Teacher to Teacher Talk

This week on Teach  Wonder, we are bringing you an interview with Dawn Kahler. A middle school teacher from Kalamazoo, Michigan, Dawn brings a level head and thoughtful presence to teaching in 2022. This conversation spans student relationships, administration, and how to take care of yourself.

Links:
Kagan: It's All About Engagement
For White Folks Who Teach in the Hood... and the Rest of Y'all Too: Reality Pedagogy and Urban Education by Christopher Emdin

Intro Music by: David Biedenbender 

Other Music:

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Transcript

Ashley O'Neil: 0:29

Imagine a bad day at work, things didn't go to plan you were in a meeting that could have been an email- should have been an email. Emotions are running high, high, or there were so many disruptions that you didn't get to what you needed to get to. Maybe there was an interaction or two that didn't go to plan, and you didn't like the teacher, administrator, or general human being that you were today. And if you're being honest, you weren't a big fan of the other people that you interacted with either. Our guest today is the person that I don't want to talk to after a day like that. This conversation is one that I'd want to have, after a year of days like that. The mix of empathy and humor and advice that you're going to hear is relatable and the right kind of pick me up. Our guest done her eyes are wide open to the system that she's working inside of. She's very aware of the challenges of being a teacher right now. And she's got a perspective on her role and her why in education, that both made me want to listen to teachers more acutely, and gave me encouragement for where we are and where we could be headed. Every time I talked to dawn, she leaves an impression on me. I learned from her wisdom and her honesty. And I'm a better teacher from the marks she's made on my professional way of thinking. You won't hear a lot from Julia today, because we're getting out of the way. And we're letting Dawn leave an impression on you.

Dawn Kahler: 1:44

Don Kahler, Kalamazoo, Michigan, and I work for Kalamazoo Public Schools. This is my 30th year teaching. I can't believe I'm saying that. And I'm from a little town up north called Leland Michigan. And it was a big change to move down to Western Michigan University and go to school. I remember that first day going to school and had my backpack on and I had everything ready to go walk into classes and everyone go by I'm saying to everyone, hello, hi, how are you? And everyone's like, looking at me like oh my gosh. So there was all this cultural adjustment to coming down to a big city. But went to Western for four years. Six, sorry, not four. And I went into sports medicine and decided that wasn't for me, but gradually switched over to teaching because that's when I saw kids light bulbs come on and the joy that I got from that. Then I subbed in Kalamazoo because it was so hard to get a teaching job back then. And I subbed long term and a lot of buildings Elementary. And I was determined I was going to be in a first grade that I found out was not really for me. It was the upper elementary grades. And I was hired after a year of subbing in Kalamazoo schools. And then I started teaching sixth grade in the elementary. And I taught at a school called Northeastern where we had a full school, we had 5/6 grades, when I started. We had five of everything except it was a school that they were transitioning over to a k three building. And then eventually my job then was gone because they narrowed it down to three, six grades. And I went to a smaller school that didn't have sixth grade before. wonderful experience. We wrote magnet curriculum, and got to work with some really incredible people worked with Temple University and they started putting people through to see the program. We were running for them in our school. So it became very normal to have people from all over the country in our classrooms all the time watching, seeing what we're doing. And then eventually, the middle school in my neighborhood, though, was one of the first schools in the state to be closed. And they got rid of the principal as amazing as he was he wasn't making progress fast enough. And he was the reason I came here because he was so visionary and just could move people places but they said it's not fast enough that they're at the time. MEAP scores were not going up quickly. So they let him go. We went through more principles over time. We also were a magnet school here with some Rate, well written curriculum. That's changed over time. I then began the my tip program through Michigan Tech, and got to take classes for my masters that it was hands on. And we were really touching the earth and touching science instead of sitting in a classroom all summer taking notes and doing that stuff. It was such a privilege to be able to do that hands on. And it really inspired a lot of us. And then we joined in with the my star along with that. And that I won't say that's run its course we're still working on that. And now we are part of the National Science Foundation's MTP program. So we're a noise fellow is what that is, and we're working still. So I've been through principals coming and going, I'm finding now in the middle school, I'm working at that. You know, I'm one of the old dogs now. It's, it's odd. But, you know, I don't see myself that way. But I guess it is. So that's where I am now. I think I gave you everything you asked, but I'm not sure.

Ashley O'Neil: 6:18

That was perfect. It was exactly what I wanted. And you told it in like a story way, which is much more interesting than like, question answer. Question. Answer. Sounds perfect. So Don, I have a lot of things I'm interested in talking to you about. Because I've always I always learn a lot from you when I hear about your approach.

Dawn Kahler: 6:33

Awe thanks!

Ashley O'Neil: 6:34

Yeah, I was bragging about you before you got on the call. But one of the things I'm really interested in hearing from you is how you built relationships with students. And I know that there, is a there is- like a pre/post COVID In education, and that there will never be like a normal back to normal normal. We're in a new space of trying to figure out that looks like and I know that relationships and student dynamics have been affected by this for kids. So I don't know if you want to just give us some examples. But that's kind of what I'm interested in folks here today. So when I say that what comes to mind right away?

Dawn Kahler: 7:11

Well, I guess, I think of a comparison, almost, of, you know, pre COVID, you were doing things with kids like, like with our magnet grants that we had, we were able to do things like take all of our sixth graders at the time canoeing down the Kalamazoo River, because it went with our water unit and our ecosystem unit. And it was right in our community is problem based learning. Because we have this Superfund site right here where we have all these PCVs that have been dumped, and the paper mills that were there. And the spark that you could get from kids that they were they became advocates for their community. And it was just incredible. It gives me chills just to think about these kids and what they were able to do for their community and how they started to stick up for it and knew what was happening. And then kind of rolled into that the curriculum started to change because NGSS went through, and so people are trying to figure out how to implement that. But the relationships with kids in that point were that there wasn't that- there feels like there's a barrier and sometimes it's, you know, the distance that you have to keep with kids. You know, getting right down right next to them. There's there's that piece of connection there that you're trying to work around that. I'm still here for you, but I'm not right standing physically next to you, which is for me a little sad. You know, because I have I'm, I'm an older adult, and I have a partner at home who has has issues that are health issues. So I want to keep my family safe. And I know a lot of my community that I work with, isn't vaccinated. They have a lot of impact from COVID. So I want to take care of them to the number of days our teachers have been out and teachers just continually giving planned time away to cover classrooms, no foul did the other teachers they're dealing with, you know, illnesses and their children's illnesses and just regular things that always used to happen. So it kind of wears you down it but on the other hand, too, though, it gives you an opportunity. So I've asked if I have to sub Can you put me with my kids in gym and they we get to see different sides of each other. So I'm in there playing volleyball with them because that's another degree I have. I have a physical education agree. So they're left with free time because you end up with 75 kids in a classroom. And you're subbing, the plans are not there. So I'm going in, okay, I've got volleyball with you. And oh, let me show you how to do this one or okay, I'm over here playing basketball with this group, or I'm commenting on the kind of beach volleyball with the bigger ball going on over here, the football and it's, so I asked, you know, put me in with my kids, if you have that opportunity. But it's also this year been slower. To make those relationships, it seemed like our kids went through a lot of they were de socialized. They were on their own. I know, during the pandemic, that we were virtual, because we were virtual last year, all of last year still. And we had kids that by the end of the year one was like super shy. And I did something called cogens. And my cogens came from a book that I read with my group, and I'm drawing a blank on his name right now.

Unknown: 11:13

But cogens are where I would meet with certain groups of kids from my hour and try to make it very representative of my class. And when we were virtual, we would have Wednesday's that were SEL days. And so we had a little more time. And I'd meet with those kids. 15 minutes. And we've talked about what's going well in the class, what's hard, what we could make better. And one of the things we really talked about was how to how to spread the fun, how to spread the connection. And sometimes we just point blank talks about"I'm worried about so and so in our class," but I would say those were some of the closest relationships I've ever been able to have is with the kids. And when they felt they were the advocates for all their peers. So they would do things like they would have, they ran a they call it the Dope Science Week. And we did like any kinds of fun science things more like a spirit week. And we tried to do it virtually. One class had most of my immigrant kids in them, because because we're a school for immigrant kids coming to the United States. So we have a had a lot of the kids and they were trying to overcome technology issues. Being in the United States, not knowing the language, having nobody right there with them to help. So we would brainstorm. And I put my kids in breakout rooms, I'd make sure each of these coaching kids were in a breakout room. I'm gonna get teary here, those kids when I would peek into the room, you could hear them mimicking teacher voice, you could hear them asking what their peers thought. And it was the kindest, most beautiful thing that I saw. And it was in such a hard time and it gave, I think the kids community. And it gave the kids reason to know why they're so important. And to keep trucking through this, and we got each other. And then the best thing is that one of the teachers then that was virtual, she got married this fall, and invited some of those kids that were in my cogen. So I actually got to meet them face to face, finally. Because a lot of the kids during that time they just kept their cameras closed. Because a) their peers were keeping on closed and their backgrounds. Because like I was saying one of the kids, he was so shy by the end of the year, we found out he had a two year old sister that he and his other sixth grade brother were watching while they were at school, and they were trying to manage school and manage a two year old who doesn't understand obviously, that they're in school, so she let them concentrate. You know, we had another kid in the sixth grade that they were watching a three month old baby while the parent was trying to work. It was hard. But there were some beautiful things that did come from it. This year, there's more of there's the distance still. We are mandatory masking that plays a little into it. You try to talk to kids about why the masking is important. And their eighth graders they I can't see it. So it's not happening. But that is slowly there. It's slowly changing but there was also behaviors to have just not knowing how to be in community with others, not knowing how to work in a class lessons. So there was, I kept saying to myself, give grace, give grace give grace. You don't know what they've gone through, you don't know what they're going through right now. But then we have an SEL day. For science department, it's every Tuesday. And so, I do things like sometimes we have a mandatory lesson from the district, it's very short. And I'll do things like, I'll look at their NWA scores, and I look into what I see that they're behind in, and can I give them something to catch them up, I sometimes sit and I'll make targets with them about, okay, this is what our goal is. And this is what we want to try to set you up to be comfortable walking in those doors at high school next year. So you can have your head held high. And you can just nail it when you know, we're sitting here cheering you on.

Dawn Kahler: 16:13

There, there's just all these different things, I keep trying to make sure I'm using my Kagan strategies. I know a lot of people don't know what Kagan is, but it's like group work. It's different structures and allowing kids to talk and be together and build teams, and then build classroom community. And sometimes I have to remind myself slow down on the curriculum. And I do have a great principal who said, I will back you up when you are not on pace with the district. It's it, we got to go slow. We added or slow and my theory has always been you go slow at the beginning of the year to go fast later. And we're starting to pick up a little bit, we're starting to see some spring behaviors, again, slowing down. But we're picking up again, one of the projects I just did with my kids on an SEL day was incredible. And I've done it in years past. But this really brought some bigger connections with the kids of I call it the compliment project. And so they watch this video that was created by a high school student in Chicago. And she did it, it's, I think it's called, you're beautiful. And so she took video of people that she felt were beautiful, and she was so inclusive of all kinds of beauty. And if you haven't seen this video, it brings me to tears. Then we went on to the video of the Compassion Project, which other teachers have done. And then they put what they do is the kids have their chair in front of the whiteboard, and they're not facing the whiteboard. And there's two rules to this for the rest of the class, it has to be positive. And it has to be school appropriate. And kids just come up. And they fill the board with all these compliments about this person. And I've preface this ahead of time, because I think it's, I get very nervous, I don't want a kid to think, oh, they really didn't like me for any thing that they would read into it. And we talk about how the person not looking might feel. And then they fill the board with all these things about them. And we talk about how important it is even for the people that don't know you to put what they see that's good about you up there. And I asked one of my students if I could, because I take pictures of it for him. And then I sent it to him. So they have all those sayings and they have themselves in front of it. And I asked one of the girls, I said that the newsletter is asking for some things. Do you mind if I like put an emoji over you? So nobody knows and the things are behind you. And she said she emailed me back and she said that would be fantastic. And she said, I didn't know that everybody felt this way about me. And I'm like, Yes, this is the right thing to be doing. And then every Tuesday I offer it up again. And I'll offer it throughout most of the year, so that they still have the chance because maybe it was just the day they weren't ready to volunteer to go up there. And maybe tomorrow is the day that they needed that and they need that feedback. I also do things like I'll make sure I go to their games. Were back to sports again. I go to their games I teach or I coach basketball for my eighth graders. And I just took them to Michigan State again, I wrote a grant and got money to take them to Michigan State, because we're the Kalamazoo Promise. And a lot of our kids aren't sure what college looks like, and what that promise could bring them. And there's stuff outside of Kalamazoo, that maybe you want to do. And I talked to the girls in particular about how being a good athlete and having the promise on top of it that you made the grades, you could, you're a free ticket for a college coach, that you could sit on the bench, and they still have scholarship money for somebody else. So your plus you can play holy moly, on top of all that look at you. And so it starts to motivate some of them and you could see them starting to go to tutoring after school. And seeing that they could do it. Like I've got one girl in particular right now. Now she's interested in one of the players at Michigan State, because she saw our play. And she's starting to say I asked my dad to play travel ball, and now they're looking into travel ball. And that wasn't there for them before. I asked in my lessons, a daily SEL question. And the kids put it in through a Pear Deck app. And so like this week, I found out for different kids who are struggling with some things. Because the question was I had a little pail what's draining you right now and what's filling your bucket. And a lot of kids right now at school, January and February so hard and we talk about that getting outside and those things. But like one student, her dog ran off in the morning, and I know how I feel about my dog, and how can she concentrate on the day. But kept checking on her. Another one her mom is leaving for a while. And another one, Dad's having open heart surgery. And it was a risky procedure, checking in on her just trying to make those connections with with my kids making the connection. Like, you know, the end of today, we had extra time with my six hour and I have a really small class. And I know they wanted to watch the big 10 Women's Basketball Tournament. I'm like, Okay, let's make this connection instead of Nope, we're sticking to the curriculum. And I went next door and said, What are you doing? And they said, I kind of ran out of curriculum I'm done for right now. Send them over, let's talk. And they pulled up some board games that were on the internet that I have to play together. And they just were just they want to be together. You know, that's one reason those cogens haven't happened this year. They want to be together, but they want to be with their peers, they missed for a full year. So I'm hoping my cogens can start up again next year. So I know that's a lot. There's so many things that we do with relationships. And it just keeps there's an opportunity to jump on that opportunity. Talk to the kids, ask them about it. Let them help run your room, talk to him about your lessons and pull that stuff in. And why do you think this didn't work? Did I screw up? That's okay, let me know. I'll fix it.

Ashley O'Neil: 23:36

I just hear like this great theme. And you said all the things I thought you were gonna say in all the great ways I thought you're gonna say because like, you are a science teacher. And I don't think that once came up in this conversation. I mean, you said it at the beginning, right. But so much of what you said, it didn't matter what content area you taught, and that wasn't your primary focus. And you see dividends pay off both for them as people and in your curriculum and your academic output. But none of it was focused on like, how can I get them science this year, which I think is great.

Unknown: 24:10

Well, I think I think that piece opens up for science, when they feel that you care about them. When they they see that there's all these things that are extra that Mrs. Kahler does because she's trying for sure.That that's the bare minimum that you're trying as a teacher and the kids see that. And this sounds a little arrogant, but man, I can nail my lessons. And I know when my kids are learning. I know when they're learning, I can look at my NWEA scores. And I look and I can see progress and my kids. I've got that part. My kids need this right now. And so all of our kids everywhere need this and in so many ways. I would love to connect like communities, like outlying districts that don't look like my community, and connect the kids that way. So when the players roll into this community for a basketball game, you know, there's, there's this beauty in that, yeah, we're here for the game, we're going to play this, we're going to be warriors on the court. But then, hey, you and I've seen you in my neighborhood before, you know, and making that connection, there's so much here to, to fix. There's so much one of my heart kits the other day, you know, one of my challenging clients, I guess she'd say, he, just out of the blue, he was kind of be an ordinary in class. And all of a sudden, he goes to me. So are we going to war? I'm like, So tell me, are you talking about us? The United States? Are you talking about us on our soil? Are you talking about something else? Tell me more. And he said, Yeah, that Ukraine thing? Are we going to war? And I said, Well, this is what I know about the situation. I kind of talked after we talked about this is where Ukraine is. This is what I know that's going on. But I'm going to ask you to talk to our social studies teacher because he talks a lot about current events. And so I tagged him real quick and said, Look, this is on the kids minds. And he said, Yep, that's perfect for what we're doing tomorrow. And he just fed right into it. And I found some resources to help the kids think it's from it was from board teachers, it was, and it said to look on these sites for good information. And this is what kids are thinking about right now. So, you know, building within even other teachers helps our kids to, and to listen to what they're saying. Because they're giving us clues all the time as to what they're thinking and what they need. And using that Pear Deck like I do, I don't know if you guys know what that is. And I'm not selling Pear Deck, please don't think that. But it gives me options and opportunities to talk to the kids who who aren't talking. I was that shy kid. I wouldn't talk to anybody. And those are one of the kids that I look for the most because that was me. That's where I hear kids the most is in that I'm going to type it out real quick. Just real quick, they, sometimes they know that I'll share things. But if I look at something I'm like, I don't think I should share that. And I'll quick text them in the in the Pear Deck itself. I can talk to him and say do you want this shared? Or can you talk to me after class? Or can I email you something like that? But we have more celebrations. It's getting warmer out? We can take the masks off outside still and keep going.

Ashley O'Neil: 28:24

And how are you filling up your bucket right now? Because I know that all the things that you're talking about are so are filling the kids buckets, but that's draining for you. So how are you maintaining yourself in this heart here?

Dawn Kahler: 28:38

Yeah, yeah. And you're absolutely right. I think all teachers need a safe buddy that they can talk to and nothing leaves the room. Because you have to decompress somehow. You have to, you have to cry. You have to complain about what's bugging you at that moment. But then you have to have the agreement. Nobody else knows we're done. We left it here. Or we'll continue this at another day. But we have to go back. I have to do like I have my power women's group. There. They were all in education at one point, this group. We all summer on our times we get on our bikes, we go run, we swim lakes, we just do it. And when one of us isn't feeling it, it's like come on, you've been gone two days now. Let's go. Come on, get in the group. And so during the school year when we're all busy again, Sundays or Saturdays, we look at the weather and like tomorrow morning 7:30am working around everybody's appointments, we're going hiking again, and sometimes you just start like I'm so exhausted. Nope, go do it. Come on, go. And then I'm finding, I'm having to put limits on my time because kids have now found out. You're there. 24/7 through email, and really limiting. Okay, at this time. I'm not I'm not looking at the emails, I let my kids know that. But those four eight emails that I'm getting still or one in the morning emails gives me concern. But I let them know hey, guys, I'm just not, I'm not there right then. Basketball helps me I love. It's my thing. I love my sport. So I'm going home. I've got my teams picked. And I just enjoy that way too. Along with being out there try to enjoy my family. It's my son's last year before he goes off to college. Planning. You know, our little getaways with my immediate family, making sure we're doing those things. Eating good food, taking the time to cook. Instead of just a pick me up. Okay, we're getting pizza. Okay, we're getting, because that's it easy trap to get into. And then later, you're going wow, what happened? But, you know, taking the time to learn to cook. To make sure I'm cooking. Make sure I'm being an example for my family and enjoying the food with them. That's another out. And it's hard to do sometimes. And sometimes I give myself and okay and grace and say no, we're just getting pizza tonight. Nobody sad about that. But we're getting pizza tonight.

Ashley O'Neil: 31:53

Oh, perfect. Thank you. Julie, I didn't let you talk at all. Did you have any questions at this

Julie Cunningham: 31:59

time? I want to go back to the building respectful relationships question because we work a lot with pre service teachers are brand new teachers in our space. And I'm always curious as to. Right. They always say what somebody has 30 years in the classroom and and she's making it look easy, and it's beautiful. And but how do we explain? Like, where do you start, I guess? Or what is the? What's the non negotiable? Like if I were starting out in a classroom? This is the bare minimum of what you need to do to build relationships? Or how I think a lot of people think they're good listeners, how do you right, like really be an active listener? Not because you think it's the right thing to do, but because these are human beings, and you really want to know what they have to say. So I guess I guess those are two related questions.

Dawn Kahler: 32:58

I think at new teachers sometimes coming in what I've seen, at least here is there's sometimes as a confusion between being the friend like the best friend, it goes a little too far. Or like maybe you need some boundaries, though. And then there's, you know, stay away. You know, I don't know how to handle this. And I won't say that, that means Oh, they should never have been a teacher. Not not that at all, but it's just learning how to negotiate that area. I remember my first year I was given my home phone number out, I was going picking up kids when they were in crisis. I was I was sharing that I was pregnant. I hadn't told my family yet. I'm like, what were you thinking? Just it was too much. It was too much. Listening, like you say is a critical piece. And I think sometimes with that friendship piece that might go to a little too far there becomes that they're the teachers doing all the telling, telling, telling, Telling and doing things like which child of yours in this hour is the most in need. What can you tell me like when we're in team meetings? You know, last year in particular, what three kids of yours needs an email from you this week? What do you know? And if you came to that meeting with that and couldn't tell, that's probably meaning, you're not listening enough that maybe there aren't those opportunities for discussion in your classroom. Now, holding discussion in your classroom is an art and it takes a lot of practice. And I don't I don't know that when schools ask our teachers to do that, that they they've had any formal training on it. And they're expected to just do it, where, like the Kagan strategies for me, really were really helpful. And the best was going for a week of training. And that's all I could do. I couldn't come home at night and be focused on other things. I was really keeping it in my head. We've had the other trainings that are like, they come and visit for a day. And I just didn't get as much from it. And I don't know that my staff did. But that training about how to really listen to your kids, and then like, pull them into a fishbowl to show the kids like, this is how we talk and listen to each other with this structure. Like, I'm looking at my posters here, like a rally table, and being able to see what they said. I just saw strategy in English that I just loved. And I was like, Oh, I wish I was an English teacher that could do this. And it was kids like really being inquisitive about the books they're reading in a spreadsheet alone. And I thought, how can I put this into my practice was science that the kids could choose things that they wanted to learn about? Maybe. But the the teacher then has to go in and really look at what the kids are saying. And that's another way in for those really quiet kids that sometimes you miss, because they're not the behavior issue in the class sometimes. And they're not always answering, you know, questions, questions, questions, looking for resources to that are good SEL things instead of always academic, academic, academic, writing, reading, the friend of mine, that is the vice president. She was diversity in education at Bronson. She was trying to get a library together of young adult books to help create understanding of diversity. And I'm like, Exactly, that's exactly what you should be doing. Talking to the kids about what's going on in their lives, and just really getting to know them, going to their games, like we have little league down here, hit a little league game, see what's going on with the family. Phone calls home. But making sure that you set a key piece about are you listening, though, are you hearing your kids. And sometimes we work in a team. So we have social studies, English and Math working together with the same group of kids, and somebody will be on the lookout. And they'll say, Hey, I'm concerned about so and so let's you know, kind of wrap our arms around them and do some of these good things for them, and opening up with parents, because parents will email and say, hey, my kids having a rough day, this is going on, can you kind of keep you know, an eye on them. And that helps us plus, you know, that makes me feel good, that we have that kind of relationship that we're a family right here. But I think for new teachers, maintaining some boundary, but yet not so structured of a boundary, that you're not connecting with your kids, you have to build those relationships. But they've got to be appropriate. That, you know, you're not just hanging, you know, the show hanging with Mr. Cooper I call hanging with Mr. Cooper, and not actually improving academics, because that is so not fair to a kid that trying to be the cool teacher, and not moving them and progressing them along. So that they can continue to climb and rise. So there's a difference there. That's

Ashley O'Neil: 39:08

best for them, right? Like I respect you enough to give you this opportunity, and I'm not going to deny you that education, in relationship. And also I also hear from you too, that there's listening without judging or those listening without deciding so like, kids feel like they can share information with you. And part of that is you just taking it in and observing to learn about them, instead of us saying I'm gonna get this information so I can make a decision who you are. You're keeping your mind open as you're listening to your students, which is why they keep sharing information with you.

Dawn Kahler: 39:42

Absolutely, and on that note to checking my own privilege, and making sure I'm not judging using my world and my privilege. With that that is huge. And continue continuing to Check your priveledge because no one's ever at the point where they've arrived. Because if they ever think they have, that's when you're at your most dangerous of harming children. Because no, you have no one ever arrives, you continually work at being a better listener, a better teacher. It's never a job that's done.

Julie Cunningham: 40:24

I think that that's well said, I have only one more follow up question. And yes, I and I love that you said that right? That. Because we have those conversations around here all the time, I taught a chemistry workshop the other night, and I did not have my mom and I've, I've been teaching a long time right now, not quite 30 years, almost. And I did not have a very good teaching night. And I knew it right. And so I definitely tried to fix it with the student. But nonetheless, I did that in front of pre service teachers. So then I had to debrief with them. And write and I know better, I absolutely know better. But I got to a point of frustration. And there was that that was it. So you're right, like you have I haven't arrived. I mean, I have places I can improve. And I know that. And so doing the work is something additional right? Knowing that I haven't arrived and then doing the work to get there is a whole nother whole nother story. But my question for you is that when teachers listen to this, and they say, Well done, that sounds like that takes a lot of time, right? And maybe my principal isn't quite as understanding as yours, and does expect me to be at the same point as the other teachers every single day or whatever my expectations, maybe it's something I expected myself, or maybe I'm held accountable in some other way to my parents or my students. I heard you say this pays off, right? So that you start slow, so that you can go fast. But can you maybe give some pointers for how or what that looks like in the classroom? So if I'm somebody who's listening, and just saying, I just hear time, time, time, time, time, right, Don? Where does that time come from? Can you give us just some thoughts there.

Dawn Kahler: 42:16

The idea of go slow to go fast. Always I'm open with my my administrators. And they know this about me and I have had quite a few new principals. So I always have to go in and make sure they know how I work. So that, you know, there's no surprises, why aren't you on this page at this time. But going slow and teaching like those. For me, it's I use Kagan those structures, and doing activities. So the kids get to know each other, then going slow with the curriculum too, because I use the my star curriculum, and it's a lot of discovery learning and inquiry base. So this is new, this isn't the norm yet. We're still teachers are still learning it. Kids are still learning it, families are still learning what this is, I'm sure the community is too. And so going slow and me talking through. Okay, so this part of our lesson is called an anchor. Why do you think it's called an anchor? And then we talk about why it's that and then we hit it again, the next lesson the next week? What do you think that does for us? You remember this? Those kinds of things. If the if I explained to the kids why I do what I do, usually they're like, Okay, that makes sense. And they'll buy it. Getting the kids to be able to know my structures and how we do things, ends up letting them go faster. I don't need to keep explaining it and keep reteaching it later. So when spring comes or January and February comes in, everyone wants to not be doing what they're supposed to. They keep working. They keep moving because they're kind of running the class in so many ways, in that they know. Okay, we're going to do a rally table right now. Okay, let's go. And we're doing the bubble mapping activity. We do this all the time. We know how to do a bubble that we know how to ask questions now. I know how to get extra help from Ms. Keeler. I'm going to talk to her after class and see what we can do. I know how to do that because I spent all those times on those routines at the beginning and I reinforced those routines. Now I'm flying with the curriculum. Now we're going where if I didn't spend that time, saying okay, these are norms and class, these are routines. Remember, we really did mean it I didn't back off and say run now you don't have to follow that routine because now I'm battling that again. And I I want to do that I want to learn and grow and continue to know my kids. It's, we're going faster now. So the time was well spent. And honestly, when I've explained that to my administrators, I guess I've been really lucky in that they all have been really yep, I get that. Keep doing what you're doing. And yeah, it is a time. It is a time commitment. I do spend time in the evenings, I do spend time in the evenings looking at what the kids have said, grading, really looking at my lessons going, ooh, we need to tweak this a little bit. There was some misunderstanding there. And I sit on the couch next to my best friend doing it, you know, and he understands. And we have to really continue to keep that discussion going, too. Because there's the family piece of it. And I mean, I mean, it's a full circle thing. The guy across the road was my sixth grade student. He's my neighbor. He's on the commission. Now. He and his wife, I see their kids growing up, they're my neighbors. These I'm helping to grow my community. And it's so worth it. It is not worth me losing my health, or my family for so there's, you have to look at your time and say, How much is it worth? I do need my downtime. Am I taking care of my health? Am I taking care of my family's health? And me? What are the things I need? Maybe I just don't need these things. And the Netflix okay, if there's something I just gotta watch. I'll sneak maybe it in, you know, here and there, but not, not use my time. So it's, I'm looking back on. That was a time suck. Wow, that was terrible. And maybe that's the thing I do on break. Maybe that's the thing I do. Okay, maybe I just need that right now. And I need a little Netflix binge. Okay, carve out that time. And that's it, set your alarm and say no more same thing with your phones, do that to set the alarm only this much on tick tock. Even though I can rationalize my tic tock, I learned so much from other teachers on tick tock, it is awesome. What I learned, I have to stay away from the negative stuff of you know, I'm gonna quit my job I'm leaving, because that's a suck too, that you don't need you got to, you got to protect your mind.

Julie Cunningham: 47:44

I'm thinking done at how lucky your students are. And the teachers that follow you that get your students the next year, right. So you didn't just provide those students with autonomy in your own classroom and the ability to have some measure of control over their learning just for the sake of your year. But you've provided them with that moving forward, which is which is huge as you say you're building the community so and and isn't that where we want students to get right where they don't need us who wants eighth graders that need you the same at the start of ninth grade as they did at the start of eighth grade?

Unknown: 48:26

Well, I've been working Grad Bash at the high school for the seniors to help raise money and I've been doing concessions and things and it's always a mask. I mean, I had one half over the concessions counters in give me a big hug and like my son saw it, he's like, and those days, you're still gonna be down days as a teacher where you get you know, you kind of take on so much of what the kids are feeling when it's hard times. And he'll look at me and he'll say, when I have those those days, I'm like, gosh, it was so hard today he comes and he goes But mom, you make a difference. He is such a good cheerleader for me. And he says, Remember I'll say Suzie Q and how she had such a rough time in your class at the beginning. And where now? She has she calls in the summer and said when summer I can't my ride for my job interview fell through. Can you take me? Or you know one of the people that made the biggest impact in my life was Mrs. Kaler. Miss Kaler, can you make sure you come to and she says our because those are my kids. All of them. Can you come to our basketball game? Will you go to the football game and it's Oh, it's Miss Kaler. Those are the days when you go gosh, it was such a hard day. I just want to put it behind me. If you think that Those days, if you pull out those letters of those kids, it really helps. Because like, all you young teachers that we have out there, you are so needed, you are so needed, but we need those young teachers to be healthy. And to be able to get through this, because this is not easy work. The public does not understand that. And so, you know, going to the public and saying how hard it is, usually isn't understood, you have to go to other educators to say, look, this is what I'm struggling with, and get that feedback. And know, in the future, you made an impact on those kids, you know, go to their graduation, if you're that kindergarten teacher, go to that graduation, that is your first group of kids. I mean, you're gonna go out there crying, but you're going to be their biggest cheerleader in the fans screaming and yell, and that was your baby, that they walked across that aisle and you had an impact on that. And you can see your community. I'm at the point where I can't remember names. I've had 1000s. But I look at that face and how it's changed. And I see those eyes and I go, that's mine. That's my kid. So it's worth it. It's worth that. Find a mentor, you know, a good mentor, whether they're long distance. That's somebody that has a little bit of time you can email or talk to, because we need you, our kids need you our nation needs you. We've got to make the system continue to work and get better.

Julie Cunningham: 51:44

Well, we couldn't ask for a better a better message to end on. Ashley, do you have any other questions for Don?

Ashley O'Neil: 51:53

I didn't have any more questions for Don. And I feel like the best way to summarize our conversation with her is to ask to hear from you. If something you heard today left an impression on you please reach out and let us know. We value the voices of our education community and really enjoy hearing from you. You can email us at cs@cms.edu that is c e se at C M I C h.edu. Until next time, this has been teach wonder brought to you by the Center for Excellence in STEM education. The links mentioned today or in this show notes as well as a full transcript