Ep. 446 Joshua Luke Smith - Why the Life You Have is the Main Event

In this episode with Joshua Luke Smith we sit with the idea that the life in front of you is the main event – even when it is limited, when it is unglamorous, when it’s not what you hoped for. We talk about lament and shame, consecration and wonder, what the cell and limits teach us about freedom, how we need to put ourselves in the way of beauty to bring us back to who we are. It’s a conversation about attention and presence.

Joshua Luke Smith is a poet for the people. He’s a songwriter, community builder, podcaster and author. He’s the founder of The Psalmists, a charity cultivating creative practice in prisons and among those on the margins of society.
His new book "This is The Main Event" comes out in July 2026.

He lives with his family in London, UK.

Joshua's Book:

This is the Main Event

Joshua's Recommendation:

The Odyssey

Connect with Joshua: jjohnson@shiftingculturepodcast.com

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Transcript

Joshua Luke Smith: 0:00

So wonder has to move from a luxury to a place of great defiance in our life. It's almost it's the last act of defiance against falling into indifference and cynicism. Wonder is the cultivation of what God announced over the world when it first began. It is good, and for you to say it is good. It's to is to have pulled from the reservoir of wonder in your life. It is good to be here. You know what I'm observing before me is good.

Joshua Johnson: 0:42

Hello and welcome to the Shifting Culture podcast, in which we have conversations about the culture we create and the impact we can make. We long to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host, Joshua Johnson. You know we spend most of our lives waiting for the main event, the promotion, the platform, the version of life we assumed was coming, and then it arrives, and we're somehow less at home in ourselves than we were before. Our guest today, Joshua Luke Smith, is a poet and musician who spends two days a week in a prison, sitting in cells with men serving decades. He has a new book out. This is the main event. In this conversation, we talk about the monk's cell and the prison cell, and why one man chooses what another is sentenced to, and what both have to teach the rest of us about freedom. We move through lament into consecration, asking why the spiritual life has to begin with naming our pain rather than rushing past it. We talk about shame and the fear, shame control cycle that keeps us hiding, and the vulnerability that it's the only way out, and we land in a theology of play and wonder, the discipline of putting yourself in the way of beauty, of treating a hike or a date with your wife or an hour of morning silence not as a luxury but as a lifeline back to who you are and who God is. So, what if the life in front of you, the grief, the limitation, the ordinary graces, all of it, is the main event? Well, join us. Here is my conversation with Joshua Luke Smith. Well, Joshua, welcome to Shifting Culture. Excited to have you on. Thanks for joining me.

Joshua Luke Smith: 2:22

It's a pleasure. I'm grateful to be here. I've I've loved getting into the podcast. So, yeah, thank you for having me.

Joshua Johnson: 2:28

Thanks. Well, this is the main event. Your new book. We'll be talking about that. That's a phrase of saying,"Hey, this is the life that you live. You're here. You got to live

Unknown: 2:39

it.

Joshua Johnson: 2:40

What do you think that is happening culturally? Where this is an important message that this is the the place that you need to live. What's going on?

Joshua Luke Smith: 2:51

Yeah, you know that that phrase was born out of my wife and I in our you know early mid 20s realizing that life hasn't turned out the way that we had hoped in our naivety and our you know expectations of the future that were probably more rooted in fantasy than anything else, and you know I think as you get older you realize the difference between a fantasy and a dream. Let's say is a fantasy is completely based upon life going in the direction that you assume it will, and perhaps it not costing you anything, like your pride, or you know, costing you the the the pain and the effort of acknowledging what is within you being something that is an obstacle. And we we we kind of are coming across these events both internally and externally, our own kind of soulful journey of healing, as well as the external difficulties of life, and somewhere along the way, one of us said, "This is the main event. To the other, as an invitation back into our life. I'm a musician. I'm a poet, and I'm on the road a lot. And when you're touring, you're often playing with other artists, and you might be the support act, or you might have a support act, and there's always a main event on the bill that everyone is there to see. And so we were realizing a lot of life can be lived as if something is gonna happen, that is the thing we're really here for, and will hopefully validate what we're going through now. But the question is, what if this is it, and this is it can be said of one of two ways. You can say like this is it, or you can say this is it. And so we have over the last decade been practicing that as a mantra and as a prayer that invites us back into the center of our life, where our grief is, where our sorrow is, you know, where our joy is, with all the things that we yearn to feel deeply, and yeah, I put it into into a book from my friends.

Joshua Johnson: 4:52

Well, I think a lot of people feel like they want to be the main event. If you're coming into the the recording artist. You're the touring musician type of language, but they feel like I'm the supporting act, and I want to get to that being the headliner. I want to be the main event. When when you're the supporting act and you're you're coming up, how do you not just yearn for what's next and just stay in the place where you are right now,

Joshua Luke Smith: 5:23

yeah. One of the great tragedies of quote unquote making it, and that is obviously so subjective. And there's always someone who's done more than you and is more well known than you. But there is a point where, all right, you are the headliner, and you leave the stage realizing you are less happy than you when you were the support act, and for some reason, despite having experienced the thing you yearn for, you now feel less fulfilled. And so I remember I was working this retail job on the shop floor, folding T-shirts, and the phrase came to me: "There will only ever be another here, as in, "I'm only ever going to be here. I think I'm one day I'm going to be there, but when you're there, you're just here again. You know, you're just constantly here, and the only thing that will have changed is you will have become more despondent to that here because you're always anticipating there, and so the language that we're using is all you have is fully here, and and that would be my understanding of so much of Christ's teaching as well. Is tomorrow has enough worries of its own? Be here, and you know, allow beauty and presence and attention to be that which reorders and reorientates you. Look at the birds of the air and the flowers of the field. Well, you can translate that into your own life. I mean, Jesus is-he's on a hillside, literally looking at the birds of the air. So now it's look at the children running around you. You know what I mean? Like look at the look at whatever makes up the reality of your life, the raw ingredients of your life, and let it introduce you back into its center.

Joshua Johnson: 7:06

As you were were growing up, I know you were in in North Pakistan. Your your dad is a doctor doing a lot of incredible things. Your parents wanted to go change the world. You're there, sitting there in North Pakistan. How did that shape some of your view of the world of what God is doing within you, where you want to be, how you could be present where you are? How did that shift and change you and shape you?

Joshua Luke Smith: 7:34

Yeah, that that's such a good question. No one's ever asked me that question. That is, but it really is a big part of you know what has made me me. I've grown up with this sense of I'm here to do something significant, and I'm not saying this with any shade towards my parents. They're my heroes. I have seen them live out love in a way that has marked me forever. But there was a sense in our household that we're here to do something significant, and as a missionary kid, and this is prevalent in the missionary community, is the kind of language of changing the world and making impact. And ironically, alongside that, there is also the experience of great unfulfillment and disconnection from God, the people closest to you, and the life you actually inhabit. It's always one step away from you because you know I'm here to do something more important than what's in front of me right now. You know, and I've wrestled with that. You know, there's a psychologist who talks about you know our primary questions, like what is the primary question that drives you? And I think if I'm really honest with you, it would be, am I significant? And that that's not just am I is my identity a significant one? It's am I doing something of significance? And it can be very very altruistic. Like it can be very it could be of service, but it's still like, am I making an impact? Someone once said to me, I was probably 19 years old, and I was too young to understand the the beauty and the depth of this. He said, "If all God wanted you to do was get a one glass of water for one thirsty man, would it be enough? And I was I was like, "Of course, it wouldn't be enough. Like, I'm here to change the world, and now as I've grown older, I've realized that is the question that God asks me every day. You know, can Jesus says one day you'll, you know, I'll say you clothed me and you fed me and you were present to the person in front of me. And the irony is, in the desire to change the world, you know you're despondent and disconnected to the world that's actually right in front of you. The main event, you know,

Joshua Johnson: 9:49

I mean that reminds me a lot of some of the throughline in your book

Unknown: 9:54

is

Joshua Johnson: 9:54

is the cell and the monastery. You talk about Desert Fathers of. Abba Moses quotes of what the cell actually does. The limitations is just one glass of water for one thirsty person. Is that enough? Is this cell enough where I can actually be present and be here? Why did you take this cell analogy? What do you think limitations can help us do and navigate in our life? That image became holy to me

Joshua Luke Smith: 10:30

in a in a recovery journey for all of us, I think, in one way or another. But for me, in a very specific way, the the road runs out. You know, there's a moment where you get to the end of yourself. In my in my situation, it was living with certain dependencies and illusions that I felt were kind of at so you know in some ways aiding me, but were really pulling away from from me. It was living in fantasy. It was living with this kind of like fantasy idea of my life that perhaps what I was doing now didn't have the consequence it was having. It wasn't hurting the people around me, and I go into some more detail about this in the book. But the recovery journey was one of your life has to become really small. We we have to make your life what it is. It's a day at a time, and you'll hear this language in anyone who's embraced the 12 steps. One day at a time, one day at a time. Sobriety exists in the smallest measure of human experience. You know, just do today. The pathway there is true liberation is found in limitation, and we live in a world and a culture that would say you're liberated when you have as many options as possible. But the reality of that is you're you're never more entrapped. You know, the the the fear and the FOMO and the and the the sense of your life being somewhere other than you because you have all the options to do whatever you want and you could change it at a last minute's notice. That's hell, you know. But to say this is my life in all of its limitation, and I will find here what God has for me, and I will find here the fullness of myself, is a truly liberating experience. So yeah, you know, a young monk says to Abba Moses, "I'm wrestling with all these temptations and these like these feelings of being in my flesh. And Abba Moses replies, "Return to your cell. Go to your cell. It will teach you everything you need, so I'm in prison twice a week. So I've spent time, you know, with the men in their cells. I've spent time in monasteries around the world. The cell of a monk is is it almost exactly the same as a cell for an inmate, for you know, and one of those cells has been chosen. The monk has chosen the cell. The inmate hasn't chosen. Well, has in one respect, but would would prefer not to be in that cell. And we we can enter the cell one of two ways. You know, for me, I entered the cell because I had to. You know, it was it was the consecration and the the discipline of of God to to lead me into this place of limitation to save me from myself, but the invitation in the book is you can choose the cell, you can turn your life into a cell, and it become a sanctuary of of liberation.

Joshua Johnson: 13:14

It's a challenging concept. It's a challenging thing, especially if we're across the pond here in America, we we love our freedom. We want open the open road. We want open range. We want open skies. We want to be running around and running free. And a lot of times when I'm I'm running and I see openness, I am a little bit confused. I'm like it feels good, but I'm confused of where to go because there's only I could go anywhere, and it actually inhibits my living a little bit because there's so much that I could do. There's so much choice. That's why I love living in the Middle East. Like you go to the grocery store, you have a limited amount of choice, right? Yeah. You live in America. You have. You could choose 1000s of of cereals. So, what happens? Do you think? Why is limitations helpful for flourishing and open openness maybe inhibiting?

Joshua Luke Smith: 14:16

Jesus says the path to eternal life is a narrow way, and I used to think that was because it couldn't fit many people. You know, it's it was a it was a limitation of how many people could get there in the end. And what I found in this journey of discipleship and recovery is it doesn't fit all of me. You know, there's a lot of me I have to get rid of. I have to acknowledge. I have to die to to walk this path to eternal life. To walk this path of deliberate itself, and what I mean by that is, well, here's here's another picture that I love. I love thinking about when when Michelangelo sculpted the statue of David. Which, if you're listening to this and it doesn't come to your mind, just Google it. This unbelievable image of the human form with incredible precise detail-you know, the the muscular form-it's just outstanding. At one point, that that statue was a was a slab of marble, and you know, two other artists tried to to sculpt David, and they couldn't. And when Michelangelo did it at 27 he simply said, "I saw the angel in the stone, and I just kept chipping away. And and I I use that image often for myself. Of there is so much marble on me, there are so many definitions I've given myself of who I am, my identity, the way that I want to appear before people, the things I want to be defined by, the the fear I have, the self loathing, the shame, all of that. It's marble, and the journey of you know what I'm talking about. The main event is is the chipping away at the marble. It's the embracing of my actual life and who I actually am, which underneath it all is beloved, like beloved, beloved, beloved, and the reason I struggle with that at times is because there's so much, you know, extra identities around it. But Brennan Manning, the Franciscan, said, "You are defined as one radically loved by God, and every other self is an illusion. So the the limitation is like is the is the ridding ourselves of illusion, and this is why the I think the Beatitudes are a manifesto for life. We begin with blessed are the poor in spirit, that for theirs is the kingdom. Eugene Peterson, in his paraphrase, said, "Blessed are those who have come to the end of themselves. You know, who at the end of their tether, at the end of their rope, that is when God begins. That is the path to liberation. Finally, getting to the end of yourself, the end of your ego, the end of the facade, and now we can begin the conversation. You know,

Joshua Johnson: 16:54

that starts the the move of your book. It's it's in lament and in pain, and you mentioned, you know, being in in prisons, talking to to inmates every week, and one of the things said you're you're here because you you didn't know where to place your pain. Why do we start with laments and pain before the praise and the adoration? How does that help us to start with laments and actually go through the the grief and the process of doing that.

Joshua Luke Smith: 17:25

I mean, to answer that simply, it's because it's the truth. You know, it's it's the truth of our being. It's the truth of who we are. It's the truth of the world that we live in. C.S. Lewis has this. I just read this last night. I've been rereading the the Great Divorce, and I won't do the whole context now. But here's a line in which he says,"The grass of reality is harsh for shadows, for feet made of shadows. The grass of reality is harsh for feet made of shadows. And but if we want to touch the actual reality of our life, we must move from the, you know, the posture of being a shadow to being a being of like, and this the truth is, this is really hard, and what we fear most may happen and has happened in many cases, you know. So when Jesus says, "Blessed are those who mourn, he's not saying it's good to have something to grieve about. He's saying you become blessed when you announce your life for what it actually is, and and then receive comfort from God. God is unable to comfort you if you are unable to express the reality of your pain. But this is this is my experience with men in prison. This is experience that I have within myself. Your grief leaks out, and it just leaks in different expressions, but it finds its way out. It's all got to go somewhere, you know. So the phrase I use with the men in

prison over and over again: 18:46

if I begin saying it now, they all just say it because they've heard it so many times. There is no such thing as road rage. There is just rage, and then there's a road. You know, there's there's whatever the thing is that pulls the the rage out of you finally, and rage is just grief, you know. And so the men that are there for violent crimes. I was in there yesterday, you know, with with a guy that's in there for for murder. He's he's he's 19 years old, and you know, in our session, he's doing 35 years, and in our sessions, what is just coming out is unthinkable pain, you know, abuse and loss, and you know stories. If I told you, you just shudder, and and it's the absence of goodness that has resulted in this perpetual cycle of suffering. So if we can if we can begin with lament, if we can begin with naming the pain, we can tame that which is within us that could be destructive.

Joshua Johnson: 19:48

For someone like me, growing up in the church, was a missionary on the on the mission field in the Middle East, have come back, done all these things. I. Love light, but one of the things you you mention is that light can't be light unless there is darkness, and I often want to just focus on the light because I love the light, but the really messy darkness and blackness that's that's there is necessary. How do we see it so that the light can come in?

Joshua Luke Smith: 20:28

You ask such good questions, man. The first funeral I ever was a part of leading as a pastor was for a child, a baby that was lost, and it was it was a transformative experience in just holding that space for a couple who are going through the unthinkable, the worst case scenario. And there's a lot I could say about that experience, but I remember the mother saying to me, "We won't be coming to church for a while, and it's not because we're upset with you or upset with the church, she said, "We just can't do triumphalism anymore, or right now. And what she was saying is, we can't do triumph without an acknowledgement of tragedy, and unless they exist together, we can't bring ourselves to that. And when you read the Psalms of Ascent, you know, towards the end of of the Psalms, what you realize is the Psalms of Ascent are all Psalms of celebration because of what we have walked through. You know, you know Psalm 121 which is a lot of people's favorites. I you know I look to the hills. Where does my help come from? And and it's an acknowledgement of I have been saved, and we have to acknowledge what have we been saved from, and we can't have that conversation unless we talk about the trial and the tragedy. And so there is no psalm of ascent without the psalm of lament. And I would kind of go a step further of saying, you know, there's times where I've needed to be called out of, you know, speaking with triumph and having a close friend say, "Josh, I just don't believe you. You know, there's a difference between you know,"Oh, my soul, bless the Lord, and really going on that internal journey through the terrain of what you've been through and pulling yourself in this kind of I'm strengthening myself in God. There's a difference between that and just denying it, you know, and just denying it. And so, once the road has run out, whether that's because you can't deny how you have disturbed the peace, or if the roads run out because you've lost something or someone that has brought you to your knees. Once that happens, your song of ascent, your understanding of the light becomes becomes something that will never be taken from you, and it and it becomes a a bringer of hope for others in a way that is is is life changing. Like yeah, it's life changing.

Joshua Johnson: 24:00

It is. I mean, isn't that the story of Jesus, the death,

Unknown: 24:02

right, and then the resurrection. Absolutely,

Joshua Johnson: 24:04

you know the the utter darkness and the the resurrection. The story of of Peter, the the denial, darkness, and then the restoration on the beach. We could go on and on. This is the story of of Christianity, right? Is death, resurrection. If we just focus on one without the other, then we get screwed up, we get mixed up, and you know life goes off the rails. So how do we bring? So in our everyday thing, one of the things you start to talk about is is consecration. So consecrating your life, your your ordinary life, to the Lord. This is it. This is the main event. How do we move from then the the lamentation, the grief, the pain, the sorrow into a consecration moment?

Joshua Luke Smith: 24:51

My experience of grief and shame has often been, well, I I guess this is my lot. Like if this if this tragedy has happened once, what's to stop it happening again? Or if I'm capable of doing this, that can bring pain to another. Like, how could I be defined by anything else? And so that all exists within lament. When when we talk about consecration, my my experience is it's the movement of this is broken. To here, here is the broken pieces of my life. I'm offering them to you, God, to do something with them that I cannot do on my own. And the image I love with this, that I probably speak about too many times in the book, is is the young boy with the loaves and fishes. Is basically here's my not enoughness. Like here's my lunch, here's my life that clearly isn't enough. Do something with it, God. Like you know. So the verse in Joshua that that I love is consecrate, consecrate yourselves today because tomorrow God is doing great things amongst you, and and the simple you know beauty of that is. It's not consecrate yourself so God can do great things. It's consecrate yourself because He is doing great things, and your ability to participate and simply bear witness to what He's doing is dependent upon you bringing your entire life to the table and saying, "This is it. Like this is it. This is my life. I now want to participate. I now want to not sit on the edges, but participate in the middle of it. And I love Henry Nowen's understanding of this: of I'm bringing the broken bits of my life to be blessed by you, God, like Jesus taking the packed lunch and blessing it, so that it might be nourishment for others. And that is my my experience of the recovery recovery room is sitting in a circle with people with the loaves and fissures of their life just feeding one another, and you know, if if you were to ask me, Josh, what is the most compelling attribute of a person or a leader in your life at the moment, I would say without a doubt, it's their limp. Like without a doubt, it's their vulnerability, and I would say that is what is what the the wider culture is. I would say that's our greatest apologetic to culture, as walk those who walk with Jesus is our limp, is is our dependency upon His grace. So to consecrate is to take the ordinary and the not enough, and the broken parts of my life, and mark it as holy because grace is poured out upon it.

Joshua Johnson: 27:28

You've been mentioning a lot of your not enoughness, your shame, feeling like your you yourself are not enough. I think one of the things that it seems to me that maybe recovery of being in a a room with a circle of people that are all bringing their not enough helps you to say okay I can bring whatever I have there. A lot of people don't have a circle; they have themselves. I know if I feel like I'm not enough, I feel like I'm shamed. The first thing I want to do is like Adam and Eve, I want to go hide from God. I want to. I want to hide. How do people get out of the hiding when they know that they're not enough? The shame is heavy.

Joshua Luke Smith: 28:12

Yeah, it's a great question. We talked about this yesterday in prison. So if it's okay, I'm going to pull from the the environment. If you can imagine it, you know, seven. There was eight guys sat around in this little chapel, and and I just shared with them the story that you've just referenced with Adam and Eve, and you know I put it in these terms of they believe a lie, they believe the lie that they have to do something to become like God, you know, and the truth is God said, "Let us make them in our image. So when they when they had nothing to offer before they were stewarding the animals, they were made in the image of God, the Imago Dei. That was that was given to them. It was a gift, and then the lie was you have to do something to earn that. So I know you know this, but I'm just I'm just giving you this kind of like context to the guys yesterday, and then they do it. They take the fruit, as we know, and immediately they become aware of their nakedness. But it was actually their nakedness that was part of the image bearing of of God. So they hide their nakedness, and that's you know the the first experience of shame. God comes to the garden and says, "Where are you? Not because he has lost them, but because they've lost themselves. And he finds them hiding. And then when he speaks to them, we then get this slightly controlling, you know, manipulative. Let me get the narrative straight. Conversation. So what I shared with the men yesterday is what we see there is a cycle. It's fear, it's shame, and it's control, and that just goes round and round and round. I'm afraid of what I've done, so I'm going to hide what I've done, and I'm going to control the environment around me, so you never actually see the true me. And we can talk about it fairly flippantly now, but the reality is, that's how we live our lives. That's how a lot of people live their entirety of their lives. So I said to the men yesterday, "What is the what is the way we can break the cycle? How do we break the cycle? And the conclusion was there is only one way out of the cycle, and it's to become naked again. It's vulnerability. That's the only way out is to become vulnerable. So I said to the men, can we amongst each other now? Can we name the lie that we believe that began the cycle? And we just spent time in silence, sitting there. And you know, I was praying, and I, you know, in those moments, you're like, "Oh, I just hope someone says something. And it just it became apparent I have to go first. So I said, "All right, I'm going to name the lie. And the lie for me is I have to prove myself to receive worth. I have to constantly do something to prove why I'm worthy of a conversation or attention or an opportunity. And then what happened was around the room, everyone began by acknowledging they felt something similar, and then went into the more specifics of what they feel. So.

I would say to that question: 31:01

Here's the hard reality. You might have to go first. You might have to you might have to create the circle, and then you might have to go first within the circle, and it might feel really painful. But it is the pathway to to liberation.

Joshua Johnson: 31:16

I think when we we don't like bring our our not enoughness, give it to Christ. We're not going to see the miracle of you know the 5000 fed, the the whole crowd fed, and the multiplying of the loaves and fishes.

Joshua Luke Smith: 31:30

That's right. If

Joshua Johnson: 31:31

we don't bring those things, so what are we paying attention to in our daily lives as we're bringing our not enoughness? How do we pay attention so we don't miss the the beauty, the things that are that are happening with our not enoughness.

Joshua Luke Smith: 31:45

I love thinking about mercy in this context. So we often think about mercy as something that we get when we're not enough, when when we need help, and that of course is true. That that is that that's the mercy of God displayed in so many different areas. I think of Psalm 50-one, but I also think about you know it's Ecclesiastes. Oh, is it Lamentations? Your mercies are new every morning, and the image of every day, rather than God's mercy is replenished, every day there is a new opportunity to bear witness to His mercy in your life. His mercy is everywhere. I bring my not enoughness, and what do I receive? His mercy, but his mercy requires me to pay attention to it and to bear witness to it. Frederick Beatonner, one of my favorite writers, said, "Listen to your life. He said, "If I was called upon to to to name everything I was ever trying to say as a writer, a novelist, a preacher, it would be this: Listen to your life and see it for the fathomless mystery that it is, you know. And he says, you know, kissing your wife goodbye, dropping your kids off at school, doing an ordinary day's work. God is hidden within it. And the phrase I love is, he says, because in the last analysis, you'll realize that all moments were key moments, and life itself was grace. So when you're looking for grace and you're looking for mercy, mercy has come to you disguised as your own life, and our inability to pay attention is our inability to receive. So this could be anything from I mean writing the lists of mercy in your life. Like these are the ways that mercy has wrapped itself around me, from the breath that I breathe, to the children that I have, to the clothes on my back, and you you start feeling the weight of God's presence in your life as a result. And not to get ahead of myself, but that is what then leads us into adoration and ascent. Our posture suddenly changes. We've gone from lamentation to consecration to the sense of I now want to offer gratitude genuinely. My goodness, you know this is Paul saying in all things I have become content. You know I've had much and I've had little from the prison cell to the temple. Like I I sing the same song. You know

Joshua Johnson: 33:57

three years ago I was blessed to be on a sabbatical for three months. I read Frederick Beekner. I read what you were just quoting there, and I was paying attention to the ordinary graces of of life, and I could see it all. I had time to be able to see it all. We got to go into the Austrian Alps and go on a hike and see the little, you know, the little flowers that haven't been there for for years, if they've been showing up and all sorts of incredible things that we're seeing, but then I get back into an everyday busyness of life of difficult, and it's hard to pay attention when there's things coming at you constantly. What's helped you in these everyday busyness moments of life with family and and work and creativity and and all the things that you're you're doing to actually pay attention?

Joshua Luke Smith: 34:57

Yeah, because what we're not talking about is becoming like obsessive, you know, and feeling that if you don't mark every single moment in your life as something significant, then you're going to miss it. If I can just dive into into a into scripture again, this is a story that took up a lot of space in my childhood imagination, and you know the story of Daniel and the Babylonian captivity, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, the fire, and but what has become apparent to me in in my you know more recent years is when when Nebuchadnezzar first calls for Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego to be brought to him, one of the officials says they pay you no attention. They you know you you you you've erected these idols, and you've put in these laws. They pay you no attention, and I think part of it is rather than constantly paying attention to your life, it's stop paying attention to idols and stop paying attention to that which numbs you and distracts you and dulls you. That has been it for me, honestly, more than anything. Is. The reason it's so difficult to pay attention to your life is because your attention is towards the banal and just that which distracts you. So, if I could offer one one simple, if we can make it really practical, I'm going to say something that you've heard a billion times before. But in our, you know, in in shifting culture, this is surely important. It's it's eliminate distraction, like it's eliminate that which just dulls your brain. Allow your the first hour of your day to be to be one of space and silence and solitude as much as you can. Do not infiltrate the simplicity of your day with a barrage of rage baiting and you know, just shallow distraction. So yeah, I want to be like those those Hebrews in Babylon of like I just don't pay attention. You know what I mean?

Joshua Johnson: 36:52

You know when I teach missionaries, church planters, people going out trying to make disciples of Jesus, we often talk about the early church Acts two, we go through you know what the early church was doing, and we often walk through some of the things that Jesus has talked about, and so and the early church is doing, and we come up with this list of things, and we say, hey, these are the things we want to be doing. It's giving generously, it's praying, you know. It's it's worship. It's all these these different things. But one of the things I often miss is the the place where it says that they were in awe and full of wonder. It's the awe and wonder that we we miss when it comes to like, hey, these are the rules to follow Jesus, and then we forget. Like there's some wonder here. There's some awe here, and so as we're walking through this consecration, the bringing the not enoughness, the paying attention, how do we come back to awe and wonder in our life?

Joshua Luke Smith: 37:58

Yeah, my my daughter is now six. That before she was born, we were talking about like what kind of parents we want to be, and we were particularly talking about what is the spiritual dynamic that we want to bring our you know our daughter into. So there there was a particular individual who we admired massively as a as a man, as a father, as a as a individual, and so we got a conversation with his son, and and said, "Can we ask you some questions about who he was as a dad? And it was so interesting because for everything he said, the thing that stuck out more than anything was my dad was a man of wonder, and of all he taught, you know, of all he he personified in virtue and principle, it was his wonder that has shaped me and formed him most deeply. And I, you know, wonder feels like a luxury when you're living in a world where the worst case scenarios seem to happen, where what we fear most often does happen. So wonder has to move from a luxury to a place of great defiance in our life. It's almost it's the last act of defiance against falling into indifference and cynicism. Wonder is the cultivation of what God announced over the world when it first began. It is good, and for you to say it is good, it's to is to have pulled from the reservoir of wonder in your life. It is good to be here. You know what I'm observing before me is good. It's the kind of it's it's a restoration of the Edonic vision. You know. So again, if we can get practical, you know, there's a there's a discipline in my life of Josh put yourself in the way of beauty, you know, beauty is an apologetic. Put yourself in the way of beauty, which is everything for me on a weekly basis, bro. Of being in nature, going to the cinema, reading great books, going on dates with my wife, playing with my kids, you know, so much. Which in in our general conversations feel like luxuries, feel like we don't have time for. And the question is, if we don't have time for that, what is the point in any of this? It says the kingdom of God is righteousness, peace, and joy. Whatever great work you're doing, if it's not an overflow of peace and joy, it's not of the kingdom. Like that's pretty, you know, humbling. That's what personifies the kingdom is peace and joy, and so yeah, I do this in the book. But some of some of the writing in the book around adoration and awe are just meditations on the simple things in my life and spending time being mesmerized by them and dwelling within them and inhabiting them in ways that I haven't in different parts of my life. When I was too distracted or too in pain or just too numbed to do that.

Joshua Johnson: 40:51

When I'm thinking about this is the main event and and we're we're living in wonder. There's there's beauty we see. Let's let's live here and now. One of the things that it does-it's hard for me to be present because I'm a very future-oriented thinker. Like I think about the future, I want to drive towards the future. You've mentioned a few times the difference between fantasy and dream, and sometimes God gives us dreams, and we have dreams of a better future. That's why I think sunflowers in Babylon really resonated with so many people. And you have in your book is like, what are we building? What are we planting? What are we planting for generations to come? That's there. How do we not just get stuck here, but dream for the future of a future full of kingdom and shalom and goodness and beauty, and not miss what's going on right now. Like, where's the tension of the of the building for the future and the staying present?

Joshua Luke Smith: 41:58

Yeah, yeah. the the Jeremiah prophecy of I have a you know hope and a future, I know the plans I have for you, plans to prosper you. It's just so worth reminding ourselves that that is a prophecy given to people in Babylon, like in exile, right? And and and what what goes before that is plant your gardens in Babylon, seek the flourishing of the city. Marry your children. Marry yourself to the land. And I never heard that, bro. Like no one ever communicated that verse in that context. It was always on a print or a coffee mug, you know. As just like this, one day it's all going to be great. One day it is going to be great. But it depends on us planting a garden where we are, and and that's the garden that flourishes, and that's the garden we can dream for. That's that that those are the trees that we'll plant within our grandparents. So our grandchildren will sit in the shade of. They happen here, where we don't want to be. Like they happen in the limitation of our life. They happen in the in the spaces where we've been yearning to escape from, but this is the only world to which we belong. You know, so turn your exile into Eden and turn your sorrow into a song. You know, like it's here and it's now. Now we can start dreaming, and and I'm with you. I'm a future. I've written this book because I've had to live these pages as a future-oriented person, or you know, the the future is something that is that is almost the the the place I most want to populate with my dreams. And the tragedy is I forget to plant the seeds in the soil where I am. So, the the book is a call to do both. You know, plant your seeds where you are, sow that generations you don't even know are going to reap from the harvest that you've sown.

Joshua Johnson: 43:47

When you sit down and you say, "Hey, I want to write a poem, a spoken word. I want to write a song. I'm gonna, I'm gonna do some sort of creative work. What drives you for that? What is what is something that this is the thing that I want to get out in the world, and from whatever angle it is, and whatever you're putting out.

Joshua Luke Smith: 44:09

Yeah, I mean, initially it begins with a a curiosity and a joy. You know, I just similar to what my you know like playing sport or whatever. Like I just want to go kick a ball about. Like I just, I just want to, I just want to have some fun with words and melody, and it genuinely does. There's times where I feel a burden. I'll feel a, I'll hear a line. I think, man, there's, there's a weight on this that I, unless I can articulate this, there's something that feels like it's, you know, literally unspoken within me. But I will never feel the, the profundity or the potential impact of something until the sense of play and curiosity has like been cultivated. I'm working on a piece right now, and you know, for a long time, I've wanted to say a few things around this particular subject, and I've been trying to find my way in. I haven't met or find it, and the the poem begins with the most simple, on the nose kind of language. But it's my entry point into the piece, you know. So yeah, and you know, not to repeat myself over and over, but a lot of the time it is almost like as a time capsule to capture the life I have to to capture the moments I'm living. Yeah.

Joshua Johnson: 45:23

Well, I think you know when you're you you want moments of beauty. You're talking about moments of beauty here and now, and that's part of adoration. But you talked about play and curiosity. Now, I think one of the the things in the Christian world, one of the things that is underserved is like a theology of play of like this is who we were created to be is people who play, and and that's not dismissing any of the the darkness or the you know the hard difficult things.

Joshua Luke Smith: 45:56

Yeah,

Joshua Johnson: 45:57

where does where did play come in with even within. Relationship with God,

Joshua Luke Smith: 46:02

yeah, yeah. Well, if I I'll speak straight to that because that that has been been profoundly impactful. God is ageless, but that doesn't mean He's old. And if He's anything, He is young. You know, we we have a young God in terms of what we mean by youth. You know, a God that does not grow weary, you know. In Chesterton's beautiful image, a God that every time the sun rises, says,"Do it again. You know, just that the it is it is always within the adult where the fatigue of play begins. It is never in the child, and of those two images, God is the child saying, "Let's do it again. God is continually moving us forward, and so when God relates to us, that is how He's relating to us. And we have for too long engaged with a God that we've aged. You know what I mean? That is too old to play, or is you know is indifferent to our play. When it's quite the opposite, it is God who's calling us into play, calling us into into delight. Yes, Jesus in John 10. I've come to bring you life and life in abundance. You know the Greek perisos, like a life that goes beyond what you anticipate. So then it's a case of well, where do you find joy? I love

asking people this question: 47:13

like, what fills your cup? What what brings you joy? Be specific. God is in that. God is in that more than anything else, if the kingdom is righteousness, peace, and joy, if it's a fruit of His Spirit, so then you become more mindful and aware of Him in that which brings you life, whether that is, you know, doing your gardening or playing sport, or these are not luxuries; these are lifelines back to who you are and who God is.

Joshua Johnson: 47:42

You know, if you can talk to your readers, people who read this is the main event. What's your big hope for this? What do you hope that this keeps the world?

Joshua Luke Smith: 47:51

I really did write this book with with my friends in mind, you know, and with people that like me have got to that point in their life where it hasn't worked out as you initially hoped, my hope is that this book would would lead you back into the center of your life, which I'm aware for some people feels like a really painful or at least inconvenient thing to do, away from the shallow water of fantasy into the depth of reality, and from that point, from that reintroduction, reinvitation to your life, you'd be able to look at it and say, "This is good. This is good. This is good.

Joshua Johnson: 48:30

Yeah. So, in that being present, is renewal possible in people's

Joshua Luke Smith: 48:35

lives? Yeah, yeah. And I would say there's no other way to renewal than that than that presence. You know, behold, I'm making all things new. If I can just add this, I love that image in Mel Gibson's The Passion when Christ is bearing the cross and the thorns are penetrating his skull and his skin is hanging off and he's bruised and bloody and he looks over into the crowd and sees Mary, his mother. You know, white as a ghost, just beholding her son in such agony, and he says, "See, mother, I'm making all things new. And it's just such a powerful image that, in the reality of our life, we meet the incarnated God who announces over it, "I'm making all things new. May I know I'm going on? I'll just share this really quickly. On Saturday, I spoke at the wedding of one of the guys who came out of prison, and his bride walked down the aisle, and I wept like a baby. I haven't cried like that in so long, because she was walking down, and all I could think about was her years of suffering and sorrow and abuse, and she had been in prison, and I could see him, and I could thought of all the pain he's been in, and they looked like kids, overjoyed in the simplicity of their love and God's light upon them. And I got up to speak, and I just wept, mate. I tried to talk, and I just cried. And I read from Song of Songs two verse 10: "Come away with me, my lovely one. Come, see the winter is over and gone. The springtime is here. And I thought this is a picture of renewal. This is a picture of new creation, that one day the world will be made new. But it is being made new right before us if we have eyes to see it.

Joshua Johnson: 50:14

So good, so good. Well, a couple quick questions I like to ask at the end. So, one, if you go back to your 20-one-year-old self, what advice would you give?

Joshua Luke Smith: 50:23

I would say, Josh, don't run away. Don't run away. Stay in the center of your life, son. Don't run away.

Joshua Johnson: 50:32

Anything you've been reading, watching, listening to that you could recommend?

Joshua Luke Smith: 50:36

Yeah. All right. I I have just finished reading the Odyssey because I wanted to read it before the the Christopher Nolan film came out, and I always just felt intimidated by it, like ancient Greek myth. But it's it's a great read. I read the I can't remember her last name, Emily something translation. It reads beautifully and it reads easily. So that I've been loving that. Took me about about three months to read it, but I've loved reading that. What. I watch. Oh, do you know what? This is an older film, but I love it, and I saw it again recently. Catch me if you can. Leonardo DiCaprio and Tom Hanks, fantastic film.

Joshua Johnson: 51:10

Josh, this book, this is the main event. Will be available end of July. Anywhere books are sold, and people could go and get that. Is there anywhere you'd like to point people to? How can they connect with you? What you're doing?

Joshua Luke Smith: 51:21

Yeah, you can. I'm on. I'm on Instagram, Joshua Luke Smith, and I'm also on Patreon. We have a huddle every month if people want to get involved in that and get encouraged. But man, I'm really grateful. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate the work you're doing.

Joshua Johnson: 51:35

Well, thank you, thank you, Josh. This is a fantastic conversation. Really, really enjoyed talking to you. So,

Unknown: 51:40

thank you so much.