. On the ground. I would one example that I would give at the end of each night, you know, regardless of which shift, you know, my dad was working, or where me and my brothers were running around when it was time to go to bed, they would huddle us all up and we would have we would call it the daily word, which is like the Jesus Calling books, where you have a date for each date of the calendar year, and we would each take turns, and so we would all alternate who would read the Daily word, read the verse, and pray to leave the family and pray before going to bed. So that was like a practical thing, and I think it taught me that you want to stay grounded and centered on something instead of nothing. And it sort of signaled to me that even with all the noise that comes up throughout the day, you want to start and end it with, that something else is practical. Is just saying something as simple as saying grace before meals and beyond that, I would say one of the more formative, vivid memories was during Christmas holiday, and before we could run to gifts and rip open everything. This is a very true story. My parents would put us in the car. We would drive to nearby hospital. And didn't know anyone personally in the hospital, but we would go to the to the children's section and ask if we could hand out gifts. So we would pack the car with maybe five to 10 gifts or so, and any children who will be spending the Christmas day in the hospital, we would pop into the room it was okay with their parents and just give it to them. Didn't have a name that we have one that was designated for boys and girls and and that was so from a practicality standpoint, I often say you only make a living by what you get, but you make a life by what you give, and that was like a message, and sort of getting beyond what you're getting and learning that life is really about what
Joshua Johnson:you're giving. So as you started to grow up, and, you know, moved into to high school, and one of the things that you really wanted was to be an athlete, and you wanted to, like, make that part of who you are. You started to make that as an identity marker. This is who I am. When that didn't pan out the way that you wanted to, what did it look like to hold on to something when the way that you shaped your life and your identity started to become stripped away from you.
Michael Leach:Thank God this is virtual, because you can't see how tall or short I am. It is true that, you know, I had a strong affinity for sports, basketball, football, track, you know, you name it. I did it. But when my athletic ability, and, you know, just wasn't measuring up to where the quality of play was at I had to figure out what was next, and we all kind of faced that what is next moment for us. And I credit my older brother Mitchell leach the second for this. And I loved sports, and I also loved business and wearing sort of suits and being called a businessman. And it was my brother who he worked at ESPN for a short stint, and he was the one who told me, Hey, Michael, how about you combine your love for both there's this degree, this area called sports management, where you can manage the business of sports, and it's growing rapidly. And that's where I learned about sort of that identity shift, if you will. And so I started learning about what it looked like. A lot of folks who were student athletes going into college were just getting because they had the word sports in it. I saw the industry and how incredibly quickly it was growing and moving, and so that's kind of what it looked like. It was me sort of heeding his insights and wisdom, doing the research and finding something that would allow me to not just have an influence, more than the influence in the players on the field, but have a greater influence than them by working in the field, if that makes sense. So that's what it looked like. And I served as a student manager the University of Illinois fighting the line night football team, and really started to get my chops on learning the intricacies of just football operations and what it looked like to run a team. And so that was kind of what it looked like. Was started by brother research and then putting it into action into college.
Joshua Johnson:I think a lot of people, when they they have a dream, they they set their sights on something I know in my own life, you know, as as an athlete, I, I had to switch and go, Okay, I'm going to be a coach. Then I was, you know, I was a college coach for a little while, a basketball coach, and then that got stripped away from me. So in those moments where I was like, Okay, I've been living my life in this one area. What is next? Who am I? I don't know who I am. And I got stuck for a few years, probably about five years, of not knowing where to go next. When those things happen in our life, a lot of times, fear creeps in and go, I'm I don't know what's going on. I don't know what's next. I'm scared. And people shut down. How do you step into something new when the fear starts to take over and you don't have clarity for. What's next?
Michael Leach:You know, I go back to this idea around sort of choosing purpose over preference, really God's purpose over your preference. I think a lot of us, we confuse the two, and what does that look like in real life? And you know, for me, I knew that I would be living on God's purpose, not just my preference, if I was really aligned with obedience and not just my comfort that that's those were that really helped me. I think preference is usually tied to what's familiar, right, what protects my image, my control, my timeline and purpose is tied to what God is forming in me, even when it costs me convenience. And so just like super practical with it, something that helps me sort of step into it and make that distinction. Is, the first is the peace test, right? Not comfort. Peace comfort says this is easy as this is right, even if it's hard. And when I'm walking in purpose, I can feel, you know, resistance around me, but I still have a settled clarity inside of me, if that makes sense. The second is the fruit test, right? When you give it a step into it, and once you get into it, like Jesus said, we'll know things by their fruit. And so I would often ask, is this producing right? Love, patience, humility, integrity, courage, or is it producing anxiety, ego, control and comparison, right? I think preference feeds sort of our flesh, but purpose grows our fruit. Third is really the motive test. You have to get honest. Joshua just asked if nobody clapped, nobody posted, if nobody liked it, that's a big one. Thank God they don't have a hate button on these social media ads. Nobody validated it. Right? Would I still do it right? Because preference loves applause, purpose loves obedience, and so he's shifting like that. That was the third piece. And then the fourth one is really the stewardship test, right? Asking, like, Who is this serving besides me? Anytime you looking to make a shift, especially an identity shift, if you will, purpose always has an other attached to it, even when God blesses you through it, it's rarely just for you, like blessings, shifts and seasons should start with you. They shouldn't stop with you. And so I would, you know, take that and make sure whatever I was doing was going beyond me and sort of my circle. And if that was then I knew I was kind of stepping into the right thing at the right moment.
Joshua Johnson:Think about your life now and you you growing up, going through University, working for the bears, going work in the White House, doing all of these things. How did your purpose stay the same? Did the purpose shift at all when you shifted different jobs positions? Or was the purpose really solid and it's just a different way to live out your purpose?
Michael Leach:Yeah, you know, it's a great question, and it speaks to this deeper thing that I was having a conversation with a friend about, about that distinction between, you know, your calling and your assignment, right? How your calling is going to be on a continuum. Doesn't matter where you end up or what role you find yourself in, you're going to be doing that calling in some way, shape or form, even though the environment may look different, whereas your assignment is temporary, right? It's often for a season. And so for me, you know, I knew that my calling and purpose, irrespective of where it was, who was the NFL, or what have you, it was, to be a good steward and encourage people to feel seen, heard and valued while living out their given purpose, right? And so, you know, I often use the example too. You know, when I was at the NFL, everyone communicates, few connect. And one of the biggest things I learned in working in sports was that communication alone wasn't enough, it was connection. And so my ability assistant to head coach, for example, in the bears, was really being able to articulate and represent, sort of the face and the leader of the franchise in a consistent way. When you look at, you know, time in a campaign or in the White House, you know, stepping into the White House as the first ever Chief Diversity Officer, man walking into a role with no blueprint, immense complexity, national visibility and and, you know, and often, right? Let's talk about it. The topic of dei can get so complex, right? And polarized lines with different people viewing different things in different ways. And so for me, even in that moment, for a very different context, but very universal principles. And so what I did, I simplified into three buckets, like, let's get past the letters of it. Let's just embody the spirit of it, right? And how we serve each other as colleagues and people across the country, in that there were fears, of course, right? But the faith is what anchored me and Jesus himself embodied Dei, when you think about it, right? The Great Commission go into all the world and make disciples, right? All the world, literally and physically, means diversity, equity. Jesus met people where they were, whether it was the Samaritan woman at the well, woman caught in adultery, Simon, Peter and Andrew, when they were fishermen, Lazarus, when he was dead, he went to where they were, but he loved them too much to leave them where they were, right? And you know, equality says everyone. Gets the same equity says everyone receives what they need, right? Because we all had starting points. And then the final piece inclusion, right? Jesus demonstrated that by actively embracing eating with right, healing societal outcasts, tax collectors, sinners, lepers, you name it, and so all of these things, right? That what a context shift. I really think that when you get past one of the letters of it, the titles of it, the cities of it, the the spirit of it, is going to remain on that continuum. And that's kind of what remained clear for me, season to season,
Joshua Johnson:that purpose is something the world needs right now, is what what you're bringing is not communication but connection. It is to be able to connect so people can feel seen and valued and included, known in in their spaces, being able to give people what they need so that they could move forward. A lot of the times right now, we have so many people talking, talking at each other. Nobody is connecting right there's not a lot of the connection that's happening here. How do you see that play out in our culture right now? How do you think our culture can move from trying to communicate to trying to connect?
Michael Leach:Yeah, you know, I think it's a great point. I think that at its core, you know, I'll say it this way, distance creates distortion, right? I think the more distant you are from a person, from a place, from a thing, the more distorted your view will be of that thing, right? And I think right now, because of the distance that has been created, you know, by media with, you know, technological devices that have sort of advanced folks are not going outside to play as often as they are when you talk about the youth now, they're very much inside the house on a device. The way we consume content has changed. The way we distribute content has changed. And so I think right now, from a connection standpoint, just first acknowledging that the connection isn't even there, you cannot change what you will not confront. And so just acknowledging that there is some distance between you and your neighbor, like, how often have you actually had a conversation with your next door neighbor who lives in your building or lives in your block that went beyond five minutes? You know, when you take it out the trash or whatever it is? And so just just acknowledging what it is, I think it's the first step secondarily, is really sort of embrace empathy, right? This, this idea of truly putting yourself in another person's shoes and genuinely seeking to understand what they're going through, even if you disagree with them, right? I think empathy has gotten lost. And anytime you know you know, you have a loss of him, and it's a learned skill, right? I think we should never stop learning, because life never stops teaching. And so really embracing empathy. And then I think beyond empathy is really choosing to be a bridge builder. It's kind of getting beyond your comfort zone and inviting them to that coffee, sending that text message. And oftentimes distance is not just literal, it's figurative, right? There's someone that you used to text with or call or speak with all the time that you haven't spoken with in months, right? That's normally a signal or indicator that there's some sort of distance there. So again, it goes back to distance and distortion, acknowledging it, embracing empathy and just choosing to be a bridge builder and going first in building that bridge.
Joshua Johnson:We need bridge builders. We need more bridges being built and less walls. If I'm looking at your story, reading your story and your book is fantastic because it tells so many of your your stories and how you did have to shift out of fear into faith to be able to move in a different direction. And you came up to a lot of different barriers in your story. There was barriers in a counselor saying you're not going to make it to the University of Illinois. And your mom said, Hey, God wants all of you, and he wants to use all of you. So you have, you know, barriers your internship with bears. You're like on your last day, you don't know what's coming up. And then something happens on the last day, there's constantly there's barriers, and then you start to break through some of those barriers. Yeah, when barriers start to hit, I think that's where fear really hits. People to say, Okay, I've finished. I'm done. How do you keep going past the barrier into what you think is your purpose?
Michael Leach:Yeah, you know what? It's a great question. I think that you know barriers look different for each and every one of us. You know everyone, every one, every viewer, every listener today is literally facing some measure of uncertainty, which, in many ways, is very for me, it was really getting very clear because, you know, the subtitle is harnessing resilience in the face of uncertainty. And I think that, you know, face barriers, it takes some resilience, and that's really what this book is going to, I think, help millions of people not only build. But but have clarity as they navigate the uncertainty, and I'll say it this way. You know, a person's resilience when they face a barrier is often a reflection of their focus, and I believe that a person's focus is also a reflection of their clarity. And it's really hard to be a resilient person, a resilient parent, a resilient leader. If you're not clear on a few things, right, why you're here, what you value and what you're willing to change, because we are, by human nature, changing and growing different by the second. And if you're, if you happen to be a believer listening to this, we also serve an unchanging God. Think about the paradox in that, right? And so I think, you know, for me, when I came up on any barrier, if it was someone saying one thing or the other, it's understanding why I was here, right identity. Luckily for me, I was fortunate and blessed to have parents who really sort of laid a solid foundation on speaking life into me, planting seeds of growth and planting seeds of purpose and exploration give me the framework, but the freedom to really experience God for myself. And then beyond, beyond that, I would just say that it really goes back to again, getting really clear on what you value. Values should remain on a continuum once they're established. Now, yes, you'll have different seasons. You may get informed of different things. But beyond just valuing, you know why you're here, is understanding what you actually value in practice, and then what you're willing to change. I say, you know whatever you are not changing. You are choosing, when you think about it, like whatever habit you're not changing, you're choosing whatever mindset you're not changing. You're choosing and season to season, as you get older, you're going to be faced with some choices and some changes, and it's up to you. And so I would say those three things is what really helped me have sort of the resilience in the midst of folks saying, Oh, you're not gonna get there. You're not gonna do this thing. Look, I'm on Joshua Johnson's podcast right now. So who are they to say what I can't do when I'm here and we both haven't made all the decisions we've made in our life, Joshua to be, at this moment, at this time, doing what we're doing. Fantastic.
Joshua Johnson:You know, when you have seen exclusion, I think part of your purpose is, it's to see inclusion, right, and to people to be seen. So for example, when you were the University of Illinois and all all the black students were in in a place where they kind of had to be bused into the quad, and you're feeling like there's exclusion. You've seen it in other areas. You've seen it constantly throughout your life. How do you respond to exclusion with agency to build inclusion and not just resentment and bitterness?
Michael Leach:Yeah, you know, it's a great question, and this, you know, can can surface in so many different ways. You know, if it's one thing that I've learned, and I mentioned and I point to this idea around exclusion all throughout the book, and very deliberately, it's that the goal of me sharing some of the stories I share in the book that's going to be very eye opening for a lot of folks across the world is that exclusion can come for anybody. Right come for a student. It can come for Chief Diversity Officer in the White House. It can come for a professional athlete on the field. It can come for a late night TV host, as we've seen, right? Exclusion can come for anyone. And I think you know to answer your question, number one, it's going back to what I said. You cannot change what you will not confront and and and whatever you're not changing. You are choosing. And so having some measure of intentionality, I think, becomes paramount, into actually not falling victim to resentment that can creep in. And then not for nothing. I think you know, to a big thing for for sort of exclusion, is make sure that you go past what I just stated at the first and being an active participant and getting involved. When's the last time you've gone to a city council meeting, or the last time you've volunteered in your church, or the last time you didn't wait for you know, your spouse to ask you to do the dishes, basic everyday things, right? And then beyond that community, I think a lot of times, exclusion can get exasperated when you do life in isolation. And I think community becomes even more paramount as sort of the anecdote to sort of resentment, because exclusion is going to, you know, sort of pop its head up in these different moments, even with your friend grouping in circles, right? You didn't get that invitation to that party, but you saw them post about it. Where were you, right? And so I think just doing life in community, and I think having the humility to recognize that we're all human, and giving people grace, but especially yourself, Grace. And I think when you are intentional, when you're an active participant in. You go first, and when you do life in communities to sort of pressure test and check your own biases, you have a way of getting beyond the sort of act of exclusion itself and getting to the real world solutions for it.
Joshua Johnson:You write about the about Colin Kaepernick and and what happened there in the NFL, and talking about how fear shapes some of the systems and the institutions that we live in. So we've been talking a lot about the individual, about our own lives. How does fear keep institutions static and not actually help bring about change inclusion the places that they really need to move forward to see health and growth.
Michael Leach:Yeah, you know what I would say, fear, you know, it's, it's a it's a funny thing, because we often fear is often disguised as safety and and, you know, I think a lot of sort of things that keep, you know, organizations, institutions, people, leaders, churches, you name it, sort of stagnant and not growing. It's when they go to the knee jerk reaction of the fear of the unknown. And I think you know, in the context of that, from an institutional standpoint, it really goes back to that distancing that we were talking about earlier. I think when you're distant from a person, a thought, a mindset, a community, a policy that one, you haven't heard of, or two, you haven't engaged with. It's really, really hard to be informed and to inform what you're doing, whether it be through a product, a good or a service for whoever it is, wherever you are. And so I think the starting point is really, you know, again, being very intentional, to go first and to reach out and to sit down and have the conversation, right? You cannot change what you will not confront. But secondarily, I think it's really, really beholden on leadership, right? I think everyone rises and falls on leadership. And I think in many ways, anytime you elevate leadership that isn't pressure tested on what it looks like to demonstrate empathy in real time, it's really hard to inform your organizational or institutional decisions. And that goes back again to this idea around just inclusion. How can we make sure that you know more than just the voices that agree with you are at the table that so that you can at least hear and learn from them before you action on something. And I think every from an organizational culture standpoint, everyone uses this term culture. Culture is just a set of consistent patterns that people follow for the way they think, communicate and act, all grounded in their shared assumptions and beliefs. That's Michael Watkins from the first 90 days. And so that definition of culture for me really crystallized. For me, what it because it's not what you put on a website or one poster board. That's what I think what's missing. I think it's the consistent patterns. And going back to this idea around patterns is getting lost, and I think that's what institutions and leaders need to tap into a little bit more.
Joshua Johnson:What's on the website are usually idealized values. Like, this is our ideal. This is something that's aspirational values, but we actually then have our actual, lived out values because of the patterns, the consistency that we have in our organization, whatever it is when we do have these idealized values, and this is where we want to get to, but we're not living up to it. We're actually doing something totally different than that. What are some steps to help us move into a new pattern, to get to a more idealized value, the things where we we actually say we want to be there
Michael Leach:in the chapter. So patterns over potential. It's one of my favorite chapters, because we often conflate the two. I think you know, potential is what we hope will happen. Patterns are what keeps happening and uncertain seasons, right? I think confusing it towards one of the fastest ways, like you said, to stay stuck and so to get practical. You know, I generally run a few practical checks, right? I think the first one is really the consistency check, right? I ask, what has happened repeatedly, not occasionally, right? One good week doesn't outweigh 12 bad ones, right? I think patterns always out vote moments, because every decision you make, every action you take, it's a vote for the kind of person you believe yourself to be. Heard to say it this way, it's it's impossible to consistently behave in a way that is inconsistent with how you already think or believe yourself to be. And so the first is, just do the consistency check. Second is the trajectory check, I think, is there measurable growth over time, or am I just recycling the same conversations, promises and explanations? Growth doesn't have to be fast, like I'm gonna say that again for the folks in the back, growth doesn't have to be fast. We got we got air fryers and microwaves to tell us all. Wise, but it should be visible, right? Growth should be visible. And so the second is just, is there measurable growth over time? The third is really the fruit check, right? Again. Like I said earlier, Jesus said, you'll know a tree by its fruit. And so I asked, Is what I'm doing right now producing peace, integrity, humility and endurance, or is it producing confusion or anxiety or self justification, potential excites you, fruit sustains you. And there's a difference, right? And then the last one is really the council check. So kind of going back and pointing to this idea around community, this becomes paramount. Patterns become clearest when other people name what you've normalized. And I think wise counsel helps you see what proximity hides. And you can be so close up to something Joshua, and you don't, you can't see him until you take it back. And so all that to say patterns matter. And because you know God is also working through patterns and be provisioned guidance or faithfulness. And so it's not really ignoring reality. It's really trusting God within it. And so that's the practical steps that I taken that has sort of helped me make sure I wasn't sort of even falling victim to like, getting fixated on potential of something and not just recognize the patterns of something.
Joshua Johnson:So I want to get into that potential. There's so many people that have potential and they believe like there's potential for this, or that they never reach that potential. Part of it is because they don't have perseverance or resilience when when barriers hit to reach that potential and to change patterns then, like, what does it mean to go and reach potential? Is it something that we want to go after, or do we want to be grounded in something different than saying I need to be the very best, because I have potential to be the very best in this or that?
Michael Leach:Yeah, you know, it's a great question. I would say this that you know that there's, there's a benefit and value to both, right? And I'm not in any way, shape or form, suggesting that, hey, run away from that potential. You better get to some discomfort and not enjoy what you're doing. And there's a host of things around suffering and all of the stuff like that that comes with just being a believer and persevering. But potential does give you hope. Potential is sort of a signal and an indicator as to what's possible. And I think, you know, in the end, is one of the things that will remain right, faith, hope and love. We know the greatest of those is love, but hope is part of it. And I think hope is connected to potential. And so for me, I think you really want to get clear on the season you're in going back to drawing that distinction between your calling and your assignment. You may be in a role right now, in an organization right now, in a church right now, even a city right now that is, you know, very temporary that comes with its set of challenges, but you may be missing the very thing he's called you to do or receive in that season, if you're busy looking down the road, right. And so in this idea around potential, like, how do you know? You know, again, if you go through those checks, again, measurable growth is it actually, you know, producing fruit, not confusion, anxiety, and, and, and I think beyond that, you know, it really comes down to making sure you're very clear on what you are called to do in that moment, and having sort of a regular routine to hear his still, small voice and not be super preachy, but really getting quiet. How do you start your day and how do you end your day has a heck of a lot to do with what happens during the middle of that day. And I, and I've said it this way, you know, it's really and I've, I've had to learn this just working in the NFL and even in the White House, where, like, there were some days Joshua, where it's like you felt you were, you ever been, think, like you were in the right place, doing what no God told you to do. But the outcomes weren't showing up the way you at envision them to show up, and it's in those moments that you have to surrender. That's what I'm getting. That's what I'm really trying to get to, is that, you know, it's through our surrendering that God does His establishing, right? God can establish anything you don't first surrender. And that, literally, by my definition, is the nature of faith. It says I have to first release what's in my hand, so that God can then release what is and so that's how, you know, not to distinguish potential and your purpose in reaching it. It's really surrender. And it's not going to always feel like, you know, a triumph, but it certainly will feel like peace. I can guarantee you that
Joshua Johnson:when we're going after something, trying to have faith, not given to fear, to move into the spaces that God has called us into. Oftentimes, we work ourselves to the bone in a place where we hit burnout. We hit things that are unsustainable. We can't sustain them anymore. We. You have hit places like that. Why are you hitting those places? Why are you hitting burnout? Why do you what was your assessment, and then, how did you start to move back into health?
Michael Leach:It's a great question. I feel like I'm on Oprah Super Soul Sunday now, Joshua, have you started crying already? You know what to answer your question as succinctly as I possibly can, because I certainly hit moments where it was like, you know, what am I doing rather be physically, mentally, emotionally, and there was a season I'd never forget during the campaign where he had this backdrop of covid 19, a ton of social unrest. I was sort of the leader charged with not just building an organization, culture remotely for hundreds of staff and trying to win a presidency of the United States, but also being the intake valve for a lot of people, thoughts, emotions and just trauma and struggles, right? And I hit, I hit a wall in this moment where I just, you know, I really wasn't making time for myself to really process what was even happening in the world as a black man and leader, to process, you know, what God was saying, because I was so inundated with what everyone else was saying. So for me, you know, you hit a wall when you've lost sight of what and why you're doing what you're doing. It was almost like on autopilot, and that's a dangerous place to be in. And so for me, you know when I when I hit that wall, I had to pause that to check my my rhythm. And if you look at your calendar, check what's on your calendar and making sure, like you're adding something, like I had this thing where I would put something on my calendar and I would call it production time, even though I wasn't meeting with someone, just so someone couldn't land time on there. So I can use that time deliberately to, like, get in front of God and say, Hey, I need my cup to be filled. Going back to community, actually reaching out. It takes courage to grow up and become who you really are, and you can only do that in community, not in isolation. And so for me, it was reaching out to family being vulnerable. I think there is a healthy balance between having, you know, your church community, but then actually being in counseling and going to therapy and just, you know, talking through things that way. And so that was a practical thing that that's helpful. And then lastly is just remaining open to things looking different after you come out of that sort of space and community and being filled up, because you can't pour from an empty cup. And I think for me, it was reaching out to community. It was sort of actually being consistent in my outreach, whether it be family or therapy. And then the third and final piece, what did I do to sort of get out of it. It was to make very deliberate choices in a very intentional manner, to say no. I think a lot of times, a lot of us, we can get caught up in saying yes to everything. And I think that saying yes to anything is what ultimately shapes your life at the end of your life, but it's what you say no to that makes you available to say yes to the right thing. When it comes like a lot are saying yes to so much, this invitation, this opportunity, this product, stay off of Amazon, folks, and I know it's it's tempting, got the sale going on, or just get into a place where you can say no to keep yourself available to receive the peace and the rest that you need to actually perform at a high capacity level in whatever you're doing as a parent, as a leader, as a friend, and so that, that's what I would say, helped me a lot, was kind of getting quiet, putting time on the calendar and doing some intentional outreach
Joshua Johnson:for a lot of people listening like that time in our country and what you were Doing and the the role that you were placed in, and people bringing their own traumas to you, for you to, like, hold the collective trauma, almost the collective trauma of a nation, and you're trying to to hold that that's that's heavy, and That's something no one person should have to carry alone? Yeah, there's a lot of times today, I think we're back into a place where there's a lot of collective trauma, just by just daily videos that we're seeing of dehumanization that's happening in our country. We have more collective trauma right now, and people are holding it and putting it on their shoulders, how do we then share that load together and not just let it drown us individually?
Michael Leach:Yeah, yes, it's a great question. I say that you know, because there's a lot of folks like but when I talk to friends and family of mine now, you'll be amazed at just how many folks are people are carrying more than they're admitting. I think what people are projecting publicly isn't always what they're dealing with privately. They're functioning, but they're tired. They're producing, but they're anxious. And I think, you know, to what you were saying. In a divided culture, fear becomes a lifestyle. I think, fear of the future, fear of loss, fear of being misunderstood, fear of the other side. And that's in part why I did this book, because, you know, it's, it's, it's a roadmap, like while Part one is my story, part two is really clarity for the reader or listener, story and and I and, you know, I say it this way to kind of set up the answer. The enemy's agenda is destruction. His strategy is division, and his tactic is offense, right? And, you know, chances are you're going to be offended by the people God has placed in your life at some point in time it's just going to happen. Buckle up and prepare for it. And if you leave that offense unchecked over time, offense leads to division. You stay divided long enough, I'm not going to respond to that text, so I'm not going to do engage with them. If stay in Division long enough that division will turn to the destruction of that relationship, of that company, of that community, and, yes, even of that country. And this is not just principally true. This is spiritually true. And so I think, to answer your question, it becomes that much more important to make sure that you muster up the courage. It says, Take courage. Do not be afraid. I'll be with you wherever you go. Go first in that outreach and get comfortable in the discomfort of having a conversation that may not end the way you want, but at least you're having a conversation because you can be offended and feel the thing, but the division is when it gets dangerous, and so for me, it's going first having the conversation, Having an empathetic ear to actually listen without judgment, share your piece, right, whatever that is, but then have enough resolve to be okay if they don't agree with what you say. And I think you know that, in and of itself, can you know, I think, contribute to a great deal of continuity that people realize, you'd be surprised at what will come out of a conversation if you just have it, and a lot of folks don't even have it.
Joshua Johnson:You learned anything there about the the fear that holds people back to change, especially working in the White House right as you're working through types of of of change that the country is like, hey, this may be going too fast for me. We go into a place of a quarter of the country or so, or, like, we want to just stay where we were. We don't want to move into the future. Is there a way of, like, larger institutional or systemic or cultural shifts and changes that we can make that may be okay because they're not too fast for some people, because I know there's always gonna be early adopters. There's gonna be people that are excited about this and go forward, and it takes a lot of work to get those last big chunk of people to say this change is good and it's good for us, our organization, the culture, society, we're going to move in this direction. Have you learned anything about the, maybe even the this pace of change that we should take?
Michael Leach:Yes, it's a great question. It's a loaded one. We're gonna have to say that for all day interview. For that one, I would say the pace of change. Because I think the short answer is that, you know, no institution, no community, no country, no company, is the same, right? It's not a monolith. And so I think it gets really, really, really important that we contextualize it based on the environment or the locality that we're talking about instituting that change in the first place, right? I say it this way that you know, some of the greatest leaders that I've been around, that I've been fortunate to serve underneath or alongside, understands that you have to listen and learn before you can truly lead. And I think a lot of leaders, some prime ministers, diplomats, you know, you name it. We have it. They try to do it the opposite way. They try to lead first, to make a good first impression. Over time, they learn the way they're leading isn't working. And then they try to start listening when it's too late and you've already lost the relational capital needed to effectuate the change, going back to your question around pace. And so I think the listening part becomes really, really paramount in terms of, like, you know what change is good? Change, again, it depends on where the change is being instituted at, and it also depends on who you had at the decision making table to inform what you're even proposing in this place. And so I think getting really clear on what does listening look like at an institutional, organizational and communal level, right? Going back to your local city council meetings that happen, going to your, you know, fireside chats or town halls that happen, going back to, if you're in a position of influence, you know that going just speaking directly to our leaders for a quick moment here. The good news about being a leader is that you have a broader view of what you're leading and latitude to shape it. The bad news is that you're much farther away from the front lines, which means much more likely to get filtered information. And so like to kind of distill a very convoluted answer to a simplistic thought and principle that anyone can take and run with is get really clear on what listening looks like, then inform what you learned from that listening into your strategy before you roll it out. I think just that sequential process I think should inform the pace of change, because I couldn't arbitrarily just say this is what works and doesn't work, because it would just be arbitrary and just misinformed. I think it really clear on what that looks like and what it means for you in your context, in your country.
Joshua Johnson:So as you wrote your book and you started to reflect on the difference between faith and fear, did anything shift in your definition of faith and your definition of fear? Where have you landed now? What do you see as both of those things, faith and fear.
Michael Leach:I feel like fear is, is, is multi layered. It has so many different definitions. But I don't think fear is always the villain. I'll say that. I think fear is a signal. I think sometimes, from a biological standpoint, right? There's self preservation and things like that when you're in danger and stuff. But like, just from a holistic standpoint, fear is often a signal of something that you need to pay attention to. And I would say that faith is really obedience with trust, irrespective of what's in front of you. And for me, as I got into the process of writing this book, you know, I just shared this with someone else, maybe the Jesus Calling podcast where it was just like, you know, fear crept up in every moment of this process of writing it, fear of sharing too much, fear of not sharing enough, fear of what someone may or may not think, and, and, and, I kid you not, at each moment when I was starting to go through that rapid cycle, God would come in and say, this process is an act of faith, and you're not writing this for someone else. You're writing this because I'm going to bless someone else through what you started and what I'm doing through you. And so for me, the definitions have evolved, but at its foundational, most truest form, fear is usually a signal, what am I retreating from, or what am I thinking, or where am I focusing? At that my focus isn't on like I always go back to the story, going back to that biblical story of walking on water towards Jesus, and he called out, hey, if it's you call for me. Jesus said that. Peter said, and he was going to walk, walk towards him. And he started doing the impossible and walking towards him. And it wasn't until he started noticing the waves and the wind right taking his focus of who called him in the first place did he start to sink. And then Jesus pulled him up right away, right again. Going back to resilience, it's really hard to be resilient if you lose your focus, and it's really hard to have focus if you're not. And for me, those definitions is fear is really a signal. What do I need to be paying closer attention to? And what am I focused on? That's not the right thing, and faith is really just obeying what He tells you to do in that moment, irrespective of what you feel in that moment.
Joshua Johnson:But even the other disciples didn't get out of the boat and didn't walk on water, they didn't have any faith to get out on that water, and Peter did. So even when we do have faith, we walk out, sometimes we're going to fall, but hey, Jesus was there to catch him. So get back up and keep going. A couple really quick questions here at the end. Michael, one, if you go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would
Michael Leach:you give a 21 year old self? I would say, stay the course and don't overthink about what others are thinking about. I think a lot of folks, if we're not careful, we allow them to project their opinions and advice on what we should do and when we should do it and how we should do it. But I learned really quickly that a person's good intentions doesn't always equal good advice. And so I would tell my 21 year old self that it's good
Joshua Johnson:anything you've been reading or watching lately. Recommend reading or
Michael Leach:watching lately? You know what? Yeah, I would say this, you know, a good book. And you know, if you'd have, besides reading my own book, just preparing for this season, about to step in, there's a, there's a beautiful book called The One Thing by Gary Keller and Jay pappasen and and it talks about, I try to read it once, you know, every you know, a few years or so, but if you haven't, you should. And it really talks about, how to, you know, really focus on the thing that you absolutely should be focused. And it's super practical, super helpful. And it teaches you how to ignore the things you could do so that you can focus on the things. You should do. And so I would say that's been like a really, really helpful read. I have twin daughters right now. They're three years old. God help me? Pray for me. If you're listening and watching, they're just a bundle of joy. But it does come with a lot, you know, as a parent and when you're trying to do what God's called you to do. And so that's why you know this book. I know, you know, I give that those practical sort of tools that folks can kind of take and apply, and if a decision gets heavy months, they can come back to it. And so I would say that book has helped quite a bit. And even, you know what I put in part two of the book of faith over fear has helped me as well, kind of go back to my own writing. Because sometimes, like, man, you preaching to yourself. Keep going. Mike, keep going. Yeah, you
Joshua Johnson:are preaching to yourself. You're preaching to us. And it is very, very good. I love faith over fear. This is a great book. It's not just inspirational with your story, which it is, but it is very practical, like you said. And there are lots of places where we could start to implement these practices within our life, so that we can start to press through, build some resilience and continue to move forward and have some moral clarity in our lives, find our purpose, know where we're going and continue to get towards that goal. So it's fantastic. Michael, where would you like to point people to, either to get the book or where you like to have people connect with you. They connect with what you're doing. Yes.
Michael Leach:First of all, thank you so much, Joshua, for your time and just your stewardship of this platform. I'm humbled and just grateful to be a part of it. Visit, my faith over fear.com. That's my faith over fear.com. I said my faith over fear because I want you to take ownership, right? I believe there's a lot of people, under the sound of our voices, Joshua, that they're on the cusp of a significant breakthrough, and they're facing some uncertainty in some area, in family and finances and in some area. And I think this is going to be that thing that's going to really give them not just the clarity but the resilience they need in the uncertainty to get over the hump once and for all, and so I think it's gonna help millions of people, and I hope that your viewers and listeners make sure that they're one of them.
Joshua Johnson:Well, Michael, thank you for this conversation. Let's have some faith over fear. It was fantastic. So thank you.
Michael Leach:Love it. Thank you, Joshua, you you.
