Shifting Culture
On Shifting Culture we have conversations at the intersection of faith, culture, justice, and the way of Jesus. Hosted by Joshua Johnson, this podcast features long-form conversations with authors, theologians, artists, and cultural thinkers to trace how embodied love, courage, and creative faithfulness offer a culture of real healing and hope.
Shifting Culture
Ep. 453 Eric Geiger - Rooted Leaders Bear Fruit That Lasts
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In this episode, Eric Geiger and I dig into what's growing underneath a leader's life. We've all watched leaders fall over the past few years, and the wreckage takes a long time to clear. Eric's conviction is that we keep working on the things we can see, when the real question is the root system beneath it. We read Nehemiah as a leadership journal, talk about vision as burden and belief intermingled, how credibility gets built when trust in leaders is at an all-time low, what's actually worth fighting, and why being overwhelmed might be something that grows you rather than takes you out.
Eric Geiger serves as the senior pastor of Mariners Church in Southern California, where he lives with his wife, Kaye, and their two daughters, Eden and Evie. Eric received his doctorate in leadership and church ministry from Southern Seminary. Eric has led in both marketplace and ministry settings, as senior vice president and chief business officer of a publishing company, a consultant on vision and strategy, and a local church pastor.
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People don't exist for leaders. Leaders exist for people. We we are in our roles not so that we are served, but so that we can serve people, and we want to have amazing fruit for the people that that we're responsible for. We want to give them fruitful leadership.
Joshua Johnson:Hello and welcome to the Shifting Culture podcast, in which we have conversations about the culture we create and the impact we can make. We long to see the body of Christ look like Jesus. I'm your host Joshua Johnson. We have seen a lot of leaders fall in the last few years, and the damage of that lasts. It's not just a one-time thing. There are ripple effects. Well, Eric Geiger thinks the problem isn't the fruit that we see; it's the roots that we don't. Eric pastors a large church in Southern California, and his new
book is *The Rooted Leader:Seven Rhythms of Leaders Who Bear Fruit That Last* He reads the book of Nehemiah as a leadership journal. Nehemiah was a cupbearer, not a priest, but he prayed for months before he made a single plan. And Eric asks, "What has to be true underneath a leader before the visible things hold weight, vision, he says, is burden and belief growing together. Copy someone else's, and you'll drop it the first time it costs you something. In this conversation, we talk about building credibility when trust in institutions and pastors is as low as it's ever been about knowing what's worth fighting and what isn't. About why being overwhelmed can actually be a sign of growth rather than failure, and about what changed for Eric when he realized people wanted him to be a spiritual father. This is a great conversation about leadership that lasts, that bears real fruit, fruit of transformed lives, fruit of the spirit. So join us. Here is my conversation with Eric Geiger. Eric, welcome to Shifting Culture. Excited to have you on. Thanks for joining me.
Eric Geiger:I'm so honored that you had me. Thanks for inviting me.
Joshua Johnson:I'm excited to dive into the rooted leader. Seven rhythms of leaders who bear fruits that last. I think it's it's important that we figure out what rootedness looks like today. Why is rootedness something that you wanted to tackle? Why is it important that roots go deep?
Eric Geiger:Yeah, I mean, there's so many levels to the to answer that question. One one that is the the most prominent is we're definitely seeing people topple at an alarming rate. I mean, we you constantly read about stories and on social media as well of leaders, both ministry and marketplace, who have a fall, a toppling, and it's super painful not only for the for the person, but obviously for their family, for the organization or the church, if it's a local church leader, and unlike a tree, when a tree falls down, it takes a couple days to pick up all the debris and put in the back of a pickup truck and haul it off. When a leader topples, the the damage is is long lasting, and the the debris sometimes is years, decades of just picking up the pieces, and so we for sure want to see less leaders fall. We want to see fewer falls, you know, fewer toppling. So there, there's one, there's one level, and then another, another level is not only about persevering and making it to the end as leaders, but we want to be fruitful. People don't exist for leaders; leaders exist for people. We we are in our roles not so that we are served, but so that we can serve people. And we want to have amazing fruit for the people that that we're responsible for. We want to give them fruitful leadership. Oftentimes, there's so much conversation about in leadership about the fruit and and really awesome things like vision and perseverance and conviction, but
I think a deeper question is:What's the roots beneath the surface that produces that healthy fruit, as opposed to just focusing on the fruit and then manufacturing or trying to artificially produce that fruit? Let's look. Let's look deeper beneath the surface and see what the roots are that produce that produce that fruit.
Joshua Johnson:One thing that I love about trees, and if I'm looking at the root system, and you're going underneath the ground, one trees are are networked with other trees. That they have, you know, warning signals with other trees. They're saying, "Hey, you can find some water over here, so the root can move over to water. So they communicate with the roots and through the root system, and one of the things that I have seen a lot, I think, with the toppling is that if the roots don't go deep, they're not intermingled. They're not together with other trees. It feels like they're alone in it, and that tree-that's the tree that starts. To topple over,
Eric Geiger:yeah.
Joshua Johnson:What's the importance of of starting to like collaborate in in leadership in the root system?
Eric Geiger:I love the question, and and I think it's it's super insightful. One of my favorite trees, and it's not just one tree, but a bunch of trees. You know, I live in Southern California, but up the coast above San Francisco, there's the sequoia trees, and I've I've been several times. Amazing, these trees in the Bay Area, just a bit north of San Francisco, like Sausalita area. These trees have been around 2000 years, some of them, and so they have lasted through lots of weather changes, lots of damaging winds, and and you know storms that have gone through the Bay Area, and yet they have stood. I mean, some of them have been there since Jesus has walked the earth, right? So they've been there a really long time. You walk into the forest; the trees are 300 feet in the in the air. It the forest is even kind of dark because the canopy is covering the forest. It's really beautiful when you walk in, and then you notice that these trees they all grow together in groves or in community, and then the the really the the shocking thing to read on the signs when you walk in Joshua is that the the roots actually of those trees that go 300 feet in the air they don't really go that deep like four feet deep. It's like what? How on earth does a tree stand 300 feet tall when the roots are only four feet deep? You keep reading on the sign, and the sign says that, but notice you never see a sequoia tree growing alone. They only grow in groves, though their roots are shallow. They intermingle and they hold one another up. So it's really a beautiful vision of not toppling because of community. And so certainly, if the if the question is only about how do we not topple, then intermingling roots with other people who who can hold us up is essential, absolutely essential. Which is why God's given us community. God's given us the church, and He uses the church to hold us up. He He He uses the church or He uses community to keep us. So, like Philippians chapter one, Paul says, "I'm confident in verse six that he who began a good work in you is faithful to carry it to completion until the day of Christ Jesus, but he says that on the heels of verse three through five when he say when he says I'm so thankful of our partnership in the gospel our koinonia our fellowship we intermingle in the gospel and so one of the reasons he was so confident that these people were going to be kept by Jesus is because they they their their roots intermingle. They they they they're not alone. They're not isolated, like you mentioned.
Joshua Johnson:How is Nehemiah and the book of Nehemiah a good example for for us to to figure out how the roots grow deep and the that intermingling that comes? The
Eric Geiger:reason I love the book of Nehemiah is that as the people I shepherd and pastor who are marketplace leaders can see themselves in the book of Nehemiah? Because Nehemiah wasn't, if you use modern day nomenclature, he he wasn't clergy. He wasn't a pastor in that day. He wasn't a priest or a scribe. He was a cupbearer in Persia, who then moves to Judea to Jerusalem, and he becomes a visionary rebuilder, and then he becomes a governor. So he leads in multiple contexts, and it's really just fascinating to read the book of Nehemiah because obviously, those of us who are Christians, we believe this is God's word. It's every word's true, and and therefore useful and helpful for us to grow in godliness. But even if someone's not a follower of Jesus, you can read the book of Nehemiah and and be really a bit in awe that you are reading his leadership journal. And there's so many examples we can look at in him. But if you want to, if you want to just look at from the example of being connected in others and not being isolated. When when he rebuilds the wall, he's right alongside people alongside the wall. Chapter three, he lists all of these people's names, exactly where he placed them. I mean, he he he was known by the people and he knew the people. He wasn't a leader who, you know, a term I've used sometimes is like a cuckoo clock leader who goes and hides away from people, and then every now and then cuckoo, you know, comes out and like casts a vision, then goes back and hides and is not known by the people. He he, that's not Nehemiah at all. He is in it with the people, and so he's he's connected to community.
Joshua Johnson:He is that marketplace leader there, and then he has someone like Ezra that is bringing in a lot of the spiritual side. You have the Levites there, like it's it's happening in both that they're working together. And he's saying, "Hey, let's build the wall. We're going to rebuild. These are the people and the places that you need to do this, and you have this section. Yeah, it's pretty amazing.
Eric Geiger:And though and though he was a marketplace leader, not what we would say a ministry leader, he he led in a very spiritual way. I mean, the the thread of prayer is throughout the entire book. I mean, his vision comes from a burden, and he believes God God is directing him. I mean, multiple times in the book, you see him say what the Lord had put on my heart to do. There, the the there's a. Beautiful thread of prayer throughout the book, and and and just this complete dependence on God. This belief that God was gonna God was gonna be the one who would establish reestablishes people in Jerusalem. There, there was deeply convictional spiritual leadership by Nehemiah. Which A.W. Tozer he said it's not what a man does that makes his work spiritual? It's why he does it. And Nehemiah, though he wouldn't have pastor or clergyman, he wouldn't have one of those like stickers you can go when we go to the hospital to visit someone. He wouldn't have one of those, but he was a very spiritual leader.
Joshua Johnson:Well, you mentioned there's dependency on God there, and I think that's probably where where it starts, yeah. And so, if we are dependent, I know that there's a lot of leaders. If you look at maybe the fivefold apostolic type of leaders, sometimes forget about the dependency of God, and they just go out ahead just because it's their natural bent of I'm going to go out ahead. I'm just going to go do it, and I could do it in my own strength. And you could get a lot accomplished, and you could get a lot done. How do do people actually work on that dependency and have that as a first fruits before you actually do the work?
Eric Geiger:I agree with your observation that sometimes really gifted leaders, and it can even happen. The longer we lead, we we do become more competent in our roles because the roles actually make us better over time. You know, we we get more reps, we get more experiences along the way. We're we're surrounded by amazing people that help us grow in our leadership. So if we're not careful, we can move to self-reliance or self-dependency, and and Nehemiah is a great a great challenge to the heart of a leader because he spends months in prayer, waiting for the right time before he goes to Artaxerxes, the king of Persia. You know, chapter one opens where where brothers from from Judea come and people debate whether it's his actual brother Hananiah or if it's just like his fellow you know like fellow countrymen. It doesn't really matter. He that he he he hears this report that everything is broken in Jerusalem and it just overwhelms him. And the scripture it's a really a beautiful picture. He doesn't first go to a dry erase board and map out a plan. He doesn't first do a SWOT analysis and figure out what resource allocation will be. He doesn't even he doesn't work on a pitch deck to go to Artaxerxes. He first prays to the God of Heaven and is just in the presence of God, both broken hearted for His people, but also with a belief that some kind of way God's going to keep His promise that we're going to that His people are going to move back to the land. But the first place He goes is not His earthly king Artaxerxes. He's the king of Persia. The first place He goes is the King of Kings, His His ultimate king, very convicting, you know, as a leader, because clearly Nehemiah, just like you said, is someone who's bent towards action. I mean, he he arrives in Jerusalem. He's like, let's rebuild, let's do this thing. He'd only been there a couple days, you know. He's those of us who are whatever you call it, type A or Enneagram three or Chloeric or red on the personality insights profile, whatever it is that tool you use, a lot of us leaders are that, and you can identify with Nehemiah. You clearly get the sense he's that, but he doesn't. That's not his first. That's not where he first goes. He first goes and spends time in the presence of God, and receives vision from God. That's his first action. His first action is to pray.
Joshua Johnson:And so, as he got that vision from God, one of the things that I really like about your book, you're having these these seven different rhythms. These rhythms, if you look at things, so I'll just name like you have vision and conviction and servanthood, perseverance, credibility, transformation, and resolve. A lot of that can be like anywhere. Like I'm going to be in in the business world, and these are the things that I'm going to be doing. But you you work through some of these things, and there's there's a component of it that produces character and fruit, that is something more than what you would typically see.
Eric Geiger:Yeah,
Joshua Johnson:how can we, like, even through a a typical type of leadership format transformation, start to see what is really underneath the the big picture of what leadership is looks like on the surface?
Eric Geiger:I really think that's one of the reasons that the scripture is so beautiful. Is the scripture really does when you throw yourself into the scripture, it goes to the heart of of what's really beneath the surface, not not. Only the actions or the behaviors, and and certainly you're right. Like vision, for example, I mean, you type in vision on Amazon. There's 6000 plus books that you can you can buy. There's so much written on vision, and as a leader, you've been perhaps I mean overwhelmed with the pressure that you're supposed to have a vision. You know, you you're going to sit down with someone and try to bring the person on your team, and she says or he says, "What's your vision? Or you're raising some funds, and someone says,"Really, tell me your vision. And so you you as a leader can have this this pressure, like I've got to come up with a vision. So you go to Amazon, you you're like, which of the 606,000 books do I start with? What I love about the scripture is there's it's not at all saying vision is is a fruit you shouldn't desire. There is there is great effectiveness in having in having a vision that you can articulate. I mean Nehemiah was able to articulate, "Come, let us rebuild the wall, and it was a real simple, clear vision, but when you read the scripture, you you get beneath the surface and you see that that the vision was the fruit. That there was a lot of hard work that took place beneath the surface before he got to this really clear vision. And if, as a leader, you feel this pressure to just come up with the vision, if you go straight to a whiteboard session or you go straight to some. You're just going to do a a a search of a whole bunch of websites and copy down 17 vision statements, and then rework it into one that you feel like is more yours. If that's where you begin, you don't really have your own vision. You have a borrowed vision, and you're not going to treat a borrowed vision very well. Like when I rent a car, I I confess that I don't treat the car with the same care that I I treat one that that is that I own. You know, and so a borrowed vision is not best for you as a leader. It's not best for the people that you serve. So the scripture in Nehemiah helps you get down beneath the surface to what really creates vision.
Joshua Johnson:What are the things that you found in Nehemiah that create that vision?
Eric Geiger:Yeah, vision is the intermingling roots of burden and belief, and at least that's what I find in Nehemiah chapter one. So the fruit on the surface is vision. It's awesome, but the the roots beneath the surface are burden and belief. So, if you don't have a burden, if you're just photocopying somebody else's vision, you will so easily change directions when you have pushback or you have challenges. And so, if you skip over burden to get the vision, you've basically borrowed somebody else's. So, the the the the intermingling root of burden for Nehemiah was God's people are in disgrace. This this should not be. The wall is down in Jerusalem. People are in in in fear of their lives. Come on, Jerusalem's supposed to be the city of God. This is supposed to be the the city that that blesses the nations. We're not we're not blessing the other nations, we're a laughing stock among the nations. This is not how it should be. This should not be burden. And then yet he had belief. You see this in his prayer in chapter one, where God, I know just like you kept your promise that you would remove people from the land when they committed themselves to idols instead of you. I believe you're going to bring your people back. I believe that you can. I believe that you can do this, and you've put this in my heart to do. So he had a sense of we must repair the wall, and we can repair the wall. So it's the it's the it's the bringing together of of both of those, and oftentimes you'll see a leader with one of those. So if you have burden, but you don't have belief, you are going to lead in a in a demoralizing way because you're only going to talk about what's broken. And I've seen leaders lead that way. There, there's no optimism. There's no there's no sense of hope of here's what can be. It's just always lament. It's just always what's wrong. Always what's Broken, and you, you really you will not attract a team around you if you if you only lead that. It's hopeless leadership. But then there's others that go just to you know this really sticky, compelling. Let's do this. Let's do this, and they don't build a sense of burden beneath the surface. And you you won't you'll you'll have apathetic leadership essentially because there there won't be a holy why beneath the surface that drives you, so vision requires both burden and belief.
Joshua Johnson:That's really good. If I look at the story of Nehemiah, it's like okay, he got the vision from God. He was prayed. He got this vision. Then he tells the people, hey, we're going to rebuild the wall, and he's going to let's do this and that, and everybody is on board. There seemed to be a high trust in Nehemiah and what God was saying. You know, I just saw Ryan Burgess Substack on on on Monday. He's you know religious statistician, and he was talking about the that trust. Is at an all-time low, so he's showing statistics of people not trusting others. That you know, generationally, Gen Z has the lowest trust,
Eric Geiger:right? Institutions, like I think I saw it too, and and other scholarly research on institutional trust is low, and sadly, trust in in people like me is low. You know, pastors like trust in the local church or trust in clergy is is is lower than it's ever been.
Joshua Johnson:Yeah, and that's one of the really difficult difficult spots of leadership at the moment. I think is now you actually have to build trust before casting vision. So in a in a like time that we're living in when trust is low in institutions and leaders, how how do we go about something to build trust to cast vision and not just cast vision without the trust?
Eric Geiger:I appreciate the question so much. Credibility is absolutely essential. You know, Aristotle when he talked about communication said there's there's three essentials: pathos, ethos, and logos. And logos is logic. So if you're going to cast a vision, it's got to it's got to make sense to people. Pathos is passion. I mean, you got to you got to have a fire deep within your bones as you share. But ethos is credibility, and the challenging reality about credibility is, if my vision talks not awesome, I can quickly ramp up logos and pathos, but I can't quickly ramp up ramp up ethos. Credibility you can't just it's not grown quickly, and so it's one of the the reasons that tenure for a leader is is is an asset, you know, being in in the same place, loving people for a consistent period of time, leading them through one challenging season gives you more credibility to lead them through the next challenging season. Nehemiah must have had credibility when he arrived because you're right. People did say, "Let's let's jump on board and and and do this. He was the cupbearer. People can make it feel like it's a menial role, but it's really like a chief of staff. So he was the chief of staff for for Persia, and then clearly, people probably were like, "Wow, this guy left a posh gig in the palace to come work on a broken wall. So his commitment added credibility. So your love for the people can add credibility. Your commitment can add to your credibility, but you definitely got to watch your character, right? That's, I mean, if you don't have, if you don't have character, you're not going to have credibility. Integrity is essential for for credibility, people want to know that they can trust their leaders.
Joshua Johnson:What does that look like as now vision has started to happen, work has has started. So in in leadership, what is building that credibility and that character? How do we go about it? I mean, maybe through maybe it's through the servanthood aspect of of what you're saying, and seeing people knowing their roles. But where do you see it come in within the leadership, especially in the structure that you're using with Nehemiah?
Eric Geiger:And we're kind of mixing together different fruits here, which is great because I mean it's not like the the book of Nehemiah is set up like chapter one is this and chapter two is that so this is great but there's personal credibility and professional credibility so personal credibility thinks really about your character and Nehemiah we just can tell as we read the scripture this was a man who sought, who sought after God's heart. So right, right away in chapter one, when he hears the wall is is broken, that's where he goes. And so he's someone who is in time, spends time with God, so God can grow his character. And then you see in the very last chapter of the book, chapter 13, when everything falls apart, he prays multiple times, so he goes back to God. So he's clearly someone who spends time with God. So God's growing his character. I'd say that's personal credibility. People know that he follows after God, that God's forming him into the image of God. But then there's also professional credibility. Nehemiah was good at what he did. I mean, he was real. He was really skilled. He he was able to design a plan, the the coordination in chapter three of lining all of those people along the wall, the the the ability to pivot when they and change some tactics when people are threatening to attack and say half of you are going to work while half of you are armed. I mean, he was really good at his job, you know, and and so that's the professional credibility. Personal credibility is I believe you, I believe who you say you are, and then professional credibility is I believe you can lead us where you're saying you can lead us. And Nehemiah had both, and as leaders, we need to grow. Both, we need to to grow in our our personal credibility, and that comes from from the Lord forming us. But we should be good at our jobs. You know, we should work hard at whatever it is that we've that we've signed up for, and and grow in our our craft, grow in our discipline, and because that our people can tell they care, they work hard. They're committed to this, and so that adds credibility as well.
Joshua Johnson:When we're starting out, we have this vision. You want to say in your book, "We want fruit that lasts. So leadership that produces fruit that lasts. What is the fruit? Do we see it right away, the beginning, that this is the fruit that we're building towards, or does the fruit come through the process? Like, and then we go, oh, this is what the fruit looks like. What is the fruit in the kingdom that we're after?
Eric Geiger:There's multiple layers to that, you know. So, like, I'm I'm leading right now through raising funds to for to launch new congregations and facilities, and so the fruit of that is going to be, we're going to have facilities, but ultimately that's not the fruit of of spiritual leadership, right? We're looking for some some kingdom fruit that's that's really different. If I had to describe what fruit is and what we do, those of us who are ministry leaders, I think of the Apostle Paul saying, I don't need to write, I don't need somebody to write letters of recommendation for me. You are our letters of recommendation. You show that that this ministry is from the Spirit of God because your life has been changed. So ultimately, the fruit of what, if you're a ministry leader, the fruit of what we're going after is people's lives changed by the by the grace the grace of Jesus. Then, if you're talking about the fruit of the individual leader, then that's where I'm saying that we see Nehemiah have vision and perseverance, and and and the and it's not I I'm not calling it I'm not equated to fruit of the spirit. But when you look at an individual, the individual has the fruit of the
spirit:love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. So there's there's an aspect of fruit, but then the apostle Paul says, "Here's what
a fruitful ministry is:change lives. Right. So there's there's fruit of the spirit. There's fruit of a ministry where there's changed lives. Now surely there's there's overlap there. Changed lives are going to be people who display the fruit of the spirit.
Joshua Johnson:That helps a leader know, hey, this is what we're building towards. This is where we're going. That I think sometimes we get caught up in something of like, hey, you're gonna raise some money for some facilities. We got the money. We're done. Like that's it. Like that's the fruit. But then it actually then is transformation, change lives because the facilities are there. No, you got.
Eric Geiger:We have to be careful. I have to be careful that we don't equate the tools with the fruit. You know, like a facility is a tool, and there's a lot of work to raise money to buy one or build one, but let's not let's not equate the tool with the end result of what we want in people's lives. You know, it's a tool. That's it. It's a tool.
Joshua Johnson:And Nehemiah gives people tools or says,"Hey, use what you have as your tool to build the wall. Sometimes when I think that I'm going to equip, I'm going to give somebody a tool. I'm basically I have one tool that I'm going to give, and it's just just that. But Nehemiah basically has people using lots of different tools. How do leaders equip well by giving different tools?
Eric Geiger:You have to know the people. So know know the people that you're leading, so you know their strengths and their weaknesses. Know know the team that you're leading, and the resources that that the team needs so they can they can thrive, and then helping people identify what what they already have received from God, the tools that they already have from Him. You know, so some of the tools are are I know it's an illustration here, but some of the tools are are the the gifts the person's already received from God? We want to help the person understand who they are, and and man, you're so gifted for this. Some of the tools, again, illustratively, might be you know resources to to accomplish what we've brought somebody on the team to do, or authority to accomplish what we've invited somebody to do. You know, I mean, Nehemiah had a sense of his own the own tools that he needed because when he went to Artaxerxes, he's like,"I need letters so that I can get timber. I need to be gone this amount of time. I need this level of authority. I mean, he was he was he was clear on what he needed. You know,
Joshua Johnson:clarity is is definitely kindness. I know that as as as a team at our church, as we're trying to to figure out how to lead, one of the things that we've really been working on is clarity, because clarity is is kindness.
Eric Geiger:Are you looking at clarity like in terms of your strategy, or clarity in terms of your doctrines and what you believe?
Joshua Johnson:More in this in strategy of where we're going and. And who we are, and I do agree with
Eric Geiger:you. Clarity is kindness. I know that lots of people have used that phrase. That's a true phrase, and it's a gift too. Clarity is a gift because you you then aren't tempted to chase after a whole lot of things. You know, you know this is exactly where we're where we're going right now.
Joshua Johnson:I think we've seen a lot of toppling recently, not because roots haven't gone deep, and that's part of it. The other part of it is it's been a really difficult cultural season, and people are like acting out in ways that are just not appropriate through the the stress and the anxiety of a really difficult season, and then you know, things topple over. How do we persevere through difficult times and perseverance that grow deeper roots and not help us topple over?
Eric Geiger:Well, in the Nehemiah's Leadership Journal, there's there's a chapter to me that stands out that's really inspiring for perseverance, and it's when people are trying to these enemies that surround him. I mean, there's other nations that surround Nehemiah, and they all gang up on Nehemiah. They're trying to get him to come to a meeting. He's like, "No, I'm staying on the wall. They're trying to threaten him with just taunts, making fun of all the people, and then they actually threaten physical violence against him. And in that that chapter, he he says two statements about fighting, and they're they're beautiful, but they're also a bit of a paradox. In one in one statement, he tells the people fight, fight for your lives, your wives, your children, fight for your lives, and then in another statement, he says, "Our God is fighting for us. So, to me, perseverance is fighting, but but you can also rest that He's the one who's fighting for you. Fight, but you can rest that you aren't fighting alone. That he's ultimately, he's got your back. He's your rear guard. Greater is he that's in you than he that's in the world. And you can you can fight because you're not fighting alone because he's fighting for you. C.S. Lewis is the one who said that Christianity is a fighting religion. That we're we're the people who realize something's gone wrong with this world, and by God's grace, we're gonna fight. We're gonna fight it. We're gonna try to fix things. We're gonna try to make things right. But we're not fighting alone because we have a Savior King who fought who fought for us.
Joshua Johnson:What are we fighting?
Eric Geiger:Well, I mean, if you, I'm just quoting scripture in my head. I mean, Ephesians six would say it's not flesh and blood that we're fighting. You know, it's the it's the principalities. It's the it's the spiritual warfare that we're fighting, but there's I mean I'm fighting discouragement, I'm fighting apathy, I'm fighting sin in my own life. You know, John Owen was the one who famously said, "Be killing sin, or sin's going to be killing you. You know, some some are always looking for a fight. Just be sure you're fighting the right the right things, you know. Fight your sin. Fight your pride. Fight discouragement. Don't don't don't be trying to fight people. You know. Don't don't don't go pick the wrong fight. You know. Fight fight the things that will take you out as a leader. That's what you should fight.
Joshua Johnson:How do we help people fight in an age of of cynicism that wants to basically take a sledgehammer to everything and then tear it all down. So how do you how do you help people fight in the in the right way?
Eric Geiger:Yeah, I mean, I yeah, I wouldn't want someone to hear this and be like, "Oh, sweet, things are broken. I I'm just supposed to go blast everybody. I gotta I gotta be someone who fights again. Fight the things that destroy you. You're be killing sin, or sin will be killing you. Don't don't be like the people I'm teaching through the book of Numbers right now. So the don't be like the it's crazy a whole generation in the in the wilderness who they unite on fighting against Moses and Aaron. They unite on complaining against God. They unite on being negative about God rescuing them from slavery and and I mean we don't want manna we want meat and and then God finally says okay you you keep saying you don't want me you keep saying that you would rather have the Egyptians lead you than me okay you can have what you want you can you don't you can have life without me and they all but Joshua and Caleb the entire first generation dies in the wilderness. It's insane the thing. So surely I'm not trying to get people to be that kind of fighter who complains and is bitter and and wants to destroy. No, fight things that can destroy you. Don't fight to destroy something else.
Joshua Johnson:I mean that takes some discernment. Yes, in in leadership. What does it look like to to build discernment within in teams and and people, so that we can really be wise about where we're headed?
Eric Geiger:It is one of the gifts of leading for a sustained period of time, and it's also one of the gifts of being a Christian for a sustained period of time. the The longer you follow. The more you recognize His voice, the the longer you you follow Him, the more you can look back at His faithfulness, and you can look back at what He's taught you in previous seasons. You know, so it's it's one reason that being His is essentially an unfair advantage. You know, because we didn't earn it; it's it's just his grace, and then it's also a reminder, like you opened with, to be in community so that you can receive wisdom from other people. That you don't have to you don't have to lead by yourself. You know, like speaking to Moses in the wilderness. I mean, after after after the people were complaining about having not having enough, not having something other than manna, Moses goes to God and is like,"Kill me now! I I do not want to lead these people anymore. I didn't birth them. I'm not their mom. I'm not their dad. This is crazy. I don't want to do this anymore. And God says, "I'm going to raise up 70 others who will carry the burden alongside you. And so now in the New Testament, you know, we we're not none of us are Moses. Christ was the better Moses. We're not the super leader. We we don't have to we don't have to live with that burden. We can be in community with other people who who carry the burden with us.
Joshua Johnson:If you can go back, think of yourself at the beginning of your leadership journey. Is there something that you wish that you would have implemented or known at the beginning of your journey that you you have found out?
Eric Geiger:Man, I I made so many mistakes as a young leader, and I'm I'm really thankful for the opportunity to make mistakes. You know, so it's why I believe investing in young leaders. It's great to learn some of the mistakes early, you know, and I'm thankful that people gave me a shot to lead really, really early. One of the painful lessons for me was was the never ending burden of leadership and some kind of way thinking that I could finish, I could I could have a week where I did everything I would, and then like go home be like I did it all, and just that could could leads to I mean burnout because there's no way there's it's never over it's never over there's always someone else to encourage there's always another decision that needs to be made there's always something else you want to work on most of us leaders don't have a problem with not having a burden, we have a problem with narrowing the focus of the burdens that we receive, and so it took me, it took me, it took me a bit to learn that. You know, it took me a bit to learn. I have a very gracious wife, but early in in marriage, I, I, at times put leadership in other environments, as more important than leading in our home, and and that was that was early marriage, and you know, like a year and a half, and then she confronted me and in a beautiful way, and and since then I have, and she would say this, and my daughters would say this. I haven't neglected my my family, and have prioritized them over leadership roles, which which some a wise mentor told me. He said, "Eric, if you if you lose your ministry, you just lose your ministry. But if you lose your marriage, you lose your marriage and your ministry. And so, the most important meeting you're going to lead this week is the one around the kitchen table. The most important relationships you're going to have this week are the ones in your own home-that's the most important congregation that you shepherd. You know,
Joshua Johnson:as someone who says that, hey, it's never over and you can't finish it. I think it goes back into our our perseverance type of conversation. Is how do you not get overwhelmed so much and be caught in the undertow of that overwhelm?
Eric Geiger:I mean, I I can't say that I've mastered that yet. I'm still I'm still in process on that one. There there are times where I will be driving home, and I'll see the the the the guy on the side the road who's got a sign and he's like advertising a furniture store or a new pizza place and he's like flipping the sign, and I thought, man, I want that job. I, I want to quit the job I'm doing right now, and I want that job because I bet he goes home and he never brings the sign with him. He goes home and his work stays with. I want that job. The reality is, if you're a leader, you may get like I've told that to Kay, my wife, and she's like, "Baby, you would you would hate that job. You would do it for like three three days, and then you would bring the sign home, and you'd be working on new moves with the sign. And I love that about you, baby. I love that you you have that that internal grit or drive, whatever you call it. And and leaders have that, so it's not about killing it; it's about directing it, because part of it's how God, how God made us. I I overwhelmed seasons I view as a gift, and but this took time for me to learn this, because if I'm overwhelmed, it means that on the other side of being overwhelmed, there's going to be some great fruit. Now I need to with wisdom now. Navigate this season of being overwhelmed, but being overwhelmed causes me to pray more. Being overwhelmed causes me to learn new skills, causes me to actually simplify my my life and my calendar and evaluate what's most fruitful, what's least fruitful that I should I should get get out of my life or off of my calendar. And so it's like when you when you when you work out the gym, if you don't put more weight on the bar than you did three months ago, you're not going to grow. You have to actually have your muscles overwhelmed, and the same is true in leadership. For you to to grow as a leader, there needs to be being overwhelmed as part of it. There needs to be seasons of overwhelmment. Now, the trick is in the gym to put more weight on the bar, but not so much weight that you get crushed. And the same is true in leadership. It's it's to take on some more, but not so much more that you get crushed.
Joshua Johnson:Got to bring your spotter with you too.
Eric Geiger:Yeah, you need a spotter.
Joshua Johnson:100% That's right. Oftentimes, I see leaders struggle with distraction from who they are, their identity in Christ, what God has called them, whatever assignment they that God has given them, and then like where they're going, so they should be focused here. But there are some things that seem really good, like good opportunities and things that may actually then distract you from the assignment. How do you not get pulled in so many different directions as a leader and saying, "Okay, I know how God has made me. I know where He has placed me. I know the assignment that He has given me. A
Eric Geiger:lot of people have pointed out Nehemiah in that regard. I'm I'm on I'm doing a great work. I cannot come down. Just his really deliberate focus, and I do agree with you that for some leaders that's challenging because they they get excited about multiple multitude of things. It it really it really comes down to what we talked about early when it when you receive a vision if it's connected to a burden, you can't imagine not doing this. And so, once you have that burden, you are then able to say no to other things because this thing, this must happen. If you don't have that, it's going to be really hard to say no to other things. And so, if you have that, it's so much easier to say no to really good opportunities because even though it's a good opportunity, you've heard from the Lord. You know, no, this is what we must
Joshua Johnson:do. Do you have a story from your ministry, your life there to start to really say what does this look like in practicalities outside of the Nehemiah story, but maybe in a in a current day story.
Eric Geiger:I mean, I got so many of them. Some of them are messy. You know, they're all actually they're all messy. We we're two and a half years into launching a young adult gathering that that meets on Thursday nights, and I I teach at it 35 times a year. It's a I love it so much. I love our young adult community so much. It it began as a burden for young adults in our in our church, but also in our community. And it was it wasn't like an overnight whiteboard session. It it was I kept hearing from young adults that in our church is is is a large church with bunch of services and different congregations. And I would hear, I know there's a whole bunch of young adults at our church, but I just don't know like what service do they go to? Like they they they were it seemed like they were so spread out among you know different services, and so that that was part of it. Also, I had I had gone on a trip to Israel and just really spending time with the Lord. Sense that the next season of my life I was going to be a bit of a father figure, which was hard for me to embrace because I still I'm now 50, but you know this was several years ago. I'm like, no, I'm still the older brother. I'm not. I'm not anybody's dad, you know. But I sensed that that the Lord was moving me into that season, and then actually young adults in our church kind of spoke that into me. You know, Eric, that talk you gave me was the sex talk my dad never gave, or Eric, this this message? It was. I feel like you're like a spiritual father to me. Think things like that, and it was really God using people within our own community to to speak that into me. So the long, the short story of this long introduction is is I I went to several of our staff and and believed we we need to start a Thursday night gathering for young adults, but I want to teach at it, so it's going to be the first service of the weekend because it's I don't have time to prepare a whole nother message, so everything's going to be focused for young adults. But the message, like it's not like we're trying to be super cool. I'm going to be Pastor Eric, and I just believe that many of them want a father figure and and want the truth and want the scripture not dumbed down for them at all. But like this is what the scripture says. Let's walk through it. So we launched that in January of 20. We did all 24, all of 25, and yeah, January 24. And so. It's been two and a half years. We've now we've we've actually expanded it to four different locations because we outgrew. We'll have anywhere between 3030 500 young adults every Thursday night. So it's just it's just been insane, really, what's happened. But it did not begin with let's do a cool service for young adults. It began with a burden to connect young adults together, and then when it comes to perseverance, man, it's changed my it's changed my whole week. I mean, I teach every Thursday night, so it's it's a it's a lift. You know, it's it's work. It has totally met saying no to a whole lot of things, so that I can say yes to this over and over again, and it's meant saying no to no to other things that we would want to do as a church, so that we could resource this, so that we could build a team, a staff team that focuses on our Thursday night service and our in our young adult community. So it's it it wasn't only this beautiful vision; it was also a lot of work and a lot of discipline to to stay focused on it.
Joshua Johnson:As you heard that word, that you can be a spiritual father, and that spiritual father is what you need in this season. How has that changed your leadership?
Eric Geiger:In small ways, but consistently as a thread throughout. I think it's changed my tone with people. You know, I think it's changed even illustrations that I use when I communicate. It's definitely changed my affection towards people. You know, a fatherly affection is different than a than a brotherly affection. You know, I think it comes out frequently without me telling myself, "Hey, wear the father hat. You know, it just, it just, it comes out because that's an identity that that the Lord's given me for this season. You know, and I don't feel like I deserve to be. I got two daughters who I love so much. It's not like I, it's not like I'm, you know, trying to actually have more physical kids. You know, it's just, it's just when it comes to spiritual leadership, it's the metaphor, and there there is a parenting metaphor in Scripture when it comes to being being being a shepherd, right?
Joshua Johnson:Yeah, yeah, and we need it, and we need more spiritual fathers and mothers. We really really need them.
Eric Geiger:Yeah.
Joshua Johnson:Um. If you can, yeah, talk to the people who pick up the Rooted Leader and and read this book. What hope do you have for this book and the people who read it.
Eric Geiger:In many ways, I hope it will be liberating. That the the words vision, credibility, perseverance won't feel super daunting for you as a leader, but will be seen as oh, this is beautiful fruit. Let me focus on the roots beneath the surface. I, I, my hope is that you would walk away as a more equipped leader, that you would not only be inspired, but there's tools offered throughout the book that I think can really help you. And I just want you to be helped as a leader.
Joshua Johnson:Yeah, it's good. Couple quick questions I like to ask here at the end. One, if you go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give?
Eric Geiger:Enjoy it more. Like slow down, look around, enjoy it more. Enjoy the seasons more.
Joshua Johnson:Yeah, yeah. Wouldn't that be nice if we could like do the hard work and keep going, but then actually pay attention and notice what's around you? And yeah, I
Eric Geiger:and and I think I'm better than I was, but I'm still not where I want to be in that regard.
Joshua Johnson:Yeah,
Eric Geiger:yeah,
Joshua Johnson:yeah. Anything you've been reading or watching lately you could recommend?
Eric Geiger:Well, we're filming this during the NBA Finals, so I've been watching a little bit of a little bit of hoops, which has been great because I'm teaching through the Book of Numbers. I just have been reading so much in the Book of Numbers. I have I have some books mapped out to read over study break, but there's really other than than the book of numbers that I have, I've just been reading a lot of commentaries and and you know books about the book of numbers.
Joshua Johnson:Well, Eric, the rooted leader will be available anywhere books are sold. People could go and get that. It's a great great book, and I love that you actually go deep into the roots, to have a rooted system that is not just those those daunting leadership words, but is something that can build the the character and the competence to to help leaders with others actually lead well and see fruit that remains and fruit that lasts, so it's fantastic. Is there anywhere else that you'd like to point people to? How can they connect with you? What you're doing? I
Eric Geiger:occasionally will will release a leadership blog on EricGeiger.com, and then there's the books are linked there as well. So EricGeiger.com.
Joshua Johnson:Perfect, Eric. Thank you. It was a fantastic conversation. Really loved digging deep into leadership with you, so thank you. I enjoyed
Eric Geiger:it. Thanks so much for having me.
Unknown:Yeah.
