Ep. 452 Pricelis Perreaux-Dominguez - We Have Mistaken Sameness for Unity

In this episode, Pricelis Perreaux-Dominguez argues that much of what the American church calls peace is really just quiet — and that what we call unity is often sameness, congregations gathered around shared opinion rather than around Christ, where difference gets managed, silenced, or shown the door. We talk about how sameness took root in the church, why our opinions became idols we defend like God, what it means to hold truth with an open hand, and why discomfort is a practice rather than a personality trait. It's a conversation that confronts, but toward something better than the false peace we've settled for.

Pricelis Perreaux-Dominguez (MSW, MSEd) is a Black Latina and daughter of immigrants who’s committed to truth telling and helping the body of Christ be pro-neighbor. She is the founder and CEO of Full Collective and creator of the annual Sowers Summit in New York City. She is the author of Being a Sanctuary and the new book False Peace releasing on August 25th. She just graduated a master’s in biblical and theological studies from Denver Seminary. She is on staff at the NYC chapter of Safe Families for Children and is an associate pastor at Renovation City Church in the Bronx, New York, where she lives with her husband and son.

Pricelis' Book:

False Peace

Pricelis' Recommendation:

From Genesis to Junia

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Jesus is different because everything that he says includes emotion, character, integrity, humility. And so I think if we were to follow based on that framework, then we approach doctrine, we approach people, we approach the discipleship process, we approach division with those things the with those things in mind, being compassionate, being gentle, being mindful. But if we're just focused on doctrine as the foundation, then it's it's absent of those different kinds of characteristics and emotions that can actually help us be in communion with one another and communication with one another. That's effective.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

Nobody's arguing, nobody's wrestling with the truth together. What we do is we go into our silos of sameness. Priscelli's Dominguez calls this false peace. And she wrote a book about it. And she wrote it because she kept watching congregations mistake sameness for oneness, churches that unified around opinion, ideology, or mission, and then discovered that whatever holds people together that way cannot hold them for very long. So in this conversation, we talk about where sameness entered the church and how it got confused with unity. We get into beliefism, the reflex that turns disagreement into enemy, and why humility is the posture missing from nearly all of our arguing. We go into some deep places that I think we need to wrestle with because we want to see true peace. We want to be unified around the mind of Christ. Because we are one body, one body of Christ. So what if the peace you're protecting is the thing keeping us apart? Join us. Here is my conversation with Priscellis Dominguez. Welcome to Shifting Culture. Thank you for coming on. I'm so excited for you to be here. Yeah, me too. Thank you. Let's talk about your book, False Peace, which is a fantastic look at rejecting of sameness and getting back into unity, into oneness. What then for you is sameness? What is the difference between sameness and oneness?

SPEAKER_00 2:44

Yeah, thank you. And thank you for reading my book. So I would categorize sameness as focus on the word same, right? Of everyone trying to be the same, look the same, sound the same, think the same, with no like outside distinction or uniqueness of the person, right? So that, like, for example, me and my family, that we would all sound and look the same, and that we wouldn't have unique perspectives or thoughts on something. And and that just it kind of distorts God's idea of making unique people and a unique humanity. So sameness is different from one oneness because we do see the word same often in scripture, but it's often to be in to have the one a one mind of Christ. So it's saying agree, but on this, like be focused on being like Christ on this. Like, don't, if y'all disagreeing on what it looks like to be like Jesus, then there's a problem, right? But be unique and have your own interpretations of different kinds of things. And so I think sameness is is really messing messing us up. It's it's causing us to be really uncomfortable with difference and not knowing uh what to do in like disagreement.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

Where did sameness come into the church? How did we get to sameness?

SPEAKER_00 3:59

There could be a lot of different kinds of theories and ideas that people could have. Um, but when I look at I just finished seminary and I took a church history class, and when I look at church history and I look at the Reformation, there was something about Martin Luther posing the 95 thesis that really startled people because it was this idea that, like, well, no, we're just supposed to like agree, which I mean, in a lot of sense, people would call that a cult. Like, if you can't disagree, that's usually called a cult. And and that exists, you know, within churches and Christianity. But there's something about that moment where he said, okay, this is what's always been. I think we're doing some things wrong. Um, and people have said that after him and before him, but I think that's a really good example of how uh we can look at what has been consistent in tradition and say, oh, actually, no, like this is not what it's meant to look like. And so I think that's one example of in history, specifically church history, that that happened. Um, and then I mean, particularly through how Christianity arrived to the United States, which was the true through the transatlantic slave trade, it was perpetuating an idea of sameness, right? That we would all be the same. And even in that case, people were, particularly black people, were being told uh a false gospel because it excluded freedom. And so, yeah, I think there's different points in church history that people could argue that it began. The only part I wouldn't argue that it began didn't begin was at Pentecost. I think Pentecost was the opposite. Pentecost invited difference, Pentecost invited all different kinds of people, and so I think that's the start of the invitation of diversity, and then after that, uh we messed up and did the other things.

SPEAKER_01 5:45

We've been messing up for a while, yeah. But you said that the slaves were given a false gospel. You start your book out of rejecting the anti-gospel. So, what do you think is an anti-gospel that has seeped into you the church?

SPEAKER_00 6:02

Yeah, so I would say the anti-gospel is creating this image of freedom that is not real, creating this image of the peace that is not real. Uh, because Jesus literally died for it. And so for us to pretend something is freedom when it's not is anti-gospel. And I would say false peace, us just kumbayaing and just everything, being passive and getting along is uh is anti-gospel because part of him dying for us is a freedom and not just freedom for our sins, but freedom to live in liberation, freedom to live as we are and who we are. Uh, this doesn't mean that as we are who we are in in heightening our sin if we're walking in some sort of sin, but really walking in liberation. And and false peace is the opposite of that. False peace says, no, don't be yourself. Who God created you to be is not like who you should be. False peace is really scared of difference. And so I I would say it's anti-gospel because it it it dismisses the image-bearingness of God, of us, and part of like, you know, he went to the cross, not for like bots or plants or animals, he went for image bearers, and so and image bearers that are unique and that hold different kinds of ways of being and living, and so I think it it it uh it distorts that and opposes that, and so I think we're supposed to reject it.

SPEAKER_01 7:22

This is really a hard distinction, but it's an important distinction for the church and for people is to get the difference between sameness and oneness, right? Because what are we trying to unify at? And how do we know that it is the mind of Christ? Like, how do we know this is the place that we are putting our unity at? This is where we're coming together, is the mind of Christ. How do we know the mind of Christ?

SPEAKER_00 7:50

Yeah, I and I wrestled with that in the book because I I also like to to give a blanket statement would be y'all have to agree with me. And that again is perpetuating sameness, right? So it's a little complicated. And and I think I think more than anything, curiosity has to be this at the center of it and communication. Because I think what what happens is that some someone, let's say like me, or someone, let's say it's a pastor, whatever, they want to be the one to determine, oh, where is the line of division and where isn't, right? And like I said, I talk about the book, I wrestle with it, but actually, specifically in the book, when I talk about when division helps, like when we ought to be divided, I don't give specific examples. And I say that in the book on purpose because I'm not trying to replace people's discernment. Um, I'm not trying to be the Holy Spirit for people. So I think um when one of the chapters I talk about, you know, theological theological triage, which some people know about, some people don't. I talk about what we should divide for, divide over, die for, right, debate over, like those different kinds of theories and concepts that people have created throughout history. And I add a little bit of my spice to those um ideas, but I think theological triage is very helpful. What I've actually learned the past few years is that people actually have different theological triages. So they would put different things in different levels, and then I'm like, all right, so now we're complicating it anymore because I thought it was just like one standard. So I think what it really does, it forces us to actually unify so we can talk about it. So we can talk about, oh, what is the standard? What is the thing that we should be unifying on? What is it to follow Jesus? What is the gospel? And then other things like oh, interpretation and things like that. So, but it can't happen online in debates, it can't happen on a YouTube channel on a debate. It can't, it happens in the everyday uh community of being body of Christ together.

SPEAKER_01 10:46

So if we're using theological triage, can you just give me tell us what it is for people who haven't heard of theological triage and like what are the steps and maybe what you say might be a better triage?

SPEAKER_00 11:01

Yeah. So what people usually say theological triage is the first level is like kind of, I guess you say the basics of the foundation. So like that we would all the thing that we all agree on, which is like the gospel that what why Jesus died, die for our sins, the understanding of the Trinity, agreeing that God is three persons in one. So that's like the theological foundation of like, well, if you don't really believe these things, maybe you're not Christian, or maybe you believe something else, right? So that's like the foundational part. And that's the like the place where we like quote unquote wouldn't disagree on. And then there's the second and third, which are really like preferences and interpretations, right? So like preferences of like, does your church prefer a specific kind of music on Sunday? Do y'all prefer communion one way over another? Or interpretation? Do y'all interpret scripture to say only children get baptized? Do y'all interpret scripture to say, oh, only a professing believer baptizes? Do y'all interpret scripture to say sexuality uh is, you know, uh marriages between one man and one woman? Do you interpret scripture to say something else? So that's interpretation, and then there's preference. And so those are then the second and the third levels of theological triage. Some people add a fourth, but those those are like kind of like how people have interpreted it. I I would say I agree with that. I agree with that standard and that way of like functioning with like unity and differences and embracing differences. I think what I've seen is sometimes people add what is on the second and third, they put it in the first triage. So, for example, they will put, let's say, sexuality or women leadership in the first one. I'm like, well, those are not salvific. Like when we get to the gates, we get when if Jesus returns, like that's not what he's you know, checking for, for specifically for our theology. So, so yeah, usually the foundational I would consider is like, is this salvific? Or then can we disagree? Right. So that's uh what I really offer in the book is I I think we use that as a standard. I think it's helpful. It really transformed my life when I learned about it because it helped me figure out what to fight over, honestly. Like it me, it it helped me because I'm I'm an advocate, I'm a fighter, I'm a social worker. Like I just want to fight for what's right. And that helped me uh discern when to fight and how to fight, and also how to communicate and with compassion with others. So it actually really is a helpful tool. But I in the in the book I offer um some other ideas about um, I believe I say dismantle, discern, disciple, and one more day. And so I'm adding these because I think like, you know, we can have all these things, but it's like, where does discipleship play into this? We can have all these things, but where does discernment play into this? We can have all these things, but where does dismantling maybe systems that uh perpetuate harm and things within these preferences and interpretations? So I think there's just I I wanted to offer more because maybe for some people that may feel a little too black and white, or it might feel a little like too academic. So I wanted to offer like a more everyday life approach to the to the triage.

SPEAKER_01 14:03

So if we are unified in the the mind of Christ, what we can actually do then is start to dismantle. So we could start to unlearn the things that we have. And we're not we're not holding on to the the doctrine as our bedrock. We're actually holding on to the mind of Christ, we're holding on to Christ as our the thing that we're holding on to. So that gives us permission to start to dismantle, right? And then we can start to have some sort of metanoia process or the changing of our mind, and then the relearning, the discipleship process into what we need to get to, right? And then we're moving towards something beautiful. Yeah. So how do we when we start with the with Christ as our our unity rather than starting with the with doctrine as our unity, what do you see the differences in the way that we relate to one another and we are the church?

SPEAKER_00 15:07

Yeah. Well, I think the main part would be that if uh Jesus is our unity or or the the one we are framing our unity around, then we will exemplify him. Doctrine does for the most part, I I mean people could maybe interpret it when, but I don't interpret doctrine to be like compassionate words, right? Like, or gentle words or trauma-informed words. They're not harmful, they're not bad, but they're just like straightforward, right? Like they say what it is, they write the interpretation, but Jesus is different because everything that he says includes emotion, character, integrity, humility. And so I think if we were to follow based on that framework, then we approach doctrine, we approach people, we approach the discipleship process, we approach division with those things, the with those things in mind, being compassionate, being gentle, being mindful. But if we're just focused on doctrine as the foundation, then it's it's absent of those different kinds of characteristics and emotions that can actually help us be in communion with one another and communication with one another. That's effective. Because the thing is, we are in communication with one another, one another. Very few people are being silent or or keeping their opinions to themselves. But it is void sometimes of those characteristics of Jesus. And it feels very like sometimes I wouldn't think that people maybe would say this about themselves, but it's it feels legalistic. It feels like it doesn't have um the fruits and spirit in mind, the fruit of the spirit in mind when when we're communicating about things that we disagree on or things that we agree on. So I think that's why it's that's more important. Doctrine is absolutely important, but to follow Jesus and to have him be the foundation of unity is more important.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

So I want to know how the this works when we have a polarized, crazy community, church culture, American culture, just like culture in general, that were we really have different beliefs. You talk about beliefism in your book. So how did we get to this place when we disagree on belief? Like the if we believe something different, they are automatically enemy. How did we get to this place? And then I wanted to to move into some ways to move forward, but how did we get there? And to belief means different belief means enemy.

SPEAKER_00 17:39

Yeah, I think we made it it was the it was small seeds of making our opinions idols. And I and I'm gonna speak for myself because I actually I struggle with this. What if someone disagrees with me? It feels like it then feels like I'm wrong, even if I feel I'm right, and maybe let's say I am right, but to feel wrong feels like wrong. It feels like shameful or like you know, oh my gosh, how did I get here? Or or how many people have I told this wrong thing to? Like it's a little bit dramatic. I'm gonna say like it's just a little bit dramatic because we make our opinion an idol, we make our opinion fact. When opinion is literally that, it's just an opinion, it's just an interpretation. And so I think we've held on to it a little bit like God. The way we're supposed to hold on to God is how we hold on to our opinions, to our beliefs, to our thoughts. And so anything that is different from that, we we feel um like it's like it's a threat, like it's threat threatening us. And I know for me too, like in the years that I went through like the unlearning and I'm still unlearning so much, it rattled a little bit like my whole life. Like, because if you're grounded on something that you think you believe and then it turns out to be wrong, it's not like oh, okay, then I can just go to lunch right now, right? Like it really does affect us. And I don't think we admit how much it affects us. So instead of admitting it and going through that process, we just say, no, everything I believe is true no matter what. It's this, it's this dependence on certainty. And I think the only thing we should really focus on being certain of is who of who Jesus is and who Jesus was, and everything else we should have with open hand, be willing to change our mind. This is, I'm saying this too as a pastor. Like people come to me for answers, and there's times where I'm like, let's have a conversation and look at scripture together and wrestle with it together because I don't have all the answers and I have beliefs and I have perspectives, but I also don't want to, again, that's like a culty, right? To like tell you what to believe instead of help you get to where you arrive to what you believe. So yeah, I think it really has come from making an idol of our theology, making an idol of our opinion, and not being self-aware enough to acknowledge where that came from us personally. Maybe it's trauma experiences from our childhood, maybe we were always told we were wrong growing up, maybe we didn't do well in school. There can be a varied reason of per person, but every person responds to it and reacts to it differently, I think, based on things that they're not addressing.

SPEAKER_01 20:15

Say there's an issue in a church of different beliefs. Maybe there's a justice issue that we're we're dealing with. So reading something like Circle of Hope that came out a few years ago about a community in Philadelphia where hey, this was in the wake of COVID and George Floyd's. One of the things that I saw in this case study for me is that the the church itself made a few justice issues, which are good, but made them this is the thing that we want to be unified on. And what I saw is that Jesus was put to the side so that we could just unify over this issue, whatever the issue is, right? And what happened was was division, destruction, people left, there was arguments, there was disunity because they unified over an idea rather than Jesus and then wrestled with the idea. So when we're dealing with something which is a justice issue that God cares deeply about, which is hey, we see dehumanization, God cares about the dignity of all people, it's a it's something he cares about, we should care about. How do we come together and stay unified when ideologies seem to be the thing that is actually holding us together rather than Jesus?

SPEAKER_00 21:49

Yeah, yeah, that's great. That's a great question and a great example. I think often we we we divorce Jesus from justice. And and that's just I think it's not a biblical way, because if there is there are several narratives we see consistently from Genesis to Revelation, and one of them is that God is just and the work of justice. And so to divorce and like want to just follow an ideology and divorce that work from Jesus, I would ask the question is like, was it justice? Was it the work of justice, or was it just the work of doing good, right? Of wanting to do good for something or for someone. Um, and that's still good, that still holds power and weight and effect in the world. But when we divorce Jesus from honestly anything that is good, from justice to generosity to anything, then it becomes human-based. It becomes rooted in things that we desire and hope for. And that's dangerous because we sin, right? So we could be generous and all these things, but no matter what foundation we create, it's going to include some level of sin or distortion because that's just that's just what we struggle with. But when we make Jesus the foundation, then sin will only find its its place in because people have projected it onto. The foundation of Jesus and justice goes together void of sin, right? It's it's the it's the attacking of sin. And so I think that uh is always so important because it really is just like putting Jesus on the side, or even I would say parallel, putting scripture on the side when I'm wanting to do justice is um it dishonors the work of justice because all throughout the Bible we see uh the work of justice happening. And so when we're putting scripture on the side or Jesus on the side, we're actually doing it based on oh, what we think justice should be. When you don't have to try to figure it out, you don't have to try to assume it. The answer is right there. He shows you the way. And so I think sometimes we do like the the most as a side. Like I think we we go an extra step when we already have the answers. And again, I think that's connected to the opinion thing. Like when we want to do justice our way, it's because we want to be right more than doing right. And so we have to go back to how Jesus exemplifies and does justice and how we see it in scripture.

SPEAKER_01 24:01

So, what's the process then for a group of people to be able to do that?

SPEAKER_00 24:06

I think this this varies based on the church or the group because there are, let's say, for example, I'm part of a church here in the Bronx, I'm a pastor in a church, and all around us, there's injustice. We walk outside the church doors, there's it's happening all around us, it's happening to people in our church. Like it's not something we really have to think uh to imagine or or try to think, oh, how could this be? Like, no, we're we're living it and we're seeing it. So our conversation around how to address injustice is both how to teach and address it to the people we are called to serve in our neighborhood, but also to the people in our church. How do we uh lament what with one another and you know go through the hard things with one another because we ourselves are also going through the very thing that we're called to serve other people in. And then there's churches that that's not the lived experience, that not everybody or majority of people are experiencing injustice, or it's not in a setting or location where injustice is happening. And then that's a different kind of conversation because then that includes it's like, well, okay, what does justice look like in our city? Because no matter where you live, no matter, let's say how rich or whatever, there's injustice happening everywhere. It's just, you know, on higher levels and lower levels and different places. So that's a different kind of kind of conversation. And I I would include, yes, using scripture, but if if a church or community feels that they don't have the knowledge or understanding of how to actually live it out in their city or in their town, that they invite people to come learn from them so they can learn how that actually applies and not in a in a one-off way, because I think sometimes that happens like, oh, let's just invite a black person to like, you know, learn about the black experience. Like, no, build a relationship with that person and and have several conversations with that person and invite that person, include that person to lead, right? And to serve that person and to pay them well to be able to help you do that in your city or in your community. Um, so I think it does look different based on the setting and the people within the church, but all of it includes conversations, all of it includes going to scripture, and all of it should include actions that are a lifestyle and not a one-off event.

SPEAKER_01 26:16

I've been in situations, I think a lot of people have been in situations within the church where they want, I think maybe leadership or people within the church want false peace, they want uniformity, they want, you know, the sameness. And when something doesn't look like sameness, people are either thrown out or silenced, and it's really tough. When we're in situations that that want to produce sameness and uniformity over the diversity of God, and not say we're unified around the mind of Christ, around Christ. We're just unified over our maybe the mission that we have together. And this is actually more important than Jesus. It's the mission, and you need to be the same here. What do we do? How do we how do we create a sense of of real peace in that situation when you're not someone that has a lot of power to be able to change the situation?

SPEAKER_00 27:22

Yeah. Yeah, I've been there. So I think one of the first things is definitely to pray and to consider is what you're noticing specifically, like what does it do in your mind and your heart? Like, is it a trigger from your past? Is what you think is happening actually happening, or are you assuming it to look like like I think there's a some processing that is required? Sometimes we can be reactive. And so I think taking time to pray, talk with maybe other people, not being very mindful to not gossip, but just like talking to maybe other people that maybe you notice maybe also don't feel like they belong or feel like they have to be a certain way and they're not be themselves. So to engage, like, okay, is it just me, right? Like, are other people discerning this? And then I would talk to, I would suggest people to talk to leadership, right? Any church, people should have access to talk to their leadership and share feedback. If that's they can't, that's I would argue that's not a healthy church, right? So a healthy church, um, even if they are perpetuating sameness in healthy church, um, because sometimes people actually honestly don't realize that they are a healthy church uh makes room for feedback and for people to share. And so I would suggest that that person shares, right? And that they come with some certain talking points, examples, but that they also come with some scripture, that they would come with how scripture uh affirms this idea and what it looks like to be in oneness and some specific examples that they're addressing and giving feedback for. My husband and I did that in our in the first church we were part of while we've been married. Um and it wasn't received well, you know, we were told we were offended and all this other stuff. But when I look back, I was just like, you know, these pastors are just a couple kids, they really didn't know what they were doing. Like there's there's there's so much grace, like it's still not okay, but there's still so much grace that I when I look back in retrospect, I extend because I'm just like, yeah, y'all, all y'all know was sameness, right? So you just continued what you already already known. But you know, obviously they could have responded differently in the conversation. And for us, our decision was to leave because it's different to like listen and maybe disagree and then say, like, oh, you know, we'll think about this or maybe let's have a few more conversations. But then, but they just like got offended. They they they troll the uh the the idea, what I was saying, like their opinion and their interpretation was more important. And then so they said that we were offended and all this stuff, and so we decided, you know, to step away. But I I think it is important to talk to leadership, but I think it first first check our heart, first check our mind, first pray, spend some time thinking about it, and then communicate with the leadership and maybe even ask, like at the end of the conversation, if you what you feel feel went well, hey, can we follow up in a few weeks? Hey, can we follow up in a few months about this? Hey, how can I contribute to the very things that I have brought up? Because I think sometimes too, we want things to change, but we're like, y'all do it. You know, it's just like hands off, y'all do it. And I think, yeah, like I think anything when it comes to like the work of justice advocates, the their their focus and idea is never to like tell people what to do, but help contribute to the helping the change. And that should happen too in churches. If we want to see something different, we should not just be able to talk about it, but want to contribute to that change.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

Yeah, we're a part of a uh Protestant church whose word is protest that and it feels like we have what like 47,000 different Protestant denominations, and it seems like, oh, I didn't I think this belief wasn't right, and so we're going to split and you know, do something different, and we're gonna create our own little thing here. We like to do this, right? We like to divide. So, in those situations, how do we know when division is something that we actually is needed for health and growth to be more like Jesus? And one where we're just being obstinate and it's not healthy, we shouldn't divide, we should work for peace and unity.

SPEAKER_00 31:31

Yeah, I think division is necessary when in in spaces or cultures or ministries, it seems like oppression, pride, dehumanization are like norms that aren't used as like the words, those words are not used, but like that is like the norm and the culture of the space. Like I'm like, okay, that's a time to divide, right? Uh, because that's just not the way of Jesus. I I would I would argue that that's a lot of like how Pharisees and Sadducees walked, and that Jesus was like, he engaged with them and he and he corrected them, talked to them, but he was not, you know, saying, like, oh, let's just hang out and agree and all these kinds of things, right? Like he made a clear distinction. And and so so yeah, I think that's one example. I think also like when just there's different like ways of being a Christian. Like, I think so. Although there's a lot of denominations, I think there is a beauty that like there are so many churches because we're we're not all, yeah, supposed to like look the same. Like when I was on a when we were on a church journey, search journey, you know, we were like, oh, we were really struggling to like find a place for us. But whenever I left a place, I was like, I'm so glad for the people that are there that this is the place for them, right? Like sometimes we just we want ever like everything to like be for like us. I'm like, you will find that, but like you won't find that every church because every church does not is not appealing or made for every single person, right? So I think there's space for that as well. Like, and I don't know if we would call that like division, but just like separation of just like having different kinds of spaces that concentrate on different things, look different, sound different, right? Like that's just the beauty of the of the diversity of the church. And then I think that when you're saying like the third part of like the division of like when to discern, uh, because we're like reacting. I think sometimes we want to divide just because like we disagreed on one thing, which is again why, and like it's not a it's not a foundational first theological triage thing, right? And like everyone has the right, right, to like decide that and and have a different thought. But like, and and this one is a really hard topic, but I think sexuality, for example, like that's a huge one where like it's not the first, it's not salvific, but people will really determine what church they go to based on the interpretation of that. And I totally, totally get that, right? But I think more so it's like f considering like, well, why do you want to go to a specific church that affirms a specific thing about sexuality? Because I think it's different for like, let's say, women in leadership. Like, I have several friends who believe that women should be pastors and can lead, and they belong to churches who don't believe that, and they can be a part of those spaces. Could I? Maybe not, I don't know, right? But like they could, and I think there are specific things that really divide us, like sexuality, and then there's things that we can, there's more like openness to be in spaces together, even in the midst of disagreement. And so I think we need to discern that more and check our hearts on like, well, could I be in a space? Uh, what's my preferences and what's my priorities, right? In a space, and what do I need to divide over?

SPEAKER_01 34:45

That's good. So, what do you think that peacemaking is? How how do we do like real peacemaking?

SPEAKER_00 34:53

This is a really hard one for me. So, even like just talk, like sometimes I uh, you know, I feel I'm like, Lord, I feel just very uh double-minded because this is a hard thing for me to do, even so, right? But the way I defined it in in the book and how I I often like just sit talk about it is the having the heart or having the goal of wanting things to be right more than wanting to be right. And what that simply means, right, is like if there is an issue between me and someone, um, even if let's say I think I'm right, make making sure I want to address that person in that situation in a way that's like compassionate and that things are right with us. I would say specifically if like they're a safe person, right? Like there's situations where someone's like not safe and they're not uh welcoming your interaction, but being willing to have conversations, also being willing to confront someone if they actually are wrong, right? And not confront them to uh to make them feel bad about being wrong, but wanting to have truth come to light. That's what I think Jesus honestly was doing every time he was talking to the Pharisees. Like people be wanting to make him feel like, oh yeah, he wasn't, he wasn't playing. I was like, he still loved them, he still wanted them to have right doctrine, which is why he addressed their bad doctrine. Like we are we're wanting to see like he was he was uh he was like maybe belittling them, but uh even when he was doing the woes, which can seem very intense, like ultimately I I believe is like he's like he just wanted them to return to what's right and to what's true. Um, and that's what is I think to love people, to tell them the truth. So I feel like peacemaking is is the both and that. Like if you are right, like having a conversation to want to make things right, and or if someone actually is wrong, wanting to help them find the truth, not because you're right or they're wrong, but because truth really matters and transforms people's lives.

SPEAKER_01 36:44

We hold on to truth, we believe that we what we have is the truth. Yeah. So how do we get to a place? How do you change a posture to say, let's search what truth is in this situation? Instead of saying, I already have the truth, and if you don't come to my side, nothing is gonna, you know, we're not gonna have peace. How do we switch so that we can actually be on the same side, discerning truth together?

SPEAKER_00 37:19

Yeah, I think humility is the answer. Humility is the answer because the second part of what you just said lacks humility. It just says, I'm right, everybody needs to agree with me. Like there, there's no, even Jesus, literally having all the truth, being always right, literally every time, still held so much humility in his interactions, in his communication. Um, we see all throughout the Old Testament God's humility to really be patient with the saints, right? When they're just like they're getting it wrong. And I think it's such an overlooked characteristic of God that humility really is the answer to so many of our problems, including this, right? Because this idea, and I think I've seen actually, I really appreciate when I see people who do apologetics and are humble, because I think most of us do like a version of apologetics, but like in a prideful way, right? But it's like, well, just like you're saying, like I want to sit with you and walk alongside you and figure this out together. And maybe I'll change my mind. Maybe I'll change my mind, right? But like having the humility to like be willing to to do that, you know. Uh, I think that that's that's a piece that's missing when it comes to our interactions.

SPEAKER_01 38:31

So let's think about working with others, being unified in Christ, working with others to have different beliefs. So you you mentioned sexuality, so we have a say we have a different concept of a sexuality, a belief of like same-sex marriage or same-sex union, or no, and nothing like the traditional view of marriage. And we're saying, can we work together if we have two different thoughts? Help me. How how do we work together? How do we do this?

SPEAKER_00 39:03

Oh, I think yes. Um, and and and and the thing is, two years ago, I would not have said that. So again, with the humility and the learning and unlearning, but I have I I came to the conclusion, and I'm like, okay, so there's the extreme that, like, okay, same people who are not affirming, I don't really love those terms, but we'll use what people use, not affirming, uh, people are homophobic and affirming are heretic. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, let us take it down a notch, both those things. And the thing is, yes, some people who are not affirming are homophobic, but to equate one automatically with the other is not fair. And then also some people who are affirming are heretical, and not just because of that, for a lot of different reasons, right, reasons, right? But it's but to to also be be willing to like consider like, okay, what are their other theologies? How do they come to this conclusion, right? So I think that's always one of the things. Part of humility is to be patient enough and compassionate enough and curious enough to ask, how did someone come to their interpretation? I would say the same thing about like women in leadership and women who can't. There are people who are complementarian just because they're sexist. It's not even about scripture. They're just sexists, right? And so I think there's something about like, and we can't know that unless there's relationship. We can't know that unless there was more than one conversation. We can't know these things. And we don't want to know these things. We just want to know labels and jump to these extreme places. So I'm I'm of the mind that I, for me, in doing ministry, I can connect with and do ministry with people who have a different interpretation of sexuality as I do. And then, for example, would would that person maybe like preach at our church about sexuality? Maybe not, right? But like in other spaces, would I have them on my podcast, would I have them on my conference? Would I uh uh um would I endorse a book, right? Like there's different ways of being unified without affirming and agreeing with people completely. But I think people can people um don't like that. They want, um, and people even do that with me. Like, all the I'm I'm I connect and do ministry with all different kinds of people. And I constantly have to tell people, I'm just like, I don't affirm everything that person says. I don't agree with everything that person says. And people, I think, think that way. They're just like, oh, endorsement and connection and community means affirmation completely. I'm like, is that your whole life? Is everyone in your life, like your parents, your friends, your past, everyone in your life, y'all just agree on everything? That's a little crazy. I I just can't believe that. That's just not true, right? I think that's like a part of it of like being willing to have several conversations and not just jump to these places to name call each other, but really figure out like, well, how did you come to this interpretation? And can we still be in ministry and community through your process of arriving to this interpretation? Because, like I said, people can and uh people can have a standpoint based on something that's oppressive and dehumanizing, but sometimes it's not based on that. Sometimes it's simply based on what they have interpreted in scripture.

SPEAKER_01 42:11

The American church in the last 10 years has really started to split into being in sameness, in deep sameness, of saying, okay, I go to a a church now, I don't agree with this one belief. I'm gonna find somewhere that we all agree, right? And so, yeah, so the people who say to you, you know, hey, you affirm everything that this person says because you you did one event with him. They do live like that. They do live like I need to be with the people that agree with me, and it's more comfortable for me, yeah, right? That is a place of comfort. Americans do not like discomfort, they they like their their comfort. How can you, how can me, how can I help the American church say we can come together in difference and be unified. We don't have to stay in our little silos that we have because we need to come together as the body of Christ, not just as individual little churches that agree with the same beliefs. We need to have the mind of Christ and be unified among that. We're the body of Christ together. So, how do we do this? How are you gonna help the church? What are you gonna do? Help us move back into a place where we could see difference and love one another in spite of it.

SPEAKER_00 43:43

Yeah, yeah. So I talk about this like practicing discomfort. And I mean the thing is I I'm speaking from a I live in New York City. I am I am I'm always uncomfortable, right? Like it just like I am as in as in not in a bad way, it's just that like, yes, I am not surrounded by people always who look like me. It's not like we're it's it's so diverse in all the ways that diversity can exist, possibly, right? Like my neighbor, my neighbor is Muslim, right? Like my other neighbor um is West African, like my other neighbor across the street is Indian, my neighbor down the block is is is uh Dominican. I have a neighbor down the uh across the street who's in a wheelchair. Like I am surrounded by people who are like me, and I'm also surrounded by people who are not like me. And so I guess I've been I've been rooted in diversity and quote unquote discomfort majority of my life. So it's it's actually like discomfort is not really like uncomfortable for me anymore. It's just like it is what it is, right? It's my norm. And I think we can get there. It will take time though, because we are so embedded in comfort that it is going to take a while to, because it's a practice to practice discomfort will take a while because for some people it's decades. Or years of not just being comfortable, but prioritizing comfort. Like they seek to be comfortable. Like you're saying this example, they'll leave a church because of one disagreement to find another church. I'm like, I would love to hear about, you know, a place where like you agree with all the theology, right? Like in all the ways, right? But I think it is gonna take a lot of time and it's also gonna take a collective step. Because if just a few of us are seeking to practice discomfort and the rest of the folks are not, then we're just gonna do the same. We're gonna create one little group that's doing it, and then everyone else is gonna continue with the status quo, right? So it does take a practice. I talk about in the book, it takes choosing to be the other, right? Not to be othered, right? That's a different thing, but choosing to be the other. Like, you know, there's a lot of churches where uh the leaders are white and their congregation is super diverse, um, which is great, but the opposite is not often the case. If their leadership is diverse, um is people of color, that that crowd is also mainly gonna be people of color, maybe a few white people here and there, right? And so I'm like, we need to choose to enter into spaces. I constantly put myself like on purpose in spaces where I am different and think differently. Like I'm like, I'm not reformed, I go into reform spaces, right? Like I'm not complementarian, go into complementarian spaces. Um, because these are these are my brothers and sisters in Christ, and I want to learn from y'all, right? And maybe while I'm there, y'all can learn from some from learn from me too, but I'm not coming with the agenda that I'm gonna teach y'all, but I simply am coming to the with the agenda that I I know that there is something that I can get and learn from being in these different spaces, and it will be uncomfortable because I disagree with y'all, right? But it's I think it's just it's since I was like existed in this world that I have been practicing this. So, and I'm 36, so I can't. I also want to have patience and grace that if we were all to like enter this, and then there's a lot of people that are intentionally doing this, it's gonna take a while to see the fruit. So we have to be patient enough to wait for it.

SPEAKER_01 47:02

We've been waiting a long time.

SPEAKER_00 47:05

I agree. I agree.

SPEAKER_01 47:08

I guess we could wait a little bit longer, a little bit longer.

SPEAKER_00 47:11

Jesus, Jesus might come sooner than how long we have to wait.

SPEAKER_01 47:14

Yeah, let's hope. Uh I Jesus can unify us, right? Yes, yeah, Jesus could do it. Yeah, um, yeah, that would be good. Um, so false peace. What hope do you have for this book? What would you hope for this book and for the your readers?

SPEAKER_00 47:32

Yeah, I hope that it can really confront us in a in a good way, but confront um leaders, pastors, congregants, people that think maybe they have no voice to help change the church. I hope it can confront us in the best way. And like I start the book with talking about discontent, that we would enter to discontentment about how things are, because I think we only change things when we're discontent. And so that's what I hope. I hope, and that's that might sound not that positive, but I hope for confrontation and discontent that can lead to real peace, freedom, and love for one another, because also the world is having a distorted image of Jesus, and it's because of us. And I want, I want them to see the real Jesus too, but it has to come that we would uh we would be willing to do do something about it.

SPEAKER_01 48:21

Well, great. Well, hey, just be discontented and it's gonna confront people and it'll be wonderful. I think this is what comfortable Americans really want in their books. It's uh uncomfortable and be confronted. Yes, so we can make some change, right? Uh, but so I do I do hope people uh pick this up and read this. I think it'll be uh it's gonna be really, really beneficial uh for us to to walk in in unity, embody true unity, what that looks like, yeah, and not have this false peace. A couple quick questions I like to ask at the end. One, if you go back to your 21-year-old self, what advice would you give?

SPEAKER_00 49:01

Ooh, what you're looking for is Jesus. I was I was looking for Jesus everywhere and everything, and every belief system and every philosophy in the world, and I didn't know that it was Jesus that I was looking for. So yeah, thank God I I found him again, but I was very all over the place.

SPEAKER_01 49:19

That's great. It's good. Anything you've been reading or watching lately you could recommend?

SPEAKER_00 49:24

I'm watching, I'm not necessarily like an anime person, but my husband's Hugo Marble. We're watching X-Men um 97, and it's just so good because it's I mean, it's so powerful because it talks so much about like sameness and other and people who are different. So it's just so powerful. Like me growing up, I watch X-Men. I didn't think it was that deep, but it it is pretty, it's pretty deep. Um, and it's just a fun, it's a fun show to watch in the midst of a crazy world. And I am reading um right now from Genesis to Junior by Preston Sprinkle, and that's been, yeah, really hope, really good. And yeah, he's made a lot of points that I haven't even like thought about, even though you know I have the same per perspective, but it's been really good.

SPEAKER_01 50:03

Well, false peace will be available August 25th, anywhere books are sold. So you go and get that, be confronted with uh the things that you need to be confronted with, get some some discontent in your life so we can make some change. Amen. Move to embody true unity. Um, is there anywhere you'd like to point people to? How can they connect with you and what you're doing?

SPEAKER_00 50:22

Yeah, sure. My website is percellispd.com and then the same um Instagram handle at Percelli's PD. I I have a Substack. I'm not loyal to it, so for forgive me, all my Substack followers. Uh, but those are the two main places that you can find me.

SPEAKER_01 50:36

Well, Percellis, thank you for this conversation. Uh, it was fantastic. Really loved going deep uh with you. And uh man, hopefully people come away with this and actually start to wrestle with some of these things and go deeper because you brought up a lot of a lot of things that people need to to sit with, wrestle with, uh, and go deep with. So thank you for confronting us in this conversation. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 50:59

Thank you for having me.