Shifting Culture
On Shifting Culture we have conversations at the intersection of faith, culture, justice, and the way of Jesus. Hosted by Joshua Johnson, this podcast features long-form conversations with authors, theologians, artists, and cultural thinkers to trace how embodied love, courage, and creative faithfulness offer a culture of real healing and hope.
Shifting Culture
Ep. 415 Jason VanRuler Returns - Discovering Your Communication Type: The Path to Deeper Connections and Stronger Relationships
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In this episode, I talk with Jason VanRuler about why we keep missing each other in conversation and what’s actually going on beneath the surface. We explore the five communication types - peacemaker, advocate, thinker, harbor, and spark - and how our upbringing, attachment styles, and even shame shape the way we speak and listen. Jason offers a practical way forward: growing in self-awareness, understanding the person in front of you, and shifting from trying to win or convince to actually connecting.
Jason VanRuler, MA, CSAT, is a psychotherapist, author, and nationally recognized speaker specializing in communication, attachment, and relationships. He’s the author of Discovering Your Communication Type and Get Past Your Past and founder of a thriving private practice. Known for blending insight, story, and strategy, Jason leads workshops, retreats, and intensives that explore the patterns shaping how we connect, lead, and thrive. His work creates space for clarity, growth, and lasting change. He lives with his wife and three children and enjoys travel, cycling, and fly fishing.
Jason's Book:
Discovering Your Communication Type
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A thoughtful, deep dive into one of the most talked-about movements in American history.
Lot of what I learned about why people communicate the way they do is it's a reaction how they grew up. So for instance, if I grew up in a place with a lot of chaos and crisis, I might be a peacemaker. Why would that be? Well, because I somebody had to learn how to make peace in a place that there wasn't any. Or why am I an advocate? Well, people treated me unfairly, or I witnessed people be unfair, and I know what it's like to not speak up, so I'm going to speak up.
Joshua Johnson:Hello and welcome to the shift in culture podcast. Once we have conversations about the culture we create and the impact we can make, we long to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host. Joshua Johnson, you know, we think communication is about saying the right thing. If we just get the words right, people will understand us, but most of the time, that's not what happens. We talk past each other. We miss each other, we leave conversations feeling unheard and misunderstood. So Jason Van ruler returns to the podcast today so we can get underneath all of that. We talk about why communication breaks down, and why it's not just about words, but about how we're wired. Jason lays out five communication types, peacemaker, advocate, thinker, harbor and spark, and shows how each of us is trying to get to the same place, but taking very different paths. We also get into what's underneath all of it, how our upbringing, our attachment styles and even shame, shape the way we show up in conversations, and then we move into what actually helps, how to listen differently, how to understand the person in front of you, and how to shift from trying to win or convince to actually connecting. So join us for this practical conversation that will help you see yourself more clearly, help you communicate in a way that leads to deeper, healthier relationships. Here's my conversation with Jason Van ruler, Jason, welcome back to shifting culture. So excited to have you back
Jason VanRuler:on Yes. Thank you so much. I am thrilled to be here again. Really looking forward to today. Well, I am too,
Joshua Johnson:because we need to learn how to communicate. We're gonna be talking about discovering your communication type, your new book, and the pathway that you have for us, the different communication types we talk about, peacemaker, advocate, thinker, harbor and spark. And we'll get into all of what that looks like. I think when I look at people trying to talk to each other is one side says, I have the information that I want to give to the other person, and I'm saying it, and the other person says, I have all the information I want to give to the other person I'm saying it. But a lot of times they miss each other. We miss each other in communication. Why do you think it is like that, if it's not just about the right information, what is happening underneath the surface that we're not actually hearing each other?
Jason VanRuler:Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I think for a lot of people, the struggle is, we judge ourselves in what we say, by our intentions, and other people judge us by our words. So we say, well, here's what I'm meaning when I'm saying this. I'm communicating this to you, and this is the outcome I want you to get to, because this is what it means to me. The struggle is, if somebody has a different communication type, they don't hear that, they don't hear your intention, they hear your words. And so it's really hard to hear someone's words and go, Oh, I bet they had different intentions. Even though that sounded this way. I bet they really meant that. And so I think what happens is that if we don't have the awareness of maybe how we communicate, and others don't know how they communicate, we just sort of butt heads and have a lot of friction instead of really getting to where we want to go.
Joshua Johnson:So take me into then, what communication actually is then, and if it's not just saying the right words, yeah.
Jason VanRuler:I mean, I think so much culture lately is sort of like, we'll just, you know, say this right thing, and it will land and and then what we do is we, we try to say just the right thing, but it doesn't land because it's not genuine and authentic. And so some of where this book came from is that I would work at these couples retreats. So I'd host a Couples Retreat, and we'd talk about, now we're going to teach you empathy. Okay, so maybe, maybe you're not empathetic, but we're going to teach you, and you just have to read this handy dandy script, and then you will be empathetic. And I would look at the couples, and some would read the script and it would be like, oh, man, that worked perfectly. And others would read the script and it wouldn't work at all. And I just kind of found myself going, what is going on there? And that really led me to this place of we all communicate differently, meaning. We all have different intentions for communication. Our Why is different, and if we don't speak to somebody else's why they're probably going to miss it. How did you come
Joshua Johnson:up with these communication types that I briefly went over quickly. How'd you come up with them? And why do you think that it's important for us to know our type and other people's types,
Jason VanRuler:yeah, I mean, so they came up through a lot of clinical experience, but also in speaking in social media. So as I kind of grew somewhat of a following on social media and got to speak to big audiences, I would just notice what different things landed and so for instance, if I was at a therapist conference talking about my feelings, that that went over pretty well. But if I took that same keynote and I went to an accounting conference, not as not as good, not as good, okay, and so, and so, I kind of started to go like, what is the deal here? What is happening and and then, how do we help people connect in a way that really matters and resonates with the other person. And so that led me to, hey, what are the predictable types? You know, The Five Love Languages? I love that book. It's fantastic book. But I always thought, Man, there should be something similar for communication. And that was kind of the idea behind this.
Joshua Johnson:What are these types that you lay out for us?
Jason VanRuler:Yeah, yeah. So there's five types, and it's always important, I think, just to note, like, no one is better than the others. You know, sometimes we do a thing where we're like, I'm waiting for the one you want and not the one you don't. They're all good in their own way. They're just different, and we can be so there's an assessment. We can be skilled in each of them to some extent, but we always have a primary we go back to. And so the primary we go back to is often in times of pressure or conflict, and it's because we go back to our primary. So the five types are the peacemaker and the peacemaker, their why for communication is to make peace. So even if there isn't peace, they want to communicate so that they can soften, kind of work out those rough patches. Kind of get everybody seemingly getting along, and I say seemingly, because some of their struggle is they want peace even if there isn't. And so they're like, I just want it to sound like peace. Now maybe people aren't happy or they're struggling. So that's the peacemaker. The A is the advocate, and the advocate wants things to be right and just and fair. So they're a great person to have as a friend, because they will say the thing no one else is saying. You know, everyone's thinking like, Man, that was really unfair. The advocate's going to tell you that that's unfair, and so that's great, but kind of their struggle, or their opportunity, is learning when to say the thing that they feel needs to be said. The T is the thinker. And you know, if you think in terms of, like, kind of your classic feelings, thinker type person, the thinker is all about what makes sense to me, what's analytical, what's factual, what's the research say? And they're typically an internal processor. The harbor is the feeler. And so, you know, shocker, I'm a harbor really interested in what I feel, what you feel, and making space, even if we don't agree. And then the S is the spark. And the spark is that person that walks in the room, they kind of light up the whole place. They get everybody kind of excited and moving in a direction. But their opportunity for growth is talking about difficult things and having more depth. I think one of the
Joshua Johnson:things that is helpful, I think, in your book, is you talk about, you know, climbing a summit and mountain, and these are different pathways to get to the summit, and the summit is the place where we could actually, then actually have some connection that we're connecting here. Why do you think that people believe and think that there is one pathway in communication and there isn't multiple I think people struggle because they think that, you know, they're not on the same path as me. Like, why aren't they here? Like, this is the path. It is the path. What do people struggle in the midst of it thinking that there's only, like, one path of communication?
Jason VanRuler:Well, I think acknowledging there's other paths means we have to do something different and potentially uncomfortable and learn a new skill. And so there's kind of this idea of, wouldn't it be great if everyone was like me? You know, if I just showed up and everybody liked what I liked, and they wanted what I want, they said what I say, wouldn't that be great? And here's the funny thing is, with algorithms and social media and things like that, we almost do get a version of that. You know, we can kind of find ourselves in an echo chamber where it is all the way we talk, the way we think, what we say, but we end up missing out on some of the best parts of relationships, which are the parts where we honor the different path. And I think we've lost that in some ways, because. We've elected instead just to do the easiest next thing, instead of doing the thing that actually brings us deeper relationship.
Joshua Johnson:So how do people start to learn the other person's path and communicate? What are the steps that you have found as a therapist, as you're working with couples on two different paths? What are some, some first steps for people to go? Okay, I see that, and I can start to learn a little bit of communication. What are you trying to help people with in those situations?
Jason VanRuler:Yeah, I mean, I think the first couple things are they relate to communication, but they aren't just even communication skills. It's really about self awareness and willingness. And so can I have some self awareness about how I show up? You know, if we tend to believe our way is the best way, we might not notice how it lands with other people. And so the first step is, can I know myself better so that I'm likely to understand how other people are receiving me? And then can I listen to other perspectives? So, you know, I'll give you, for instance, I think it's God's sense of humor that, of course, a harbor who is all about the feelings would marry a thinker, you know, because why not? And and so, you know, my lovely wife is a thinker through and through. And when we have conflict, you know, if I don't understand that we've got a lot of friction, because when we talk about a difficult subject, I'm going to lead with how I feel, and I'm going to try to get her to talk about how she feels, and she's going to try to talk about the analytical side, what's actual, factual and true. And so knowing who I am and knowing who she is, I just make some space for her to have the conversation she needs, and she does the same
Joshua Johnson:for me. Sometimes that would sound to people like, I'll let somebody like have space to talk, and then I have space to talk, and we get our way of talking out of the way. How then do you like, truly communicate where you hear each other, if it's really difficult to understand the other path,
Jason VanRuler:yeah, let them teach you why it matters. So one of the things is we often are with someone or on a team, where there are opposites or wildly different people, and so we've got this profound opportunity to grow in these other categories. And so instead of just listening to maybe win the argument, or, you know, get your point across, I what I try to tell people is let them teach you how it is for them. Because if you actually pay attention to that and become a student of them, you are so much better for it, and every relationship you have will benefit. And so instead of kind of that listening for me, it's listening for we, you know, how does this make us better?
Joshua Johnson:How do we not make it transactional in our relationships? Then communication is transaction. How do we make it as connection when we actually hear each other?
Jason VanRuler:Yeah, I think make that the agenda. So I think when we enter a conversation, if the agenda is connection, it looks different. I think if the agenda is get my point across or win or convince, I think that is a totally different conversation.
Joshua Johnson:But what if I'm right and they're wrong?
Jason VanRuler:What if? Yeah, what if that happens? People can be right, people can be wrong. I mean, I think when you get there, a lot of times we don't disagree on right and wrong. We disagree on the thought process behind how you got there. So everybody wants to get to the summit. Nobody really disagrees with that. You know, nobody's really saying, like, oh, the summit's not that great. I don't want to get to the mountaintop. I just want to stay down here. Nobody's saying that. However, what we disagree in is how we get there. And so if we can eliminate that disagreement, or better understand why people choose their path, we have different relationships, it still might not be ours, right? So while I can honor and respect my wife's type of thinking and communication. It's not mine. Now has it made me a better person, 100% but it's not mine. So I think our job is just to say, like we still have our preferred way, but maturity and emotional maturity is making space for the other ideas and ways to do it.
Joshua Johnson:How do you think that it works when say, we have have a team trying to communicate. So there's a team trying to communicate, we're moving towards something. You have somebody facilitating or leading or guiding the team in a conversation, and they have one way of communicating, and they really love that way of communicating. How do people open up space for others to communicate well, and their communication types to be heard in a team setting where they're trying to make. Make sometimes quick decisions.
Jason VanRuler:Yeah, I think just that self awareness piece of the leader needs to understand where they're coming from and how that's landing with their team. And, you know, it's inevitable. In a lot of teams, there's there's several people who often are similar communication types, and then there's one or two who aren't. And so that kind of awareness of that doesn't make them bad people, but they're going to slice it differently. And can we give some space to that person? If we have it now, the leader is still the leader. So they might not, they might not always have the time or the space to do that, but that communication type is often something that is a value add if we let it be, but we have to acknowledge the value.
Joshua Johnson:So even in, in those situations I'm thinking about in, in all the situations we've been talking about so far in communication types, I I still feel like most people stick with the status quo. Even if they give space for others, they stick with what they what they know. And I think this is, this is what happens in most like, if you look at most personality type profile things, it's like, it's, it's really about who I am, and we're gonna, like, know other people, but it's really just about me. Anyways, the So, how do we move from status quo, get out of it, into a place of like true, moving towards somebody else. To understand, what does that look like to get out of status quo?
Jason VanRuler:Yeah. I mean, I think you have to pick the relationships that count, and it's not going to be everyone you know. So there's going to be a lot of places where we're going to show up as ourselves, and that's going to be the whole amount of work we do, right? We're just like, I know I am, here I am, and the book is great for that. I think the other side of it is, what about these relationships that either are family or they're partners, or they're people who are fixtures in my life, that probably aren't going anywhere, that I could level up that relationship? And so what I would say is, yeah, it would be exhausting to try to meet everybody there, but, but you could be choosy and probably pick two or three people in your life where it would undoubtedly make things better. And so what the book is really divided into is half the book is about the types, and the second half of the book is about, how do you use what you know now to have better relationships. And so I think when we practice that on relationships that count, that's where all the good stuff
Joshua Johnson:is helpful, we're gonna we're gonna practice that, and we're gonna practice on where it counts. And hopefully that'll get us better in communicating with everybody else, to have some more self awareness and then awareness of others. So to get that awareness of others, some people, I think, in the in Harbor, like you, you could pick up on emotional cues, how people are feeling, what is behind some of their thoughts, and what is their intention and their why? Sometimes I think, better than other communication types. It seems like, how can people grow in some of that to pick up on what other people are bringing to then be able to communicate better and know what is actually the intention behind what people are saying? Yeah, that's
Jason VanRuler:that's a great question. And to your point, probably it is a little different for me, you know, being in my role and things like that. What my hope was was to make it easy enough and practical enough that you could, you could probably pick up notes of it as you're talking to somebody, and it would become a little more obvious, I think, just, and this is a part of the book. It was really funny that I wrote and I consulted with some friends, and they're like, do you have to have that part in there? And I was like, what? Was like, What part are you talking about? They're like, the one where you tell people to practice talking to people. And I like, yeah, we kind of have to have that part in the book. And they're like, Yeah, but, but who does that? Like, who wants to do that? I like, Yeah, but that's the thing. Is you just don't get better, you know, thinking about it, you actually have to practice. So I think the more you engage with people, the more it starts to become pretty obvious. And you can always ask, and you can always say to somebody like, Hey, here's what I'm hearing. Is the why behind your communication, is that accurate
Joshua Johnson:in general? Like, what communication types are really difficult for each other?
Jason VanRuler:Yeah. I mean, here's the thing, I think so much of the struggle with the communication type is just time and place. It's just knowing time and place. So the story I always give is like, if you've ever had any kind of surgery whatsoever, and you're in the pre op, and the surgeon comes in and you go, Hey, how you doing? You don't actually care how they're doing, right? You don't want to hear them say, Well, I'm fighting with my wife, and, you know, we're really on the rocks, and I'm feeling like, maybe I can't pull this surgery off today. I'm really full of doubt. You don't want to hear that, right? That is you. All you want to hear is like, it's great. Things are wonderful. It's going to be fine. So I think where this can come out sideways is if we don't know. Time and place. And I'll say even therapists, in myself included, can be really annoying sometimes because, because we're asking about how people feel when it doesn't matter, right? So we're kind of saying, hey, let's bring it to this deeper place. And people are like, I don't know about that. You know, it's, I know there's been times I like to play soccer and playing soccer with people, and I'm like, How do you feel about that? And you know, they're like, Man, I'm just trying to play soccer, like, I not really looking to get into it. So I think when we understand time and place super important. I think, you know, if we get into like, a peacemaker and an advocate, those are kind of tough combos sometimes, because the advocate is like, hey, if it's right, it's right. It doesn't matter if there's peace the thinker and the harbor that can be kind of tough, because it's like, hey, if what I think is right and there's logical thoughts behind that, doesn't matter how you feel. And so I think we can get in these kind of opposite places, where it requires more patience
Joshua Johnson:and awareness you also touch on and help us figure out how attachment styles and our different attachment styles affect our communication style. So it's not just our five paths or different paths that we have. It is also our attachment styles. Can you just touch on, what are the different attachment styles and how they affect communication?
Jason VanRuler:Yeah, absolutely. So there's there were initially three, there's four, though now, but the first one would be secure attachment. And what attachment is really about is your relationship, usually with your parents or primary caregivers. And so the secure attachment meant I trust like my parents, I know they're going to keep me safe. They love me. I'm going to be well fed, everything's going to be fine. So that's about 50% of the world. Anxious attachment is I really want relationship, but I'm afraid it's going to end, and so I'm anxious about what's happening. Are we okay? You know? So those are kind of typical questions that an anxiously attached person would ask is they're basically always doubting the relationship and its length and longevity. So that's about 20% avoidant are the people who they want relationship deeply, but they've just learned that they get hurt, and so they actually, while the anxious person is kind of chasing the avoidant runs away. You know, they kind of go, Hey, if I can get a long ways from this, I'll just be safer. So I don't want to get too close. And it's funny, because I always think of the avoidant people as like, Do you ever go through a drive stream you have to buy something, and they hand that stick with the credit card machine to you? I hate that, by the way. But whenever they do that, they're like, I don't want to get too close to you. You know, this is this is, there's a there's five feet between me and you. That's about a good distance. And so that's kind of the avoidant person, right? Is they're like, there's going to be a transaction here. Let's get some space. They're about 20% and then the last one is disorganized. And disorganized is really a combination of anxious and avoidant, and so that's kind of the push pull. You know, I want relationship. I'm chasing it now. I'm running from it. And why all of this matters is because we approach communication with beliefs about how relationships work. And so our attachment style informs our belief about relationships. And so a lot of what I learned about why people communicate the way they do is it's a reaction how they grew up. So for instance, if I grew up in a place with a lot of chaos and crisis, I might be a peacemaker. Why would that be? Well, because I somebody had to learn how to make peace in a place that there wasn't any or why am I an advocate? Well, people treated me unfairly, or I witnessed people be unfair, and I know what it's like to not speak up, so I'm going to speak up. And so we kind of we learn these and they're really adaptive, quite often, more than something we choose.
Joshua Johnson:So do you think that our communication type primarily comes out of our dysfunctions of life, and is it something that we can improve on as we get healing from different things that have happened in our life, as we grow get healing and become a more well adjusted, peaceful presence in the world.
Jason VanRuler:Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think I would say dysfunction, maybe would be the word, and even in some maybe healthier families, it's it's just really what was missing. So a lot of times, this is just an answer to what was needed or what was missing. And the growth and the healing for us is just learning how to have different tools and different approaches. You know, it's kind of that old cliche, you know, if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. It's, it's that learning process of sort of saying, Hey, that was then, this is now. So, so maybe at home, you really needed peace, and so you learned how to do that, and you're masterful at it. But now. Now you're in a marriage where it's safe, it's secure, you don't have to do that, but now you're just not having hard conversations. And so how do we develop some of those skills we might not have gotten at home. That's my
Joshua Johnson:relationship at home with my wife. We've learned how to have hard conversations, but it is, I mean, my wife has come from that exact situation. It was very difficult. It was chaotic at home. Her dad was bipolar, and so she needed to be peace the peacemaker and have calm presence in the house. So harder conversations were a little bit more difficult. We've she's grown. We've learned we could have hard conversations. It's been, been great, but it was a, it was a struggle because of what happened before. How for somebody like that? So the peacemaker, right? How does the peacemaker grow into the confidence to have hard conversations, knowing that the room itself is not going to blow up, and it's going to be safe to have those conversations, and it will be good and healthy to have those conversations. How, how does the peacemaker grow into that?
Jason VanRuler:Yeah, we have to redefine peace, you know. So what's interesting is, a lot of times, if someone is conflict avoidant, or do they avoid difficult conversations is because they make up that peace is about agreement, right? And so if we agree and we feel the same, now we have peace. And I think maybe a different definition is we have relationship either way, I'm not going anywhere. You're safe. And peace is we're able to talk through the difficult thing. It's not the avoidance of and so I think when we can redefine what peace really means, it's a wonderful skill.
Joshua Johnson:What does redefinition do for somebody's thought process and then behavior in relationships? When you help people redefine,
Jason VanRuler:it changes things so dramatically. I mean, it's really interesting, but it's kind of these catalytic like breakthrough moments, because so much of what we do is subconscious, and so much of what we're doing is just kind of a program running in the background. And so when we actually take time to say, hey, what am I operating by? And do I want that or not? And we change it, people start to see it show up all over the place, and when they change the rules, it's both empowering and it allows them to show up differently. It just takes some intention and awareness.
Joshua Johnson:Can you give me a story of somebody in a communication like rut and you help them redefine what was the intention or something behind it that got them to a better place? Yeah. I mean, a
Jason VanRuler:lot of times where I'll see this happen and someone will be struggling or exhausted, is like with an advocate, you know, if you're the person to fight for what's right, and just with everybody all the time, that that's tiring, because there's a lot of injustice and and so what we'll try to redefine is, you know, so the advocate kind of looks at and they say, Well, you know, the why for me is that I can't allow injustice. I can't allow things to be unfair or wrong. And so what we try to get them to do is redefine, like, what, what are actually the parameters for when we need to say something, because every time probably is not sustainable. So what is a better definition of when to do that? And so when we start to say, well, you know, here's the thing, Jason, I think I'm going to say something. If I know not saying something would bother me the next day, even some things like that, people like, Man, my life changed overnight. I suddenly I'm not fighting with so many people. It's not so complicated. And when I do say something, it matters. And so I'll see things like that, where sometimes, and with the spark too, sometimes a spark will avoid a challenge that they have in their life for a really long time, and it'll even be an easy challenge. And they'll just say, like, boy, when I gave myself permission to redefine that as like I could look at that actually took care of the thing I really needed to.
Joshua Johnson:When I communicate poorly, it's because I feel shame in some place in my life. And when I feel shame, I try to hide, which, you know, that's Adam and Eve, like they feel shame. They're naked in the garden. That's, you know, from the very beginning. That's what it looks like, right? We hide. So if I try to hide, I am a really poor communicator, because I just kind of want to avoid the situation and let it work out before you know anything. How do How does shame play a part in our communication, and what does it look like then to help alleviate some of that shame? Yeah. I mean, I
Jason VanRuler:think shame stops us before we even get started, because what shame kind of tells us is I am bad, and so if I am bad, it's. Easy to project the future because of that, right? So if I'm bad, it's only likely that this is going to end badly. You know, if I'm no good, I do this podcast with you, I'm probably going to mess it up. You know, that's that's more likely than not. And so I think what shame does is it keeps us small, because that's how the shame thrives. So it's kind of this thing where, like, the only way that works is if it's in the dark, the minute, you kind of bring it into the light, and you even do what you just did, which is, just tell the truth about it. It starts to lose its power. But I think we have to be willing to say what you just said
Joshua Johnson:when it matters for somebody that's dealing with shame and communication, like saying it when it matters is really difficult. If I was in your therapist's office and we were having a conversation, it was just me and you, and it's not like the 1000s of people that are listening right now, I would be able to say something, you know, and we could work on, you know, the shame that I feel and because it feels, it feels safer, right? It's just me and you, but sometimes it feels dangerous to be able to call and say it out even when it matters. How do you help people open up in ways, even when it feels dangerous? It may not be dangerous, it may be the right thing to say, and people are safe, but how do you help people open up into the dangerous communication areas of their life?
Jason VanRuler:Yeah, that's a really good question, and and you're right. I mean, I think you and I talking would would be very different than you know me on stage or something like that. And so the stakes feel different because they are but what I often tell people is, start when the stakes are low and start with the small thing that's true. And so sometimes, for people, that's just even, like, just saying the one true thing, even when it doesn't matter at all, but you're like, hey, this is kind of my opinion that doesn't make sense to me. Like, as a thinker, might say that, hey, that doesn't make sense to me, or I'm feeling kind of off, but, but I think we have to start small and work our way up to the big stuff, because our life shouldn't be full of just big stuff. If it is, it means we haven't spoken enough for a long time and and so what we want to do is just in those day to day interactions, even if somebody says like, Hey, how are you doing? You don't have to tell them your whole life story. But boy, you could be a little more honest, right? And some days, it's not my best day ever, and if that person responds well to that and they seem safe, you try the next level of depth. But unfortunately, what we often do is we wait so long to do that that we have to say something, and we're like, let me give you all of it, right? And so it's kind of, I'm going to tell you 25 minutes without taking a breath, and then I'm going to see what you do. And more often than not, people, even who could help you, are like, oh, man, that's just a lot. I'm not sure. And so we want to start the other way, small and work up.
Joshua Johnson:Where do you think that conflict originates from? Why do you think that there's so much conflict in our communication?
Jason VanRuler:Yeah, I mean, I think for a lot of people, it's about what is my ability to regulate my emotions? So if I need you to regulate my emotions, if I need you to make me Okay, we have to agree. So that's really challenging, right? So we don't have a lot of ability to regulate our own emotions. Regulate our own emotions, that's really tough. I think also, if I come into a conversation and I already don't feel understood or heard in other places in my life, there is a point where we go, you're going to listen. Nobody else is listening. I'm making you listen. And so we kind of shift into this unwillingness, and hey, I'm going to make you hear this, even if you don't want to. And so I think a lot of day to day conversations where it results in conflict are often a lot more about our internal state and how we're feeling than it is actually about the other person. The other person is just witnessing what we're going through. You know,
Joshua Johnson:once I started to realize some of my interstate I know as I was leading, and I would, I would say something stupid to a person on staff, I would quickly realize, oh, that's more about that's about me and what I went through. And what isn't that the worst. It is the worst, and it wasn't about you.
Jason VanRuler:Why do I have to be afflicted with this awareness exactly terrible.
Joshua Johnson:It is terrible. It's horrible, which that's great. How do we operate in that before things like come to a head and we initiate conflict? How do people become more aware of what their emotions are going on on the inside that they don't have to, like, say you need to listen to this or you need to say this differently. This isn't right. How can we become more aware to stop that conflict, which, I think that type of conflict is kind of silly, and it doesn't need to happen.
Jason VanRuler:Yeah, it often doesn't. And I mean, those are my favorites, too, where you're in conflict and you forgot why, but you're sure you're angry, right? It's like, I'm angry. I'm winning. I don't remember what I'm trying to win, but I know I'm going to. So the thing that I would say is, when you come into it, what do you want? One of the questions that up ends a lot of conflict is when someone says something that you take to be rude or offensive or kind of conflict driven. If you just asked the person who just said that thing, what did you hope I'd say when you said that, it almost stops all conflict, because a lot of times people go, I'm not really sure. And then we kind of have that awareness of like, Oh, I think this is about me. Now when we go, oh, this is exactly why it's like, okay, great, then we need to have this conversation. But if you don't know, they don't know either. And so unfortunately, sometimes we use other people to try to help us be clear on what we think and feel instead of doing the work ourselves.
Joshua Johnson:So help us do some of this work so that we can be clear in our communication, instead of trying to get other people to do
Jason VanRuler:it for us. Yeah, I think just set intentions. I mean, if you if you know you're going to walk into something, whether it be a meeting or a conversation with the spouse or kiddo or whoever, what's the outcome I'm hoping for? What am I going for in this conversation? How will I know when I got there? If you can answer that you're ahead of more more people than you know, because a lot of times we go, I'm not really sure I'm going to use them to help me figure out what I want. And then we go, no, no, that's not it. That's not it, that's not it. And that's usually where conflict starts. And so just go in and be intentional. This is what I'm hoping to
Joshua Johnson:get out of it. Let's talk about this conversation. So here, in this, in our conversation today, Jason, we both have some expectations coming into it. We both want something out of this. I want a really good conversation. I want to go, go deeper than surface level. You want to get, you know information about your book out as well. That's part of it. And so we could have people understand what it is, and then, you know, people could go and buy your book. How do we get from, okay, this is our intention into a place of, I don't want to just do what I'm intending. I want to connect. So even in in something where we both have have intentions, expectations and things we want out of this, how do we move from just worrying about our thing into connecting in conversation?
Jason VanRuler:Yeah, that's great question, and you're right. How I break it down is, we have wants and we have needs. Okay, so what is a want for me? Let's be on the New York Times bestseller list. That's a want. Let's, let's sell. Let's everyone who listens, buy 500 books. That's a want. What is a need, though? So you might say, well, entering into this conversation, my intention is, that's my want, and that's fine. What do I actually need, though, for this to be valuable? I have to connect with you better. That's my need. So maybe I'll never get what I want out of this. I don't really know if I care. I care about what I need, and so what I need for this to be valuable and for me to show up like I stewarded the gifts well that I was given is just to get to know you better and to hopefully say something of value to somebody else. So I think if we can separate out our wants and needs, that's really helpful, too.
Joshua Johnson:How do people then do that, going into conversations and trying to communicate with others, because it's nice to say a want and need. But I'll give you an example for me. I often don't know what I need, and you're the
Jason VanRuler:only one. Everyone else has it figured out. You haven't I know? Okay, all right, well, then usual,
Joshua Johnson:but fine. I don't know what I need. I know what I want sometimes, but sometimes I don't even know what my desire is. Underneath my desire. I think that's what the need is, right? The desire under the desire. And so I I just can't get to it. Sometimes I'm just in my head, I'm thinking, I can't really understand what's underneath it. How do you get to that place of knowing what is needed in this time?
Jason VanRuler:Such a good question, such a good question. And I'm giving you a hard time, but this is one I hear all the time, and let me say too. I mean, on a deeper level, a lot of times, people don't know because they haven't been asked. Been asked. And so this is something I see where maybe people's childhood experience, they really that wasn't on anybody's radar, what they wanted or needed. Or sometimes I talk to mothers and they're like, Hey, I've got kids, and no one really cares. I care about the kids. And so a lot of people show up and they're like, I don't know. What I need. I maybe have some guesses about what I want, but I'm not really sure what I need, and so I like to just flip it and do the opposite. And so I go, Okay, if you don't know what you need, can you tell me what you definitely don't need? And people are usually pretty easy at that, right? They're like, well, I don't I don't need conflict. I don't need you to tell me this. They can give like, a laundry list, and I go, Okay, well, let's run with that. Because even that letting someone in on like, hey, I want to have this conversation with you. Here's what I want. I'm not clear on what I need, but I know that I don't want these four things, even that gets us closer.
Joshua Johnson:I think that's helpful. Coming at it a different way. We often, I don't know. I think people get stuck in loops so much that if you just take it and move it and see it from a different direction, it unlocks something for people, so that they can start to understand. So, yeah, I could see that. I think, yeah, yeah.
Jason VanRuler:It's just those little shifts, and we just look at it a little differently. And I think too, like, if you really struggle with this, you can always narrate your internal process. And it's kind of funny. You want to do it with somebody you trust, but you might say, here's what I'm thinking right now. I feel X. I have no idea what I want or need. I'm frustrated, but we have to talk, so I'm showing up to try to talk. That's what's going on. And it's funny, because people go, Well, why would they want to know that? But people connect with what's inside, and so they're like, Okay, well, you're lacking some clarity, but I know where you're at, so let's work with it. You know,
Joshua Johnson:in our communication and our conflict, what happens when people are coming at it from the same path, what may be dangerous about communicating with the people on the same path as you what's difficult about it?
Jason VanRuler:Yeah, you go really fast, or you go faster and and you're likely to miss all the other things. And so, you know, early on in my marriage, I used to go meet with some friends, and, you know, they're all harbors too. And so we have our harbor party, and, you know, gets a little weird, and talk about her feelings and and I would come home, and I would have all these brilliant ideas about how it changed the world, right? So be like, I feel so excited. And I would go to my wife, and I'd be like, I'm gonna do this and this and that. And she's a thinker, you know, and she's like, that won't work. I don't think that makes sense. That's illogical. And I like, oh, man, you just killed hours of dreaming. And so what I kind of had to learn is like, I love the hours of dreaming, and if we're not careful, it gets so narrow, we miss a more holistic picture of what we're actually trying to do.
Joshua Johnson:So think about two analytical people. So here, why having conversations, having a conflict with somebody else? Is there something in the midst of a conflict that people miss, that they because they're from the same path?
Jason VanRuler:Yeah, I mean, I think if they're if they're both in it, and they dig their heels in, we just, we escalate quickly, because we're both doing more of the same. And so, you know, if I'm, if I'm in that thinker perspective, and I'm talking about, you know, what's factual and actual and research and all this, and you do that, you know, it just, it just keeps growing, and then it gets to a place where we go, I think we've kind of lost the point here. Can we come back to it? And that's one thing I try to help people with, is so often in conflict. People try to have conflict about 10 things at once, and they hope it works. And what we really have to do is make it so small that it's easy to fix. If it's hard and it's complicated and it's a large problem, the chances are you probably ignored it for too long, and that's why it's that way. There just aren't many things that are going to show up in our life. They're going to require hours and hours of conflict to resolve.
Joshua Johnson:Do people shift communication types throughout their life, or they just stay in what their primary Yeah,
Jason VanRuler:I think, I think you develop skills where you have to so if you get a job somewhere, and how you're communicating doesn't really work, you adapt. I think some people are experts at that, but what I notice is when the stakes are high or there's pressure or conflict, we all kind of come back to our original. So we have that primary. And it's almost like, if you have an accent, you know, and you work really hard to lose it, but then you kind of get riled up. It's like, you go right back. And so that's how communication works for people, is they're like, even if I'm pretty well rounded when it really matters, I'm more likely than not to go back, which, by the way, I don't know if you've ever seen this with people. That's why people, when they get together, they're so in love, and they're like, we're the same. It's so good. And then they have conflict, like, Who is this person? I don't even well, because they're going back to who they've been.
Joshua Johnson:If people listening could improve their communication just 10% today. What advice would you. Give people to improve their communication. What's the like, the best bet to improve communication?
Jason VanRuler:Yeah, I mean, the simple one is, listen. I mean, that's been said a lot. So, I mean, I think listening is always going to be a good thing. I think be aware of your agenda. I think if you, if you go in and like, today, I'm like, hey, my central need is that when we end this call, I understand you better. We have a closer relationship, and people get something out of that. I can almost guarantee you that's going to happen. So a lot of times, just a small improvement is, what are you trying to do? What are you trying to do? And when you know that, and that's something that benefits everyone. It's pretty easy. Jason, what's your
Joshua Johnson:hope for your readers, for the people who pick up discovering your communication type and buy those 500 books and pass them out to their friends? What's your hope for?
Jason VanRuler:Yeah, that's a reasonable ask, I think so. Yeah, when you're doing that, when you're buying the 500 you know? I mean, it's kind of a, maybe a silly thing, but I really think this. I really think if we could have better relationships, we could change the world for the better. And I will just tell you in regardless of the room I've sat in, I whenever there's a problem, I've never not heard someone say communication was part of it. And so what I really believe is we just probably are never going to be taught as much as we need to know about it. And so my sincere hope is people use this and it makes their relationships better. That I mean that to me, is the win. If they
Joshua Johnson:do use this, it will make their relationships better. I think their bit will be able to have more self awareness in their communication, type, what they actually how they communicate, and you could actually have awareness into others so that you can say, Oh, this is where they're coming from. This is their intention behind what they're saying. And you can communicate in such a better way. It's a it's a really great book for people, I think because communication, you're right, is one of the deepest needs that we have in the world, and it's probably something that we have in the last, I don't know, however long, we've been really poor at it culturally, especially, we've been really bad at communicating And with our echo chambers that we have with social media, we just don't know how to communicate to people who are not like us anymore. So this is this is really good, and I think people should get this book I would love before we we end and we talk a little bit more about your book, where they connect with you, any recommendations from you, anything you've been reading or watching lately you could recommend?
Jason VanRuler:Yeah, I mean, I've been all into AI, just like everybody, you know. So, I mean, I think what I noticed a lot about communication as it relates to AI is we're just, you know, what's, what's gonna I think keep us in our humanity is our ability to connect. And so I think there's probably never been a better time to get better at it. And I think we all want to get back outside after covid, and we want to be around and now we just got to learn how to connect with people. So those are all things I've been really paying attention to. Is just how we do that. And then also, I think in terms of revival and things like that, communication is going to be what drives it, you know. So I'm not a guy here who can make a lot of promises about the book, unfortunately, but, but one promise I can make is no one's going to read it and say they're worse at communicating. And so it's kind of like, if you have that opportunity to get a little better, why
Joshua Johnson:wouldn't you? Well, discovering your communication type will be available anywhere books are sold. You go and get that, Jason, anywhere you'd like to point people to how can they connect with you and what you're doing as well? Yeah, yeah.
Jason VanRuler:They can go on Instagram. I do daily relationship stuff there. The other thing I'd just like to mention is there's the assessment from the book for free on my website. So I'll give you the link. And I think that's a great place to start. So if you're like, hey, this is intriguing to me, I want to learn a little more. Take the free assessment, see where you're at and go from there.
Joshua Johnson:Excellent. Well, Jason, thank you for helping us communicate better, that we could discover our own communication type and we discover the communication type of those around us, so that we could actually have deeper connection, better relationships, that we could actually see a way through conflict, because we could actually communicate well, it was fantastic. Conversation. Really enjoyed it. So thank you for this. It was fantastic.
Jason VanRuler:Yes, thank you so much for having me always good to talk to you. Very grateful. Thank you. Applause. You.
