On this episode we talk with author and recruiting consultant, Eric Harkins. He shares the core principles from his book, Great Leaders Make Sure Monday Morning Doesn't Suck. Essentially how companies and manager can build a culture that high performers want to be a part of. We also discuss his thoughts on the great resignation. Enjoy.
On this episode we talk with author and recruiting consultant, Eric Harkins. He shares the core principles from his book, Great Leaders Make Sure Monday Morning Doesn't Suck. Essentially how companies and manager can build a culture that high performers want to be a part of. We also discuss his thoughts on the great resignation. Enjoy.
Ben (00:00):
You are listening to get more done as you can book me podcast. I'm your host, Ben Dlugiewicz. Each month YouCanBook.me, helps millions of people all over the world save time by automating their scheduling of meetings. We wanted to explore other aspects of productivity. So each episode we will talk with entrepreneurs, consultants, managers, and business leaders, to understand how they're helping their team and clients level up, use automation to scale, and essentially do more with less. On this episode, I caught up with Eric Harkins. Eric is the president of GKG consulting, a firm that specializes in helping businesses attract and retain talented employees. After his 25 years of experience in the recruiting and human resources space, Eric has written the book, great leaders make sure Monday morning doesn't suck a guide to building great workplace culture. In our conversation, we talk about how companies can build their culture. A high performers want to be a part of enjoy.
Ben (01:09):
Welcome back to get more done the podcast, all about productivity, doing more with less, and just crushing of goals today. I'm sitting down with Eric Harkins, author speaker, president at GKG search and consulting. So Eric, welcome to the podcast.
Eric (01:22):
Hey Ben, it's great to be here. Really looking forward to the conversation. I know it's gonna be a fun one.
Ben (01:28):
Yeah. It should be a good time. Excited to dig into everything that, uh, that you've been working on. So we start these conversations just with an icebreaker question to break up the nerves a little bit and just to get a bit more comfortable. So with this one, um, this is gonna be maybe, uh, a bit difficult to answer, but if you had to sing karaoke right now, <laugh> which song would you pick and why? Uh,
Eric (01:51):
Boy, I wouldn't really wish that on the audience to have to listen to me, sing, trust me. I, I always think I sound great in the car and my family reminds me. I, I don't, uh, but I think the last time saying karaoke, I, uh, you know, I got the crowd going with some Neil diamond, little sweet Caroline. So I'd probably, uh, stick with what I know.
Ben (02:11):
<laugh> yeah, that's a crowd. Favorite little Neil Diamond classic cut. Yeah, that's right after a couple of drinks. Everybody's good at karaoke.
Eric (02:17):
Everybodys, sweet Caroline. And, uh, you can have some fun with it, so yeah.
Ben (02:20):
Really built it out. Awesome. That's right. Tell us a little bit more about your book. Uh, great leaders. I mean it's big hefty title. Yeah. Great leaders make sure Monday morning doesn't suck. What, what motivated you to write this book?
Eric (02:32):
You know, uh, it, so many people are like, Hey, you know, when did you start working on it? Or, you know what, and it's really interesting. I mean, in, in a former life, uh, I was leading HR at a company and I finished a meeting one day and, and some, somebody from the team came up and said, Hey, Eric, have you ever thought about writing a book? And I really hadn't. I mean, it wasn't a bucket list item, not something I thought I'd do. I said, no, why, why do you say that? And he said, well, I don't know. You've got all these funny stories, but I also learned a lesson you've, you know, had these bunch of experience. And I don't know, I think it'd be a good book. I said, all right, whatever, didn't do anything with it. And, uh, probably two months later, he, he stopped by my office and he said, uh, Hey, how's the book coming?
Eric (03:13):
<laugh>. I said, there's no book. And he said, there's a book and, and you need to write it. And, uh, uh, he said, just write me one chapter. And so I did that. I wrote a chapter and it was kind of fun actually. And then literally I didn't do anything for several years. And then, uh, my last job in corporate America before I started GKG I was the head of HR for a retailer that had 1100 locations and 47 states. So I was on an airplane a lot, and I just had time on my hands and I started writing and kind of putting it down. And then I decided to start, uh, my own consulting firm and, and decided to finish the book. So it's been a really cool project, but yeah, great leaders make sure Monday morning doesn't suck. And, uh, you know, probably 10 or 15 years ago, I, I just sort of came up with it. I was talking to a leader and I said, you know, I don't really care what your job title is. If you're a leader of people, as far as I'm concerned, you really, you really only have one job that's to make sure Monday morning doesn't suck and it kind of stuck and I've used it ever since. And now we're having a lot of fun with the book.
Ben (04:13):
Yeah, totally. And, and what, what do you hope like the big takeaway is for all the managers or really anybody reading
Eric (04:19):
The book? Yeah. You know, I think what I learned in my career and I was really lucky. I mean, I spent 25 years as I like to say, getting my butt kicked in corporate America, but I worked for fortune 50 companies. I worked for privately held companies. I worked for family owned businesses. I worked for private equity back companies. So I had all these really cool experiences. And what I learned is that companies don't set an expectation for their leaders on how they want them to show up. All these companies are spending time working on their values and they're working on, you know, we're gonna be the best place to work, but it falls apart when you have bad leaders and is simple. And one of the tools that we talk about in the book is this tool called lead. And I've used it at several different companies.
Eric (05:02):
And now I use it in my consulting practice and it stands for leadership expectations and development. And it's eight simple questions that you ask of the leaders in your company. And what I found is when you do that, especially all the way upstream, like in the interview process, Hey, if you're gonna join the company and work here, let us tell you you what we're gonna expect of you, cuz as you know, ask any leader what their job is and they'll tell you, oh, I'm a director of finance. I'm a manager of HR ask any leader, Hey, what do you do to make sure Monday morning doesn't suck and you get this really interesting reaction. And so the takeaway is I think companies underestimate how much value there is by setting an expectation of if you are gonna lead people. These are the things that are important to us and that's what lead is all about. Yeah.
Ben (05:50):
I think setting that expectation to get everybody in alignment because not thinking about that, I mean, you, it could be a detriment to your team and their growth and their potential for sure.
Eric (06:00):
Well, and it, and it makes, you know, conversations around performance, both high performance and under performance really easy and it's not personal. Uh, Hey, we talked about, you know, bringing energy and enthusiasm to work every day is one of the bullets of lead. And you know, you, you're walking around here, like you're having the worst day of your life every day. You know, you're a leader, we, you know, talk to us, but let's have that conversation. You know, what, what, what can we do to help you bring a little more energy? And, and then it's not personal. It's just, Hey, you point back to these set of expectations because we've let you know, that's what we're gonna look for. Exactly.
Ben (06:33):
Yeah. So, and there's no, no surprise and is saying, Hey, you're not abiding by the thing we agreed to for sure. Right. So, so in your book you also talk about your, your three rules. So what, what are the, what are those three magical rules?
Eric (06:44):
Yeah. Well, I'll, uh, I'll preface this, uh, to your audience that, uh, I do use some, uh, some adult words as I like to say. And so, uh, brace yourself here, but uh, having a lot of fun with the three rules and really they started out it as lessons and in the book, I talk about how throughout my career, they kind of morphed into rules, but I also used to say, Hey, there's three lessons I've learned along the way, lesson number one, it's okay to have fun at work. It really is. People contrary, popular belief in some companies it's okay to have fun at work lesson number two, poor performing employees don't quit voluntarily. We all wish they did, but they don't. But the most important lesson, which became rule number three, lesson in rule, number three, or, they don't change. And that's all about who you allow to be a leader in your company.
Eric (07:37):
And I love, I love having the conversation. I do a lot of speaking and you know, every now and then somebody will ask me, Hey Eric, what's your definition of an? And I always tell 'em, you know what? I actually don't know what the definition is, but I know who they are. And every company I ever worked in and when I'm doing a speaking engagement, you can just see the heads nodding. You know, as soon as I say, rule number three, somebody popped into their mind. And whoever popped into your mind is the person we're talking about that you need to address at your company.
Ben (08:04):
Right. Right. I don't know what it is, but I know when I see it. Right, exactly, exactly.
Eric (08:09):
That's right.
Ben (08:10):
Yeah. That makes total sense. And it's like, people aren't gonna change. They're not gonna fundamentally change who they are. I mean, they can learn new tactics, new things, but at the core of themselves,
Eric (08:18):
Right. I mean, that's the second part of it, right? I mean, we are who we are and you know, if you're just the type of person that, you know, treats people poorly, doesn't want to get to know your team. Doesn't, you know, I use the analogy in the book. I mean, why do some people walk by the receptionist if you have one and if you're in an office without even acknowledging them and other people stop and Hey, how was your weekend? And they get to know 'em on a level. Um, some people walk by that piece of trash, that's on the middle of, in the middle of the hall in your office. And some people stop and pick it up. And you know, that doesn't mean you're an, but just we are who we are. Right. We do what we do. And, and if we value relationships and you know, one of the eight questions that we ask with lead is do your leaders build relationships at all levels of the organization? And that's all about, do they show as much, uh, support and gratitude to the lowest level person in the company as they do the CEO? Because there is no difference. They're both contributing to the end goal. And so, yeah, it's uh, some simple concepts, but yeah, the three lessons which now we talk about is rules. Uh, they are so real, have fun. Don't let underperformers show up and don't let bad leaders lead people. And I can promise you, you can create a culture where Monday morning doesn't suck. Brilliant,
Ben (09:32):
Brilliant. And in your, in your consulting group, now the GKG stands for get, keep and grow essentially the talent. So how are you helping your clients do that?
Eric (09:42):
Yeah. Uh, you know, another thing I used to come up with to me, I was lucky enough to be the head of HR at three different companies throughout my career. And I, all of sudden, you know, at the end of the day, there's only three things that we need to help the business with getting talent, keeping and talent and growing talent. If 95% of our conversations are, you know, focused on those three things, everything else is gonna fall into place. So GKG does a number of different things. Uh, we kind of start in the middle, right? A typical engagement is about, Hey, if you're not gonna keep people, if you have the wrong leaders, so we're gonna come in, we're gonna use this tool a lead. We're gonna assess all of your leaders. And then based on that, and this is the hard part, it's easy to say, yep, I wanna do that assessment.
Eric (10:26):
It gets real when you start doing the assessment. But if you do an honest assessment of the leaders in your company, you have to have two different outcomes. You are gonna identify some leaders who are not go going to be part of your future, but you're gonna identify leaders who are gonna be a big part of your future. So at that point, the sort of get, and the grow comes into place where we do have a executive search practice where we do a lot of search work. We do that separately too, just, uh, you know, retain search. And then we do executive coaching and some transition services for those leaders who are high performers. And for those leaders who have to figure out what they're gonna do next. And so it's really, uh, let us come in and be sort of your partner in the leadership assessment and identifying and addressing where you have gaps and continuing to focus on your high performers and, and helping them Excel. So get, keep grow. And, uh, yeah, we start, I started the, uh, company actually technically, I guess, two years ago this month. So it's, uh, it's been a really awesome experience and, uh, we're having a lot of fun helping a lot of different companies.
Ben (11:28):
Wow. Happy birthday to GTG. That's awesome to hear. Um, and when you say that, I think of that, that scene from office space where the bobs come in and they're like, tell me what you actually do. You, when you, when you go in there, do you get maybe some flack from managers? Were they, like, I know I'm kind of a Dick and now yeah.
Eric (11:46):
It's well, it's really interesting. You, you ask that because, uh, I, I can typically get a pretty good sense, like, is the person threatened? Who are you, why you asking me these questions? Like, if you're confident in who you are, if you're an engaging leader, you should be excited to talk to anyone. Right. And that probably I would, as I would guess in most cases, that's how it shows up on a daily basis, right? Like, Hey, I'm having a meeting with team and, and my boss or somebody, some other leader walks in the room and instead of saying, oh, Hey, cool, Ben's here. Come on in. What's going on? What, you know, what can we do for you? It's well, why the heck are you? This is my team. Why are you here? And so there is probably a little bit of a correlation, but what I find more often than not is, you know, we sit down with a CEO or a senior leader and we start a assessing their team. And there's eight questions that we ask and we get to about question four and you can see the light bulb <laugh> and sometimes the light bulb is holy crap. Ben, Ben really is a high performer for us. He's doing all these things, but unfortunately more often not it's oh boy. And then I'll always say, yeah, we still have four more questions. So we're, we're not quite done yet, but, uh, yeah. Oh boy. We kind of know what we need to focus on. So
Ben (13:00):
Yeah. Makes, makes total sense. And, and previously we had a, had a guest on just talking a bit about culture for recruiting and retention. So what are some ways that you've helped your clients or you've seen other companies improve their culture?
Eric (13:14):
Yeah. You know, one of the things I like to talk about is this concept that performance management is not a one time event. And, uh, a lot of people, when they hear performance management, they think of two things, the annual review process or under performers, and, you know, we, what do we do about 'em? And what I always talk about is listen, the whole performance management umbrella is very fluid and it shouldn't be just a review or just when you're so frustrated with somebody you've kind of lost any interest in letting them be successful. Again, you just want, 'em gone, whatever that it starts during the interview process, what are you doing as a company, in every single interaction, including the very first kind conversation with a potential candidate to tell them why they should be so lucky to work at your company. Here's what makes us special.
Eric (14:03):
Here's what makes us different. Here's why Monday morning, doesn't suck at our company. And then you hire 'em. What are you doing during that onboarding process to make that connection to the brand and the story. So many companies hire somebody and they say, well, they're coming in with eight years of experience. They know what they're doing, right. So, Hey, welcome to the team. Here's your computer. I'll meet you for lunch. Here's your work. And you know, they're writing code within two minutes of starting. And it's like, well, what if you took a day or two and actually told them everything there is to know about the company. What's important, what we stand for, the leadership values, et cetera. And yeah, you gotta wait a couple days before they start, but when they start, they're so much more embedded in what they're trying to accomplish. And I think the miss is that companies don't take the time and recruiters don't take the time during the interview pro you know, they jump right into these interview questions.
Eric (15:04):
Tell me about this. Tell me about that. I actually, I'm either a really good or a really bad interview, or, but when I interview someone, I probably talk 75% of the time. And the candidate talks 25% of the time, because what I'm trying to gauge is are they a cultural fit? When I ask 'em a question, what's their reaction to that question? So I'll ask candidates, Hey, you're a leader. What have you done throughout your career to make sure Monday morning doesn't sock? And if they're confused by the question threatened by the question, don't want to answer the question. I got my answer now. They've probably never heard that question before, but if they're like, huh, that's a really interesting question. I, yeah, well, here's what I try to do. Then we have this really engaging conversation. So, you know, spend less time assume the resume is right. Most people don't lie on their resume. I look at a LinkedIn profile. I say, okay, Hey, if they've held these jobs, they know what the job is. I need to figure out if they're gonna be the right cultural fit. And, and if they lied on their resume, we're gonna figure that out within the first month or so. And then we'll address it if we need to. But most people's resume is correct. So take it to face value, focus more on the cultural fit.
Ben (16:15):
Yeah. So building culture just starts from the people you're bringing in. Right. And making sure that they're jiving with everything you got going on.
Eric (16:22):
Yeah. I mean, I think where lead really came to life. So I mentioned my last corporate experience. We were a retailer. We ran 1100 retail locations and we were in a very enviable position because we were a company that came together because a private equity group had bought four different companies in this space. And our job was to consolidate 'em into one new organization. And that included opening a brand new corporate headquarters. So what we did is in every single interview, <affirmative> we talked about two things and that was it lead and to three rules. Well, they were lessons at the time. And that was the experience where they became rules. And so I would sit and I would say, Hey, if you're gonna join the company as a leader, here's what we expect of you create a culture, high performers, wanna be a part of bring energy and enthusiasm to work every day.
Eric (17:11):
I won't read all eight of 'em. Maybe we'll get into that later, but I would ask these eight questions and then I'd say, Hey, if you agree to do that as a leader, here's what we agree to do together. Believe that it's okay to have fun at work, except that poor performing employees don't quit voluntarily and believe that are and they don't change. So we're gonna have fun. We're not gonna let poor performers work care. We're not gonna let bad leaders lead people. Let's see what that company looks like. And it was the greatest corporate culture I've ever worked on. Uh, within nine months of opening a brand new corporate headquarters, we were RO uh, voted one of the top five places to work in that city. And we hadn't even been there for a year. And in our first 12 months we had 0% voluntary turnover.
Eric (17:57):
Now we made some bad hiring decisions. We had to get rid of some people. We didn't have zero turnover in total, but people who joined and then left and said, this, isn't what I thought it was gonna be 0%. And those are who are the things I'm probably most proud of. So what we're trying to do now is take that, cuz we saw that it can work and help companies say, Hey, don't underestimate the value. As you just said, of setting that expectation on the front end, when your leaders know how you expect them to show up, then they can self-select and don't understand that's bringing energy and enthusiasm all about that. Doesn't make any di okay, that's fine. Then this isn't the right place for you to work. No problem. But if they come in every day, I mean, as simple as this sounds, since another shameless plug for the book, but if every single leader really truly believed that their job was to make sure Monday morning doesn't suck, uh, workplace culture would look a lot different in this, uh, in this world. So
Ben (18:51):
Yeah, for sure. And, and on that, you know how to have fun at work. How are some good managers able to do that while still getting things done?
Eric (19:00):
I try to keep things as simple as I can. Right? And so, uh, cuz I don't think it's that complicated. I think the easiest way is to hire high performers and let them do what you hired them to do. Right? And I think it gets, it gets confusing or, or it gets muddy down. When you know, you will never, you will never create a culture that high performers want to be a part of. If you let poor performers show up every day and I have this concept of address the one or lose the nine and my belief it on every team of 10 people, you've got one person who's just not getting the job done. Doesn't mean they need to be fired, but they're just not getting the job done might end up in being fired. But if you don't address that behavior, you're gonna lose the other nine people.
Eric (19:45):
Three of 'em are gonna walk across the street to your competitor. Three of 'em are going to model that behavior, whatever that behavior is and three of 'em are gonna quit. They just never give you their notice. And every company has employees who quit them, but they still show up every day. And so the best way to have fun at work, like I always ask a leader, who's your highest performing person in this department and you know, Billy, okay. What if every single employee was as good as Billy? Well, that's not realistic. Why not? Well, that's not really even possible. Why not? Like, yes it is. There's more talent available right now than we've ever seen before. And the only reason you don't have high performers in every position in your company it's cuz you don't have the courage to address the under performance and that's it.
Eric (20:37):
So I think about, and I share this in the book, like I would like to believe that people who worked for me over the 25 years who were high performers would say something like, you know, I thought Eric was a good boss or I I'd like to work for Eric again or whatever. And I think if you asked people who were not high performers who worked for me, if they thought I was a good boss, they'd say something like, nah, I didn't really care for him that much. And I don't think that's arrogance. I think that's leadership. You have to be okay with both of those. Because if you spend 80% of your time not addressing the underperformer, your high performers will eventually leave you in one way or another. And so the best way to have fun at work to make sure Monday morning doesn't suck is to hire people who know what they're doing, get out of their way, let 'em do what you hired them to do.
Eric (21:27):
But most importantly, don't make them work with people who aren't getting the job done because they log onto zoom or they walk into the conference room. They're like, God, I really like Ben, but I cannot believe that Mary still works here. Like why hasn't like everybody knows Mary needs to needs to go away. She's disrespectful. She always hijacks the meeting she does and get her job done. And day after day after day, it keeps you from having fun. Right? And then you're just sort of like, well, I don't know. I thought this was gonna be a fun place to work, but it's not really that great.
Ben (21:58):
Yeah. I, I think that those people can be very poisonous to a group, even just a department or a company. And like you said, people just start modeling that behavior and that becomes, uh, problematic for those high performers because they're like, why am I doing all this great work when the rest of the team's not, I was expecting you to say with fun of like a pizza party, but what you said is more, more, more insightful.
Eric (22:20):
<laugh> well funny you say that. So, you know, I worked at a tech company that was a really fun place to work. Right. And we used to do a lot of tours and people would say like, how do I, how do I create this? Right? Like this is what I'm going for. And I would always tell people, listen, we, we had cool things, right? We had beer in the break room, we had free pop and we had you bring your dog to work. All these things that made it, just this cool place to work. And in departments that had a great leader, it was a really cool place to work. And in departments that had a bad leader, it was not a great place to work. And it didn't matter that you had free pop and it didn't matter that you had beer in the break room and I didn't care that I could bring my dog anymore.
Eric (22:57):
In fact, I stopped bringing him because I don't even like working here anymore because of the leadership of that function. And so I love to have the conversation of having fun at work is about pizza parties and half Fridays and going to the ball game every Wednesday. It isn't, it is about making sure that your leaders know how to create a culture that high performers want to be a part of. And then you can either give free pizza away every day or not. And if you do great, but the employees aren't gonna stay or go because of the pizza they're gonna stay or go because of who their leader is. I just
Ben (23:31):
Believe that. Yeah. And I think that's a very simple takeaway, but that's giving, getting those high performers in giving them room to, to do what they need to do and getting more, more capacity around them for sure. Makes total, it makes total sense. Um, so you know, what, what should companies be on the lookout for to spot these
Eric (23:48):
Bad measures? Yeah. Well it, it, again, in the book I talk about, Hey, use this tool lead as it's written, I've used it in four different companies that were four different industries that were four different, you know, publicly traded, privately, held whatever, or come up with a set of expectations that are better or, or that you like better for your company. It doesn't matter what they are. It's what are they? Right? And so once you establish, Hey, here's, what's important to us in a leader. And again, mine are very simple. I'll read 'em really quick because they don't take long to go through. Right. And these are yes or no questions. So if you're listening right now, think about an employee or a leader, whoever just came to your mind. Right. Uh, and, and answer kind of yes or no. As I read these, the first one is, you know, do your leaders create a culture, high performers want to be a part of, do your leaders bring energy and enthusiasm to work every day.
Eric (24:41):
Do your leaders support the direction of the company with no hidden agenda us? Do your leaders build relationships at all levels of the organization? Do your leaders, uh, manage the performance of their team? Are your leaders decisive and make a tough call when it needs to be made? Do your leaders consistently deliver results and do your leaders help the company grow by developing people? Now nobody's ever heard those and said, wow, you know, Eric, how'd you come up with that? Like, that's really revolutionary. It's like, no, it's super simple. But I will tell you that whether, whether the CEO or the leader that I'm talking to thinks this person's an by definition or not. When you start asking questions like that because it's and listen, there's some great tools out there. Strengths finder, great tool Myers Briggs been around forever built by PhDs with science behind them.
Eric (25:31):
Mine is just 25 years of watching different people behave in the corporate setting and saying, what are the things that really good leaders do? And because it's sort of about the connection to people instead of who I am from a DNA standpoint, it's a different set of questions. And so I encourage everyone to obviously either reach out and I'd love to help you or get the book or think about what do we expect of our leaders and then ask yourself, do all of our leaders do this right every single day. And if not, then, then you need to address it. Challenges. You know, you have 10 leaders that you assessed four of 'em, aren't doing it. Three of 'em are kind of doing it. Two of 'em are really doing it great. But a year from now are those four still there a month from now? Are those four still there? That's the real value of saying I am going to, I am not going to tolerate bad leaders up anymore. Yeah.
Ben (26:28):
And you have to have those tough conversations and really just do that foundational understanding to, to really get the company to a better spot. For sure.
Eric (26:36):
Yeah. You know, I have a quote in the book, it's a Steve jobs quote and it's, uh, listen, if you wanna make everybody happy, don't become a manager, sell ice cream <laugh> and I'm like, yeah, it's a great quote. Like, and, and, but what I also try to help leaders understand is having difficult conversations, you know, holding people accountable, firing people, doesn't, you don't have to be an to do any of that. Right. But if you're honest and genuine and, and have respectful conversations and have a tool like lead to say, Hey, Ben, you know, for three months now we've been talking about building relationships at all levels of the organization. You know, Tom has tried to get on your calendar 14 times and you've canceled on him, help us understand how you think you're building relationships at all levels of the organization. When you keep canceling with the key people that you need to meet with, then it's not personal, then it's, well, I what's the answer.
Eric (27:29):
Right. And, and, and that doesn't mean you have to have these screaming matches. People always think terminations are gonna be this huge blow up and you know, they're gonna come across a desk at me. And it, it, it's never like that. I shouldn't say never. It's almost never like that. And especially if you've built that relationship as a leader and you've had those consistent conversations and, you know, you're telling them giving feedback both good and bad daily and weekly and monthly. So yeah, I mean, uh, it, it sounds kind of simple and it is, and that's the whole point of the book is, listen, let's not overcomplicate this thing called leadership. It's just not as hard as so many companies make it sometimes. Right. And
Ben (28:08):
Setting that expectation and having that consistent feedback, you know? So then it's not a huge surprise cuz you're like, Hey, we have talked about this. That yeah. Makes total total sense. Now there's an old saying that that always pops up of like people don't quit jobs, they quit managers. So how much, how much truth is there to that say
Eric (28:25):
Honestly, I think there is 99% truth to that. I mean, I think there are some rare situations where somebody actually has a really good relationship with their boss and that they just had an opportunity that their current company couldn't offer them or, or a relocation or something that was like, you know what, Hey, my spouse is moving. You know, unfortunately I gotta leave most of the time. It is about that. And what, what blows me away is, you know, look at any kind of workplace survey over the last 10, 15, 20 years, you know, it used to be pay number one and now pay is somewhere like three, four or five, depending on the survey, right. It's not the reason people are leaving. And there's, there's another saying that I wish I would've come up with, but I didn't, but you know, culture eats strategy for breakfast.
Eric (29:12):
And I think that is so true too. And I think those two are very similar, right? I mean high performers who wants, if I'm a high performer knowing I have all these options, why would I work somewhere where there's no energy or enthusiasm? Why would I work somewhere where the senior leadership team's not engaged? I mean, why would I work somewhere where the senior leadership team walks around looking, you know, like their dog died every day, like what's going on at this company? Like how come nobody's excited to work here. Right. And one of my favorite sayings is a Phish watch from the head, uh, meaning it starts at the top and your senior leadership team has to be the ones who are setting that tone. And every level of leadership has to be the ones that are setting that tone for the organization. Uh, because I think companies have to understand that, you know, this whole conversation about the great resignation.
Eric (30:02):
I love it. I don't think it's a great resignation. I think it's a mass Exodus of poor leadership that I'm just not gonna tolerate that anymore. I have too many options. And if, you know, I told you four times I was taking the afternoon off to go to my daughter's dance recital. You called me six times and texted me four times while I was at the recital. And we had talked about it. Like, I'm just not gonna put up with that anymore. Right. I don't have to. And so, uh, it all sort of comes together, right? Quitting companies, not or bosses, not companies and culture, eating strategy for breakfast and the fish rots from the head. I think they're all kind of the same conversation. And I do, I think we're starting to see it in this great resignation, which again, I have my own, my own take on what that really is. What's really taking place right now. Well, what is,
Ben (30:48):
What is really taking
Eric (30:49):
Place? Well, like I said, I think it's this mass Exodus of listen. I'm just not gonna tolerate bad leadership. Right. And you know, I, for whatever reason maybe felt like I had to, or I didn't have a lot of choices or whatever. And you know, there's, I also love the conversation about, well, you know, these multi-generations in the workplace are what's causing all the problems, right? I mean, we have people who are 22 and 62 working together and that doesn't work. It's like, I've never bought into that because I think people want three things. When they come to work, they want a cool place with cool projects and cool people. And I define that in the book as a cool place as listen, it's a brand or it's a, it's a product, or it might be the office. If we're back in an office that there's something about it.
Eric (31:34):
That makes me proud to say, Hey, I work here. I like wearing my t-shirt on the weekend and people ask me, Hey, do you work there? Makes me proud, cool projects. That's about the work, right? Is the work engaging and rewarding? You know, am I recognized for my contributions? Do I see myself spending several years here? If I want to, and then cool people has to be the company's commitment, not to let be leaders. You know, again, I try to keep things super simple. So I love to tell, ask leaders, Hey tomorrow, just ask one of your employees. Hey, is this a cool place with cool projects and cool people? You don't even have to define it for 'em right. Let them define it for you. But, uh, I think leaders get really good conversation and really good feedback and actionable feedback. If you ask those three simple questions and if the answers are no, no, and no, what an awesome starting point, right? Uh, well now we know what we need to focus on. So let's start working on it. Right. Burn it
Ben (32:27):
All down. Start again now. <laugh> yeah, that's right. That's right now, you know, we talked about high performers. So what, what are apart from culture apart from hiring good people? How, how else can these companies attract high performers? Cuz now it's a really competitive landscape out there for, for jobs and you know, a lot of people, um, available to work. So what are some companies doing to, to track that those top performers? Yeah.
Eric (32:51):
You know, I think, uh, the companies that understand and it's sort of a shift, right? I think 20 years ago, the, the mindset and it was probably the reality was Ben should be so lucky to get to work here. And today the, the good companies are realizing that the real focus is we should be so lucky to get Ben to work here. And those are two different things. So how are you approaching the interview, press whatever, what a high performer's gonna wanna know know is why should I work for your company? Right. I have four interviews today. You tell me, and that goes back to this, you know, imagine if you went to an interview and the interviewer said, Hey, let me tell you what we do here to make sure Monday morning doesn't suck. Right? We have three beliefs. It's okay to have fun at work, poor performing employees on your own.
Eric (33:39):
Are you spell out that this is what we really take very seriously, but I think the really important part, and there's a whole chapter in the book around, does your candidate experience match your employee experience? And what I mean by that is you sold them on a dream and a vision in the interview. They're three days in a weekend, they got to peak behind the curtain. Now does it hold up to what you told them it was gonna be? And that breaks down in a lot of companies. So, you know, you told them, Hey, yeah, this is a great place to work. We do all these cool things. And four days in and their, their, their new boss hasn't even talked to. 'em like walked by 'em six times and their first three days. And didn't even acknowledge that they were there. It's like, well, this isn't a great place.
Eric (34:22):
Like my boss, like I just started. And I don't even know where the bathrooms are. My boss is just walking by me without even checking in. And there's just these simple things that, again, I also believe in this is fairly controversial and I get into some really spirited debates about this with people that, you know, you can't teach somebody to be a good leader. I, I, I think you're either a good leader or you're not that doesn't mean you can't learn and grow as an adult or change or take feedback, but you're either the type of person who, if I have a new employee, I'm gonna make it my priority that their first week, month, quarter is an incredible experience. Or I'm the type of person who's gonna show 'em where their desk is. And in at the end of the week, and you can't teach that, right. You, we are who we are. It kind of goes back to that conversation.
Ben (35:07):
Yeah. And, and having that, that consistent or not just consistent, but just that connection to what you are saying is happening to what's actually happening. Cuz you can be like, here are our values, but as you're in there for a week, nobody's doing that. Nobody's living up to that. So then to just be, be hit in the road. So, you know, with, with the clients that you're working with, how are you all like leveraging automation? Are you doing any automation to help them do, do more with less?
Eric (35:33):
Yeah. You know, our main focus at GKG is, is coming in to make sure they have the right leaders. And a lot comes out of that. Sometimes it's software that they could add or a process they could, uh, improve or, uh, a program that you know, has been successful at other companies. But I have another chapter in the book, you know, start with the leaders and, and our belief at GKG is, listen, we can help you fix anything. Right. I mean, 25 years in corporate America, lots of different experiences. I've seen a lot of things, happy to leverage all that, but only if you're willing to start with the leaders because where it breaks down. I mean, automation's actually a great example. You know, how many companies spent millions of dollars integrating Salesforce and they have 362% turnover in their sales organization and Salesforce doesn't that any value cuz it's a tool that nobody's really using the way it's intended to use.
Eric (36:29):
And so for me, it always breaks down at, you know, I, I had a client to, you know, really wanted me to help them build a new onboarding program. And I said, well happy to, but we have to assess the leaders first because if we spend a month, two months, three months building this awesome onboarding program, but your leadership team isn't gonna support it, embrace it, foster. It it's wasted effort. And I made the mistake in my very first consulting engagement of doing that first and then saying, we'll go back and do the leaders. And exactly what I was worried about was gonna happen happened. And I just said, I'm never gonna do that again. And so now I'm, I'm happy to say, listen, if all you want is the program. I'm not your guy. I know a lot of people who are, let me send you some names, happy to refer somebody. If you wanna start with your leaders, then build the program <affirmative> we can help you have a world class onboarding program. And so that's just sort of our sort of, I guess, niche or our focus is, you know, we start with the leaders because everything else is dependent on that. Yeah. Start
Ben (37:32):
With the people, then get the programs and processes in place cuz then it's just, you know, good money have bad money. For sure. Right. So speaking of you personally, I mean author now a president of consulting company doing a podcast, a great great leaders lead. Yeah. So how, how are you managing all that?
Eric (37:49):
Uh, it's been quite a, quite a ride. It's been quite an awesome journey. And you know, I, I kind of dreamed about taking this leap and doing my own thing for, I say 15 years with, if I'm honest, it's probably the entire 25 years that I was in corporate America and I always had a reason not to. Um, but you know what I, and this is gonna sound a little corny probably, but you know, there's all these sort of inspirational messages out there and stuff you see on, you know, uh, Instagram, Facebook, whatever, do what you love. You'll never have a bad day kind of a concept. And I'll tell you I'm busier than I ever was. And my biggest job I had in corporate America and I'm having more fun than I've ever had. And so there is some real truth to the whole, you know, I used to have a, a framed print in my office that said, do what makes you happy?
Eric (38:35):
And it's such a simple concept, right? If we all just do what makes us happy, the stuff we spend most of our time worrying about isn't, isn't gonna seem so important anymore. And so, uh, I mean, I also have a great team. I've got, uh, some people that are, you know, absolutely a big part of this and uh, I couldn't be doing it them. And so, you know, team effort and having a lot of fun. And you know, I think also when you're really focused on something that, uh, you're passionate about and that you've seen work accepting that not everybody, you know, is gonna be interested in it and that's okay. But I think, you know, the, the time management, I guess if you will, is just coming from a pure place of like my goal, my, my dream is that we are gonna change workplace culture one Monday morning at a time.
Eric (39:23):
And that is not an easy task and there's so many bad leaders out there that need to move on to their next life's adventure. And so, uh, you know, I don't think I'll ever be done with it. Uh, there is no ending point to it. So the challenge it's like, you know what, let's see how much change we can, we can influence. And you know, the companies we've worked with so far that have immediately seen this change because of the leaders that they either acknowledged were the right leaders. And they've really invested in them or the leaders that they've acknowledged have been doing a lot of damage. And they finally had the courage and the stomach to address them instantly within a week, within two weeks, it feels different. The engagement of the team is different and in a very short period of time, the results improve.
Eric (40:09):
So it it's a lot of fun and you know, there's nothing better than, you know, one of my SANEs is there's nothing more rewarding helping somebody, you lead achieve one of their goals. And as a consultant, there's nothing more rewarding than helping a client you're working on improve their performance or achieve their goals. And so it's really, uh, it's really been a very cool experience. Yeah. Awesome. To hear. So what, what's next for you? What's on the horizon. Yeah. Well, it's funny a couple people have said, Hey, uh, when's the second book coming out? And I said, well, it only took me eight years to write my first book. So, uh, I'll get back to you on that. Um, but uh, you know, right now we've got some great clients that we do a lot of executive search work for again. So cool to, you know, make a connection between a great leader.
Eric (40:54):
Who's got this awesome skillset and a company that has an opening, then it comes together. So we're doing a lot of search work. We're doing a lot of consulting projects around lead and, you know, having fun with the book, right. I mean, I do a lot of speaking engagements, so I'd love to come and speak to, uh, to your company. Um, and the book, by the way, you know, somebody on LinkedIn referred to it as a two glass of wine read, and I took that as a real compliment. So it's not a long book. Right. You'll get through it in a couple of hours. Um, I didn't wanna write a 400 page business book cuz I don't think people ever finish those. And uh, it's a fun read and, and uh, use a lot of naughty words and some things that, uh, hopefully will make you laugh, but uh, hopefully you'll learn something. So, you know, I'd love a chance to come in and, and work with any company on, uh, assessing their leaders and, you know, really have a lot of fun when I get a chance to be kind of a keynote at a, at a big event and, and just spend an hour talking about how do you create this culture that, uh, you know, leads to a Monday morning that doesn't suck. And we have a lot of fun in our kind of speaking and arrangements too. Yeah, absolutely.
Ben (41:54):
And we'll be sure to put links up to the book. So any, any managers or leaders listening to this right now, pick up the book, fix your culture, make sure Monday doesn't suck. That's right. Have some fun at work. That's right. And uh, it'll be all all great. So Eric Harkins, thanks so much for being on. Get more done. Pleasure talking with you. I hope you have a good, good rest of your day and uh, and a solid week. Great
Eric (42:13):
Conversation. Yeah, you too. Thanks. Cheers.
Ben (42:16):
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