Resilience Development in Action

E.222 Sweating It Out: Fire Boots to Therapy Couch

• Steve Bisson. Adam Neff • Season 122 • Episode 222

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When a fellow firefighter confessed suicidal thoughts to Adam Neff one night at the firehouse, it changed everything. Despite his decades of experience handling emergencies, Adam found himself unprepared for this particular crisis. That moment became the catalyst for his remarkable transition from assistant chief of operations to licensed professional counselor specializing in first responder mental health.

During our conversation, Adam reveals the profound disconnect between traditional therapeutic approaches and the needs of emergency responders. Drawing from his 38 years in the fire service and his clinical training, he illuminates why cultural competency isn't just helpful – it's essential for effective mental health care in this population. His colorful anecdotes highlight how clinicians who can't navigate firehouse humor, understand departmental hierarchies, or recognize the language of the profession will struggle to build trust with these clients.

Adam's approach bridges these worlds perfectly. He describes teaching somatic awareness – helping responders recognize when their "check engine light" is signaling emotional distress – in a way that resonates with tactical professionals. His strict confidentiality boundaries protect the vulnerability of clients who may work alongside referral sources, while his fourth-floor perspective training (offered free to departments nationwide) makes mental health concepts accessible to those who've traditionally avoided seeking help.

Perhaps most powerfully, Adam challenges the myth that because firefighters work in teams and talk around the kitchen table, they're naturally more connected to their emotions. The reality is more complex – these heroes need therapists who understand when to push, when to use humor, and when to simply sit in the discomfort together. His insight that "unexpressed expectations is premeditated resentment" captures the importance of directness in this work.

Whether you're a first responder struggling with your mental health, a clinician wanting to better serve this population, or someone who cares about the wellbeing of our emergency services personnel, this episode provides invaluable perspective on what healing looks like when the rescuer becomes the one in need of rescue.

Adam can be reached on his website at www.agoodspacetherapy.com

Adam also founded and continues to coordinate the Springfield Area Memorial Stair Climb- http://springfieldmemorialstairclimb.org/

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Speaker 1:

Welcome to Resilience Development in Action, where strength meets strategy and courage to help you move forward. Each week, your host, steve Bisson, a therapist with over two decades of experience in the first responder community, brings you powerful conversations about resilience, growth and healing through trauma and grief. Through authentic interviews, expert discussions and real-world experiences, we dive deep into the heart of human resilience. We explore crucial topics like trauma recovery, grief processing, stress management and emotional well-being. This is Resilience Development in Action with Steve Bisson.

Speaker 2:

Hi and welcome to episode 222. If you haven't listened to episode 221, go back and listen. It's with my buddy and my business partner, bill Dwanals. It was a great interview, so please go back and listen to it. But episode 222 will be with Adam Neff. Adam Neff is someone who was in the fire service for about 38 years and is currently working as an LPC and a consultant as well as a trainer. He's focused on emergency responders as a whole. I'm sure that he'll talk about that and he was referred to me through a group that I prolonged to, so hopefully you guys will get a great interview. I like a guy with service and mental health combined, because I think that's a unique perspective. So here's the interview.

Speaker 2:

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Speaker 2:

Well, hi everyone and welcome to episode 222. I connected with this gentleman over Facebook, I believe, and I love this story, and you know there's nothing like what you know. Resilience development in action is about the psychology of first responders, essentially, and what Adam Neff is is a former firefighter for 30 years who now has his license. What did they call him? Professional counseling, I believe. Yeah, licensed professional counselor In Massachusetts. We have a different name, but they're all acronyms. You forget about them at one point. But yes, that's, and I'm like my, my god, this is like the perfect guest for my audience. So, adam, welcome to resilience development in action.

Speaker 3:

thank you, thank you. I appreciate being here and the opportunity to leave it better than I found it we were talking about it earlier.

Speaker 2:

I can't wait for you guys. He's launching his his uh website. He launched it in august, right, so you guys can go to a brand new website with a lot of information. We'll definitely talk about that, but I just want to mention that right off the top, and for those of you who don't listen regularly, it'll be in the show notes, but I always try to connect my audience to the people who are here. But you know I got to talk to you beforehand. We talked about how sweaty we were in 95 degree heat, but not together, not together for clarity, yes, that the saunas are done separately, but we enjoy them nonetheless.

Speaker 2:

Oh sorry, is that too much again? But anyway, and you know there's there's something called time zones that really affect us for being able to have that sauna together. But that's okay, man, one day I'll go to Missouri and I promised a friend of mine in Missouri to go visit one day, so maybe I'll meet you there, but let's avoid the saunas, just in case. But all joking aside, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I'm a licensed professional counselor.

Speaker 3:

I've been doing that now for about three years.

Speaker 3:

Before that, I was in the fire service, spent seven years as a volunteer cadet volunteer and then got hired full time in a small department in my hometown, worked my way up and when I left I was the assistant chief of operations and training and transitioned to the mental health world. So there's a lot more within that 30-year career, obviously. But really proud of one of the things that I started about 13 years ago, I founded the Springfield Area Memorial Stair Climb. It's a memorial stair climb for those that were killed on 9-11. And I officially turned that over to the next coordinator, if you will, a couple of years ago. So I founded and led that for 10 years and when I started it it was me and my wife in the kitchen table just putting it together, and when I left there was 10 coordinators handling different sections of the event and 60 volunteers every year that come in to help us set up and tear down, and thousands of climbers over the years. So that's probably one of my more highlighted things in my career.

Speaker 2:

That's really awesome. Was there a particular attachment to 9-11 for you?

Speaker 3:

Legitimately. It was just one of those things where I was in the shower and thinking I needed to do more for the fire service and what could I do that wasn't already being done in my area, and the originally thing started as doing something to support a brother that had been diagnosed with MS and in our area bike rides are a big thing for MS and that kind of just evolved into doing the stair climb and I really thought, man, if my own crew shows up that first year, I'll be happy.

Speaker 3:

and unfortunately we had a local line of duty deaths just a month before our first air climb. So in conjunction with the money we raised for the national fallen firefighters foundation, we also raised money on the local level for matt blankenship so I'm sorry about the line of doubt.

Speaker 2:

That's unfortunate that it's so common in your field and, yeah, certainly happens a lot. The one question I came up with when I was listening to what you said, I'm like you know, I, I don't know, like I know firefighters and no disrespect to uh, my uh cop friends, but firefighters tend to be a little closer to their emotions than the police. I think they, you know, the, you know talking around the table and all that makes it a lot easier, and shitting on people's chili and stuff like that is even better. But um, at the end of the day, I think there's a lot more talkative, the more talkative bunch. But what made you decide when they gee, will it cursed? I want to do this for a living. I mean to me like it's not exactly the glamour transfer from fire to mental health. I'm not bitching about my job, guys, before you send all the fucking letters, I love my job, but you know it's not exactly like oh, what's the second lowest paid masters? That's what I'm going to do.

Speaker 3:

That's what I'm going to do. What is? That's what I'm gonna do.

Speaker 2:

That's what I'm gonna do. What is the student loan debt to income ratio? Oh, that, that's the one.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I don't want to do philosophy I'd be too crazy, right? Uh yeah, and looking at a phd program here recently I said, oh look, I can get another master's along the way and my life's like what are you gonna do with a third master's? And I'm like that's a great point. I don't know how I made the jump. You know it's interesting. I always really kind of prided myself when I was on the apparatus being aggressive and you know, the best way to be safe on the fire ground is to be smart and aggressive and really kind of prided myself on not only saying, hey, this is not only the only way to do it, this is just a way. Up until I had one of my company officers I'd gotten promoted to battalion chief and been a battalion for a while and one of my company officers. We just got done with our OCMED fitness evaluations evaluations for the year. For a lot of us that's the only time we went to the doctor. I don't need to get my own primary care doctor, I got one that comes to the firehouse.

Speaker 2:

We're set um, I mean I'm not paying extra money, right? What's that I was gonna say then? Firefighters live such a healthy lifestyle with their eating and their behaviors and everything else, so I know, I know you don't need it.

Speaker 3:

I, I understand tactical athletes yeah exactly so, um, achmed doctor comes in, we do our normal thing, my company officer it's about 11 o'clock at night. Uh, when I was on the on shift, I really just I held all of my stuff towards the end of the day so I could interact with the crews and stuff. And he comes in and says, yeah, I kind of want to talk to you, so close the door and we have a great relationship, and he tells me that he's thinking about killing himself. Whoa, I really prided myself on being able to help firefighters navigate time management issues, performance issues. This was not on my, on my realm, so we kind of talked a little bit and I said, uh, did you mention it to the doc? And he said, oh yeah, yeah, he, he pulled out his suicide checklist out of his wallet sorry for rolling my eyes, but went through the list, patted my guy on the shoulder and said you should probably go talk to somebody.

Speaker 3:

Just patted my guy on the shoulder and said you should probably go talk to somebody. So my desire to be supportive and helpful for him knowing how big this was and this, mind you, is circa 2016-ish so I started doing a little research, started doing a little reading, a little finding out what I can find out, and I kind of stumbled onto the fact that I have a bit of a mental health problem myself. So that kind of got me on a path and always in my career I've really enjoyed the training side and created and was a lead instructor for a regional training academy here with other area departments and my own crews, my own departments, creating developmental plans, helping people be successful at the next levels. So frustrated of the repetitive issues that these folks aren't ready for the next level, oh, I guess we'll just magically just hope it'll get better. So I looked at that and that's really where I kind of got my basis at for a lot of my things and really just have a unique opportunity or perspective, I should say, to take really complex concepts and make them easy to understand for everybody.

Speaker 3:

You know I use it in my sessions regularly because not everyone speaks therapistese and if you can understand a little bit of this, it's not overly complicated. I'm not a gatekeeper. I share with my clients as much as I can, as much as I want, especially my emergency responder clients. They want to active participate. I have no business telling people what to do in sessions, but I can help you if you're open to it, and if you're not, that's okay. I'm just going to poke you and challenge you and build a relationship with you. But I did all that in the fire service too. So all those things really felt kind of normal and natural to me. And people asked me if I was going to go to the peer route, maybe.

Speaker 3:

And as soon as I had my mindset on it, I was going to go to the peer route, maybe, and as soon as I had my mindset on it I was going to be a LPC, which is what they are here in Missouri so that kind of how I got started and I would agree with you and and and certainly not a, not a weird competition of traumatic shit, but in my experience both taking, taking classes, working with clients, I think the misconception is is because the fire service works in teams, we talk about our feelings a lot. No, we do use that fire service language to start processing that, but I work with way more other disciplines than I do with the fire service.

Speaker 2:

And it's also like again, please and I think that what I'm, Adam, I don't want to speak for you, but I'm pretty sure that's what you would have said we're all for peer support networks, we're all for crisis intervention, stress management, we're all for that, but there's also other stuff that's needed and that's what I want to make sure I because I've heard people say, well, you push therapy and I have a program I work with that's a little different, Like, oh so you don't like peer support? No, I never said that. I just said that peer support ain't for everyone, that's all, and my program may not be for anyone else, and that is fine too. It's making sure that you have more options than less.

Speaker 2:

So I'm going to put that out there, and I think that that's what our emergency medical personnel in general whether it be police, fire I include my ER nurses, my correctional staff in there and even some of the emergency crisis clinicians that I've worked with, and let's not forget my friends the EMT and paramedic and dispatch they all have that problem of I don't have enough options. Well, I'm going to give you a shitload of options and you better take one of them. So that's what I want to make sure I mentioned because I know you probably feel the same way because I never want us to be perceived as putting down one program over the other.

Speaker 3:

No, I'm just merely and I appreciate the clarity merely sharing my own personal experience.

Speaker 2:

Oh, I didn't get that from you for the record. I just want to put it out there because Absolutely yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3:

I think more options are better than less. Yeah, I mean.

Speaker 2:

And then when you have a doctor, this is where the you know. One of the things I emphasize in pretty much all my podcasts is that you need cultural competency. And if Adam came to me and said privately, steve, I think I'm suicidal. You know, the worst thing I could ever do to Adam is grab a sheet and go, okay, what is, what's your symptoms? And like, right away, adam will shut down because I just proved that I have no competency. And instead of inquiring about the real stuff, you inquired about what is going to make the checklist and one of the things. I know that a lot of firefighters, police and everyone else I just talked about the EMT world that's what they despise who has a pad in the paper and asking the questions that are rehearsed. I don't know if that's your experience, but that's certainly my experience.

Speaker 3:

It is certainly my experience on the receiving end as a firefighter seeking mental health, and I also, to prove your point and I think it's really important to share this, I still refer to that therapist because they are a good therapist. For a lot of people, right, this is not a good therapy, not for what I needed. Lot of people Right, this is not a good therapy, not for what I needed. So I took a break, maybe longer than I probably should, cause if anyone's going to win therapy I mean I know you can't win therapy, but if we can, it's going to be me. So it's kind of one of those things where I took a break and really just tried to be more intentional, more curious, try to ask myself the questions that the therapist, the certified first responder, extraordinaire therapists didn't ask, and I was also spending time about why those important, those questions were important to me.

Speaker 2:

So yeah, and I think you talked and you know I'm happy you did that. You were there for that firefighter and I needed the support and you know I know many firefighters and police and everyone else who have been there for their colleagues that way and shout out to all of you because while you're good at what you do, you're not fucking trained into doing that. And so, from my perspective, thank you for you and anyone who I know and I don't know listening to this right now, because that's one hell of a challenge. I'm trained into that stuff, but it's still once in a while we're like, oh, it's a punch in the face once in a while and I can handle it, don't get me wrong, but you know doesn't mean that it's not a punch in the face. That's yeah, yeah. So you know, like you said, you've been in, you know the the part that I, I, you Doesn't mean that it's not a punch in the face, yeah. So, like you said, you've been in the part that I.

Speaker 2:

What I find interesting is you said you've been in therapy. Yeah, and you've had some bad experiences. Obviously Not that they were bad therapists, but this is what I tell people. I said bad experience, I didn't say bad therapist. I have a lot of colleagues that don't do my job, but they're excellent therapists. But they couldn't handle a first responder making a joke about them, saying that it's unprofessional where I fucking laugh because I know it's part of the exchange with the guy and that's not something. You know this or you don't, and that's it. That's just that simple.

Speaker 2:

I started in the police service when I was doing the mental health part. I've never been again. Those who are new to the podcast, I don't steal valor. I've never been a first responder, but I sat in many vehicles and what I you, the guy once said to me is the best advice he's like if someone made a joke or something and he's like hey, they like you. Like how do you know they're making fun of you? If they don't fucking like you, they will not talk to you, and then that's when you should be nervous. It always stuck with me that that's what is a good indication. So when my clients come in and make fun of me, I know that means all right, I've got them, they I'm on, they know I'm on their side. It's when they start getting silent and being super serious and I'm like shit, I lost him, maybe Right. What do you mean by that, though? I want to hear your point of view on that. What do you mean? Yeah?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I always say maybe, because I never wanted to sign or pass a judgment. I want to be more curious, and they may shut down because they lost me, but they also may be shutting down because you're getting ready to tell me something really hard that we've been working towards. So if I have a little nugget that I like to pass on to people, particularly other therapists that work with this population and I'm a big fan of saying what I see and see what I get If I have a feeling about something, I'm just going to ask. I'd rather just ask and let you tell me, and not just your words. It has your body language, your, your gaze, your, your everything.

Speaker 3:

I'm looking at all of it because if it's too hard to tell me and I don't offer you respite the work is going to come slow. But I don't have to leave my people that I work with in the ditch for us to do good work. We don't have to always talk about the really hard stuff, because I'm here for all of it. I want you to tell me what you don't think has been important enough for therapy. No, I want to hear all of it.

Speaker 2:

So, yeah, that's why I say maybe, and I think that you know. I think you're absolutely right, by the way. Thank you for correcting me on that.

Speaker 2:

It makes sense to me. The other part too is I'm a big hockey fan. I'm in the Northeast, here in Massachusetts. A lot of the firefighter first responders in general they tend to be sports fan. We am a Montreal Canadiens fan because I'm born and raised in Montreal, so in Boston it's not always popular, but they. But when we exchange for that for 20 minutes, sometimes we'll get little nuggets of who they are. Oh, I used to go to a game right before my beating from my dad and let the and like oh, okay, dad beat me and I'm exaggerating, but you get the point. Yeah, even in talking about you know, I call it the round table. We're just shooting the shit. You get information if you're a good therapist, yeah, yeah, I think. I think that's what's important too, because if I sat there and I told a first responder, please tell me more about your feelings, they'll be like uh, yeah, I'm pretty good at fucking masking that shit.

Speaker 3:

Wrong question next and honestly, if in total transparency I think that's when I look back on that, because I knew you was going to ask me that question about therapy and navigating some other groups and Facebook and I think you and I are in the same clinicians for first responder groups I was really kind of reflecting on that experience. I knew that question was going to come up and now, looking back on it, I know what it was for me. I didn't want to let that therapist down. I was doing the same thing I was doing in the firehouse Wow, like I was sharing some things just enough and colluding with him.

Speaker 3:

So the the shortcoming for me in that relationship or in that and I and I want to be clear he is a very skilled and a very talented and is very gracious and generous with his time and experience with our field in this particular area for me, I needed him to be maybe a little more therapist-y and little less focused on the relationship, and this will be something for our therapist listeners who work in this population. We already have a lot of trust built up because Bob told me he was good. I'm going to him because I trust fucking Bob. I don't need you to sit there and go. Oh man, you guys do such a good job. I sure do love the fire debarters.

Speaker 2:

I don't need all that, because I've already got that.

Speaker 3:

That's why I'm here.

Speaker 2:

Thank you. You're America's heroes. Thank you.

Speaker 3:

Yeah yeah, here's a cookie, great, thank you. It's kind of like here in the Midwest If I let you out in traffic, don't take the extra time to wave at me. Just fucking go, just go go. I've already let you out.

Speaker 2:

Thank you, you're welcome thank you, no, no, go, go go yeah, go, go, go.

Speaker 3:

I got places. I'd like to go. But in that, in that experience, I needed him to be more curious. I needed him to ask more questions. I needed him to say why, after 30 years, this call fucking you up. Why now? And it was oh well, because I'm an Enneagram 8. And because I already am pretty self-aware because of my own experiences and I didn't know that at the time. I just knew I was really self-aware but I didn't know why.

Speaker 3:

And once he hit the target and once we kind of reprocessed, we were so good in therapy that two and a half sessions later he was like you look like you're doing pretty good. Do you need to stay the whole hour? And I was just getting ready to start at my first job as a therapist and I said you know, honestly, doc, I paid for the whole hour. Won't you tell me what I'm getting ready to get into and give me some of your perspective and insight? So we bullshitted the last half hour. He says well, if you want to come back, you can just reach out to me. And I said you know, let's just go ahead and make an appointment for a month out, just to see my.

Speaker 2:

My therapist is brilliant and I haven't stolen this one yet, but this is my favorite one, whether you're thinking about coming in weekly, bi-weekly, monthly, and he knows I've been with him for years and he knows I know his trick. But what he does is is like do you want to reschedule? Yeah, and one day I'm like, why would I not want to reschedule? I'm a fucked up human being, I need help. And he's like, yeah, but that gave you a choice. Yep, and I'm like, fuck, that's really good. So usually I say I still say, uh, when do you want to reschedule? But I really want to change that, because you know the other part too, particularly again, our group of first responders. Giving them choices sometimes can be much more empowering than anything else.

Speaker 3:

Honestly. I mean, if we were to speak several months ago, that probably would have been helpful in saved me a lot of money in therapy, because that's how long it took me to kind of come to that. I want, I want choice. I want my clients to have choice. It's really important for me to have choice right, and what I like and I say something similar to that is do you want to come back? Yeah, see's perfect. Do you want to come back? Cause I'll operate a lot from a intersubjective space. I'm very relational in the room. I don't give advice. It's not my business to give you advice. If you come into my office and said I'm going to jump out the window and I'm going to aim for the bushes Cause I think I can make it, and Adam would say can I share a perspective though, cause there might be some things you might not have considered Right, and a lot of times, a lot of our emergency responders, a lot of the normal I say normal the general populace operates on a right or wrong spectrum Called civilians, yeah, civilians, yeah, the others this will get some of the listeners uh, the muggles can we call?

Speaker 3:

Can we call them muggles? Okay, I like that, yeah, yeah, but I think we operate on this spectrum of good and bad and when things don't quite align all good or all bad, we get kind of discombobulated in our system and we can notice that feeling and somatics has been a huge assistance for my clients, especially the emergency responders, and I teach them everything that I've been taught. This has gone to a conference, so if it is helpful for them, I want them to be able to use it, and it's been huge.

Speaker 2:

It's been huge so somatics, I think somatics, I want to get back to that. The other part too. You talked about body language. I'm just going to share. But I want to get back to somatics.

Speaker 2:

As I started my job years ago, I worked at a parole office with the parolees, and they're not exactly the most I want to talk to you type. But what I learned is to read body language extremely well. And, lo and behold, whenever I make an observation about their body, again I read a lot. But once I read the body language, they were able to talk more because I picked up on the body language and I think that that's so key as a good therapist to also pick it up. You know like, oh, let's talk about your parents and for those of you who are not on YouTube, I'll dictate what I just did Shoulder slump. Okay, I hit a nerve, let's talk about it. And I'm exaggerating. It's not always that. Sometimes it's subtle, but I believe that body language is also important. But I want to hear more about somatic Because for my audience, somatic that sounds like a psychobabble word. In my opinion, it does.

Speaker 2:

But maybe let's break down the psychobabble bullshit into something real. Can you tell me more about it?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so when we think about somatics we just want to really want to think about our body how does our body feel? And the very famous book that I recommend a lot for my emergency responder clients who, just for clarity, is police, fire, pre-hospital care and telecommunicators, and, as you eloquently put, there's a lot of people that can fit in that classification. I typically don't use a generalization if I'm talking to a specific group, but I think it is important to I'm not talking about ER nurses or social workers or people that respond outside of that first 15 minute window of an emergency.

Speaker 3:

But when we are navigating difficult feelings or difficult situations or experiencing. Sitting here on your podcast, you probably notice me shifting around a lot in my chair. It's not my favorite chair. I'm in my home office but also I was noticing some emotion because I didn't really want to let go of tears within the first 10 minutes of the podcast.

Speaker 3:

I just took a deep breath because I could feel it coming up right here and, as you were talking, I'm noticing this feeling in my chest going well, why do I? Why do I feel this? And and this is real time I've done this long enough to know. Okay, why am I feeling this way? Because I don't want anybody to think less of me and then I go yeah, that's not a real. That's not a real thing. And even if they do think less of you, I don't really care right I like the words then what?

Speaker 2:

but but anyway, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3:

Well, actually I do care, and that's where it starts is recognizing my own shit to where it begins with I do care, I do want you to think that I'm good, I do want you to think that I know what I'm talking about and I can impact the community, both emergency responder and the clinician world. But that's not that. Judgment may or may not come, but that's going to come from my me doing, not how I'm presenting. So the challenge in that aspect is noticing the feeling, because that's the check engine light for our body. If our check engine light comes on in our car, we don't slow down unless we think we can make it and then floor that son of a gun and we're going to make it. But when we see that check engine light come on our dash, we kind of scroll all of our gauges on our dash. And that's what I'm communicating to people is that when you notice that feeling in your chest, your stomach, your jaw, your shoulders, I want you to slow down and go.

Speaker 3:

Man, I'm at home, I'm in the safest place in my world and my environment. Why am I feeling anxious right now? So I take a big polyvagal breath, four seconds in, six seconds out, like I'm blowing through a straw. You can call it tactical polyvagal breath if you want, I guess if that makes people feel better and I start slowing myself down because my body can get me amped up if I need to. My breath can get me amped up if I need to. I'm getting jacked, I'm ready to go, but I can also slow myself down by being very intentional with my breath.

Speaker 3:

So I noticed the feeling. The feeling is always going to be about like from I say always, maybe from about here down to your belly button, because the vagus nerve, it's closely related to that. But if you read, man, our standard of a book, the body keeps the score. This is the some of the stuff that he's talking about. The answers to the tests are out there. We just need to know where we need to be looking at. I don't want to build clients for a lifetime. I want people to learn skills so they don't have to come back, so they can manage the day-to-day better or and I'm sorry, not better differently, so they have the experience that they want.

Speaker 2:

Well, better subjectively. How's that? I would agree with that If it's better for them. Right, because I think that the other part too that you just said very good explanation of somatic. I think that that's good. Literally, probably within the first 10 minute of every session with my therapist, we actually go through all right, where are you feeling right now? Anything in your, your body, can you breathe it out? And I do that stuff and hopefully people know me enough that it's not like this is not woo shit, that doesn't exist. It's all real stuff and it really works. Fantastic, although I curse you, joe. You heard me, joe.

Speaker 2:

He doesn't listen to my podcast. He has no interest, probably, but Joe does that to me and I really appreciate him because it's I need someone to remind me of. Did you pay attention to your body? You talk about body keeps the score. I think that's one hell of a book, but I find that people either love it or hate it, but nothing in between. And typically I think people who want to recognize some of the trauma and is also able to take the heaviness of the book, they'll be able to really enjoy the book. But if you're like, you get into denial or what's this crap and this and that. Probably not for you, anyway, probably not at the right spot.

Speaker 3:

There's nothing wrong with that, just not at the right spot, just not ready yet.

Speaker 2:

That's it you know I think that that's the other part too is, you know, it says it hasn't happened in a while. Knock on wood because it's going to happen, because I said so. But I remember a time where I had someone will not name the service can you just cure me? I'm like, oh, let me go get the the wand. Oh shit, it's upstairs. Oh well, I can't cure you like I've never cured a human being in my freaking life. I've given them a lot of fucking tools in order to cure themselves, or that's what they perceive it as, but I've never cured a human being. I think that that's one of the things that I'm happy to have a firefighter slash therapist here saying the same exact thing as me. We're not here to cure anyone. I I've never cured a human being, but I will help you and give you the tools that, hopefully, will help you feel better I.

Speaker 3:

I use a similar phrasing and when they ask, because the questions usually uh, can you fix me? My well, first of all, you're not fucking broken because, honestly, you're probably doing the things that you want to be doing in other areas. You're already doing those things, either at the job or at home or someplace else. We just need to explore why it's so dang difficult to get those things applied into the areas that you want, to get them applied in right and how do we do?

Speaker 3:

that fuck, if I know we're going to have a conversation and through that conversation because we talked about that it's about that relationship, it's about the little pieces and here's a funny story um, the, the, the firefighter listeners will, uh, will appreciate this, and the therapist will too. But I'll just tell on myself a little bit. You know, as you're first starting out as a therapist, you got to kind of navigate your own language a little bit and figure out some things, because you don't want it to be automatic or robotic, you want it to be more genuine and authentic. So we were talking earlier about. You know, there's a lot of risk for the middle in just a normal everyday conversation.

Speaker 3:

If, if, if you're listening, and when my clients are having a question and I'm taking that question on, like hey, can we just fix the thing? Can we just go right? I know exactly what it is, can we just get there? It's like, yeah, we can't, because your system is designed to keep you safe. You haven't built up the skills yet for us to go through the front door. So if you just let me come in your back door, hang on a second. That's not what I meant. Actually. We're, we're going to come through the side door, we're going to come to the side door.

Speaker 2:

Hey, whatever man, you invited me to a sauna, I'm just whatever man.

Speaker 3:

I accept everyone, right, so I, you know, learning that language. Um, and my non-emergency responder clients, you know they're like oh yeah, that makes total sense. And if I got a good, solid emergency responder clients are going to be like you're going to come in my what? Yeah, no, no, no, no, let's back up. So trying to communicate to them that the most direct route may not be a straight line because your system rarely is but anyway, right, your system is going to protect this, right.

Speaker 3:

But if you've got to tell this story, you're going to want to complete that story. You're going to graze over the top of that to get to this. This is what I'm interested in and I think too many times therapists are so therapists in the emergency responder world are so confident that they know what's going on. Get really narrowly focused.

Speaker 2:

Right, well, it's all. Trauma, right, it's all, it's all.

Speaker 3:

Not today. Satan, You're not going to bait me in today.

Speaker 2:

It's not all trauma, for the record. We're just being facetious here. Yes, no, and I think you're absolutely right and that's why, like for me, when I have younger clinicians who say, hey, what do you think I should do to really learn, I said go work two years in the crisis team, mental health crisis team, any crisis team works. And well, what if I don't like it? Hate it for two years, doesn't matter, but you'll be able to deal with anyone that comes in front of you, cause I've helped. I've worked with a three-year-old in an ER and I worked with a 98 year old. And think about the middle ground rich, poor, indifferent, whatever. I've worked with all. But you also learn that sometimes you know like there's a first responder once said to me well, you know, when I solve problems, pretty quickly, I brought them to the emergency room and they're okay, and I'm like, no, that's not the story.

Speaker 2:

There's a story that goes with that Cause, if someone needs their foot amputated, there's surgeries, there's complications, there's cleanup, and then they got to learn how to walk before they get fitted with a book. There's like four that you don't need to deal with because you dealt with the problem in front of you. But therapy is the same way. I'll deal with the problem in front of me. That doesn't mean there's other 15 steps that are going to come up in a few minutes, but being a crisis clinician, you get that. Who wants quick? And then you say, okay, this was the quick version. Remember, there's a long version.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah. I communicate that same kind of expectation with all of my clients in a way that it's like I want you to get your roof fixed, that's some breathing room through your normal week. And then, once we get some breathing room and get some new skills developed, some new resources, then let's look at the foundation to see why the roof keeps leaking and you're going to want to leave, you're going to get through the honeymoon phase and you're like I took eight days of medicine. I'm feeling pretty good, I didn't need all 10 days. And then the snapback happens. Then we get a test. We get tested Part of my internship and then we get a test. We get tested.

Speaker 3:

Part of my internship I would go out to a men's retreat or, excuse me, a men's treatment center. And I do believe, because of my time in the fire service, my time as an instructor, presenter, all those things, my first intern site said hey, we'd love for you to teach anything you want to teach out at the men's house or the women's house. We had both and I said great, just tell me what. What do you want me to teach? And they said anything you want.

Speaker 3:

I said, awesome, I'm so excited. What do you want me to teach, and this is where the structure of the fire service started kind of trinkling in on the difficulty of the paradigm of choice. I'll do better if you just tell me what to do. So I ended up teaching for a whole lot of weeks. I don't know how many months now, but during my two semesters of internship taught conflict resolution and communication skills and a lot of that has evolved into a class that I offer to fire departments. We'll be rolling out this year of the fourth floor perspective, will be rolling out this year of the fourth floor perspective.

Speaker 2:

Okay, real talk for mental health in the fire service and we talk about the big f word a lot. You know feelings. What?

Speaker 3:

no, no, no, fuck, right, fuck, fuck yeah, oh, you should see the clinician's eyeballs phrase when I go.

Speaker 2:

we're going to talk about the F word today and the clinician's like well, right, and you know it's funny, is you bring so many good points? That's the other part, too is when I run a group and it's a first responder group, one of the things that they love to do is they we talk about different things all the time, but not every week we do this, but once in a while, like I'll share, we'll talk about something. They're like like how would your fellow therapist react to this? I'm like in horror, in absolute fucking horror. Um, and again, that doesn't mean they're not good therapists, for the record again. Well, we, I want to make sure we say that we're not shitting on therapists. It's just not their skill set.

Speaker 2:

You know, because I, because there's a running joke in my group because one day they I was cleaning, because I'm a sole proprietor of my company, so I was cleaning, and he's like oh, what are you doing? I'm like well, you know, I'm the ceo president, secretary and maid, and so we walk into the group after he goes sorry, steve, for the last 10 minutes I've been picturing you in a fucking french maid outfit and it's become a running joke. And I keep on feeding the joke and people are like and I've said that to other therapists and like they tell you they want to see in a French maid outfit, and I'm like you don't get it, it's okay, you don't need to get it, I get it, you don't get it, that's okay. And I think that that's exactly what you're saying is, sometimes we you get in the immediacy is okay, you can be upset about it, but when you think about it, it's a really warm setting.

Speaker 2:

Getting back to the point of what we were talking about, I love EMDR. I'm an EMDR provider myself. But if you come in and say I just want to do EMDR, I said okay, I'll give you someone who thinks that's going to solve all your fucking problems, because EMDR itself does not solve people's problems.

Speaker 3:

They'll make the trauma something they can go through a lot easier. But if you don't have the skill set prior or post doesn't really fucking matter, right, right, yeah, I, uh, I do get some of those and I'm I'm finishing up my certification in emdr and I only pursued that, really, because the site that I was working at was training other trainers and stuff. So I'm a blue collar guy through and through. So you're gonna offer me up something for free. I'm probably gonna take it. So, um, I'm a sucker for a t-shirt. Like, I'll do just about it. I'll do a lot of push-ups for a t-shirt. We go to FDIC and some of those conferences and, yeah, there's a lot of free t-shirts being thrown away, right, so right, um, I think what's and some of that stuff is, it doesn't have to be hard, it can just be relational.

Speaker 3:

And I sit across from my clients and I communicate a similar message, and it doesn't matter emergency responder or not. And it's an interesting dynamic because, when I was still on the job, I'm working with some of my people that I'm seeing on the fire ground. I'm seeing them in the therapy room and on the fire ground. But what about duality, dual relationship and all those other things? Well, it's kind of simple. I don't have any business bringing up that shit here on the fire ground.

Speaker 2:

Correct.

Speaker 3:

If I'm a battalion chief or if I'm an assistant chief, I'm not going to go. Hey Bob, I'm not going to do that. I got a fire to run, right.

Speaker 2:

Right Now. I say, bob, tell me about your feelings.

Speaker 3:

Right. So now Bob needs to talk to me. I'm going to listen and I'm going to redirect because I'm at the time or the place, but I'm not going to sit there and shun them for it and I'm certainly, uh, not going to not see them, because the fair amount of my emergency responder clients are only seeing me because they know me.

Speaker 2:

Right, they know me we've been on the line together and that's why I think that duality that you talk about, I call it the gray zone. I think that that's the gray zone of liability or the gray zone of ethics. If I go and I see Johnny and work, johnny works with Jane in the same department and Jane wants to suddenly go therapy, I said, okay, jane, you've got a referral from someone in the department, so it's obviously. We're not going to pretend that doesn't exist. If you're going to ask me doesn't exist, yep. If you're going to ask me about johnny, this is over. I'm going to stop you and there's no like, there's no warning. I'm done with you. You're leaving, yep, and same thing. Since johnny referred you, johnny everest asks about you. It's over. We cut it off.

Speaker 2:

And that's how I keep that ethical boundary, because I'm not here to fucking gossip. Firefighters gossip really well, I'll let you fucking handle that one, but for me I don't gossip about my clients. And if you're willing, if you want to come in here and do that shit, I know there's no like. The same thing with the group. People will share stuff in the group, but my rule there's a few rules we don't say sorry. And the other thing, too, is we can say anything in this room. Yeah, it's okay, you leave this room and you talk about it to someone else. I will never talk to you again. Never come to my group. I'm done with you because that's someone else's story. You want to tell your story? Go ahead, that's your story to tell. But you do not tell anybody's story, even if he's from oh, he's a department two hours away. I don't care. You do not share other people's shit and I have, yeah.

Speaker 3:

I have people driving four and five hours to connect with me who do not want to connect with me on a virtual platform and confidentiality. You know, obviously, the, that's the. It was huge, it's huge for me. It was when I was going to therapy and it was, uh, and it still, is still going to therapy, good for you. Every, every time, I every uh, it's once a month for two and a half hours and uh, yeah, that's just how I work and that's how my brain works.

Speaker 2:

So if you ever worked that way, but go ahead. I just want to put that in there because some people don't want to ask, ask ask, always ask.

Speaker 3:

Uh, unexpressed expectations is premeditated resentment.

Speaker 2:

Jesus Christ. That's a quote right there. That's a great quote. I probably stole it from somebody, but no one. No one knows who it was.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, there you go. That's why I used I got the pleasure of presenting at FDIC a couple of years ago and I have a leadership. It was on leadership and mental health and kind of an all encompassing, and I have a quote on the on my presentation that said leadership is kind of like pornography. It's difficult to define but we all know what it looks like. Yeah, but, um, I think that confidentiality piece is big.

Speaker 3:

You kind of spoke about this on suicide. I have responders and folks that will ask, will share with me they're feeling suicidal, they're feeling like they, um, you know, want to hurt themselves. I asked very explicitly, very, very directly I've asked that question a lot of times in my career, in both of my careers, but I've learned to ask. The question is do you want to kill yourself or do you just not want to be here right now? Because those things are different, right, and as soon as we kind of navigate that because you can see the, you're not sure, and then, when I'm not trying to trick them, to call the cops to come get them in the meantime, I'm not a big fan of that, by the way Can we just talk about why you're feeling the way that you're feeling and I promise you before you leave, I'm going to feel good about you leaving and you're going to feel good about you leaving, or I'm going to have somebody come and get you.

Speaker 2:

Right, and I think the other part too. I'm with you about the hospitals. Yeah, oh yeah. One of the things I tell most of my clients now for the last few years is like, if you tell me you're homicidal, suicidal, you know the ones we have to talk about. Yeah, I tell them. I said, but I've heard all of them at one point in my career, so I'm not gonna bat an eyelash and the last thing I ever want to do is send you to a hospital. That's the last, absolute thing.

Speaker 2:

Hospitals have good intentions. Unfortunately, they don't have the resources. So I'm not putting down hospitals, I'm just saying that it's not. You're better off staying at home and coming in twice a week with me, or coming once a week for two hours or whatever. Always ask, by the way. But I think that that's what I. I'm the same way about hospitals. So I get it and I I say to people that we all have expressions that we use sometimes. You know I've had clients who like some days I just want to fucking kill myself. Then you see the go to youtube. They open their eyes. I'm like, yeah, don't worry, I understand the difference between an expression and you saying I bought a gun, I these bullets and at 2 o'clock today I'm fucking offing myself.

Speaker 2:

Okay that's different. Can you hold?

Speaker 3:

this note for me. I'll see you later.

Speaker 2:

I know the difference. And they always laugh and like, oh, you get it. I'm like, yeah, I'm not wasting. Frankly, I don't want to waste the hospital, I don't want to waste your energy. More importantly, police and fire. As much as I joke around about certain things, they're busy. You're fucking little.

Speaker 2:

Section 12, as we call it in Massachusetts I know they have all different names, different states. It's really sometimes a fucking burden for them to do. I'd rather keep the resources in the community, but again, I'll do it if I have to. My other line that I say is but if you leave here and you still want to bomb an airport, believe me, I'll tackle you myself. Hold you down. If you hate me for the rest of my life, I'll live for myself. I'm okay with that. I'm okay with that, and most people respond to that too, and I think that what you just described is exactly what I think the therapists who work with first responders get. Be real, be yourself, call people on their shit sometimes and sometimes let people have whatever they have to do, and it's hard to explain when to do what, but with enough experience you get significantly better.

Speaker 3:

It's not about being perfect, it's about being present. I don't know what's going to connect with this individual. I'm listening to everything. I'm not. I'm not jumping on the low hanging fruit, because that that's not why we're here.

Speaker 3:

Um, and you know, early on in my career as a therapist uh, cause, Adam had a bit of a reputation in the firehouse and, uh, I had a strong desire that people performed at their best ability, their best ability, their best ability. And if you couldn't, it didn't mean I didn't like you. I think you're a great person. I just think you need to be a better firefighter and I'm going to help you, Not like I'm asking you to do it yourself.

Speaker 3:

And you know, with my clients, all of my clients, they have my personal cell phone number. You need something? You shoot me a text, you can call me, but I'm probably not going to answer that phone call. I'm a Gen Xer. I'm definitely not going to answer that phone call. But if you don't have an expectation that I get to you right away and I can show up how I want to show up, because it's also important for me after 30 years of starting to feel like a human again to continue feeling like a human and it costs too much If I show up for you, Steve, and I'm sitting there trying to drive and text because it's been six hours and I don't want you to feel let down.

Speaker 3:

I don't want to feel like I let you down. That's projection. I may let you down, but I'm gonna let you tell me that I've let you down instead of me guessing that I've let you down well, I'm a d generation xer.

Speaker 2:

Is that the same thing? I see the funk and pop so, but I'm a d generation xer, uh, so I get it yeah exactly triple h on the on the podium is weird.

Speaker 2:

I'm just waiting for the I'm waiting for the cross chop too, but I I don't know what's gonna happen. Uh, but I'm from that too. I'm like you know where. I find that our generation in general is truthful, straight to the point and a lot better in that way. Sometimes we kind of forget to be nice. Sometimes I think that happens, but we, we're getting better at it, we're just practicing number one and number two.

Speaker 2:

You, I want to say the same thing you said, but in different words what my clients want. They don't want me to be perfect. They don't want me to have an answer to everything. They want me to be human and do the best I can with what I have. And some days I'm on the ball, I'm like on fire. And there's days, just because I'm a human, maybe I'm tired, maybe I'm at a fight with my girlfriend, maybe I had tired, maybe I'm at a fight with my girlfriend, maybe I had blank. Who knows, I'm not dehydrating enough. Yeah, and if people can respect that, therapists are humans too, that's another part of a great healthy relationship. People say, well, you can't project shit on them. I'm not projecting shit on them, I'm just having a rough day. It's okay, I don't. I don't see the ethical book that says you can't have a rough day.

Speaker 3:

Right, I think the I think and I love what you said there. It's just so important if a big portion and if you're in this population and if you've been in it and around it for a while. There's a couple of different schools of thought and then demographically and geographically vastly different from end to end of the country, but there's a kind of a subgroup that you know. The certificates don't mean shit at three in the morning and we have a lot of clinicians that are looking for certification and some of us are still trying to push ride alongs and getting to know people. But that takes extra work and effort. It's not easier to sit in that class but it's easier in the way of I don't have to interact with other humans and if you want to know the fire service, you need to sit at that kitchen table, you need to sit on the back of that apparatus in that bay shooting the breeze with the guys shooting the shit, taking, taking a lump or two, giving a lump or two right, busting some chops you need to be real.

Speaker 2:

And in massachusetts I can only speak intelligently about our area because I don't want I don't know everywhere, some departments begging me to. Can you come to the firehouse? Just hang out at the table. If we're on a call, just sit around, have a coffee, whatever, just can we have that.

Speaker 2:

And the police are now like they're happy to have what we call jail diversion program, which has changed names four times, so I don't know what the name of it this week. Yeah, but you're a ride-along, you're sitting next to a cop going on a real call, and sometimes they're not related to mental health, sometimes they are. But then you know what they go through and the most important thing is sitting around the table going on those calls, you get to see the human that does the work. Yeah, and when people say you know they don't like police or they don't like this, yeah, stop thinking about them as roles, think about as humans and then realize the shit they got to go through. Because at 3 am when you call because you can't get out of bed because your back's locked up, well, they showed up, didn't they?

Speaker 3:

yeah, yeah, and that's a big challenge for our emergency responder clients too, because when we ask them like hey that, uh, lift assist, call that, uh, you know, whatever it is, call that you don't find is all that important, do you feel like that's heroic? And of course all of them will virtually say no. Ironically, though, when you challenge that and go, well, who else is doing it? Who else is putting the care and the effort and showing up like that's your own grandmother show, picking them up off the ground? And what's crazy is we'll bitch about those non cool calls, right, but, much like therapists, that's people's only choice. You are people's last line of choice.

Speaker 3:

I've went on a lot of lift assist calls. Can you put sunburn lotion on me? I mean it's crazy, but the reality of it is they called us at two o'clock in the morning because they tried to deal with it themselves this whole time. And you might get, we might get on the apparatus when we show up at three o'clock in the morning for that smoke detector battery, or four o'clock in the morning for a lady's cell phone battery that died. That's what the beeping was. And we, we see all those things and we smile, but the reality of it is they couldn't take it anymore. No, they've been taking it from about 12 o'clock on right, and you are their last line of defense and you're treating it as some bullshit. Look, I'm not saying you're changing the world right now, at four o'clock in the morning I get it.

Speaker 3:

But just because you're not being happy doesn't mean that you have to be mad either. You can just go, do your job, be courteous and go home, go back to bed, and what's really cool about that is if you're in the Northeast and you're working with firefighters, you better know what the term good Jake's are, because if you don't know what that term is, you're going to be way behind.

Speaker 2:

And that's so common Also with one of the things like they say about people who say they're culturally competent with first responders and then say, well, you know, we were at roll call when a bunch of Jake showed up and they're like you just spoke Japanese to me and they don't understand what's that. Well, how can you call yourself someone who has worked with first responders if you don't know what it is and you know, I don't know how long your hoses are? But when you start saying again I'm going to throw numbers out that I probably know are wrong, oh, I was carrying a 55 or 45 or whatever. I know kind of what that means. I don't exactly, but I need, I get the idea I don't need to be 45, what? No, I know what that meant, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

And so I think that that's the stuff about cultural competency is so important and being able to meet people where they're at, because if I, they have to respond like and I've had someone say that there's a therapist who was expert in first responders they said what do you mean? You were on a call, they gave you a phone call directly. I'm like holy shit really. And he's like yeah, I wish I was joking, Steve.

Speaker 2:

So, like no, that's the other part too, about being around the table, being in the co-response chair or whatever you want to call it is being able to learn all that, those little intricacies. You know the ui sucks because the fucking paperwork sucks. I get it, but someone else will hear that like, oh, they're complaining about this and they're trying to keep the community. No, you gotta understand, it's not. It's not like oh, he's a dui, he did the breathalyzer. It doesn't work that way. Oh, it was a transport, it was just a transport from the hospital because they were having difficulty breathing. No, it's not just a transport, because there's paperwork. You gotta still do go through the whole.

Speaker 3:

You know the receiving agency doesn't want the patient or doesn't have room for the patient, or there's a miscommunication.

Speaker 2:

And then fucking johnny hates to go to hospital. Xyz right, johnny has to go there because that's the closest one. And then those are the things that people don't quite get if you're not sitting around the table, because then when they say like, oh, we got Lucy again, or fucking oxygen dropped to 85. And again, I don't need to explain what that meant to you, but there's some people who don't understand what I just said. And that's the point is that you don't get to know this shit if you don't sit around the table and get to know it. And again, I don't think my guys might. Sometimes they'll say stuff I don't know and I'll go like I'll be perfectly honest, I have no clue what you just said, but because I've shown competency everywhere else, they're like oh yeah, that's not your world, I get it.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, there's actually more competency in the fact that you asked the question.

Speaker 2:

Right, but I think, but if it's basic stuff that you do every day and you're asking questions and you're an expert, I think that's where people lose confidence in your treatment.

Speaker 3:

I would not disagree and I think in some of that aspect and I'm next month actually teaching presenting at the Missouri Mental Health Conference. Oh, okay, presenting at the Missouri Mental Health Conference, it's clinical considerations, working with emergency responders, and the subtitle is Bringing Cultural Competency into the Therapy Room, and really a lot of that really kind of helps us build those relationships quicker when we can use that terminology and we know what we're talking about. Breaking it down really easy it's like are you assigned to an engine or a ladder? Well, that some of that depends if what part of the country you're in, because some places don't call it a ladder, they call it a tower or an aerial, or we don't get that far into the weeds it's a ladder truck, an engine. We're not getting into hose wagons or those kinds of things sometimes just on the ambulance for that night right right, and are we talking about a fire district, a volunteer paid on call, a subscription and dues.

Speaker 3:

I mean it just kind of goes on county city town.

Speaker 2:

There's a lot of different types, a lot of different types, and you got to be like.

Speaker 2:

I know the regional words so I can get away with that, yeah, but I but I think that that's what I mean like if I went to missouri I'd probably have to sit down and go hey, can I just go sit in a couple of firehouses, a couple of police departments, so I can understand the language here. Because you guys in missouri particularly, I know, is a more of a county-based police system where, for here, the counties in massachusetts have zero fucking like they. They're the jails here. That's what I can do. They have some, they do, but ultimately they're jails. And that depends if you're in st louis or if you're like down and I don't know all the small towns in missouri, but you're in a smaller town in missouri. Well, I live in a.

Speaker 3:

I live in a pretty small town. Don't, don't tell nobody that they live in a small town, but I, I don't live in a very big town, but I think a lot of that is the density populations, right, correct, our counties have a sheriff's office. That's got, you know, know, 30 to 50 patrol officers, the jail, some aspects, the telecommunications center and also in those things. So, knowing your, your area, I know your area to some degree because I have really good friends that work in that area. And if you want to know what it's like to work with federal firefighters in Hawaii, well, I know Shane in Hawaii. That can also right.

Speaker 3:

There's not a person almost in this country that works in a state that I can't call up and go. Hey, I've got a clinician that would like to come do a ride-along, but they don't know who to call or how to get started. Well, we're not even asking those questions, unfortunately. So I think in some of that aspect is I think the competency from this profession is important, but it also takes a ton to work in the other profession, to work with that, with emergency responders, and I think it just when you try to balance your schedule, and I don't know how your schedule is, but mine can get kind of crazy.

Speaker 3:

I know how many people I see in a week and a month and all those and I'm in private practice. Nobody tells me who or when or any of those things, right. So I think it's interesting that when we have those helpful comments or suggestions in the Facebook group and it's like, yeah, yeah, but give me the 40-hour class, yeah, but you're doing a ride along. And if you don't believe me, look at some of the rock stars in this industry. What are they doing? They're doing ride alongs and they're meeting with people.

Speaker 2:

Right. So yeah, and private practice, I mean, I get it. I certainly am a private practice myself, so I get that. Yeah, and there's so much I can say. You know, and again, I worked for about a year in Vermont, in very rural Vermont, not that most of Vermont is not rural, but and that was a different way of working with first responders than it is when I'm in suburbia slash urban Boston area, suburbia slash urban boston area, and then within, you know, an hour and a half of boston, you have some rural areas that are not quite vermont rural but rural for massachusetts, and it's a whole different ball game. You know, and you know mutual aid is big in those smaller towns and if you don't know the word mutual aid, then you're fucked yeah so um anyway we're gonna spend 40 minutes explaining it yeah, exactly, and I don't want that like.

Speaker 2:

There's like oh, you know, we did mutual aid with franklin. I know what that means. But if you're like not, you haven't been a ride along, you haven't been with a, you don't what the fuck is mutual aid? Someone needed cpr in the department. No, no, no, no, anyway. Yeah, we, I knew this would happen. I really liked the connection from the top. Someone needed CPR in the department. No, no, no, no, anyway. Yeah, we, I knew this would happen. I really liked the connection from the top. We'll see what we can do Maybe we'll end up having two episodes out of this.

Speaker 2:

I appreciate it, adam, but you know I want people. I wish I could go to that conference because I believe in the cultural competency part. But since I can't go there, how do I like? Not only me, but for my audience.

Speaker 3:

How do we reach you? You said you had in your website. Yeah, I have a new website. I'm on Facebook. My private practice is called In a Good Space, and the belief is that if you're good, it doesn't matter what environment you're in, you're going to be good. And my little logo. I thought it was important. It took two and a half years for me to decide on something because I wanted it to be right and uh, it's an atom. And sometimes the jokes just tell themselves right, uh, but atoms are everywhere. And the idea is that if I'm feeling good and I and I know who I am, I know I represent, I know what I stand for it doesn't really matter what environment I'm in. So in a good space is is that's the idea and the so Facebook, the Insta book, face, graham, social media stuff and my, my website is a great way. Uh and uh, my, uh, my website is a great way.

Speaker 2:

Um, all right. So what's the www? A good space, therapycom. So please go to that website. It'll be in the show notes if you want to click on it. Yeah, and the other part too. I want to say. Besides, let me get back to the thank you, but you know logos. When you said adam, yeah, all I can think of is your name and I'm like oh, did he do that?

Speaker 2:

on fucking purpose not on purpose, but sometimes the jokes just tell themselves, that's what I mean it's like no, no, okay, like yeah, again joking us, not really, chelsea, I'm joking, but oh yeah, I did that part. We're just to make it sound cool. I'm kidding. Please leave it as is, don't change it. But, adam, if I'm ever in Missouri I want to go see you, but I know I'll have to figure out where your town is. Yeah, but I will go see you. I wish I could go to that conference, awesome stuff.

Speaker 3:

I appreciate that I do a lot of work with the fools, if your listeners know what the fools I do. Free conference, the fourth floor perspective class that I was talking about earlier. My office is on the fourth floor now, um, in a beautiful downtown, springfield, missouri. I'm between Springfield and Branson. I live in a small town called Nixa, just south of Springfield, but I teach the fourth floor perspective class for free. Just logistics to get me where I need to be. I can sleep on a firehouse couch, a bed, somebody else's couch or bed. The work is too important. After September, when I teach at this conference, they're supposed to assign me some continuing education credits because my class also includes responding to personal crisis of emergency responders. So it hits a lot of that suicide credential for our field after September. So hopefully I'll be able to get some peer groups together with local therapists and there'll be something for everybody there I was going to ask you oh yeah, master for therapists, but it sounds like it's for therapists.

Speaker 2:

I was going to ask you oh, ems, or for therapists, but it sounds like it's for therapists.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it's actually for. It will be for both once I get that CEU part. But, honestly, if people are, if I'm speaking to peer groups or fools Fraternal Order of Leatherhead Society for those who don't know, sometimes when I speak or I'm talking about my background, I'm a firefighter as, or, if you don't know, emergency responder, those that's for those who aren't in the business um, but uh, teaching those classes for free and then if we can reach out to some local therapists, um, I don't know if you, I'm sure you do know who dr yalam is, of course, of course, right, I didn't know who he was.

Speaker 2:

I actually met the guy.

Speaker 3:

Nice. Well, that's a pretty awesome thing.

Speaker 3:

I got done reading his book the Matter of Life and Death, and I was so moved by the book I looked him up he was still alive and I sent him an email. And the funny thing about that is when I was sharing that in my group supervision they were all blown away that I just sent Dr Gallum an email. I'm like, well he's, he's just a, he's just a dude, just a human, just a human. And they're like, oh well, you should have him on on our podcast. The place that I worked at hosted the podcast. Notice that I don't know if you've ever heard of that podcast.

Speaker 2:

Can't say that I have.

Speaker 3:

I'm not going to lie, yeah, it's an EMDR podcast, it's a pretty amazing podcast. But they said, oh, you should email him again and invite him on the podcast. And I said, yeah, okay, what would we talk about? And then they're just talking and I'm like, okay, cool, I'll just send him an email so we'll just see what he says. And they're just blown away, uh, by that and it's just funny because I think a lot of therapists confuse confidence with arrogance.

Speaker 2:

In this field, those those individuals that get on that truck to get into that car, that sit at that console, already know they're going to win, because if they don't, right they ain't gonna do it well, and dr ervin yallam, for those who don't know, has a couple of great books and, uh, one of the books that, uh, we were I was able to talk to him about is becoming myself uh, which was a really good book um so, and when I say met him virtually, I didn't meet him.

Speaker 2:

He's in is Israel most of the time, but really good, dude. Anyway, thank you, adam. Truthfully, let me know when you can come back, probably like this winter or something. I'd love to have you back, man. Really good conversation.

Speaker 3:

I'd love to be back on. It's great to talk to you.

Speaker 2:

If you could explain, if you explain enneagrams for the first responder world, because I think I can explain it but I would be a little more therapeutic. So I think for the first responder world there's a different language that they'd get and I think that that would be perfect for another subject for us to talk about. Absolutely, absolutely. Thank you so much. Thank you, guys, and see you at episode 223.

Speaker 1:

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People on this episode

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Steve Bisson

Host
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Courtney Romanowski

Co-host
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Adam Neff

Guest