Step Away From The Cape, You’re Not The Department Of Everything

If you’re the one everyone turns to, you might be carrying more than you realize. We sit down with psychotherapist and mental wellness consultant Leah Marone to unpack the “serial fixer” habit—why it thrives in first responder culture and how it quietly fuels burnout, resentment, and frayed relationships. Leah works extensively with police, fire, EMS, and dispatch, and she brings sharp, compassionate insights you can use today without adding hours to your schedule.

We break down the real difference between therapy and consulting, then rebuild the foundation of wellness with small, sustainable practices: bookending your mornings and nights, using micro resets during daily transitions, and reclaiming self-care as single-task presence instead of numbing or multitasking. Leah introduces a practical rule that changes conversations fast—support, don’t solve—along with validation skills that help teammates, partners, and kids think more clearly and take ownership. You’ll hear how the fixer impulse can become “compassion as control,” why quick advice often backfires, and how to replace that urge with grounded presence.

Expect concrete tools and memorable metaphors. The internal “balloon” lets you notice pressure before it pops, and that shaken “soda bottle” reminds you to release slowly, not explode. We also cover sleep hygiene as the no‑nonsense cornerstone of recovery, data collection to challenge “dark cloud” thinking, and first responder-ready ways to downshift from high gear without losing your edge. If you want stronger boundaries, steadier energy, and deeper connection, this conversation will help you change your default settings.

To reach Leah, here is the link to her work: https://linktr.ee/leahmaronelcsw

If this resonates, tap follow, share it with a teammate who needs lighter armor, and leave a quick review so more first responders can find these tools. Your support helps this community stay sharp, safe, and human.

Transcript

Sponsor And Opening

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to Resilience Development in Action with Steve Bisson. This is the podcast dedicated to first responder mental health, helping police, fire, EMS, dispatchers, and paramedics create better growth environments for themselves and their teams. Let's get started.ai.

Introducing Leah Marone And Her Work

SPEAKER_00 0:37

You heard me talk about it. I'm gonna keep on talking about it because I love it. I've had about a year and a half, 18 months practice with it, and I still enjoy it. And it saves me time and it saves me energy. Free.ai takes your note, makes a trans what you're talking about a client, just press record. And it does either transcript, it does a subjective, and an objective with a letter if needed for your client and for whoever might need it. So for$99 a month, it saves me so much time that it's worthwhile. And if you do it for a whole year, guess what? You get 10% off. More importantly, this is what you got offered, because you are my audience that listens to Resilience Development in Action. If you do listen to this and you want to use free.ai, put in the code Steve50 in the promo code area, Steve50, and you will get$50 off in addition to everything we just talked about. Get freed from writing your notes. Get freed from even writing your transcripts. Use that to your advantage. Free.ai, a great service. Go to getfree.ai and you will get one of the best services that will save you time and money. And I highly encourage you to do so. Well, hi everyone, and welcome to episode 241. If you haven't listened to episode 240, it was with Morgan Yaskis. Now I know how to pronounce her name properly. It's really great. She will worked on a mobile crisis team. She did the co-response up in Alaska, no less, which is a nice little challenge and a half. But please go back and listen to that. But this episode, it's interesting because people contact you. I get contacted a lot for coming on to the show. And, you know, I will not lie, I did not read her whole book. I tr I cheated and looked around for a couple of ideas. So hopefully one day I will actually get to the book because you know it's one of 27 that we all have to read. But this one I really think is going to be helpful, particularly for you fixers out there. The book is called Serial Fixer Break Free from the Habit of Solving Other People's Problems. And I am honored to have Leah Marone. Is that correct? Or Maroney?

SPEAKER_02 2:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:47

Oh, I got it right.

SPEAKER_02 2:48

The first Marone, you nailed it. You got it.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

French Canadian me sometimes kicks in, but Leah Marone, welcome to Resilience Development and Action.

SPEAKER_02 2:56

Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

You know, it's a again, I I've I've always prided myself never to lie to my audience. So I'd love to say that I had a chance to read the book. It's in my pile. I swear that it's on the pile. It's just unfortunately, you know how it is in this field where you work as a mental health counselor. But I will definitely read it in the the the few things that I read online. Then you can get that book anywhere. You can go check it out if you want to. But if you go check out online, I read a few things out of it, and it's so amazing. And I think this is perfect for my audience. But now I feel like I'm selling you before you even talk about yourself, Leah. So, Leah, how about you tell us a little bit about yourself?

SPEAKER_02 3:36

Oh, well, thanks, Steve. I'm excited to be here and for our conversation today. I'm a psychotherapist and I'm based out of Charlotte, North Carolina. And I specialize in anxiety disorders. I actually work with first responders pretty commonly. I have a few on my caseload right now. I also do mental wellness consulting for nonprofits and educators and corporate America on just how to integrate wellness and mental health and boundary setting and burnout prevention and all of those things into, you know, teams. And so I kind of have this balance, I like to say, of just kind of the intimacy of individual therapy, along with then working with teams and companies and organizations. So it's been wonderful, but all under the umbrella of mental health.

Therapy vs Consulting Explained

SPEAKER_00 4:20

Well, I think that, you know, it I think mental health and coaching go well together, first and foremost. And sometimes people can't tell the difference, but we've talked about it multiple times in this podcast. Maybe we can just give a quick definition of the difference if you don't mind, because being a psychotherapist is way different than being a coach.

SPEAKER_02 4:38

Right. And I do. And I'm not a coach. I actually don't have, you know, kind of a coaching license. I'm a psychotherapist. I have my clinical license, which, yes, that is kind of creating that space where you are helping people identify patterns. You're helping them identify, you know, family dynamics, you know, the relationships that they're drawn to, that they that they have a hand in creating and nurturing and just behavioral patterns. And oftentimes, you know, we really like to go into the internal boundaries that maybe we're lacking or the lack of self-awareness, the certain coping mechanisms, things that we do to shield ourselves, protect ourselves, that ultimately I think in psychotherapy, we really try to tap into, we try to gain more of an understanding with. We try to not completely dismiss, you know, but we try to align and work with these parts of us so that we can build the relationship with ourselves in a healthy way. And then that transmits, I think, to healthy external relationships. So it's using a past as data, but not getting stuck there. It's, you know, a lot of times I think psychotherapy and just therapy in general and clinicians get this bad rap of like, oh, you're just completely stuck in the past. You're helping people stay stagnant in their past traumas and their past, you know, all this negativity. And it's like, no, no, no, that's our data, that's our story, along with the strengths and the resilience we've built along the way. But we use that then to kind of, you know, springboard us into making better decisions, exercising presence and really, you know, letting the best parts of us shine as we move forward and take risks and build healthy relationships. Where I think kind of coaching and consulting, and I do, I call myself more of a consultant because I'm not doing therapy. Of course, I have that background, but I'm not doing therapy when I show up and work with teams and corporations and nonprofits, but it's more so asking those types of questions that, you know, we we use in in psychotherapy, that we use in therapy and in counseling. And I know coaches do as well, where you're not taking false ownership. You are not helping, you know, you're not taking ownership of people's problems, you're supporting and not solving and really helping build kind of empowerment and allowing people to get their repetitions in without fixing and solving.

SPEAKER_00 6:53

Well, you know, thank you for explaining that. And being a consultant is definitely different, probably the right word I should have used. And the other thing, too, that I emphasize with my first responders, particularly that health insurances typically cover it, is also those wellness visits. I think that it's so key to get through what we need to do because wellness is misunderstood, also in my experience. I think wellness people are like, oh, so I'm unwell. No, that's not what wellness means. It's just means something else. Do you want to talk about it a little bit? Because I tell my guys all the time, but they they tend to get, you know, I don't know, maybe they're bored out of me. But if you can explain it a little bit of what wellness is, because I think it's misunderstood a lot.

What Wellness Really Means

SPEAKER_02 7:35

Right. I mean, think about it too, is just being in physical shape. Like if you haven't ran for 10 years and you want to, you know, this come this upcoming weekend run a marathon, good luck. You know, I mean, that's a that's a heavy load. And that's something that as humans, you know, we need the mind-body connection. We need the reps, we need to build the stamina, we need to train our bodies and our minds to be able to do something like that. And I like to think of, you know, we think of physical health and we know we got to get our reps in, you know, and we have to rebuild when we've taken some time off. But think about our emotional health the same way. We have to get our reps in. We have to be in shape. And many of us are out of shape when it comes to those self-check-ins, when it comes to, you know, connecting with ourselves. And then when we do have this moment where we're going on vacation, where we have this moment to pause, where we're very excited to be present somewhere, we're out of shape. We don't know how to integrate that in. And so when you think about just overall wellness, you think about self-care, it really requires, just like our physical health, kind of that consistency and getting your reps in. And I think what the one of the biggest things I've noticed, particularly with first responders and people that have just are so savvy when it comes to entering an environment, entering a space, dealing with people. And really, I mean, you're so attuned and being to be five steps ahead and assessing things very quickly, which is a superpower in my mind. But it's hard to turn that off. You're in a very high gear all the time because that's a necessity for your job. But you can see that transitioning out of that into other roles that you occupy is probably incredibly challenging. And so when I think a lot about even just self-care, wellness, just maintenance overall, it is, you know, those trips to the gym, it is, you know, certain things, but it doesn't require a ton of time and money. And I really love to tell people that, you know, something that is built into every single one of our days is transitions. And what I mean by that is even just transitioning room to room, transitioning from, you know, where you work to home, walking to the mailbox, you know, all of these things are transitions, some of them longer and some of them shorter. But we oftentimes we're so conditioned now to clutter these, to consume during these times, whether we're on our devices, you know, checking, did anyone email me in the past 30 seconds? Okay, is there something I can be productive with? Can I get ahead? Can I alleviate myself later? So then I can relax, but I know I'm gonna clutter that anyway. And so oftentimes it's training ourselves to capitalize and use these transitional times of the day and view them as micro resets, view them as times where we can get in shape with being present, scanning our five senses, getting in touch and being, you know, kind of really in sync with our current environment. We are, we're out of shape with that. And so that right there clears clutter, lets air out of our internal balloon, if you will. And I think it's a wonderful way to practice shifting gears, shifting roles, and just that overall maintenance of self-connection that many of us are lacking.

SPEAKER_00 10:40

Well in that short what minute or so that you were talking, I have like four other questions that came up. And I come prepared, I swear to God, people, I always have questions, but now she brought up so many great things. You know, I'm gonna keep one of them because I think it's very important to talk about this maybe after something about we talked about consistency. I think wellness and consistency go hand in hand. The other thing that comes up with consistency is you I'm gonna come back to the real issue after that, but when you talk about consistency, I think about it as self-care. I think most people tend to forget about self-care on a regular basis. I'm I can talk about this a whole lot, and first responders, as soon as they heard self-care, I'm pretty sure they kind of like I lost my audience, and that's exactly what I don't want because I think that self-care is a lot more than what people think. Getting my hair shaved, yes, I have a bald head for those of you who've never been on YouTube, but that's not maintenance. That's that that's maintenance, that's not self-care. It's something I gotta do so that I feel good or that I don't like feel uncomfortable having a haircut I never wanted. But maybe it's good to talk about a little bit of self-care and I how we define it and how we can help people go in there, particularly for first responders with self-care. They think that it's you know, either going to the bar and getting, you know, 30 rack with the boys after a hockey game, or they sometimes think of it as this go to a spa and sit there and get a facial, which both of them I don't think is necessarily self-care, but uh could be. But I like to hear what you think about self-care.

Rethinking Self-Care For First Responders

SPEAKER_02 12:19

Yeah. I think one of the defining things that really, you know, really, I guess, defines self-care is that it's not multitasking. You you're present with something, and you're able to again get in shape with kind of being where you are and what you're focused on. And many of us are multitasking during times that we categorize as self-care. So we're kind of missing the benefit of it. It's also not kind of a band-aid, a pacifier or a distraction. You know, you kind of mentioned, like we, you know, sometimes you go to the to the bar, for example. It's like we're working hard, we're going, going, going, going, and then we let everything pile up and we need this massive release. And we're kind of caught in this all or nothing cycle. And it's kind of, you know, when you, when you really take a step back, it's am I doing something to alleviate something that I don't want to actually face in a way that's going to benefit me in the long run? It's really reaching for those quick distractions, those quick numbing agents that I think sometimes get us into more trouble later. And again, it's not saying never do something, but I think it's just being cognizant and aware of like, what are my patterns? Am I kind of in this all or nothing mentality where I can't shift gears naturally? I need something to completely numb me in order to feel something different and escape. And I think many of us find ourselves in that chapter. And I think it is just kind of it's not shaming, it's not criticizing, it's taking that data and acknowledging that many people, especially in this field, have fierce inner critics. We have a critic within us often, you know, pushing us when there is something that we might do for ourselves, when there is something that might, you know, constitute as a boundary and saying, no, I'm not able to do that. That critic is front and center, saying, Well, if you don't, then are you really passionate about your work? Are people gonna think this about you? Is this selfish because you're not doing this? Are you not doing like that? We have to contend with that part. And I think that's the part that we try to shove down. It gets really loud and then we kind of reach for those distractions, which sometimes in the long run really don't benefit us, benefit us at all.

SPEAKER_00 14:24

I don't think it could ever benefit us yet. I think that, you know, the whole imposter syndrome. I have one of my clients who call it the gremlins. I'm sure that you have your own name for it, but I think that they're all there. And you know, when you're not doing the self-care, you're you're gonna be like, Well, you're taking care of yourself, you get critical of yourself. You talk about presence. I think that one people one one of the things that is misunderstood about being a this in a self-care method. I like to even do presence in something simple like a podcast. So this is not on right now. So yeah, pressing on the button, it's not on. Why? Because I want to be present with Leah. I don't want to be like looking at my phone while she's talking to me, making sure this is done while this is done. I think that that's what I tell people is that sometimes it's also like if you want to do some self-care, be present for your friend. Don't check your texts while you're talking to them. Don't go to email, don't go cooking, don't go do other stuff, just be present with your friend. And the best relationships I've had with my friends are over 39 years now. Can't believe I'm saying that. Uh like dates me a little bit. But my my friends, we just get on the phone and we chat. No one's checking their email, no one's watching a hockey game or football game or whatever. We're just with each other. And then an hour and a half later, we're like, holy crap, that wasn't fair. And to me, it's talking about self-care, sometimes just being present for someone that you actually care and adore. That's what I try to do, but that's part of it. But you you brought up another thing that I want to bring up is is self-care, like if I'm a first responder, if I do self-care, I can't drink, right? I can't do oh, okay. No, really. Oh, I like the face. If you go on YouTube, I loved her face, that was perfect. Because I I I explain to people like you can some people can handle their alcohol, good for them. I can't, I can't have more than one drink at a time. And if I have more than one drink at a time, the asshole comes out, and that's not a good thing. But self-care is not drinking, in my opinion. Using substances is kind of like a band-aid over a bullet hole for it to use good language for people who can understand. If I asked you for an example of self-care, what would you call a good self-care method? So, let's say, for you know, a police officer getting off his, you know, he's got first shift, he's got to get home, he's got to go take care of his kids because his wife needs a little, or you know, we can always reverse to men and women. I'm not trying to be sexist here. I think that what do we do for self-care prior to taking care of the kids, for example? How do we handle that? Because a lot of people don't understand that they need that transition in order to be successful.

Bookending Your Day And Sleep Hygiene

SPEAKER_02 17:02

Oh my gosh, absolutely. And I think, you know, it it's really, and this is gonna take practice just like anything. Think about the analogy of getting in shape. Because, you know, when you start to kind of practice self-care, you capitalize on transitions, you take a moment to look inward, whatever it is for you, take a moment of pause. It probably the first several times will generate some discomfort, might even trigger some anxiety. Just like if you hadn't ran for years and you go out and run, you're gonna feel that. You're gonna feel that discomfort. Your body's gonna be like, whoa, whoa, whoa. And your mind might be doing the same thing, but to stick with it and build that internal muscle. And I like to look at it as, you know, whether you kind of think about, well, I don't have time for self-care. Think about bookending your day. Think about having an AM bookend and a PM bookend, you know, just starting there. And so what I mean by that is even when you are doing the things that hopefully most of us are doing on a regular basis, like brushing our teeth, showering, those good things, you know, it's not, it's refraining from having your phone out, listening to podcasts, doing this, packing your lunch, doing walking the dog, drinking your cup, all these things at once. So there's a sliver of your morning, a sliver of your evening that you can just stamp as yours, where you are present. You're practicing kind of like feeling what you, you know, whether you're in the shower and executing your five senses, just connecting with yourself. That is a great way to start to kind of clear your internal clutter, to start your day off with kind of that touch point with yourself. And again, it doesn't have to be this elaborate workout, this elaborate, you know, moment, you know, you have to get up at 5 a.m. now. Most of you might probably are anyway, but it's just tweaking some of the things that you're doing to really practice that presence, practice that data collection, if you will. You know, I really think that transitioning when you're done with your shift and you've been in a very high gear and you've been, you know, really there to create space, serve, problem solve, troubleshoot, all the things for people. And you're transitioning home into a different role, whether it's a parental role, your partner, whatever it is, we miss that opportunity to almost debrief ourselves, whether we do that with a colleague, a teammate, whatever, even with ourselves, just kind of scanning like what worked well, what didn't, what's what's this kind of do I have an emotional hangover? What's going to visit me at 2 a.m. tonight? You know, just thinking about proactively some of these things and having that moment where you debrief, it really does help you transition, kind of get a little bit of closure before you move into now. I'm dad, now I'm mom, now I'm, you know, a wife, husband, whatever it is. It really helps and makes a difference rather than flying by the seat of your pants and and moving into a role where your balloons are already full.

SPEAKER_00 19:50

Oh, full and exhausted. And I'm not like the the there's so many things. You talked about bookending today. I talk about sleep hygiene. As being the number one priority for self-care. And it doesn't matter what people do, a shower, read a book. I know devices is the only advice I give. But anything that takes care of them. I have a 30-minute routine that people laugh about, but my 30-minute routine, like I put my head on the pillow, the next thing I know, the alarm. Well, maybe sometimes I gotta get up in the middle of the night to, you know, do what I need to do. But otherwise, I might put hit my head on the pillow and I'm like out. Yeah. Because of that sleep hygiene. I think that that's a good way to talk about bookending your day. One of the things you mentioned earlier, which I want to bring back to this because it's also the boundaries, and it's bookending your day with some self-care, is micro resets. You know, I think that what people don't understand is that micro resets can take 30 seconds to a minute. And you don't need to get a pillow like you talked about running the marathon. You don't need to get a Buddhist pillow and do it for eight hours or go do a whole Tai Chi or whatever. You can do those in small moments. You talked about micro resets. I think that's key because it's not only good for what we talked about boundary setting, but it's also a good way to just deal with self-care. Can you define it a little more about what micro resets can look like? What they what how you define it, stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02 21:20

Sure, sure. And it is like just a perfect example, I think, is you know, for if I use myself, I think I found myself at every red light, every every red stoplight that I was at, I would pull out my phone and just be like, oh, is there a news update? Did someone text me? What's going on? It was almost this like automatic, like I couldn't sit in a space for 10 seconds or 30 seconds at a red light. I had to have some sort of like distraction or some, you know, to convince that critic in me, like, oh, you're being productive. This is great. You're being productive. And I really called myself out on it. And I was like, you know what? Every red light that I'm at now, I don't know how many I'm gonna be at every in a give given week. But these are times where I need to train myself to just stop and look around and just notice. I could be at the same intersection dozens of times a month, but I'm always gonna see something different. I'm gonna notice the trees they're changing. I'm gonna notice this. And just collecting that data around me and taking a moment to pause and take advantage of that pause really has made a difference. And I've started to integrate that into, you know, when you are, you're transitioning down the hallway, you're eating your lunch. You know, some days we are multitasking, we have to, but the days that you have an opportunity to just be present with what you're doing, it really does kind of ignite you, pulls you out of that urgency, you know, gear, even if it's for 30 seconds or you know, 15 minutes. And it really does help us connect not only with ourselves, but just our environments, which right now we have a lot of competition for.

Micro Resets In Daily Transitions

SPEAKER_00 22:51

I smiled, talking about you know, the 30 second to a minute at the light and all that. I smiled a lot because I think that that's part of what your book is about too, and what people tend to do in the first responder world. Well, I have 30 seconds, what can I fix? And well, you don't need to spend every 30 seconds to fix things. Sometimes you gotta fix yourself. I mean, whether they say about the plane, put your mask on yourself before helping out others, right? I wonder if that fixer mindset, you know, shows up at red lights, apparently for you, but for some other people, for particularly first responders, I think that they show up in different ways. How does it show up for them in general?

SPEAKER_02 23:31

Yeah, well, it is. I think it's you know, when you are speaking with someone and someone kind of shares, you know, a hurdle, something difficult they're going through. There's some emotion involved in the interaction. And, you know, we're so conditioned sometimes because of what we do, the state of urgency, you know, especially first responders. Your role oftentimes is to fix and solve, like to get people safe to do this with X, Y, and Z. But when it comes to other relationships, you're out of the heat of the moment. And someone's sharing something, could be your child, could be your partner, could be a friend, whoever. And your brain is conditioned and automatically goes into grabbing ownership of that situation, comes from a good place to soothe them, perhaps, but also soothe your own discomfort and confirm that you're a good friend, you're a good colleague, you're whatever. But once we immediately go into that role of fixing and solving with the little bit of information that we've received from that person, we're kind of we're jumping the gun. We're taking ownership. We are not, you know, many of us claim to be good listeners, but we're not. I said many of us claim to be good. Oh, yeah. I was like, did I just claim that? No, I love it. You caught me. But yeah, we're we're then conditioned to jump in and fix and solve. And so I think the whole motto and something everyone can kind of practice with is, you know, in your relationships, particularly even personal ones, so that you don't have this carryover effect is support, don't solve. How do I show up and I support and I'm still there with compassion and I'm not leaving people hanging, but I'm not jumping in with, oh, just do this, or oh, when this happened to me three years ago, or hey, button it up and feel better so I can feel better. You know, it's it's refraining from that fix and solve mentality because I think that's one of the biggest things I've seen with people with high levels of EQ, high levels of empty and compassion, people that are so quick to be able to troubleshoot things. They're carrying this over in every single relationship and kind of creating these codependencies, these imbalances. And people are then relying on you, whether they know it or not, to fix and solve, structure everything. And we lose ourselves in the shuffle. And you can see that that's one of the main ingredients with the setup and how we show up in relationships and interactions as cyclical exhaustion. It's burning us out on top of the stress of your job. That's a high intensity rate of burnout.

The Fixer Mindset At Home And Work

SPEAKER_00 25:54

I mean, I I can't tell you how much I agree with so many things you just said. One of the things that someone shout out to my clients listening, because some I know some do. Some get annoyed with me because sometimes they'll say, Do you want me to support you or you want me to give you some ideas to change this? And some of them like, I want both. I'm like, no, sorry, you didn't pay for both. But I took around with them, of course. But you know, support don't solve is a great word because in your personal life, I mean, people don't want like I don't know you well, Leah, but I'm sure if I had a problem, I I could call you, you're not gonna try to fix it for me, you're just gonna listen to me. I think that that's what's lost because first responders are fixers. Let me add a layer to it too. What I loved about working on a crisis team in the first responder world is that you solve the problem very quickly. However, sometimes, again, going back to the analogy of we put a band-aid over a bullet hole. And I think that that's the other part too. I think that what fixers mindset in the first responder community, they I know they want the long term. I'm not shitting on them for that. But I'm saying that okay, I fixed the problem right now. I put a band-aid on it. Good, let's move on. And I know they do more than that too. So if you want to write to me and say bad things, please go ahead. You can just go in the comments section of my podcast. But ultimately, what do you think about that? I mean, what I think that when we talk about, you know, the fixer mentality, I think fixers want to fix right away, but that doesn't mean that it fixes the problem permanently. It just means it fixed it short term. Does that part of what you think also is a problem with first responders? Or maybe I'm wrong here?

SPEAKER_02 27:32

I do, I I mean, I do. And I I think it's also, you know, sometimes when we're always putting ourselves as the fixer and the solver, you know, it it is kind of sometimes compassion disguised as control.

unknown 27:45

Right.

SPEAKER_02 27:45

Because it's it's like this whole notion of like, you know, Steve, figure it out and feel better. And, you know, I want you to like get everything in a row so that then I can feel better. Right. And so sometimes we go in, even especially with our children, and we're like, oh, well, I'll just call the teacher, I'll do this. You know, don't get upset. It's fine. Don't worry about it. What do you have to worry about at age eight? You know, it's like button it up, fix it. I want you to be fine so that I can confirm that I'm a good parent or that I don't have to have this hangover effect of like, oh my gosh, what should I do? And it's hard, it's very hard. But we also are stripping people of this opportunity to get their own repetitions in, to get opportunities to have those processing skills, to build self-trust on their own and you know, kind of uh and sometimes deal with the discomfort of natural consequences so that they learn, they have their own flavor to it. And if you find yourself in conversations with a friend, with your child, with a colleague, with someone where you're like, I feel like I'm having the same conversation with this person every week. And I'm giving them the stellar advice, and they sit there and they nod and they're like, Yeah, that's amazing. I should probably do that. And then they don't activate and you're frustrated and you're like, what is going on? That right there lets you know that you're in a serial fixer pattern. You are trying to fix, you are trying to do all the work and grab ownership. And that person doesn't have their flavor, that person doesn't have ownership of their timeline. And that's for you then to emotionally regulate when it's not going against or going on the timeline that you wish. And that's hard and that requires patience, but you're also working extremely hard at empowering people to go through all the things that it is required to go through to make decisions, to deal with the fallout, to deal with the successes, and build that own internal resilience.

SPEAKER_00 29:31

I think it goes with your book about not solving other people's problems all the time. Sometimes you've got to serve yourself. My favorite quote is a good friend of mine who's gonna be on again very soon, Pat Rice. I'm sure he stole it from someone else too, but that's just I give him credit for it, is take my advice, I'm not using it. I think that that's what I see a lot in the first responder world. They give a lot of great advice, but they don't follow it, and it's great advice short term. But then the emotional hangover, as you talked about earlier, really shows up. I mean, tell me, tell me if you you agree with me or if I'm wrong. But I think sometimes being able to take care of other people's problems, that's why I became a therapist. I don't have to deal with my own shit.

SPEAKER_02 30:11

Oh, yeah. Oh, I think that's classic in our field, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 30:14

Just I think the first responders are exactly the same. That's why I think sometimes therapists and first responders really get each other because they're in the same mentality. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 30:23

I'm saying it's I I I agree. And it's it's interesting because it's almost like if we can have external structure, and what I mean by that is like, oh, well, I'm helping this person, I'm doing this, this is the role I have it. It's all external. It really soothes that critic internally with, like, no, no, no, you're worthy. People come to you, you solve problems. If they didn't have you, this wouldn't happen. Like you're this is you're good. People need you. And you can see where that kind of overlays and really kind of kicks us into this pattern of like, let me look look for the next structure, the next role externally. And it bypasses that, you know, uh necessity of having that in conjunction with internal structure, internal validation, internal work. Otherwise, we're left with anxiety. We're left with, you know, this disconnect. We're left with kind of that frenzy of finding things that can be our pacifier and our distraction. And it's it's not a fun cycle to be in.

SPEAKER_00 31:19

I think I'm I'm gonna, we're gonna lose the the audience, but I think you used the right word. It's the pacifier issue. What happens when your binky falls out when you have kids? Right?

SPEAKER_01 31:30

Right.

SPEAKER_00 31:31

I think that sometimes we pacify in order to fix it, but we don't solve it. And I think that there's a difference between fixing it and solving it. I can fix something that doesn't mean it's solved.

SPEAKER_02 31:42

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 31:43

Uh I don't know if that's what you go for in your book, but I certainly that's what I think about fixers is that it's all about like fixing it doesn't solve it for a long time.

SPEAKER_02 31:51

That's right. And I and I do. I mean, of course, you know, my book, Serial Fixer, is about, you know, boundary setting externally, but to your point, we have to go in internally first and really understand the internal conflicts we have, kind of these protective parts of us, what we are trying to suppress, what we don't want to unlock, what we are constantly medicating in in various forms or pacifying in various forms. And I I do that's kind of the whole premise of the book, where this isn't just a another self-help self-care book that's gonna give you all these symptoms. I'm like, no, no, no. I want to go down to the root of the psychology around you got to put the hard work in. You gotta, you gotta be consistent, you have to get an emotional shape. Otherwise, that's not gonna steadily transfer into the external roles that we play in our external relationships.

SPEAKER_00 32:40

I agree. I think that that's you know, you talked about, you know, the the boundaries. I think that that's one of the things that comes very clear when you're a fixer, you gotta be able to set those boundaries. Is there other pieces of advice that you think that we can get from this book that people really should take away from even our conversation? And not only that, hen hint, people go buy the book. Where would be also a good part to explain that that's why the book is so helpful?

SPEAKER_02 33:05

So I want to just share, you know, I go through a lot of you know, the whole support don't solve and really break that down. But think about too, just even this week, as you're listening to this, your job right now is to not, oh my gosh, I do this, what's wrong? You know, it's it's let's collect data. So think about the next few times that you're in an interaction, a conversation with someone. And I'd love for you to practice instead of right out of the gate, giving them advice, giving them options, prematurely relating, you know, all these things where you're in fixer-solver mode. Start with validation. And validation is, you know, can mean a number of things, but it's basically letting that person know that you are working hard to try to, you know, understand the message that they are saying verbally or nonverbally. So that could be eye contact and a head nod. That could be a statement of like, ah, tell me more, or oh my God, it sounds like you've got a hell of a week. You know, it's paraphrasing, it's validating, it's not trying to troubleshoot, solve, fix to alleviate maybe your own discomfort and confirm your own things. But validation is kind of that way that you're at a crossroads and you can become that supporter rather than that solver. And it takes a different level of patience, it takes a different level of energy. But when you start to do that, it's amazing how your conversations become empowering, collaborative. People start troubleshooting with your support on their own. And it's just, it's a wonderful thing. And it helps you clear up some space for you to do some of the work that maybe you've never had time or energy or don't even know where to start when it comes to you.

SPEAKER_00 34:38

Data collecting is so important. I think that looking at our own reaction to this stuff is so important. So I like that idea. And if you ever need one, I can send one to you. But there's little books, you know, those little black books that you put in your pocket when you're, you know, an EMT paramedic police officer, just take quick notes. Grab one for your own thoughts and resolve, like in your day-to-day life, not only as a police officer, first responder in general or firefighter, but also like a human being, because I think that that's a good way to look at it. And like, did I try to solve? Did I support what did I do here? What can I do differently? I don't know if you recommend that, but I certainly do.

SPEAKER_02 35:16

Absolutely. And I think too, it can be that it could whatever flavor works with you, whether you're just, you know, throughout the day collecting data on a one to ten scale, one being horrendously awful and 10 being like I'm on top of the world. Where are you falling? And you know that can fluctuate in any given hour. But just collecting your data, you don't necessarily have to do anything about it, but just checking in with yourself, taking notes on like how did I show up or what did I debrief or how did I transition? That's a wonderful way to start building, you know, your case and and kind of the foundation of the work that you want to do and the changes that you want to make.

SPEAKER_00 35:52

I think I go back to another thing too is I have too many guys, you know, particularly paramedics, but I'll put in the other ones police officers, firefighters. I'm the black sheep. I get the I got the dark cloud. Every bad call comes to me. And whenever I tell them, well, how about you write the data down? And most people do not report back on the data because they don't like the answers that they get from writing that stuff. Yeah, you got a crap day. It happens, believe me. As even as a therapist, I understand there's days I just don't want to talk to human beings afterwards. But I think that that's the other part about data collecting that you talked about. I really feel like, oh, maybe I am not the dark cloud, maybe it's just how I feel and how I collect my information.

unknown 36:40

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 36:40

Absolutely. You're kind of stuck in that, you're using one filter to kind of process your information and expanding that can be so helpful and it takes time, but and a lot of awareness. I think, Steve, the last thing I'd love to just like share with people too is that analogy I know referred to it a little bit of that internal balloon, right? It's almost like you have this balloon in your belly, and you know, if you just leave your body and your mind to its own devices, you're kind of in this pattern of like letting your balloon slowly sometimes or quickly, depending on the day, fill with air. And then you're you're gonna pop. And you know, everyone's pop looks a little different. But you know how it is. I mean, some days you're in traffic and someone cuts you off and you're like, all right, all right, I didn't love that, but go ahead. Your balloon's not full. But the days of your balloon is full, you're ready to pull over, park your car, get out, and like, you know, go to go to town with this person. And so think about like ways that you can be proactive and letting a bit of air out of your balloon and being aware that like when you have a positive exchange with someone, that that let takes a little bit of air out and kind of using that as this model or kind of this reference of like, am I going to sleep every night with a full balloon? Or have I worked on some things that are gonna let air out and be proactive with it so that I don't just you know, hope and pray I don't pop at an inconvenient time.

Data Collecting And Emotional Check-Ins

SPEAKER_00 37:56

Well, I think the balloon analogy is something similar that I use. Well, I'll say soda or pop or coke, depending on what part of the country you're in. I don't want to insult anyone, but I tell people that's the analogy I give about, you know, frustration, emotions that you build up. You just and if you're on video, you'll see it. I'm Nick, maybe you can hear it. You shake and you shake, you shake, you shake, and then eventually you say, Hey, can you open this for me? And most people, I know it's a Gatorade bottle for those watching. But the point is, is that you got to pop that bottle if you're gonna do it in one shot. But if you can tap the bottom, open it slowly, it won't spill as much. So you talk about the balloon analogy. I really like that. I used the soda pop coke analogy to fit in with to talk about how to let that stuff go. But as we wrap up here, you know, you talked about a lot of different things. I want to hear more about the book. Tell me where people can find it, where you know, how how can we what we're gonna learn? Stuff like that.

SPEAKER_02 38:55

Yeah, awesome. Well, you I mean, the cool thing is is that wherever you shop for books, especially online, it it should be there. So, you know, you can you can get it pretty easily. And, you know, if you've if you've kind of caught on to this reference, like this is not kind of a frou-frou, like just like, oh, you know, let's kind of casually magically go through these self-care words. No, like this is a a deep dive into the psychology. You know, I play division one basketball, so I use a lot of athlete references. And, you know, as you can see, just even getting your reps in. And so this book is is, you know, I kind of got some some heat from my publisher saying, who's this for? And my response was, well, I'm hoping it's for everyone. And they're like, Well, that's that's a marketing nightmare. And I'm like, well, maybe, but I really am trying to write this for someone who's in their 20s, their 50s, any profession, male, female. I don't care because I want people to be able to use this as a tool. And my whole hope is that people will walk away with this with things that they can implement immediately and gather data. It's not going to be comfortable, but that you will start to build more of a relationship and be aware of how you show up to things internally that will then help and translate. To you regulating yourself, your burnout, your energy, and more importantly, you just your relationships.

SPEAKER_00 40:06

Well, that's what they want, right? The publishers, the self-help with the crowd. And you like, and you know what really struck me with everything you just said, I think it could go for everyone. I agree with you. But particularly, I think about the high achieving people.

SPEAKER_02 40:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 40:23

Who need to continue to be high achieving every freaking moment they're alive instead of like sometimes just being down and being yourself. But I think that that would be great. And thank you for letting me know. D1 basketball, that's pretty impressive. Where did you play?

SPEAKER_02 40:37

Thanks. I grew up in Indianapolis. So I played at Ball State University, which is about an hour and a half north of Indianapolis.

SPEAKER_00 40:44

Well, I hope you know, like we should have opened that so that opened with that, because everyone would have been listening. But that's that's quite like it being a D1 anything is quite a power keg, if you ask me, especially in the United States. But I think that that's probably where you get a lot of that experience about, you know, the book about serial fixers, you know, breaking a habit from saving everyone's problems or solving everyone's problems, which is so we'll put it a link in the show notes so that people can go buy it. And also your website, if that's okay, what's your website?

SPEAKER_02 41:17

Sure. LeahMarone.com and you can find me on social media. But I'd love to connect with you. And if you do read the book, I'd love to hear if it was helpful or if it resonated. So yeah, let's carry on the conversation.

SPEAKER_00 41:28

Well, when I get to it, I will definitely read let you know. But more importantly, you know, this is something that is near and dear to my heart because I I I really hope that you can come back at some point because I feel like I typically have uh notes and I don't want to share other people's notes. But this is without the questions, this is how many notes I took while we were talking, which is usually, you know, like a few lines on the side. This is a lot of notes. So I would love to have you back to talk a bit more about some strategies that people can use, like we talked about. But more importantly, what does it mean to stop solving everyone's problems? Because that's important. But go to read the book. That way we can learn together. And I really appreciate your timely.

SPEAKER_02 42:13

Oh, it's been wonderful. I think we could have talked all day on this stuff.

SPEAKER_00 42:16

I agree. That's why you got to come back.

SPEAKER_02 42:18

Yeah, I'm I'd be happy to.

SPEAKER_00 42:20

So I want to thank everyone for listening to episode 241, and I hope you come back next week for and listen to show then.

SPEAKER_01 42:29

Please like, subscribe, and follow this podcast on your favorite platform. A glowing review is always helpful. And as a reminder, this podcast is for informational, educational, and entertainment purposes only. If you're struggling with a mental health or substance abuse issue, please reach out to a professional counselor for consultation. If you are in a mental health crisis, call 988 for assistance. This number is available in the United States and Canada.