Ep. 411 Mark DeYmaz Returns - Make Me an Instrument of Your Peace

Mark DeYmaz - pastor, author, and longtime leader in building multi-ethnic, economically diverse churches returns to talk about what it actually means to be a peacemaker in a divided world. We center the conversation on the Prayer of St. Francis and explore the difference between claiming the name of Christ and embodying his way, why nuance and listening matter, and how to hold tension without trying to escape it. Mark shares practical ways to pursue peace in everyday relationships and in the broader culture, and we wrestle with how to live with both hope and despair at the same time. If we’re going to reflect Jesus in the world, this is work we can’t avoid.

A thought-leading writer and recognized champion of the Multiethnic Church Movement, Mark planted the Mosaic Church of Central Arkansas (mosaicchurch.net) in 2001 where he continues to serve as Directional Leader. In 2004, he co-founded the Mosaix Global Network (mosaix.info), with Dr. George Yancey, today serving as its president and convener of the triennial National Multi-ethnic Church Conference. In 2008, he launched Vine and Village (vineandvillage.org) and remains active on the board of this 501(c)(3) non-profit focused on the spiritual, social, and financial transformation of Little Rock's University District.

Mark has written several books, The Coming Revolution in Church Economics (Baker Books, 2019); Disruption: Repurposing the Church to Redeem the Community (Thomas Nelson, 2017); and Multiethnic Conversations: an Eight Week Guide to Unity in Your Church (Wesleyan Publishing House, 2016), the first daily devotional, small group curriculum on the subject for people in the pews. His book, Building a Healthy Multi-Ethnic Church (Jossey-Bass, 2007), was a finalist for a Christianity Today Book of the Year Award (2008) and for a Resource of the Year Award (2008) sponsored by Outreach magazine. Other works include, re:MIX: Transitioning Your Church to Living Color (Abingdon, 2016); Leading a Healthy Multi-Ethnic Church (formerly Ethnic Blends; Zondervan, 2010, 2013), and the e-Book, Should Pastors Accept or Reject the Homogeneous Unit Principle? (Mosaix Global Network, 2011). In addition to books, he is a contributing editor for Outreach magazine where his column, "Mosaic" appears in each issue. 

He and his wife, Linda, have been married for thirty-two years and reside in Little Rock, AR. Linda is the author of the certified best-seller, Mommy, Please Don't Cry: There Are No Tears in Heaven (Multnomah, 1996), an anointed resource providing hope and comfort for those who grieve the loss of a child. Mark and Linda have four adult children and three grandchildren. 

Mark's Book:

Make Me An Instrument of Your Peace

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Transcript

Mark DeYmaz: 0:00

Lord, make me an instrument of your peace where there is hatred, let me sow love where there is injury, pardon where there is doubt, faith, despair, hope, darkness, light, sadness, joy. O divine, Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console to be understood, as to understand to be loved, as to love for it is in giving that we receive. It is in pardoning that we are pardoned, and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life. Amen,

Joshua Johnson: 0:40

Mark. Hello and welcome to the shifting culture podcast in which we have conversations about the culture we create and the impact we can make. We long to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. In this episode, I'm joined once again by Mark demos. Mark is a pastor who has spent decades building multi ethnic, economically diverse churches and working toward reconciliation in divided communities, we talk about what it actually means to be a peacemaker in a time marked by polarization, distrust and constant reaction. We center our conversation around the prayer of St Francis, make me an instrument of your peace and what it looks like to live that out in real life. We cover the difference between claiming the name of Christ and embodying his way. Why nuance and listening matters, how to move beyond outrage and how to hold tension without trying to escape it. Mark shares practical ways to pursue peace in everyday relationships and in the broader culture. If we want to reflect Jesus in the world, this is work we can't avoid. So join us. Here is my conversation with Mark, demos. Mark, welcome back to shifting culture. Excited to have you back on

Mark DeYmaz: 1:57

Yeah, Joshua, it's been what like four years. And I think the last time we were together, we were talking about the economic state of affairs for the local church. So glad to have this conversation today about peacemaking.

Joshua Johnson: 2:08

Yes, and so we were talking about economics, and economics are really important. We got to figure out what to do with our buildings and have different economic strategies to actually keep going in the church. But really what we need in the church is to figure out how to be an instrument of God's peace, the peace of Christ in the world. Because if we're not doing that, then the church is really just building with people in it. So we got to figure this out. This is really good. So I'm glad you. You stepped into walking through the prayer of St Francis, which is the peace prayer. This is a prayer that I think is important, especially in a in a world that we live in now, which is chaotic. It's full of division, polarization. It's really like it's just shouting matches that it seems to be. Why did you take this to task? Why is the prayer of St Francis important in this moment.

Mark DeYmaz: 3:03

Yeah, a great question. Again. Great to be with you. You know, this project started really just as a teaching series in our own church several years ago. I talked to pastors all the time. You You had a pre pandemic church, you had a pandemic church, and then roughly around 2022, or so, you started a new church, the post pandemic church, and as we all know, throughout those three iterations of the church, there was a lot of shifting, people, leaving churches, coming to churches, deconstructing their faith on the one side, or other people really wanting to get engaged with a church that was multi ethnic and making a difference in their community. So with all that in mind, in our own churches, we rebooted, if you will, in 2022, or so, on the post side of the pandemic. You know, in a sense, we just said, how do we create spiritual formation in our culture for our own people post pandemic, given that we had an influx of so many new people everywhere, from people that are trying to find their way back to Jesus don't know Jesus, all the way to spiritually mature Christians coming from other places and so literally, Joshua to this day, all we do is talk about Jesus on Sunday mornings. We're in a series right now in the Beatitudes, but back then, several years ago, I introduced we have four teaching pastors, but we brought up the idea, let's walk through this prayer, and it had to do in two parts. One was the research that was behind the he gets us campaign that says 80% of US adults in America today have a favorable view of Jesus, but a very high percentage have a distrust of Christians and the church. So they love Jesus. They like Jesus. They got no problem with Jesus. He's empathetic, you know, but they got a problem with Christians in the church for all kinds of reasons, as I'm sure you've talked with other guests, or you may have talked about on your podcast before. So all to say, the language of that research and the and really, what's behind the he gets this. Campaign is encouraging Christians, particularly, to engage people at the bridge of Christ's humanity, as they call it, engage at the bridge of Christ's humanity, instead of going right for the jugular, spiritual jugular, so to speak. Hey, let me tell you about a virgin birth. Let me tell you about a trinity. Let me tell you, you know, no, let's start by meeting real needs, empathetic needs, social needs, et cetera, at the bridge of Christ's humanity, and as Young Life said forever ago, earn the right to be heard so to speak, so that in time, we can move people up to the bridge of Christ's divinity and hopefully see them cross that. So all to say, We did it as a series in our church. It came because in terms of the prayer, I was raised Jesuit Catholic, and I grew into a more expressive, or I should say, I took more personal responsibility for my faith in college, and eventually that led me into the Protestant side of the house, so to speak, and into full time ministry, which I've been in for 43 years. So I was very familiar. I grew up in Catholic schools, Jesuit, educated. Altar boy, worked in the rectories, so the prayer of St Francis was just a common place in so many aspects of my walk with Christ as a Catholic, but on the Protestant side of the house, outside of a few mainline churches here and there, you don't often hear that prayer talked about, preached, proclaimed. And so we leveraged my experience, and particularly this prayer, to do, as I said, to begin formation with our own church. And of course, along the way, it's like people were really responding to that. And as you alluded to at the start, and hear your first question, you know, the times are just getting more and more chaotic, and how do you respond? So it just seemed like it would be they book in a message for beyond just our church. And of course, now press is a great publisher, and really, you know, it kind of fit their, their category. So that's how it came about, and that's why I

Joshua Johnson: 6:44

leaned into it. The Jesuit aspect of action and contemplation is really, I don't know, it's inspirational to me, and it's, it actually makes, makes a lot of sense, and I could grasp a hold of that. How have you taken some of that aspect into your adulthood of what does it look like to follow Christ?

Mark DeYmaz: 7:04

Yeah, it's such a great question, and it's similar to what we're talking about in a whole different route as well. No perfect Catholic order, Jesuits, Benedictines, no perfect Protestant churches, Baptist Methodist, right? We're all human, just trying to do the best we can. So while you can point out a lot of faults about the Jesuits or other Catholic orders, one of the things, as you allude to, one of the things that's really amazing is they had, from the start, a missional, we might call it missional vibrancy. They went into hard to reach places, almost like you might think about them as the Navy SEALs. You know, I they're not trying to build big aircraft carriers and fly a bunch of planes and and have all this overhead, they were like, you know, spiritual Navy SEALs. Give it a backpack, you know, a 200 pound backpack, and dropped into a war zone and say, good luck. And, and that's what the the Jesuits were like. And so in my own work, I left a very large, mega wealthy, you know, I could say a lot of other adjectives by the church, amazing church, back 25 years ago, but I felt like I was called to come to the inner city of Little Rock to take on the difficult task of trying to build a truly healthy, multi ethnic and economically diverse church. Men and women, Jews and Gentiles, as Paul would say, are black, white, Asian, Hispanic people you know, literally addicted to opioids, literally dying on or adjacent to our property, sitting next to doctors, Republicans and Democrats. And could these people will themselves to walk, work and worship God together as one for the sake of the Gospel, Christ lifted up, drawing all people, not some people, to himself. So that's very much a Jesuit mission, if you will. And I feel very formed by the Jesuits to come and be incarnational in a community, of course, that's modeled after Christ Himself, who became incarnational in the world. But when the Jesuits would go into these places, these difficult places, as I followed in their footsteps, so to speak, 25 years ago here, you're basically developing cultural intelligence. You're not bringing the Gospel to a culture, and that's very much Jesuit formation and incarnation. You are actually coming and becoming immersed in the culture and bringing the Gospel through the culture and and so, of course, you know, coming to the inner city and surrounded by highest violent crime in the city and food insecurity and on and on, I could go, you know, I came very much with a humble, listening, learning attitude formed by the Jesuits to become incarnational in this community and do a work that would bless this community, raise its spirits, give it hope, bring to it joy, And by God's grace, we're still here, like 25 years later, Joshua, making an impact for the Christ and kingdom here in this difficult spot. So all to say that's in part how I being formed as a Jesuit. Even though I'm Protestant, even though I, you know, I'm in a non denominational church, I very much still carry my Jesuit roots with me in. The work that I do, the

Joshua Johnson: 10:01

prayer of St Francis starts out with, make me an instrument of your peace. It's actually the title of your book as well. It's an important aspect. And in your second chapter, you talk about, to actually start to do some of this. We need to identify with Christ, but also then embody his anointing. And a lot of people claim the name of Christ, talk about the name of Christ, but don't embody that anointing. So what's that distinction? How can you help us figure out, what does it look like to embody the anointing of Christ?

Mark DeYmaz: 10:34

Yeah, such a great question. I really appreciate you leaning into theology, because just like all the work that I do. It always begins and is rooted in what I believe is strong and exegetically sound theology. And so what I was doing in chapter two was imagining this anonymous writer. Because, as we haven't talked about yet, this prayer actually wasn't written by St Francis. It was written or published anonymously in 1912 in Paris, France, by the Holy League for the Catholic mass in Paris. And so nobody ever, nobody knows who wrote the prayer. Could have been a man, could have been a woman, but it was published in French in Paris 1912 it later got associated with St Francis. So having said that, then I imagined this, this writer of the prayer. What was he or she thinking at the time, where would they have got this juxtaposition, where there is hatred, let me so love, where there's injury, pardon, doubt, faith, obviously, those are juxtaposed words, and very poetic in a sense. And so as I reflected on that, opened the Word of God I imagined. And you know, I mean, if I was a betting man, so to speak. I'd put money on the fact they're reading Isaiah and later Luke four, because this is describing the coming Anointed One. And the word anointed is where we get the word Christ, right? That this capital A Anointed One, as we call the Christ of the Messiah, someday will come to set the captive. So you're in prison, but you will be set free, right? You are without hope. He will give you hope. You and on and on. And so that those words, that juxtaposition, is right there in Isaiah, when the Prophet is describing the coming Anointed One. And so then later, of course, in Luke, chapter four, Christ embraces that identity. He's given a scroll. He stands up in his hometown, in the synagogue, and he turns, you know, it's right there, and he comments, he says, Today this passage is fulfilled in your midst, like he's basically, well, I'm that guy. I am the anointed one, right? And so I am the theology behind the prayer. While I can't say for certain, it seems to me, rooted in the passage in Isaiah, and therefore in Luke chapter four, because of the juxtaposition of those words and the idea. Now having said that, as you said, we are. We call ourselves Christians, first applied in Acts. Chapter in the multiethnic nature of Acts, Acts. Chapter 11, the church at Antioch, Christ means anointed, the Messiah. The capital A Anointed One, but we are little a anointed ones, and we that's why we're Christians, right. Think about it like you know, with this anointing, when we identify with Christ, and particularly in the Beatitudes, Matthew, chapter five, verse nine, Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God. Think about that. It is the only beatitude that you don't get something for what you do. Blessed are the meek. They'll get the earth right. And so there's something you get because of something you do. And every beatitude except for one, and that's Matthew five nine. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be I'll say it differently, identified with Christ is identified as the children of God, and there's no closer we can be in terms of embodiment, in terms of action. There's nothing more close, or closer, I should say, nothing closer to the heart of God and for our own identity with Christ than following in his steps as a peacemaker. He's the capital P Peacemaker. We're to be the little P peacemakers. He's a capital, a Anointed One. We, too have been anointed through our salvation and what Christ has given us on the cross, and we're to walk out that anointing by embodying the work

Joshua Johnson: 14:11

of peacemaking. So then, what is the work of peacemaking? Is it something just to make everybody get along? Or what does like true peacemaking? True peace look like with Christ?

Mark DeYmaz: 15:24

Such a great question, and really at the heart of why we taught several years ago in our church, and then I wrote this book, because the anonymous writer of the prayer, as you'll notice, the prayer is very aspirational, right? Make me an instrument of your peace, Lord. Where there is faith, let me sow love, injury, pardon, doubt, faith, but those are aspirational goals that the author, of course, it's not the purpose of the poem or the prayer, but the author doesn't tell us how to do that, and that's exactly what the book does. It takes each line of this prayer and says, Okay, let's flesh out what does it mean to sow hatred? Us in the midst of love, how do we extend forgiveness or pardon to those who've offended us? And so obviously, that's the root of your question there. Now, how do we do this? I would back up to say, you know, first, why? Why should we do this? In a sense, we just leaned into that. How do we do it at a general level? Means We embrace this attitude, which was in us, which was also in Christ. Jesus, Philippians chapter two, where it says, Do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interest of others. And this is a command and exhortation from the Apostle Paul. And then he gives us an example of how to live this out. So I'm very much doing a Simon Sinek thing here with you. Why is the theology right now? We're in the how part and the general how, before we get to the what and the how is we are to have the attitude in us, which was also in Christ, Jesus, who, although He existed, you know, in the heavenly places, it says He emptied Himself. Now that word, and when you study Paul, the life of Paul, you really understand what he's saying. He's basically saying this. Christ had all power, all position and all privilege. There's nobody who's ever been more powerful than Christ. Nobody's ever been more positioned at the right hand of God. Nobody's been more privileged. Throw yourself off the temple. Angels will bring up the limousine and catch you right, but think about it. What is every demographic group in America today doing? Every single demographic group in this country is either fighting to attain power position of privilege that they don't have, or to maintain power position of privilege that they do have. But what we have in Christ and the apostle Paul, having the attitude that's in Christ, thinking of others is more important than yourself. It's we're to embody and have the attitude of Christ in us. So what he did is he came down, he let he leveraged that power position of privilege. He could have lorded it over us, right? That's the old school yard game. You know? Maybe people are listening. I don't know if you're old enough to remember, but I certainly am. At 64 there was a little game, you know, on the school yard called King of the Hill. And it's just a little berm, a little, little, tiny, little hill or bump on the playground or the yard, and, and how do you be king of the hill? All the little kids, we'd all try to scramble up to the top. And the way you maintain, and you're a king of the hill, is by pushing everybody else down, and they're trying to pull you down, and you try to keep them down and push them down. Christ did not come to be king of the hill. He came to be king of the world. And if you're going to be king of the world, you don't stay on top and push others down with your power position or privilege, whatever measure you have, you go down and you leverage those things to push others up. My good friend and in many ways a mentor, Dr John Perkins, told me years ago, it's not enough to give a man a fish. You feed him for a day. It's not even enough to teach a man to fish, you feed him for a lifetime. Ultimately, you want to help someone else own the pond. And so when I think about the general how of peacemaking, it's adopting and embodying, embracing that attitude, which was also in Christ, Jesus. And then Paul says, and because he did that, his name was highly exalted. In other he, it's a he was already exalted. I don't know how any higher you could get exalted if you're Jesus Christ, but, but the principle is, this is what gives God pleasure. This is how we are. We actually make an impact. We are. We are blessed in that work. Our name. It's not about our name, but the name of God. It's about being exalted. It's being recognized. You're actually making a difference. And of course, Matthew five, verse 16, we're making that difference, doing good work for Christ. All That's to say, it gets us down to some practical what. So you have to understand the why, theologically, embrace the attitude of Christ at a how level. And then, of course, the book fleshes out some of the whats. So I want to know what

Joshua Johnson: 19:51

ultimately we're aiming for. And I think we've, we've gotten, we've hit a few things, is that we're, we're aiming for something that actually lifts people up and doesn't push people down. That, what Dr John Perkins said is, is actually then helping them, people own a piece of the ponds, which means that we all have a part to play. And there's all agency for everybody, and not just a few. Is there anything else that then we're aiming for that, then these practicals can

Mark DeYmaz: 20:22

get us there, yeah, for sure. So going right down to sea level, if you will, in somewhat, of course, you know, in a short podcast, we can't explore every line of the poem or of the prayer I should say, and that's what the book is about. But several years ago, this wasn't the first time I was thinking about peacemaking. I'm a contributing editor and one of my columnists, I should say, for outreach magazine. So I wrote an article several years ago on on and seven guiding principles for promoting peace and and this really is something at sea level. I think I put this in the book somewhere, but very practically, how we can what we can do. Practically to sow peace, amongst many other things that are broadly explored in the book. But number one is avoid dogmatic statements. Like just avoid dogmatic statements. There's a dogmatic statement. I literally just wrote another article for outreach on this right now, and another topic for another day. But this is a dogmatic statement. Silence is complicity, and that's a very popular phrase going back at least 10 to 15 years, that silence is complicity. And what that's doing, it's driven us, whether you're on the far left, far right, in the middle, whatever we all feel. And of course, we have the means, through social media, that we've got to speak about every issue, the halftime of the Super Bowl or or, you know, foreign affairs or the Federal Reserve, like we don't even know what we're talking about. All we know is what we're being fed through algorithms and all that. But we but this phrase is a dogmatic statement. Silence is complicity, as I've thought about that phrase, silence can be complicity, right? Silence can be complicity, but it's not always complicity, because Solomon tells us that silence is sometimes wisdom. It's wise to be silent. There is a time to speak and there is a time to remain silent. James calls it moral discipline, right, be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger. But that verse is inverted in our culture today, and people are rewarded for being not being quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger, but being quick to shine. You know, no, I'm not gonna listen. I'm gonna tell you what I think. They're gonna make direct statements. And we've given up our witness to make points. And so this is an example of a dogmatic statement that we have to take a step back. And this is part of another thing that we can do on the what side is we have to think and speak with Nuance. Think. And it feels to me, the entire American culture has lost its ability to think and speak with Nuance. So speaking with Nuance would be taking a dogmatic statement. Let's, let's say that you said silence is complicity. Mark and I might say, well, you know, I've thought about that in Joshua. And yes, silence can be complicity sometimes, but it can also be an act of wisdom or moral discipline. And I think it depends on the context, right? And you see how what I've just done in that is, this is another what, right? I added balance to the discussion. I acknowledged complexities, and all of these are some of the points I put in the article. Right. I want to assume the best of others. I don't want to assume you're my enemy. I want to assume the best in others. I I've been fond for I don't know forever, because I believe in this that everybody's right about something. That's I've said that to myself forever, everybody's right about something. So even if I'm diametrically opposed to you in terms of most of your opinions, when I'm engaging, when I'm reading, when I'm thinking, listening, watching TV, at a newscast, whether CNN or Fox News, which I try to, you know, do the balance everybody's saying something that's right. It may not be all right. It may not be everything I understand or agree with or fit my lived experience, but I want to listen from a posture, what is that person saying that, in a sense, I could find common ground with, and I'm listening for that right? And then, of course, being you know, pausing before you speak, I did another podcast. I think it was yesterday, actually, and the person that was interviewing me talked about how they have a file on their computer and like a folder, I should say, and it's an email folder, and when they when they want to get something off their chest, or they want to respond to something, whatever he says, he said, I write an email, and then I move it into that folder, and I come back to the folder a few days later and say, Do I really want to say that now? Of course, we could apply that to social media posting, you know, et cetera, but that would be another very practical what is to pause before you speak. So I've just rattled off some, not in a linear way, but these are some of the very practical What's that are tied to this prayer? Because when we are acknowledging complexity, when we are adding balance to the discussion, when we're thinking and speaking with Nuance or avoiding dogmatic statements in one way or another, we're embodying the Beatitudes, and particularly as we're talking here, the prayer and the ways of

Joshua Johnson: 25:55

Christ, I think, as we were, I want to dive into the prayer itself and then talk about some of these aspects. Do you have the prayer with you? Can you read the prayer for us so that we

Mark DeYmaz: 26:05

have it? Well, I am 64 so I'll just say that up front, but I don't have it in front of me, but I memorized it, and I prayed it many times through my life, so I think I can get it right, and I just won't read it. But let me just pause with you and your listeners, and let's just pray this prayer together, right? Lord, make me an instrument of your peace where there is hatred. Let me sow love where there is injury, pardon where there is doubt, faith, despair, hope, darkness, light, sadness, joy. O divine, Master, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console to be. Understood as to understand to be loved as to love for it is in giving that we receive. It is in pardoning that we are pardoned. And it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.

Joshua Johnson: 26:52

Amen. Amen. That's such a beautiful prayer that if we can get let that seep into our bones and start to embody it and live it in the world, and not just be a platitude that we say, it can change everything in the world. It could change the course of of Christianity and the world itself. A lot of people around me, although they they claim to have hope in Christ. They're full of despair, full of dread, this world is going to hell, is what they're they're saying just because we see images of dehumanization every day, we see constant things thrown at us that are just like everything's all the evil of the world gets thrown at us, and we have to, like, put it on our shoulders and handle it in the midst of this despair. Is this actually possible? Is hope possible in the midst of all of this despair?

Mark DeYmaz: 27:55

Yeah, when you're talking about that, and my mind goes to a couple places, and particularly out of the prayer where there's despair, hope, sadness, joy, those are a couple parts of the prayer that some of your reflections, kind of you know, are in. And part of what I'd respond to is, when you're talking about fear, what's the opposite of fear? It's faith. And we are the people of faith. We're supposed to be the people of faith, right? And we're just, but we are, more often than not, we are not only receiving things that make us fearful, but we're embracing those things and becoming afraid. And none of that bodes well for representing Christ well in this world, we are supposed to be the people of faith. And of course, that's not a blind faith, not a you know how, Oh, don't worry about it. Of course, we're going to be intentional and thoughtful about things. But at the end of the day, as we dive, you know, deep into a subject, or deep into concerns or facing anxiety, you know the fact that we are Christ. We are Christians, abiding the anointing of Christ, walking in his way, is to flip that and to have faith, to see the good in other people, to see the positive and what's happening even in this despair. Such a little example of this, of course, so I don't want to diminish because we all experience, you know, darkness and and despair and all that. But literally, the other day, we had a freeze here in Arkansas. To make a long story short, a squirrel was trapped in our house. It chewed through two water lines, and we, you know, water came pouring out, fortunately, you know. And I had a plumber the day before this ice storm. He said, You know, you ought to turn the water off to this house, you know, just in case a pipe breaks. I said, I'd never thought about doing that. Thank you so much. Let's do it. So then 10 days later he comes back, or seven days later, to turn on the water to this particular house. And that's when we discovered the squirrel truth of life, because all of a sudden he turned it on, and water's pouring out of a ceiling, and it ran for about five minutes, just long enough to, you know, ruin a bathroom ceiling, and we have to paint couple places and, you know, okay, it's going to cost us, you know, money I don't have, but several $1,000 to fix, and it's in process. So there's, again, such a little example. I mean, there's emotion and pain and harm. But what happened was my wife got real discouraged for a moment, man, you know, and well, and I said, and so, yeah, I feel that same pain. Who's got 3000 4000 to fix it, whatever. I don't want to charge insurance. Want to charge insurance. But I then flipped it and I said, But, but remember that plumber was a godsend, because if that plumber hadn't come the day before, we would have lost the entire downstairs of this house, and it would have been 10s of 1000s of dollars, potentially in rehab. So my point is, again, very not to dismiss harm and pain and trauma and the emotion that we all feel. But just this example is of someone feeling a moment where there's this fear, how am I going to pay for this? Where am I going to get the money, you know, and having that concern, but then looking, as they say, on the bright side, and not to just be happy. But no, I believe God sent us that plumber because it was a random thing, and it did that. So the point is, we're to be people of faith. We're to look for God, to trust God in the midst of pain, to look for God, to see God working in the midst of harm and hurt and pain, and again, not dismiss it, dive into it, but to flip that and be the people of faith, Joy is very similar, right? Because joy isn't about being happy. Joy is being rooted and anchored in a in a God who loves you, who never leaves you, who is there and even in the valley of the shadow of death, right? He is with us, and the way I think about joy. Joshua is like the old schoolyard game, again, of a tetherball, because if you remember the game, there's a pole that's anchored in concrete, just fixed solid in the asphalt or whatever, and then there's a ball that's on a rope or whatever chain, and kids hit it, and the ball goes up and it down, it goes back and forward and all around, and it's just, you know, going crazy back and forth with me, but at some point, when you step away from it, that ball and that chain just come and fall, because of gravity, of course, just fall still and rest, and it's not moving anymore. It's just at rest, anchored in that pole. And this is what gives us joy in the midst of sorrow, in the midst of pain. And when I say the midst, it doesn't mean like it's a five minutes. You flip this. It could be an entire season. It could be three years. It could be five years. We've lost a child and many other experiences in our own life. You know, 40 years of marriage and and being a pastor, 43 there are seasons of sorrow, I can tell you. When you lose a child, you lose a loved one, somebody betrays you, et cetera. When that happens, it takes about five years for that to work out of your system. Similar, when we fall into sin and pain, it can take five years to reset. It's almost like there's 100% raw in the first year, then 8060, 4020, and even the pain of losing a child, it never goes away. You just learn to carry it and and because it'll never go away. And so the point is, when I say, you know, turning you know fear to faith or or see the bright side, I'm not talking about do it in five minutes. Sometimes it can be several years, but, but again, you can find joy in the midst of that, as you learn to carry that trauma and pain, et cetera, as you process it as you should. Because we have a tetherball pole that we're attached to, and that pole is Jesus Christ, and there will be a moment and a day coming when that chaos will settle at his feet. And we have that hope and that joy, not that we're happy, but that we have joy, because we're anchored to someone who is fixed and solid, who will never leave us, never

Joshua Johnson: 33:47

forsake us. Yeah, in the midst of all of this, this pain that we have in this world, He is faithful. He is fixed. He's unchanging. He is he's solid. And we're not always there, but we're fixed to him, which is beautiful. But we live in this place of the of the now, but not yet, of of the kingdom of God, right? There's we're going to see in the consummation, in the end, Jesus reconciling and making all things new. But we get some foretaste of it now. But in this prayer, the beginning, the first paragraph of this prayer, injury, pardon, doubt, faith, despair, hope. It feels like that we're holding both of these. There's a tension, and there's a paradox of our world today, because we live in the now and the not yet. How do we not just give like these platitudes of saying we're going to dismiss this, the bad stuff that we're carrying, and we're just going to focus on the good stuff. How do you hold both but still have that hope and the joy and the faith when you're holding both?

Mark DeYmaz: 34:53

Yeah, I don't want to just say this like pejorative. That's a great question. I really mean that's a great question, and it's a great insight and and to answer it, let's think about I'll just give you kind of the answer, and then we'll work back through the math problem Christ and unity and hope and faith. It's all found in tension. And there's two ways to look at Tension. Tension is fighting like me and you are at odds. We're fighting each other. We're throwing blows back and forth. And there's a tension to our relationship, or we, you know, it's tense, but there's another tension that keeps us all together and holds on, and it's represented by Christ, who died on the cross with his arms outstretched. If I am lifted up, I will draw all people, not just some people, to myself. And if you think about the picture of Christ on the cross with his arms outstretched. He's holding Republicans on one arm, the right arm, and and he's holding Democrats on the left arm. I mean, just think about it, right blacks and whites and Asians and Hispanics and rich and poor and all these demographic this, the divisions that our world is imposed upon us. He holds, like the old song, he holds, got the whole world in His hands. Why would you think about that? He's got all people in his arms. And he doesn't let go of the right arm, which, in a sense, politically would be let go of the demo of the Republicans to embrace the Democrats. Nor does he let go of the Democrats to replace embrace the Republicans. He holds everyone intention, and that tension is actually where the unity is. The tension is actually where the peace is. You don't run from peace. You don't run from that. No, you run to it any whole. And that's, that's a, you know, we do that in building multi ethnic churches in the 20th century. The whole goal of a pastor was to make everybody feel. Comfortable in the 21st Century, given generational shifts, demographic expansion, et cetera, you better learn as a pastor to get people comfortable with tension, because that's where the unity is. That's why I can have in our church blacks and whites and et cetera, and Republican and Democrat. We have them in our church because they they found unity in Christ, he draws all people, and there's a seat at the table for everyone, and everybody's got to give up a little bit of something. That's what Paul says. Philippians two, not just looking out for the interest of white people. I, as a white person, have to also think about the instrument, and I expect that from African Americans and others too. So to your insight to this tension, yes, it's real, but it's not a bad thing, and it's not resolved by choosing one over the other. It's resolved by finding peace and hope and joy at the foot of the cross, at the tetherball pole, if you will, by leaning into that tension. And then, at a macro level, we are just part of this long arc of story, right? His story. I watched a great I thought it was great. I think Amazon, which, Netflix, prime, whatever. But it's this story of the expansion of the church from the first century. It's like eight or 10 episodes. It's, I don't remember the famous actor who narrates the thing, but it, but it shows this arc, and it starts in Jerusalem and Antioch, and then it's like, eventually you get to Rome and, like, the third and fourth century, and then, you know, down the road, you're literally to Australia, New Zealand, China and all these places. And I watched that thing, and I was fascinated, because it really elevated my like I am part, and we are part. And this church and your church, we're just a part. We're just a long part of this tension that exists from Christ or from God, creating us in the garden, setting us off the introduction of sin. God Himself lives in this tension, and we so in the tension between the now and the not the yet. So if God lives in that tension, we ought to live in it too, right? He and we're playing that long game. And the point, how do you live in that tension is, as I just my simple little story about the plumber, what you do is, you learn and you you you see God. Where is God? Because God is always speaking. He's always present. The question is, are we listening? Are we looking for him? So in the tension of life, in the tension between hate and love, in the tension of the long arc of Christ and kingdom, where is God? How do I see God? I need to look for him, because he's there. But am I looking? So I need to look and have eyes to see where is he now? Where is he speaking? What is he doing? What is he saying? I need to learn to trust him in that. I need to obey Him. What is he asking me to do today in obedience to Him, so as I look for Him and find Him as I as I trust him, as I obey Him, as I let him be God. You know, one of the greatest phrases I share with our church again, as we I say it regularly, there is a God and you're not him, right? I mean, like there is a God and Mark DeVos is not it. He's not it. So, trusting, obeying, looking for finding, seeing him and running to the tension, not from it under the anointing of Christ, to be a peacemaker and to play a part in this kingdom story, even if it's a simple neighbor to neighbor level, or at a collective church level, or even, you know, some Christ centered folks or politicians and others are artists and musicians. Wherever you are, you're part of a grander story. Run to the tension, not from it with the anointing of Christ, you know, advancing faith, peace, hope and love for the sake

Joshua Johnson: 40:23

of the kingdom. You know the second, the second paragraph of this prayer says, grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console, to be understood, as to understand, to be loved, as to love. And it feels like that. I don't want to just dismiss that I get to receive the end of the peacemaking. I would like it if somebody would come to me and console me and to love me. But it feels like the prayer is to whoever's praying this prayer is the one actually making the first move and going after it, and not living in a state of entitlement. And I think that's the big thing. I think a lot of people are living and I mean, we're in America, we're entitled to everything. We have all of our inalienable rights, and we have all of our access to peace, and I mean happiness, and all of this thing. So how do we then actually seek a reciprocal relationship without being entitled to it?

Mark DeYmaz: 41:31

Yeah, you know, I think of a couple things in response to that question. One is, just recently, I heard someone talking about we live in. A empathetic therapy culture, like everybody's going to therapy, everybody's sitting at a counselor's office and getting therapy, and there is a 100% place for that. But the goal of therapy isn't that you go to therapy for the next 10 years in your life, right? And you're just and this person was a counselor, and they said the goal is to write something in your life so you can get after it. And they were saying, the best way to pull yourself out of depression and discouragement is get after it and get out there and help others and be a resource to others and serve and find is so not at all to dismiss therapy, but therapy is it's rampant on a culture and then, you know, the medical model just keeps you coming back for more when it's got to be a balance. Yes, I want to be reflective. Yes, I want to confess before others. Yes, I want to, you know, work through father wounds and Mother wounds, or maybe a painful divorce or or I've lost a child, of course, and we need to. The Bible says, confess your sins to others. You know one another, but you're not meant to stay in that state, and a part of the therapy process and a part of your recovery, getting beyond that depression, that discouragement, is serving and giving and loving and essentially applying this peace prayer. So that's in terms of what you're saying, yes, in the entitlement on the one side, that everybody's here to serve me versus I should serve others, or perhaps caught in cycles of depression, despair, you don't feel like you have anything to give, that self talk, that self doubt, the way to overcome that is go, give, go, serve, go love. Because in the process of doing that in an actionable and meaningful way, we are actually and this is where the prayer ends, right? It's in the giving that we receive. It's in the pardoning it see, because, fundamentally, someone forever ago, I sat in a seminar with my wife and some others, and this man taught something I've never forgot. He said, fundamentally, all of us, just everything boils down to two needs. We all have a need for significance, and we all have a need for security. And significance means my life matters. You know that I make a difference, that I count, and that's why so many people, you know, they might be successful in life, and they get to the end of their life, but they look back and they had no significance, right? So significance is much deeper than just making money, being successful in the ways of the world. So but that significance is, my life counts as a father, as a mother to my children, as a grandfather, that I find some permanence, that you know, that I matter, and again, not to yourself, entitlement or ego. But no, my life counts for some. My life makes a difference. We all want that. We want to know it in what we do, if you will, and who we are. But the other one is security. And security, if you think about significance, is what I do. Significance security is more from who I am and whose I am. It's kind of the love, if you will, right that I security again, not I've got financial security. It has to do with I have a place, I have a family. I have people that know me, that love me, that no matter what, they're there for me. And I have this relational security. And we all have that need as well. Well, both of those needs, as you're alluding to in the middle section of this prayer, and even going down to the end, when we give of ourselves, just like Christ, when we gave himself and and we meet empathetic needs, and we don't just think about our own interests with the interests of others, etc. What you find is significance and security. Those things are met because your life is making it having impact, meaningfully, making an impact, etc. And you find relational security because people respond to that. They Thank you, they they want to do something in return for you, which, of course, is not why you do it, but But you and then, of course, in your own family. So all to say, yes, it's turning the power and the pleasure of God in the terms of peacemaking outward to bless others, and in the process, you find that significance and security that you're

Joshua Johnson: 45:45

looking for. I mean, we see this process and this prayer help us out in the in the micro level of our own individual lives, of being instruments of God's peace in the world. And then, as we give, we could receive. Can it happen at the macro level where we see see wars, we see all sorts of horrible things where one people group decides to really dehumanize the other people group. They subjugate them. When that people group gets in power, then they do the same thing to another people group, and we It just is like a cycle of violence that continues over and over, and we see that play out here at micro levels, but we also see it play out in countries. Can this work in the major crises in our world where we don't perpetuate these cycles of violence, but these cycles of violence. Can be stopped, and we could see peacemaking in real life,

Mark DeYmaz: 46:45

yeah, well, aspirationally. And in fact, you want to talk about the butterfly effect, right? So if I go out and under the anointing of Christ, and I help make peace for someone, or, you know, remove peace disturbing factors in their lives, maybe they'll do it to someone else, and the butterfly effect, and it changes the world, right? And we would all love to see that happen. And can that happen? Yes, and things like that do happen. And entire countries like Rwanda go through a genocide, and then they find, you know, the power, if you will, within themselves, within their country, and frankly, Christ centered country, Paul Kagame and stuff. They name the name of Christ. I don't know them personally. I got friends who know them personally, but all to say they were able to find healing and hope as a country and come together, probably a rare story. So we have this aspirational hope. Yes, we can make a difference, and we should, and it will spread to others, but that too is kind of like the sitcom life, because sin is in the world and it doesn't matter. You know that power impalas is always going to be no matter what you do, like, even in China, I was telling you about this series I watched Hudson Taylor. Others, they go to China, they establish schools. Christianity is really rocking, if you will, in remote places. And then there's like a regime change. I don't remember all the parts of it. But you know, all the Christians are kicked out of the country. The churches are shut down. So we have this, this romantic notion, this aspirational hope that things will get better, right? It like perpetually better, like we will evolve as a, as a humanity, into this peaceful world. You know, I don't know, I don't know, I'm 64 but I'm pretty sure it's not going to happen. The only person who can bring peace is not me or you. It's going to be Christ when He returns. Now, now, having said that, I could, I could say, well, just throw up my hands. Well, what good can I be? And that's the old illustration of the starfish on the sea. I'm sure everybody's heard that's a very familiar, you know, the guy walking down. You can't, you can't make an impact on all these starfish, but you can help this one, right? And so I don't think the results of peacemaking at a macro level are our responsibility. I'm not a politician, you know? I suppose if I was the president of the United States, I might be able to bring some healing and hope and peace, and in some ways that maybe Democrat and Republican Presidents can't do it, you know, or haven't done it to date, and or some have tried. But there's a system, there's a there's an intrinsic evil that's out there called sin, and it affects people. Right? We hear every person is made in the image of God, and that is true, but not everybody embodies the image. Not everybody wants to walk in the image, and so we have that. It's back to our attention. We have that in play. So I don't think, I don't think we should not pursue peacemaking at an individual micro level, because somehow we can't. We just know there's no way at a macro level, this is going to make a difference. It's always going to be an ebb and flow, you know, throughout history, until Christ returns. But again, I think how you process that as an individual and as a Christ follower is, what is your calling? What does God put before you? Right? And even as a pastor, yes, I have some impact on other pastors and churches I know around the country, etc, but you know, this is really the church that I have impact in. This is the place that God called me to, and these people in this community, in this context. So I know I can have a peace, peaceful. Yeah, I can make an impact as a peacemaker, as a pastor, I know I can directly do that, but I can't worry about all these other churches, and maybe something's online about a church or even our country. I'm not a politician. I'm not an educator in a formal sense, like a university professor, right? I'm I'm not a banker, I'm not an economist, although, you know, I I wax eloquent on the church side of things. So what, who am I, and what is my calling? And I think you want to stay in your lane on that. I It's true, not only in the Christian world, but in other things. Think about the Hollywood you got all these actors and actresses, and they're people that you know, and then they want to weigh in, and they want to talk about, you know, politics, as if they know what's going on, like you don't know anything more than I do, and what you read or hear like you're not sitting in a you know, and currently we have a Republican administration the Oval Office. You're not in the Oval Office. You weren't there when Biden was there. You're not there where Trump is. You don't know what they're privy to. You know what the conversations are. All you know is what you hear on algorithms and feeds and maybe in media. But but because I found some success as an actor, it qualifies me to speak on matters that I've never studied, I'm not privy to, and that, too, contributes to all this angst and anxiousness and and so you know, again, there is a time to speak out. And maybe you don't know everything, but you certainly know this is. Honestly, go speak out. But at the end of the day, I think if you will stay knowing who you are, what your gifting is, what your specific calling, your unique value proposition that you bring the world and staying in that lane. Martin Luther King, I read was, you know, he made traction, obviously civil rights leader, and really brought a change about in this country. But I read about how, as he got traction, and he began to be elevated in his voice, and people were responding and listening. And of course, many got on on board, and many were against. But he had traction. He had prophetic voice, if you will. And he said that when you get prophetic voice, in other words, when you get traction in one lane, other people with their own agendas, with their own thoughts, and they try to attach their agenda to your agenda, because you're getting traction, you're getting momentum, and it can puff you up right, like somebody says, Hey, you're getting so much traction here. But this is really important too. And all of a sudden, well, it is. So then you start speaking on this, and you try to take on all these causes that really wasn't your cause, and it water number one, it waters down your cause. Number two, you're you're gonna get, like, you know, it's not gonna work people are because you don't know what other people know in that sphere. So Martin Luther King, basically, he didn't say it like this, but he's like, stay in your lane like you know, I'm not gonna Hey, if you want to go champion this, or you want to go champ, God bless you, go to it. You want to write a book on it. You want to stand up and speak out about it. God bless you. Do it. That's not why I'm on the earth. My mission is this. I am called to this. It's who I am, what I do. So I have found that to be very good advice from Dr Martin Luther King, and that's what I've tried to do. Literally, I had a politician running for Congress here just we have a leadership luncheon once a month for public and civic leaders. And literally, he's running for to replace one of our congressional US congress people, and he's out here, and he was here today, and we're friends. He was we served on a board together, but he basically said, Hey, man, you know, can I come over the church and get some prayer for this election? And I said to him, I said, Of course, yeah. Like I said, Now, let me tell you how we do this in our church. I said, you'll come here. Come here on a Sunday morning, because we have all this demographic diversity, and the politicians like to get in front of it, and we're a capital city. So I say you come over to our church and and one of us, one of the teaching pastors, will say, Hey, good morning, so and so is here today. We're so glad to have you. He's running for, you know, this particular office, in this case, us, Congress. He's running. And then you look him in the eye, in front of everybody go, now, you know, we don't endorse you, right? And everybody laughs for a second, you know? But then you say, but don't worry. We don't endorse anybody, but we pray for everyone. And so then we pray over those politicians, and we pray God's will for them, for our city, for our state, God's will be done. We don't pray that they'd win. We don't pray that they'd lose. We just pray that God's will will be done in their lives, and so, etc. And then we allow them to be in the lobby and just talk to people like, you know, so we so I told him about that. He laughed. He goes, I love that. I'm going to come over and do it. And I would do that. I mean, if Donald Trump showed up, or Joe Biden, or Kamala Harris or whoever, we would play the same game, we would not position as a church to the right or the left, we live in the tension Christ is for all people, not just on. And we posture ourselves that way, as a healthy multi ethnic church. That is our unique calling. I'm not saying every church has to be like that. That's you got to figure that out. If you're a pastor or you attend a church, but our church, that is our unique value proposition, that is our posture, and we stay in our lane that way, and it's been, you know, it's given us a lot of influence and impact because we're trusted. We're like we have literally been called the living room of the city, our location, the people that go here. So it for us, it works. And we're able to stay in that lane of peacemaking collectively, by playing politics that way, if you will. And again, the main point is, who are you? What you're calling? What are you gifted out? What do you found people affirming you and find that voice and stay in that lane and then chase the fruit of long obedience in the

Joshua Johnson: 55:51

same direction. Make me an instrument of your piece. Your new book is going to help a lot of people to be able to do that and walk it out within their own calling, the vocation of what God has called them into to actually be an instrument of peace, his peace in the world, which we so desperately need. It's a fantastic book. It'll be available anywhere books are sold. People could go and get that Mark is there anywhere you'd like to point people to to connect with you, what you're doing, or anywhere else?

Mark DeYmaz: 56:19

Yeah, if you're looking to connect with me. I'm super easy to find making a point with ever but you know, Joshua, I never had my own website because I'm all like, I'm not going to like Mark themos.com but now press gave me a good reason. No, no, you need because you got so much stuff going on, you need to aggregate it all in one place. So I did that based on their advice. And I thought, Oh, that makes sense, right? So. I did that. But anyway, yeah, Mark demos, D, E, y, M, a, z, Mark demos.com, is where I'm at. How you can reach me, find out other resources and things I'm into, if you will, and certainly appreciate being on your program today.

Joshua Johnson: 56:53

Josh, yeah, well, thank you, Mark, it was fantastic conversation. I just pray that people are instruments of God's peace in the world, they take what was said today and actually start to embody it, embody the ways of Christ, live, not just identifying with him, but live under and embodying His anointing, and figuring out what does it look like to live like Him in the world. So it was fantastic. Thank you so much.

Unknown: 57:17

You bet. Thanks for having me. You