Union Support Versus Outside Counsel For First Responders

The hardest part of getting help in public safety is not finding resources, it’s knowing who you can trust when the stakes are your career, your reputation, and your sanity. We pick up part two with employment attorney Bridget Truxillo to talk candidly about where union support shines, where conflicts of interest can quietly derail you, and why an outside employment law perspective can be the difference between getting steamrolled and getting a fair process. 

We dig into the nuts and bolts that too many first responders never get taught: reading your policies, protecting your rights in internal affairs investigations, and understanding how body worn camera policy can shape what you’re allowed to review before an interview. Bridget also shares how real change can happen long before a lawsuit, including putting agencies on notice and forcing policy updates that protect an entire department, not just one person. If you work for a government employer, we also talk about why suing the government is different and why strategy matters. 

From there, we connect the legal side directly to first responder mental health. We unpack why confidentiality is the lifeblood of therapy and employee assistance programs, what questions to ask a therapist about privacy, and how stigma still shows up in hiring decisions and leadership culture. The thread running through everything is simple: asking for help is not weakness, it’s how you stay in the fight without losing yourself. 

You can find Bridget at https://ladylawshield.com/about-us

If you got something from this conversation, subscribe, share it with a coworker, and leave a review so more first responders can find it when they need it.

Transcript

Welcome Back And The Stakes

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to Resilience Development in Action with Steve Bisson. This is the podcast dedicated to first responder mental health, helping police, fire, EMS, dispatchers, and paramedics create better growth environments for themselves and their teams. Let's get started.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

And we're

When Unions Have Conflicts

SPEAKER_02 0:30

back on Resilience Development in Action. This is the part two because we left on a very nice little note. I would love to contact more to Bridget Truxillo. Did I get it right?

SPEAKER_03 0:41

You got it right, Mr. Bisson. You did a great job.

SPEAKER_02 0:44

We were talking about that in the first episode. When we finished the last episode, I brought up something because I agree with you that unions are very helpful. But sometimes unions are in bed with admin. And if anybody wants to write to me and say that I'm terrible for saying that, well, prove me wrong and we'll have a different conversation. How do we deal with that? Because I think that's where calling an attorney such as yourself is so much more important because some of the unions want to sweep it under the rug because it looks better for the admin. It looks better for their promotions in 10, 5, 15 years, whatever the case may be. How do we encourage people to say that unions are helpful, but lawyers are even more?

SPEAKER_03 1:24

The way that you address it is that you've got to find somebody outside of it who specializes in the help that you need. Obviously, for me, it's these employment law issues. So harassment, discrimination, retaliation, hostile work environment. I've even had some cases where we've had to report things to like the district attorney or attorney general's office, maybe even the state certifying entity for law enforcement, like in Texas, it's T-Cole, Texas Commission on Law Enforcement, or so whatever your criminal justice certifying board is. Because sometimes, like for example, like they were violating a state law, like we have body worn cameras now. Well, most states have a law on how those are used, how they're implemented, including how a video can be used against an officer and what their rights might be in that. And like in Texas, for example, we have a law that says that you, if you're gonna use these body worn cameras in the videos, then you have to have a policy that addresses an officer's rights to the to view that. So if you're you know being investigated by internal affairs and they're gonna use a video, you have a right to view that video beforehand. And that's it's very important to know that. And most union reps and attorneys know that also. But my point being that I was having a conversation with some union people, and I'm I won't say which state or anything about it, but just to say that sometimes there is a conflict when you have a member who's needing to file a claim against another officer, and that other officer is also a member, and there's some political crap that falls into that. Like the clip, they they want members, they don't want members to stop paying dues. And then there becomes a problem of well, if we help you file that, so and so therefore they can't get won't get involved in that. And so, and is there maybe some trying to sway somebody one way or the other of, well, maybe you shouldn't file that claim because then they're trying to preserve having more members or you know, whatever. And I that came that's I see that all the time. And it's explicitly was told that by some union people a couple months ago, that it becomes a problem when the union knows who I am because I'd file member claims against their members. And I'm like, great, I don't, I mean, you can't dislike me for that because I'm also helping one of the other members and filing the claim. So great, your your hands are clean because you're not involved in it. But even the union reps should be sending it to me. Like, hey, we can't get involved in this, but they need help. Can you can you do this? And I do regularly reach out to union reps. In fact, if you want me to reach out to your union rep to introduce myself, send me their name and I'll call them and say, I do that all the time. I just I pick out the phone or I have a girl who works for me who helps me do that. We just like, hey, we just want to introduce ourselves. This Relady LaShio, this is how we help. Because in essence, we're helping your members. We want to help your members, and that's what you should want too. And they do. They want to help their members solve problems. And sometimes your dues can even help pay for me. They just can't directly get involved in it. But there is conflict of interest, there is some political crap that goes on behind the scenes or sometimes not behind the scenes. And unfortunately, that will impact your rights and I either your rights as a member or your rights just as according to state and federal laws. And so if you're doing something that's you have a problem that is employment law related, you must get somebody outside of the union to put eyes on it and have a conversation so that you can know what your rights are. But even something like, yeah, your your agency is violating state law because you don't have a written policy advising employees of what their rights are to view something like a video. Well, we reported it to the DA's office. DA office, the DA contacted the department. Well, guess what? They updated the policies, and now every officer has had to sign that update for receipt of that policy. And so every officer now knows explicitly what their rights are and to be able to defend themselves and speak up for themselves when they're being investigated. Because you know, you can't refuse to participate in an investigation. You're required to participate in an IA or you get fired right away. But you still have rights when you're in there. And so sometimes you just need a little extra help. And and we, I mean, like I'm that's one of my most proud things is that we effectuated change for everybody in an entire department because we pointed out a problem. And that's what we want to do. Look, hey, maybe you didn't know this, this was a problem, but you should fix it. Oh, okay, we'll fix it. And it was fixed, you know, the best solution. So, yeah, you need X, you know, extraordinary, meaning like outside of what your ordinary union coverage provides. And also, I tell my clients all the time, or or potential clients when they call me, are you in a union? Yes. Have you talked to your union about this? No, not yet. You need to call your union. Well, I don't trust my rep. Great. Call your union, like maybe you have a regional, maybe your FOP, where which is the fraternal order of police, they have a regional set department. Call the regional and say, Do I have an attorney? Oh, yes, you do. Great. Book a call. Because you're not having to pay for any of that yet. You're already paying for your dues. So before you ever have to pay me, you should make sure that you're exhausting all of what your union provides for you. And then also, if they say, Well, we can't help you with that, your your second question could be, Well, can you help me pay for it if you don't do it? Because sometimes they do. Sometimes they'll give you some money or they'll sometimes I have to take care of it. But like go through the union to for them to pay some or all of my fee. That doesn't happen all the time, but some unions do offer that. But the point being, yes, there's some BS conflict of interest, political crap that can interfere with your rights, which you mean you've you've got to do the work yourself. I mean, just make sure that you're getting all the help that you need.

SPEAKER_02 7:09

I think that that's the other part too, is you talked about something that's very important, is that unions are good. That doesn't mean that you can benefit from having a lawyer or anything else. And it's misunderstood that a union has all your rights. I get life and I got life insurance, I got health insurance, but I also have supplemental insurance. Not because my health insurance or my life insurance sucks, but having supplemental is very important. I'm not calling you supplemental insurance by any stretch. I'm just saying that it's okay.

SPEAKER_03 7:36

Sometimes sometimes I call I say that I'm like the Aflac of insurance. I think they say that. So if you who hasn't seen the Aflac commercial, it doesn't replace your normal insurance plan. Like I don't replace your union. I don't ever intend to replace your union, but you should have both. You should get help from both. And and and I work with them. I don't replace them. I'm not in opposition to them. Every single time I have a client that has a union, when you hire me to be your attorney, one of the first things that we're gonna do, when I say me, I mean my firm, because I have attorneys who very much are passionate about our mission of wanting to help all first responders live happy, healthy lives. And we always call a union lawyer, like, hey, just want to introduce myself. This is what we're planning on doing. You know, what do you know? And because they're always gonna be able to provide and always do provide important insight into what's going on that's gonna help us better be able to serve our our clients. So we don't work in opposition to them at all. And like I say, I wish I could reach out to every single union up and lawyer in the country to introduce myself so that they know we're here. Um, because I do help people nationwide, because I think the problems we all face are universal. And I don't have to be licensed into your state to give provide you advice and counsel on how you can improve your situation at work. And also it's based on federal law. And I'm I'm licensed in four states, so I can help you on federal law issues. So yeah, sorry, I cut you off, but to say, like, yeah, I'm like the Aflack of insurance.

SPEAKER_02 9:06

I if I was upset, I'd let you know. Exactly what you said. I was thinking about it. Like, yeah, but you're trained in federal law, that's across the country, as I understand it. Maybe not a lawyer, but I understand that maybe my second language, but I understand.

SPEAKER_03 9:21

I do partner with people in other states all the time. Like I'm licensed in Florida, but I have Florida clients. I live in Texas, but then I partner with, especially if it goes to litigation, which very rarely it very rarely goes to litigation, but sometimes it does. So we I have partners that do litigation in in Florida. I I mean I've done it in I mean, I've talked to people in Alaska, Hawaii, all across not I haven't talked to everybody, somebody in all 50 states yet, but I feel like we're getting close. But yes, it's a it's a nationwide

Know Your Policies And Rights

SPEAKER_03 9:50

universal issue that people I I've I've been on Canadian podcasts. They have the same employment law problems, just based on the laws called called something different, but ultimately it's all the same.

SPEAKER_02 10:02

Being Canadian myself, I I absolutely know that it's the same, you know. And for the record, just for those firefighters who are actually listening, because sometimes they feel left out. We we also talk about the the unions, particularly IFF, super helpful. I've had a few IFF people on, but nonetheless, that doesn't mean you can't reach out to someone like Bridget to say, hey, listen, we just need to work in tandem in regards to a blankety blank. So I just want to throw that out too.

SPEAKER_03 10:32

No, I have dispatch clients, corrections clients, firefighter clients, you know, law enforcement clients. And because what I do involves government, let's say technically a governmental defendant, or the other side of the aisle is a governmental actor. A lot of employment law attorneys don't really want to mess with having to go up against the government, particularly if you get to the litigation phase. It's harder to sue the government, it's harder to win it, it's harder to win against the government. But there's so much that you can do before you ever file a lawsuit to try and fix the problem. You want to put people on notice of the problem, and you want to be able to, and I'm gonna one that's that's gonna be able to tell you you have to make sure you say this, and you have to make sure you do it by X date, and we want to make sure we follow up in this way. And that's the same for all like firefighter, you're getting paid by the government, teacher, you're getting paid by the government, dispatch. I have city employees, like maybe you're the city secretary. I don't know how that works up in Canada, but like every city has like the mayor is elected, but you the mayor can be, I have clients that are former mayors, but because it's in all my cases, the defendant is a governmental actor. And so I specialize in that. I help people, basically I help all people who have are who who are being paid by the government with taxpayer dollars. And so, because when you're being paid by taxpayer dollars, there's public policy which I believe in, and you want to make sure that there's not enough taxpayer dollars to go around. We all know that. And if you're gonna pay that out to somebody, you want to make sure that you're doing it for the right reasons and it's you know, it's hard. So I believe in all of that. But I also believe the government can make and their actors can make bad decisions and they've got to be held accountable for that. And I ultimately we just want to fix it so it doesn't keep happening to people. I'm not in the business of of punitives, meaning I'm not in the business of, oh, you transferred somebody just because she was a girl. Okay, then I'm gonna go, I'm gonna take your job and I'm gonna destroy you and I'm gonna burn your building down. Like, no, put the girl back, give her her some money if she lost pay, and don't do that again. And let's train everybody to understand, like, hey, here's an example of what not to do so that it doesn't happen to people in the future, because I think that's better for everybody. And the positive ripple effects of that are tremendous. So, so yeah, I I, you know, I've had 30-year firefighters on the phone with me crying, no different than, you know, rookie cops on the phone with me crying. Like you when you feel like you give so much to the job like you do with firefighters and dispatching corrections and everybody, because I always say this profession is a choice. Very rarely do people are like, oh, you know what? I'm not gonna go be a cop today. Like, nope. It's like that it's very, very intentional. You give so much of yourself to the job. Your family gives so much of themselves to your job. And and that's the same for all first responders. You know, again, I've I've had grown men on the phone, you know, saying to me, I never thought this would happen to me. You know, I've given so much, my job's been, I've been in this so long. And what ends up happening is they end up thinking that their work didn't matter. Then they start to think, well, then I don't matter. And then I've had many clients, unfortunately, who say they either have attempted or have contemplated suicide because they start to think that their work life, their product didn't make a difference and nobody cares. And that's not true, absolutely not. But also why it's so important that you do something about it, because you want to be able to turn that ship around or steer it in a different direction. And sometimes that's not quick. And the same reason that people need you, and I know you would agree with this, but like I've had the therapist at times in my life when it starts to feel overwhelming. It's this thing that I can't stop talking about. And I mean, to my sister, to my best friend, to my like my husband, like they just all can't take that burden and they want to help you, but they can't. And that's why you should, you know, therapies. I think every human should have a therapist. And same thing with an attorney. Just the people in your lives just don't always have, they don't have the skill set to be able to help you, but there are people out there who have the skill set to help you. So I just think it's so important that you you do something, you take action and and get the help that you need.

SPEAKER_02 14:38

So many things again that you said. So I'm gonna go with a few things. Everyone should have a therapist and everyone should have a lawyer. Uh and what I mean by that is I have someone I can text at any time, and she usually responds with, you know, call Johnny or call Jane or call she knows the lawyers. She she's not a contract attorney, so she doesn't want to do contracts, she's not a family attorney, so she doesn't do family, so on and so forth. But it's good to have that. And a therapist, I'm in therapy for life. I'm okay with that. And I tell people, like, sometimes I see him every two weeks, every week, and sometimes I see him once every month or two because things are going well. It's not about having someone, you know, depending on the therapist. I think that that's one of the things that law enforcement and first responders in general misunderstand. No one depends on me, they can all live their lives. I'm just happening to be the good friend that could help them, who happens to be a therapist who has technique and has no vested interest other than yourself in that story. Right. And I think that I go back to the lawyer stuff and I I think about, you know, some of the things you said 30-year, 30-year firefighter, 30-year law enforcement, and all that. And I've heard those stories. Suicide is the highest that there's more suicides in the law enforcement field than there is in line of death duties.

SPEAKER_01 15:54

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 15:55

Deaths, I should say, non-duties, and but people have to understand that, you know. I think that sometimes it's because people don't know their rights in that field. And maybe you can talk a little bit about those rights that law enforcement has, then sometimes they don't realize they have because 30 years down the road, oh, I didn't know I could blankety blank, and I don't have a clue where we're going with this, but I'm just throwing that out as a question.

SPEAKER_03 16:16

Well, so two things I want to make sure. So remind me to talk about the therapy side of it in terms of legal protections. And you know that you're well voted in that even more than me, but just so I want to make sure we touch on that. But to cut but to say no, number one is make sure you know what your policies say. Like I know that's boring, but at some point in your career, and I don't care if you've been in it for 30 years and you've never really read your policies, I don't care. Read your policies because you have rights in there. You can like, no, you can't refuse to an internal affairs investigation, but do you get to you know dip file a written response? If they're telling you you've got to turn this in tomorrow, but is it 24 hours or is it seven days? Can you have somebody in the room with you? In some places, they do not allow anybody to sit in on an internal affairs interview, some places they do. And it's up to you to know that. It's up to you to to enforce that. And it's not because I tell clients sometimes, like, look, this is not always about you. Even when I'm helping you report a problem that's happening to you, everybody, because what's not happening, here's what's not happening, is you don't have all these employers and supervisors and whatever sitting in a room colluding on how they can come at you. That's just not how it happens. Yes, people are taking actions and doing something that negatively impacts you, right? But then they're living their lives. They're going on about they're they're going about their thinking about their problems. It's no different than if you file like a workers' comp claim. And I don't do workers' comp yet, maybe I'm probably gonna be adding it because there's just so much overlap in workers' comp and what I do. Is you it's up to you to follow through on that. Also, I highly recommend that you get a workers' comp attorney if you have a workers' comp claim, because that is a very confusing quagmire of a mess. And if you don't have an attorney, yes, it costs money, but you're gonna get more money with them than you would without. So, but all I'm saying is you follow if you send that paperwork through it to file your workers' comp claim, you're gonna have you must follow up with it. You must keep a copy of everything. You know, create a little folder in your inbox that says workers' comp. So you can just put it all in there. Because I promise you, you're gonna have to follow up on something. Where is this? You know, you follow up with your HR person, and most HR people, no offense to anyone, are horrible. And I'm not again, I don't really think that's an intentional horribleness. I think they're just overworked and undereducated

Therapy Privacy And EAP Pitfalls

SPEAKER_03 18:45

on everything that they're responsible for. So you must let legal rights are read your manual, know what you are what you're doing do not have to do. And then also when it comes to like therapy and and employee assistance programs, I see a lot of issues. Like I was talking with a therapist out of Florida, where she had an officer who had volunteered to be in the employee assistance program, where you know, like you somebody you can reach out to and talk about things. Well, obviously, you want people you're in if you're paying somebody to to be in that role and paying to train them to be that person and paying to have that depart that that division in your department or whatever it is, you you're you're obviously you're gonna want to encourage people to take advantage of it. It's a mental health tool. You you definitely need confidentiality in that because cops are a bunch of cynical bunch. I mean, they're all all first responders givecome cynical, and you they worry about the confidentiality or is just gonna come back and bite me in the butt. Well, this one guy, it's employee assistance program and the officer sharing shared something where he was like violated policy. Well, what are you supposed to do about that? Are you supposed to report him? I mean, obviously you have an obligation to report things where they're gonna hurt themselves or others. But if you go tattle on this guy where he vote violated a policy, and it has nothing to do with hurting himself or others, then you're destroying that program because there's no confidentiality. Well, he didn't report it. It came out later that he didn't, and he got disciplined. I think he got fired. You just crushed, destroyed your employee assistance program. You might as well just shut it down because nobody's gonna come to you for help. Um, but one of the things I do want to say about therapy is you can ask your therapist, is this confidential? Can my is my department gonna get these records? Therapists know how to answer that question. Therapists know, like my therapist used to, we've talked about this before. And she's like, she takes notes in a very specific way. So there's really not that much that's discoverable. Yes, that could come out in trial, even though a very good plaintiff's lawyer is gonna fight like heck to prevent that from ever being disclosed. And even then you can limit it. But therapists know how to answer that question, they're gonna be able to describe to you what your rights are. And if a good way to say is if you want to know what your rights are, ask. Like, is this confidential? Does my employer get to see these notes? If you're being paid by the department, I get it. You would worry about that. I would have too. You can ask that question. And the usual answer, and you can ask you, you can fill in on this, is no, they can't get your records because it's confidential in the same way that as your attorney, they can't get it from me. There's always that what if. But for the most part, no, it's confidential. But I think that's a big one too, where I tell people like, go see a therapist, get over yourself. I don't care if you think it's hippy-dippy. I always say it's the rule of threes. When I wanted my kids to eat broccoli, I maybe I fed it to them. No, they didn't like it the first time, but we tried it three times. Guess what? My kids eat broccoli. They don't choose broccoli pizza or anything, but they eat broccoli. So just go freaking try it. Try it three times. Get over yourself, let leave your ego at the door, and you'll be happier and healthier before. But certainly I would love for you to pick up on that aspect of what of competition therapy.

Sponsor Break Deemed Fit

SPEAKER_02 22:05

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Therapist Privilege And Subpoenas

SPEAKER_02 23:05

me be very clear about anyone who's ever I can speak intelligently of Vermont and Massachusetts. That's where I've practiced, so I can say that legally. The rest of it I think is similar across the country, but I don't want to pretend I know shit I don't know. So I always say, I'll tell you what I know. In Massachusetts, they can subpoena my records, and only a judge can subpoena my records, and I can redact anything I want. And if they say this is not useful, we'll put you on the stand. I can say client therapist privilege, and I don't have to speak as long as it's not suicide, homicide, or endanger of the community. And this is very and endangering the community is like, oh, I'm fucking done with this is not endangering the community, you're just fucking pissed off. Right. Uh the the endangering the community has to be very specific, it's gotta be a real threat, it's gotta be something that can be taken out. There's a lot of legal stuff where I can bullshit like I can tell people like you no, I that this is not reportable. But I think that what I tell people is that if you're like you can talk to your lawyer because there's a client, there's a uh client therapist for client lawyer privilege there. With me, Lisa telling me you're gonna go shoot up a school or you're gonna go hurt yourself. I got nothing to say. Yeah, I had a particular case that I'm gonna save the department. I'm just gonna say it was a department who asked me about a client who I know what they were going for. They weren't going for his mental health, they were going for something to destroy his character. What I did is I redacted everything that would maybe go after his character and just talked about, you know, this is what's happening with his work. This is what's happening. And the lawyer for the state was really pissed off. You can't do that. I'm like, give me a you can talk to the lawyer at the licensing board that I work with, and you can talk to my um NBCC. I'm allowed to do all these things. Yeah, my client got the disability he deserved. It was because I protected my clients, and a good like that's the other part, too. Is if you talked about mental health counselors, get a vetted first responder mental health therapist because they're gonna know how to protect you the most you can. If they read my notes, most people go like your notes say shit. Like, yes, there's a point to that. Yeah, then they can't do anything because my notes say shit. So I I I don't know if that helps, but I guess it's I'm making it my interview now, but I just want to make sure, and I and I'm 99% sure this goes across the country and can't I this is not a singularly Massachusetts Vermont thing, but because someone says to me, Well, in Idaho, there's this claw, and I'm I don't know all the clauses, I will admit that. Neither do I, but federally on the NBCC standpoint, I don't have to report shit unless it's those three things, and the third one has to be extremely specific. It can't be like somebody just want to blow up, like, yeah, you want to blow up. Okay, whatever. I don't give a fuck. You gotta be able to handle that. So I don't know if that helps you in this,

How A Legal Strategy Session Works

SPEAKER_02 26:00

but that's the question.

SPEAKER_03 26:00

I think well, I just think there's so much overlap in like when somebody, by the time somebody needs me, they need a therapist. And I tell all my clients, like, go, don't just rely on me, because yes, we're gonna listen to you. And I think that in and of itself is a therapeutic tool, is just having somebody that's listening to you, hears you, acknowledges what you're going through, and then talks through, like, yes, you can do that. Just give you like because when I work with somebody, the very the only way that I start working with somebody is I don't know, I very rarely do I say, okay, I'm gonna start being your lawyer right now, I'm gonna go file some things for you. I'm like, no, I can only get so much information you got that initial 30-minute phone call. And then we're gonna say, Yep, let me look now. You're gonna hire me to start helping. That first level of working with me is what I call a consultation where you send me everything. Let's say me, you send us my firm, everything. We read everything you send us, audio, he listened to it, audio files, everything. And then we come back and have what we call a strategy session. We say, okay, here we've looked at everything you sent us. Sometimes we have to get some extra follow-up, need this. Okay, now we'll have our strategy session. And we talk through, okay, based on everything you've sent me, here's the cold, hard facts. Maybe I talk your union union lawyer, maybe not. And here's what I think you should do. And we write it down, and I give that to you in writing, whether you and whether you hire me to start taking action on your behalf or not, because I know I I designed it that way on purpose, because I needed that so badly when I was at the sheriff's office. I had a union, great for what they did. I did not trust them with the issues that I was going through. And I didn't know anybody like me to call. And so I very specifically designed this, that level of service to start because I want you to have a written, black and white, cold, hard plan of action where I say, here you go, do with what you want. You don't want to hire me after that? That's okay because I know I've helped you. I 100% believe that giving you that is helping you. And then, of course, you're like, okay, and if you want to hire me to start doing that for you, then that's the second level where we move into legal representation. But I just believe it's that by the time somebody says, somebody comes to me, they need me, they need you. And both of us are listening. And for me, it's then, okay, what is the plan of action? Certainly, you have your own version of plans of action for people. I'm sure, I'm guessing, I don't know. But also to say, like I have talked to therapists across the country. When I go speak at conferences, I always like to connect with other people who are speaking because we're all serving the same community. And especially people in the mental health, like with you as a therapist, like you're you're gonna have clients that need somebody like me. And I want to make sure that if I can help, that you know that I'm not here as a resource. And so I've talked with therapists in many different states. Yes, every state has their own certifications, but and I'm not a therapist and cannot speak to exactly what those laws are in every state, just like I can't speak to workers' comp in every state, because it's literally there's 50 different versions. But ultimately, it's about the same. And when it comes to what is discoverable, what you could get out of a subpoena, is there are a lot of protections for the patient, for the clients, for you, like for your patient, my client, same person, of protections so that because confidentiality is very, very important. And and we're both helping, again, we're both coming at this to try and help people alleviate mental health problems.

SPEAKER_02 29:23

I think that you said it best. My my point is always like I build the relationship. You talk about how your process works. I get a little bit about building the relationship. Yes, I ask pointed questions, but I build a relationship. Sometimes I have a lot of hockey stuff on my wall, got some football stuff some saying, so people build the relationship based on that. And I think that that's how you grow the relationship as a therapist because first responders do not want a robot. Number one. Number two, one of the things that I talk about legally or not, or whatever you want to call it, and I don't want to pretend I'm a lawyer. There's been a time where someone was applying to be in a department. Again, I will save the department. And the chief had gone, gave me a call. I got all the releases and all that. He's like, Well, she says that she's been in therapy for blank years, I can't remember. And I said, Okay. And he's like, Well, like why can she be qualified to be a cop? I'm like, listen here, buddy. I live in this community, I know what's right for this community, and I want this community safe. Do you think for half a fucking second I would recommend someone who I think will be unstable in the community or for your department? That's your that's your discrimination, not mine.

SPEAKER_01 30:39

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 30:39

And uh good news is the chief, we don't talk too often, I'll be perfectly honest with you. But at the same time, the ch that that person got the job and has been very successful. It's been blank years again, trying to protect my client here. Yeah, and has been hey, good, hey, good news, she's never gotten a problem in the community due to her mental health issue. The point is, is sometimes you got to be able to like for me, it's like basically also being a human. Like, I live in this community. Why the fuck would I put someone who's unstable in the community to protect me? That's the dumbest thing in the world.

SPEAKER_03 31:14

Right. And I obviously we could talk all day long about how there is still a lot of stigma around getting help. And I don't, I think talking to us, like, why would you not commend that? Like, oh, you're seeing a therapist, something must be wrong with you. No, how about I just want to stay being mentally well? That it's no different. I keep saying it coming back to this like teeth thing, but it it's no different than you don't brush your teeth once in your life and be like, check, did that, done. Nope.

SPEAKER_01 31:42

Right.

SPEAKER_03 31:42

We're supposed to brush our teeth morning and night so that we can prevent tooth decay and have teeth and not be snaggled, you know, and like a crackhead. I mean, I was I'm about to say no offense to crackheads except crackheads are gross. I lived in, I bought crack for a living for three years and it's very disgusting. And they really do lose teeth. And but it's it's preventative. Like I feel like every chief would say, absolutely, go talk to your therapist. You know, I it's none of my business, but if you're just seeing a therapist, that does not mean that you're a danger to the community or to your or to yourself. And stigmatizing it, I'm glad at least he had that conversation with you because hope maybe that positively changed maybe the their outlook or their judgmentalness of someone who is seeking therapy. But that's why I like I say, look, I'm I'm capable of a lot. I'm raising three kids, I'm running a business. I've freaking decided to try out for SWAT team, which was freaking nuts. Bought crack for a living for three years. It was disgusting. I mean, I I'm capable of a lot. But I also know there's no sense that I do this all on my own. And there's no weakness in saying that I've had a therapist. It's made me a better wife, a better mom, a better sister, a better daughter, like just a better, happier, healthy human. And we do take on a lot of burdens with people. Even I'm not a cop anymore. I'm gonna talk to cops all the time, or you know, just law enforcement. I mean, corrections officers are the ones that I feel breaks my heart all the time because they're in such a toxic environment. And and they still go to work every day. Like, God bless them. But I guess I need, I need to work out so I can let go of those things. I need, like, I haven't talked to my therapist in a while, but I know she's just a click away when I need to book that. And like I pay for a business coach. Sometimes I think, isn't it? Am I embarrassed to say that I have a business coach? And I'm like, no, because I can't do this by myself. I have got to bounce this off somebody. Or, well, I'm not gonna hire somebody for this. I'm just gonna ask this other person to take on more work. My business coach was like, Why would you do that? You're taking her away from what she does best and what she likes the most. I'm like, Oh, you're right. Okay, well, I'll just have this, I'll just hire another part-time person for that. I'm gonna spend the money anyway. And and I I probably would have. I did mess it up. I just got to really look. I opened up my email this morning, and one of the longest emails I've ever seen. I didn't read it all. And then I responded back to her and I said, Wow, that's a long email, but I hear you. And I said, I apologize for anything that I did. I'm your boss. I'm the one paying you. I apologize for anything that I did that made this harder for you. Let's make sure we have our meeting this week so we can talk it through. I don't think I'm 100% responsible for that, but I think that's the most important thing I could say is I'm sorry for anything that I did that made

Leadership Training And Integrity Gaps

SPEAKER_03 34:20

this harder.

SPEAKER_02 34:21

I mean, here's here's the thing. We gotta we gotta kind of wrap up here, but I have so many more. Bridget, how about we we definitely think about doing something in the near future again together, first and foremost? I think I this is I want to put it on the table right now because I can talk about that for like you part of being a leader in this first responder world, police, fire, anywhere when you become an admin leader, part of it is to protect and serve your staff underneath you and protect them. Why the fuck does that not include mental health? Why does that not include, hey, listen, you should talk to a lawyer? Because this seems like you know, hey, I'm I'm out of it's out of my hands, but can you go check out on the lawyer? Maybe they can help you. That's what the job, when you sign up to be a lieutenant, a captain, a chief battalion, or a chief or whatever, that is part of your responsibility. So I can go on and on about that because that is me off.

SPEAKER_03 35:19

And they get almost no training. And uh, and it really is almost it's like that analogy of okay, you brush your teeth once and you're done. You become a supervisor. You have to take like an intro supervisor course, and then that's it.

SPEAKER_01 35:31

Right.

SPEAKER_03 35:32

That's not enough. I think that's one of the biggest failures in all of first responder culture and and and str and and hierarchy is you should get regular leadership training. And what I mean by leadership is learning the tools of how to really create a successful team and support your team, and also give you the tools and resources to know like when you're needing to go up against somebody else that might get you like, they're not gonna like it, but I'm gonna do it anyway. You know, that's what the definition of integrity is. Doing, you know, what do you do when nobody's looking? And just don't they don't get enough training on it? And it just doesn't come naturally to most people. So and that's okay. Like I help I still have a business coach, and I've been doing this for six years now, and I regularly pay my business coach because I just don't know how to do all this and I just need somebody to help me. So we could keep going and going, I know.

SPEAKER_02 36:22

But like I said, we need to do another episode together, probably like a two-parter again. Yeah, bottom line, whatever you everything you said is ringing a lot of bells for me and a lot of stuff that we can talk about. Asking for help is not weakness, not asking for help is, but that's just my point of view. Of course, people it's because you're therapist. No, it's because it's in life. I need help. No one's ever made it on their own, and no one makes it out alive, so might as well fucking get some help. Yeah, um, you know, you said you're you said your age uh earlier. I'm gonna be 51 and in the in a few days myself.

SPEAKER_01 36:57

Oh, happy birthday.

SPEAKER_02 36:59

So I get the age thing, and I think sometimes that wisdom can kicks in a little too late, but that's just me. One of the things that we love to do in this show, sorry a few episodes ago, and I love this is the guests before

Misunderstood Moments And Closing Links

SPEAKER_02 37:10

you came up with a question. Their question was actually something really hard to answer in the sense that it was disgusting. In your case, it's uh kind of an interesting one because we've talked about it a little bit already, but I think it's really relevant, and I'll look down because I'm not much of a reader in the for my questions. But this one was what do people most misunderstand about you? And I think that's a great question for a lot of people.

SPEAKER_03 37:33

I guess what's immediately coming to mind, and I feel like I have to like have a qualifier on it, which is a whole therapy session, probably, of saying like that people think because I've done a lot that nothing hurts my feelings or that I can't be hurt. And that is not true at all. I mean, my sister, I mean, we were growing up, she always thought that I was so tough. And the only way that she could get to me was to say something really, really mean. And like I think one time, and I love my sister, I mean, we talk almost every day, and we've talked about this many times, where like one time she was really mad at me, and she said something like, Well, it's no sense what his name cheated on you, you deserved it. And I'm like, What? Like, I couldn't believe she said that. And and even now, like if somebody, you know, like with my husband, like he'll you know, knee-jerk response and say something, and I'm always like, I would never say that to you. Because and so people think, I guess that's the long way of answering it is that yes, I've done a lot, but I mean, you can still hurt my feelings just like anybody. But I, you know, I work real hard to take care of myself and go walk it off and like look. And one of the things my therapist is the one of the most valuable lessons I learned from my my therapist is I'm not responsible for other people's actions or reactions. And the other takes a lot of work because when somebody does something hurtful, like that guy who accused me of lying about my law enforcement history and that 18 years of being an attorney isn't long enough to be a credible legal source. Like, yeah, that's like are you kidding me? Like, yeah, it made me really mad. And obviously, uh, it bothers still bothers me enough that I'm bringing it up. And like I'm not responsible for him. I'm not like, even if I do something horrible like and I make my husband mad, and like I did something wrong, I'm still not responsible for him getting choosing to be mad about it. But that just takes a lot of work. And but I mean, I'm willing to do the work. I'm willing to look at something hard and say, well, what could I have done better? And I can do that better next time. But so that's a really long way of saying that, yeah, I've done a lot. You have something on SWAT team, but you can still hurt my feelings just like the next person.

SPEAKER_02 39:45

I like your answer. I think that it's the same. I I really think that that's something that I'd love people to understand about me, even though apparently I have a lot of emotions, according to my girlfriend. I also think that that's something that they tend to forget is you can have done the hard part. That doesn't mean other things can't hurt you. But now I'm gonna ask you, what should be the question I ask my next guest who comes on? What's the question you think they should be able to ask? Answering.

SPEAKER_03 40:12

What is one thing or or way that you wish you were taking care of yourself that you aren't doing?

SPEAKER_02 40:19

I like that. I think that there's so many answers I have for that, you know. But I think that that's a very good question for a lot of people. So I really appreciate that. I as we are blowing through time, like I said, let's do this again soon. How do we reach you again? I know we talked about in the first episode or the first part of the episode. Want to do this part too.

SPEAKER_03 40:40

The best way, yes, sorry, the my website, LadyLawshield.com. If you need me, that's where you can book a call. Well, I say me, my firm. I mean, I have people who are very dedicated to serving this community, and I love the team that I've I've been we've been growing and and the people that I'm putting on my and my firm to work with you and with me. So we need to book a call. It's uh on our website. That's the top of the page. First thing you see, just so happens to be orange and blue on the page, Go Gators. If you didn't miss the first episode, I'm a University of Florida grad and I love being in the orange and blue nation. Okay. And if you social media, you know, people like getting information in different ways. Is it if it's a newsletter, I highly recommend you follow me, you know, sign up for my newsletter. It's once a month. I try and give you little tips so you know how to take care of yourself from this employment law crap. And then, but if you rather social media, all the links are on my page. So LadyLawShield.com.

SPEAKER_02 41:32

It will be linked in the show notes for those of you who want to go there. And I hope that you enjoyed this interview as much as I did, Bridget, because I really enjoyed our conversation.

SPEAKER_03 41:42

I very much did, Mr. Bisson. I love saying that your name with that French accent. And love to do it again. I feel like you and I, you know, could just keep talking and talking and talking about this. And the goal is that if one day we help one person, then we've been successful in life.

SPEAKER_02 42:00

I see my podcast that way. I see my work that way. And I can't remember who had said it, but someone said save one person, save the world. And I think that that's what we're trying to do. And hopefully I've saved one or two people in my life. And I hope that people have been saved, and I can probably tell from our conversation that they have. So thank you so much. Come back. We'll we'll we'll call this an episode for today, but we'll definitely talk afterwards. And for those of you who are still listening, hope you go to our website. And I really thank you for listening, and I welcome you back for the next episode.

SPEAKER_00 42:37

Thank you. Please like, subscribe, and follow this podcast on your favorite platform. A glowing review is always helpful. And as a reminder, this podcast is for informational, educational, and entertainment purposes only. If you're struggling with a mental health or substance abuse issue, please reach out to a professional counselor for consultation. If you are in a mental health crisis, call 988 for assistance. This number is available in the United States and Canada.