Everything but the Book Study: The Education Huddle

This week, we discuss an article by Heather Bailie Shock called: I Adapted a Hospital Practice for Teacher Prep. It Was Transformative. The article describes how a shes used huddles to make her teaching practices explicit, helping student teachers understand classroom strategies. We talk about how this relates to our work with classroom and pre-service teachers. 

Intro Music: David Biedenbender

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Transcript

Julie Cunningham: 0:00

Okay, now we're recording. So welcome to teach wonder. Yes. Welcome to teach wonder, a podcast hostedby Ashley O'Neill and Julie Cunningham. Julie

Ashley O'Neil: 0:20

welcome back to another episode of teach wonder. We are in the middle of a bit of a mini series where Julie and or I bring a piece of content, an article, a podcast, something that we've engaged with that week, and share it with the other person and have a dialog that you hopefully get to learn a little bit of something from. We're calling this mini series, everything but the book. And today we've got an article that popped up genuinely, you know, when you are doing that Google, like, you open up a new internet browser and there's just like, the nine windows, and it's like, here's a recipe about cheese, and here's like, something about the Oscars. Well, it popped up in that, like, nine windows, and the title did what it was supposed to do, and it grabbed my attention, so I immediately sent it to Julie, and it reminded us of some work that we're doing. So we wanted to share with you today. And the title of the article that caught my attention is, I adapted a hospital practice for teacher prep. It was transformative. Medical style huddles helped my student teachers see classroom strategies. And it's written by Heather Bailey shock, and it's from February 23 so it's a pretty recent article. So Julie, you saw the title when I send it to you in your inbox, and what did it make you think about?

Julie Cunningham: 1:45

Well, it made me think about, we finished up an NSF grant. But the premise to the NSF grant was the research that we did, like the lit review for the NSF grant that and it often does happen, I think, in medicine, because people see themselves there as professionals and or and experts, right? Doctors, nurses, surgeons, whatever. And if you see yourself as an expert in your profession, right? Meaning, you do things that if others try to do them by emulating you, it's not going to go the same without unpacking that like without right? If so, if you got X number of hours and time practicing this to be a doctor or a surgeon or a nurse, right, somebody else probably can't just walk in the room and do what you do just by seeing it, yeah. And so I think medical personnel have understood that, and therefore their teaching practices might help somebody else be the professional and the expert,

Ashley O'Neil: 3:01

yeah, and it's a really application based profession, right? Like, I don't really care if my doctor can pass up multiple choice quiz with 100% you know, score over and over again. I care that my doctor can in the field with me, the patient, the person, apply all of this knowledge to something really real, and then do the thing that they need to do to make my life better, to make me healthier, to give me surgery, whatever, right? And I think that that disconnect, or that application focus, like you were saying, Yes, we treat them like professionals. We also understand the vast majority of the work a teacher does is applying things in the field, in real context with lots of different variables, is a really interesting way to approach it. So basically, this article is not super long, but basically it talks about some an observation that we've made over and over again, which is basically this person teaches future classroom teachers, and so she's in her classroom, she's intentionally modeling, you know, various group structures. She's modeling checks for understanding. She's modeling multiple modalities. She's modeling all of these other things. And then when she asks students to name teaching strategies that they notice just kind of broadly, like, what did you notice me do? The students couldn't even, like, name one. And these are students, presumably, that things had been going well in her classroom, right? And we've seen that before, where, in a paper, pencil, abstract way, students can name classroom practices, but then the moment you ask them to transfer that and shift it to like now they're unable to do so. And so her kind of aha moment was that they were engaged. They were taking notes. But that the pedagogical why behind her moves was remaining invisible, and so she was frustrated, right? And she did some thinking about what she needed to do to adjust, and her answer was to do exactly what we've mentioned, which is this medical huddle, which is basically, I mean, if you've seen a medical TV show, I don't claim to be a doctor, I don't play one on TV, but if you've seen any. Sort of medical drum, or you've been in a hospital situation, you see that, if it's a teaching or learning hospital, the interns follow the resident doctors around, right? They are in the space and then often just outside the room. Sometimes, you know, in my situation, they've stayed in the room and they talk about you, and they say, what was going on with this case? What did you notice? Why did you think that? Why did I make this decision? And they do it right there. They make as the article says, they make these. They make everything deliberate and concise, and they turn the implicit into the explicit. And so her then transfer was to go back to her class, and she does these mid, mid situation, huddles. Now the thing that I thought was interesting, which is different than how I think we are considering applying this, is that she does this with herself. So in her model, she goes back to the classroom, she'll pause her own teaching, do a huddle, and she asked three questions. She asks, What did you see me do our model today? What issues or concerns should we discuss next week? And then what should we celebrate this week? And those three questions done in that moment with some other training and practice is kind of how she runs her huddles. Now, when you and I have talked about doing this, we are talking about it a little bit differently. Do you want to talk about the way we're hoping to maybe apply this with our pre service teachers, since we don't have them for a formal class at the University.

Julie Cunningham: 6:27

Well, in our in our grant, we did it with faculty. And the research that was behind it was that there was four stages of this us, four stages of like teaching undergraduate pre service teachers, right? The implicit and the modeling and then the explicit, which is what you mentioned here, where you're unpacking your own practice with the students, or teaching in such a way that you're making your thinking explicit. And the third level was having students reflect on the explicit instruction. And then the fourth level was adding pedagogical research to the previous three levels of instruction. So that's what the grants premise was, and and it came out of just exactly what you said, like just noticing that even though our pre service teachers would see really great practices modeled, and why would we expect them to be able to understand that, right? Just because they saw someone else do it. So that's the whole premise behind seeing an expert do it doesn't mean that you can just, even though it was modeled for you, you don't know how that person got to be an expert in the field. You don't know the decisions they made along the way, if you can't see that explicit thinking. So I guess that's then fast forward to what we're doing in the makerspace is a little bit different, because we're not teaching a class with the pre service teachers that are in here working with children. So we've had to do more of it well two ways, one, using a reflection tool and helping students to unpack their reflections that way. And then secondly, work that we've done with PD, with Dr Corey Drake during the semester, where we've helped students put themselves in that role, and kind of think reflect on what they see, both implicit and explicitly offered in the MakerSpace.

Ashley O'Neil: 8:50

Yeah, and I think that the the opportunities that exist is that when we see, and we have been fortunate enough to see some really fantastic teaching from some of our in the classroom teachers, right? Julie and I have both been lucky enough to be in several classrooms around the region, and there's so much nuance to any sort of pedagogical tool, right? And one of the things that really got me as an early teacher was that. So let's say that you know you use differentiated instruction, or you do multiple modalities, right? Well, a lot of that is you really have to understand your students and the skill comes in and how definitely you can apply like all of these strategies, and know when to push in and when to pull back and which one to use from your toolbox. And one of the things I think could be really lovely and beautiful is that, let's say we're watching a teacher engage with a student, and we have the opportunity to hear them say, well, I could have done a or b, and because I know this about student, a, I. I decided that this was the best one, because and you get that really, really in the moment, nuanced thing. The other thing I think a lot about is that anytime we can close the distance between what students are doing with a book or with a PowerPoint or learning like abs in the abstract, or even from a video, right? Like, because a video is a moment in time, it is often a curated example of a classroom practice that's kind of like tidy and ready to go, and we don't get to talk to that person, but anytime we can close the difference the distance between the the abstract knowledge and then, like the application or that, this is what it looks like in real time. And these are all of the other decisions that go along with this thing that's hard to explain in a textbook, but easier to understand when you see the example, I think we're doing our future teachers a better service of showing them the constant application that happens in the classroom, which is what they're going to experience. Right? You don't have time to sit and reference a book and look at what strategy you're going to do. Sometimes you need to make that decision now, and hearing the teacher kind of walk through why they made the decision, which strategy they decided to use, over and over again. I think that's such a powerful way to build in a in a human centered profession, how to hand, how to work with humans, you know?

Julie Cunningham: 11:22

Yeah, well, and the other, the other argument for it is like you, you can see and appreciate a really good teacher, right? You can see their instruction in action, and you can appreciate even that, that that is difficult, but that they're making it look easy, right? But knowing how to get there yourself is difficult, right? Like, how did they know how to build those groups? How did they know what, how to how to tweak the groups once they were made? Or, how did they know how to give this group a little bit more latitude while holding that group a little bit more accountable, right? How did they you know, that's a and so those are decisions that really good teachers make in their head all day long. But it's really hard for anyone else to see that thinking, and I think it's easier for people to think about anything. I've said this a million times, but think about anything new that you're learning to do. So if it's I don't know how to swim the Front crawl, or if it's you know, whatever it is, right? And like, I could go watch an Olympic swimmer in the pool, and I can watch them, and probably I can pick up some tips. But is that going to make me an Olympic swimmer next time I go in the pool? Probably not, right? Probably I have to start somewhere else and build my skills. And it would be much easier if somebody would say, These are the skills that you're working to build. Here's how to practice. Oh, and I'll help you by watching along the way to tell you your kick could be a little bit butter timed or whatever it is, right? And, I mean, for me, it's like a really easy my the agility dog work, the agility work I do with my dog is a really easy example for me, right? Because I am so far from an expert at agility, and I can't just watch a bunch of dog shows on TV and, like, just be an expert. So, right? That's a really easy example for me to know that. You know, I have to be coached. And in order to be coached, like we do, talking out on the course about, what are we seeing, what are we doing? Why do we make the decisions we make? And then each time you get a little bit better at it, right?

Ashley O'Neil: 13:42

Yeah, absolutely. And I think you said something that made me think about the fact that this stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum. So, like, when, like, why did you make these intentional groups? And I think a lot about, well, we'll talk with teachers, or we'll talk with pre service teachers that want to try something new in their classroom, and then in that new thing they want to try are like, 450 implicit skills that those students need to have practice with or exposure to or something in order for that new thing to really, really, really land, you know. And a lot of times we can see that where even, even a teacher who's been in the field for a bit and has, like, a lot of fantastic skills. We don't often let ourselves think that way. To back up and say, Okay, what are all these other explicit skills? And so how powerful would it be? If you know, you these students watch, like, a 10 minute video of reading groups working so smoothly and lovely. And the only reason that they actually work that well is because for the three months prior, they've been kind of building in all of these other things. And if there was a huddle or the sometimes like in the moment learning, you'd get to hear the teacher talk about, well, in order to do this, we had to make this happen. And I made this decision because of these things that happened outside of the frame of time when you came into my classroom, because very. Rarely do teachers like just drop in and do something in a day that doesn't impact the future and doesn't build off of the past. And so I think opportunities like this to kind of break down that wall would be so, so very helpful. One of the comments that she makes in this article, just to kind of bring it back to what she was sharing, I know it brought up a lot of thinking for us, is that she noticed that over time, as with any tool in a classroom, when she first started doing these huddles, their first answers were kind of broad, kind of vague. You had us working groups, you had you asked us a question, but then over time, with practice, their observations were sharper and more sophisticated. Those were her words, which I really appreciated. And it reminds me a lot of times, is that when we first try something new with students, it can be easy if we don't see that success right away to say like, oh, it's not really going to work for us. But as she points out, this invitation was structured and predictable, and it was the revisiting of the way we're doing this over and over and over again that made it safe or comfortable for students to then grow and become more confident in asking their questions. Yeah, and

Julie Cunningham: 16:09

I think there's two things and you touched on that right there about being safe that also come out of this article, or that, first of all, being explicit in your instruction is not natural for most people who are teaching pre service teachers, or probably most people in general, takes a bit of vulnerability right to share all of your your your thinking behind the scenes, your What did I do and why? Or maybe this didn't work, right? And that's another vulnerability, and then I'm admitting that it didn't work, and I'm admitting that I could have done it differently, or I could have done it better, or, in retrospect, I would have liked to have done X, Y or Z. All that takes being vulnerable. And sometimes people who are experts at something don't necessarily want to be seen as vulnerable at that same thing, right? And then secondarily, the students have to be sort of vulnerable. I mean, it's much easier to sit back in a classroom and not participate and just listen, right, and not be the one who's taking risks in terms of answering the teacher or describing what they see, or, again, potentially being wrong in front of your peers. So both sides of that coin, take some vulnerabilities, take some risks in the classroom, that students and the instructor, and I don't think it's always a comfortable place for the instructor to live. So So I just think, like recognizing that is, you know, a part of it.

Ashley O'Neil: 17:44

And I feel like I just want to say because I know our audience is really broad, that this, the container of this article is that this was young adults who are going to be classroom teachers. And so this meta kind of peeling back the curtain is powerful for their own practice. I don't think what either you or I are saying is that these kind of this type of huddle would be the right move for a third grader. Like, does a third grader need to know the pedagogical name of the thing that you did? Probably not. But does it apply? And is there a way that we can build kind of reflective learners and people to say, hey, we're going to have like, a five minute huddle at the end of the day. And what would these questions look like? What did you see me do today that was helpful to you? Right? Maybe the question is different, and it's more about like, it's helpful for us. When you do XYZ, and you the children, are then forced to think about, what was this? What was supportive to them as a learner? So I don't want to walk away and be like, Hey, we're supposed to have these huddles and feel that pedagogical, because I've seen that before, right where then teachers try to explain their justification to a nine year old. And that's not the same, but it is an interesting practice. And I do wonder for our classroom teachers, is there something like this that you could do for yourself? Because I also imagine that this teacher had to become sharper with her own justifications, and had to be more comfortable with explaining her why. And did that help her practice at all? I imagine it would help mine. If I knew I had to answer why to all of the things I was doing, I would put be putting a lot of thought into my why. So it just made me curious that way,

Julie Cunningham: 19:17

when I did last time I taught Edu 107 at the university. I did do this for because I wanted to see if it would work before we had the NSF grant. And I don't mind not being the expert in the classroom or being seen that way, right? And so I would think about, and you don't do it with everything that you did. I mean, right? You would get old. So I would think about, what was it that I wanted to point out, or have the students unpack that day, right? And it might have been my lesson plan going in and something that didn't work, or it might have been my opening activity. But, I mean, I don't know if you remember, but I was like, I was like, I'm gonna MA. Go greeting them in the hall by their name, and make eye contact and have, like, a question that has nothing to do with the class today. And then you guys all helped me here figure out what that question should be, so that it felt non judgmental right to get in the classroom, because you don't want a question that feels judgmental. So then I just unpacked that with them, right? And like, Why did I pick the question I picked, and how did that make you feel on the way in as a student, and so flipping back and forth between their student hat and their teacher hat, and then that was it. That was the only thing that we unpacked that day, right? It wasn't like the whole lesson plan got unpacked. It was just this opening activity. And I like to say things like, well, there was a benefit that the benefit was, you saw, you felt seen, we had a little bit of conversation. You felt heard. What was my cost on the other end? Right? My cost is I don't have my computer on, I don't have my whatever ready to go, right? Because I was in the hallway talking with students. So there's a cost. Can I do that every single day? I don't know, right, but I have to decide, is that benefit worth it every single day? Because the cost is now I need to have something for you students to do while I get sort of set up in front of the class. And maybe that's a cost I can afford every day, and maybe it's not, but just like that was the only one thing we unpacked that day, yep, as an example, I was thinking that what it looks like when you do it, when you are doing it with K 12 students as a teacher, then it's a fishbowl that it's watching the students do it with one another, I think.

Ashley O'Neil: 21:31

And I think that there's a place for that when you're trying to teach, like, a new collaboration skill, or a new group work skill, particularly, right? And like, there's those soft skills that happen in group work, and to make a lot of the work that we talk about when it comes to PBL, etc, you know, manageable. And yes, then it's a fishbowl to say, what were the moves that the students made together? And then

Julie Cunningham: 21:52

they're more looking at each other, rather than because that's where you're at in your classroom with third graders or fourth graders

Ashley O'Neil: 21:59

or whatever. But, and again, like small, right? Like, development appropriate. Developmentally, it should be much briefer and, and, and, like, a touch point for like, a second grader than it should be for AP, 11th grader, right? Cool. Well, this again, I thought this article was really interesting. I think about what it would have been like for me. I'm happening. You know, I learned a lot from my undergrad, but what would it have been like had we had these kind of debrief moments? And it seems like a really interesting way again, to just like, go back to application, and I like what you said about elevating and treating you like an expert and a professional. Thanks. Yeah. Hi. This is teach wonder brought to you by the Center for Excellence in STEM education. Links are in the show notes and transcripts are on our site. You