MarPro - The Marketing Procurement Podcast

Sarah Scudder | Real Sourcing Network

October 06, 2021 Rusty Pepper & Dana Small Episode 10
Sarah Scudder | Real Sourcing Network
MarPro - The Marketing Procurement Podcast
More Info
MarPro - The Marketing Procurement Podcast
Sarah Scudder | Real Sourcing Network
Oct 06, 2021 Episode 10
Rusty Pepper & Dana Small

This week we chat with Sarah Scudder from Real Sourcing Network about print and packaging and how companies can make their packaging more sustainable. 

Show Notes Transcript

This week we chat with Sarah Scudder from Real Sourcing Network about print and packaging and how companies can make their packaging more sustainable. 

Dana:

Hey everybody. This is Dana

Rusty:

small, and this is rusty

Dana:

pepper. Welcome to another edition of Mar

Rusty:

pro the marketing procurement podcast. Awesome. I think so it's almost like a professional podcast almost. So it's going to be back from summer break down. When I start gaining, SMEEs getting back into our routine and schedules and having guests on. So I think we've got a really good one. Yeah,

Sarah:

I'm super excited.

Dana:

She's one of my favorite people that I met actually through LinkedIn, but she's the kind of person who knows everybody. And so if you don't know, you need to know her because she can connect you with about anybody. But her name is Ms. Sarah Scutter from the RSN network, but Sarah I'll let you do a kind of a brief intro. Your background and give people a little bit more information, and then we can start talking about kind of what your solution is, right? Because you're in the print space for a marketing procurement, and maybe we can talk about a few other topics on.

Sarah:

Awesome. Thanks. Dana. Dana is my semi neighbor rusty. Thanks for having me on the show as well. So my career path was a bit unique. I think most of us that wind up in procurement have an interesting story to tell. So I actually come from the fashion world and I was planning to produce fashion. I used to do runway modeling, and that was my vision and goal for myself. When I was in college, I wanted to go work for an agency. And then I was planning to eventually have my own company and produce fashion shows my senior year of college. I was doing my last hurrahs part of my sorority. I'm an AGD. And we put on a big fundraising event every year for diabetes research, all the proceeds for our national philanthropy. Always go to support diabetes. And so I was co-chairing the event and I had a full course load. I was a double major or minor, had all these things going on and we had to procure all this stuff for this fundraising event. So we had print promo. Marketing material media, all these different things. And as a college student, I had never sourced or procured much of anything. So we partnered with a local company to have them buy everything for us and manage it. And after our fundraising event was over, they came to me and said, Hey, Sarah, would you be interested in working for. Then I'm thinking this is nothing to do with fashion no way, but I know every opportunity that comes along, there's a reason. And you need. At least consider it. So I spend some time getting to know the team and I actually decided to take the leap and I joined their team. I took the job offer while I was still in college and started right after graduation. So my first couple years there were really focused on helping building out the company brand and strategy, and we really pivoted more towards a technology focused marketing procurement company. And that was really fun and exciting. I love technology. I love automation, helping people do as much as they can with as few resources as possible. So after we, we really pivoted and focused on the technology piece, I was able to help build the brand and take the company national. And then we were acquired by a company actually based in New York that wanted. Expand and have a west coast presence. I was there a few more years. And then in August of 2018, I was offered an incredible opportunity to join the startup real sourcing network, to run all the growth strategy and marketing. And that's where I am today.

Rusty:

So it sounds like procurement found you.

Sarah:

I guess that I guess you're right. I guess procurement found me and I'm no longer in fashion, but I still think I'll be able to tie fashion into my career here at some point.

Dana:

I think it'd be awesome for people to know about your product. And then especially if they're interested in sustainable, how your product can support them in that phone.

Sarah:

So a big challenge for those of us that are involved in the marketing procurement space can often lie in what I call tail spend or unmanaged categories and print and packaging fall into that category. So we've actually developed a technology driven solution that helps companies automate the procurement of print and package. We offer a couple different services. One is an outsourced solution where a company just has us take care of everything for them. They don't want to deal with it. They have a small team, they have limited resources. Oftentimes in marketing procurement, your big spend is going to be MarTech. So the technology and the media. And print and packaging are not nearly as big a lot of times. So it's not really the priority and there's not enough resources to really dedicate to that spend. So for those types of companies, they can outsource the buying and procurement of the printed packaging to us. We'll handle that completely. For organizations that have more resources or that have a pretty significant print and packaging spend, they can actually buy our software and do it themselves so they can set up their suppliers. They can automate competitive bidding, track all the data and analyze. Have a storefront where end users can come in and order what they need. So we've got the self service model for the companies that want to do it themselves. And then we've got an outsource solution for companies who just want to have somebody else handle it for them. And then in regards to sustainability, there's actually a lot that can be done around sustainability and a big initiative that our company has pivoted to this year is sustainable. So I know for me personally, my buying habits have completely changed because of COVID. So I am no longer going to a grocery store every week. I'm not going into retail stores to buy clothing or other things. I am buying. So much online. And I was buying a lot from Amazon and I started seeing how much waste my household was generating every single waste every single week. And I was actually embarrassed when I would go look at our trash and recycling cans every week. Then I started looking at my next. And they had as much or more. And so I think consumers really started to see how much waste they started generating or had been generating. And it became a topic that people started realizing. So I know, I see a lot of people tagging companies and posting pictures of videos and wasteful packaging online. And they're saying, Hey. Ordered this from you. Here's what I got. This is super wasteful company, Amazon. What can you do to fix or pivot? So I think that really. Instigated a shifted our company because all of us were personally experiencing this. So we've actually launched a new solution this year, solely focused on sustainable packaging. And we do a couple of things. We help companies design, packaging that's more sustainable. So you'll take an existing packaging program and make tweaks and changes. So it's more sustainable. And the second piece is helping. Source packaging that's more sustainable. So I'll give you guys a couple examples. There's some really cool new innovations in the packaging space where companies are making packaging out of completely biodegradable materials. So with our sourcing team and our software, we have a global network of packaging suppliers. So we can go out and source really unique, innovative packaging for companies based on. One of those packagings that I've mentioned before on some other shows is a replacement to styrofoam. That's made out of mushrooms. That is a hundred percent biodegradable now to companies that are

Rusty:

packaging

Sarah:

sounds like it, two companies that are actually using this are Ikea and. So both of those companies have consumed a significant amount of styrofoam and styrofoam was one of the most wasteful types of packaging. It ends up in a landfill and takes hundreds of years to biotech. With this new material and Dana I've checked in the Ikea by us here in the bay area and the California it's not rolled out yet. Cause I want to order some products so I can actually test it myself. So fingers crossed this fall. This mushroom packaging will be here in California, so I can actually video and documents the process. But what's supposed to happen is you get your products from Dell or Ikea. You remove them, and then you take this styrofoam replacement and you put it in your garden. And within three weeks, it's supposed to a hundred percent biodegrade. Another example of some packaging, we actually just interviewed and released an article about this is it's pop packaging made from puppet. So a gentleman in Germany, who's a professor with eating popcorn with his family at a movie theater and said, you know what, why don't we use this to make packaging? He went back and spent a couple of years with his R and D team and they actually develop something that can hold up to. And that is sturdy enough, so you could ship different whatever type of material and it will actually hold up. So those are examples of some really cool, unique things that are happening in the sustainable packaging space. And solutions like ours allow companies to identify those ways that they can very cost-effectively make their packaging more sustainable. And one of the ways that we're seeing a huge impact is by helping companies make their packaging. So, if you think about the packaging that you receive, one of the biggest expenses that a marketing procurement team, a marketing team, a procurement team who's ever responsible for that cost savings initiative is the cost of freight freight costs are going up significantly this year. And I think we're going to see it continue next year. If you want to save money. And make your packaging more sustainable. Think about making your packaging lighter. And when you do that, it's a double win. It's good for mother nature. And it's saving your company money because you're reducing your. We're

Rusty:

all seeing the different shifts and what's happening actually with free right now. They're not even guaranteed in certain rates there overnight. Isn't even guaranteed anymore. That there's just so much pressure on the supply chain. Yeah, it's a real, it's difficult out there right now. And we won't even get into containers and import and what's happening there. But one day. Let's say Sarah, I've loved watching and following the war Scutter wall of packaging shamans, you actually, you alluded to it earlier, but I don't think you did enough justice with it. There is some really funny and really also not funny images of a. That some packages are being delivered and how much waste goes into it and it's shameless at time, but I just think it's brilliant. I think it's smart. And it really does put a lot of pressure on those businesses to really reevaluate and think what they can do. But I want to now talk about the, you talked about the mushroom packaging and you've talked about popcorn that have a lot of different sustainability of. Where's the biggest pressure point for these companies to really make a change when it comes to sustainable packaging. Is it on the people that are actually on the actual packaging industry itself? The company is selling the products on the consumers who has the biggest hammer to make a change.

Sarah:

So I think it's all. I think consumers are a huge driver because they're spending money. And if a company is losing business to other brands that are more sustainable, that's going to force change,

Rusty:

but would you consider Amazon assist? Do they do a good job of sustainable packaging being the 800 pound gorilla? So

Sarah:

I would say Amazon is the worst offender that I have personally seen of wasteful packaging. So rusty, you mentioned we launched something this year called the Scutter wall of packaging shame, and we have people from all over the world, submit videos and photos of the most outrageous wasteful packaging that they receive. We're getting submissions, every single. And then we turn these into social media posts and we talk about it and it's not just meant to shame the company. The goal is to drive awareness to the procurement and marketing communities. So we hopefully can make an impact and encourage companies to really assess the spend category and make a difference. And I would say 80% of the submissions that we receive are from Amazon package. So Amazon has done something recently and rusty and Dana. I'm not sure if you've seen this when you've placed an order, but they now offer a sustainable packaging option when you're checking out and you can consolidate your shipping. Correct now, the last order that I placed, I could have a delay in my product for a couple of days and have everything come together on a Wednesday. Great. This is a great idea. In theory, the problem is my shipments all came on Wednesday, but in different books, I was going to ask,

Rusty:

do they all come in one super packaging or do they only come also from different facilities

Sarah:

at Frank? So am so I like the idea that they're offering this to the consumer, because I would say 99% of the things that I personally purchase, I don't need. And I'm fine waiting a couple of days to have a more sustainable solution, but it's not really sustainable. When, on that Wednesday, I still have the FedEx truck. Five different times throughout the day with different shipments. I think their goal is to consolidate as much as they can, but the challenge then comes in when things are shipping from different facilities. So it's still not shipping together. So the idea is good, but I think there's a lot of room for growth. The other challenge that I see with Amazon packaging is the packaging is not right-sized so right. Size packaging means, and I'm using my Hydroflask because it's handy. When Hydroflask ships me this water bottle, you want to make sure it's packaged as closely as possible to fit the size. Bottle. What I see happening with Amazon is a tiny item. Like my cell phone cover coming in a massive box, and I see that happening a lot. What Amazon really needs to do is look at right-sizing their packaging. They need to get their data together and figure it out. How many items are going out in each package per day, the size, then they need to order packaging. That's going to allow them to best fit their average order sizes that are going out. Now, keep in mind. Amazon is shipping out millions and millions of packages a day and they're focused on speed, but they can definitely make some improvements by looking at their daily. And getting packaging, that's going to more closely fit the items that are actually shipping out,

Rusty:

but can the industry provide anything that would make it easier to do more custom form packaging dynamically, where you can put that hydro flask that you just showed, or they can actually create dynamically on demand packaging that just forms to it and then slap a label on it and it's gone. And all of a sudden, now you have a reduced.

Sarah:

So the answer is yes there. And I'll give an example of something that I just recently posted about that I think is really cool along those lines. So I think, yes, there are packaging companies that are designing things that are more flexible and fitable based on the need of the company, but it's a broader challenge in regards to systems and processes and companies need to assess and look at. What is their warehouse practice? What technologies are they using? If all you care about is getting out your product as quickly as possible, and you have a machine that's pulling the box and automates the filler that goes inside. That's not going to work because it's not taking into account all the different things. So there's systems and processes that need to be evaluated and looked at. And then we need to have access to different types of packaging material. There's a company based out of the Netherlands called roller packaging, and they've actually developed packaging that fits to the apparel that you're shipping out. So it comes in a long, long flight. Line, and then you fold it, you put the purse or the shoes or the t-shirt it's really focused on apparel and accessories, and then you roll it. So it actually rolls to fit the type of the product. So that's along the lines, rusty of what you're talking about as more on demand. The other thing that you mentioned was slapping a label on the packaging. One of the things that I hope we see and vented in the next couple years is a machine that prints directly on the packaging instead of meeting. You can have sustainable packaging, but if you put a label on it, that's not sustainable, then your packaging is no longer biodegradable or it can't be recycled unless you remove the label from the box.

Rusty:

What about sustainable and sustainable?

Sarah:

So there are sustainable inks and there are some sustainable labels that are being used, but it's not widespread yet, which then brings up another point, which is something we really work with our clients to recommend is printing clear disposal instructions on your packaging. I am in the packaging industry, 50% of the packaging I receive. I don't know how to describe it. Imagine the challenge with the average consumer. So Dana, let's say you get a shipment today. And it's not clearly labeled. You may not know whether it's biodegradable, whether you should put it in recycling or if you should put it in the trash. So what happens? It winds up in the trash and winds up in a landfill. Maybe it was sustainable packaging, but if you don't dispose of it correctly, what goes.

Rusty:

I want to go back to the whole labeling aspect of it, because when you start talking about changing and printing on the packaging and stuff, that's a whole lot different than just making a shift to sustainable inks and stuff. It's a lot easier to fix the supply chain that already exists in the infrastructure within those warehouses and those systems to be able to do that versus trying to uproot, and also now get new equipment. And that would, I would see that the shift to full sustainable Ang some product or our labels. There's a lot more. More

Sarah:

likely to happen. I predict that printing directly on packaging. We'll start with the food and. Really, if you look at a lot of the food packaging that you have in your fridge, there's so much involved in producing labels for the, all the different types of food that are out there. And one of the biggest challenges that people have is figuring out how to dispose of food package. If you have food leftover on your packaging, can you recycle it or not? That's right. But that's a question. If you have a pizza box with cheese on it, can that be. And then when you throw the extra factor of my hummus container, that has a massive label on it. Do I have to remove that label and clean that package in order to be able to recycle it?

Rusty:

Yeah, but even if that was clearly labeled and there's people out there trying to make instructions from human nature is lazy. And so the technologies around, how do you manage recycling at the municipality level is really the key is as the education needs to start there because we're not gonna get. Human behavior by just making things clearly printed out, people will either you either recycle or you don't. I've got a neighbor who doesn't recycle. It drives us nuts, but we're huge recyclers. So if we're not going to change that we've argued with them about it. We've thought we've explained it to them. I have this. Just not interested. Fine, but you've got to be able to start creating the awareness of how do you recycle. They always can't just be in the product or the packaging. It's also got to be the consumer education.

Sarah:

Yeah. And so one of the challenges, there's no universal recycling standards. So every county, every city it's different. And one of the things that I always teach people, if you look at your plastic bags, there's a triangle, but like this often on the back there's numbers, one through seven in the center of that triangle, a number one and two is the most often recyclable type of plastic. So if there's a one or two in that. Triangle it's most likely that your recycling center, no matter where you are in the U S is going to be able to recycle it. Anything other than a one or two. So a three through seven, it's a crap shoot. And it just depends on the recycling facility. So again, that's an education piece, teaching people to call their local recycling center, get a sense of what numbers they do and don't recycle it. So if you have a plastic bag that has a number four, that's going to go in the trash, for instance.

Rusty:

Yeah. If it's plastic at my house, it's pulling in the recycling. And when I look at it, let them figure it out. My kids are lazy. They're not gonna figure that out. They're gonna be like, it's going into recycling,

Dana:

but I have to agree with rusty. I see a lot of lazy people. Yeah, no, it's just kind of fact of life. We're all, sometimes whatever's the easiest. So I think all these things are great, but to me, it's you almost got to make it, what is it? Foolproof where, you know, no matter what. It can go, right. Everything's completely stainable you just know, throw it in the recycling bin. That's all you need to know. I feel like if it doesn't go in that direction, it does become too hard for a normal person. Who's I don't like I care, but I don't know if I care that much.

Sarah:

Oh, so a great example of that. Dana is on the bottom of the box. Put this entire box or put this package in recycling, right? That's a simple, clear messaging that maybe somebody who wouldn't normally recycle that sees that and just puts it in the.

Rusty:

Is there any developments coming up when it comes to corrugated more sustainable products that could replace.

Sarah:

So I host a monthly LinkedIn live show called packaging experts tell all, and each month we have a different topic. I bring in packaging experts from all over the world. And one of the shows we did this year was on flexible. Flexible packaging is a huge movement and we're seeing a lot of companies pivot towards that. What flexible packaging means is it's instead of using so much corrugated or glass or aluminum, depending on the type of product. You're using something like a bag that molds and shifts based on the shape and size of the product. So I think we're going to see flexible packaging become more and more of a movement. And we're going to see more brands use that. Now there are different types of materials, so some of them are biodegradable. Some of them are recyclable. Again, still the sustainability challenge with some of the flexible packaging. An example also is the cannabis ended. I hosted a show a couple months ago on packaging for cannabis because it's a huge market and flexible packaging is the most commonly types of use types of use packaging for cannabis. And one of the challenges is with the rules and regulations with cannabis packaging is you have to have a zipper depending on the type of item to make a childproof. There are currently no. Hundred percent recyclables zippers. So the packaging is recyclable, but then you have the zipper challenge, which is on the packaging, which maybe isn't. So there's no perfect solution out there, but I think we're going to start seeing more flexible packaging. But I would say as I, something I mentioned earlier right now, the thing that companies can do immediately to be more sustainable is make their packaging. It's an easy way to make a significant impact and save money.

Rusty:

So big, too flexible because once you have, when you have a rigid box, your, what, you have a lot of air and space in there that makes it, that just takes up additional room that you don't need. And so the more you can actually, the great thing about flexible packaging is the fact that it takes a plus.

Sarah:

Right. Which again, reduces the weight, which is going to save you money. And then it, it requires less packaging because it's often what I call shelf ready. It comes in a big container or box. Everything's ready to go. You just pull it and put it on the shelf. So there's not a lot of extra packaging that's required. And then one of the other things that companies can do immediately. Is look at the filler packaging that you're using. And filler packaging is something you mentioned earlier, rusty, like an air pillow, and that's, what's going inside the box. There's a lot of times you don't actually need to put filler in what you're saying. And that can save you money and it's better for the environment. So if I'm shipping my hydro flask, this is not going to break. This is not what I would consider a breakable item. So I don't need to ship this in a box or packaging that's filled with protect. And so many times I posted a couple of weeks ago, somebody sent me this photo of a plastic gift card in a massive box filled with filler. Okay. A gift card, first of all, should be electronic. That's another story, but it should have shipped in a trackable envelope and it doesn't need to have filler packaging. So if you are using filler packaging, one, do you need to be using it? And then if so, what can you do to make your filler packaging lighter? Because that can significantly increase the waste of your box

Rusty:

on also gift cards to. Plastics into pay for gift cards, or there's a lot more sustainability there and it's a lot easier to recycle. Sometimes people just want a tangible item, get e-gift cards. The problem with that is a lot of times people get them and they don't realize it. They lose it. Whereas having a tangible item that somebody can hold and open. They feel like it's a currency. It was actually a studies on that, where it shows that there's a greater appreciation for those gift cards when they're actually tangible.

Sarah:

And then the other thing that I always like to mention when we're working with companies and helping them reassess and look at their packaging is look at the tape that you're doing. So companies, if they're not using what I call water activated tape, which is also known as paper tape, gum tape, or craft paper tape, which is sustainable and eco. But what it also does is it makes your packaging not so. If you use traditional tape and you have to put five or six stripes on the box that can actually increase the weight of the packaging enough to kick it into a higher category, we're actually increased the cost of your freight and transport. So there's a holistic approach by looking at everything involved with, in your packages. Including the tape that can really help you take out expense and become more sustainable.

Rusty:

I think these are all really good points to date. I know you probably got a couple of questions, but before we start to wrap up this conversation, I want to find out. So these are all wonderful recommendations, suggestions. There's no argument there. How are companies responding and the corporate world, right? It's so when. Putting these positions out there with, and talking to marketing procurement, what are some of the reasons why more companies aren't embracing it and moving into a

Sarah:

quicker? So I would say the number one reason that we've seen is that it's overwhelming and they don't know where to sit. So they already have a packaging program that in their mind is working and they don't want to invest the time or resources to assess something that's already working. Correct. The second reason is people think it's going to cost a ton of money and they, yes. So they say we don't have the budget for this. This is going to be a ton of money. It's not worth. So those are the two biggest objections and reasons why that we see companies are not looking at their packaging. Now on the reverse, the brands that we've seen that have actually pivoted and started looking at this a lot of times it's driven from marketing and they're using it as part of their brand story and messaging to actually increase revenue and obtain a new client customer. I'm so glad

Rusty:

you wiped there. Cause that's where I think the biggest missed opportunity is from a marketing perspective is Patagonia does a wonderful job being very authentic and true, and everybody knows they are. They live it. They put it on their slate and able to tell you where they stand on the environment. And they use that in every single element of their marketing in their campaign. And I think more companies could get behind it and when they do get behind it, it does tell a story. It does resonate, especially with this next generation coming up. That is a huge missed opportunity that would offset any additional costs they may have because they can roll that into.

Sarah:

Yeah. So when you look at it as a revenue generator, which is driven by marketing, then you can actually justify the costs associated with the assessment and putting the new packaging in place. Now, us being in procurement, we know there may be some initial costs. There is potentially a significant long-term savings by some of the things that we've mentioned, a couple of brands that are doing this and have done just, I think some really awesome things. Ben and Jerry's, for instance, if you go look at their website, they have an entire page dedicated to sustainable packaging, and they've made some significant commitments and R and D investment in making their packaging more sustainable. They're public about it. They use it in their marketing. They're using it to actually drive sales and attract a younger clientele and a younger customer Canada. I could just go on and on there's several brands. Another one that I really like in the apparel space is Parana. Their whole mission and focus is creating sustainable packaging or sustainable products. So everything that they make, my dad loves their stuff. I always order it for him for birthdays, but they also have committed to they're making their packaging sustainable and they don't use any plastic in their packaging. And they actually ship everything in bags that are made from a hundred percent recycled. So when you actually get a shipment from them, it's in a bag that closely fits the products inside. They have it clearly noted on the bottom of the bag that it's reusable and how to dispose of it. And it's a big part of their company and their messaging and marketing and on their website. They're talking about it. So if you are working at a company in marketing procurement, and you want to help drive change, Work, try to win over marketing and work with marketing to include sustainable packaging as a revenue generator and part of a way to build the company brand. So

Dana:

that kind of leads me to our last question cause I want to bring it back from, to a marketing sourcing perspective. I'm in sourcing and I'm going to go talk to my marketer and I think sustainability, not only can it save us money, it's just right. Thing to do. It's good for the environment, all of these things. Are there business cases or examples of revenue generating activities or things of that sort that you know of that people could bring? Cause I'm thinking if I go to pitch. To my marketers. I want to have some examples of, Hey, this has been done before in my industry, and this is how you do it, and this is what it could potentially

Sarah:

do. Yeah. So Dana, we've actually started building out a library internally of companies that have. Committed to sustainable packaging. Ben and Jerry's is one that I mentioned, but there are many others. And so we're actually starting to collect examples and use cases. And so we can provide these materials to procurement or marketing teams as they're trying to go in and pitch this internally. So I think having some bigger brands or companies that are like yours in the same industry that have done it successfully. Is a really important part of the internal selling price. Yeah,

Dana:

a hundred percent. Cause I'm just putting on my sourcing hat thinking it may not be feasible in pharmaceuticals, but I'm thinking in other areas and spaces, if it's something people are passionate about and to Rusty's point as the younger generations coming up, this is totally a focus for them. How can we then people who are in the position to influence, how can we influence our marketing counterparts to say it's really is the right thing to do, try it or dip our toe in the water.

Sarah:

See how it goes and a great way to do that is go look at your competitors. And if one of them has already made this pivot and as starting marketing and messaging, go look at what they're doing. See what's working well, what's not working well. And then you can go back and use that as a use case internally. And there's a lot of really cool things on social media. That have started to come about this year in regards to sustainable packaging, people are creating tick-tock channels and videos talking about the wasteful examples, but also some of the really cool unique innovations that are out there. Some of the things that their companies are doing. So I think there are definitely photos, videos, and other things that people can use as well. I know for me, I'm a visual person, hence why we started this packaging wall of shame. Somebody can tell me something's wasteful, but when I see my friend get a hairdryer in a refrigerator size box shipped to her door in London, that has a big impact.

Rusty:

She goes to have some big hair, get a hairdryer that big that's pretty

Sarah:

impressive sample. We posted in tagged that company and said, we'd be happy to, to provide some consulting services to help you assess and look at making your packaging more sustainable. That's a perfect use case example of branding that you don't want getting out there about your current. And maybe that's the cell

Dana:

to the negative consequences and we're just negating those, but we appreciate you coming on the show. We definitely want to make sure that everybody knows where

Sarah:

to contact you the easiest, the best place to reach me as on LinkedIn, to just type in my name, Sarah Scutter growth strategists, I should come up right away. And then we've, I've also created a hashtag that I use on all of our packaging posts. It's called Scutter. So if you're wanting to get really unique, fun, interesting information about packaging daily, you can go ahead and follow that hashtag and we're we, we try to do a really good job of giving all different types of perspectives, featuring cool startups and new innovations in the industry. So those would be the best to follow the hashtag and reach out to me on linked.