The Open Talent Report
Listen to Connor Heaney discuss all things open talent with industry experts. In each episode Connor speaks with legal, talent and leadership experts. Connor is the managing director of CXC EMEA a contingent workforce management company. Connor has a particular interest in the future of work in the open talent sector.
The Open Talent Report
Ep. #68 | What made Israel a Startup Nation? - Raz Chorev (CWS Israel)
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On this episode of The Open Talent Report, Connor Heaney talks to Raz Chorev, CEO of CWS Israel, contingent workforce services company. Raz embodies the Remote Work lifestyle, being and having a truely global workforce in CWS Israel.
During the episode Connor & Raz discuss:
- Raz Chorev Story
- Israel - Entrepreneurial Haven
- Talent Scarcity - How to solve it?
- Remote work - cure or a curse
- Deskless & Knowledge Workers
- Compliance in Israel
- Foreign workers in Israel
- Automation & Job Displacement
- Bias in ChatGPT
- Future of Work Predictions
Connect with Raz: https://www.linkedin.com/in/razchorev/
Connect with Connor: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hrmconnorheaney/
Hello and welcome to the Open Talent Report. This is the podcast where we discuss the emerging trends in labor law, employment law, independent work, and the gig economy, which many organizations are wrestling with due to the growth of the open talent and gig economy. I'm your host, Conor Heaney. When I'm not presenting the podcast, I'm the MD at CXC Global, EMEA, which compliantly connects talent and opportunity. I first had the opportunity to meet Raz when I joined uh TXC Global about eight years ago. We were uh colleagues for a number of years, and I've have to say I've always enjoyed Raz's company. He's he's built a phenomenal business. He's a great guy with a great story, and I really can't wait to delve into it further. So, Raz, a warm welcome to the show. How are you doing, Mitt?
SPEAKER_02Thank you very much. It made me blush. Lucky it's a podcast.
SPEAKER_00So, Raz, warm welcome too, Mate. Well, what is your story, Raz? Because you've got a, in my view, a fascinating story. I'm sure listeners will feel the same. You, you know, you've lived that immigrant journey, you've gone through hardship, you've went pain, you've gone through pain, I guess. Um, would you mind just telling us how you became the the CEO and founder of CWS Israel, but also what was your journey from from Israel to Australia um along the way?
SPEAKER_02Okay, uh, great question. Um, I have left Israel when I was 25 years old. I um migrated to Australia um as a backpacker and decided to stay in this great country. Uh one thing led to another, and I found myself uh working for CXC Global uh in the uh as a global marketing director. Um and in 2015 I was asked to open up uh one of the entities for CXE in Israel. Uh it was at the time the 63rd country for CXE Global, which I happily obliged. Um and that uh company didn't really do much, it was an entity, it served a purpose at the time, but um in 2018 um I had an opportunity to uh acquire the business from CXE, and I opened it up to the greater um the greater world. Um I rebranded it to become to be CWS Israel, continued workforce services in Israel, and uh one thing led to another, uh COVID um came and people worked from home. Um I worked from home uh and expanded exponentially. We've actually uh grew over the last four years um threefold every year, which you know it's uh yeah, it's been a phenomenal ride, and we're still riding it. So it's um yeah, yeah, we we can't complain. Um last year we brought in a CFO. Um at the end of the year we brought in a chief operating officer, uh, who's also my uh my partner, and we became a uh we're on a uh hiring spree at the moment um because we we just can't handle uh the work that we have.
SPEAKER_00Wow, that that's uh that that's a that's a high-class problem. Raz, and I never thought to ask this before, but I but I think you're our first um uh first guest that heals from uh from Israel originally. I know you're nausea now and you're you're very proud of your journey, but like Raz, in your view, I I read this book years ago about Israel called Startup Nation. What what is it about Israel that that makes it such an entrepreneurial country and why why it's why why do you think in your view it it's fostered so many entrepreneurs like yourself, Braz?
SPEAKER_02Israel is a is a melting pot for uh people from Jewish people um from every corner of the world, uh which means the only thing that uh connects them is their religion, but there's no cultural background, there's no um uh every uh every country brings their own culture. So when people from Eastern Europe and Northern Africa and uh China and United States, they all get together, and or Russia and you know the the former Soviet Union all get together and they don't even have a common language, we tend to uh find our own path or carve our own path to get to to get somewhere. Um it's a land of it's a very young land of immigrant. Uh it's based on immigration from uh all around the world. Immigrants just have to make do with you know what whatever they they whatever they have. So, you know, in the early 90s, um after the pre-stroika, which is you know the liberation or the uh or the the fall of the Burn Bin War, um people from the Soviet, the former Soviet Union came to Israel. There were about a million uh new immigrants that came in. The country was not ready for them. Um the country at the time had five million in in total, so it's about 20%, 20% increase uh on the total population. It's a it's a major burden on the country, and those immigrants had to fend for themselves. Um they had to find something to do. Many of them were scientists, um and you know, the the technological revolution that happened in the 90s didn't pass Israel. Um and there's there's a whole background story about the early or the late 70s, early 80s with uh private equity that started uh sprouting in Israel. Um people, you know, real money uh started flowing into Israel and backing up those uh early ventures that then became startups. Um and you know that's that's how the story began. It's probably because of that melting pot and its necessities, the mother of invention, and that's exactly what happened.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's a it's an amazing country, Raz. To your point, it's it's such a young country, you know. I think uh 48 uh really is when Israel got off the ground proper from from memory, but even the way even the way Israel is has has made itself sustainable, right? From from you know, the I I understand even just to build water, you know, transport water from different villages, towns, and cities to each other, because essentially Israel was a desert, uh Ras, but it's become an oasis in the desert, is is is the way I best understand it.
SPEAKER_02That's exactly what it is. Uh it it was a desert. It was the uh one of the founding fathers of Israel, David Ben Gurion, um, who set his mission to um uh make the the desert bloom, that's in his words, um, and they've done everything in their powers to to you know find water, um find water where wherever they can and make the desert bloom. And and that's how the invention of uh drip irrigation came into play. Um they found as little water as they uh as they found, they made made it last for as long as possible. So uh yeah, it it was a desert. Uh there is still uh two-thirds of the country is still desert, but it's it's uh flourishing.
SPEAKER_00It's amazing, Raz. And um we'll we'll move on from Israel in the second, but I want to come back to Israel, uh Raz, because I think it's relevant to your business um and relevant for enterprises or smaller companies that want to hire people in Israel. But let's come back to that and let's look, Raz, if we can, at your company and the uh CWS Israel. And what what are the typical problems and challenges that you solve for on behalf of your customers, Raz, just for the benefit of our audience?
SPEAKER_02Um I think that the major issue that we we see time and time again is the culture clash between the Israeli culture and the um uh Western European uh sort of culture. Um people who don't understand the Middle East sort of uh the brushness or the uh how did we say the the the brushness or the directness of Israelis find it sometimes offensive um even though there's no there's no offense meant, but there's it's very direct. Uh the people in Israel have uh very sh because of the situation in Israel, I I I would imagine where every day is a new day and the people are thankful for that new day because you don't know what's gonna happen the next. Um people don't have time for niceties, they or for um politeness. Let's get the the approach is let's get things done and let's get things done quickly and just get to the point. And I think that is something that is uh uh very often misunderstood as being rude or impolite or too direct, but it's uh it's just part of the uh part of the culture.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's clear. And Raz, your your company, just for the avoidance of doubt, helps uh large enterprise, medium enterprise, and and smaller companies really hire the best talent in Israel um through through your your CWS Israel entity and your payroll capability. Um are you seeing a lot of interest in in overseas hiring, um hiring workers remotely uh because of the great talent in IT and other sectors that exist in Israel?
SPEAKER_02Absolutely. There's um there's huge demand at the moment uh to hire local talent. The local talent is actually really talented, um, and they're a lot cheaper than um their counterparts in other parts uh other parts of the world. Um and there's a lot of there's actually uh there's too many um people in the tech sector at the moment in Israel that there's not enough work for them. So they they're going for uh cheaper rates or they move overseas. Uh they move to the States or they move to uh the UK or Germany and they found their place there. So if they can, and that's what happened, you know, during uh 2020, 2021, where people couldn't really move uh move around the world freely, um the companies from outside Israel found their the talent in Israel and hired them there.
SPEAKER_00It's uh I I I love this remote working boom, particularly for the reasons you mentioned, Raz. It affords access to talent that you can't get in your home market. So if you're like USA company and you're you're sort of struggling to hire developers, you can go, well, actually, I'll go to Israel and get those folks and they can work remotely there. And also there's that cost arbitrage or labour arbitrage piece that you mentioned too, Raz, which I think is is really, really uh attractive for big companies. The other thing I was thinking about, Raz, and I'd love to get your take on it. So in most of the Western economies at the moment, if you think of the United States, the United Kingdom, Ireland, Germany, Netherlands, just sort of old school economies, if you like, uh, that have been very successful over the years, pretty much all those economies are facing a talent crisis, a talent scarcity crisis. So USA is, I think, almost at full employment, or at least as close to it as possible. I think it's the fullest employment market since 1969. So trying to do some good maths here over 50 years ago. UK is at uh full employment. Ireland is as close to full employment as can be. Same with Germany, same as the Netherlands. Yet most companies are still hiring, if you exclude the tech sector briefly, and they'll come back, I'm sure, are hiring like bloody billio, right? They're hiring like gangbusters, but they can't get the talent they need. Have you any thoughts, um, Raz on where this talent scarcity crisis has come from and potentially what can be done to solve that particular problem or challenge? Any thoughts on that, mate?
SPEAKER_02Um, being a true Israeli, I'll be a contrarian in this regard as well. Um I hear I hear all about the talent scarcity, and I don't think it's that's the real issue. I think um companies are hiring left, right, and center because they cannot keep the talent that they have. Um they cannot keep the talent because uh there is no loyalty to their employees and the employees leave. If if an employee comes and feels that he's a resource, they will not last. They will just get up and go. Um no one wants to feel like a resource and the the war for talent is not really a war for talent, it's a a war for loyalty. It's you know, the old school uh ethos when you know you had a job for life, people look after you. When you started with a uh with a workplace, you knew everyone in that workplace, everybody knew you. Um you were part of a family, you're part of a team. At the moment, uh I get people, uh I hear from from people that they as soon as they are hired, they're looking for the next gig or the next role. As soon as they get the job, and they just swap, you know, move from one one company to another, and they don't feel they don't feel connected to any of them. Because they are just a resource. And people just got grew disillusioned from the the uh their wish to become a part of something bigger, to be you know, to uh connect to the company's vision. That company vision was a um probably you know uh an afterthought or something that was decided as a committee, and you you read some company's visions and mission statements, and you think there's nothing behind it, it's not real. So people want to be to feel like they belong, they they want that uh family feeling, and if they don't see it and they don't feel it, uh they move on.
SPEAKER_00I like I like that contrarian approach, Raz. I think that this is this is what I love about the show because I get so many different opinions, and I think you're the first to put it in such terms. We we did discuss a number of times on the show this whole great resignation concept, right, that was being put out by Wall Street Journal, Bloomberg Economist, right? But we we had a really interesting lady on the show called Anita Letting. We've had her on twice now, Russ, but basically she was saying that great resignation only existed in USA, right? If you look at all the other markets, it basically remained the same, right? But I think you're I actually think you're on to something, right? About that loyalty piece about people need a mission to get behind and they they want to feel like they're part of something and that they're meaningful. So I guess my my next question, Raz, if you accept uh what what you've said is how how can we create an environment in your view that that gives people what they need, right, in that respect. Any any thoughts? Have you seen anything in your own company or other companies that can can sort of bring people together and keep them in the organization so you're not having to go and replace them every time they get you know a 10 grand or five grand or 50 grand uh pay increase or offer elsewhere?
SPEAKER_02I'm sure you've heard it before. People never leave for five grand, they leave because they uh they leave it because of their manager. Yeah, every research uh that you you read uh will tell you the same thing. People don't move for just you know for another five grand or ten grand. Uh if it's a significant increase, of course, and if it's an opportunity that comes once in a lifetime, they'll they'll move. But mostly if they if they connect it to the mission and the vision of their their company, um they will say they're they're not going to be swayed by uh look five grand at the a year at the end of the day will not put um you know more than a few dollars in their paycheck every month. So that's that's not the reason to go. Um what we've done um at ECWS, we created a vision and a mission that is actually part of who we are as Israelis and as um Jewish people, uh and that to bring in to bring the Israeli talent uh and make it accessible to the world. And people can get behind that. That's that's what we do, that's what we're here to do. We try to break all the geographical, political, religious barriers that exist in our everyday existence uh in Israel, and people get behind that. People, you know, when we publish um a job post, we are overwhelmed with the amount of people that you know we read your mission, we'd love to be a part of that. Gotcha. It's like it's like a non-profit or a charity organization, you know, that they have something that people can get behind.
SPEAKER_00I love I love that concept, Raz. And the the point you're making about you know, people leave poor managers. I I'm just wondering with the work from anywhere or remote revolution, has it changed some of those those heady behaviors that that co-workers or managers might have experienced? And I don't know if you remember this, Raz, um, about when you were working in an office, when when people did generally um, you know, that that sort of someone not stacking the the the dish kosher or or someone putting something disgusting in the microwave or someone um you know uh you know tapping loudly on their key keyboard, you know, all those petty infringements that can really send people insane to create toxic cultures, um, not just bullying and stuff like that, but all those things add up. Um do you think remote work has been a net benefit in terms of just getting rid of all that sort of BS?
SPEAKER_02In a way, yes. It does get um some of the toxicity of the workplace away. Uh but there's a huge butt in there. Um I feel that people are lonely having, you know, we're only employing uh, you know, our EOR solution is only for people working remotely and not in an office, and their interaction with other people is via chats or emails or sometimes a video call, it can feel very lonely. And if managers don't step up and don't include people and make them feel, you know, the warm and fuzzy when they come to work, uh these people will leave. They'll go to, you know, another remote position that will give them the same sort of thing. Uh I think it's I don't think we're gonna go back to working in an office as part, you know, some some of the research now uh claiming that by you know 2030 uh 40% of the workforce will be remote. I think that's gonna be higher than that. And that gig it's not just a gig economy because it's uh uh a short-term gig. It's you know we actually like working, you know, our own time, our own pace. Um work wherever, whenever uh I can you know, as you know uh from my own story, yes. I am talking to you now from a caravan in the middle of Victoria in Australia. Um, because I and I've got three Screens in front of me. I've got the um all the documents and everything that I need with a backdrop of the local river. It's just I I can work from anywhere, I can work anytime I want to. Um and people like that sort of thing. And the people that we employ do the same thing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. It's brilliant when it works, Raz, isn't it? And when it works well. And if you're the sort of person that can be efficient, effective, likes delegated authority, and can largely work autonomous, right? I think for those type of people, and I include myself in that, it's bloody brilliant. And uh just to describe the scene, so even though we're recording audio and we were on video before the show started, and Raz is in his camper fan store caravan with a beautiful backdrop behind him. You can hear the kookabas, I think. Are they called kookabaras, Raz, in the background?
SPEAKER_02You actually heard the cucka tos, but the yeah.
SPEAKER_00So I I was hearing them and it was absolutely magical. And it it I I think to me, your case and many other cases, um, Raz illustrate the freedom, the benefit of remote work. And I myself, Raz, have worked remotely for coming up to about 10 years, and I feel it very privileged, right? And I I sometimes I'll go into an office, sometimes I'll work from a hotel, but I feel privileged, Raz, because there's there's uh a majority of the workforce that don't have the privilege of working from anywhere, that don't have the ability, like you and I, to be efficient and effective. They're the so-called deskless workers that are maybe working in manufacturing, the army, the police, the nursing, the doctors. I suppose they need to work in a in a in an on-site physical presence. And I always feel a bit conflicted about this. I feel like I'm I'm a sort of lucky guy, if that makes sense, but maybe they're not as lucky as I am. And I find that quite conflicting. How do you feel about that, Raz? Should I just grow up and start and stop being so empathetic and sympathetic and just uh enjoy it? Or any thoughts on it?
SPEAKER_02Uh first of all, I love the fact that you are empathetic and sympathetic with other people. It's it's uh magical. You know, we have to love our fellow humans, uh, whatever choices they make. Um, we need the nurses and the doctors and the police and all the uh the first responders. Uh, we need the factory workers to go um and and produce stuff for us. Um we are knowledge workers, and as knowledge workers, it it's not luck. Uh that's a decision that we've made uh to grow in a profession that suits our skills and uh you know our lifestyle choices. Everyone makes their own choice, and that's uh that's that's ours. That gives us certain freedoms. Um on the other hand, we work around the clock, you and I. Um the fact that we can work from anywhere means that we work all the time, everywhere all the time. So there's no real break, there's no real holida uh holiday, um, we get burned out quite quickly. Which, you know, some of the other uh workers that are tied to a physical place or presence, as you said, um don't have that, or don't necessarily have that or suffer from it because they know that they go to the factory at 7 a.m. and by 3 p.m. they are out and they are free to do whatever they want outside of their work. We take our work with us everywhere we go.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that is such a good point. Yeah. I think you've really put that exceptionally well and illustrated the the the power, but the the the key the prop the potential problems with remote work when you are a knowledge worker, and you know that that burnout that you mentioned is real, and you know, I don't mind talking about it from probably about once a year, it always hits me coming up to the the December period in in Europe and UK and and Ireland, Ireland where where I live, where I'm not travelling or working remotely. Um it always hits me, and I think it's because you're on this this the spectrum of work. So, you know, I appreciate you doing a call with uh this show, recording the show. I think it's probably coming up to about 20 to 8 local time where yours uh in the evening, uh Raz in Australia. Um what time is it here? 20 to 10 in the in the morning. But your your day probably started at 7 a.m. My day started at 7 a.m. and is probably gonna run in some way to 10 p.m. tonight. And I guess that's the choice we've made. I'm not complaining about it to my earlier point. We're we're privileged, and I I certainly feel lucky, uh albeit it's a choice I've made. But the the burnout piece, Raz, like do you think we could do more to help remote workers and knowledge workers with burnout? Because particularly during the COVID times where there was less in-person meetings, I remember not having the discipline to look at my diary, and then suddenly I might have had 12 to 14 Zoom or Microsoft Teams calls back to back. And I felt I felt every day that it just went by in a jiffy, right? It was like you were on a bloody time machine and your day was just over before you even had time to think about it. I I firstly, Raz, if you don't mind sharing, uh have you experienced burnout? And and secondly, do you think there's any tools, techniques that we can do to to help people with it?
SPEAKER_02Um well, it depends who you ask, uh, whether I've had or haven't had a burnout. Um, I think I haven't because I but I'm I'm I'm an addict. So it's I wouldn't call myself a workaholic, but I I am addicted to it's I don't want to call it addiction. I want to call it commitment. I'm committed to the work I do, to my clients, to my team. Um I'm I'm committed, which means that I I have no issues working around the clock. On the other hand, one of the reasons that uh my partner and I decided to uh to buy this caravan and start traveling around is because we we were doing this at home, you know, in a full-wall environment, looking at uh you know the next door neighbor uh backyard, uh where we can do it anywhere. But doing it anywhere gives us also the flexibility of starting the day, as you said, at seven, I wish most of the time it's between five and six in the morning, and then at about nine, ten o'clock, take a break and go for a walk and go, you know, see the local sites and that sort of thing, and come back um in the afternoon, four or five, six o'clock in the afternoon or in the evening, have something to eat and start a second shift. And that takes a few hours. So all all out we're not working around the clock anymore, but we do we do take a break, and because we're on the other side of the world, we can you know we'll be online with um the US in the morning or with uh Europe in the afternoon or the evening, and everybody and nobody knows any different. Um and you when you asked about how do we meet together, this is one way of doing it. Um I know in the if you remember the old Blackberries, um there were companies in Germany, um I remember in you know maybe 15 years ago, that at 5 p.m. switched the blackberries off remotely. Yes. That's right. They just switched them off. And that was the policy. Both in Germany, in Holland, in in uh in other countries, um people made the decision that at 5 p.m. the pencil drops, the blackberries stop working, and you can go home and we do whatever you need to do with your families. My partner used to leave her laptop at work at five o'clock and go home to her kids, and that was absolutely fine. When she was working for Phillips at the time, um you know uh a Dutch uh company, um it was uh actually expected and not just accepted, but expected. At certain time you just you know switch off.
SPEAKER_00Wow. I have to say that there's a discipline, I think, to working remotely successfully, Raz. And uh I don't know if you're familiar with this guy, uh it might not be everyone's taste, but his name is Jocko Willink, and he's a retired US Navy SEAL that also has a podcast and has written a number of books in relation to um work-life balance, getting the most out of your day, seizing the day, being positive. But here's a phrase and it resonates with me right now based on that discipline piece, Raz, which is discipline equals freedom, right? And I suppose what he's saying is if you can be disciplined in your day and disciplined in what you do, then it can afford you that freedom to do what you want, right? Because you've got the basics, you've got the basics in place. And as you were describing your your ethos, I was thinking, God, this is a great way to sum it up. So discipline equals freedom. I think I I really I really like that, Raz. It really resonates with me what your story is. Um, Raz, you you you and I are bloody compliance and risk geeks, right? And one of the reasons we set up the show was to talk more about this, or talk about the new directive, RS-35, AB5, and USA. And then of course the show just grew organically to talk about workforce and future work and and all those really important things that we talk about, the rise of remote work and work from anywhere. But just on the the risk piece as as it pertains to contingent workforce and and EOR, employer of record, and AOR, what what's it looking like in Israel? Is it quite a is it quite a high-risk environment? And is it are the laws changing there, Raz? Would you just care to share some of your insights and expertise on on the risk environment there?
SPEAKER_02Um the compliance hasn't been uh a major issue in Israel. Um not because it hasn't been a focus. Uh there's the from a uh taxation compliance, um the tax office is brutal with uh so people, you know, when when the uh when the government uh organization is brutal with their you know their compliance, um nobody messes with them. So once once beaten twice shy, and when someone else gets bitten, you are twice shy as well. So from from that perspective, there's no issues. With the um uh I I wouldn't I I'd say that Israeli um the Israelis becoming more uh litigious as time goes by and they're learning a lot from the Americans uh in this regard. So when someone doesn't get their rights, um they'll sue. They don't think twice. And the legal system allows them to do so at a very minimal cost, which means that employ and because uh Israel is based on a more socialistic system and not capitalistic, uh the employee is always right. So from that perspective, uh compliance is you know isn't is a non-issue. Is a non-issue. The employee is always right, and you know, if if the employer does, you know, doesn't colour within the lines, they'll get caught out quite quickly.
SPEAKER_00Gotcha. Well that that's good to take note for our listeners. Um but it's it strikes me um that aside, Raz, that it's a very pro-business country, and also the ease of setting up a worker in Israel, you know, obviously that's what companies like like yours does, and of course there is others out there, but it it seems pretty straightforward, Raz, to get someone going out of the box over there, as as long as they're Israeli. Um is that is that fair to say, or can foreigners get get working over there relatively straightforward?
SPEAKER_02So uh I had this conversation the other day um about the the difference between a foreign employee and a local, and from in the eyes of the law, uh there's no difference. There's no difference. The although the emplo the expats or the foreign uh the foreign worker um will pay less social security, which can be um you know, they're still gonna get the same uh medical treatment, they get still gonna get the same benefits. There is absolutely no discrimination between local and uh and foreign employees if one and that's back to the socialistic culture, um everybody gets the same. So if one employee uh for example, we we have a charge that we have to explain to all of our customers. Um we charge a a fee for gifts. Um there's actually a line item in uh in every quote that we send out for gifts. It's not a big amount, it's a small amount, but it's a cultural uh expectation to receive a gift, um, not a big one, but uh twice a year, once in the Jewish the Jewish high holidays. So the Jewish New Year, which is uh somewhere around September, and Passover, which is uh around Easter time. There's twice a year people expect to get a gift from their employee. Uh employer. No, you don't have to do it. Um it's not a legal requirement. Um and you definitely you don't have to do it for everyone. But if you do it for one employee, you have to do it for everyone. It doesn't matter if they're expats or you know, foreign or or local, you still have to provide the same for every employee, otherwise, you know, you're discriminating. There's no discrimination in the social um culture.
SPEAKER_00Wow. I I that I love getting those those those little nuggets, Raz, because I think I think the typical you know mobile international mobility expert or procurement person or HR that want to get someone set up in Israel, uh, you know, that's the sort of thing that that can make the difference between a really great employee experience and a really poor one, right? And if it's the if it's customary to get that gift twice a year and you don't get it, you're probably like, why the hell am I not getting that? So I love I love those nuggets of experience and expertise, Raz. Love it. Um Raz, I I want to touch on a topic that spoken about and listened to a lot of folks on the podcast recently, and there's a lot of concern um out there around automation stroke artificial intelligence, excuse me, and its potential impact on jobs and specifically jobs displacement. Do do you share those concerns or do you do you regard automation and artificial intelligence? Of course, they're two different things, uh, as potentially forces for the good?
SPEAKER_02Um, I think look, like any other revolution, uh evolution or revolution, it's not the strongest of the species that will survive, is the most adaptable to change. That's that's the essence of it. When you have, you know, when they first uh uh created the uh um the assembly line, you know, people lost their jobs. Uh when the car or the automobile uh replaces the horse, you know, people lost their jobs, uh, but they found something else to do. They had to adapt um with automation. In certain things, it's just a matter of time. We've got uh I don't know if you've had any experience with chat GPT, but yes, um and you use that, it's a fantastic tool, it's not perfect, um it does it does uh learn as you feed it and get the most out of it, you still have to apply you know your own wits and common sense and and intelligence. So you need to know how to use it. The fact that yeah, some someone said uh you know that uh the issue with people that they don't have access to information that was in the 50s. Now stupidity hasn't hasn't been cured because of Google. Um it's just you know, you you need to choose what you search for and you'll find it, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Uh there's always, you know, when you do searches, there's confirmation bias, and you you look for something and you find uh whatever you whatever you can to justify what you were thinking about before. And that's that's the same with uh you know automation and and artificial intelligence in that that regard. Um it helps you if you wanted to help you, it will destroy your life if you let it or if you think it will.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I think that's an excellent summary. I I think this is uh quote quote quote of the day, Raz. It made me chuckle. Um, it's not like stupidity has been cured by Google. I love that. I love that. Um, but to answer answer your question, Raz. I did I did try ChatGPT um and I did find it fascinating. I asked it to build me a cash flow forecast, which is quite uh generic and broad. And I think you're right, you need to feed it the right uh info in order for it to start to work for you. And um I think it could be a pretty power powerful powerful tool um for sure. And I think that piece on on one's ability to adapt is definitely um is definitely a fair one. Um had a question though. You talked about um confirmation bias, Raz. Do you think there's a risk um of conscious or unconscious bias in tools like chat GPT? Because I assume that it's been built by the same sort of people that always build IT software, which is typically white male. Um do you think there's any risk in any inherent uh bias in in that chat GPT um function?
SPEAKER_02Uh first of all, I make the difference most of the people who build uh software is definitely not a white male. Um there will be um people from India and China um that will build most of the software um in Japan. So I don't think that that's not gonna be a um that sort of issue. They come for and I think to build such a complex AR system, you need a lot of input from uh a lot of diverse, very diverse uh workforce. Um so that's I I I'm not sure that that's uh that's a consideration regarding confirmation bias. However, um it will give you the the answers that you were looking for, which means careful what you reach for. That's exactly what it will give you. It will not be contrarian. Uh it will and if it is, you will not, you know, you'll keep looking, right?
SPEAKER_00Fair fair point, Raz. I stand corrected. Um, and there's my own biases coming through. We all have that. We all have that. I have to work hard to get those uh gone. So so Raz, I listen, I'm loving the chat. Um, want to finish if we can with a question we ask all of our guests, which is which is this, Raz. Um, the question is what is your prediction, Raz, for the future of work?
SPEAKER_02Uh for the future of work, um it's a that's a loaded question. Uh people will still work for money. Uh I think that the um the standard income uh suggestions that've been floating around um eventually will come in some way, shape, or form. It's not gonna be as widespread as some people think it may. I don't think. Um people will just find innovative way of creating an income uh and creating meaning. And if more people will focus on creating meaning, I think the income will come with it. If people are focusing on making income, they will lose the meaning and um they will lose the income with it.
SPEAKER_00Love it, love it, Raz. Well, Raz, thanks so much for coming on the show. I always enjoy our conversations over the years. I've thoroughly enjoyed this one, Raz. I think we've we've talked about adaptability, we've talked about the future, we've talked about how to solve the talent scarcity, we've talked about some of the the simple ways that workers can get set up in Israel, and we've got some some tips and tricks along the way. And it was great, Raz, to hear your story as someone that has been a successful immigrant and a successful entrepreneur uh from Israel now now in Australia. So, Raz, great, great to catch up. Where is the best place, Raz, for our audience to find you and contact you about um getting set up in Israel?
SPEAKER_02Um LinkedIn is a great way. First of all, I enjoyed this conversation immensely. Uh I was looking forward to it, as you know, for a um for a few months. We uh we've discussed it over the last few months, and um this is you know, it's everything I hoped it would be. Um so thank you for for the opportunity to uh to be on your show and uh share my little nuggets. And to find me, uh the easiest way is to look up uh cwsisrael.com or come to uh join me on LinkedIn and uh contact me on there. And yeah, that would be the easiest.
SPEAKER_00Wonderful. Well, Raz, thanks again, mate. Thoroughly enjoyed our conversation. Of course, we wish you the best in your business. We love we love partnering with you, as you know, and the future's looking good. And I think Raz, you're living your dream and living the dream. And uh, I loved I loved when you came on the screen earlier and and you were in your your camper in your caravan with that backdrop. So, Raz, wishing you the best, and uh we'll keep in touch, mate. All the best now. Take care.
SPEAKER_02Thank you very much, Gonna all the best to you too. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Thanks, mate. Take care, Raz.
unknownBye-bye.
SPEAKER_00You too.