Ep. 401 Kendall Mariah - The Anchoring Tether in the Midst of Soul Friction

What do you do when your faith no longer fits the formulas you were given? In this episode, I sit down with Kendall to talk about what she calls “soul friction” — the holy discomfort that surfaces through disillusionment, infertility, adoption, racial awakening, purity culture, and watching the church miss the way of Jesus. We explore anger, courage, embodiment, and what it really means to pray “on earth as it is in heaven.” This is a conversation about tending the fire instead of letting it burn everything down and choosing courageous faith over easy certainty.

Kendall Mariah is a lifestyle content creator, photographer, and brand strategist whose honest storytelling has cultivated a deeply connected online community. As a business owner, military spouse, and adoptive mom, she speaks authentically about the intersections of faith, identity, and everyday life. Her debut book, THIS LITTLE FIRE OF MINE, releases in February 2026.

Kendall's Book:

This Little Fire of Mine

Connect with Joshua: jjohnson@shiftingculturepodcast.com

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Transcript

Kendall Mariah: 0:00

The best way that we can become better humans, better followers of Christ, is to listen to each other's stories, and when we understand and listen to other people's stories, I think we can be better stewards of love and compassion.

Joshua Johnson: 0:22

You Hello and welcome to the shift in culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create and the impact we can make. We long to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host. Joshua Johnson, what do you do when your faith doesn't fit as neatly as it used to when the formulas stopped working, when the church culture you inherited feels misaligned with the Jesus you're trying to follow, when anger, grief, infertility, racial awakening and disillusionment all collide, and you're told, just don't worry. In this conversation with Kendall Moriah, we talk about what she calls soul friction, that holy discomfort that shows up when something isn't right. It's not rebellion, it's not weakness, it's a sacred signal worth paying attention to. So we explore how faith is forged in the fire. We explore why certainty isn't the goal, but courage is how anger can either burn the house down or light the way, and what it actually means to pray on earth as it is in heaven. So if you felt the tension but didn't have language for it, this conversation should give you some so let's step into the friction. Here is my conversation with Kendall. Moriah, Kendall, welcome to shifting culture. So excited to have you on thanks for joining me.

Kendall Mariah: 1:45

Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here and to hang out with you today. Well, you

Joshua Johnson: 1:49

should be, because this is an exciting place to be, and we're gonna have a good conversation. And I want to start into a place what you call soul friction in your book, and the friction of a thinking something may not be right. There may be some disillusionment, but this may not be a bad thing. Where did you first sense that soul friction wasn't just a bad thing, but it may be actually a sacred thing. I've always

Kendall Mariah: 2:15

lived with it. There's kind of that acknowledgement phase, and then there's the naming it phase, with anything that you experience, and I have lived with it as long as I've lived with God. And just as I've always believed and just had this innermost being sense that God exists, I've also had this propensity to be like, I don't know if that's quite right, or I want to poke a hole in that, or ask a question like that, is just my nature in anything. And thankfully, I was raised by parents that were willing to answer all 1000 my questions, and that I was in a church home that fostered questions, and my little neurodivergent brain that was not satisfied. Well, that's just the way it is, or that's what the Bible says. Well, why did they say it? Who wrote it? You know, how do we know that's exactly what they said? Were you there? You know, I was the kid constantly trying to poke holes in it. And so the friction started there with just natural questions as a child. But it never pushed me away from faith. It always pulled me closer. Because, again, I had that innate sense that, yes, God does exist. And I think that was the the anchoring tether, because I could just, just in the same way, I could feel that tingly negative feeling, there was a tingly positive end of like, I'm not alone. God is real. The rest is figure outable. The rest is conversation. And so that was my whole childhood existence, my whole teenage existence. But it wasn't until post college, when I was outside of my small town, I was 3000 miles away in Washington State, I was, you know, out of the south and out of my routine, that I really realized that not everyone approached faith in the same way, and that where I had been fostered in a community that was okay with questions, and even if they kind of just nodded it off with well, that's just Kendall, but they at least entertained me and never made me feel silly for it. I realized that that was not only not the norm, but friction could come not just from questions, but from experiences of like, oh, this is not what I was told I would experience. Or I was told, if I do A plus B, then C will happen, and then it didn't, and then it didn't again. And I'm like, Okay, God, I did the formula, I checked all the boxes. Things are still not working out, feeling the friction of that, then also seeing Christians in real time. As an adult, with my frontal cortex developed not like Christ, and I'm like, Y'all, what is going on, you know? And having to learn things like the meaning of cognitive dissonance and understanding that you. Even though I wasn't raised with a real law, you know, fundamental mentality about scripture, a lot of people were, and that's going to change their experience with Christ. And so friction can come in different forms, in different seasons, but I put a word and a name to it out of that season in 2017 of just a pattern recognition of, okay, these are all moments that I've seen other parts of faith or people or friends walk away from, you know, dealing with things like suicide of a close, loved one, mental health crisis going through, you know, purity culture coming out on the other side, and how that affected them. And you know, all the way through my infertility journey, gosh, different things, all the way up to 2020, and adopting transracially, when I could have walked away and when I noticed a lot of people were deconstructing that tether still as a child of knowing, Hey, God exist, but everything else, I've got to figure out for myself, and not just because some older excuse my language, but white man said it behind a pulpit when I was a child. And even those are trusted voices, and I'm still grateful for them today, I needed to make sure I believed it and I knew it was true for myself and based on, based on the character of God that I had seen in the Bible and through Jesus's teachings,

Joshua Johnson: 6:24

seems like you went through a phase where any good story goes through, which is out in the wild, in the wilderness, in the desperation, trying to say, I don't really have everything that I need right now, and I'm trying to figure out, what tools do I need? What wisdom can I take? Yeah, so I could take it with me and move and grow. I think this is this happens to a lot of people where this is the thing that you know, their life and their faith can be forged in this fire of friction. Some people like, get their fire forged in the midst of that, and they attend to it. And some people say, hey, my fire is gone. Like, I don't have it anymore. What the darkness dampened my fire so much that it's now out and I'm just retreating back, not being changed and moved deeper into my faith. How do you think that season helped you tend to your fire to actually grow deeper in who you are, in your faith, your relationship with Jesus and your family?

Kendall Mariah: 7:41

You know, have you ever been in a season? Maybe it was mental health, or just health in general, or life, I don't know, but, like, it's just hit the fan, like everything that could go wrong will go wrong. Like my mental health was taint, my physical health was taint. I wasn't near family, like I was in the fetal position in my, you know, 400 square foot bedroom corner, crying, and all I could say was, Jesus hold me. I couldn't think of one Bible verse. I couldn't think of one anything. And in that moment, I would find just tiny moments of peace, when in the rest of my mind was anxiety and chaos, and it was just little, tiny moments of that didn't last forever that weren't I didn't just get covered with this blanket, and everything was perfect and fine after that, but it was just enough peace that I could make a phone call to my mom, who could talk me down and say, you know, everything's gonna be fine. She could help ground me, and then it would be just enough courage, or just enough strength to get out the house and go for a walk get some vitamin D. And it was finding God and faith in those tiny moments and just the tiniest moment. Sometimes, I'm telling you fleeting like a flicker, and letting that build like I think sometimes we want this, like road to Emmaus experience, or we want a light bulb moment where just all of a sudden it makes sense, or God reveals to us why these things had to happen. But I think we, as we do with a lot of things, over complicate it, or we try to go too deep, too fast, and so I kind of had to think about it in a way that my mom treated me when I was going through mental health is like, treat me like a small child. Make sure I was eating, make sure I was sleeping Good. Get me outside so I have some fresh air and some light. Okay, how do we take that back to a faith of a child? How do I take that back? How would I treat my child if she needed hope? What would I say to her? What would I point her to? And it's not the complexities of faith. I'm not sitting there trying to figure out, you know, secondary and tertiary things that we want to argue all day long. It was just the Do I have hope, and the fact that there is a greater being out there orchestrating things, and that He is gracious enough to acknowledge i. Exist, okay. Can I hold that? Can I accept that? Can I believe in that, that if the birds can get food, then I can maintain for today, you know, like those little moments, and I think that's where you start to build confidence in yourself and your relationship with God, to go deeper and to realize that. I think the big part we're missing is faith is meant to be intimate. A walk with Christ is meant to be an intimate thing. I think that social media, and you know, even evangelical culture of the last kind of 50 years has in a lot of ways perverted that, and I hate to use that word, but we see a display of faith as watch me, watch me read my Bible, or look at this really cool shot of me worshiping, or follow me to see how to be a better Christian, when in actuality, you know, how weird would it be if I posted at least it would be for myself, the intimate moments of my relationship with my husband. But intimate means closeness. It means vulnerability, and you build that intimacy and vulnerability through one proximity, but two is time and duration of time and just the two of you. And so I think just finding those tiny moments that you can build some trust in, in that relationship and believe that it's worth believing in, and starting there, and, you know, for me, it was, you know, then you start to notice the little God winks, I mean, and it's when you're in deep down, in that far out, and your flicker so light. Sometimes the god wink would be like, Oh my gosh, I have my six months old in the backseat, and I got the parking spot beside the return cart thing at Target. And that sounds so silly, and that is the least theological Thing, Thing You may ever hear me say, but I would literally be like, Thank you Lord for you know this little flicker of hope that I have today, that you see me okay, and letting that build, and the repetition of that, and it's amazing. I'm sure you've talked to other people that talk about, you know, how even the neurons in your brain rewire as you rework those those thought patterns, and how effective it is, which, again, helped my mental health. It helped my spiritual health. It all went hand in hand. But really, I think my my thing, for a lot of people, is take it back to the basics, like, if, if, if you want to relate it to, how would I help my child in this situation, you know, if they're just in the corner having a tantrum, as I was, how would I help bring them down, give them peace and hope? Or, you know, go in in the other direction of, okay, if my relationship with my spouse was fractured in some way or something happened. How do I reframe this and build some intimacy back? Is it through time and trust in Scripture? Is it through prayer? What does that look like and not feel like a public display of affection or worship is going to be the answer to that, because I think that has really messed things up for us. I think that's what it looks like to be a good Christian when that can all be smoke and mirrors.

Joshua Johnson: 13:09

I think that smoke and mirrors part, I think some people take something like Jesus saying, do not worry. And he says, do not worry a lot, and he means it literally and seriously and deeply. But I think some of it, people take it into, Hey, I just need some smoke mirrors. I'm going to, like, live a facade of my life and forget about, like, the the real, tangible, gritty stuff that's actually happening in life. And I'm just going to not think about it. I'm not I'm just gonna let it over there, and so then I don't have to worry right about these things. What do you think that Jesus really is trying to get at when he says, Do not worry. That holds both our grief and our gratitude and our hope and our peace, all of it together?

Kendall Mariah: 13:59

First of all, I mean, that is so good, because we're seeing so much of that right now where people just are wanting to check out, because it is so much to hold there is so much like on your personal level, in your community, you know, and on the national, world stage, there's a lot to try to process right now and and the tendency is to want to check out. But again, I think it goes back to intimacy, and I'm someone that is an overthinker. I need to know a plan. But when I hear my husband say, Don't worry, I've got to figure it out. Is not because it eliminates the problem that I'm stressed out about or anything, but it's because I trust that he's handling the details we convolute acknowledgement with sometimes worrying or stressing, like you can admit that you're stressed or that you're overwhelmed or that you're overthinking. Like worrying encapsulates a lot of emotions, a lot of feelings, a lot of things. I think God wants us to turn with it face that emotion get to the body. Bottom of it. Where does it come from? But you know, as I mentioned before, as the birds do not have to worry. We don't have to worry. It's not because that's not a real problem. You might be facing a very real problem, but it's a it's a belief that while I'm doing the best I can, he's worried working out the details. Because I don't know about you, but when has it ever not caught up with you when you've ignored something like whether that's an emotion, whether that's a person, whether that's a situation. So there's only so long that we can throw Theology at ourselves or at people that says, Don't worry. Or I looked at my husband one day last week, Josh and I said, I so bad. Wish I could be one of those Christians that was a let go and let God person like, just that just lived in this euphoric mentality of, like, I don't have to worry, and just let go and let God. And it was just completely, like, almost checked out. And I was like, I'm jealous. I am jealous that that is not my makeup, but the way that he built me as I'm hyper aware of way too many things simultaneously. And so for me, my do not worry in the way that I interpret it is one. He is with me. He is with me in the worry, just as my husband is, you know, or you know my mother is, she's my other safe person, but it's also like he's in the details. So even though I might be feeling these feelings, I don't have to feel the feelings and figure out the details. And how much easier is it to let an emotion pass when you're also not having to think about logistics, when you're also not having to worry about the big picture. Because I think one of the reasons that I talked to some friends that have been disenfranchised with faith their church, is because their feelings were dismissed for so long. You know, they felt crazy. Or are you saying that I'm not depressed? Are you saying like this is not a real problem, or pray it away so there's no acknowledgement when I think Jesus acknowledged people's emotions, they he acknowledged their fears. And he said, even though you feel this way, let me be a part of it. It was a not even to we. Sometimes we just want to give it to him and run away in the other direction. But I think of it more, and I talk about the book is like the Jewish practice of sitting Shava, you know someone just coming alongside you. Come on, someone coming to help bear the burden. It doesn't mean it alleviates it so you don't have anything to worry about. It just means that you're not alone in it, and he, above all and God, are orchestrating all the details that we're probably losing sleep over and don't need to.

Joshua Johnson: 17:38

I mean, in your book, you talk around shame in the body, purity culture, a whole bunch of types of like, there's shame around the body, but you just mentioned people feeling shame around the dismissal of their emotions or their feelings. How can we trust our body of what we're feeling? Because so many people say, ignore that and just go here. But I was thinking, I don't know, maybe I think this morning, I was talking to my wife, and we were talking about making sure that her body feels like this is the right thing to do, like to move in this direction, and it's actually comes from your body. You could say you just picture yourself going in this direction or another direction which feels better in your body, like, where can you feel peace? And I think because we have the Holy Spirit with us in our body, we could trust our bodies, yeah. How did you start to move into a place where you could start to feel and trust some of your instincts, your body, maybe the Holy Spirit speaking through you.

Kendall Mariah: 19:52

I wish I could say that I think it's a choice, or that I had to make a choice and then went on a journey, because I do think it's a practice, just as other spiritual practices are, learning to listen, but I want to separate that into things I believe, because I think there's learning to discern the Holy Spirit, and then there's learning to trust your body. And I do think they work together, but for me, and growing up in purity culture, they were separated for a really long time, right? You know, in a lot of ways, especially as a woman, I was told or perceived that my body was bad or that my body was solely meant for temptation purposes or be careful, or I would cause somebody else to sin, and that was even worse than sin to myself, just about, you know, like I have, was very disconnected from my body in A lot of ways, or it was felt like a problem to solve. You know, you have purity culture going on in the church world at the same time when a size six in women's clothes is considered plus size. And so my body was constantly under attack. And so I just, I didn't feel like I had any autonomy or agency of. Or my body. Meanwhile, I was a woo, woo kid who believed in the Holy Spirit, like I was the weird kid in like, middle school that took the spiritual gift survey during the adults class. Because why was I in there? I don't know, other than I refused to probably go to youth group and I wanted to take the survey, and as, like, a sixth grader got discernment. So I think you can be somebody who's Woo and spiritual and connected to the Holy Spirit, and also be disconnected to your body. Unfortunately, think one of the biggest reasons I began to listen to my body was going through some health issues. I had to have emergency surgery my senior year of college, and I had a large cyst that had been growing it in in my stomach for what they possibly had been years. It was so massive they thought, based on X rays, I was either a trimester pregnant, or something was severely wrong with my uterus. And I knew it had to be the latter, unfortunately, and I had no concept of that. Like, what do you mean? How do you how? What do you mean? Something that could be going on inside of me that I'm not aware of? I was told, you know, I may never be able to have kids. And you know, again, I'm being told something about my body, I don't know myself, that I can't control. And because of that, I knew that if I was ever going to have a healthy relationship with my body, after years of more issues, I had to make the choice you'd have probably seven, eight years back, right before we started the adoption process that how can I ever teach a child to love their body if I don't love and listen to mine and and I had to reframe it as stewarding my body. I had to reframe it as my body is good. God made me this way for a reason. God built me this way, whether that is my mind with my neuro divergence, you know, talk about it in the book, whether it is, you know, not being someone who's naturally stick thin, all of these things, and the fact that I'm a woman and I can't do the one thing a woman's supposed to do, you know, those are a lot of things I have to get over as hurdles. All the while, I have never doubted my discernment in God. And so I think whether you're like, Well, I feel good about my body. I have I feel attached into my body. I can feel a cold coming on. I you know, you feel in tune, and you can make those directions, but you're like, I can't hear from God, or I don't feel like I have discernment or the Holy Spirit. I think sometimes we have to make a choice that this is something I want to develop. This is a skill. I think sometimes we look at spiritual practices as something that we just innately have, like you just have the gift of prayer or you have the gift of meditation or interpretation or discernment. But sometimes there are skills that I think we are called to as Christians, as practitioners or followers of Christ, that we have to practice. I mean, there's a reason why the word's called practice, so I hope people don't have to go through a traumatic situation in order to get there. But for me, that tends to be, God needs me to sometimes run into the sign and get face planted by before I'll ever see it, because I'm that stubborn, hard headed.

Joshua Johnson: 23:58

Sometimes he's good at that, though

Kendall Mariah: 24:02

he is. He knows who he's working with. I mean, he knows how he built me like, I'm gonna have to whack her over the head with this one.

Joshua Johnson: 24:11

I mean, you went through a long process, really difficult process, of infertility, not being able to have kids, right? You just talked about that. You went through an adoption process, becoming an adoptive mom, and in that process and what shifted and changed in you, how did that open yourself up?

Kendall Mariah: 24:33

Sure, Lord, I mean, it is, without a doubt, the single most sanctifying process I've been through. And I do not say that lightly, and I say that as someone who went into it blindly, in the sense that I had no idea just how much I mean, I believe that God will use every situation, every season, to sanctify us, but there's just some things in our life we can point to that are like this is where he really blew the top off for me, and that was it. You know, my husband and I took a lot of time to work through our feelings about infertility, about, you know, the reasons why, you know, how do we feel about not having biological children? Thankfully, we had some of those conversations even before we got married. I was never a little girl that imagined myself pregnant, and I think that was a seed God planted again in my heart, as you know, a little in tune little girl. And this sounds like a joke, but it's not. My husband has a phobia of pregnant women, and I jokingly say that it's because he watched too many alien versus predator movies growing up. It just freaks him out a little bit. But there's these tiny little seeds that we can laugh about that are like God preparing our hearts and our minds maybe down the road when we don't know, and we end up finding out where both have fertility issues. It's not just my body that can't do what it's supposed to do. And so we went into the process thinking that was going to be the greatest hurdle, because that's what they warned me about. You know, is getting doing the work to make sure you're not going into the process of adopting a child to replace a child you're not going to have otherwise. You know, it is not this child's job to heal my infertility was or to replace something that I wouldn't have otherwise. That is an unfair job to put on a small human being. What I had no idea, though, was how it would reveal to me, the fact that because of the circumstances I was born into, in the zip code that I was born into, made all the difference to whether I was on the receiving end or I was on the end of having to make a very difficult decision. And so when I talk to friends and people now, they're like, Well, I've always wanted to offer. I want to adopt. And I have to ask them, do they feel called Adopt because they want to add to their family, they want to grow their family. Or do they see adoption as a lifetime ministry? And do they see themselves as part of the adoption triad, as the lowest person on the totem pole, where you're Matt your feelings, your priorities matter, least even behind the person that is, you know, gifting you with their child like your your matters are last, because that is what we have learned. And, you know, they kind of look at me crazy. But three years ago, almost three years ago, we went through the adoption process round for a second time, our first time with our daughters at Ann took 90 days. It was insane. Start to finish, everybody told us two years but again, I had a feeling my husband had a dream, and he is not a dreamer. 90 days later, exactly what he dreamed everything clockwork. I mean, it was like God gave us a prescription and we filled it out. It was that simple. But three years later, we started the process again, and we had three situations that none worked out, and we were close to$30,000 into the process that we would never receive back. And you know, you have people like, well, don't you want a petition to get that money back? Or the mom should pay you back the money that you gave them to help them through that season or pay for medical care. But I'm like, What picture of Christ does that give them? And if I'm the only per if our family is the only example of Christ or ministry that they ever receive, what does it say about what I believe, about faith or Jesus to walk with them on a journey? But say you're only worthy of my love and attention and affection and trust. If you give me something that is the most precious thing in your life, in return, it is a very transactional thing. And again, if you have transactional theology, it is going to be reflected in that. But if you believe that we are called to ministry, and if you have a mindset that God is going to return back to you, all that you sow, and that maybe you won't see it, but somebody else will see it, it changes the way you do it. So are you willing to risk your life savings for someone you don't know and to give them the flexibility and the confidence to make the right decision, if not you're not called to adopt. Now the second question is, if you're called to transracially adopt, or if you are open to that, are you willing to move? Are you willing to move so that your child is not the only child of color in the classroom or represented in your community? And because of that I had never had to consider life through the lens of a black person or a black woman. And in the book, I talk about this, the real time experience of now as the mother to a black child watching the Ahmed Aubrey case go down, and I'm going through my neighborhood at the time that was and very diverse and and pushing my little girl, and never once having to think, do I have to be worried if she goes for a run, like something so simple that, like my husband runs all the time, you know, his army is military, like he's all the time exercise. I don't think about it, you know, not for racial reasons that he should be concerned. But now this is something I have to consider. You know, there was a guy, a young guy, playing basketball, aside, is his mom worried? You know, like all these things, and I'm just crying walking through the neighborhood, and then I feel, not guilt, I mean, but that's the best way to explain that. Like, were all my black friends growing up experiencing things that I just was completely oblivious to? And the answer was yes. And so, you know, I read some really good books that really, again, blew my top off. One was called white fragility. That's going to hurt your feelings a lot, but it really has allowed me to understand and prioritize my daughter in a way that I don't think I would have had the capacity to before, just because you don't know what you don't know. And there's another one called, Why do all the black kids sit together at the cafeteria? I may be missing the order of those words, but it's another way that just helps you understand the psychology of how systemic issues still exist. List, even though it's not as blatant, but then still is yes and and I want to be the best moms that he can have. I owe that much, not just to her, but to mama J Janae, her biological mom, that I'd be willing to put myself in uncomfortable situations. And I think that's the friction that is the that is one of the fires like I think the litmus test for how bad do you want to have bold and bright faith is, how willing are you to sit uncomfortably? Are you someone that runs from uncomfortable situations and everything has to stay on the surface level because you're not willing to sit in that feeling? Or do you want to go deeper and have a faith or relationship or intimacy that can last, but you're gonna have to really work through some things in order to get there. You're not gonna be able to punch a card to the next level and be like, Oh, I finished reading the Bible this year. I'm a new level of Christian. Like, that's not how it works, unfortunately, but it feels that way again. That's transactional. If I do this, then I get that. But we don't see that with Jesus in the Bible. He does a lot, doesn't get anything in return. Ever, ever, I don't even think anybody ever gave him a birthday cake like you know, and yet we want something in return. And that's that's not a practice of Jesus that we see anywhere.

Joshua Johnson: 32:24

So as you walk through, walk through the fire, and you started to say, I'm going, I'm going deep, I'm I now have have empathy in places I didn't have before. I could actually see and sense people's experiences. And you are somebody, as you've known from an early age, that you have Holy Spirit discernment, you could sense and you could feel and you could see some things that are right and wrong, and it would probably frustrate you. I'm sure there's a lot of frustrations that have come up because of of all of those things that are happening in you and in the world right now that we live in. How do you walk with people whose veil is still over their eyes and it hasn't been lifted up yet they haven't gone through the the really work to get them to the other side. What does it look like to be in a world with people's veils over their eyes? How do you not just be angry all the time?

Kendall Mariah: 33:33

And there that is, and there that is. Well, I have to take my flesh like the on Jesus version of me, and I tell this to my husband only time. The only reason I am a good which I know is a debatable word a good person, is because of Jesus, not because I wouldn't choose the right thing, but because when I see injustice the way that I'm wired, I want to go and take you by the shoulders and be like, What are you doing? Are you kidding me? This is crazy. Like my six year old could tell you that that was a bad idea, you know, like, and it could be an any number of things I want to get loud, quick, funny story, like, the reason I didn't go to seminary, straight out of college, even though I went to a college that had a seminary, is one of my friends who he was currently in the program, sat me down for like a practice interview, and the question he asked me was, all right, Kendall. Now keep in mind, this is over 10 years ago, closer to 15, and he says, All right, Kendall, which part of Jesus's ministry do you most relate to or do you feel called to without hesitation, without blinking. I said, Oh, the part where he flips the table over 15 years ago, that was not a correct answer. You know, now people use those quotes and everything everywhere. It's just like the fact that 15 years ago, you wouldn't have admitted to having a mental health problem. You also would not have admitted to being the angry version of Jesus. But in the book, I walk you through a situation where I'm asking questions about money in a church meeting as an elementary student, because I'm like, the math is not mathing, and I'm sitting there with my little spreadsheet, and my parents are mortified and but I have always been that person. I've always been that kid, but it's because I believe that Jesus's way is the right way that I know I that can't always be my approach. And I said it the other day on Tiktok in response to something else. But we all can't be flipping over the taper table like we're called to do different things. Somebody's got to set the table, somebody's got to build the table, somebody's got to extend the table, somebody's gonna be willing to sit at the table with their enemies. I mean, that's scripture too. And so you say, What? What I do? I mean, I'm thankful I've grown up in a church to still attend the same church where there's people on both sides the aisle. I grew up as a little girl knowing that there were deacons, that one served in the House and one served in the Senate of our. State, and they were on either sides of the political aisle, because things that now that we call political, or we think are political, were just more of human nature humanity, things like they could agree on those things, but not necessarily agree on tax policy. And I'm a digging now at my church today, and I serve with people again, that don't all vote the same or have the exact same issues on everything, and so God constantly is wanting me to sit in that tension of wanting to shake people's shoulders sometimes, but I have to realize and think back to all the little things that I've had to experience, all the things God has allowed me to witness that he has allowed me to live through and not everyone has those things, not everyone has those experiences, not everyone is privy to that information. And I truly believe you cannot know better or do better until you know better like you. Some people are just walking around with mud on their eyes, having no idea it's there. And if we can't go around pointing our fingers like bullies on a playground and saying, You look stupid with all that mud on your eyes, wipe it off so you can see the truth. Like, who is that going to convince to do anything? You know you're not going to get anywhere with that, versus trying to have some dialog with people saying, well, I'm just really interested with how you got to that belief. Or would you be willing to sit with me and let me explain why I changed my mind? And I really think that's the most heroic thing people could do right now, is in their lives, intimately, sit down at the table with friends that they can care about. But see sharing posts or liking posts on Facebook and you're like, I know you're a good person, like, I saw you donate to the food pantry last week. I saw you fill up the blessing box without asking for anything returned, without telling a single soul. And yet you're liking that thing on Facebook that is evil, but we have to care enough about our brothers and sisters in Christ to be willing to have conversation with the Bible tells us that to go one on one and say, Hey, like and not accusatory and not with defense, and just say what brought you there? And let me share my story of how I got here, because I didn't always believe this way. But I also think we've got to get back to understanding why things like sanctification are part of our spiritual process. We don't get baptized, or, you know, I'm Baptist. I like, I didn't get dipped, and then suddenly come up with discernment, Revelation and immediate knowledge of the whole Bible. That doesn't work that way, like, I know, I know, you also do not get a passport to heaven. That is, you know, like, that's it. You know, you're now in the book. I believe that's part of it, but that shouldn't be the stop. Some people treat it like, Okay, I've got my ticket. Let me never refer back to this moment again when I believe that we have to. That's part of why we do things like communal we have to refer back to a baptism and say, Wow, look how far I've come. Look how far I still have to go. Look what how God is working in my life. Look at how Jesus is still refining me, how the fire is still working on some rough edges, how it's lining up, some things I need to pay attention to. But if we don't the fire of anger like that, that fiery spirit that some of us have is going to cause us to light our houses on fire. It is going to call us to blow up our lives or burn bridges. You know, fire is a good thing and it can be a bad thing. It depends on how we choose to use it or wield it. And again, I think we have to remember that we have autonomy. We have choice, and sometimes the choice has to be to go deeper. The choice has to be to be willing to sit and comfortable with people when we want to just yell and scream and shout. You know, there's time and place for that. And like I said to my husband the other day, I wish I was one as people, but could just let go and let God, but I'm not that's not the way he built me. But I tell you one thing that has really convened to me over the last couple of years is, you know, we say the Lord's Prayer all the time. And you know, we grew up saying it before basketball games in my small town, you know, in public school. But the fact that we say on earth as it is in heaven has been a commissioning statement to me over the last two years is that it's not my job to wait till I get to heaven to experience the goodness of God. It's my job as a conduit of Christ to bring heaven here, so that it is so tempting and hopeful and that light is so bright. People are like man, I want a piece of that. And not only do I want a piece of it, I want to experience that forever. And so I want to reach up to heaven, bring that here, so that people want it, and not take that passive stance. You're kind of saying of like, Well, God, God's going to figure out that we were told things were going to get bad. Let me just watch it be bad. How do we be the light? And.

Joshua Johnson: 41:00

Situations. I was talking to NT Wright yesterday, and it is this quote, which is what you just talked about, says the church is meant to be neither more nor less than the community that displays God's homecoming to the world, that displays heaven on earth. That's what we're supposed to be. We're supposed to be that conduit. What you just said, like, Hey, your kingdom come. Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. And he's using us, the body of Christ, through His Holy Spirit, to say, hey, people, I'm here. This is what it looks like. What does that look like when you're angry? So as you then say, okay, I know that I have to have a relationship with these people. I can't burn everything down. But you could take your anger to God, and you could be angry in prayer for sure. And I don't think a lot of people have permission to say, Be angry at God. It's okay to be angry at God. How does that help to give it to God your anger and then let his spirit move in you to know what is the right discernment and wisdom to live out in the world.

Kendall Mariah: 42:18

Yeah, it always amazes me when people are like, you can't question God. You can't be angry at God, like you can't take, quote, unquote, negative connotative emotions to God. Jesus literally said, Lord, will you take this cup from me? Like that is a question, and that is a frustrated statement. And Jesus was frustrated in that moment. The whole garden situation is one of my favorite scenes in the whole Bible, because it, to me, is where humanity and divinity meet. And I think one God can handle our anger. We would not be given anger just as this tool to remind us of our humanity. There is such thing as righteous anger. I mean part of that sometimes me going to prayer and being like God, why in the world would you make me surrounded by people that don't have this revelation and that don't believe mine? Like, like me just getting hyped up and saying, like, can you not just pour some of that for them? Like, why am I surrounded by all these people who just don't want to get it, you know? Like, he can handle that. Like, I don't know why we got this god that feels like he can only handle these pristine, quiet, liturgical, like they're beautiful and have their place, but can't handle the wide range of emotions. I hate that we feel that way because I believe he can handle all and he wants to see it all. It's much better for you to take it to God than take it to the streets. I mean, let's be honest. But also to me channel that anger, like Use that anger as action. You know, I believe that action can cure anxiety. I learned that with anxiety, like, I just need to get up and I need to move. But also think that action can make our anger not only feel justified, is not the correct word, but it but is like I'm doing something with it. So whether that is, you need to make some phone calls to senators or I need to, like, when we were worried about some of our local community losing benefits and hunger and our school systems, title one here. Like, I was angry about that, because, you know, these are the kids my daughter's in class with, and so I'm angry, of, like, really, like, there are so many other things we could be doing. Like, I worry about children. And so channeling that anger into, okay, well, what can I do? What resources do I have? And I'm like, Well, I'm really good at placing a Walmart order, and so I've got this little extra money I can spend. How far can I make it go? Like channeling that anger into action? You know, once you've gave it to God, and I think you would be surprised that when we take our anger, or we take these bubbling over feelings, and we take it to God and we just release it, how that gives us to capacity for creativity to come in, for us to come in and then have these new revelation of, oh, this is what I can do. This is how I can take action. But when we let that anger fester, it's taking up so much capacity in our spirit, it becomes noise because we're just festering. There's no capacity for creativity or discernment or revelation, because all we feel is that fire that we need to release somewhere.

Joshua Johnson: 45:25

I think a lot of people feel like, you know you we have that fire, we have that anger. But a lot of people within the faith community feel like certainty is the goal, like we want to have. We just want to know the right answer, and then everything will be okay. And we then feel like we have the right answer, so we get to tell everybody else this is the right answer, and we don't have to change. But you talk about the goal. Faith isn't just certainty, but it's courage. What does courageous faith look like?

Kendall Mariah: 45:54

I think it's sometimes saying the thing that needs to be said when it's not necessarily a popular opinion. And I think there's way to say. Say it. I think there's a way to say it with kindness, with compassion. I think a lot of times it comes with narrative, with an explanation of how I got there, but saying the thing needs to be said, or standing up when everyone else is sitting down. And that can go for a lot of things. You know, I think when we think of courage, we think of like the line, or we think of David versus Goliath, like these very huge, monumental moments, when sometimes I think those moments of courage are easier because it's very black and white. Somebody's got to do it. I'm the person. I'm the person standing here with a slingshot. It's my turn. You know when I see courage right now and was revealed to me in 2020 was standing up when I have every reason to sit down, when no one's going to be upset with me for sitting down, when no one's expecting me to stand up, I can take the passive choice because it's more comfortable, because it's easier, because it keeps me safe, but I don't think you can have self preservation and courage at the same time. Self preservation is kind of the opposite of courage. And what is self preservation based on? Is pride, ego, like I'm worried that I have to control things, or have control of things, because, if not, it won't work out. But it goes back to that worry that that, do we truly trust that God is going to show up for us? Do we truly trust that God is working out the details? And so I think right now, Courage looks like being that one person on your Facebook timeline that says, I don't have all the answers, but this is what is bothering me, or this is where it hurts me to see Christians show up in this way, or whatever the thing is that's been in the back of your mind, keeping you up at night and you can't sleep. Or maybe it's a conversation. I don't think it has to be these martyr moments, you know, Joan of Arc, or these moments were like coming in guns blazing. I actually think the way that Christ was courageous was the moments that he just simply made the choice he didn't have to make, like when he stepped in for the woman that well, when he, you know, when the woman was going to be stoned, he didn't have to do that. He could have kept walking like literally, no one was looking for him to do that. No one was looking for a hero. But he saw an opportunity to step in the gap. And I think, as Christians, next kind of part of this conversation, to me is, is, how do we become gap identifiers? How do we see life through a lens of situations where we can give glimpses of Christ instead of the first part of just wanting to be on the receiving end of seeing God? How do we then become from going from defense to offense? Of okay, the ball is in my court. Now, how do I exemplify Christ to other people, when a lot of times that is counter cultural, and even culture as a Christian culture, which is really hard, you know, but, but looking back, that's what it was with, like purity culture, like that was Christian culture. So standing up and saying, like, hey, intention is good here, methodology not so great, or it's causing the same kind of harm you're trying to prevent. So let's rework this. And I think that's the hardest part right now, is saying I'm willing to stand up and identify the friction and say, Hey, we need to pay attention to this. And the part to that is sitting in that friction. But I think the most encouraging thing to me has been through this book, through these conversations I've been having with people over time, is I do think there is a rising group of people that are feeling these friction things. They're trying to put a name on it. They're like, I do believe in God. I believe Christ is the way that I want to live my life and follow. But man, it feels like we have missed the plot, you know, like, and what do we do with that? And and I want to say, Whoa, well, there, come over here, sit down with me. These are the conversations I want to have, because I'm feeling the same way, and have been my whole life, but I finally got verbage around it, and everyone seems to be feeling in that same way. And so I think don't look for a moment that you've got to go win a war by yourself, but look for the tiny moments that may be the most uncomfortable moment that you have to be that one person at the dinner table at Christmas or a family get together and says, Hey, actually, that's not true about that group of people. It's not okay to say that. That takes a lot of courage, especially when it's people you know and love, but if we truly love those people, when we want them to know the whole truth and to see people and the world through the through the lens of Christ and just point. Then back to that. I think that's true love.

Joshua Johnson: 51:03

Couple quick questions I have here at the end. One, if you could go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give?

Kendall Mariah: 51:10

I mean, I have silly like, things I would say, like, do not dye your hair back that color, like it is going to ruin it, you know, like, little moments of that. But it is so hard to say 21 year olds of don't do this or don't do that, I think I would reinforce trust your gut and the work of the Holy Spirit in your life, and the feelings you're feeling right now, the friction about shame, the friction about believing that God has called you to be in ministry, but in a non traditional way, as crazy as people want to make you feel right now, when you said it out loud, you were listening to the right voice. You're not crazy. And so I was thinking, at 21 we're all doing the best we can with what we have, but I really think I could have used to more affirmation, and so if I could look back as a big sister and just say you're doing it, it's not popular what you're doing and choosing, you know, and I know it's lonely sometimes to be left out and to be not invited, and, you know, to be misunderstood. But I think I could. I really wish I could go back and hug my 21 year old self. And I think if you know a 20 year old, one year old, just give them a hug and just, I think, acknowledge that you're doing the best you can with what you have and and that's all we can ask anyone without a pre developed frontal cortex.

Joshua Johnson: 52:42

Great, that's good. Anything you've been reading or watching lately you could recommend,

Kendall Mariah: 52:47

oh my gosh, okay, this is going to be the nerd part of me. Okay, yeah. And again, I might butcher the name of it, and I might have to get it correct and send it to you, but it's called like an American takes on the estates or of the aristocracy. And I know I said that word wrong in Europe, but you're like going into like the Viscounts house in Ireland or the Duke's house. And my husband are both Big History nerds. We live in an old home, and I am just always interested in the context. Like, if I could go back to school right now for any things, it would be the hermeneutics of the Bible, because I think understanding history adds so much color to everything. And so watching a show that tells me about why they had this certain color ceiling in this certain color room to make this the effect. I'm like, I'm all in. I'm sitting there with popcorn. Like, yes, please tell me more, you know. And so that is on paramount, plus for any other history or architectural nerds that enjoy things like that.

Joshua Johnson: 53:51

Well, this little fire of mine will be out and available anywhere books are sold so people can go and get that. Is there anywhere people can connect with you? Where would you like to point them to? How can they get more information about the book too?

Kendall Mariah: 54:05

Yeah, I'm everywhere at Kindle, Mariah, that's Instagram, Facebook, Tiktok, all the same name. And like you said, my book is everywhere, and it is audible version too. And yes, I'm the one reading it. I don't know why everybody thinks that is such an unusual thing, maybe because sometimes on Tiktok, the hateful comments say, I need constant subtitles. But yeah, I think even if you are beyond the point of deconstructing, and you stayed and you're like, already been there, done that, I hope that, if nothing else, this book will give you perspective, because a lot of people make assumptions about people who look like me, talk like me, dress like me, and that we have a very particular view of the world, or experience of the world. And I think the best way that we can become better humans, better followers of Christ is to listen to each other's stories, and when we understand and listen to other people's stories, I think we can be better stewards of love and compassion. And so I'm constantly telling stories on Instagram and all those places I'd love to meet y'all there. I'm most active, but thank you so much for having me. This has been such a fun conversation, and I just appreciate you allow me to go all the way Elon on all these things,

Joshua Johnson: 55:28

well, thank you for going all the way in. It's it made it for a great conversation. Really enjoyed. Love talking to you. So thank you, Kendall, for walking us through what it looks like, really, to live in the disappointment, disillusionment, live in the friction, actually have God work it out, take our anger to God to actually be heaven on earth and be the conduit of who Jesus is and what he's doing and how he can actually be working in the world and saying, Hey, if there's something that's not right, we could say, Here's a story to say. Okay, let's look at it from a different way, a different perspective, and see what God's heart is for these people here on Earth. So thank you. It was fantastic. I really loved it.

Unknown: 56:10

Thank you so much for having me. You