Ep. 406 Bethaney Wilkinson - A More Beautiful Way to Live

In this episode, I sit down with Bethaney Wilkinson to talk about the pressure so many of us feel to move faster, do more, and carry the weight of the world on our shoulders. Bethaney shares her own story of burnout and how that crisis forced her to rethink the pace of her life, the way she pursued justice, and what it means to live faithfully in a chaotic world. We explore why constantly staring at the problems of the world can slowly deform our souls, how beauty and attention can help reorient us toward love, and why slowing down and tending to our inner lives might actually be one of the most important ways we can become a healing presence in the world.

Bethaney B. Wilkinson (MA, Fuller Theological Seminary) is a writer, spiritual director, podcaster, and facilitator who is passionate about slow, sustainable, and soul-nourishing living. She has led conversations on spirituality, race, and social change at Google and the Chick-fil-A Foundation, and her work has been featured on Getaway House, The Plywood podcast, and Pantsuit Politics. Bethaney is the author of The Diversity Gap and lives in rural Georgia.

Bethaney's Book:

A More Beautiful Way to Live

Bethaney's Recommendations:

Against the Machine

Pride and Prejudice

Connect with Joshua: jjohnson@shiftingculturepodcast.com

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Transcript

Bethaney Wilkinson: 0:00

We become the thing that we set our gaze on, and so whether that is in a beautiful church or in a beautiful place in nature, I just think it's really important that we train ourselves to see that beauty and to hold it with reverence.

Joshua Johnson: 0:22

You Hello and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create and the impact we can make. We long to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host. Joshua Johnson, sometimes it feels like the whole world is moving faster than it was designed to the pace of our lives keeps accelerating. The problems feel urgent, the pressure to respond, to fix things, to say the right thing, to do enough, can start to feel like it all rests on our shoulders. But what if the way we're trying to change the world is quietly destroying us? In this conversation, I'm joined by Bethany Wilkinson, a few years ago, she found herself living inside that pressure, working for justice, carrying the weight of the world, pushing harder and harder, until her body finally forced her to stop. What followed was a deep rethinking of how we live, how we work for good in the world, and what it means to pursue justice without losing our souls. We talk about burnout and urgency, about why constantly staring at the dragons of the world can slowly reshape our hearts and why beauty, slowness and attention might actually be essential for faithful living. Because maybe the goal isn't to save the world through constant urgency, maybe the deeper invitation is to become the kind of people who can actually heal it. So join us. Here is my conversation with Bethany. Wilkinson, well, Bethany, welcome to shifting culture. So excited to have you on. Thanks for joining me. Thank you for having me glad to be here. You write in your book, much of modern life draws us into a pace that feels frenetic and into patterns of urgency that create chaos in our souls. When did that become reality for you? Wow.

Bethaney Wilkinson: 2:06

What a good question. I would say. I started to notice this probably seven or eight years ago. I was working a pretty cool job. I did like the job, and I just noticed that the pressure to perform in that particular role, plus looking at all of the different justice issues happening in happening in our society, plus just being a person who longed for more quiet and rest and connection than I could ever seem to get my arms around I just was like, this, something's off here. Something is off. This isn't working. This cannot be the way that we're meant to live. It's unsustainable, anxious. I'm growing increasingly unwell in my body, and you can't, just like, you know, go on a retreat and fix everything, like something in my my life, the way I'm oriented towards life has to, has to change. And so that started, yeah, about maybe seven or eight years ago, and it got progressively worse, until I ended up leaving the city, leaving that job, sitting in a hospital room, having to change my whole life, because my body made me

Joshua Johnson: 3:18

so when we have this, this sense of urgency, and we continue to go at a frenetic pace, like we feel like what we do like in the next minute matters to the whole history of the world, like it's like we have this sense it is all like right there, and it's all on our shoulders, like we have to produce this change that we want to see, and it requires everything to us. How did that show up in your body? How did you first start recognizing what was happening in your body?

Bethaney Wilkinson: 3:50

So there were the very, the very physical things on the surface. So heart palpitations, if I'm honest, eye twitches, nausea, other I mean, sleeplessness, so there, those were the physical sensations. Then there was emotionally, a lot of frustration, irritability, and I don't mean like you've had a bad day. I mean this is like a constant state of being. Because I was really engaged in some racial justice, education work, I also noticed in myself that I was kind of becoming all the things I was hoping other people wouldn't be so really resentful and angry and judgmental and unloving, you know, like the fruit of my life ceased to be loving and peace giving, and so that's also how I noticed it, because my way of dealing with it, and I think our culture supported this, I just kind of tried to keep pushing through, you know, I'll just keep working. I'll work harder, I'll do more, I'll post more, I'll, you know, I'll just keep going. And that really wasn't the best solution. I learned the hard way, but that's how I responded at the time. You know, the weight is all on me. It's all on my shoulders. If I don't say. This, do this, post this right now, then obviously I hate everyone in the whole world and and it's all gonna, you know, collapse. So it's a lot of pressure. And so those are some of the ways I noticed it, physically, emotionally, and then just the state of my heart. I felt like the state of my heart and soul were not bearing the type of fruit that were in alignment with my values

Joshua Johnson: 5:19

all the time. There are so many dragons in this world that we want to slay. It said they couldn't look the dragon directly into the eye in Greek mythology, in the stories they it was too much for them to bear to look at the dragon, so they had to see the dragon shadow in their shield and to get a sense of what it is so that they could fight it off through the the reflection of of the dragon and the shield. What do you think it does to our souls to consistently look at the dragon look at evil and work. I mean, because you're working for justice, justice is really important. We all feel like there's some sort of justice that we want to work towards. But if we look straight at it constantly, what do you think that does to our souls if we don't actually slow down a little bit?

Bethaney Wilkinson: 6:20

Yeah, I think we become the thing that we if we're not conscious of it, we can easily become the thing that we are hoping to resist. And it's subtle. It's really subtle, and it takes a lot of attention and slowness to catch that and to pay attention. I think we also run the risk of just wearing ourselves out and losing the strength and capacity to actually engage or resist in the way that we hope we will. That's a couple of things that come to mind. I think that's so much of why I started trying to wrap my mind around what it looked like to move more beautifully through the world, and to let my gaze lift, and to see the trees and the birds and the stars and to feel the wind on my skin, it sounds like really romantic and perhaps lofty, but it really has been such a critical shift, like shifting my gaze, shifting my Attention, being reminded of the nature of life itself and and even considering all the ways I believe God knit his intentions for the world into creation that that really facilitated a shift for me from looking at the dragon or even staring at the dragon's reflection, to to paying more attention to all of the the good and beauty that I hope To be living towards

Joshua Johnson: 7:40

we live in a chaotic world. We live in a world that feels like there's there's despair, there's less hope. Now I think people because of that, they feel like it's more urgent than ever to go at a frenetic pace to to make sure that this isn't the way the world will work in the future, and we have to do it now. Do you think that this more beautiful way to live, that you're talking about, more grounded, slow? Does it work? Is it is it something that we should start to think about more than frenetic urgency.

Bethaney Wilkinson: 8:21

You know, I've been sitting with that question even as you know, I'm launching this book, and the world's really chaotic, and there are a lot of things demanding our attention and our action right now. And so I've been asking myself, Bethany, does this work? You're about to go tell everybody, it works. Does this work? And I want to say yes, with a caveat, I think what I've realized in having lived through the story of this book and writing it, and we may or may not get into this more, but I've also had a pretty drastic shift in my faith life, which has helped a lot. I think that this way of living only works if you're rooted in something significantly bigger than yourself. And if you're rooted in a sense of time and redemption that doesn't rest on your own shoulders, that's what I think. That's my guess. And so I would say that prior to writing this book, when I was in that season of like burnout and strain on my body, mind, soul, etc, I was kind of at a I feel like I was maybe a functional agnostic. That's kind of some of the language I've been using. Like I I say I believe in God. I say I'm a Christian, but I'm not living as if God is real, or as if there's spiritual reality at all. It's really all up to me, and I think that that fed my sense that I have to be on the front lines of everything, because if I'm not doing it, then surely the world's going to end, and what I've been holding now in this time is an acknowledgement that while I can do what I can, I have limits, and my limits are okay because I'm a creature. I'm not God, and it's actually wise for me to live within those limits. It's and I'll Some might say that that means I'm not doing enough. Maybe in some universe, they're right at the end of the day. I do believe that something is bigger, is holding us, and the pressure is not all on me. So does it work? I think so. I hope so. We'll find out.

Joshua Johnson: 10:19

I think it works. I think that there is, there's a place I always find myself contemplating time. I'm very interested in time. Time is really fascinating to me. I just like I love time travel movies. I'll tell you why I like the movie arrival. The movie arrival is crazy, alien story with a linguist and trying to learn alien language. But really, what it is is about how love and time are. They coexist together, but they're outside of our linear time, like love is outside of time, it is not bound by our own sense of, like we have to do this now, like it's there's something bigger. And I think because God is love, he's outside of time, like there's a bigger story and a timeless story that we've caught up in. I think because we get so caught up in our our time bound stories, of like, this timely moment that we're in right now, we forget what is really real, which is the love that's outside of time that can really ground us and see us. I know this is lofty and weird, but it is. How do we start to, like, lift our eyes, like you did, and start to see the love that's outside of time, that God is there outside of time and is timeless and can speak to our moment, but he's not contained in this moment.

Bethaney Wilkinson: 11:52

Wow, oh gosh. You know, I like to think that I alluded to the fact that I called myself Christian, but I didn't really have a real sense of faith for a long time. And then I turned to the natural world, which I view as a stepping stone for me, and kind of lifting my eyes and and realizing, like, okay, something bigger is holding us. I'm living right now on this really beautiful acre that's kind of carved out of these cattle fields in rural Georgia. And I'm just surrounded by these trees. It's, it's winter right now. They're bare, and they're beautiful, and I know that their roots are going really deep and and, you know, storms come and they go. And these trees are so steady for the most part, the most part, they're steady, not always, but they are. And so for me, paying attention to the natural world, and two, the resilience of the created beings around me was a big stepping stone to me opening my heart and mind to faith again, and then as I began to re engage with a community of faith, something in that process was really healing for me to acknowledge, Like, okay, God has been holding all of this together for all time. God is not surprised by the chaos in the world. This is actually quite as devastating as some of the things are. It's actually very human for these power games to play and for there to be this churning of change and revolution, and it's just it seems to be the way of the world. And so what does it mean to be steady and faithful and prayerful and to continue to tend to my own heart in the midst of it, so I don't become calloused and resentful and become all of the things that I don't want to be that that work is incredibly important. And so I found that by looking to God and to his creation as these icons, if you will, of of what's possible, it's created enough safety for me to continue slowing down and to continue tending to the inner terrain of my own life. And I I hope that's possible for everyone, because as we do that, we're able to build our capacity to love our neighbors, to tend to our communities where we are. But more often than not, it's within the realm of what we can touch and what we do have influence over. It's not this constant pressure to perform and overreach and to kind of try to change the world. It's like, well, I'll change my world because I can.

Joshua Johnson: 14:22

As you write about, you talk about slowing down. Often there's resistance in your own soul before there's some peace. Talk about, you know, wild beasts that show up. I think when we don't slow down, we're very cognizant of the wild beasts in others, and we want to tame those beasts, like, that's who we are. It's urgent. We're going to tame the beast, right? And it's when we're like, oh, I'm going to slow down. And it's scary that there are some wild beasts in me, if we tend. Our own beasts, man, man, the world would be so much better. It would be awesome to do that. But why do you think it hurts so much when we start to pay attention, to slow down, to see what's really inside of us?

Bethaney Wilkinson: 15:12

So many reasons, so many reasons. I think, yeah, it's so it can be so painful. I don't really know why that is, though. I I don't know why it's so painful, it's and so I'm really sitting with that question. I mean, I guess anytime that we, since we attempt to approach and resolve brokenness in the world, we're going to be met with the discomfort of that reality. So I don't know why it's painful, but it is, and I also find that it's the only way forward. Yeah, why do you think it's painful? I'm curious to know, like, Why does it hurt so much?

Joshua Johnson: 15:47

I think it hurts so much because we, yeah, we're getting rid of the impurities of of our own soul. And, I mean, that's painful. And, I mean, it's kind of what God talks about, being a fire that like, like, gets rid of the impurities of us. And I think so fire is inherently painful, yeah, so we have to go through that pain to actually see who we really are. I think if we see who we are, we realize that, I don't know, I think that we could give grace to other people in a deeper way than we were able to before. Have you noticed any shift in the way that you see others because of this slowing down and living this more beautiful way? Oh, 1,000%

Bethaney Wilkinson: 16:37

so much of it, so much of living a more beautiful way. And as I go through the practices, so much of it is about tending to our own lives and souls, and as just like you said, as you get into the weeds of your own heart, the judgment, the shame, the fear that's there, the hatred of the other that's in there, the whatever it might be, the pride as you become practice at noticing that in yourself, you Become aware of the fact that literally, every other person you're interacting with has their own stuff that they are responsible for. And it makes it really clear that while you can't change anyone else, you can change yourself, or you at least can try. And I found that especially as it relates to some of the more charged polarization we're experiencing in our culture today, whether it's political or racial, ideological, whatever it might be, I started to tell myself, and I think I heard a podcaster say this, and it just stuck with me that people do things for reasons like people do things for reasons even the person that I don't understand at all like they're not any less smart than me, they're Not less virtuous than me, like you start to think like, oh, they're just a bad person. No, they're actually probably just a person, and they're doing things for reasons. And if I want to move towards healing and connection in the world, then I have to have enough respect for their personhood to learn about what is compelling them to decide what they're deciding, as opposed to dehumanizing them with my own judgment. So I think that way of thinking has become normative to me as I've had time and space to tend to these things. I'll also say that a big part of the brokenness I was feeling prior to charting this more beautiful way for myself was related to a sense of disconnection from people in my life along these political and ideological differences, or along those lines of difference, and if I didn't start taking radical accountability for my own inner world, then those relationships would have continued to fracture. And that's not what I wanted.

Joshua Johnson: 18:37

If you're thinking about then these practices pay attention to yourself. You talked about ideology a couple times and just a framework to make sense of the world. I believe that ideology just leads to dehumanization and violence, because we're holding on something. If you don't believe it, then you're just wrong and you're not even human anymore. Just a weird thing. How did, how do we recognize that we're holding ideologies instead of, like what we talked about before, like timeless stories of love, like better, bigger stories than just the ideologies that we're holding?

Bethaney Wilkinson: 19:18

Yeah, I think a couple of things come to mind as you were describing that I started to imagine those timeless stories of love have a spaciousness, like a spacious quality to them, like an expansive, spacious, curious, open energy to them, which I think is one indicator if you're feeling boxed in really rigid, really firm and like if that's the energy, then you're prop you might be dancing with ideology and not with a timeless story of love. Perhaps. I also think that the that the tree is known by its fruit, right? I think that if you have a tough time being in like a relationship with a person who sees the world differently than you, then you might be in an ideological box. Um. If you have a hard time being curious, if you have a hard time saying, oh, man, I might be wrong. I think if there's like no wiggle room around it, then then you might be in an ideological bubble, as compared to being in a space that's flexible, that's humble, that's curious, that's learning, that's expanding, and it's in its energy and its impact in the world around you.

Joshua Johnson: 20:23

What practices or practice that helps do that, to let go of our rigidity?

Bethaney Wilkinson: 20:31

One practice that comes to mind is self reflection. It's a really simple one, taking time to consider, what am I doing? Why am I doing it? What's important to me here? That's one practice that's helpful. I think another practice that's helpful is modeling curiosity and relationships with other people like tell me more about who you are, what's important to you? Why does that matter? Especially if you can do it with people who see things differently than you. If you can hold yourself together long enough to hear opinions that you might view as dissenting, that can be a really good practice. It's a it's a challenging one, but a really good one.

Joshua Johnson: 21:05

When you went through your your time, you even got into the hospital you're going through, through burnout, there's something to help in our our daily lives, to help us realize that we're headed toward that space of burnout, that we need to start to pay attention to something different. Maybe switch things up.

Bethaney Wilkinson: 21:28

Yeah, yeah. It likely is different, depending on who you are. But a few of the flags, yellow flags, if you will. One I find is irritability and frustration, almost like a an unreasonable amount of it just I'm I'm annoyed with everything. I'm irritable all the time. I'm constantly frustrated. Then that tends to be a sign that you at least, at the very least, you need a break or to step away, and whatever that might look like. Another way to notice it is through physical sensations. And so are you sleeping okay? Are you like? Are you doing okay? Are you feeling well in your body as well as you're able? I should say, we all have different bodies and different amounts of capacity. Another way to notice it is looking to how much time you're spending distracting yourself or numbing or giving over to your vices, if you will, too much social media, too much drinking, whatever it might be. I find that if I'm in a state of needing to numb out of my life all the time, it means something in my life isn't working, which could mean that you're on the path to burnout. And so those are a few indicators, the irritability, the just physically like, how are you doing? And then that last bit being well, are you numbing out? What isn't what in your life is causing you to feel like you need to check out all the time.

Joshua Johnson: 23:43

You're contrasting two different things. So far in our conversation, we're contrasting, you know, slowing down, peace, there's some some good practices, and then you have urgency and speed and activism that you just it's all on our shoulders. Help somebody see that transition that you made from burnout into new practice, a new way. What do first steps look like for somebody to say, I wasn't practicing any of these things, but this is how I started. Yeah.

Bethaney Wilkinson: 24:18

So step number one is to literally slow things down. And that can be a feat in and of itself, if you're moving really quickly, and it can be pretty uncomfortable. And so here are a few I'll just throw out a few things you can try and people can pick and choose. One is to intentionally set aside intentional quiet time, whether that is in the morning or the evening or the middle of the day, set a timer, put your phone down, maybe go for a walk, maybe sit quietly, maybe have a warm cup of water and just see what that slowness feels like. And that might sound really trivial, but it's surprising. It can be surprising how tough that can be, especially the idea of leaving your phone in another room while you do it. So that's number one. Practice slowing down. Another way to practice slowing down, and I write about this some in my book, is going to a place, a physical location that kind of forces you to move differently. Going on a hike, getting outdoors can be really helpful. Going to someone else's home, if there's a friend that you have whose home is really cozy to you, and they'll let you come sit there. It sounds maybe strange, but that can be really helpful. If you're in your own house, you're tempted to clean and work and keep moving. If you're in someone else's house, you're able to relax a little bit, maybe. So finding ways to intentionally slow yourself down can be really critical. And then take a moment to look at what is happening in your life, like even if it's looking at your your week, or looking out at your month and saying, Okay, is there any margin here? If so, great, embrace that. If not, you might want to put some margin into your schedule. So what we're trying to do here is to teach your body, to teach your nervous system that there is safety and slowing down, because for a lot of us, the constant. Urgency isn't only because of the culture we're in. It's also because there's almost like a survival instinct. If I'm not hustling all the time, then I'm not going to be okay. For others of us, it can also be a bit of a trauma response that we're overworking that we don't stop. So learning how to practice slowing down is really, really helpful. A second practice I recommend, is connecting with your body and just noticing how you're physically doing, how you're physically feeling. One of the things that we tend to ignore, or I can speak for myself, that I tend to ignore when I'm overworking especially, is just the basic needs that my body has, needs for water, needs for food, needs, for rest, and so our bodies are really they're wisdom keepers. Our bodies are wisdom keepers, and they often help us know if we're moving in alignment with what our bodies need, or if we're out of alignment. So that's a couple of things that I would offer to people. And then, of course, in the book, I go through, you know, seven more practices to support people on that journey.

Joshua Johnson: 27:01

So a lot of times, people often have been told to not pay attention to their body, to pay attention to other things your body's maybe lying to you. How do you give permission to people? Just give permission to people to pay attention to their body, and then what does it look like to then, like, start to notice what your body's wisdom is telling you

Bethaney Wilkinson: 27:26

in terms of the permission piece. I mean, I'd be curious to know if this has been your experience. I find that if I ignore my body long enough, she kind of revolts against me and lets me know in ways that I don't like. And so I I can say, you know, you have permission to care for your body and, and that may or may not land, but if you listen to your body, I think it will give you some indication of what it needs. And it's critically important, because you are a body, and these vessels matter, and God made them good and and we're meant to, we're meant to work with them, not against them. So, or that's my opinion, anyway, as it relates to the second part of your question. So one of the practices that I really like, it's super simple, but it's a body scan, and it's really it's something that I often do right when I wake up, so I'm still in bed, or right before I'm going to sleep, and you are just gently moving your attention, your awareness of your body, from your feet all the way up to the top of your head. So you're checking in with your feet. How do my feet feel today? Have I been on my feet all day? Have I been sitting all day? How are they? How are my ankles? How are my shins? How are my knees? And it's just a little gentle practice to check in with how you're doing. Oh, I'm feeling a little nauseated right now, or a little hungry, or maybe I over ate. You know, you're just you're just noticing. You're just noticing. And I find that doing that practice on a regular basis, you you just kind of get to know yourself a bit better, and then you're able to make small tweaks and adjustments. And so the wisdom isn't always loud, it's often very subtle, but it it's really helpful. Like, are you drinking enough water? Do you need some more movement today? Do you need better support in your shoes? I know these are small things, but short of you know, having to end up in the emergency room, like I did, these small things can actually help you set a pace that's more realistic for your life,

Joshua Johnson: 29:21

beauty is really core to your book. And I think beauty is it's important, especially in the ugly world that we live in. Ray Baki and theology as big as the city this book, he writes, In Exodus, 31 and 35 we find the very first gift of the Holy Spirit mentioned in the entire Bible an art committee. Why? Why does a poor, unemployed migrant group on public aid for food need the arts? Luther knew the reason when he expressed that the poor need beauty as much they need bread because they live in ugliness. Moses let the arts emerge and along with them, health laws to address environmental concerns. I think then in the midst of the desert and the ugliness of life, it is very interesting to me that the first gift of the Holy Spirit was an art committee to build the beauty of the tabernacle just and for artisans to be able to do that. So why do you think beauty is important in the world today.

Bethaney Wilkinson: 30:24

Yeah, beauty has a way of reminding us of that love that exists beyond time that you were describing earlier. I recently converted to Orthodox Christianity. Well, kind of recently, about 10 months ago, and one of the things that was so compelling and healing for me was entering into a church for the first time, or the first few times, and really being captivated by the beauty there, by the the attention to detail, the iconography. The the the incense, the candles. And what I love about that expression of worship is it is so embodied, and it's all of your senses are captivated, and all of your attention are kind of drawn to again, that time beyond time, that that love that's beyond time, and it's overwhelming in the best possible sense. It's overwhelming. It's a very similar experience I had, and I have even living here. I was in Colorado many years ago, and my husband and I were driving in the middle of nowhere, and the sky was like, perfectly clear, and it seemed like the sky was full of like millions of stars. It was overwhelming. It captivated all of my senses, and it kind of drew me out of myself in a way that was so restorative, and kind of it lifted my eyes and lifted my spirits. And so I think we we need beauty to remind us of our worth. We need beauty to remind us of God's goodness. We need beauty to kind of train our hearts and our minds and our souls to see that beauty everywhere, like, what's, what's, what are we fighting for? What are we living for? It's, it's in hopes of there being more of this beauty and connection. So I just think it's so important, and we become the thing that we set our gaze on, and so whether that is in a beautiful church or in a beautiful place in nature, I just think it's really important that we train ourselves to see that beauty and to hold it with reverence.

Joshua Johnson: 32:34

How do we discern whether or not we are beholding real beauty or false beauty, like, how do we know what beauty that we're beholding so that we can actually then be transformed into something beautiful ourselves?

Bethaney Wilkinson: 32:52

So many ways come to mind. Part of me thinks when you first asked that question, my thought, my mind went to community and to the sense that sometimes we need to be in connection with other people. If we aren't sure we need to be in connection with other people to help us rightly discern that. So hopefully we have good people around us who can help us. The other thing that comes to mind is, I kind of alluded to this earlier, but to pay attention to the fruit of that observation, are you becoming more beautiful, more spacious, more loving, more free in your interior space, more peaceful. Are you becoming a non anxious presence in the world, or are you persisting in being an anxious, fretted or, you know, energy in the world, I think, kind of noticing the impact it's having inside of you is important. Noticing the impact of your relationships. Are you creating beauty and goodness, or are you looking out at your life and seeing lots of disconnection and I'm cutting that person off, or, you know, like, whatever it might be like, I think the fruit of it can tell you, in some way, which direction you're headed in

Joshua Johnson: 33:56

as you walk through these different practices for a more beautiful way to live. What are you hoping people will take from these practices, like, what does it practically look like for them to I don't know, not just take them for a practice. What you have been articulating in this conversation is like something deeper than just an action of our lives to slow down, it's rooting you're like rooted in mystery and love and grace in ways that I don't think a practice can get you. There is something else. There's something I don't know, something intangible. I can't put my finger on it. So how I don't want people just to take a practice and say, this is going to solve all of my issues. So how can people take these in a way that actually leads to something that you've already been articulating, like moving to a deeper place?

Bethaney Wilkinson: 34:57

Yeah, you know, I really appreciate you saying this, because even as I've been talking about the book a bit more, I am noticing that in myself, I'm like, There's something else here that I can't quite give voice to, which is hilarious because I've written 55,000 words about it. So we'll see. Maybe the next book will will be clearer in this way. You know, I think I was recording the audiobook for this this a few weeks ago, and I was surprised to notice, and reading back the whole book over a two day period, how much I wrote about pain and how much I wrote about facing pain, it surprised me. I was like, oh gosh, I didn't I hope that's okay. I think the thing I'm hoping people will find, if they have the courage and support through these practices, I'm hoping that they will find healing for their pain, so that they can continue to be a healing presence in the world around them. And I'm hoping that they can deepen their own experience of love, so that they can be love to the people around them. And. And not necessarily in the flashy, showy ways that we see, you know, online, not in some performance, but in a way that no one else may see other than your spouse or your kid or the person next door. And I hope that through the practices in this book, that that small, humble, attentive, living begins to feel like enough, because I really do think it is. I think it's enough. And we live in a world that will tell you that if you aren't doing everything, whether it's for a good cause or for your job or for whatever it might be, then you're a bad person, then you're a failure, then you must hate someone you know and and I think that that spiral over time causes more harm than good. And I want people to feel okay with the small simplicity of their lives. And for some of us, you know, we might be called to go be a congress person, or, you know, I'm not. I think being faithful to that inner life is going to be different for each of us, but I hope again, that people take these practices, that they face their pain, that they experience healing, so that they can be a healing presence in the world around them.

Joshua Johnson: 37:10

So if you say like you would pick up and do similar work that you did before, and do that, how do you think that now, like, if you had your job earlier, when you were like, just go, go, go, and how, how would it shift and change? How would you enter into that work so that you could be a healing presence?

Bethaney Wilkinson: 37:33

Oh, wow. I've never thought about this. I do think I would have been more gentle with myself and those around me, just even in just general conversation, I think I would have had a lot more humility and curiosity, and I wouldn't have thought that I knew everything, which probably would have spared me and others a lot of distress, and some of that's just, you know, age or whatever, and that's fine. I think I would have invited more voices to co create with me, as opposed to feeling like I had to do it myself. I would have made more room for more people to co create alongside me, so that we could share the responsibility of the work we were doing, and I would be more realistic about my own pace, and I would have had better boundaries. And by that, I just mean I would have communicated like I'm overextended. I can't do that today. I will help with that project, but it'll have to be due in four weeks, not two, you know, just that's what I mean by boundaries, not anything too drastic. I just would have communicated those things instead of kind of stuffing it and powering through and so I couldn't do it anymore.

Joshua Johnson: 38:34

A lot of what you, you've been talking about, too, goes to the difference. So you just said you wanted to, like, draw people in and CO create with you. We often think so much in America around our individual selves, and we try to build community through our individualistic lens of what is best for me as the individual and not us as a collective. Is there hope of moving from that individualistic lens into a more collective, communal type of like I can see what is best for us together, and not just what is what I believe is best for myself.

Bethaney Wilkinson: 39:18

You know, I hope so. I hope so. I think if our efforts to experience greater care and healing in our own stories and our own bodies doesn't lead to the capacity to do the hard work of actually loving and caring for other people, then it's it's not the real thing. I think that true self love and true self care ought to be generative, and it ought to move you towards those around you. And that's not always easy, but I think that's like the testing ground of of whether or not you actually are, you know, becoming more healthy, more healed, more whole. You know, do I have capacity to hold this person's difficulty, to love them for who they are, as they are, without trying to change them? So much of that flows from being really well rooted and who I am, and in loving and loving the person that I am in the midst of all the things I can't change. And I'm hoping that that person is, you know, reciprocating that type of care. And so I do hope that it works together, that there's a synergy between our own healing and and the work we do with others. That's, that's my hope. I think the best work is that way.

Joshua Johnson: 40:24

I think it is too. I think we've we've touched on this a little bit. But how do you tell the difference between faithful commitment to the work and anxiety driven over extension of the work?

Bethaney Wilkinson: 40:38

I don't think you always know in the moment, so I'll start with that, but I do think it is unsustainable to live in crisis mode, and so if you are say, on the front lines of a challenging situation, to put it gently, you have to be aware that living in that state. Isn't sustainable. And so whether it is the frenetic anxiety, frenetic anxiousness that's driving you, or faithful commitment, or more likely, a combination of both, just be mindful that something's going to have to give at some point. And so how can you be proactive about tapping into that self care or the community care that you need to regenerate. I do think ultimately, you can't always know in the moment which thing is driving you. Unfortunately, hindsight is 2020. Of course,

Joshua Johnson: 41:30

I think part of slowing down, what you, you talk about, is receiving and accepting life as it's given to you. Sometimes that can can sound passive, like there's not as much agency, but you do have agency there. So how do we then, like, accept life as it's given, and have some agency holding those two things together?

Bethaney Wilkinson: 41:56

I found that for myself, and I've observed in others that some of the anxiety we experience is because we're trying to we're always trying to change everything. We're always trying to change ourselves, fix this, fix that. And I find that in receiving and accepting life as it's given first, and kind of letting the dust settle and saying, Okay, this is what I've got. This is what's here. This is the reality of the situation, and coming to a place of acceptance about it is the only thing that helps me to clearly see what my agency is and where my agency is. I just I find that if I stay in a posture of resisting or hating or fresh being frustrated with whatever is coming my way, then I'm not even able to see my options very clearly. And so if I can get settled and say, Okay, this is what is, let me accept it and then decide the decision tends to be better.

Joshua Johnson: 42:50

So where do you think that right now in your life that you are practicing and you're implementing this more beautiful way to live? What does it look like for you now, yes.

Bethaney Wilkinson: 43:03

So in my current work, I lead a Forestry and Conservation nonprofit. I don't write about this a lot, but that's what I do for my job. And even just this past week, my organization is kind of interesting. We're a network of eight other organizations, and so it's a lot of people, a lot of people that I'm that I'm interacting with and a lot of interest to weigh, and a lot of resources being moved around. And then I have a pretty small team, and there was kind of a something that happened in our network, in our organization, that created a good bit of anxiety. Is not the right word, but just there's a lot of potential for chaos in the midst of what we're navigating. And I realized that I did not feel overwhelmed. I'm like, Okay, I'm going to accept this for what it is. I can't change these people. That's fine. I don't need to change them. Here's what we're dealing with, here's what we're looking at. And I felt myself, this was literally on a call yesterday, take a deep breath and say, here's what it is. I looked at my team and like, we're going to be fine. We are going to be fine because our work is important. We know what to do. We have what we need. So have a great weekend, and I want you to bring all of that joy that you have over the weekend into our work on Monday, when we're going to solve this problem. And so I tell that story to illustrate that Bethany, five years ago, would not have handled this this way. I would have been an anxious mess. I would have stayed up all night. I probably would have called too many people trying to figure things out. I just was so disconnected from myself. I didn't have any self trust. I just was all over the map, and I would say, Over these years of practicing a more beautiful way. Number one, slowing down. Number two, check in with my body. Number three, have a clear assessment of what's within my control. Number four, be aware that we're living in a rhythm here. This isn't the end of the world. We're going to circle back to this in a few days. Like all of these little practices over time have taught me how to be a better leader, a better wife, a better participant in my faith community, I see the fruit of this all over my life, and I'm really grateful for it. It feels so much better. I'm way less anxious. Things aren't perfect, that's the other thing. I'm like my things are this is still a problem we have to solve, but better than I'm grounded and accepting of it, as opposed to anxious and terrified and overdoing it, because I think it's going to go badly. I just find that these practices have been really generative, and I'm grateful for that.

Joshua Johnson: 45:22

What is your hope for then a more beautiful way to live? What's your hope for the book and for the readers, the people who pick up this book?

Bethaney Wilkinson: 45:30

I hope that on the surface of things I do, of course, hope that people slow down and experience deeper connection to themselves and their bodies. Beyond that, I hope that people are able to discern what is theirs to do in the world, like, what is their work? What are their limits? What do they need to be well, and what do they have to give? Like, I really hope that people are more dialed into their good and beautiful and limited lives as creatures on the earth and. They're able to give the full force of their love and energy there. That's what I hope for. Might be a tall order, but we'll see

Joshua Johnson: 46:07

it could happen. A couple quick questions here at the end to Bethany one, if you go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give?

Bethaney Wilkinson: 46:15

Chill out and keep having fun. That's what I would tell her, yeah, chill out. It's gonna be okay. I'd probably maybe tell her to find a good mentor, and when she's freaking out to ask for help. Awesome.

Joshua Johnson: 46:29

That's good. Anything you've been reading or watching lately you could recommend.

Bethaney Wilkinson: 46:33

Yeah, I've been reading a book called Against The Machine by Paul Kingsnorth. I'm really obsessed with it, reading it nice and slowly. I'm also reading Pride and Prejudice, because I'm in a Jane Austen Book Club. So there's that I do recommend it. In terms of watching, I finished Stranger Things over the holidays, me and probably millions of other people, but I had never seen that series before, and I watched the whole thing over the holidays because my teenage niece requested that I do so, and I loved it.

Joshua Johnson: 46:58

That's good, yeah. Well, it's good. I mean, you could read the beginning of Against The Machine and be very anxious. So I'm glad you're reading some other things like bright and prejudice. That'll help you.

Unknown: 47:13

I'm just another one the end. I hope the end, he comes through with some good ideas. I don't know we'll see Bethany.

Joshua Johnson: 47:20

This book a more beautiful way to live will be available March 3. Anywhere books are sold, people who go and get the book. So Bethany, how can people connect with you? Where else would you like to point people to Sure?

Bethaney Wilkinson: 47:32

Yeah, you can find me on Instagram at Bethany Bree. I am slowly leaving Instagram, though, so it's not the permanent place. It's just the easiest. And then you can find me on sub stack at the inner terrain, or a more beautiful way, either of those will point you to me,

Joshua Johnson: 47:45

perfect well. Bethany, thank you for this conversation. Thank you for just opening yourself up and just being a non anxious presence here in this conversation. It was a beautiful conversation. Really loved it. So thank you so much. Thank you. You