Shifting Culture
On Shifting Culture we have conversations at the intersection of faith, culture, justice, and the way of Jesus. Hosted by Joshua Johnson, this podcast features long-form conversations with authors, theologians, artists, and cultural thinkers to trace how embodied love, courage, and creative faithfulness offer a culture of real healing and hope.
Shifting Culture
Ep. 407 James K.A. Smith - Make Your Home in This Luminous Dark
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In a world of misinformation and uncertainty, we’re often tempted to think our way out of our problems. But what if more knowledge isn’t the answer? In this episode, I talk with philosopher and author James K.A. Smith about his book Make Your Home in This Luminous Dark and why the pursuit of certainty can easily become an idol. We discuss his personal journey discovering the wisdom of silence, solitude, and surrender after a season of depression forced him to confront problems thinking alone couldn’t solve. We explore the insights of the medieval mystics, what it means to let go of the need to win arguments, why our bodies matter in spiritual practice, and how discovering our belovedness reshapes the way we live and engage the world.
James K. A. Smith is professor of philosophy at Calvin University and author of Make Your Home in this Luminous Dark: Mysticism, Art, and the Gift of Unknowing (Yale, March 2026). His popular writing has appeared in magazines such as Christianity Today, Christian Century, and the Los Angeles Review of Books, as well as the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, and USA Today. He lives in Grand Rapids, MI.
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Make Your Home in This Luminous Dark
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When you finally shut out all the noise, your awareness and attention is available to realize you have always been beloved of God, that that God has always been in you, and you are in God, and it's it's a recognition of what is already the case you you.
Joshua Johnson:Hello and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create and the impact we can make. We long to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host. Joshua Johnson, now we live in a moment obsessed with certainty. Everyone is trying to figure everything out, what's true, what's right, how to fix the world. We assume that if we just had the right knowledge, the right answer is we could finally make sense of things. But what if knowledge isn't the thing that saves us. In this episode, I talk with philosopher and author James K A Smith about his new book, make your home in this luminous dark. We explore the limits of certainty, the wisdom of the Christian mystics, and why silent, solitude and unknowing might actually be a path into deeper truth and a connection to the divine, so that we know that we are beloved, and when we know that we are beloved, that changes everything. Jamie shares how a season of depression and spiritual disorientation forced him to confront something difficult that you can't think your way out of every problem, and that realization opened him up to poetry, art, contemplation and the ancient spiritual tradition that teaches us how to sit in the dark long enough to discover wonder. This conversation is about letting go of control, learning to pay attention again, and discovering the deep truth at the center of the Christian life that we are already loved. So join us. Here is my conversation with James K A Smith, Jamie, welcome to shifting culture. So excited to have you on thanks for joining me. Oh, it's great to be with you. Thanks so much. This is a crazy world that we live in today, it feels like truth is elusive. We're trying to figure out what it looks like, and we can't really grasp a hold of it. Do you think that in this crazy world where we can't really figure it out, is it knowledge that can really save us? Can we figure it out and master it to get the right knowledge to solve our problems.
Unknown:I think that's our temptation. We imagine that we can think ourselves out of this mess. And I mean, of course, I understand we, we. We should be rightly unsettled by misinformation and disinformation and all of the ways that people try to hoodwink us and and deceive us. And yet, there is another sense in which I think this quest to solve everything with more knowledge, more conceptual mastery, I think is kind of doomed to disappointment. And in some ways maybe, maybe I could put it this way, I think we can idolize knowledge actually. We can. We can actually turn knowing into an idol in which we now rest all of our confidence that we can figure it out. And I think that's because what we want with knowledge is control. So we're we're faced with all kinds of unsettling uncertainties, and we don't know what to think or who to believe or what to know, and so we just want to feel secure, and we want to feel safe, and we think that knowing the right answers gives us control over this situation. And I just think, I think that's doomed to disappointment. I think we need to approach uncertainly, uncertainty differently.
Joshua Johnson:We're going to move into your new book, make your home in this luminous dark so we're into mysticism, and what it looks like to go into silence and solitude and figure out how to sit in the dark and then come back out into wonder. But you weren't always at this place of like being being really inspired by the mystics to move to this you as a philosopher and somebody, knowledge and certainty was really key for you, so just tell me a little bit of your story as a philosopher. What did philosophy? What was it for you, and what were you trying to do in. Your life trying to master even philosophy.
Unknown:Yeah, it's interesting. My my path into my training and profession as a philosopher are fairly inseparable, actually, from my path into religion and Christianity. So I, you know, I was a kind of relatively late convert to Christian faith, and shortly after, kind of sense this, this calling, if you will, to philosophy. And in many ways, I think I pursued both of them as ways of securing the truth. I think in in both cases, I was looking for a security that came from dogmatic clarity. And so, you know, insofar as I was interested in philosophy, I was interested in, you know, getting the answers, figuring it out, knowing the truth and winning the argument, I would also say was part of the story. You know, there's a there was a the brash young man who for whom every has just a hammer and everyone else is a nail. And this desire to kind of win the argument, I now look back at my younger self and say I was clearly after something other than truth. I was looking for security or belonging or something like that, and and in that sense, philosophy, the philosophy, the reason I got into philosophy, I think, was something other than wisdom. You might say it what you know philosophy is supposed to be, perennially classically. It is the pursuit of wisdom. But I think for me, and I think this is not uncommon for many, especially young professional philosophers, it's less about wisdom and it's more about winning, and it's about winning the argument, and it's about showing that you're the smartest person in the room, or however that plays out. And what's kind of sad and ironic is I probably approached Christianity in exactly the same way, and I imagine that being a person of faith meant I had the secret. I had the corner on the truth. And the question is, would I be able to convince and persuade everybody else? And I hit rocky shores in both of these ventures. I would say,
Joshua Johnson:where did the rocky shores come in to play? How did you brush up against the fact that maybe what you were trying to do was really a cloak to what was underneath the actual things you were pursuing?
Unknown:I mean, for me, it was honestly a season of really debilitating Depression. I found myself in my early and to mid 40s, just kind of plunged into a cloud of despair that I in a way, I couldn't recognize myself, but I also kind of was alienating everybody around me, and it was just becoming so corrosive to my soul and experience. And the two things that happened were my wife, not so gently propelled me into counseling and for our sake. And at the same time, she gave me a copy of St John of the Cross's dark night of the soul and and I still was not in a place at that time to realize how these two things would converge, but I would say my experience of my own depression, I think it's maybe a little bit like the way some people experience confronting their own addiction, which is, you realize you're up against something that you can't think your way out of. And that's that's really sort of an affront to a professional thinker. And in many ways, I think when I first went to counseling and therapy, I thought, Oh, I'm going to go here and somebody's going to teach me the answers, and then I'm going to have this knowledge and understanding and I'm going to get a hold of it. And I realized, no, actually, the adventure of of this therapeutic adventure, was an adventure of letting go, of realizing you can't think your way out of this. And it was very humbling in that regard, but it was also sort of a portal to something else. So I think I came up against an unplumbable depth, which I experienced in despair that was ironically, paradoxically a catalyst for me to kind of realize the limits of philosophy as I knew it, but also maybe open me up to really, finally thinking about what wisdom was as opposed to what knowledge was.
Joshua Johnson:I mean, that's interesting. The times in my life where I've tried to figure things out, where I don't know what's going on. On, I'm pursuing, you know, either a therapist or, you know, a spiritual director. A lot of it, I try to think my way out of it, like, and I know the right things, like, I just know the right things. But it just doesn't work. Because I'm thinking, How did you start to move from a place of, oh, it was. It's not really about thinking a way out of it, especially for a professional thinker, like, that's not an easy thing to do. Like, where did that come in?
Unknown:No, you're asking exactly the right question. I I mean, I think there are kind of multiple factors here. The one I would say, is in the therapeutic journey, I realized that we weren't trying to solve a puzzle. We were re narrating a story and and in that sense, part of the work, the soul work that was happening therapeutically was actually getting me to confront a bunch of things that I had kind of buried and and locked down in a basement, and therefore I had never adequately narrated into my own identity. So so I started to realize that in some ways, the therapeutic journey was a re narration. It was a re that it was restorative, because it was restoring who I thought I was. And so in that sense, it was, it opened me up to realizing the significance of the imagination and not just the intellect. So to move into that space. And by the way, it turns out philosophers also have a lot of things to say about imagination, if you're kind of attuned and you start listening to it, so that that starts unpacking something. For me, the other thing that happened is, and I talk about this a little bit in in make your home in this luminous dark. I started reading poetry again, and I remember reading just being like stopped in my tracks in a bookstore, reading a poem by Franz Wright, who's no longer with us, but somehow the poet in their kind of playful and paradoxical use of language that wasn't didactic and syllogisms, you know, somehow that language both broke open reality for me and pierced Me to the marrow and managed to unlock something of my own pain, my own desires, my own hungers, my own hopes. And I think this, this convergence, then, of the restoring of the imagination that was happening therapeutically is started to be complemented by things I was experiencing in poetry and literature and the arts and so in this it's the imagination I think that was tying those things together.
Joshua Johnson:So opening up the imagination the arts and poetry, what do I get from your book is that you didn't just jump straight into the mysticism, but contemporary art and poetry really helped bridge yourself to that. How did that help? How did the contemporaries help move you to the place of getting into the mysticism?
Unknown:Thank you. Thank you for recognizing that this is an important part of my experience and kind of the the argument of the book, if you will. Yeah, it's right. It's not, you know, I wasn't captivated by the Italian masters or something. You know, it wasn't like devotional art that was sort of doing something for me. It was, in many ways, the difficulty and perplexity and captivation of contemporary arts, poetry, film, painting, sculpture. And I think what was going on is in these forms of contemporary artistic expression, I was meeting a kind of difficulty that was sort of intellectually impenetrable, but imaginatively evocative, like, somehow, I don't know if I'll do a good job of describing this, but there was, there was there, you know, you'd be in a gallery and there would be this, You know, what we would call, maybe, a very abstract piece of art. You know, it wasn't representing anything, it wasn't picturing anything. It wasn't a, you know, a picture of a father and a son, and you're like weeping in front it was more like it would be this painting of, just like, dark, black grooves and streams. Cheeks on a painting, and somehow it had both a lure and violence about it. And there's, there's something like it would just grab hold of me and pull me in, and I would find that I would, I would be before it puzzled, perplexed, curious, wondering, fascinated, unable to sort of say, what does this mean? And yet I was engaged in the experience of being pulled out of myself, in a way. So I guess what I'm trying to say is it's precisely the difficulty and perplexity and allure and paradox of contemporary art to me that was like this exercise. For me, the professional thinker, so to speak. It was this exercise in intellectual failure, and that was a good thing. It was a it was a good thing to be invited into an encounter where I was it wasn't a problem to solve. It wasn't something I would I was going to walk away and say, it means x, but I was held by it, and in some ways, I was able to be quiet and still in these encounters. And that itself also turned out to be a kind of spiritual plowing of the soul, in a way that I think was was making me available. I don't. Does that? Does that make sense?
Joshua Johnson:I That makes sense. I think it's also moving then from the familiar of something where you don't have to be encountered there or contemplate any anything, because it's so familiar, into the unfamiliar, and we live in a world where we're encountered by the familiar constantly, and it just doesn't hit us, yes, how do people then, like, move into the unfamiliar? How do we help ourselves encounter the mystery, the unfamiliar of things, so that we could sit with the unknowing.
Unknown:By the way, I think that's a really good insight you make that that's true in some ways, it was finding a thrill in the unfamiliar, rather than the secure comfort of the familiar and and it strikes me in when you describe it that way. It strikes me that our world, governed by algorithms, keeps wanting me to experience things that I know what to do with. If you like this, you'll love this, and because it's just a continuity, whereas what we're talking about is getting pulled into things. Is like, I don't know what to do with this. How do we get to that place? One is, I don't want to discount the importance of community here. I think, I think, I do think there's a dynamic of putting yourself in conversations and community and relationships and networks where you are going to be pulled into opportunities to be encountered by things that are surprising to you, unsettling to you, that are not familiar, and it's probably not likely that we can do that on our own. We need help. Do you know, I mean, like, I'm always the artists and poets and novelists that I love, I listen to what they love, because I wonder, what are they going to introduce me to? The other thing, though, is, this is where I think there's a there's a bit of a dance and dialectic between these two things, because I think in some ways, to feel comfortable with the unfamiliar, you have to increasingly feel centered in a kind of understanding of yourself that is able to endure risk. So so, you know, I wonder, I this is where I wonder, if there isn't just a bit of back and forth between, on the one hand, in my case, it was this kind of therapeutic journey to start, where I start realizing, oh, despite everything I am loved, despite everything I am loved. And in a way, once that story seeped down into my deepest bones, now it comes with an ability to take the risk of enjoying not being in control. That's what we want to get to, right? In some ways, to to get to a place where you are comfortable with discomfort where where you realize that this experience of being up ended and challenged and encountered by the unfamiliar is actually doing a kind of work in you that you you can't even know. Yet it's, there's a tilling of your soul soil that's happening there. And I think incrementally, little tastes practice and finding the like letting it be its own reward, not instrumentalizing these things, just saying, Oh, this is, this is something good to do. You know, I don't know how tangible we want to get. But somehow, you know my kids, I have grandchildren now, but when our kids were young, our family just became a family where whenever we're in a new town or new place, we go to the art museum and we just wander and you just, you may I do think there's something about creating habits and rhythms and patterns in your life where you're just like, No, I'm going to put myself into uncomfortable places, and you're just like, This is what we do, and that, I think, incubates possibility.
Joshua Johnson:You started to encounter the mystics, Meister, Eckhart, John of the Cross, Theresa of Avila, and you're reading these things. Who are these mystics that that think that getting into the dark and the mystery is a portal into something beautiful and true.
Unknown:Yeah, it's very interesting. So maybe for listeners for whom these are just unfamiliar characters, it's interesting. A lot of these voices, st Teresa of Avila, Meister, Eckhart, the Cloud of Unknowing, which is this amazing anonymous work from the 1300s it's interesting. They're sort of like late Middle Ages, early modernity dynamics. You know, some of these folks are writing at the same time that the Protestant Reformation is happening and unfolding, and things like that. And in many ways, are kind of a response to that. She's a very heady way of thinking about faith and the and the Mystics are like, let's consider other options here. What I found, and again, I, you know, I'm both. I'm encountering the mystics for the sake of my own soul work. But I can't pretend I'm not a philosopher, and so I get philosophically curious about the mystics and what the Mystics are interested in, it seems to me, across the board, is and they have experiences to go along with this. They're saying there is a way of experiencing the profound depth and plenitude and infinity and fullness and transcendence of God that actually eludes and transcends all of our theological categories and concepts. This is why the mystics got themselves in trouble sometimes too. I find that also philosophically fascinating. Do you know what I mean? Like, there's, there's a way in which they're saying there is a kind of awareness, understanding, intuition. It's hard to know what words to use here that that is other than the usual register that we think of knowledge you know, true or false, A or B, this or that you know this, this kind of binary register of our usual instrumental reason and thinking and The way we make our way in the world that there's nothing wrong. I mean, that flies planes and it makes podcast technology work. But what they would say is that's actually a more elementary mode or level of thinking about God. And so Meister Eckhart, for example, famously says, you know, what you need to consider, what you need to risk is praying to God to rid you of God. And you're like, what is but what he's saying is, it's almost like you have to, kind of hear it in scare quotes. It's like, you know, there, there is a Godhead beyond the little box God that you carry in your head and that you believe in, and that who's who's been good to you. But there's, it's like up and in, you know, there's, there's something more to that. And I have found it fascinating.
Joshua Johnson:And then, you know, st Teresa of Avila really made the work of perfect love, casting out fear. And when we have fear, and I think a lot of a lot of things, we want to control, we want certainties so we could eliminate fear. And we believe that knowledge, certitude is going to get rid of fear, right? You know, I've lived in the Middle East, I came back to the United States, and you think of the Middle East when you're surrounded by war and like destruction and things, the people would be fearful constantly. And it's not the same as when I came back to the United States and everybody was afraid, like there was fear. Everywhere. It was weird. It was
Unknown:a strange even though those horrors hardly ever reach our soil. Exactly what a
Joshua Johnson:paradox, so weird. So I think if we move into what Meister Eckhart said is like pray to God to get rid of God, you're actually moving into a place of a deeper level of finding that this perfect love, yes, and I find myself if I'm in the middle of silence and I'm saying perfect love or love speak to me that gets at something deeper for me than my conception of God. So how do you think that what they were trying to do, like silence and solitude and moving deeper into silence gets rid of our conceptions into a deeper thing
Unknown:of, yes, the mystery of God. So, yeah, what, what I talk about in the book, and you know, this is me just trying to distill what I think is the common wisdom across these voices is don't think of mysticism as defined by the ecstatic experience. It sometimes was part of the package, but I just don't think it's actually definitive. I try to talk about mysticism as a path, and therefore a path of journeying and practice. And what the way I see this mystical wisdom is you retreat into solitude in order to find stillness and silence. And in that stillness and silence. Actually, one of the things that happens is your world is turned upside down. You're, this is the darkness, right? You actually, you are. You go through this deeply decentering and upending experience, but that turns out to be the portal to wonder, and that's kind of the path you keep walking. I think to your question, I think what the mystics commonly attest to is, well, first of all, the reason you're looking for solitude and silence is not to hide from the world. It is, though to diminish the distractions, so that our attention has new focus. So what, what you're going for? The reason to retreat into solitude is it's not individualistic. It's not escapism. It's saying it's getting to a place where the incessant distractions, that fritter away our attention to what is deepest. You know, we get, we get, we spend our attention on the superficial. We ought to capitalize on that attention and giving it to the profound depths of the soul, so that that's kind of what you're you're hoping for, is to get to that place, and then the silence piece is really interesting, right? This is why it's a it's a contemplative tradition. You know, the mystics talk about like how to breathe and how to position your body, and what a word that might just help you kind of get to this centered place, and what happens in the silence is, it seems like I think this is the most powerful way to articulate what the mystics say you don't achieve some new union with God. What happens is, when you finally shut out all the noise, your awareness and attention is available to realize you have always been beloved of God, that that God has always been in you, and you are in God, and it's, it's a recognition of What is already the case, and that to hear that deep, deep, profound assurance of being Beloved. This is why perfect love casts out fear. You have to resist what St Teresa calls it, all the little reptiles that are sitting around the interior Castle trying to drag you away from attending to this deep, deep truth. I love this image. You're trying to shut down that noise and those competing voices to attend to this whisper that is always telling you You are loved. You are loved. You are loved. And I think that's where the fearlessness comes from. And I think this is why you it does. It takes practice to kind of, well, the other thing I'll say, I think Theresa, for example, would say, the other thing, we're trying to wean ourselves. Sometimes they use this, this, this metaphor of being the weaned child. We're trying to. Wean ourselves from needing all of the other attention that we get from performing that that to me, I think that's been the real game changer for me in middle life, is realizing to be liberated from this sense that I have to earn and perform and compete for the attention of everybody else so that I can feel worthy, so that I can feel loved. Theresa saying, first of all, that is doomed to disappointment. Attention is incredibly fickle, whereas if I can get to this place where I realize that I'm actually loved by the creator of the Comp Cosmos everywhere, always unconditionally. Now I don't have to. I'm weaned from the need to have your approval, or you like my post or your attention, and I mean that, I guess that's what I'm kind of hoping for, is to live that way.
Joshua Johnson:We could all live that way, like that. What a world that would be.
Unknown:What's beautiful, I hope I'm not jumping ahead on the conversation you want to have. But what's beautiful is both Theresa and John of the Cross then, and actually, so does the Cloud of Unknowing and Brother Lawrence. They all emphasize that this is not some sort of spiritual self absorption, because once you are centered by this deep, profound truth that you can't sort of prove or demonstrate or articulate, you actually it spills over in compassion, because now I don't need to win your approval. I can just be present to you in your need, and I start to see you the way I am realizing God always sees me, and it spills over into this deep compassion, so that the the retreat to solitude is not an aversion to other people. It's actually unlocking and unleashing us to truly be present and care for other people. And again, I think that's that would change a lot of the ways that we are with one another in our contemporary environment where we now, we all feel like I need to be everybody needs to see that I know what I'm supposed to know, or I need to win this argument in this space so that I can feel secure and confident, or that these people will like me. It's like, no, let's let go of all of that.
Joshua Johnson:Well, I'll give you an example. So for the church community that I'm a part of, we're called Nava, which means bring home and make beautiful. And we talk about being beloved children of God all the time. So every time we gather, we're talking about we are the beloved, but beautiful. Sometimes just speaking that out isn't enough. Like people don't they go, Okay, I know this intellectually, that I am beloved, but I don't know it deep into my bones. I don't It's not like filling me, yeah, so for even a community like this, that's a great step in the right direction that we're speaking the truth over people that you are beloved. What is that next step for the community of people, to get to the knowing deep in our bones, belovedness that fills us and not just it's here intellectually, right?
Unknown:Because it The irony is, you can't didactically instruct people about their belovedness. It's the same way when we were saying earlier, you can't think your way out of this insecurity and fear. You can't be instructed into you can't think your way into belovedness, which is kind of an interesting thing, right? I mean, what the mystics testify to is that in cultivating rhythms and practices and rituals of solitude and silence and contemplative listening, and not just listening to somebody else tell me this, but but really just dwelling in the silence and getting used to the discomfort of the silence so that you can eventually start to hear what God is saying back to you. I think every The irony is that your congregation to live this out, also needs to cultivate these personal practice. You know, I haven't thought of it this way before, but I can't contemplate for you now, in some ways, my contemplation is for you. Right? Because, because my, insofar as my contemplation centers me in this truth of my belovedness, it is empowering and enabling me to be available to you and and you know, Theresa says very concretely, when you are hungry, when you are cold, when you are when you are in need. So there's this interesting kind of dialectical relationship between the things that we need to cultivate personally for the sake of our community, to live out that belovedness and compassion. I do, although I and I would be intrigued to hear what you got. I'm sure you are already thinking about this and doing this, it strikes me too that exercises of collaboration and shared experiences of discomfort aren't a bad strategy, either, and I can think of that in two ways, like, for example, I would love it if if churches and congregations thought about arts circles where, where you just come together and you experience weird movies or, you know, funky contemporary music or whatever it might be, and it's just like, let's be uncomfortable together, that that's a great little you know, it's just an incremental practice. But I, but I also I just wouldn't discount to wedding contemplative prayer with works of mercy, in which we are pulled out to serve, shoulder to shoulder, those who are in profound need and vulnerable, and in a sense that too cultivates our our sense of awareness, and there's a kind of spiritual solidarity, I think that happens in that.
Joshua Johnson:I mean, we could get to that. I mean, you kind of end your book with that, like, that's, yeah, like, what does it look like as we we move from, from all of this, getting into the dark, going back into attention and wonder that actually then enlivens us to live in such a way that that love is expressed through us, yes, for the sake of the world, and it confronts hate, yes, and fascism, all the things that we are trying to fight At the moment,
Unknown:like, Yes, exactly, great. So what then?
Joshua Johnson:How is that fight different? If it has been love expressed mercy instead of trying to win the argument,
Unknown:that's great. And I would honestly love to hear how you guys experience this in your community, too. Because, yeah, this is what, this is what, where I try to land. And again, I think this is where the mystics land. Part of what I'm trying to address is, I think some people might have a kind of bumper sticker impression of mysticism as seclusion. Do you know? I mean, like, like a retreat from the world and it's and it would feel like the opposite, for example, of activism. But of course, we have these rich Christian streams of prayer and labor, contemplation and action and and what I'm trying to suggest is that the action for the sake of justice and solidarity and community and love and mercy is best nourished by deep contemplative practices that center us all in our belovedness and an assurance of that that We can't ever quite articulate, and that will make our action, activism, labor and advocacy, look different, because we're not doing it to win. We're not doing it out of an insecurity to show that we know what the right views are, do you know what I mean? Like, there's, there's, there's just a weird, funky dynamic that can happen, where sometimes we get so lost in our action and activism, because actually we are still trying to perform, to be loved and I think it's that that mode of action is doomed to be unsustainable and disappointment, whereas if we talk about a kind of action and labor and work of mercy that comes out of our own centeredness first, we also don't have any illusions that we're in charge, or that we are the great accomplishers. In this regard, we are, in some ways, we're trying to get caught up in what the Spirit is doing in the world. But it also means we can be kind of fearless, because we're not dependent on how people view our virtue in public. Or something like that, right? And I just think that's a very there's, there's something deeply liberating about that.
Joshua Johnson:I mean, that's one of the reasons, one of the many reasons why I love Jesus is that he is this, that he, you know, he moves from contemplation into action, but it's non violent action of love, and it's but it is so like messy for people and disruptive for the world, and it just encounters all of the the evil that is there without the violence that we think that it takes to confront it. Yes, and so he, he's rooted in this contemplative place to be able to do this. I mean, he is also the Son of God, but he is human, yes, yes, right. So, right. How does Jesus show us, like, what, what helps us?
Unknown:And this, this, I think, I mean, you've captured it. I think this is, this is why Howard Thurman is also one of the most important voices in this mystical and contemplative tradition that Jesus is the Jesus of the disinherited. And what do we see in Jesus? He steals away to prayer, right? And he is, he attends to a quiet and solitude and prayerfulness that cultivates a kind of availability to then upend the tables and challenge people in the temple and to reach out compassionately to the sick and the dying. Exactly that kind of centered action that is growing out of a deep love, which therefore doesn't have to be a form of winning or dominating in some ways you are you're not participating in the culture wars, even as you're fighting against the fruit of the culture wars, because you're not, you're not playing that game. It's not a contest of power and domination. It's a, it's an it's a presence of witness and solidarity where you're also you're you. You realize, I mean, I think at the heart of mystical and contemplative spirituality is, it has to be the picture of sort of the open hand. Do you know I mean, because so so much of what the Mystics are inviting us to in solitude and silence is letting go. Just constantly, my star card always talks about what he calls galosen height, this letting go, this letting be. And so you open your hands and you give up control and you you let go of your need to cling to approval and performance. You open your hands and you let go. But the open hand is also how you receive the gift of your belovedness. And what's really interesting for the mystics this is this is true in st Teresa, St John of the Cross, even our capacity for contemplation is a gift. It's not it's not something we are doing. What you're trying to do is you're getting to this place where you are so stripped of your own self confidence that you are, there's a kind of nakedness and bareness and an openness and a vulnerability and an open handedness that to then receive the gift of being able to contemplate and once you know, then you're everything is open handed gift. Now that's how we also act in the world, right? It's just, it's, it's, it's, it's what Walter Brueggemann called the liturgy of abundance, right? I don't have to cling to what's scarce. The cosmos is teeming with God's abundance, and now I go out, collaborating, sharing, working with those open hands,
Joshua Johnson:all of this, it helps the world, but it also, I think, is going to help retrain our ability to be attentive and to pay attention. In this world we have, we're in an attention economy where there everything's vying for our attention constantly. We have reports of film students not being able to sit through a two hour movie, like, like, it's just, right, it's not just, it's not novels, it's not like, you know, War and Peace, they can't sit through a two hour movie. And so this seems to be a way to start to retrain our ability to pay attention. So for people that are in this spot where we've lost the ability to pay attention for a while. What are steps to get us to this process to be able to pay attention?
Unknown:Yeah, and you know, I want to, you know, we can express exasperation, but I have deep sympathy and empathy for those young people in the film class, because we. Made that freaking world. Do you know what I mean? We we bequeath to them that world, and they got raised in it, and so it's not their fault. In some ways, I think you're right. I think some ways, attention is like a muscle. And so I think we can work our way up, you know, you don't start bench pressing 300 pounds. Well, we're never bench pressing 300 pounds, but you don't. You don't start with the heavy weights. You don't, you know, you do shorter reps with lower weights. And I think there's something about that in terms of reclaiming our attention. It's interesting when you read the mystics, and also if you just read in sort of contemplative literature more widely. I mean, I will say, part of what interests me about the mystical tradition is the way that there are kind of really interesting convergences between Jewish mysticism, Christian mysticism, Islamic mysticism, and then Eastern traditions, particularly Buddhist traditions. And I'm not, I'm not evacuating the differences between them, but it's there's interesting kind of overlap about something deeply human and something deeply divine here, and all of them, when you get down to the nitty gritty, they're like, you know, start with a minute or two, you know, like, like, don't, don't think you're gonna sit down and have 30 minutes of quiet rep meditation that nobody does that. I think one way I would love to see is if in our communal gatherings, we actually gave space and time for people to practice silence a little bit. Do you know me? And it's, I don't know enough about your I come out of the Protestant tradition. It's always so freaking noisy. Do you know, I mean, like, just like incessant chatter, we cannot have silence. And I tried to do this in classrooms too, you know, to to create collective spaces where we just practice a kind of awkward refocusing of our attention, and you let everybody feel comfortable with the discomfort, and you just sort of start building that Muscle. There is something to, you know, there's something deeply incarnate and embodied about all of this. You know, like you listen to the Cloud of Unknowing, and he's like, listen to your breath, and when you exhale, just restrict it a little bit. And it's really, really interesting how you just kind of come back into your body as this incarnate creature. And I think to honor that is also a resistance to the evisceration of our embodiment by kind of digitized environments and things so small steps, maybe is the way to start.
Joshua Johnson:That's great. Well, this book, make your home in this luminous dark is fantastic. What would your hope be for this book and for your readers?
Unknown:Oh, yeah, thanks. I mean, I would love it if folks found in the book an encouragement to venture into a discovery of their own belovedness, and if they found, I would love it too, if they if they found the arts, experience of art reframed for them in such a way that the arts are like a spiritual portal and path into what turns out to be really, really significant spiritual disciplines and practices. I think that's that's the imagination piece of it. So I hope the book will be sort of fellow Pilgrim's encouragement
Joshua Johnson:in that regard. Yeah, yeah. I think it'd be great a couple quick questions here at the end for you, Jamie. One, if you go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give?
Unknown:Honestly, I would want to sit him down and say probably two things, it's not your fault, and you are loved. If, if he could have known that he would have saved himself and a lot of other people pain. If I ever get the chance to talk to him, that'll
Joshua Johnson:be what I said, that's good. Or you could have Robin Williams some Good Will Hunting. Say it's not totally
Unknown:I'm picturing that as I say it, and I'm weeping. I'm weeping, yes, absolutely.
Joshua Johnson:That's great. Anything you've been reading or watching lately you could recommend,
Unknown:Oh, interesting. I am watching this fascinating series. This is kind of deep cut. I don't know if folks are familiar with the streaming service Mubi, but there is a series on there called Mussolini, son of the century.
Joshua Johnson:Yeah, I've heard such great things,
Unknown:astounding, esthetically, politically, our. Just, I mean, it is just an incredible adventure in seeing history, I think, really, through this like charged, spiritual lens, in many ways, and yet it feels so disconcertingly contemporary. I just can't say enough about it. I have to find some excuse to write about it.
Joshua Johnson:Amazing, awesome. I'm excited. I've heard so many good things about it. I need to, I need really time. I need to spend some money on Mubi and go
Unknown:check it out. There's a 30 day free trial, so you can start that way.
Joshua Johnson:Yeah, there you go. Well, there's one can. I don't know if you have a couple minutes for one last question that, yeah, I wanted to ask you that I didn't get to. But for you, I What does philosophy look like now, as opposed to what it looked like before?
Unknown:Yeah, I think, I mean, I still, it's interesting. I having come through this journey now in sort of mid career, middle life, I'm like, just so jazzed by philosophy again, I feel like I'm a student again. But I think it's because I'm realizing, oh, philosophy isn't just about winning the argument. It's about this venture in wisdom, and it's about how to live and and I think I'm, I'm newly fascinated by philosophy that seems impenetrable to me. I'm just a I'm hugely absorbed by Hegel, right now, 19th century German philosopher who's who's notoriously opaque and difficult, but somehow, like those art experiences, I'm just finding, if I can spend time with him, he repays a sort of wisdom that actually pays off for my students, like, how should we be living right now? And so I'm really energized by philosophy in that way.
Joshua Johnson:Again, amazing. That's so good. Well, make your home in this luminous Stark will be available March 24 anywhere books are sold. It's a fantastic book, and I think if people can, can get it, can read it and then start to live these practices and go on this journey, we're going to get to a much better world so that we could actually let go of the certainty, we could surrender to God, that we could actually encounter fear, but then the perfect love that then drives out that fear, and we say no longer, and we just like be absorbed with the love of God. And it would be fantastic. It would be good Jamie, anywhere that you'd like to point people to. How could they connect with you or what you're doing.
Unknown:I'm at James ka smith.com and if you go there, you can find I have a sub stack. I'm on a bit of a tour, nothing in Kansas City, but right now, but if I might be in neighborhoods where some of your listeners are. So we'd love to meet readers. Thanks so much for for your close reading of it and really grasping the book. I appreciate it.
Joshua Johnson:Yeah, it was a fantastic conversation. So thank you so much. It was it was deep. I know a lot of people probably got a lot out of it. So thank you so much. Thanks. Joshua, you you.
