Role Playing Games and STEM

Role playing games and story? Yes. Role playing games and fantasy? Obviously. But role playing games and STEM?  Find out why we say- absolutely!

Our interview with Mike Reuter focuses role playing games and their possibilities with students. Owner of Raconteurs of the High Road, Mike draws on his experience leading middle & high school and adult groups in popular role playing campaigns. We talk about the skills and surprises that come with engaging in this activity with students. Whether you're unsure of what we mean when we say rpgs or you're regularly throwing for perception checks, this episode will interest and surprise you.  Mike helped us make this episode extra creative in a way that will draw you into the realms and worlds that have so many coming individuals joining Mike in front of his maps each week.


Music:
 SergeQuadrado from Pixabay
Ashot-Danielyan-Composer from Pixabay
Lexin_Music from Pixabay

Additional Sound Effects: Pixabay 

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Transcript

Narrator: 0:05

it's dusk turn it over into night way off to the west you can see just the faintest memories slide stain of light casting long shadows across the field flanking the road you're on behind you know rather than ghosts appoint looking back their Broken wagon overturned trunks the contents spilled, blown in the wind. The yoke once held a paradox. There wandered off out of sight. Yeah, no point looking back, stead turn to the following the road to small collection of lights ahead. The reason you're out here on this dark night dark business

Ashley O'Neil: 1:29

This introduction is one that you may not expect to hear on a podcast about education, we get that you may expect to read it as the opening chapter of a book curled on the couch on a rainy evening ready to transport yourself somewhere else. It may be the opening to a good movie, and you're sitting with popcorn, ready to learn more about the heroes and the villains in the tale. Because really, at its heart, what you just heard was the start of a pretty good story. And that's what we're talking about today on teach wonder stories, and how games can allow people to take an active role playing inside of them. On our podcast today, we have a colleague here from CMU, who a few years ago, started hosting online events for students through our space, students would get together and play role playing games on Zoom, the popularity of these sessions grew. Mike has since hosted an in person summer camp and many weeknight sessions. These role playing games are an active way for students to do a lot of things stimulated and otherwise. And we're excited to share this interview with you as it touches on how story and collaboration can be practiced and experienced in well, maybe not new, but definitely unexpected ways the students. This episode will be structured a bit differently. We hope that you enjoy this episode of teach wonder.

Mike Reuter: 2:48

Hi, my name is Mike Reuter. I am a CMU employee in the Office of Information Technology. I'm also the owner of a small company called rakon tours of the high road that produces develops plays, role playing games.

Ashley O'Neil: 3:04

Fabulous, and for someone who is unfamiliar. And you can talk a little bit about what role playing games are.

Mike Reuter: 3:13

Sure. Role playing games are category of game where players take on and play as a character either they generate and create themselves or one that is created for them. And there's sort of a spectrum of games that fit into this space where people take those characters, and then explore a world in a pretty broad broad spectrum. So on the one end, you have you ubiquitous Dungeons and Dragons, Pathfinder, sort of fantasy type games, there are games that take place in the distant future, alternate sort of versions of our world or other worlds. And then there are games that are very much of our world, and maybe even our current times. One of the most interesting right now I think, is a game called Alice is missing, where the players take on the roles of teenagers in a small town who are attempting to unravel the mystery of a missing girl. And the game is played entirely silently over the players cell phones via text message. Okay, so the so that's sort of, you know, the genre of role playing games. adapts itself to all sorts of different kinds of things.

Julie Cunningham: 4:37

might ask a follow up question. Yeah. Do you know like a game that I can win at so you can win? Are they? Yeah, I feel like role playing games don't really fit that category of game. So can you expand on that part of like that? The word game?

Mike Reuter: 4:54

Yes. There's sort of two paths down that there are role playing games and even sort of sessions are

Julie Cunningham: 5:06

I feel like some are more collaborative than others. Does that matter when there's or are they all collaborative?

Mike Reuter: 5:13

Okay, so, no. So there are role playing games and sort of instances of different games where there is a very specific goal for a player or players. And when they finish that goal, the game is done. And that can be done either with a group or they call it solo gaming. There are even some role playing games that are played without a facilitator. So the person playing is the only one doing it. And then there are ones that go on without a specific goal or end in mind for however long that people feel like blank. There are some games that have gone on for decades, with the folks just sort of growing these characters and continuing to explore whatever you know world they're roaming around. And

Ashley O'Neil: 6:09

so role playing games invite players to take on the role of a character and complete activities and challenges inside of a world. That world can be similar or vastly different from the world that we live in. Sometimes characters are friendly with one another. And sometimes they're deeply at odds. When Mike first described role playing games, and sometimes you'll hear people shorten role playing games to RPGs. My book loving brain cracked open. He was describing different genres of literature trips to the library, where I perused books and chose worlds and scenarios that were compelling enough for me to want to step inside of. So Mike builds worlds, he creates imagined spaces, cities, rivers, forests, encampments, he draws maps of these places and uses verbal imagery to share not only the physical landscape but the mood. Do you remember the opening of this episode, the overturned wagon, the city in the distance, let's revisit that for a moment.

Narrator: 7:10

looming ahead, a handful of buildings cluster tied along the road. They're only slightly taller and maybe slightly less tired. In the shapes that must be the homes. The people that live here. They're single storey houses, showing the lien of age, smell of damp wood and rot. Comes from setting up too close to the sea. The wind kicks up, dust leaves swirl around your feet. Just more ghosts out here with you. On this dark night.

Ashley O'Neil: 8:00

Mike is doing here is pulling you into the scene. He has a map of the wagon and the road he's describing. He's drawn a map of the town in the distance. And on top of that, he's imagined the type of town that it is. And he communicates this story. What do we know about this place? It's tired buildings are leaning, we smell the rat from the wood. And we also know that we must be near the sea, we can start building a picture in our own mind of the place that we're headed this way. It's what is this role called this world builder this story share? I'll let Mike explain.

Mike Reuter: 8:34

The term Dungeon Master is sort of fairly commonly used. But it would be similar to sort of the word Kleenex where a company owns that. And while we would sort of use it generically across the spectrum, the company that owns that would not like that. So it's called a bunch of different things depending on what game you're playing Game Master. Facilitator Warden is a fun one. So I have a couple of different types of groups that I that I facilitate.

Ashley O'Neil: 9:12

So so far, Mike's process the world building mapmaking setting the vibe, isn't that different from the process that our favorite authors go through to write their next book. But now we're going to introduce these people, these players, and what they do to find the biggest difference between authors and this role playing game facilitator. You see when I'm reading, I'm a passive observer to the world and the story that the author has constructed. When these players play, they're making decisions and actively shaping the narrative. So who exactly are the people who are playing these characters inside of the worlds that Mike is creating?

Mike Reuter: 9:51

So I have a couple of different groups of primarily middle and early high school kids. Some of them I'm would fit into the category of being at risk, or having special kinds of needs. Others are kids that come through a program that the Senator would offer. So sort of like, I don't wanna say the general, public type student, but that category, and then I also facilitate a group of adults, right now, once a month in public so that folks can come and watch, eco harass, provide insight, feedback, better suggestions for what the players should be doing things like that. Yeah.

Ashley O'Neil: 10:40

So let's kind of can we talk about that population, for our students who may be considered at risk, who may spend less time or may have may not have this opportunity otherwise, like, they couldn't just come here from high school, you're specifically kind of catering to this group? Can you talk a little bit about the unique challenges or opportunities or like, some of the way that that plays out?

Mike Reuter: 11:00

Teenagers, that would fit into sort of an at risk category, oftentimes, elsewhere in their lives have very little freedom to, I don't want to say do what they wanted to do. But you know, that I guess that's sort of the answer there, they have very little ability to simply do whatever they feel like doing. So when they play, they tend that tends to be the platform or the space in which they can do that. So they tend to want to do everything. So they leave no stone unturned, if they can be done, they're going to, they're going to try or do that, they tend to be very risk kicked, risk taking is not the right phrase, they tend to like to test and fully experienced this world that they are roaming around in. So they, they live it big inside inside the world, I guess would be sort of maybe the best way said, they do present some other maybe challenges in that. And I guess this might be not just with that particular sort of group of teenagers, but in a lot of cases, they tend to struggle with the idea of working collaboratively relying on each other. But I would say we do see that. But I see that across middle schooler and teenagers and out, you know, in a regular sort of spectrum of play as well. So that might just be something that is a little more evident in that group than it is in a general population, teenagers like to sometimes if you suddenly think doesn't quite go their way, or they feel like it's just a dull moment to turn on each other. So you know,

Ashley O'Neil: 12:54

but I think that what you said about, it's a space in which they can try everything and have a lot of freedom to explore and really do it kind of safely, right? Like they are aware of like they're fully aware in the game, that they're not actually an elf, or, or a druid. It's kind of in this underworld, but they can fully experience and explore things in a way with full autonomy that they may not be able to do on a day to day basis. And that's true for most teenagers, or most people in general, that's the draw of role playing games.

Mike Reuter: 13:22

For them, the game is definitely maybe one or have a very few places in their lives where they have a great deal of autonomy to do what they want to do, without having to worry about. I don't want to say ramifications. But this sort of other system that is in their lives, that sort of running things. So they tend to want to fully explore that world and take as much advantage of their character being in that world with that character could do who they're encountering, as they possibly can. They, they do some pretty big Yeah, they definitely take on big things without a lot of fear.

Ashley O'Neil: 14:05

The first point I want to touch on here is just this idea of exploring an autonomy. I think it's really significant that Mike recognizes that these role playing games give students a chance to make decisions and have full choice within this place. In preparation for this interview, I did a bit of reading and I came across a few interesting articles that suggested that role playing games do just that. They give students a more concrete space to practice abstract ideas like logic, cause and effect ethics and decision making. And it makes sense these players have a character that the maneuvering in the game and they have to work with others to make decisions that impact the whole group and individual players. Seeing students exercise that freedom to really test limits and try things is developmentally appropriate and it is significant. But before you think that the risk takers and the testers are just teenagers, we asked Mike to add to it But before you think that the risk takers and the limit testers were just teenagers, we asked Mike how his adult group compared I am. So how, what is your adult play experience?

Mike Reuter: 15:11

I would say adults play exactly the same as

Julie Cunningham: 15:15

with the impulsivity, yes, just as much impulsivity as teenagers.

Mike Reuter: 15:19

Yeah, I think, Well, I think it breaks down the same way. Like I have teenagers in both my at risk group, as well as the rest of the high school students that I play with, who are take things very, with a lot of consideration, a lot of thought, the thinking as far ahead as they can, what's the ramification of me doing this, and there are adults who play that way. And then we have adults and teenagers across the spectrum, who, who are thinking about five seconds ahead of their action, sort of, and I think in some ways, that is a reflection of how deeply they are trying to inhabit the character they're playing, I think the more deeply you are attempting to be that character, the less impulsively you act, because if you're really inhabiting that character, you understand that there are ramifications to that character. And if you're playing that character in a very shallow way, that none of that really matters. So you're still playing, you puppeting this character around, which is different from especially, I remember playing as a kid, when your character died, it was fairly upsetting. And, you know, there are people who play for a long period of time whose characters die, and it can be very upsetting, right? Because they have really grown attached to, and when they step into that character, they become that character, which may in some ways be themselves, but in some ways, may very much not be themselves. And that because they become very much attached to them. And so losing them becomes significant. Whereas if you play your character is very shallow. They're they're sort of interchangeable,

Ashley O'Neil: 17:18

playing characters in a deep or shallow way. I remember doing some social studies lessons in middle school, and I could feel myself failing to hook the students into the lesson, they didn't identify with a situation that we were reading or talking about, and that could basically feel waves of sowhat. And who cares rolling off of them as I tried to retell significant events in history. Now, I'm not saying teach social studies as a role playing game, that will be problematic in many ways. But when we see something that is developing that empathy skill that's resonating with students, it's important to take notice, the more deeply students play a character and the more empathy and care they have for that character's well being. How might we harness some of that empathy building where students can get comfortable or uncomfortable in situations outside of themselves? And what can we learn from those deeply invested players to help us connect students to the real world and events and scenarios and the past, present and future? I think that empathy development happened pretty deeply in a summer camp that we had, I feel like and it wasn't even a participants character. It was a character you had introduced, that that character then adopted and brought along with them everywhere they went,

Mike Reuter: 18:32

Oh, yes. Rick More? Yes. Is that the character we're talking about? Yes.

Ashley O'Neil: 18:38

Yeah, yeah. Rick More came along, and then that character, something happened more. And it was, it was devastating. But the interesting part was, not only was it devastating for that student, but then like, everyone kind of rallied around that student with, like, concern or care.

Mike Reuter: 18:54

Yes. So we had, yes, we had a character, we had a group that was through a course of events, deep underwater in this ship that had sunk but still had air in it. They were attempting to explore around in there and accomplish some kind of task. And they stumbled across this member of the crew who was still alive, who was you know, at the very last end of his life, if they hadn't rescued him, and they did. And for a period of time, he was sort of sort of the, I don't want to say the butt of the joke in the game, but he was definitely not someone that they had a great attachment to, but they were just sort of waiting for his eventual demise. And then over a period of time, um, how at non player character was very lucky in the game and sort of saved them in a couple situations, and they became very attached to him. And then later, he suffered a fairly terrible stroke of bad luck, and was sucked out of the world that the players were navigating. And they became very distraught by that especially one player in particular who who was extremely upset by that. And so I was lobbied for weeks and weeks and weeks that somehow we had to find a way for that non player character to return. Because he was the integral part of that group making their way around. So yes, they had experimented or explored this idea of empathy in this sort of virtual world that they were they were navigating around.

Julie Cunningham: 20:23

I think just based on what you were talking about when you used to play as a child, right and play now, do you ever feel like maybe a two part question you can answer it? Of course, how everyone but feel like you'd rather do more playing than facilitating? And or do you think being a facilitator has changed how you would be a player,

Mike Reuter: 20:46

when you take on the role of a facilitator, it definitely does change how you lay, because players who have never stepped into that role aren't as aware of the amount of work or, or the enjoyment that comes out of being the one who facilitates all that. So I think if you have been the facilitator, when you play, you ask a lot more questions about this world that the Dungeon Master, you know, game warden has made, because they put a lot of work into this thing. And if you just sort of race through it, you have missed a lot of what they really have the real detail that they put into it, as when we I was a kid, the game was much simpler. And so it was mostly exploring dungeons, there were just sort of this scattering of monsters thrown throughout it, there wasn't a lot of rhyme or reason to it. But as kids, you didn't really care a whole lot about that. But as you play more, you sort of become much more interested in making the game that the players are exploring be cohesive, and make sense, you become very, very, like a personally, I'm very, maybe obsessed with ensuring that the world the players are in makes sense, not just from inside there, but as as people as you know, as human beings as kids, it makes sense because people now are much more savvy, and intelligent consumers of entertainment, than I think they were back when I was a kid. So you have to guess the world you create have to be more robust, and make more sense.

Julie Cunningham: 22:37

So sometimes I'm asked as the director of the center right to, to, I don't know if I want to use the word justify. But exactly how do some of these things that you offer students through the center? How do some of these programs fit the idea of being in a STEM center? Right, like, so how does? How does it role playing game? fit in a STEM center? Yeah, and that's not the only program. I mean, I could list other programs, but since that's what we're talking about now. And I can see it and I can hear it as you're talking about sort of the decisions that have to be made in the way the students engage. But can you maybe spell some of that out from your perspective? And you don't, I'm not asking you to do my job and justify the offer, necessarily, but like, how do you see that as being a good fit in this space? How and why I guess.

Mike Reuter: 23:29

So, in my own experience, when I was growing up, playing you know what, at the time, there was really only Dungeons and Dragons at that point in time. So that feeds fed the desire, at least in me and the kids that I played with, when you weren't playing to be outside, right? Because the game is this massive exploration of this world. And when you're not playing it, as a, you know, middle school kid, you want to go out and recreate parts of that world. So it incentivizes or creates a new, this sort of feedback loop of this interest in the natural world, the world around you, and not just I mean, on a very simplistic level, like caves and you know, underground and all of this kind of, you know, but then also that feeds back into the game, your game play becomes more nuanced because of the things out in the world, for example, like, when players get lost in a game, very savvy players, if they're lost in the woods, or something will ask, is there moss anywhere on trees? Right? So they're drawing that connection with, okay, it's a real world moss is going to be on the north of the tree. So where's it gonna be in the game? And I remember stumbling across that playing as a kid and all of a sudden, it was just you know, we next time we were outside, we're running around to see if that was that really the case and it is right. So on the one hand, role playing games feed this desire to explore The there, you know, the natural world, which then feeds back into the gameplay as well. And then the other side is, if you do it right. The role playing games require that the players use a tremendous amount of critical thinking, because if you do it right, and when we played as a kid, since it was more simplistic, there was a lot of critical thinking. But it was mostly to avoid dying in traps, and all these sort of things where you were trying to figure out, you know, what's the order of things I have to do here. And so now, like now, if I'm successful, if I have really made, the players have to bend their brains to try to figure out what it is that maybe is going on in that moment, in a bigger picture, because you hide clues, and all this stuff all over a good game master requires the players to think very critically, because not only have you laid out things in the very specific, whatever they're doing, right then whatever situation they're in, but there are hints and all sorts of secrets, in the narrative in the environment they're in and what they're doing that point to much bigger things. If they can sort of put these things together, I would say that if you if you're doing it right, as a Game Master, the most interesting part of the game, is what questions the players ask. Because as the Game Master, you it's very intriguing that in almost every situation, there is a question that a player could ask that would fully reveal this thing that you are not You're not hiding, but his has not been revealed. And that that players do not directly or quickly find that question. So they will explore this whole sort of logical space hope to that one question that, you know, unveils this thing. So you've hidden pieces, all through this sort of critical thinking process that you hoped they hopefully, they, they stumbled through,

Ashley O'Neil: 27:16

you have the students coming up here, kind of doing a little bit of that, that world building for each other. So they the students who we've been working with have been primarily playing, and they've been playing together over time. And we've kind of seen their skills or their ability to collaborate and lean into each other's strengths grow. And now their next challenge is to build a portion, just a very small portion of a world with constraints. And I think to say that they're geeked about it as an understatement. How did you prepare that? And what do you think that will do for the students kind of growth as players,

Mike Reuter: 27:50

we have asked, the teenagers who are playing with us currently in camp is to take part a small part in a big project that is going on across the role playing world called dungeon 23. And it was a challenge that this couple people put out, for others to exercise and develop their game building the skills by creating a room, a connected room and in an underground dungeon every day. So you just sit on one, one point in a demo day, and you add a room to this mega dungeon that you are making. And there can be a theme that connects all these rooms together or not. And then at the end of the month, essentially you have a set of stairs going down and you start the next month on another level down, right. So eventually you end up with this dungeon that has both levels deep. So we have asked the teenagers at camp now to create a room or a couple of rooms that I will then connect together and they will explore as a unified sort of game. And yes, they seem to be very excited about that. And we'll see. We'll see what we get for results. And I give them some very explicit guidelines, like you know, because some folks I think would probably have the room pretty much instantly kill and if he steps into it, you know, some daunting challenges that would be unsurpassable. So hopefully, they sort of think that through and make something that is unique to them sort of a you know, a little bit of a reflection of of them and what they like and what they're interested in, but allows the party to continue on to the next room.

Ashley O'Neil: 29:47

And they do that so for people who are unfamiliar, they do they create that room, both with some sort of narrative or like piece where they can see you know, what's behind the elements and And there's gonna be this behind this picture frame or this underneath this box that won't be publicly revealed. But then they also create a map, can you talk to us a little bit about map development,

Mike Reuter: 30:10

when people look at it, look at the role of sort of facilitating a game from the outside. And sometimes people will say, Well, you know, it can't be particularly difficult. Because, you know, here's a map, and they just, you know, they get through it, and they go to the other side, they move on the next thing, they're gonna roll some dice, they're gonna kill some things. But what that misses is this idea that the Game Master has to be able to answer any question that a player has about their surroundings. And the more open and vulnerable a job you do as the Game Master, the more freedom you allow the players, the more that's going to happen. So for example, like you can play in a lot of not just role playing games, but a lot of video games are played with a call on the rails, so players are restricted in what they can do, it is more challenging, but more rewarding. If you allow the players the freedom to fully just sort of take a right turn and head in another direction that you thought they were going to do. But that requires you then flesh out wherever they go down to adding on player characters or places to go or things they pick up and want to know what colors this is a duty thing, what happens if I break it, or eat it or whatever. And you have to sort of be able to answer all that. So the teens at Camp will have to sort of experience that they will have to flesh out these rooms and what's in them as fully as possible as if to sort of sit in that in those shoes for a little bit. They have to answer all those questions instead of me answering them.

Ashley O'Neil: 31:46

Yeah, and those maps happen on a lot of different levels, right, like, so you will have maybe like the town and the forest from a large scope. But then if we someone were to enter into the town, then you may have like the specific street intersections. But then for all of those buildings, there would also be specific maps in which we'd know where the tables and the furniture and the staircases and the broken windows, and where all the other people would be. And so the students are making maps at the room level. And I saw you gave them graph paper. And then you also gave them a pretty explicit key for like stairs, or kind of this symbol, just add a little bit continuity, probably for your own sake.

Mike Reuter: 32:26

Yes. So that, yes, because in order to I did an experiment, once, where I had we, I sort of did a version of this except as a group, I split some teams into two groups, and each of them developed a map together, and then they were gonna start turn around and run the other half of the group through theirs. And that role of actually being the Game Master, proved to be very challenging. So I will Game Master for this combined dungeon that has all the rooms in it. So I have to understand, in the end, what they how they populate the rooms and how they sort of define them and describe what's in them has to be fairly consistent so that a door is a door secret door is a secret door throughout the whole thing. So I can navigate them all through that. Yeah, there's sort of a basic key that everybody uses.

Julie Cunningham: 33:26

That key reminded me of when you make a circuit diagrams, and how there's like, key for battery key for this might be a light bulb, it could be any sort of thing that like, except electricity, right runs and, or whatever. That's what the before I make a fool of myself on the podcast. That's what that reminded me.

Mike Reuter: 33:45

Yeah. Because when we're because, you know, there are 1000s and 1000s of people making role playing game content. And any one of us has to be able to pick up something that someone else made and understand, at least from a physical map angle, what it is that I'm looking at before even I get to the descriptions now

Julie Cunningham: 34:09

almost like its own language. Mad question I was thinking of when it came to mapping is when you were in our space, and you were laying out those hexagons, like can you just briefly talk about all the different ways you've tried to sort of get this idea of scale or day length? Or? I mean, I think that's really scale, certainly in math and science is really an important concept right? And looking at patterns and talking about well, if I move this far in a day, like that's how many hours and you are trying to really help students have a little bit of that reality I think in their game or a little bit of

Mike Reuter: 34:54

Yes, so, internet when you're walking inside or underground We use for the graph paper. And each square on the graph paper is usually about 10 feet. So that's fairly easy for players to grasp. And then it's easy to layer on that, you know, so if you're underground, it's dark, you hold up a torch, the torch is gonna look, you know, four squares ahead, kind of, but when they're outside, the scales change fairly dramatically. So a lot of people use hexagons, instead of squares for mapping outside. And it also allows more freedom in terms of players wanting to go Northwest, right, where's the square doesn't really have that sort of idea. So we did this, I made this map that was very large, I think it was three by four feet in hexagons. And it was colored, and it had the entire sort of this large swamp with rivers going through lakes, they were going to have to crawl their way through. And then I cut it up into pieces. And to give for two reasons, one, so that give them the idea that you can only go so far in a day. So we sort of decided that you could go about seven hexes in a day, right? So they knew when they asked to get across the river, they were going to get another piece of this sort of puzzle that they were counting hexes, you know, Hex was about an hour and a half. But the other reason was to sort of explore this idea of like a, they call it like the fog of war, sort of like that outside, you can't see forever. And so you can only see the hexes that you're in, sort of until you until you move to the next set that I haven't laid that piece out yet. You can't see that. And I sort of roughly laid the map out so that when they crossed the rivers are whipping up hills and things that was a dividing point between pieces of this hex map so that they didn't couldn't see over the hill to what was next. without crossing that hill. And me pulling out the next piece kind of and they were they were pretty well. It works great until someone sneezes and blows the board all over the place. But yeah, it worked pretty well. That was a good exercise.

Ashley O'Neil: 37:12

I think that's an interesting, like difference between role playing games like this, though, and maybe like a board game. And a cool difference that I think adds another layer of that critical thinking skills in that like Candyland is not a great example, because these kids are not also playing Candyland. That's a different age range, I understand. But with Candyland, or some sort of board game where you can see your end goal to get to ride whatever, you see the entire space, you see your end goal, you see which direction you need to head, you can visualize that and quantify like how many things is it going to take me to get there. And this forces that perspective taking in which the Game Master knows the entire map, and has to slowly reveal it on pace with your players. And you it's that it's like that third, that third voice omniscient or whatever, even like the voices of like, if you think about like literature, sometimes you're the first person and so you know, just as much as the characters do. And sometimes you're like third person omniscient, so you know what everybody's knowing, and you know, more than the characters. And it's that interesting play in which, you know, the DT, the Game Master knows way more the the the players know, just as much as everybody else. And it's very menu, and it grounds them in that spatial reality, which is an interesting challenge of the game. And probably something that isn't super common across across boards. I just constantly think about, so I put my teacher brain on for just a minute. And I think about getting students to write complex stories, participate in complex critical thinking around comprehension of a narrative, right work on technical mapmaking skills and spatial things and measuring things, and ingenuity and creativity all in one task. And I think about trying to apply that, like I think about students doing book studies or students doing math things. And the level of engagement that you get is far more intense. And I I wanted you on this podcast, because I want I want to have that conversation. I think about the fact that you aren't asked like, we're not grading these students. You're not. You're not we're not making them come like presumably like their parents signed them up. Yes. So there's a buy in here, but the level of critical thinking and work that they put into this game. And the skill crossover that has potential in an education building I just think is interesting to sit with. You know what I mean?

Mike Reuter: 39:39

Oh, very much so. Yes. Yes, have to step back. Okay. The first point you're saying. So that hex map, the eventual goal of the map of them wandering this swamp, was that there was this lake in the middle of smart and in the middle Lake was an island that was shrouded in fog. And so the players eventually walked the entire circumference of the land around the lake, but did not have that piece in the middle. Right. And so there was the fog was there, but they couldn't see what was inside of that. And so the trick in that was, so they would, they found some old news, some boat that they sort of patched up, and they began to roll out into the fog. And they had received a clue earlier to sort of tip them off to this if they thought about it. But you can't reach the island by paddling through the fog with your eyes open, you have to simply close your eyes and paddle. Right and so repeatedly, they would get into little and so he would, you know, have a little miniature on the map, that they get in the canoes, and they paddle into the fog. And you still don't reveal what's inside there. And then it spits them out somewhere else around the circumference of this over and over again, until they sat there and sort of think about that. And then one of them said, you know, and sort of reflected back to this clue. And they tried it with everyone closing their eyes. And then they paddled through and then you put the central piece down of that map, right. And which is sort of unique, in some ways to the this kind of game in that you can hide all of these things that aren't on the board, or at least look Candyland, everything is on the board. Whereas here, yes, you can. And you can also play with whether or not what the players are seeing is real or accurate. Sometimes that board can shift in ways or change,

Ashley O'Neil: 41:38

there's that there's an interesting crossover to the level of work that also happens in this game that is directly applicable to work, or learning in theater school,

Mike Reuter: 41:47

I think spent with the dough with everybody ever who plays, if I have done my job, right? They obsess about it, until the next time we are together. Because they are trying to get to the framework underneath it. And into sort of piece this thing together that has elements of you know, sort of this critical thinking, it has some sort of just sort of intuitive leaps here and there that you make. It has a little bit of a composition of the players that unravel things in certain ways. And so yes, if you've done your job, right, they are obsessing over how they're what is really going on? Or how they're going to solve that thing, or did they do this or that right?

Ashley O'Neil: 42:45

Or I just reminds me of those choose your own adventure books. But like it's choose your graph, like every paragraph is a decision. And so thinking about folding that complex storyline with the climax, and the conflict and the the dynamics of all of the characters of which you are one is just an incredible amount of plot work and like comprehension work, that I think this game does so spectacularly and maybe engages students who may not be like prolific readers, or who may not be prolifically, like, love a good, you know, map challenge just in the classroom. That makes sense. Like it hits all of those interesting skills in a really different way. And I don't think you've ever had to struggle with buy in with this group. Like they're, they're in it, they're in that world, right?

Mike Reuter: 43:38

Yeah, like I remember, yeah, choose your own adventure books as a kid, you know, just devouring them. But the trick there was that, you know, so if you jump ahead to page 43, well, next to page 43, is page 42. And, you know, you might look over while you're reading page 43 to see what else is going on. Right? We're here they, the gamemaster is the keeper of that there is no visible page 42 kind of and then yes, because I'm not gonna say every most role playing games, the characters fit in to one of a number of categories that allows the people playing to sort of choose a set of skills or behaviors or things like that, that they that spoke to them that are intriguing to them. And so not everybody has to be the book smart wizard in the game. There are some people who are thieves and sneak around and and then here and there. Of course we have, you know, people who decide to be fighters who are just like the answer to everything is an x ray. And they all sort of work together and if you've done it right, somehow you have you've leveraged all of their skills, so no one is bored. Everyone feels like they played a role somehow. When they're from sneaking to the axe to the wizard, thinking something through to whatever else. Yeah.

Ashley O'Neil: 45:06

And something something about that is really safe. Like when you come up with group dynamics, and you're dealing with like this middle school, or this middle school or in this middle school, or you're trying to leverage, like, who's the speaker who's going to be the note taker, who's neither whatever. But in this space, there's, it's kind of interesting, because they're still working on group dynamics. And they're still working on collaborative techniques, but they're working on it through fantasy. But I would argue that that, that those collaborative skills are going to strengthen them outside of the game as much as they're strengthening them. Like there's a crossover there.

Mike Reuter: 45:39

Very much. So yes, for sure. One of the interesting things that we are hoping to do the summer, are planning during the summer is here in there in the games, and in this hex map that they explored. They were in canoes at various points. And I remember a couple of teams in the group, one of the groups mentioned, they'd never been in a canoe. And so I thought, you know, that is something that, like we have to fix in the real world, not you know, outside of the game, because it's one thing to just experience that in the game. But if you have actually canoed that informs your experience in the game in a whole other way, right. So that sort of was the thinking behind making, you know, a whole other set of sessions that was like real world Dungeons and Dragons, right? Like, let's take kids out into the woods, put them in canoes, have them do this. So they understand when they you know, as well, that some of them are outstanding

Ashley O'Neil: 46:38

on the bow of the canoe on one foot with their bow and arrow ready to catch dinner. Like it doesn't work that way.

Mike Reuter: 46:46

This is not the bow of the Titanic, or certainly, yes, yes. And that also something I think that kids in general today, because of the advent of technology, in their lives, to the degree it is in so many of their lives, that they're not outside, as much as like I was as a kid, where a lot of the soft skills that are in the games that you sort of play it through your character we had done out in the real world, like make a fire and build a shelter, and climb trees and scout and things like that, right? It's so yes, your hope in ways that the game wants its causes them to go out and do that in the real world. And so in the summer or the summer, we you know, we'll give them the opportunity to do that, as well. Yeah.

Ashley O'Neil: 47:39

Yeah, yeah. But you can't move as quickly through the woods as you can on a paved road. So there's a cost to moving through the woods, and maybe you've gained stealth, but you want to speed because you're climbing over things, and you're clambering through things, and it's not a direct path and your line of your line of sight is reduced. Yes.

Mike Reuter: 47:56

There's that like surprise that we have it like walking through the swamp is slower than through town? Yes, yes. Yes. Yep. Yes, yes. And hopefully this summer, we're going to make some of you experienced that firsthand. Yes,

Julie Cunningham: 48:12

we've had a fair amount of new players come to the game through you by you and your work. Like, was there anything that they bring with them that makes them more or less successful? Or whether they think they need it or not? Or is it sort of seems like it's accessible to almost any student who wants to begin to play, regardless of whether they we've had a couple of students? I'm thinking of that said, I'm not that interested. I'm too old to begin. Now these other kids have been playing for a while. I don't know if I can join in. And it seems like they've been equally as successful as some student who's been there for a little while. I mean, is that is that accurate? Is it mostly an accessible game or?

Mike Reuter: 49:02

Yes, absolutely. I think one of the things one of the criticisms I think I would have about some of the big role playing game systems out there is that they do make the game in some ways appear to be esoteric and sort of difficult to learn. But fundamentally, you can create a role playing game from scratch with as meaningful rule set in 10 minutes with a deck of cards or a six sided dice as any of the huge commercial systems out there, the complexity in rules and you know, sort of esoteric procedures and some of that, that's all I would say. overcomplicated frosting, yes, for sure. And very unnecessary. So I always like to strip all as much of that out of the game. as possible, and make it about the collaborative storytelling and thinking part of it, and much less about the memorization of tables and all sorts of yes, a very complicated, layered rules that are fine if people choose to go down that route and want to do that. But in no way to is that required for the game, you can literally sit down and create your own in a matter of minutes with, you know, just sit down and figure out what you want to do and what is considered a success and what's considered a failure. and off you go.

Ashley O'Neil: 50:40

One of the things that I observed, particularly when I was working when I was watching that parent student Duo's and we did that online. And that was just super fascinating to me was that, I think, oftentimes, middle schoolers and maybe adults do think you need to come in with like bravery and like wit to kind of fight your way through this game. And there is like a, there is like a weaponry or a fighting element to this game that is definitely there in the fact that oftentimes, they come into dangerous elements and need to escape or get through them. But as I watched those students grow over time. And I think we've had players now who've been with us for several rounds and seasons, I think they get more caught up in the storytelling and the thinking aspect. And yes, there still is that like impulsivity, like, I'm going to brandish my whip whenever I can. And I'd like to kind of show myself as this brave hero, but it's less about the heroics. And the better players, I think, are the ones who are more of a thinker, and are more imaginative, and how they approach problems. And I've seen that kind of grow with some of the players in the adult group. And I've also seen it with our middle school group.

Mike Reuter: 51:54

I think the least interesting part of the game, and I don't think I'm at all alone in this is when the game becomes bogged down in round after round of rolling dice, to see whether you hit something, whether you miss something, whether it hit you, the narrative of the game breaks down very quickly, in that because there's only so many ways you can describe whether someone missed in swinging at you or hit you or you hit them very quickly, the game changes very quickly, when that happens. So you have to be, you have to manage that aspect of the game. So that the game continues to be compelling, especially people who are not, who are who have a lot of experience playing the game. They really like in a lot of cases, because they have spent a lot of time and investment in the complicated depth of rules. There are they know a lot of you know, these different situations and contingencies and some of these things that happen. But for everyone else, and myself included, the much more interesting part of it is this collaborative storytelling. So like, for example, the adult group. So I am you I am probably in terms of knowing what's going to happen or where they're going, at most a session ahead, right. And so I am experiencing the evolution or the unrolling of the story, right alongside the players, right? And so what they do will guide where this goes, right. And so I just have to sort of start figuring out, okay, so if they head in that direction, or if they take that from away from this set of interactions, and they want to do this, I've got to sort of flesh that out and get when it's done really, really well. I am not that far ahead of the players because they may take a right turn to take the story in a whole other direction. If I have them on rails, and they don't feel like they have the freedom to do that. It's not remotely as interesting of a game

Ashley O'Neil: 54:09

to hold on to this storytelling is responsive in both directions. To close our episode. Today, we're going to bring you back into the world that Mike created for us at the beginning of this podcast, the overturned wagon, the sagging buildings nestled close to the sea. And we're going to invite you to use some of the skills we discussed in the episode today. formulating questions, building scenarios listening for clues and details to see what creativity sparks and hey, if inspiration truly takes hold, email us about it at C ese at C M I C h.edu. Now, back to the turn

Narrator: 54:56

the head, lanterns flicker and grease paper Windows only build shows much sign life when brings you the scrape chair on wooden floor clattering utensils on plates boots even a little laughter tighten your fingers around the strapping your sack you can't help glance once back in the direction where you came back with that wagon is nothing but darkness now but you're almost sure you can see the RIP Canvas moving in the wind your boots meet wouldn't step you open the door few Facebook I bet you're smart as well. Continue with their dinner conversation. You don't linger. Single figure seated way in the back at a table by themselves as fixed on you and their hands, small satchel, fingers fidgeting with string. They're smart enough to know the value of what they got. And either desperate or dumb enough to be sitting here all alone in this tavern at night holding it. You walk towards that figure sitting in the corner. Really though, you walk in walking towards that satchel dark business