E.220 Not Your Typical Shrinks: Real Talk for Real Heroes

Steve Bisson welcomes Bill Dwinnells, a licensed mental health counselor with over 30 years of experience and a background as an EMT, to discuss their joint venture, Gambit Counseling, and its innovative approach to first responder mental health.

The conversation explores why traditional mental health services often fall short for first responders. As Dwinnells eloquently explains, "First responders see a very unique slice of American life that the vast majority of people know absolutely nothing about," creating a profound disconnection that many carry with them. This disconnect frequently leads to challenges when seeking support – from therapists who visibly react with shock to their stories, to discomfort speaking openly in peer support settings.

Bisson and Dwinnells share their vision for the Fortress program, designed to complement existing crisis intervention systems with preventative wellness visits, resilience training, and a confidential support line. Unlike departmental resources, Gambit operates independently, allowing for truly confidential conversations about workplace challenges. As Dwinnells notes, "We can have very free, frank conversations about stuff and it all remains confidential."

The pair challenge common misconceptions about first responder mental health, revealing that trauma comprises less than half of what their clients typically discuss. More common are chronic stress, administrative conflicts, and what Bisson describes as "transference" – when a call triggers personal connections or memories. Throughout the episode, they emphasize that resilience isn't acquired through a single workshop but is "a daily practice" requiring ongoing attention.

For departments or individuals seeking support that truly understands first responder culture, Gambit Counseling offers a fresh approach focusing on prevention rather than just reaction. Visit gambitcounseling.com to learn how their services can help build sustainable resilience for those who protect our communities.

To reach Bill, go to www.billdwinnells.com/

For Gambit Counseling, go to gambitcounseling.com/

For more information on FRTRESS, email stevebissonlmhc@gmail.com or bdwinnells@gmail.com. 

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Resilience Development
• 2:10 Meet Bill Dwinnells: Crisis Response Expert
• 8:55 Gambit Counseling: A Different Therapeutic Approach
• 16:00 First Responder Challenges: Disconnection & Trust
• 25:50 The Fortress Program: Prevention Over Reaction
• 35:30 Building Resilience: A Daily Practice
• 39:50 Closing Thoughts and Contact Information

Transcript

Voice over: 0:00

Welcome to Resilience Development in Action, where strength meets strategy and courage to help you move forward. Each week, your host, steve Bisson, a therapist with over two decades of experience in the first responder community, brings you powerful conversations about resilience, growth and healing through trauma and grief. Through authentic interviews, expert discussions and real-world experiences, we dive deep into the heart of human resilience. We explore crucial topics like trauma recovery, grief processing, stress management and emotional well-being. This is Resilience Development in Action with Steve Bisson get freeai.

Steve Bisson: 0:53

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Steve Bisson: 2:09

Well, hi everyone and welcome to episode 220. If you haven't listened to episode 219, it was the second part with Hannah Elmore Great interview Go back and listen to it. We talked about a lot of stuff IAFF stuff also but episode 220 will be with Bill Dwinnells. Bill Dwinnells is a friend. He's also a business partner. We're working on a few things together. Bill has been in crisis work for over 25 years. I think he's probably more in like the 30-year mark. Bill is also someone who is a licensed mental health counselor, been practicing for over 30 years. He was also an EMT on the ambulance and we really are excited about our project with Gambit Counseling. So here's the interview. Bill Dwanels, welcome back to Resilience Development in Action.

Bill Dwinnells: 2:56

Thanks, Steve. Once again, an absolute pleasure and honor to be here.

Steve Bisson: 2:59

Well, I do hope that you say that by the end of the episode.

Bill Dwinnells: 3:03

Yes, I'm here without any kind of intermediary.

Steve Bisson: 3:08

But no, I think that one of the things people can go listen back to those episodes that I mentioned, but maybe it'd be good for you to reintroduce yourself, just so people who don't want to go listen to those episodes because sometimes it can be hard to do that to just say a little bit about yourself.

Bill Dwinnells: 3:22

Sure, my name's Bill Dwanels. I'm a licensed mental health counselor both in Massachusetts and now Vermont. I've spent about 27 years working in emergency psychiatric services, so I've worked alongside a lot of police and fire EMS departments providing psychiatric consultation on scene. I was actually one of if not I think the first co-responder for police departments in the state. Since those programs have been up and running, I've helped form multiple co-responding programs and CIT programs the crisis intervention teams for police departments over the years. I think I'm up to about six or seven departments at this point and I also have my own private practice that specializes in helping people with depression, anxiety and building much like the topic of your show today building resilience. In addition to that, I have worked in what now seems like a previous life about 10 years as an EMT both for private and municipal departments, as well as a number of years on about three different volunteer on call fire departments.

Steve Bisson: 4:45

And all regionally, right Right around here in Massachusetts, yeah, all within Massachusetts. And, for the record, anyone who knows me knows I respect that. But if you ever want to hear a good or bad thing I said about Bill when we first introduced ourselves to a chief, please don't tell anyone Bill. He'll force them to kind of like write to me. Really bad, but it was definitely not professional and that's on me. Uh, leave it. Leave a little bit of uh, no mystery here, please.

Steve Bisson: 5:17

And, for the record, we were all together for my birthday a few weeks ago and, uh, my girlfriend gave me probably as much shit as he did, so works out in some ways. But one of the things that we've been doing, bill, we talk about, you know, resilience development in action. I think when you were on it was finding your way through therapy and we were talking generally mental health, but now this has become a lot more about resilience development in action, helping first responders in particular, and me and you started. You know I've talked about it here and there, but me and Bill started about three years ago a small company that is finally finding its footing called Gambit Counseling. You want to talk a little bit about that formation, how we got together and all that fun stuff.

Bill Dwinnells: 6:00

Yeah, we got together and you know we had enjoyed working together so much I mean, we've worked a couple of different jobs together at this point and thought we really had a very unique way of providing therapy for people.

Bill Dwinnells: 6:15

I believe both of us have had clients make comments like, hey, you're not a typical therapist and, to be quite honest, we pride ourselves on not being a typical therapist. Um, and, to be quite honest, we pride ourselves on not being a typical therapist. You know we uh, you know certainly want to create a safe space and build rapport, like any therapist does, but we really want to be real with people as well. You know we want to. We want them to come away from the sessions feeling like they got something, not just a, not a therapist who just answered questions with questions, but actually gave them some practical skills to use or develop that can help them really manage their own life. I don't believe either one of us ever tells people what to do specifically or not typically. Occasionally maybe we do if they need that kind of direction. But for the most part, you know, we really prided ourselves on helping people learn to manage their own lives, their own emotions, you know, and really use their logic to kind of figure their way through difficulties.

Steve Bisson: 7:24

Right, and I think that what happens too is that you know Bill talked about a little bit of his experience working with. You know, when we first started the company, we were really aiming to not only do that type of stuff but also kind of like form other people and you know Bill is as complete as an MBA and we were trying to get people to come in and kind of like we could educate them, help them develop, either through our group practice at the time or help them develop skills so they can go on their own. But that's more often than I can count to the model we're kind of like aiming for at this point right.

Bill Dwinnells: 7:58

Yeah, I think we actually. You know, like what they tell you in all these marketing classes is to really define your niche. You know, and I think you know our first go out the door we were trying to be a little too many things for too many people. You know, and you know, after discussing with Steve, you know, like, look what, you know, what really makes us feel good about doing our jobs, what really makes us feel good about doing our jobs. And you know, we realized that our passion is really helping first responders. And you know we started to focus a little bit more, which gradually became more and more focusing on the first responder community. And you know some of the unique challenges and unique challenges that members of that community face and how can we best support them. You know, when something happens, and maybe even support them before something happens, you know, helping them, give them the education so that maybe we can stave off some of these things.

Steve Bisson: 9:00

Right, and I think that it goes also. You talk about style. You know first responder, the unique challenges that they face is one thing. It's how you deliver the message as a therapist. That's also key and I think that that's what we bring to the table. It's pretty unique and that's what we're trying to kind of like convey. If I had to ask you to describe not only about you know how do you communicate with a first responder? How has your experience been in the therapeutic setting? Not in the field where we got we got to be direct, honest and get shit done but rather in a therapeutic setting. How has been? How would you describe the style that we have to develop? Well, I I do.

Bill Dwinnells: 9:37

I would say it is still mostly fairly direct, you know direct and offering different perspectives. You know, because sometimes I think you know folks maybe, especially first responders they have protocols in the head. This is what I do in this situation and for some of the challenges that they come across, there's no protocol for it and they can get very myopic on. You know well, you, this is what I see other people do not realizing that that may just be a facade that the other person's putting on. That's not really an effective way to handle whatever the challenge is. So I think we are still direct, but we're direct in a way that we, you know, offer different perspectives and like, well, have you considered that? You know this may be playing into it and doing it in a way that shows that having emotions is normal, it's not weak.

Bill Dwinnells: 10:31

You know, like I, I know we both talk a lot of, we use a lot of like Buddhist and Stoic concepts in what we do, not trying to push either religion or philosophy, but some of these concepts form the basis of a lot of the types of therapy we practice and helping people, especially first responders, clear up that we don't have to go into these jobs and be these emotionalist robots who feel like they can't be affected by whatever it is we happen to come on scene to, but realizing that these things, these feelings, are going to come up and there are effective ways to manage them. Because I've had people come into session and say like well, can you get rid of my anxiety? Can you get me rid of my trauma?

Steve Bisson: 11:19

no, oh you, you're. You're hiding the magic wand. Is that what you're saying?

Bill Dwinnells: 11:23

yeah, I'm hiding the magic wand, I don't know you got to pay extra for that, no, but you know, just reminding people like you know, with your trauma, we can't change that. The trauma happened, we can't change that. You get anxious. You know, if we were able to get rid of your emotions, you wouldn't be human anymore. And then, honestly, what good of a therapist would we be? The whole point is we're here to help you manage the human experience. Well, first responders have a very unique perspective on the human experience, so they need therapists who can really understand that perspective and give them very good practical skills for how to manage those experiences.

Steve Bisson: 12:02

I think we all have stories right and for what we've seen in our sessions, and one of the common themes that I get from a lot of the first responders is I went to another therapist and when I told them some of the stories or some of the stuff I've been through, you can literally see them that the therapist needs a few seconds before they can react to it.

Steve Bisson: 12:22

You know, that's one of the ones I always remember is that someone started crying in front of me and one of them said I got to take a couple of minutes. And I mean those are not uncommon stories because first responders are. Again, you've heard me say this on the podcast. Bill has heard me that say, but I like to repeat it First responders see the 5% that the 95% of the population does not know about or doesn't want to recognize, and so you got to be ready for that stuff. And for me it's really about being able to take on that baggage, not make it about you and not take on the emotional strain for yourself and be there for the client, which is not like yeah, I made it sound like it's fucking, like anyone can fucking do it, but apparently not.

Bill Dwinnells: 13:09

Yeah, it's, it's really interesting. I can remember when I was on a department we had a, an annual dinner with all the families and stuff come in and they, they did a slideshow and the slideshow was, uh, pictures of scenes from the last year. It was just one year, the current year and all the families were like that all happened like in our town. Like yeah, yeah, you know, it's, it's really amazing. Like you said, um, first responders see a very unique slice of american life that the vast majority of people know absolutely nothing about and, to be honest, they're not supposed to.

Steve Bisson: 13:54

You know to a certain degree, because that's what we only take care of it well, I think that that's why you know first responders do exist, so that you don't know about the bad person, the crappy person or whatever. Yeah, we took care of it. Maybe you'll read it in the police blog or channel two, three, four, five, seven, twelve, whatever, but I think that that's part of it. Do you? Do you know how? You know, like we, we all deal with it differently, but for me, when, like, I'll go back to a funny story about a meeting we had a couple of weeks ago where me and Bill are not Mr Clipboard when we talk to people, but have you been, do you have any? Like, like I talked about the trauma and how some therapists who are doesn't know about or in therapy a therapist would be like, really that's a problem, stuff like that.

Bill Dwinnells: 14:56

Because I think that one of the things that you know like I talked about having previous guests in the last two episodes about couples and facing, like getting home and you know're you just maybe had a bad day or whatever you don't want to be sitting there talking about your feelings or you don't want to be handed off the kids right away or what have you, and I think sometimes it's understanding that dynamic outside of work that I think people don't comprehend, that the first responders face yeah, I think making that transition coming off shift and and you know we used to call it transitioning to regular life, you know can can be very difficult to pay if if you had a rough shift and and had some bad scenes with negative outcomes, you know it especially if you're coming back to a partner who's you know, kind of already told you that stuff kind of freaks them out and they don't really want to hear about it Not that they don't want to be supportive, just like you said before, the therapists get freaked out. You know, sometimes our loved ones, they really don't want to know what it is we did at work today because that would scare them and the first responder has to, you know, find a way to. You know how do I make that adjustment? I, I think one of the biggest things is the disconnect you know there's. There's a lot of disconnect, you know I I've I've heard a lot of first responders say that they just feel different.

Bill Dwinnells: 16:24

You know, and and they you know some of I with the popularity of harry potter. You know, and, and they you know some of I with the pop popularity of Harry Potter. You know I heard some first responders calling non-first responders the muggles. Um, you know, they're like the average normal people. They don't understand us.

Bill Dwinnells: 16:40

Um, you know, and in a, in a very real sense that's. That's very true. You know, the world the first responder lives in is very different than the regular world, so to speak, and I think sometimes that leads to a feeling of disconnection that I can't really be fully myself, because possibly fully myself might scare or unnerve the people around me if I told them what it is I do or what it is I, what it is I did today. So I think, you know, I I've seen, I've seen first responders who are very active in the coaching, softball and and you know, and stuff like that, and yet still, you know, they seem like they're like this really gregarious person, but yet in therapy they'll make comments that they just feel completely disconnected from everybody I think they are disconnected because you know it.

Steve Bisson: 17:34

You know like I, I always go back to one of the first episodes I did with my buddy jay. When you go to a barbecue, oh you're a cop, tell me your worst story. Or oh you're in, you're a paric, tell me what your worst story is. Why would I want to talk about that at a picnic?

Bill Dwinnells: 17:50

Yeah, yeah, people always want to hear the blood and gut stories or the high intensity stories. But it's interesting because, as much as they want to hear those stories, they never actually want to hear how that affected you and they don't want to hear the story sometimes once they hear it. Right, yeah, yeah, sometimes they regret the stories, if you do tell them the story.

Steve Bisson: 18:11

Right. So I think that you know. Part of what you know, I think that we came to with our Gambit counseling is that we really realized that there's great peer support networks. There absolutely is in Massachusetts, across the state, across the country. Absolutely is in Massachusetts, across the state, across the country.

Steve Bisson: 18:27

But one of the things that you know and there's great CISM teams and shout out the former guest and soon to be a guest again, aaron, who is going to be talking about some of that too but one of the things that's missing is that they don't have preventive work. You know, like a lot of this stuff is reactionary as a police officer and as a working on an ambulance, working at a hospital, working in the military, it's a reactive type of situation and one of the things that I know me and you really found very important once I went to training, I think, or whatever and I said, hey, bill, what about wellness and doing preventative visits? And that's part of our newer model that we're working on. You want to talk more about how you perceive the wellness being so important for those guys.

Bill Dwinnells: 19:12

Yeah, when we were talking about it, going towards it as far as like, or attacking the problem as far as wellness goes, it seems so obvious that part of me couldn't believe we hadn't thought about it before.

Bill Dwinnells: 19:26

But you know, instead of instead of just reacting to what the challenge is, you know what if we did something and started to address the problems upstream, you know, if we were offering, you know, not only therapy for when something happens, but if we started offering education courses, training courses, that would you know sort of you know, prep people for these are the things that you might experience and here are some practical skills for how to, how to manage them.

Bill Dwinnells: 19:58

You know as well as you know maybe coming in and doing checkups, you know, not not necessarily therapy, but somebody who they can sit and talk to, who you know kind of understands the forces at play here, and um can just kind of point out and say, hey, maybe, um, maybe you could use some assistance with this, that or the other thing, depending upon what the situation is, um, or maybe this might help you connect more with your spouse. But the preventative things, kind of getting at the problem upstream before it becomes a problem, Maybe we can head some of these things off. I kind of liken it to the in the fire service, the fire prevention team. Let's prevent the fire from happening in the first place, you know, with some just basic routine checks, and you know routine checks and things that we monitor.

Steve Bisson: 20:57

So I think that's you know that's part of it, and I think that what you're talking about, too is you know and let's. I want to be clear for those who are listening, and maybe on a peer support team or a CISM, me and Bill are not trying to talk about taking that away. In fact, we consider it very complimentary to the work that we're going to do.

Bill Dwinnells: 21:16

I think that's important to note, but yes, go ahead, the debriefings and the, you know, the the kind of the crisis response, because sometimes things happen, they're very overwhelming and those teams are great.

Bill Dwinnells: 21:34

You know, having, you know, been on uh, both of us have worked similar type jobs. They're fantastic at the same time, you know, by helping, you know, maybe with some training classes that we've been throwing around, we can make the folks more resilient so that those schisms can be even more effective, you know, should they have to happen, you know, for large events, you know, because a lot of these schism teams come in for, you know, big, dramatic events. But we also want to keep in mind that sometimes trauma, or what's usually more commonly called compassion fatigue, is kind of like death by a thousand paper cuts. It's never any one thing, it's more the accumulation of things you've gone to over. You know some folks we've worked with have a 20, 30, 40 year career. You know they might have some stuff they want to talk about, you know, and we want to make sure that we're able to give them the skills and techniques so that they can have that 30, 40 year career, you know, if that's what they so choose.

Steve Bisson: 22:46

Yeah, and I think that that's, you know, and one of the things that I want to acknowledge. While I just, you know, I said schisms are important, peer support is important, but none of those are one size fit all and again, they can't, can't fit everyone, and I know that what we talk about, these wellness visits and these trainings and these things, we also realize that that's not a one size fits all, it's like not for everyone, and we also recognize that. And you know, one of the things that I know and again, correct me if I'm wrong, but love to hear your point of view One of the things that people in the first responder world really don't like is go see this guy to talk.

Bill Dwinnells: 23:24

Yeah, that doesn't fly really fucking high with the guys I know anyway yeah, no, I, you know, I, I think you make a really good, uh point. There's um, it seems like one of the buzzwords everything these days is on a spectrum, which, uh, you know, in some ways kind of annoys me. I, I, I don't like that phrasing, and it's's true, you know, everything is on a spectrum. Some people may need this response to whatever it is that's going on. Some people may need a completely different response and, you know, most people are somewhere in the middle and I think that's the gap, you know, or that's how I see it is. That's the gap that we're trying to close. You know the SISMs, the peer specialists, the, you know, individual therapists all of that is great and different people may need those things or may need all of them at different times. We just kind of see this as one more tool in the toolbox that can be used again to support the people who protect us every day.

Steve Bisson: 24:28

Yeah, and I think that that's where you know part of what I see is like sometimes you know what I've heard about schisms. They're very helpful, please understand, there is no knock on it but I also have heard people like I don't want to talk in front of my colleagues, I don't want to tell them what's going on, and so that schism unfortunately doesn't work for that particular type of worker and for them to go well, go to therapy is also kind of like no, I'm not doing anything against my will. And I think that the gap that you're talking about is the wellness visit and also being able to talk about a support line line. And I think that that's where you know, like the, the, the advantage that me and Bill I think our program is going to be, is that we're you know I'm not, we're not working with, let's choose a Ashburnham PD just because we don't work with them for now and I'm not picking on Ashburnham, they're in Massachusetts, but they can be like I don't want to talk to my peer there.

Steve Bisson: 25:32

This isn't team. I didn't feel comfortable talking in front of people, but I am more than happy to call a support line where I know. You know, bill and Steve are not affiliated per se to us and we can have like a quick conversation as needed and if I want to engage, I know Steve and Bill. They've trained us for some in-service and they're aware of the wellness program. It just fills a lot of the gaps that exist in the program, like in a lot of the need in the first responder world. In my opinion.

Bill Dwinnells: 25:59

Yeah, I think you're absolutely right and I think one of the things that you were getting at was trust. Know, was trust. You know that. You know, you know a number of the departments that we've both worked with, both as a department or individual members of those departments. You know, that's like the big thing in the first responder world.

Bill Dwinnells: 26:21

I've seen, I've worked with first responders who are like oh well, you know, do you like your partner? No, I don't like him, I trust him. You know he'll do what he needs to do and he'll protect me. You know we see this with a lot of military people. Oh, these are the worst people in the world and I would absolutely trust them with my lives, you know, not my wife, but my life, you know. So, so it's, it's, it's very, it's very unique, especially when, um, you know, when we have, you know, some of these first responders military, you know contacting us, saying like, well, you know they're very heartwarming and say, well, we want to work with you. You know we, you know, cause, we know you, we trust you.

Bill Dwinnells: 27:03

You know, I had that experience recently where the department I hadn't worked with in 10 years called me up and they said, hey, can we bend your ear about this. I'm like, oh yeah, sure, no problem. And they were like, yeah, when we decided we wanted outside opinion on this, we all thought of you and we were like we know Bill, we trust Bill. Let's see if Bill will answer our question. Of course I will, to the best of my ability. So I think that's the other thing that we're trying to do in our program is to build the trust. You know we're not actually affiliated with any specific department or anything else. We're completely independent. So you know we can have very free, frank conversations about stuff and you know it all remains confidential.

Steve Bisson: 27:50

Because I think the other part too, and part of the conversations we can have through wellness visits or even like the support line. And let me be clear when we talk about a support line, we're not there to just let people fucking vent. That's not the job we're looking at. That's why you have friends, that's why the job we're looking at We'll let, that's why you have friends, that's why you have other people in your life. We're not the venting.

Steve Bisson: 28:12

But you know, like if you've had a major administration betrayal, you may not want to talk to anyone at the department because you don't know who your ally or who isn't, and all that stuff. And call me paranoid, call me whatever you want. The truth is that those things happen and at the end of the day, having a support line, having a wellness visit you know I didn't feel supported by my Lieutenant. Well, me and Bill we're not going to go see the Lieutenant and go. We talked to their colleagues and you know what Johnny said about blah, blah, blah. No, we don't give a shit, we're just there for them and giving them the coping skills in order to deal with that. Again, not always therapy, but sometimes being able to do the wellness visits just develops a lot of coping skills and resiliency. Yes, let's plug the podcast a little bit and develop that resiliency.

Bill Dwinnells: 29:00

Yeah, I almost like to think of it as resilience coaching. Yes, a hundred percent. We can take that as an, as you know, one of the next buzzwords that we'll use in society today. Yes, 100% challenges, you know, and for different people it's going to be different things, because people have different resources available to them, both externally and internally. How can we capitalize on what you have available, you know, to hopefully rectify whatever the situation is?

Steve Bisson: 29:41

And I think that that's the encompassing program that we're creating through Gambit and what we call Fortress right now and is really about getting that wellness, that support, that resiliency and the development of it, Because I don't know about you, but I develop resiliency every day, sometimes against my will, sometimes because I have to and sometimes because I want to.

Bill Dwinnells: 30:06

It's definitely resilience. Developing resiliency is not a class you take and then you're good. It is like most other things, it's a daily practice. Some days you're really good at it, Some days maybe not so much. That's okay. Tomorrow's a new day. We get a whole other day to practice, and it is, it's a practice. It we get a whole nother day to practice, you know, and it is, it's a, it's a practice. It's not a, it's not a one and done skill, and I think that's the. That's the thing that people need to remember, because we're in a very especially the United States, especially today. We seem to have a very, a society very focused on instant gratification. It's like well, you know, I took the class. Why come I can't do these things perfectly? No, that's not the way it works. We have to practice these things, you know, each and every day to get really good at it.

Steve Bisson: 30:59

Well, I think it's the joke that I make about my degree when people ask me about what's my experience. Oh, I read a book once, pretty much have it covered after I read that book and they all laugh. But I think that that's the attitude sometimes of like oh, I went to one meeting about mental health resilience. I'm just making it up here.

Steve Bisson: 31:20

I'm just making it up here, and they go like oh, I got it all and I know how to handle it. It's dynamic, it doesn't. It changes with time and, as we both know it's. You know what stays in here usually is either negative and repetitive or both. And learning to talk to someone like us, who you know again, never will I pretend I was a first responder. People know this listening to this podcast and you know me, bill. I've never pretended I was, but I think that having someone who has that experience I've been there next to X, y, z and I don't want to use an example, but whatever, and you've been there, you've been on calls, you are an EMT, you've done that stuff and I think that having that experience and the mental health part is really what we bring to the game. That is so much stronger than for people to understand us. Not that people won't try to see if we can handle their shit, but that's just hard for the course were saying earlier about like people take a course and they think they got it.

Bill Dwinnells: 32:25

I mean, you know, between the two of us, we've run into a number of therapists who, very well meaning I don't want to, you know, um, say anything negative about them, but they, they, they took a course on first responder culture and think they understand it. You know, um and again, I'm not trying to shit on them or anything, but there's a very big difference between taking what is essentially a cultural competency about it versus you know, oh, no, I can very clearly picture the scene that, you know you say you walked into, when you just say, oh, I was at an nva, right, um, it's it's very different and I think that that's what it is.

Steve Bisson: 33:18

It's well-meaning people who you know and again, I'm gonna shit them. So if you don't, I will, it's my show. I can do whatever I want. But, truthfully, one of the biggest pet peeves I have is you know a lot of therapists who are not informed how to work with first responders. What's the first word? They tell you oh, it's all trauma. Yeah, no, actually, no, not even. It's not even 50. I'll be perfectly honest with you. Does it happen? Of course, but do you talk about trauma only with your first responders? I find that it's less than 50 of the time yeah, no, not, not, unless something really major happened.

Bill Dwinnells: 33:59

Um, you know there may be things that are contributing to, you know, chronic stress or yeah, I guess chronic stress would be the best way to put it that you know may come up.

Steve Bisson: 34:13

You know we usually end up spending a lot of time, you know, talking about stuff like that, and I think that what happens to me is you'll get someone who goes oh, I went to this call and reminded me of this call and I'm keeping it vague purposefully and I mean, oh really, all I could see is that boy, girl, child, adult, whatever's face, right, you know. And then never mind Again sorry for putting therapy in here for all you first responders, but the transference stuff that we have. We go to a call that reminds us of a family member or our spouses or what have you, and that plays a factor too. It's not trauma necessarily, but it is sometimes what triggers a longer conversation.

Bill Dwinnells: 34:59

Yeah, I mean, we've had people show up to scenes where you know the person gets on scene and the victim is a child, their child's age.

Bill Dwinnells: 35:09

Mm, hmm, you know, or you know somebody that reminds them of a loved one or, as you said, it reminded me of this other thing that happened and it's you know. It can be. It can be challenging, especially when we have to. What do they call it in EMDR the memory networks we start uncovering the channels, how all these things are connected. I think that's important for people to know that sometimes, like why is this coming out?

Bill Dwinnells: 35:43

Something you're experiencing is giving you the same feeling, so your mind thinks it's the same thing and it starts to equate it really fast. Because your mind really likes shortcuts. Because I think somebody said the brain makes 34,000 decisions a day and the only way it can do that is it comes up with its own shortcuts. So sometimes it makes connections that if we really sat and thought logically about it or a little less passionately, we probably wouldn't make those associations. But your brain needs to make them fast. So these are the connections it makes it fills in the gaps. These are the connections it makes it fills in the gaps. One of the things I always explain to my clients is this is why optical illusions work on us because our mind is filling in what it thinks is supposed to be there.

Steve Bisson: 36:33

Right. That's why sometimes we have false memory. And number two, as I point out once in a while, there's no such thing as objective Right. But maybe that's too much of our stoic philosophy, who knows?

Bill Dwinnells: 36:45

yeah, that's, yeah, could be, could be, yeah, the whole. What was the phrase I told you the other day? Life is opinion. Life is just an opinion, correct?

Steve Bisson: 36:55

um, so it's kind of interesting well, I think that you know, talking about this fortress stuff between you know the wellness visits, the trainings and the support line, we, we, we made sure that we named it properly and if you want to know why, call us and we'll know that. But one of the things that I'm hoping is that different departments here what we're talking about here, it may be interested in like getting are more interested. They want to know more about what we do. How do you think you think how, like I know that you can contact us, but what's the best way to contact us? You, bill, I mean I, I think about my email, um and my phone number and um, but I mean I'm I can put in the show notes your email and your phone number.

Bill Dwinnells: 37:39

Yeah, probably the email and the phone number. Um, you know we also have our website, gambit Counseling. That has the connections. It is going to be going through a bit of a redo since we're kind of rebranding ourselves, so you know. But you can definitely get both of us through our website, gambitcounselingcom, and you said you're going to put in the show notes the our email addresses and phone numbers. Uh, if anyone's interested, cause I know we also have our own individual websites too. So I don't know, do we want to plug those? It's your, your time. Sure, so we have. You know, my, my personal website is just my last name. Uh, dwan spelled D-W-I-N-N-E-L-L-S-B-H, that's boyandhenrycom. That is for my personal private practice. And Steve, yours, I believe, is straight to the point therapy, right?

Steve Bisson: 38:40

No, it's actually steve-bissoncom. Oh, steve-bissoncom, and I was hoping that you would actually said Duanell's Bravo Hotel, but you didn't say that, so I forgot my, that would be better.

Steve Bisson: 38:56

But no, I really encourage any one of us, like they go to our website.

Steve Bisson: 38:59

You'll have an idea. But also, if you want more details cause you know, because we're giving you a 30 to 40 minute presentation of it we'd like to have a conversation with you because we really feel like this is going to fill a lot of the gaps that exist, and I think that Bill and I are very experienced. We have at least one other person that's available who is also going to be working with us and is a female, so it's not just men talking, there's women too, so there's a lot of advantages to have us around. So I just want to make sure that people can also think about all that, plus look at information that we create. Well, bill, I think I'm going to see you Sunday, yep, our usual spot, and if you want to know where to find us and you can always stop by again we'll direct message me or bill. You'll have his email and everything else. You can always join us on Sundays and I really thank you for your time, bill Tuckson.

Bill Dwinnells: 39:52

All right, Thanks a lot.

Steve Bisson: 39:52

Steve. Well, this completes episode two. 20 build one else. You know you're my friend, but I still say thank you. Hope people inquire about our program. Go see Bill's website if you want to talk to Bill and do therapy with him. But I really want to thank him and I will see you for episode 221.

Voice over: 40:10

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