Embracing Your 'Dark Side': The Secret to Total Transformation

What if the parts of yourself you've been trying to get rid of actually hold the key to your healing? In this heart-opening conversation, relationship experts Dean and HollyKem Sunseri reveal the transformative power of recognizing, naming, and loving all aspects of yourself – even the parts that feel broken or protective.

After 33 years of marriage and decades helping couples heal, the Senseris share with refreshing transparency how they've moved from being emotional "takers" to "givers" in their relationship. Holly Kim bravely discusses her journey from addiction, felony convictions, and suicidal thoughts to profound self-acceptance, while Dean reveals how men can become "powerfully vulnerable" – simultaneously strong and heart-connected.

Their framework for understanding our different internal "selves" offers listeners a practical way to make sense of conflicting emotions. Rather than being confused by contradictory feelings, we can recognize when our "protective self" (which Holly Kim humorously compares to Beth Dutton from Yellowstone) is trying to shield our wounded parts from further pain.

The conversation takes a particularly powerful turn when addressing forgiveness. The Senseris make a crucial distinction between forgiveness and boundaries, explaining why freeing your heart from resentment doesn't mean maintaining unhealthy relationships. As Dean notes, "Forgiveness has to do with recognizing that I've been offended and hurt by things done to me, and I'm willing to lay that down on the altar so my heart can be restored."

Whether you're struggling in a relationship, dealing with past trauma, or simply seeking more authentic connection, this episode offers profound yet practical wisdom for turning pain into growth. As the Senseris emphasize, your voice matters – and when you don't talk out your emotions, you'll inevitably act them out. Ready to begin your own healing journey?

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Chapters

• 0:52 Introduction to Lift One Self Podcast
• 37:25 Meeting Dean and Holly Kim Senseri
• 47:04 ] The Importance of Having a Voice
• 49:35 ] Final Thoughts and Contact Information
• 3:26:03 Mindful Moment Meditation
• 5:50:06 Understanding Marriage vs. Weddings
• 9:58:07 Communication Styles in Long-term Marriage
• 15:10:07 Defining True Forgiveness

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Welcome to the Lift One Self podcast, where we break mental health stigmas through conversations. I'm your host, nat Nat, and we dive into topics about trauma and how it impacts the nervous system. Yet we don't just leave you there. We share insights and tools of self-care, meditation and growth that help you be curious about your own biology. Your presence matters. Please like and subscribe to our podcast. Help our community grow. Let's get into this. Oh, and please remember to be kind to yourself.

Speaker 1: 0:36

Welcome to the Lift One Self podcast. I'm your host, nat Nat, and today we are going to be pleasantly surprised with this kind of discussion, because I think a lot of people are going to finally be able to see themselves and make sense of things, not have the thought that there's something wrong with them, to rather understand that something happened to them and to better understand their biology and how it's trying to protect them and how you can move past that and be able to thrive and empower yourself. So today I have Dean and Holly Kim Senseri. I believe I said that properly. If I didn't, I apologize. Yet I will give you the floor so that you can introduce yourself to myself in the listeners, so we can better know you.

Speaker 2: 1:24

Well, we're I like Kim and Dean, since we've been working together, been partners, been married for 33 years and really have felt called to to share some of the healing things that we've experienced with so many others, and we've both been very ambitious about it. So, you know, we're called life coaches and counselors, but we're we're actually humans that are on an intensive growth journey and sharing what we learn kind of thing, which is certainly the best training for that. We also wrote a book called A Roadmap to the Soul, which which outlines our approach to helping individuals, and we've done a lot of different things on a lot of different levels.

Speaker 3: 2:09

Yeah, I mean, the main thing that we do is love people and we meet them where they are. We don't bring them where we are. That's not the point. We love them where they are and in that then they start to love themselves where they are and that's a win-win. And then, when they learn the process, you know, then they don't need us anymore. They may choose to stay with us, but that's not the point. The point is to get them where they don't need us.

Speaker 1: 2:39

Yeah, yeah so um, I'm looking forward to, uh, the lived experience and the practicality of what this dialogue is going to be, because, as we were having a conversation before recording, you said that you're very transparent and willing to share. You know the ins and outs of your own life and what you have had to traverse, which sometimes you don't see that with individuals. They keep their personal life, especially with therapists. They're told to separate and not get personal where it's like well, how is there a relatability that a person can see that, oh, you had struggled, just like me. You're not just perfect.

Speaker 1: 3:19

So, before we jump into this conversation, would you join me in a mindful moment so we can ground ourselves and open our hearts? Yes, okay, and for the listeners, as you always hear my safety spiel when I ask us to gently close our eyes, if you're driving, please don't. Yet the other prompts you're able to follow with us. So I'll ask you to get comfortable in your seating and, if it's safe to do so, you're going to gently close your eyes and you're going to begin breathing in and out through your nose and you're going to bring your awareness to watching your breath go in and out through your nose and you're going to allow yourself to be guided into your body. There may be some sensations or feelings coming up, and that's okay. You're safe to feel. You're safe to let go, surrender the need to control, release the need to resist and just be, be with your breath, drop deeper into your body.

Speaker 1: 4:31

There may be some thoughts or to-do lists that have popped up in your mind. That's okay. Gently, bring your awareness back to your breath, creating space between the awareness and the thoughts and dropping deeper into your body and allowing yourself to just be. Again, more thoughts may have popped up. Gently, bring your awareness back to your breath, beginning again, creating even more space between the awareness and thoughts and dropping deeper into your body and allowing yourself to just be. Be with the breath now, at your own time and at your own pace. You're going to gently open your eyes while still staying with your breath. Now, because there's two of you, this will be unique, so you guys can choose who wants to answer first. Yet how I always open this up is how's your heart doing?

Speaker 3: 5:50

my heart is full, full joy today, sure is it's a good thing.

Speaker 2: 6:03

I feel peaceful. Yeah, it was just. I was just saying it was nice. It would be nice to have that recorded so I can listen to that. But yeah, it just brought me to a place of peace.

Speaker 1: 6:16

Yeah, well, I actually have a lot of meditations on my website that are free, so if you ever want to go listen to it, there's different ones. So that is one of my gifts that my voice and frequency just allows that co-regulation of the nervous system and just being able to surrender that analytical mind that brings us all over the place. So there's so many different avenues I want to get into. The first one I want to get into is these guys are married and a lot of people. What I know to be true is a lot of people want a wedding. They really have no idea what a marriage is.

Speaker 3: 6:59

You're right.

Speaker 1: 7:01

And these guys have said three decades, correct, over three decades.

Speaker 3: 7:05

Yeah, 33 years.

Speaker 1: 7:07

So within three decades, you change within yourself while humaning with another individual and seeing them. So can you explain what communication has looked like with both of you to create the connection in your marriage, the rough patches, the good patches and what you've learned?

Speaker 3: 7:32

Sure, let me go. Sure. Well, I'm going to do a duel in the sense of what you had spoke about at first is, you know people want a wedding. I had a wedding before this marriage. It lasted six years and it was a nightmare because I had no idea what it meant. You know, to be married Did worked on myself for six years. That was seven years before I was yeah, I think it was seven years total working on that. I was sober seven years when we got married.

Speaker 3: 8:12

So in that process is you know, what I brought to the table? I understood this time is that I knew what I could give, I wasn't looking to take. I knew what I could give, I wasn't looking to take. And so not to say that I wasn't broken at all, but I had done a lot of love, loving on myself, a lot of. I call anytime you do work on yourself, I call it loving. I was loving on myself. I was learning to recover myself. People don't know what recovery is. I'm in recovery. What are you doing? I'm? You're recovering yourself who you really really are.

Speaker 3: 8:47

So, through that process of recovering who I was when, when we decided to get married, when I finally said yes, because I was terrified. It wasn't, you know, didn't feel worthy of Dean and also, you know it was. I was terrified to, you know, have another failure. There's many failures in my life, lots of trauma, lots of sadness and just, you know, not a, not a what peaceful, loving environment I grew up, I didn't grow up in and and then then didn't create for myself. So in our marriage, you know, the commitment was to love myself and to give and to, you know, always be available and willing. And you know, and of course you know, my relationship with God is very important and Dean's relationship with God was very important. So there was a lot of things in check for who. We were knowing that over the, you know it was going to be the long term right. The D word was not going to be allowed. We were going to do whatever it took to work through whatever needed to be worked through. So you want to go from there, yeah.

Speaker 2: 10:01

Yeah, it's a great question about communication. Communication because I think that, fundamentally, I needed to learn how to communicate with myself before I can really effectively communicate with her, and one of the things I've discovered over the years was that we all experience bumps and bruises in life, experience bumps and bruises in life, but when we stay emotional, when we experience things at any age that have been difficult and we haven't worked through them, part of us stays stuck at that age. So I could be part of me stuck in a financial arena at nine years old, and another arena at 12 years old, another arena at 18 years old, and what keeps a marriage from being successful is basically those stuck, being stuck emotionally at those younger ages. Because, like Holly Kim said, when I'm stuck at a younger age, I'm actually a taker. It's not because I'm a narcissist or not, because I mean it creates that activity, but it's I'm just stuck. I'm stuck at a place where I'm trying to take care of something I haven't been able to take care of it. Now I want you to do that, and because you're not, I'm really mad at you. So so that tends to happen.

Speaker 2: 11:19

So one of the first things is so important, and that was the, the blessing of us that I didn't really realize at the time that we were both on a journey of actively working on some of the places that we had been stuck and work, working through those things, sharing that with each other, becoming a team and helping us move through. And because of that, by the time we met, we were both in process of becoming emotionally healthy. But enough to where we were givers. I was able to give and see her, she was able to give and see me, and it wasn't like I'm trying to take as much from you as possible, you're trying to take as much from me as possible, and it just wasn't working.

Speaker 2: 12:04

Now the other part is how to effectively communicate with each other as we're in process of moving out of that stuckness, in a sense, and that's what we really did well. I mean, that's one of the things that we did well, and I always say that we either help each other work through our wounds or we play them out with each other. One of the two is going to happen and that if we don't have the skills to help each other work through them, then we will play them out at each other, with each other, on each other and repeat with each other, and that's just really sad because it's oftentimes just doing couples work over the years. It's like these are two people that really love each other and that's just really sad because it's oftentimes just doing couples work over the years. It's like these are two people that really love each other that don't have the skills and have beat up each other with their unresolved wounds and that's why they're sitting here and talking about separating and divorce.

Speaker 3: 12:59

Right, and they don't even know it.

Speaker 2: 13:01

And don't even know it. They don't know what to do when they really to pray Right.

Speaker 3: 13:05

they really don't.

Speaker 2: 13:05

Right, and so I think that that's the greatest gift we can give ourselves is the ability to be able to work through, you know, the bumps and bruises in life in a way that I can communicate it, and it can be something that can be turned into life instead of death. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 13:24

Yeah, and I want to highlight when people are hearing, you know, work through and communicate which you said, but some of the listeners may not recognize the healing, the loving on you is the emotions.

Speaker 1: 13:37

And there needs to be safety to reveal those emotions. And, as you said, if there's not safety, those emotions can attack each other and, you know, get projected where it's like where is the safety? Where is the safety to say, you know, I'm feeling afraid, I'm feeling angry, I'm feeling jealous, I'm feeling whatever the feeling is, and it not be dismissed, because when you're humaning with another human, your emotions are coming up and they don't want to defend themselves. Yet if you do that, you're minimizing somebody else's experience. So it really takes. When people hear communication. Yes, it's about sharing. It's also about active listening.

Speaker 1: 14:19

So what were the tools that you guys use to be able to access that active listening when you were reactive with your emotions? Yet you have to listen to your partner and not trample and minimize their experience while not minimizing your own experience of emotions. What did that look like? Because and especially Dean, I want to focus on you too, because a lot of men are not emotionally available and a lot of women will complain about that. Yet society and the ingrained image of what a man is supposed to look like if he doesn't have safety to feel that sensitivity and vulnerability and it not be weaponized against him then it's really difficult in that um relationship with self and relationship with your partner.

Speaker 1: 15:06

So just if you can highlight some of that so other listeners can work through that for themselves.

Speaker 2: 15:11

Well, I love the definition of a mature man is being able to be powerfully vulnerable, so that simultaneously, to stand in your power and to be strong, but also to be vulnerable at the same time and be connected to your heart. So if you're just one powerful, that's machismo. There's nothing really nice about that. If you're just connected to your heart, you don't stand on your power. Then you become a marshmallow, and that's not attractive either. But if you can do both simultaneously, that's really what we seek to do, and as a man, we're not trained in a lot of ways to do that. We're trained to live in our head. We're learning to develop our intellect but not be connected to our heart. So I think that that's a very, very important skill to learn, and I think you know one of the ways that really helped Holly Kemp and I is that having a voice for the different parts of ourselves is very, very important. Yeah, that I can simultaneously have a part of me that's afraid to be smothered, a part of me that wants to be close to you and a part of me that's pushing you away Right, so all that can be going on at the same time. And how do I communicate that, in a way to her that she can hear, right.

Speaker 2: 16:33

And so I remember one time she was working a lot. She had a couple of jobs. I was in school, you know she was working on weekends and contributing a lot, but I was. I was like, well, you know, if this relationship is going to work, you're going to have to create more time for us, you know. And so I remember the weekend she came home and she said honey, I took off all day Saturday, friday afternoon, all day Sunday. We get to spend the entire weekend together.

Speaker 2: 17:02

And a part of me was like afraid to be smothered and was like freaking out and a part of me wanted to lie to him and say I have a golf game on Saturday, you know. And then I was excited that my wife heard me and took this time off. Now here I was asking her to take time off, she takes the time off and a part of me is afraid and wants to lie to her. It's like how does that happen? But if I understand that and really take hold of responsibility that these three things are going on and I can communicate in a way to say listen, honey, I'm really excited you took the whole weekend off and a part of me is a little nervous about being smothered and not having control, and a part of me even wanted to lie to you and say that I had a golf game.

Speaker 2: 17:53

But I'm really excited and if I need some space I'll ask for it. Then I'm actually giving voice to the different sort of energies in the side and she can hear that Right, as opposed to me becoming the fear of becoming the lie and then that creates all kinds of problems. So what what I found was really helpful is is that when you can give voice to the different things that are going on simultaneously, then it makes sense to me, but it's in a way that she can hear and doesn't create tension.

Speaker 3: 18:29

Right, well, and yes, and one of the things about women you know I'm going to get on women for a second is that you know, men cry all the time, but because they don't cry like us it doesn't. It's not external. Women say they don't cry. That's not true. Men cry. You ask a man where he cries, he'll tell you in his heart and all you have to do is when something is sad. If you'll be quiet and look at him, you can see the tears go from his eyeball inward to his heart, where ours get to our eyeballs and come out of our eyeballs Okay, and go down to our and come out of our eyeballs okay, and go down to our you know our chin, so it's like you know they'll fall on our chest. Same thing in just a different way. So you know, when you know couples come and you know I'll say you're crying, I see you crying, I see your pain and you know she's like he's not crying and I'm like, yeah, look at him and you know she's like he's not crying and I'm like, yeah, look at him and you know and show them what that looks like, you know, and so that you know what you were talking about. That that's really, really important.

Speaker 3: 19:38

And then, with the thing that Dean was talking about, you know I'm a recovering drug addict and alcoholic and I've been. You know I was a junkie. I almost went to prison for 10 years. I was a convicted felon. You know I had a lot of unhealthy stuff in my life and so, working on myself when and I'm dyslexic and ADD, I got all kinds of stuff. God loves me. And so you know I go to the therapist, the groups, you know all the things, the 12 steps. And in that process, because my gift is, you know, add and dyslexic, I see in pictures, I thought everybody saw in pictures. I thought something was wrong with me, but over the years I've learned that, you know I see in pictures. So in that when they would speak to me, I was trying to make sense of what they were saying, because I didn't understand their language really, you know, because I didn't go to school for that.

Speaker 3: 20:31

So what I was seeing, trying to make sense of it. Because you know I made a decision to live, you know, to not sedate myself. I didn't like Earth, I didn't like people, I didn't want to be here. So I've been suicidal since I was a little kid. So it's like, ok, I'm going to do this thing, I got to figure this out.

Speaker 3: 20:49

So, as I was learning, you know, what I could see was that a part of me was just very wounded and, you know, lived in terror and at any moment that could show up in my life. And then there was a part of me that was like a Beth Dutton, you know, on Yellowstone. A part of me that was like a Beth Dutton, you know, on Yellowstone, and she was really a Beth Dutton to me more than to you, unless she had to be so, she was not nice, you know, perfection was the game, numbness was the game. And then there was who I really was, which was lost, right, because I had been sedated for so long. So what you know, that was kind of how I categorized everything that I was doing, feeling, you know, uncovering it was either my wounded self, my protective self, or my true self, you know.

Speaker 3: 21:44

And then, from there, when I would start to work with clients, when they would speak, they would say, oh, I'm, you know, get in a relationship and I just get lost. Or if you really knew me, you wouldn't like me. And I'm thinking, I see all of you, I see, you know, like, I see your wounded self, I see you protect yourself, I see your true self. So I would just talk like that. And then when Dean was in school, he was like I don't know what you're doing with your clients, but what I'm learning in school ain't what you're doing. It doesn't sound like no one's ever going to get better and all these people that you see are getting better. So as I was teaching him, we just came up with a concrete concept and we've been doing that for over 40 years and I've been doing it for 40 years. We've been doing it together for like what 30 something years, 30, well, 33 years, as I was teaching him. And then we, you know, wrote a book and did programs and all that. But it's really what we use with people.

Speaker 3: 22:42

So once I understand, I can categorize my thoughts, feelings and beliefs and actions and I can figure out if I'm really like a Beth Dutton in my mind, then that means it's triggered some wound in me because I'm not her Right. I'm loving and kind, I may be direct yeah, I'm very direct, I'm bold but I'm no Beth Dutton Right. So but if I hear that in my head, then I know there's something that just got triggered that needs more love. So if there was something in my life that deserved a thousand pounds of love but at this point in my life it's only gotten 500, I still going to get triggered in my life. So I have 500 more pounds to love myself in that arena. I may not accomplish it before I leave earth, but that's the goal and that way, when I understand it that way and we teach it that way, then it's a way to learn to love that part. My true self loves that part and then my true self also loves the Beth Dutton in me.

Speaker 3: 23:47

I mean, if you got a bad teenager, you don't just throw them out of the house, you love them, right. So it's a matter of loving all of me the good, the bad, the ugly, the sad, the mad, the you know joyful and then being able to put that into voices versus me becoming it and sharing that with whomever is safe. And I always tell people it's your privates. If you go to the dentist and he says, take your shirt off, you don't take your shirt off, you leave. So you don't take your shirt off where it's not safe. So it's like in that you work to have your husband safe, your wife safe, your best friend, your group, your therapist, your coach. You find these people and then you learn how to do it, so that way you can do it with yourself, you know, and then communicate it to where it's necessary. Sometimes it's not, sometimes you may be upset with somebody, but it's not worth it. So you, you just deal with it and love yourself through that and you know they don't get privileged to it because they're not safe.

Speaker 1: 24:52

Yeah exactly you said it very beautifully, because that's what I do in my coaching is the integration. People want to get rid of parts of themselves where it's like, okay, there might be a part in your chapter that it's cringy, it's uncomfortable to know that you live, that you may have done things to other people, yet if you get rid of that, you don't have the lessons learned not to repeat that, because that feeling reminds you, oh, we don't want to do those actions. And you're aware oh, that's a wound that there's some emotions that are trying to come up, that there's no safety of letting them come up. You know authentic emotions. The majority of us didn't get to feel that when we were a child. We were told to feel something other than what we were feeling.

Speaker 1: 25:41

So say, for instance, you were crying. Oh, stop crying, I'll give you something to cry about. You're angry, don't be angry. Oh're, you're not. Um, you know you wanted something. Oh, be grateful for what you have. So, all these feelings, you started to identify as something wrong to protect yourself. So now, when they're trying to surface to give you information, that's all they are, is data, it it, you get defensive and that's the intelligence of your nervous system that's protecting you like I call my I. What was the name of the lady you said?

Speaker 3: 26:14

Beth Dutton yeah, she's the girl on a Yellowstone.

Speaker 1: 26:18

That's the badass you don't want to get engaged with that well, and it's like I've learned to integrate and not shame myself. At the beginning there was shame and guilt. That right, you intellectually know something, but it's embodying, it's to create safety again in your body and integrate, not splinter out again.

Speaker 1: 26:45

It's bringing everything as a whole with the W. So I love how you explain that and I'm very similar to you. I see the parts of people and then I got to remember not everybody wants that revealed to them, even though you will see it. It's like you just have, like I, opened up a safe space so people feel safe to be vulnerable. The amount of times that I've heard I've never told anybody this and I don't know why I'm telling you this, but I'm and I'm like because there's safety and so that safety aspect is really important. I want to go back to when you guys were explaining your marriage. You used two words that were very prevalent. You said you were a giver. Now you were no longer a taker. Yet my question is how did you allow yourself to receive?

Speaker 3: 27:36

That's a good question, oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 27:43

Yeah, I think that's a great question. I mean because it's an exercise that I often do with couples.

Speaker 2: 27:47

As I say, are you a better giver or are you a better receiver Right, and usually the person will be a lot stronger in one than the other, and so so then it creates the groundwork in order to have a full exchange that you have to work in in the area of weakness, that you're weaker Right. So I think, in general, we have to grow into becoming givers. So we have to grow into becoming givers, but at the same time.

Speaker 2: 28:15

That could be a weakness is I can give, give, give and I can't receive, and so I think receiving has to do with being able to yeah, it just becomes something that would begin to open up our heart, and it has something to do with vulnerability, right, and being able to give voice to some of the things that we're talking about. I think it's a byproduct of being able to voice. Our vulnerability is the groundwork to becoming a better receiver.

Speaker 3: 28:45

Yeah Well, and I would say too about giving is that you know, you have to know what you can give and what you can't Like. I could never give breakfast. My husband loves breakfast. He doesn't like it as much anymore because it's carnivore, but before forever, for 31 years, 32 years almost he loves breakfast. But I knew when we first got together that that would not be something I could give him. I never did breakfast. I never could do breakfast. It makes me nauseous. I just didn't grow up like that.

Speaker 3: 29:14

So you know, denying food was part of the process to survive. So it's just couldn't be something. So I needed him to know this is not. It's not because I don't love you. I can't give you anything. I can't give myself, and I don't know if I could ever give myself that. And you know I can do it sometimes, but I know I couldn't do it all the time because I would resent you.

Speaker 3: 29:34

So in the giving, it's knowing what I can and can't give, and then can he handle that or not, right, so, and that's just one example, but it was important, you know.

Speaker 3: 29:45

So in that process it's like for the receiving. So in that process it's like for the receiving. For me it was about being worthy of what I was receiving and you know my whole, you know recovery was finding who I really was, but also in my, you know, being worthy of all of the blessings, being worthy of, you know, his purity of love, being worthy of who he was as a man and who he wanted to be as a man. You know his innocence, where, you know I'm the junkie and you know, got this horrible history and it's like really receiving all that love because you know the problem with receiving and being worthy is that one day he might not be here. So if I go there I'm going to know what I'm going to miss and it's going to be really painful. So it's a matter of really taking the risk to open my heart to give, which is easier because then you can close it off, but to open your heart to receive it, knowing that they can take it away at any time.

Speaker 2: 31:02

Yeah, one of the things we do is and we think it's very important is to learn and it sounds like you do the same thing with your survival responses that it's really important to understand. What are your coping or survival responses? And I'll often ask couples and individuals. I say what are three things you do to help you cope when you're stressed out? And so you get an idea. I say what are three things that your significant other complains about, about your behavior? What are some things that you do that you regret later and oftentimes, sometimes, those behaviors can be, can actually be good behaviors. I'm always giving and I never say no and I'm always saying yes.

Speaker 2: 31:48

And sometimes there are other, more selfish behaviors, like I drink or I smoke this or I work and I can't stop working. I think once you can identify your coping behaviors and own that, take responsibility for that, and that's we give it a name. You said bulldog, think bulldog. She said pit bull, pit bull, and we all have our names. But that, by giving it a name, that's the part of us that keeps us from love, that's the part of us that is driven by fear and that keeps us protected.

Speaker 2: 32:27

When I claim and claim that and actually have an awareness, I start to realize how different that is from who I really am. And there's a lot of freedom in the naming, in the claiming and in understanding it, because then I know what the weakness is. I know when I want to isolate and not talk because I'm afraid that's when I'm in my coping behavior. I know when I hear certain things in my head. That's a real important part of this whole giving and taking is taking responsibility for that. And I go a step further and I have couples do that.

Speaker 2: 33:04

I say all right, name and claim that. But I also want you to look in your partner's eyes and say I apologize for and fill in the blank I apologize for the times that I've isolated and not talked and then hurt our relationship. I apologize for the times that I didn't hear you and you were trying to get my attention and I was preoccupied with work and I'm sorry that that hurt you and I'm making a commitment to learn to do it differently. There's something about true repentance that actually starts to restore the fabric of my heart, the hardness of my heart. The two principles of repentance and forgiveness are the two principles that create a soft heart that's available to love. A hard heart's created by never apologize and never forgive, and it has the opposite effect.

Speaker 1: 33:58

So those are the principles I think are so important in order to establish a really good loving relationship yeah, um, I think that is a big thing when somebody is giving an honest apology and being accountable for their actions and not give an excuse. Well, you did this, that's why I did it. Just really stand in, I did this and I see your pain. When you're seen and validated in that way, it does open you up because you no longer feel like you have to be defensive or feel offended that nobody's listening to your truth. That feeling, witnessed and seen, really opens up that heart Before we.

Speaker 1: 34:40

Because I'm mindful of time I just want to touch into, because we've said the word forgiveness a lot and I find a lot of people use this in a way that repeats patterns, in a way that diminishes their truth, their pain, just to feel a sense of belonging or be in the definition of what relationships or what forgiveness does. Yet they, you know, go back into these same environments and situations and wonder well, I'm forgiving, so why do I feel so jaded or passive, aggressive or whatnot? Can you give what you have as a definition of forgiveness and what that looks like to work through that?

Speaker 2: 35:25

Yeah, I first make a distinction between forgiveness and boundaries. You know that those are two separate issues and when you mix those up, then there's a lot of misunderstanding. If I have a business partner that's stealing from me, if I have a business partner that's stealing from me, I need to get that issue resolved in my heart about the and forgive him for that, in order for me to become free. But it doesn't mean I continue to do business with it, like, okay, you're stealing, you're not stopping no more business, right so? But forgiveness has to do, and and it's, it's really a spiritual principle, right? Is that Forgiveness has to do? And it's really a spiritual principle is that forgiveness is recognizing that I've been offended and hurt by things that were done to me and I'm willing to lay that down on the altar and ask it to be removed so that my heart can be restored. And it's something that is very, very important. Because if I don't, then I Let me give you an example.

Speaker 2: 36:26

If I have a friend, joe, he punches me in the face and he goes about his business and he forgets he did that. But the next day I think about Joe punching me in the face one time and the next day I think about it one time and I'm mad at him. And the next 30 days I think about him punching me in the face and how mad I am about it. How many times has he punched me? You know 31 times the original time and I recycled through it over and over and over again. Now is it okay for him to punch me? No, no, and I may never give him my cheek again. But at the same time I have to get that offense out of my heart because it makes it hard.

Speaker 2: 37:07

It's interesting, you know Jesus talked about. He said in the parable so though they have eyes talking about spiritual eyes they do not see. Though they have ears, they do not hear because their heart has grown hardened. That the inability to see and hear spiritually and to connect on that level has everything to do with the condition of my heart. It has nothing to do with my eyes and ears. But what is the thing that helps soften my heart is when I practice this spiritual principle of forgiveness and repentance, and that's what enables me to learn to connect and to love. So, yes, let's validate that we've all been punched by life, by people, by experiences and stuff. That's all real, but I need to work out the issues of my heart in a way that I get rid of the resentment, feel the resentment, acknowledge the resentment be heart. In a way that I get rid of the resentment, feel the resentment, acknowledge the resentment be validated in it, lay it down and be willing to let it go and like I said, that's absolutely necessary and that's different than the boundary issue.

Speaker 3: 38:19

Right and forgiveness is like going through the grief process is what you have is actually what you really have to do, because you've lost something, you know, or you didn't get something and so you need to. You need to forgive for that, for that offense. But how do you do that? The process is the grief process. It's that first I'm in denial that that even happened. I can't even believe it. But then I, you know I wake up to it. Then I'm mad that it happened and then I bargain Well, if I wouldn't, if I wouldn't have been that person's friend or wouldn't have married that person, or if I wouldn't have went over there, whatever it is. And then I start bargaining and then I go back to being angry. Then I go back to I can't believe this happened. Then I get into pain, I'm sad, I'm hurt, hopeless. You know it feels painful. And then I go back to bargaining. Then I go back to anger and then I can't believe this ever happened. And you have to do that as many times you have to and you start to get to acceptance.

Speaker 3: 39:12

Acceptance, like Dean said, doesn't mean that everything is hunky dory. Acceptance means that I'm giving this. I don't want it in my heart anymore. I don't want it to remind me of this anymore. So the more I do the process, the less. Instead of me thinking of it every day, maybe now I only think about Joe once a week, and then I keep doing it. Maybe I only think about Joe once a month and then, wow, I haven't thought about Joe in a year. Oh my goodness. I haven't even thought about Joe in five years. I haven't thought about Joe in a year. Oh my goodness, I haven't even thought about Joe in five years. I don't even know where he is. So all of a sudden, it's completely out of my heart. But it's because I did that process over and over with the intention that I wanted out of my heart.

Speaker 2: 39:54

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 39:56

Does that help?

Speaker 1: 39:57

Of course, of course, and it's for those listeners. I just I want to bring it to another level too, because a lot of people will hear well, those, that's your mother, that's your father, you need to respect them and just forgive them and bring them back. Yet not everybody has had a healthy relationship with their mother or father. But when people try to put this thing that you should. You only have one mother and father for your life and you should forgive them and bring them back in your life. What would you say to those people that have had toxic relationships with their, their parents? That forgiveness, yes, I've, I've taken that thorn out of my heart. Yet what would respect look like for these parents that may not even acknowledge what they've done as parents?

Speaker 2: 40:45

What would you?

Speaker 1: 40:45

say to those individuals.

Speaker 2: 40:47

Yeah, you know, what's interesting is that when you haven't forgiven, then you're not making a free decision about how to handle that relationship. It's because I'm still stuck in the relationship. It could be out of a reaction. I'm still stuck in the relationship, it could be out of a reaction, but it's not really a choice. So sometimes I'm stuck and I can't let it go, or I'm stuck and I can't have a relationship. So I actually see, I would say you need to do the process of forgiveness so you can clear it out enough so that you can make, as an adult person, a clear decision on what the level of relationship needs to look like. And you'll have the freedom to do that.

Speaker 2: 41:27

And in some cases it may be no relationship, in some cases it may be, you know, social contact. That's just. How are you, how's the weather? Some it might be reconciled in a very deep way, but I often find that, like the, the individual that was, uh, was betrayed by their spouse and never worked through the issue of that to a place of forgiveness is often set up to get in a relationship where they're going to be betrayed again.

Speaker 3: 42:00

I know repeat.

Speaker 2: 42:01

And it's not resolved and it gets repeated. So I look at it the other way. There's a huge price to pay not to work on resolving the issue, because then you lose your choice, and the choice might be I repeat, the trauma or I run from life, and not only do I not have a relationship with this person, but I have no relationship with nobody because I'm scared. So in some sense, I think it's really important to realize that it's the process of doing the emotion work that actually gives you the freedom to make a healthy decision about what the relationship needs to look like.

Speaker 3: 42:37

Right, and you know, I mean I grew up in toxic and I have forgiven all four of my parents. I always say I can't get mad at God. He gave me four. He tried and they pretty much missed the boat.

Speaker 3: 42:52

Okay so, and I have forgiven them for all the messy mess, messy mess and, and you know, when I realized that, you know like I wanted my mother to be this mother that I, you know, see other people have, and you know my mother's 100% would be, my three would be 3% that I gave as a mother, but it was her 100. But it wouldn't have mattered who her daughter was, that was her 100. And you know, when I realized I was asking a cripple to walk, I realized I was being cruel. So I was able to let all that go. And the way I work with it now, my mother is still alive and stepmother. Both of my dads are gone by now. But in that is that I, your stepmother's here, yeah, both of my moms, but not my dads. And the way I deal with it now is that I have no expectations, absolutely none, would you agree?

Speaker 3: 44:01

Yeah, it's amazing how you handle it and, uh, if I can't be my true self, if I'm going to talk to them or go there, whatever, I don't go. So you know not to say that, even though I have no expectations, not to say that you know I can't get my feelings hurt because I can't so, but I stay my true self the whole time. And then you know I'll get in the car and you know I can't get my feelings hurt because I can't so, but I stay my true self the whole time. And then you know I'll get in the car and you know I may cry about.

Speaker 3: 44:29

You know I didn't have expectations, but I also didn't expect that. That was you know, and you know of course it will remind me of one of those wounds that still has 500 pounds, that needs love. So I take care of it, I do it, I love myself through it. And then of course, I have Dean, I have my son and different people that I be part of that healing process if that's necessary. So I love them because I love them, and but I also, you know, realize that they're not going to be who I deserved.

Speaker 2: 45:12

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 45:13

And so you know it is what it is.

Speaker 2: 45:16

I think the spirit of your question has to do with. Sometimes people will make an intellectual assent to forgive, but they haven't done the emotional work and it gets really messy.

Speaker 1: 45:26

That's what I was going to add, cause a lot of people are intellectualizing it to avoid feeling and, like I love how you said, there's a grief aspect of it. There's a plethora of different emotions and automatically, when you're angry, it's a protective emotion. It's protecting the feeling of hopelessness, the feeling of sadness, the feeling of vulnerability, and until you recognize, oh, I'm feeling angry, what am I protecting? What's underneath this? And you can start feeling the helplessness and the pain of being feeling hurt and feeling the fear or whatever, all of the different array of emotions.

Speaker 1: 46:05

That's where the clarity, as you said, dean, that you can make a choice of how are you going to show up in this now, not what you've been indoctrinated, what it's supposed to look like, that you take autonomy of choosing how you're showing up for yourself in these spaces and places with people, and not in the definition of roles that the world has given you, of how you need to show up.

Speaker 1: 46:28

So it's I really appreciate you know the relatability, the transparency and using your real life so that people can relate to it a lot more and not be banging their head on the wall of I don't and it's like you have to drop out of your head and drop into your body. That's why I do those mindful moments of come back into your body. It's creating safety in your body so that you can feel these energies and emotions that are trapped in your body, that block the signal of you know, as you said, god, allah, universe, whatever name the higher power that you have that frequency within yourself. It's not on the outside world, it's inside you. Yet if you have all these emotions going on, it's static and you're not able to clearly hear what's going on. And that's why that feeling like I tell people, we're feeling bodies that think so you know the vibrations and the gut instincts and the intuition. It's a real thing. That's there. What is one question that you think I haven't asked that would be beneficial to the listeners.

Speaker 3: 47:39

I guess if I was a listener, you know what I would think that somebody might think about would be you know, do you really have to go that deep? You know, do you really have to, like, put it all out there? And my answer is yes. You don't have to put it out there like we are on the right, you know, on a podcast and let the world hear it. However, you do deserve to have a person in your life that you can go deep with. So you have choices. If I would have never done my work, I obviously wouldn't be here. I'd be dead. But even if I wouldn't have done the work, I would have never had a child. We have a son that we adopted after eight years of marriage and I was terrified because of where I came from. I didn't want to be that, and by doing the work, you know, now we have this awesome son and he's married and you know we just you know one of the joys of our life. So you know you deserve to do the work.

Speaker 2: 48:43

My question would be why is it important to have a voice?

Speaker 3: 48:46

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 48:48

And I would answer that by saying when you don't talk out, you're going to act out, and that we all, we all have the privilege, and that your voice is very, very important. And give a voice to all of you. Right, I mean you're the privilege and that your voice is very, very important. And giving voice to all of you, Right, I mean you seem to be an expert in helping people get more connected to their heart and their emotions. But to give voice to their thoughts, to give voice to their emotions, to give voice to the dreams, to give voice to the hurts, the whole gamut. And it's in talking that out and processing it that actually brings freedom, integration, connection and ability to love.

Speaker 3: 49:33

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 49:34

Thank you for that. Thank you, okay. So I know the listeners are like, okay, now where can I find this couple? Because they probably have a million questions and possibly want to work with you. So you mentioned a book, you mentioned your services, so if you can, let them know where they can find you, yeah, well, thank you for letting us do that.

Speaker 2: 49:57

Best way is our website. I have a voicecom and there you. There's a link to our website, ihaveavoicecom, and there's a link to our book, which is on Amazon A Roadmap to the Soul. We also have a link to our YouTube channel, which has hundreds of free videos, and then we also have an intensive online program called Transform you, which is a four-month program which is a practical application of our book for individuals and couples, and all that can be found at our website, ihaveavoicecom.

Speaker 1: 50:28

Thank you so much. I want to thank you for giving me the most precious gift you have in this lifetime, which is your time, and I want to thank you for sharing that time with myself and the listeners, and the valuable insights and experiences that you've done alchemy in your life. You've taken the impurities and you've turned it into gold, yet you haven't kept it to yourself. You're sharing it with others. So I really want to thank you for connecting with me and being here with the listeners. I truly appreciate your presence.

Speaker 3: 51:03

Thank you. I love your show. It's awesome. Thank you.

Speaker 1: 51:08

Yeah, please remember to be kind to yourself. Hey, you made it all the way here. I appreciate you and your time. If you found value in this conversation, please share it out. If there was somebody that popped into your mind, take action and share it out with them. It possibly may not be them that will benefit. It's that they know somebody that will benefit from listening to this conversation. So please take action and share out the podcast. You can find us on social media on Facebook, instagram and TikTok under Lift One Self, and if you want to inquire about the work that I do and the services that I provide to people, come over on my website, come into a discovery, call LiftOneSelfcom. Until next time, please remember to be kind and gentle with yourself. You matter.