Don't Make It Weird
Two amateur authors and amateur humans—Daniel and Dina—discuss all things writing and books, and re-tell chaotic life adventures from cults to exes that think they’re horses. We’ve got you covered in this comedic and sarcastic, life-centered podcast. Follow us as we fail to not make it weird.
Don't Make It Weird
The One Where Dina Escapes A Cult Pt. IV (The One Where We Grow Up Gothard)
Can a lack of hugs spark a hilarious debate? Celebrate our third anniversary and the thrilling end of season two of the "Don't Make It Weird" podcast! This episode is packed with laughs as we reminisce about our journey, featuring Daniel's infamous intros, comedic mishaps, and a hilarious mix-up between "quokka" and "quaker." Dina shares her amusing story of Daniel's cringe-worthy attempt to bond with her husband, Tim, over strip club laws.
But it's not all fun and games—brace yourself for a deep dive into serious territory as we explore the "Shiny Happy People" documentary, focusing on the Duggar family and the Institute in Basic Life Principles (IBLP). Trigger warnings are provided as we discuss sensitive topics like religious beliefs and sexual abuse. Dina opens up about her personal experiences growing up in a cult, shedding light on the long-term impacts, moments of epiphany, and the challenges of unlearning deeply ingrained behaviors. We also tackle the harrowing accusations against Josh Duggar and the oppressive teachings of Bill Gothard, touching on disturbing cultural norms and the damaging effects of extreme sexual repression.
From the sinister influence of cult leaders like Gothard to the complex dynamics of courtship and marriage within these environments, we leave no stone unturned. Tune in as we reveal the dark consequences of hyper-repressive settings, the misuse of spiritual gifts, and the unique educational experiences shaped by cult-like upbringings. This episode is a rollercoaster of emotions, blending humor with hard-hitting truths to shed light on the hidden complexities and hypocrisies within certain religious households. Don't miss this eye-opening episode as we celebrate our journey and tackle the tough topics that matter.
Daniel's website: https://dumps4danq.com
Dina's website: https://dinasaurusd.com
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Episode 104, our last episode of season two.
Speaker 2:Season deuce, oh my god, can you believe it? I can't believe that we're still doing this. I mean, my god, what a mistake this was.
Speaker 1:End of April is three years since episode one man Is it really fucking three years.
Speaker 3:Wow, we've grown so much.
Speaker 1:Not really. We've not evolved at all.
Speaker 3:Pretty much the same.
Speaker 1:Pretty much Things have changed. Daniel has a better microphone, but that's about it. The last 20 seconds of this clip is going to be the intro to our two-year anniversary show. I hope so. All right, daniel, kicking it off. Let's go buddy Shit. Oh no, it's the. Let's go buddy Shit. Oh no, it's the Don't.
Speaker 2:Make a Weird Podcast. Yes, no, no, keep it, just roll it. Sean Just fucking roll, it's been so long since we've had something like this.
Speaker 1:God damn it. This is the intro to this episode. Now, this will be the pre-roll and then I'll do the actual music again.
Speaker 3:But God damn it, dina, I've missed this so much.
Speaker 1:I've missed this so much. I went back and watched some of Daniel's intros from the last anniversary special. How many times you got stuck on a rug trying to slide? In or you accidentally bonked yourself in the face, or one of the dogs jumped on you while you were. It's been so long since something like that happened and I'm so thankful my heart is full right now my heart is full, so full all right, dina, do you want to fix your tears before we try?
Speaker 3:for day two, I'll just show up crying, it's fine yeah, you know what?
Speaker 1:it's a very emotional episode.
Speaker 2:Here we go, daniel yeah, let's do this, take two it's the don't make it weird podcast with your hosts daniel and dinasaurus.
Speaker 2:Hi there, welcome to the don't make a weird podcast where you're writing storytelling comedy podcast for the writing community by the writing community. Guys, I'm so excited to get back after it with you all. It's gonna be beautiful. We are very, very professional this episode. We're definitely all very sober and everything that you hear in this episode is gonna be perfectly legitimate. All right, everyone locked up and ready. Sean, I don't like what you're doing right now. I, I this. This really worries me that we haven't even started this episode. You've got smug sean face right now. You know. You know who helped me decipher this, guys? Um, I'm joined, as always, by the quite quintessential, uh, quaker herself, dina soris what's quaker those?
Speaker 2:are the really? Yeah, they're like the really adorable little rodent guys that throw their babies at enemies to flee. Okay, yeah, google them, did you know?
Speaker 1:that nobody would know that you're stupid if you don't talk. I think you mean quokka quokka. Hey, I said quaker I thought you were going for quaker.
Speaker 3:Oh, quaker wanted to like throw a little spin on.
Speaker 1:You were like the quaker, like you know what I mean the the Quaker, quokka, or like the. Loaca like Stevie Wildcard. Yeah, the Loaca.
Speaker 3:Did you know that, Daniel? It's not a headphone issue with Daniel, because when we were visiting in Atlanta this past week, Daniel still didn't hear.
Speaker 2:He didn't hug you first of all.
Speaker 3:Yeah, hold on.
Speaker 2:We had a lot to unpack about Dina's visit out here.
Speaker 3:He did not hear any of my jokes Because he was so fixated with falling in love with Tim. No, tim heard them, oh my God.
Speaker 1:That's why you guys know you're twinsies because you're both in love with Tim, oh cute.
Speaker 2:Tim is really a delight. Can I just say that he's an absolute delight. Yeah, I know he didn't like it when I talked about stripper laws in Missouri. But besides for that I felt really good about.
Speaker 1:Look at her face.
Speaker 2:I feel like outside of that one mishap, things went well.
Speaker 3:I don't know. I already have an intro, Sean, because I need to tell the entire story for the stripper mishap.
Speaker 2:It was the cringiest moment of my life. Listen, I cringed hard too. So, guys, if you're hearing a third voice, that's the only adult in the room. Because let's get into Sean's business to defeat his buns. Did they give me Sean help? Producer Sean, everybody. Producer Sean everybody Producer. Sean, everyone, this is what happens when I don't write the intro. I tried to do this on the spot it didn't work out. So okay, here's what happened.
Speaker 3:Sean Daniel was trying so desperately Okay hold on Whoa, whoa, whoa, no it was fucking obvious.
Speaker 1:Let her talk.
Speaker 3:Hey, don't do a misogyny.
Speaker 2:I'm sorry, are you quiverful or not? Because you should be obeying us. You should be obeying us.
Speaker 3:I'm very anti-quiverful, oh God. Anyway, daniel was trying so hard to get Tim to fall in love with him and he was talking up sports and enduring fish talk and guns and all this. And sports and endearing fish talk and guns, and all this. And then Daniel decides that the right move to say to my husband, who is a Christian who does not do things, that porn is a sin. And has never been to a strip club and deleted Facebook because he was getting inappropriate ads. Like the man is above par Okay.
Speaker 2:First of all, if he's getting inappropriate ads, those ads are targeted, based on his search results and search history.
Speaker 3:They're also based upon demographic.
Speaker 1:Continue. You know what it was, midas, yeah, okay.
Speaker 3:So Daniel decided that the thing to talk about was his experience in a strip club and how the laws are really stupid that you literally said, like when I was at a strip club okay, you can't get drunk there if they're naked, or you can't serve alcohol if a stripper's naked and the whole car went silent yeah, no, it was, it was it was dead silent like, like.
Speaker 2:Have you ever, like, had that moment where, as soon as the words leave your mouth, you go? I've made a terrible mistake, because that was that moment the whole car just because, okay.
Speaker 2:So what led to this is that we were having a talk about like weird hypocritical laws that don't make actual sense, and so the first one that popped into my head is like listen, if we're talking about, like, if you're going to a strip club, we're already talking about sin den of iniquity, so why are we legislating this? Like, if you're gonna allow strip clubs to exist, you understand what's happening at a strip club. And so I was like so in missouri, because of their laws, if you have, if the strippers are fully naked, you cannot serve alcohol. If the strippers are fully naked, you cannot serve alcohol. But if the strippers at least maintain a piece of clothing, then you can get alcohol.
Speaker 1:So you've got to make a business decision. A very, very small set of underpants, yeah, like to the point where it's like it's like nipple taps yeah.
Speaker 2:And and and. So in my head I'm like that. That's a crazy law that doesn't make sense, and that's where I was coming from. Tim had immediately stiffened up, he couldn't relate, he couldn't relate so uncomfortable and I was trying so hard to backpedal out of that, I immediately was like yeah, there's also laws in virginia about not being able to walk elephants down the main street, which is a real law. Um it, it, it it was bad.
Speaker 1:So you guys know daniel's so awkward at clubs. He spent like a full lap dance at his bachelor party telling the stripper about why she should vote for Bernie Sanders.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this was before the 2016 primaries, so like he still had a shot you know, yeah, this was back before, like yeah, this was when Bernie fever was still a thing. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah and uh, bernie fever was still a thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah and uh yeah, he didn't even he didn't pay.
Speaker 2:It took away my money at that point and my friends just said, hey, listen, we're, we're just gonna um control the finances the rest of the night it was a good conversation.
Speaker 1:Dina what you were going to say something.
Speaker 3:Oh, I was going to go back and say also, did you guys know that you can check the search history of everything of the internet based on your Wi-Fi router? I learned that that was fun Of course I do.
Speaker 2:You know, it's actually been a while, Sean. Can I just go ahead?
Speaker 1:and send you my search history. That's never been anything I ever wanted, okay.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 3:Love that for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I just sent it I just got it but no, listen, it was a fun trip, can we also, because I don't want to gloss over what? So I got to experience the basenjis the legendary basenjis for the first time face to face. Dina, do you want to tell them what happened?
Speaker 3:oh, the first thing that might have stood was p in daniel's mom's house.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so there's like was it right where Daniel's sitting.
Speaker 2:So like Miko's outside, with Tim being a good dog and Midas sees, like on the floor, my mom has like this little sculpture like bust and Midas sees it, kind of gets a little upset, kind of growls a little bit, gets really close to it and marks his territory immediately and I was so proud, I was so proud saved us from that, that poor sculpture.
Speaker 2:But okay, now the third, the third thing that we have to get to before we get too much further. Um, we need to talk about hug gate dina there was no hug gate.
Speaker 3:You just didn't hug me the entire trip the yips aren't real, Dina.
Speaker 2:What happened? What was the first thing that happened when I first saw you guys?
Speaker 3:Tim stuck our child out the car window and handed him to you.
Speaker 2:Yes, so was I given the opportunity to hug at that point?
Speaker 3:So like All day.
Speaker 2:Like one hand hugged around Baby other hand hugged. Okay, but Dina also had to pee badly and was giving me the death eyes, so I thought that that was not the right time to go for the hug.
Speaker 3:Because you were very late.
Speaker 2:I was 10 minutes late. 10 minutes 10 minutes.
Speaker 1:How early were you, Dina?
Speaker 3:We were there about 15 minutes early.
Speaker 1:See that's almost late by Dina's standards, Like 15 minutes is almost late.
Speaker 3:And then Daniel gave me the wrong code to get into the house, so I couldn't read.
Speaker 2:No, I just forgot. You hit zero first, I didn't.
Speaker 3:Why did you just blow your mom's passcode like that? It has nothing to do with her passcode. What's the passcode, Daniel?
Speaker 2:No, it's 69, 69, 699, 69.
Speaker 1:Zero.
Speaker 3:It's 1, 2, 3, zero, one two, three, four, five.
Speaker 2:Grandma, now we gotta change it again it's three, four, seven, sixty nine. And then the other time where it would have been appropriate to hug you was on the departure but we had my child freaking out, incredibly cold weather and everyone was tired and exhausted.
Speaker 1:So again it didn't feel like the right weather is the perfect time for a nice, warm hug. Man, you're, you're totally missing all the cues here.
Speaker 2:I feel like I read the cues properly and while I regret hug gate, I feel justified in the lack of hug.
Speaker 1:Incredible.
Speaker 3:It's as quiet as the car right now.
Speaker 1:Fuck you I felt the cringiness of that moment. Just right there I did. I just felt it like deep in my chest.
Speaker 2:Well, you know what's gonna get us out of the cringiness. All right, we had a guest last week. Her name was z desintera, sullivan and Dina. What was your favorite part about the episode, buddy?
Speaker 3:I really liked the friend that she brought with her.
Speaker 2:The boner, huge boner. She had a massive boner that entire show.
Speaker 1:Massive boner the entire time.
Speaker 3:Schlong.
Speaker 2:Sean. What about you, buddy? What was your favorite part?
Speaker 1:My favorite part was when we made her play family feud against her will. That was nice. Yeah, she got the taste of her own booker feud as they call it on. Uh on her show. Yeah, um, great podcast with the book podcast. Uh, sean frazier, also a previous guest of the show, shout out.
Speaker 2:Her book was so much fun, man. I loved having her on the episode. She's so quick-witted and there's just something about Aussies, man, you know, anytime you get an Australian on a hangout, yeah it's.
Speaker 3:Aussie. We've never had another Australian Aussie.
Speaker 1:Aussie. It's a soft Z sound. It's not an S sound. For the love of God, learn to pronounce shit. And Dina, do you need another drink? Dina, would you like a drink? I have it right there.
Speaker 3:I just haven't refilled it yet Because I don't know how long this episode is going to be.
Speaker 1:We haven't even scratched the beginning of what we're doing. Which is why I think we have to skip Conspiracy Corner and we have to skip unless you have something that's related. Yeah, we got to go. We got to go quick. Conspiracy corner.
Speaker 3:Oh, I don't have a quick one, I've got a very long one that's on my mind right now, so pop.
Speaker 1:What's that like?
Speaker 3:Brian Garcia. We'll talk about him next week.
Speaker 2:All right, so conspiracy corner will be tabled until next week. Sean, do we have time for a quick Daniel shower? Thought.
Speaker 1:No, absolutely not in this conspiracy corner, that's fair, that's fair.
Speaker 2:All I'm going to talk to you guys about is switching movie and TV titles from anything that has duck to dick. Keep it in mind.
Speaker 1:I immediately forgot that. Let's go on.
Speaker 2:Yep, all right. Well, guys, we are so excited we're going to be getting back into the cult. We're going to be following back into the cult. We're going to be following again. Uh, as we've, we're going to be getting back into the cult as we're going to be following along with shiny happy people. Uh, it's a really great documentary about the duggars. Um, for those guys that don't know, shiny happy people, duggar family secrets is an american limited television documentary series about the duggar family and its relationship with the institute in basic life principles, iblp. The series premiered on prime video june 2nd 2023.
Speaker 2:Just like stop so dina could pee her drink out real quick I just I liked the ambience, like it really felt like it was a nice little dribble sound and you ruined it with your voice.
Speaker 2:Go on I ruined a lot of things with my voice, um, but no, we're, we're really excited. We've talked about this once before and for those of you guys that don't know, you know we're going to dig into a little bit of what Dina's history is growing up with, kind of this fundamentalist Baptist adjacent type of things. But you know, I really want to give you guys a trigger warning, because this upcoming discussion delves into topics related to religious beliefs, strict traditional gender roles, sexual abuse and practices that some might find restrictive or controversial. Please practice good self-care and proceed with caution if you're sensitive to such subjects or consider skipping the discussion entirely if it might be distressing to you. So, dina, for the folks at home that have lived under a rock and don't know anything about kind of your history growing up in a cult, why don't you give the folks a quick kind of rehash? The kids.
Speaker 3:So I was part of. Why do you have children? I was part of the IFB, which is the Independent Fundamental Baptist Association. Basically association, basically um very restrictive, um very legalistic and their translations of the, their interpretations of the bible um very oppressive of women. I don't believe that a lot of their doctrine um is biblically based. I think they take a lot of things out of context. And, yeah, I was in three different IFB churches. We got out and you should watch episodes one, two and three to see more.
Speaker 1:And that's very true. We're focusing on episode two in this episode no.
Speaker 3:I meant of our show like the cult. Oh, the cult episode Part one, part two, part three, because this is part four it is.
Speaker 2:And so you know, I also like to just make sure that we kind of state for the record that, while everyone has different beliefs and stuff, we're not here to disparage anyone's religious beliefs. We're not out here to, you know, make anyone feel bad for what they believe in or what their faith is. This is just a discussion about some of the abuses that can happen in these extremist environments. Um, and you know we are going to make fun of it and we are going to, you know, just be us. But you know this is the type of episode that we're typically a little bit more serious on and you know it's something that's, uh, has become because we've gotten to secondhand experience dina's you know, life growing up in it and, I guess, dina's trauma dina's trauma, yeah, um, but I mean trauma, trauma, screen capping that, um, but I mean dina, like one of the things.
Speaker 2:I think that is really interesting. Before we like dive into it is like talking about. You know, the trauma is that you know every so often, like when we're all in like group chats or discussions, you'll always say, like you'll have, like I can see these little like minor moments of epiphany that you're like, yeah, I've act this way or react this way, or still have some of these thoughts because of the things I experienced growing up in the cult. I mean, what's that like still, kind of, even though you're out and have perspective looking back in, what's it like still seeing these long-term impacts on you?
Speaker 3:Oh, stuff is for sure like deeply ingrained in me that I have to unlearn constantly and it's, I don't know, like I'm glad that most of these moments happen within the confines of a group chat where I can be totally open and honest with you guys. Um, thank you to Shannon and Ranch as well. Um, I like, because it could be awkward. It is awkward in other group chats that I'm in, like with co-workers that don't get like what just happened and like what I'm realizing or what joke I just made. So like I'm glad that it happens in the environment with you guys so that I can sit there and like I can think through things. But yeah, it can be kind of awkward sometimes, like when I'm talking to people and like I'm like oh my god, blah, blah, like I didn't know that, and they're like well, obviously that's common sense. And then I have to like explain.
Speaker 2:Like I'm like, oh my god, blah, blah, like I didn't know that, and they're like well, obviously that's common sense, and then I have to like explain that I'm not a fucking idiot you're not, in fact, dumb, it's just you relate to a different things because yeah, yeah, um and and so, like I think that's one of the most interesting things is that you're never really fully out, like it's got such hooks in you that it's hard even for people like you and I'm always so impressed by anyone that gets out of these types of cold survivors um, you know, because it takes real strength to not just get out the first time but to stay out and to fight those types of negative.
Speaker 3:oh yeah, I have a friend that we tried to have on the show but she had so many like internet issues and like I haven't seen or heard from her since and like I'm I feel like she went back despite knowing everything that she knows about how it being a cult and like how wrong it is and all this stuff. So like yeah, it's easy to get sucked back into because that's what you're comfortable with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's what you know. Um, so, hey, rule with yeah, that's what you know.
Speaker 1:So, hey, sean, give us a little bit of recap of what happened in Episode 1 and kind of where this foundation started. So last time we talked about this, we watched Episode 1 of Shiny Happy People, which is Meet the Duggars. It basically covered the difference between the Institute of Basic Life Principles and the IFB, the Independent Fundamental Baptists. We touched on an intro to the Duggar family and their show, their beliefs, how they relate to and differ from IFB beliefs and finally we began to talk a little bit about the horrible sexual assault allegations against Joshua, one of the sons of the Duggar family, and guys. They go into it a little bit more in this one and I just had no idea how horrible it was, so buckle in.
Speaker 2:I mean, and that's what's so crazy about watching these shows and these episodes is, I mean, I've got pages of notes here of just little moments, because there's just so much to unpack about what is revealed and just even some of the casual throwaway things that they say in there, and sometimes you just get hit with a surreal feeling. You know, um, and, and it's like, it's hard, especially like you know, we're all parents here and it's hard to look at it through the lens of, like, I'm an adult and I'm a parent now and seeing what happened here, um, so for those of you guys that don't know't know, uh, some of the accusations against josh duggar is that he's accused of molesting five underage girls, some of them being his own sibling, siblings and I guess I would start with you, dina is maybe I'm just a cynic here.
Speaker 3:five seems like a small number I don't believe that it was just five. Personally, Absolutely, I don't believe it at all, especially like.
Speaker 1:There was just a ton of downplaying of the whole thing.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:There's no way. It was just five. It's five that we know of.
Speaker 3:Yeah, five that were willing to come forward or were not coerced to stay in the shadows to stay in the shadows and, like my, my experience within the ifb, within every cult, that I was all three of them. There are so many victims and it's so normal that those victims don't even see themselves as victims. They don't even see what happened. Is wrong, um, if they do their shame and their guilt and their fear of hell and damnation because of it? Um and um, exilation excellent. What is the word I'm looking for being?
Speaker 2:exiled.
Speaker 3:Yeah, just being an exile, okay, um, their fear of being exiled it outcast, that's the word I'm looking for. Their fear of being outcast, um keeps them completely silent like that. The the first church that I was a part of. Um there, like I said in, I think it was the first episode of the cult part series that we've done um, none of those women have taken anything that happened to them to court. Yeah, that pastor is still roaming free. Because these women won't go to court and it's some of them aren't even believers in christ anymore.
Speaker 2:But it's also a fear like that the church will never accept them again like they will be outcast, oh, and they'll threaten you, they'll use every emotional guilt trip and, on top of that, just society.
Speaker 3:God wouldn't want you to do this.
Speaker 2:And not to mention the minute that women come forward, it's immediately she's a slut, she's a harlot. She wanted this, she encouraged it.
Speaker 3:What did she do, yeah?
Speaker 2:What did she do? I don't believe her. She wants something, it, it, it's all the things that happen in a non-religious uh, sexual assault accusation case. But then you throw in the religious elements on top of that and I don't know how anyone comes forward. I mean it, like I said, it takes unbelievable courage and self-sacrifice and I it just.
Speaker 2:It kills me, man, and like one of the things, too that I know we're going to touch on a little bit later in this episode when we talk about some of the roles of women that they discuss in this.
Speaker 2:But one of the ones that really stuck out to me was the whole concept of you're either a prophet or mercy, where, uh, you know, the men almost 99.9% of them were all on the profit side and the women were expected to be the mercy side. So it was the women's job to take on the sin, to take on the burdens, to take on all the unpleasantness, and I think that that helps create that culture of sexual assault, because they say, well, my body is not really my own and it's my job to take the sin so that he can be freed up to do whatever he wants to do, and so I think it kind of speaks back into the, that psychological belief of this is my job, this is what I'm on this planet to do, and if he needs to, you know, do awful fucking things to me, then that's grin and bear it, you know.
Speaker 3:So in the IFV we didn't quite have that. That I was aware of. Um, in the ifv um we had, like, uh, spiritual gifts that we focused on and it wasn't just like profit and mercy, um, and I think that they touched on an episode too. I I watched it this morning, but I don't they did remember yeah, yeah, um.
Speaker 3:So we didn't just we didn't have like categories of profit and mercy that I recall at all. We only had like spiritual gifts and it just so happened that women mostly, um had like the gift of servitude. I think I can't quite remember they all were.
Speaker 1:Was it giver?
Speaker 3:maybe I can't quite remember, um, but it just so happened that, like where it would wind up, where, oh, women, just coincidentally all have the gift of servitude and giving so weird right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's crazy and it just put them into these submissive roles, even women that, like I knew personally, I was like there's not a chance in hell that that is your gift.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like it, if you believe like um, not just ifb believes, like in spiritual gifts, but like christianity in general believes in spiritual gifts. So those spiritual gifts, like if you look at them, you're like what that you can tell very obviously if people do or don't have said spiritual gifts. But they would just kind of make it up and like men would be preachers all the time, like I'm called to, I'm called to be a preacher, I'm called to be a preacher, I'm called to be a pastor, and it was like they had like the gift of speaking or something like that, and I wish I could like quote the exact, I can like picture the verse in my mind right now. But all these men would wind up being called preachers and you're like you're what? No, it was just a matter of this is the role that this indoctrination pushed on them. Just a matter of this is the role that this indoctrination pushed on them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so let's get right into the meat of this episode, because we've barely scratched the surface, and this one is all about bill gothard. Um, as opposed to focusing on just the duggars, well, can I?
Speaker 2:can I have one thing before we get into gothard, because that guy is a fucking psychopath. But one of my biggest issues with josh duggar and we talked about a little bit the last time was that they talk about how he had a stern talking to, like that. That was the punishment. His family had a stern talking to him. He got, uh, you know, a what was a sheriff's deputy that that saw the child pornography. He himself got fucking arrested for child pornography and like all of these people serving 56 years in prison.
Speaker 1:And all these?
Speaker 2:fucking people enabled this. They brushed it off, they pushed her under the rug because they wanted that, that sweet fucking reality TV money, because they had to be these. The religious doctrine was more important than the individual girls here, and like that was the thing. One of the things that just struck me and just made me so mad was that it's one thing for just his abhorrent behavior, but the amount of people in that community, in that area, in the family, outside the family, in the church, the politicians, the fucking police officers, that all the, the amount of people that knew what was happening and did nothing, it it almost boggles my mind yeah, so that's standard practice within the ifb as well.
Speaker 3:Um, we talked about it possibly on part two. Um, the pastor's son that had sexually violated, sexually allegedly molested this girl. That was the main thing and unfortunately even my dad was a part of it. Where we'll handle this, we will talk to him. That was such a common practice. And in the third cult, um, I know three or four young men that were caught up in like disgusting porn scandals and goat fucking, and everybody's response was always he needs to have a talking to with the pastor, the pastor will counsel him, the pastor will guide him. There was never any actual consequences. It was let's have a heart-to-heart, let's sit down and repent of this and have a revival, and you can go to camp and you can do some volunteer work and that'll teach you a lesson, because God has a hold of your heart. God doesn't have a hold of those men's hearts. If they've already done this, then there's no evidence of christ there.
Speaker 2:So it just yeah, that was common practice and it's absolute hypocrisy, because these are the same people that are spouting family values, moral values, upstanding you know all of this and how great uh god is, and all that stuff, and again, this isn't a knock on religion. These are people that act terribly like fucking scum of the earth, villains, and hide behind godliness and pretend like they have any fucking say in this and and and it just I try not to get too worked up because it's not about me getting they hide behind religion and it's not.
Speaker 3:Actually there's no god in any of their actions but they hide behind the religion because it protects them and because the world outside of said religion has this idea of who these people are. And and yes, the world still thinks like, oh, they're hypocrites and they're shitty, but like they still see them as these godly people that like these do gooders, they see these do gooders is what it is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and like that's, the most crazy thing about the Duggars is that was part of the image. The appeal to the show is that we're so wholesome. These kids were obedient well behaved is, they were so wholesome these kids were so obedient, well-behaved, like you said, in line, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, they're all just quietly practicing violin. Their kids aren't acting out. Yeah, their kids aren't causing a ruckus in Walmart Like their kids are helping their mother, Like they're hiding behind a facade.
Speaker 2:And the fucked up part is that there are a lot of people in this world they're going to look at and go. Yeah, it's a shame that he was a pedophile and a rapist and all that shit, but I mean they're on to something about the family. So maybe if you take a little bit of the you know, sexual assault away, yeah, so let's go to the core of this Dina Bill Creepmaster, general Gothard.
Speaker 1:Sean, tell us a little bit about him.
Speaker 2:Oh, Bill Gothard who is this piece of shit?
Speaker 1:He founded IBLP in the 60s and developed the seven basic life principles, focusing on authority, responsibility and grace. His teachings have significantly impacted evangelical Christian homeschooling and family practices. And this piece of shit has faced multiple allegations of sexual harassment himself, so he is no longer the leader of the IBLP. He resigned in 2014 as a result of these harassment allegations. But yeah, that's who that piece of shit is.
Speaker 3:If I remember correctly, we also I think I'm wrong on this, so don't quote me we don't know who the current leader of IBLP is. It's Bill Gothard Well people are thinking that it's Jim Bob.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's Jim.
Speaker 1:Bob.
Speaker 3:I, it's not too far ahead of ourselves.
Speaker 2:Come on, come on, remember if I'm correct, but yeah, and like the crazy thing about it, like as I was watching when they were talking about what bill gother did, because like the difference between a lot of these churches and these church movements is that a lot of times there is home base at x, y location and then their teachings sprawl out and everyone kind of builds off of this. Bill Gothard had yeah, he had no home base, he had no starting church, he had no like spot the spiral from. I mean, he might be the fucking original pyramid scheme man. This is all an MLM with a freaking religion tied behind it. And like it was crazy because it's like all right, hey, you're going to come to me. All right, then all of you guys are going to take this pamphlet, you can go to your church, your church, your church and it's spread like wildfire and all and all this dude did was get an insane amount of money and there's a lot of money still in that whole movement.
Speaker 3:Like that's crazy part. They hide behind the concept of tithing, which we can. We can argue that, but it's not biblical. So thank you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm with you, like that. I mean, like I said, I mean it's the impact is is absolutely insane. I mean the creepiest part to me was how in depth the discussion on spanking was.
Speaker 3:Oh my God, wait, wait. You can give your thoughts on this, but I want to show you guys something. You can keep talking, daniel.
Speaker 2:Okay, are you about to? Okay? I don't know if this has anything to do with spanking. You know she's excited because she got up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was going to say this is big time excitement here. And you know Daniel loves spanking because he skipped like eight topics to go to it.
Speaker 2:Straight to spanking.
Speaker 1:Are you ready for something? Yeah, I'm ready.
Speaker 2:Oh my god she has the book. You have the fucking spanking book.
Speaker 1:They specifically called out this book in the episode.
Speaker 3:I have never opened or read this book.
Speaker 1:You just did.
Speaker 3:But I was. Yeah, I realized, as I said, that I was like shit.
Speaker 2:You just opened it as you. Yeah, I was raised.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I realized, as I said that I was like shit. He just opened it as you yeah, I was. I was raised on this.
Speaker 2:It just, I mean, like it was so creepy to watch that clip of whoever that one fucking random ass pastor was just gently spanking his child on stage. That was not his child, that was a pedophile.
Speaker 1:First of all, that was. That was not his child, which makes it even more alarming. Bill Ligon was his name, bill Ligon or Ligon L-I-G-O-N. He wanted to demonstrate how to spank a young boy and bless them at the same time, so he asked for a parent in the crowd to volunteer their young boy so that he could take them over his lap and spank them on stage while he repeatedly said things like you're going to be a great man and a follower of God. And then he let him get up, asked him for a hug, said the hug wasn't good enough and spanked him more.
Speaker 2:Jesus Christ.
Speaker 1:In front of an audience.
Speaker 2:Uncomfortable. I've been in an entire show.
Speaker 1:I wanted to skip it so bad, but I was in research mode.
Speaker 3:There's potty training in this.
Speaker 2:You're reading it. I'm going to beat the shit out of them until they stop peeing themselves. She's about to shift her whole childcare dynamic child care, like dynamic, I mean, and like, and that's the thing that just like was wild to me is that obviously there's always gonna be debates on spanking and stuff. I have my feelings on it, which is um, don't fucking teach your kid that violence is the answer if you're upset. Um, but oh, but that was.
Speaker 1:That's a focus, that's like a main fucking part of the principles of ati.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because they want to break you. They said it multiple times the whole goal is to break you, to break your will, to break your fucking independence and it starts as young as six months old, as someone who has a kid under a year old. I can't fathom that, the concept of they misbehave so you spank them and then you continue spanking them until they stop crying or you're pleased with their reaction. And they said that the spankings could last hours. It just physically made me sick.
Speaker 1:How long do you spank your children, Dina?
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I, since you're now using that book to bring up your children.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I, as somebody with, oh, a nine month old today. Fuck, I forgot to take his picture, my god you still have time to do I? I can't one day is too late I can't imagine spanking until he stops crying. I can't. I can't imagine spanking until he stops crying. I can't imagine blanket training, because oh, blanket, training, Blanket training.
Speaker 3:So what you do is you set the child up on a blanket and you have a toy that they want really bad, like their favorite toy or something and you set it off of the blanket and you tell them that they can't move off of the blanket until you say so. Your six-month-old is going to be reaching for that toy. It's their favorite fucking toy and you spank them every time they try to grab the toy that you're putting in front of them and like, that's not how a six-month-old works.
Speaker 2:It's not and like, listen.
Speaker 1:And they even say like those creepy dudes with the giant beards that were in that episode, that were talking about the spanking, like they were sitting there and they're like he specifically said. There's nothing wrong with you know, introducing a little psychological terror into your punishment for your children.
Speaker 2:I don't know if that voice is even close. Yeah, no, that was. Spot was, spot on.
Speaker 3:No, that was like I'm all about. I am for. I am pro disciplining your children. Yeah, I think that children are not disciplined well enough.
Speaker 2:Most train them, like you train most parents, that's what the one, that's what it was, yeah, train them like and it is true, like I've seen people that do that they're like all right, you show your dog a treat, but you don't give them the treat until you tell them to come to you and get the treat. And it's like do you want a fucking functional human being or do you want a dog? Because if you want a dog, just get a dog. I still am against you beating the shit out of your dog, you asshole.
Speaker 3:But like yeah, like I understand wanting to discipline your child. I understand wanting an obedient child, but I don't understand spanking them until they stop crying doesn't make sense. Spanking them for hours doesn't make sense. Blanket training doesn't make sense. He's six months old. He doesn't know, he does not understand. He can barely fucking see. Yeah, like I don't know.
Speaker 2:Like and I'm a big believer that there's a lot of ways that you can install, because I agree with you that discipline as a concept is a good thing, but there's a lot of ways to instill discipline in a kid that doesn't involve beating the shit out of them, that doesn't involve psychological warfare, that doesn't involve, you know, laying hands, laying hands on, because all you're going to do is perpetuate that cycle of violence.
Speaker 3:You're going to make it worse for their entire life, and maybe they're their kids lives so I know so many people that were beaten with rods because rod and staff is a biblical what is your favorite spanking rod? Yeah, I have a.
Speaker 1:I have a rod um yeah, your preferred rod is spanking. That's for tim, though we already know that.
Speaker 3:Yeah um, yeah, people take rod too literally, in my opinion um I know people that were beaten until they stopped crying. I know people that were beaten until they cried um, I know to clarify you weren.
Speaker 1:You didn't endure this, but you knew people.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, no, I mean, I got spanked with a wooden spoon, never the hands, and my dad stopped spanking me when I was.
Speaker 1:Did you ever have to go find your own switch?
Speaker 3:No, oh my God, but I know people.
Speaker 1:I know people who have had to go find their own switch and then they were told it's not big enough or it's not long enough, go find another one.
Speaker 3:Um, my dad stopped spanking me when I was like very young, like three or four, cause he didn't want me to ever think that it was okay for a man to hit me. He was very, very big on that. He was, he emphasized that a lot. Um, my mom still spanked me for a few years after that and I don't have a problem with how I was raised that way. I think that it was respectful, I think that it was done correctly. I was disciplined, I obeyed and I don't view anything that happened to me as abuse. But I know lots of people within the IFB and obviously ATI and IVLP that, um, it was. It was abuse. Like yeah.
Speaker 2:And and obviously there's nuance to the topic and there's differing conversations, and when we're talking about nuance, we're talking about, like, reasonable individuals that aren't fucking, you know, abusers.
Speaker 3:Like the psycho lady from episode two of shiny happy people. That was like. It took me hours till he stopped crying.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, Her teeth. She was smiling all big the whole time.
Speaker 3:Oh my God, that's a very common practice. That's a common practice.
Speaker 1:He was bringing me shame, so I just spanked him and spanked him. I was like, oh no, yeah, we're talking about a fucking baby. Yeah, a fucking what? A 14 month old or some shit Like it was.
Speaker 3:Oh God, Such common practice to her smile Dude.
Speaker 1:Her big wide eyes God just brings us so much joy and we never, experience any sadness.
Speaker 3:So he brought me shame and that was just a problem and and and.
Speaker 2:By the way, even though dina's doing this as a joke and it's fucking hilarious, her ability to perfect interpretation shift into meek, submissive, housewife voice is equally terrifying too, because, like they said, like with uh jillgar, they're like she was a cheerleader. She could be loud and vocal, but all you hear on the TV is yeah. So it's really nice that the kids are going to go and make some dinner tonight.
Speaker 3:And, like the kids, are going to go make some dinner tonight and we're going to have a great time, we're going to sit around by the fire afterwards and we're going to talk about what god did in our world today they called it uh uh, infantizing themselves fantasizing yeah um, yeah, that was.
Speaker 1:The women were expected to have meek and mild demeanor and voice, just to never be loud or anything other than submissive yeah, honestly, I thought about when Sean comes here for vacation.
Speaker 3:I really wanted him to go to a cult church service.
Speaker 2:Oh, my God, please.
Speaker 3:And I was just going to like I'm not going to do that to him. That would be fucking miserable. I was just going to put on my IFB like demeanor and everything and like I was going to have us report it. Oh my God, I wore jeans on my last day there, I know.
Speaker 2:That's why I said that dina, if we get an opportunity to have all three of us in the same place in florida 100, we're going to a church service. I want to be a part of this.
Speaker 3:Let's talk about it again, though, like the whole, in addition to the voices.
Speaker 1:The clothing like you weren't allowed to wear jeans, you got to wear the long, bulky dresses or skirts. And the big old pilgrim columns.
Speaker 3:I actually just got rid of my last outfit that I had.
Speaker 2:That was ifb why would you do that, dina?
Speaker 1:I, it was therapeutic, some you could have been like zombie michelle duggar for halloween or something that would have been great you know, some people are like hey, baby, show some skin, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 2:Me and Sean are like hey, can you put on that pilgrim hat?
Speaker 3:Get that Peter Pan collar going.
Speaker 1:Get that Peter Pan collar yeah, frame your face perfectly with your hair. Yeah, girl.
Speaker 2:Yeah, baby, don't make eye contact with me. Look at the floor, that's right.
Speaker 1:Jesus, but no, but like Speaking of eye contact, you want to talk about the eye trap, daniel. Yes, I really do.
Speaker 2:I really do. But before I do that, because we were talking about the girls' voices, but you were talking about, like in the wide smiles, when they're doing that stuff, gothard and Duggar and all these guys, they do the male version of it too. They have the same like yeah, God is good as we beat our children. Oh my God, the guy that I thought I was going to marry, he had the perfect Bill Gothard smile.
Speaker 1:Oh God. The pastor smile.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that that's the part that terrifies me more is it's kind of like the um, god, what was the character's name from American psycho Um, like the um, what was the character's name? From uh american psycho um christian christian bale yeah, no, I mean the actor, but like, what was the character's name? It was.
Speaker 2:I keep wanting to say norman bates, but that's the different one that's psycho yeah, I know, um, but anyways, but like it's the same thing, like his whole personality is that he's very outgoing, he smiles a lot. Patrick bateman, there, it is very outgoing, smiles a lot, you know, super friendly and outgoing, but then he's actually a fucking serial killer and like that's what. That's the same vibes I get with gothard and all these guys is it's the same like hollow, like isn't god good, we're all under the guy that I like was absolutely in love with.
Speaker 3:I caught him so many times like accidentally dropping his smile or like showing a little bit of true emotion.
Speaker 1:That's why I was like leave it or not with him. Straight to hell. Straight to hell for that.
Speaker 3:No, and that's the thing. Like I guarantee you, he was absolutely convinced that because he dropped his smile and if somebody saw him, he was done.
Speaker 2:And I think that was one of the really interesting points that I had on the notes here sorry, we're just kind of continuing the flow on this was that they said that they push so hard like self, like like being a critical thinker about yourself, about breaking down every action you do, so that you're not paying attention to the church, you're not paying attention to the system.
Speaker 1:They want you to be a critical thinker only in the mirror, not anywhere else and like on high alert at all times to make sure you're not doing or thinking about doing anything that would be considered sinful or shameful and burn in hell for all of eternity.
Speaker 3:When I was like waking up and like realizing what was going on, I got a bumper sticker. My dad bought me a bumper sticker because him and I were both talking about just like waking up, Believe it or not.
Speaker 1:straight to hell Straight to hell Bumper sticker straight to hell, not having a bumper sticker straight to hell.
Speaker 3:That said question authority at all times. And I remember I showed up with it on Sunday and it was my own truck, like I showed up alone because my dad was sick, so my mom was the one taking care of him, and the pastor pulled me aside after church to talk about it because he wanted to know what I meant, if I meant government authority or if I meant him, and I said yes, and you said yes yes, also he said bumper stickers go on your car, not your ass, get those off.
Speaker 2:But I mean, like, like, that's the type of stuff that just like, for some reason, that one line, just like really got to me. Because then I started thinking I was like that is something that a lot of people deal with, where we're so hyper critical of ourself but then we're not willing to turn that same thought process outside and like how much it affects us and how much that allows cults and places and organizations like that to control you because they keep on preaching this whole.
Speaker 1:Be responsible, be self-aware can't be, can't be wrong.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you just do better. It's Christ ordained.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and and so it's like like that, just, I don't know, look that that. That's the one that like stuck with me, because then I just started thinking about it and just applying it to other areas and I'm like, yeah, we are so big in society, word, and at your own fuck ups, don't worry about the rest of it. And it's like no, you can actually question all this, you know yeah, um conspiracy corner with dina, dina all right now.
Speaker 2:Now let's go to the one that I'm really excited about, because sean touched on it just a minute ago. Hit me with those eye traps yeah, so I, I traps venus my trap right now. Yeah, she is I, I am actually I can see your elbows, dina, and it is really distracting.
Speaker 1:She's got a deep v you guys. She's got a deep v.
Speaker 3:You can see that I have boobs. Her hair is up.
Speaker 1:Her hair is up and not framing her face. It's also not straightened which you?
Speaker 3:you said that you had to straighten your hair, whereas emphasis was put on curling your hair yeah, yeah, that was authored um when I saw that that was kind of weird because ifb and iblp not the same, but very, very, very, very, very similar and like a lot of crossover. I mean, I was the only one that ever had curly hair in any IFB church that we were in and I always felt pushed and compelled by the other girls and other parents to straighten my hair. So it was kind of weird. When the episode of Shiny Happy People was like, yeah, we had to encourage our hair to be curly, I was like, the men always want what they can't have, Right?
Speaker 1:So if they have naturally straight hair and they're like oh, then you need to curl it, Cause that's that's exotic to me.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm pretty sure that it's in the Bible somewhere. I'm pretty sure Samson had curly hair.
Speaker 3:What.
Speaker 1:The verse of the scripture says men inherently have eye problems and the eye problem is they can't help but look at eye traps, and it's up to women to not be that. To not wear crazy makeup or wear their hair up or show any skin or you know just exists really, yeah.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, Be be super um responsible for yourself, except if a woman's wearing clothes and fuck it. I mean we're all guys right? I mean Dina boobs, Am I right?
Speaker 3:She probably winked.
Speaker 1:She probably winked man, and that's, that's like a. You know, she's a sinner.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely a sinner.
Speaker 3:It was kind of confusing as a teenager this is just occurring to me like I just I feel like I'm having a flashback. It was women. Our entire goal was to attract a husband. So we had kind of mastered I babies was a big part of this. We had kind of mastered flirting, but not flirting with your eyes and all you had yeah, no, for real, like you're wearing a burlap sack.
Speaker 2:You're wearing a burlap sack. Your hair is under a pilgrim hat.
Speaker 3:All you got's the eyes and we couldn't talk to a man, so all we had was our eyes and we kind of mastered that, and I feel like the system definitely set us up to fail, because that would be considered an eye trap. We are looking at him, trying to seduce him to become our husband, but we know nothing about men. So we are seducing a man that is not allowed to have any sexual desire, not allowed to look at us sexually, without it being our fault, but that is the only thing that we are bred to do.
Speaker 1:You're supposed to convince a man that you are the one that's going to make his babies for him without saying anything? Without showing anything?
Speaker 2:But then think about it without saying anything, without showing anything, but then think about it. But then think about what the role is, because they always said the dad has to be the one in charge until the very moment of that kiss at the wedding and then the husband's in charge.
Speaker 1:Then there's the handoff, yeah.
Speaker 2:So that dad is basically a pimp. Like think about it in that thing. It's like listen, I know you can't see it, but my daughter she's got some incredible boobs, like, like, what, like.
Speaker 1:I'm not sure I understand that. That's a fucking exaggeration.
Speaker 2:Exactly how it works. But they have to sell and be like, no, no, she's super pretty man, she's, she's gonna do anything you want to do. Like like I can't imagine I already my daughter is about to be six and I can't, you know, get over the fact that someday she's gonna date. I can't imagine having to try to sell another man on dating my daughter. Like literally sell them on this.
Speaker 3:Do you want me to like delve into, like how it works from?
Speaker 1:the daughter perspective, yeah, Okay, a lot of times. We already know you were supposed to get married a couple times, right, yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 3:Livestock was involved, involved and that's a true story. My dad tried and failed. Um yeah, courting was the main emphasis and courting is not the same as dating, because the you, you court, because you are quote-unquote dating to get married, you don't you are getting into the beginning of the relationship, knowing that you were going to marry that person.
Speaker 3:Um, which I sort of adhered to in my relationship with tim. Like tim and I, we were like, yeah, we like each other, let's see if we like each other enough to get married. Like our goal was not to just date and fuck around. Our goal was to find a spouse, which I support. That, yeah. But um, courting is like you don't know anything about this person and you're you're going to marry them. This is just like a couple months to get to know each other and you have chaperones everywhere yeah you're
Speaker 1:not only that, like once a man comes to you and says I'm interested in courting you, like you just have to go with it, whether you're interested in this dude or not, right?
Speaker 3:yeah, yeah right, uh, luckily I never had a man interested in me. Huh, I'm just kidding that sinful curly hair I actually didn't know I had one guy dude you just straight up, failed.
Speaker 3:I failed in every aspect of cult life. Looking back now that I'm out, I failed at every aspect and I am so grateful that I did. And I think that my dad kind of knew the whole time, but like it was a subconscious thing, I think that he set me up to fail and time, but like it was a subconscious thing, I think that he set me up to fail and I'm so grateful for that that's so sweet.
Speaker 1:He knew you were a failure and he just embraced it.
Speaker 3:He was like, yeah, she's going to fight this, that's my little failure.
Speaker 2:I'm so proud of you for being bad at this, sweetheart.
Speaker 3:I think that okay. So, from the daughter perspective, I liked boys, I had crushes on boys. I had friends that had crushes on boys and liked boys and I was always too scared out of my mind to tell my parents that I liked boys. That liked boys told their parents and their parents approached the other parents to see if that son was interested or if they thought that it was a compatible match. That is my experience with my friends. I have other friends that were God I hate saying the term friends because, like I said before, we in reality were not, but anyway, I had other friends that were never interested in boys because it was completely up to their dad.
Speaker 2:Sorry.
Speaker 2:Like going off of that one woman that told her experience at the very end of the episode where she's talking about. You know, she was always told there would be like a spark, that they would feel something, that she, you know, realize this is her soulmate and she goes. I never felt anything. I never. But I also didn't have a choice, like and I think that that's like one of the terrifying things because, like you said, they want to marry you off. They want to marry you off young and your opinion as a woman doesn't actually matter as long as you know parents think they're a good match for you.
Speaker 1:Is this the same woman who was raped three times on her wedding night?
Speaker 3:Yeah, that was brutal.
Speaker 3:Oh, um, wait, let's, let's come back to that part, cause I have a lot to say about that. But um, going back to courting and like it's quote unquote being sold off there, I, my dad, could tell when I was interested in a boy and there was one boy that I confessed that I did like and like. My dad could tell when I was interested in a boy and there was one boy that I confessed that I did like and like. My dad's approach to it was not he like he didn't tell anybody until the boy, he didn't tell his parents, he just like got to know the boy and like kind of took him under his wing. I want my fucking hat back, motherfucker.
Speaker 2:Hey, if you're watching this.
Speaker 3:Give her her fucking hat back respect that hat so, um, my dad just kind of like took him under his wing and like became his like manly mentor and like um, gave him family that I want back now, yeah, mentor. So that's how my dad approached it and at the end of the day, I think my dad realized he was like this is not a manly enough man for my daughter. She's too bold.
Speaker 2:He'd probably like Daniel if he met him.
Speaker 3:I think that he would like you. You'd be like my brother and he would just want to punch you all the time that's fair.
Speaker 2:I would deserve that.
Speaker 3:Love you, okay, so getting raped three times on your wedding night I had heard one or two women talk about being raped by their husbands that had been excommunicated by the cult, while I was still in the cult and my mindset there was that's not possible. He's your husband. A husband cannot rape a wife.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is not possible.
Speaker 3:They were absolutely. Well, it wasn't even that, like it wasn't think about it Cause like I didn't have a concept of sex.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I just knew that, like rape, was sex outside of marriage forced on somebody. But I didn't know what sex was, so I didn't have the book yet. Yeah, right.
Speaker 2:I will pay money to get that book because I will read it Hold on.
Speaker 1:Hold on, though. Dina said that she probably has a copy of it or access to a copy of it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, in one of these episodes I can't find it, but it is on amazon for like 17 bucks all right, send me a link about this, because I will do a whole run of cringy copulations are there's a fucking book they referred to as the ifb kama sutra yeah, the christian kama said it said the wedding night on it and it came with a companion cd so you can listen to it.
Speaker 1:And uh, as per one of the people who were interviewed, it had instructions on how to do one sexual position, which we assume is missionary has to be dog's position um and also detailed instructions on what.
Speaker 2:Daniel, hand jobs Of all things, hand jobs, so Dina.
Speaker 1:I sent that to the wrong chat, don't do it, dina, good Lord, I need to go see where that went. Dina Intended for pleasure, sex technique and sexual fulfillment in christian marriage. So that's not what jim bob gave to joshua I just like that.
Speaker 2:I like that the emphasis is on no other part of sex like, listen, you either need to lie here or just give a board hand job. That is the book.
Speaker 3:It is not the cd and dvd that they listen to. Oh so, it is not the CD and DVD that they listen to oh.
Speaker 1:So that's not the upgraded one, it is the book.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Do they have it on Blu-ray now? I'm just asking for a friend, yeah. Because I would like to know how to get better hand jobs according to the Christian style yeah, I would love to do that on a cringy copulation. Not today, unfortunately. But they don also said and I just want to.
Speaker 2:I just want, miriam listen give me an IBF handjob please.
Speaker 1:IFB, ifb, sorry, it said not only detailed instructions on how to give a handjob, but also encouragement to always be available for your husband, no matter what, was also a caveat of the book so I mean, according to this uh, if tim walked in here, you'd have to say, hey guys, done episode. I have to go late I wasn't gonna go there, but I really. I was curious if tim walked in and said hey, I need a handy, you would just leave what you mean.
Speaker 1:It's like or would you just have him sit off camera and you just be over here and continue with the conversation?
Speaker 3:I think it would be wild. Never mind, I'm not going to go down that rabbit hole.
Speaker 2:It would be what it would be wild. No, Dita, Dita, hold on.
Speaker 3:I was about to divulge way too much about my husband, anyway.
Speaker 2:Yeah, don't do that, we'll do that off air.
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, that is what it meant.
Speaker 2:And yeah, no, that that is what it meant, and actually I have a really weird and uncomfortable story.
Speaker 3:Please tell us. Oh, my god, my friend, that was a sinner like me. We had similarities we were not similarities yeah we're not we got yelled at a lot for being friends. Um, because we were real friends and we weren't like cult friends. She spent the night at the house of the boy that I was like in love with, and he had six or seven siblings. Anyway, they were all like hanging out in a room. It was past bedtime and they shouldn't have been awake, but anyway. Uh, she said that she heard his parents.
Speaker 3:Um, getting real down and dirty like like like whips and chains type of shit. She only knew what it was because she was a dirty rotten sinner, but they just like turned on a fan.
Speaker 2:Hold the fuck on you also said, you have similarities and now I have questions about how many whips and chains you have singularities, singularities similarities, like similarity, yeah, like a similarity um so
Speaker 1:since you guys are both dirty no, I got it.
Speaker 2:Um, since you guys are both dirty, rotten sinners, dina, are you telling the audience at home that you have whips and chains at your house?
Speaker 3:She had nothing to do with the whips and chains. It was his family.
Speaker 1:He's so distracted by the whips and chains he did not hear any of that story, except for any whips and chains.
Speaker 3:I'm gonna shoot a motherfucker. That's, I don't know sorry, continue. I apologize, I'm not doing that anyway, um, yeah, and they just like turned on a fan and like the kids were like trying so hard like not to have a mental breakdown as they listen to their mother get it. So ifb is really dirty and disgusting, but privately, and yes, women always have to be ready and do things that they don't want to do so?
Speaker 2:I mean, like, like going off that, like to the serious side of it, because, like one of the the people that was in the episode commented and they said that you know this, hyper repression leads to hypersexuality and yeah is that something that you would say that you've seen? Um? Obviously I'm not talking about you, but, like as a cultural I didn't, I didn't, he's asking about you I didn't experience it.
Speaker 3:I didn't. I I'm not like a hypersexual person, I'm really not. We know I am more sexual than I was in the cult. But yeah, yeah, I know some really disgusting people that got out. The look on your face is really disgusting Because I've just heard so many disgusting stories from people that have gotten out that like overshare, because like they've still got the goat fucker and like porn addicts, that, and like disgusting porn that should never be seen in the light of day, that have had to have a talking to with the pastor and sean's had people that have gotten out and that, like they're into, like shitting on people and shut the fuck up, daniel, and like it's just really gross and nasty.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's definitely leads to hyper fixation or hyper sexualization and I think that that's kind of one of the more like interesting adverse side effects is that the more you repress these types of things and the more that you say it's a sin I mean, that's just part of the human nature the more you tell us not to do something, the more it creates that fixation and that, that, that fantasy, and it gets fucked up and harder to deal with and to cope with normally, because you've been told it's so wrong and you have no outlet, you can't talk about it, you can't explore it, you can't uh find other people that maybe are like, like minded, and so it creates this just fucked up situation. Man, and like you know hearing how, like you know, she was raped three times on her wedding night and I guarantee it doesn't, it happens all the time in these types of environments and like there's gotta be a lot of depravity. I mean, you know when we're going back to um. You know Josh Duggar, like they talk about, you know he was on Ashley Madison.
Speaker 1:He is, you know, fucking porn stars he is doing all of the listener. Who doesn't know? Ashley Madisoncom was a hookup website for married people. Like people sign up to cheat on their spouses, and he was discovered as a member of that website.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and, and, and. So you know, these people that want to have this godliness, this purity, purity, create a culture that has the reverse effect on it, because you create a bunch of sexual deviants that are so deeply repressed that the only way that they can express themselves is in this violent, horrid manifestations of sexuality there was even, like the mention of um the boys can't change baby girls' diapers. Yeah, because then they would have seen younger sisters' diapers.
Speaker 1:They would want to touch their genitals if they changed their diapers. That's what they said. Yeah, it's fucking horrifying.
Speaker 2:And it's just I always go back to like as a parent.
Speaker 1:It just it hits different because you can picture yourself All because of that repression and that like I don't even under, like it hits.
Speaker 3:different, because you can picture yourself all because of that repression and like I don't even under like I just I don't understand, like from a psychological perspective and I'm sure that there is some sort of theory out there that explains it but I don't understand how the repression not repression, like it's literally keeping them in the dark, like they don't know this stuff, how does it lead to all these rapists and all these pedophiles? Like I don't? I don't know how not knowing about sex does this, but it does, because like you're overcompensating for it probably like yeah, and it's not that they're not going to know about sex, they're just going to get sex Microphone Daniel.
Speaker 2:It's not that they're not going to know about sex, they're just going to get sex Microphone, daniel, they're going to speak into the mic, sorry, all right, so it's not that they're not going to get information about sex. There's no way you can keep people completely ignorant, because even if you put them in a cave and give them no information, they're going to start exploring their own body or someone else's body.
Speaker 1:They're going to hump something like. It's just human nature.
Speaker 2:And then what happens is now they're getting bad information and then they're being told, like the hyper fixation on themselves, that they're worse people. So then they repress it, just like a lot of the worst homophobes, the people that are, you know, the biggest gay bashers and you know all that. So many times they turn out to be gay themselves. Like you become fixated on the thing that you're taught to hate and it just grows malignantly in you, you know yeah, yeah, I just I'm just thinking like from my perspective.
Speaker 3:Like I wasn't taught about sex, I wasn't like that, I didn't know, but I feel like I turned out pretty fucking normal.
Speaker 1:I don't, I don't know I mean, she still never kissed her husband, by the way, yeah, I haven't um, we, we skipped over some pretty critical stuff early on in this discussion that we need to cover before we wrap it up. Um, if you needed another reason to think that uh gothard's a big piece of shit, like his entire um, ati teachings were basically started because he didn't want white kids to have to go to school with black kids when desegregation happened.
Speaker 2:So he started emphasizing the importance of homeschooling and saying that, like, public schools are going to brain, brainwash your children and really it was rooted in racism and he didn't want pure white children to be around black children in schools I mean, and it was, and like everything he did like was, it was around that too, because I remember when they were talking about, you know, obviously, rock music and satanism and all of that, then they're talking about well, yeah, yeah, the rock music started in west african and I'm like, yeah, okay, I mean black people did invent rock and roll.
Speaker 1:Let's not get that twisted, oh no.
Speaker 2:I agree with that, but I'm just saying it's not like you know, fucking the, the originators of blues and rock and blues were like sitting in jungle in West Africa and we'll see, here's my baby. Yeah, that's Since my baby left me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's exactly how it went actually. I read that in my ATI manual In your.
Speaker 3:ATI manual. Are you ready for this?
Speaker 2:Yeah, let's do it.
Speaker 3:Yes, the first black member of a cult and the first black pastor of a cult that I had ever met or seen was in the third cult. This was 2015, 2016.
Speaker 2:It took you until 2015 to see your first black person.
Speaker 3:Wait 2014.
Speaker 1:She was shocked, she was absolutely shocked 2013.
Speaker 3:Closer to 2013,. Yeah, 2014. No, she was shocked. She was absolutely 2013. Close, closer to 2013.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've been dating my wife for two years. For the first time that you saw a black person.
Speaker 3:Here's the thing he was. That wasn't the first black person I met but like first member first cult like and he was studying to be a pastor under our pastor.
Speaker 1:Did he believe in segregation?
Speaker 3:Maybe I don't know, he was treated so poorly and he was such a spectacle within the church that he wound up leaving and going to a different state.
Speaker 1:Good on him. I mean it sucks that he had to do that, but like the hooks weren't so deep in him that he just endured that you know.
Speaker 3:To be fair, I think he's still within the Baptist realm, but I think he's more up north.
Speaker 1:I mean, hopefully he found a church, that's more accepting.
Speaker 2:I mean, listen, dude, there's some fucked up people out there. I mean the one of the dudes that might be running for like governor north carolina has come out and said that he wishes that black people could give white people reparations and thank them for slavery. This is a black um jesus fucking christ.
Speaker 1:Okay, let's not get too political with it.
Speaker 3:At the end of the day, anyway, yeah, that was the first black cult member black pastor I had ever met was 20 I I really think it was 2013 that's crazy man wow and he was treated so poorly and like I don't.
Speaker 3:I don't remember personally having any problems with him or thinking anything differently, but I remember a lot of people making a lot of kids my age making jokes and I probably laughed at them because that's just, that was what we were in and it was really sad and disgusting and gross and but yeah, he was not treated like an equal at all.
Speaker 2:It's so freaking, heartbreaking man so after all this we learned about.
Speaker 1:basically, the episode focused on the teachings of ATI and it talked a little bit about the allegations, but I'm sure it's going to get a lot deeper as we go along. At the end of this episode we were told that TLC canceled the Duggars TV show, which I'm sure Jim Bob was in shambles.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah.
Speaker 1:And they were in full damage control and they were like, how do we salvage this? And even TLC was like, listen, we want to salvage it too, because you guys are fucking cash cows and this thing just rakes in viewership. So they decided they were going to force the two victims of Joshua's sexual assault, his younger sisters, to be on their own show and they kind of touched on that a little bit but didn't really go into it, and that was pretty much the end of the episode on that a little bit but didn't really go into it and that was pretty much the end of the episode.
Speaker 2:No, and I mean we haven't even talked about the fact they had to go on there and basically make an apology on.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah they were on. They went on that interview with jim, bob and michelle and basically defended their brother and was like he's a good man and it's not.
Speaker 2:We didn't even know what happened, yeah and they showed.
Speaker 1:They showed um one of the girls and she I think it was jill who said like I would have never done that knowing what I know now, like all that stuff, um, but yeah, that was that was rough to watch and they made her watch herself on that interview and she's just like cringing the whole time. That was rough. Yeah, that was very common, too, for victims.
Speaker 3:The victim at the church that I was a part of, where the pastor's son went to jail, she had to make an apology. It obviously was on Fox News, but she had to come before a lot of people and make a statement and apologize, apologize.
Speaker 2:And that's part of being the mercy right. That's taking on the sins, taking on the burdens of everyone else. They had to protect their family because that's how the family made money and had influence, and so they felt that the only way that they could do it was to go on there and basically be like no for God.
Speaker 3:They didn't want people to think that God. They didn't want any negative light on God and Christianity based on one man's mistake. That wasn't really a mistake.
Speaker 1:Just nothing negative at all. Everything was twisted to be a positive thing, no matter what. Like it's just like negative. Negative things and like controversial and like confrontational things are just not on the table.
Speaker 2:Just like one of the lines that jumped out to me was the whole oh, we didn't even know anything. Then know, anything happened. It wasn't until he told us the version that we're like oh wow, he did something to us. It's like the fuck are you talking about? Absolutely not.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I don't believe that, I don't believe that they didn't know.
Speaker 1:Dina, we learned all about the ATI teachings that originated from this piece of shit, bill.
Speaker 1:Gothard, fuck Bill Gothard, and we know your experience with the cult didn't necessarily mirror all of those things. You did experience a number of those things, or knew people who experienced a number of those things, a number of those things, or new people who experienced a number of those things. But just for the listener, like many of these things you didn't have like firsthand experience with and every person's like experience of stuff like this is going to like vary. Is that correct?
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, so I I. Every single time that I think about this topic, I'm thankful for my dad and he never told me, at least that he openly knew this was happening and laid it out. But I think that there was a part of him that knew, because I was not ever subjugated to the curriculum of ATI like all of my friends were, and I do mean all. I was never subjugated to being a gother girl, um, which we'll learn in a later episode, um, did you learn your mathematics through baking like?
Speaker 2:yeah, that's right, you only learned actually actually.
Speaker 3:So I didn't only learn fractions, but I did primary.
Speaker 2:That's a cup of flour.
Speaker 3:Yeah, primary was cooking, but then my dad also was a big mathematician, like he wanted to be a mathematician, like actual mathematician, so he did emphasize a lot of educational skills and my dad was very scientifically, scientifically based, intelligent, um, and loved math. So I got very lucky there and my dad was actually a math teacher, um, so I got like a solid education, whereas my friends did not, um, but, yeah, fractions and cooking stuff, that was that was the base, and then dina didn't do well in primary cooking class because she sets her kitchen on fire like once a week it was the metal in the green beans.
Speaker 2:Fuck you bird's eye, fuck you bird's eye, yeah, yeah um, but like, I mean, like I think that is the craziest part is it's not that the girls and the people that grow up in these cults are stupid? I think that it's like the. The cheap way to say it is that, oh well, they're dumb. I can't imagine that they, you know, weren't smart enough to get out of it, and I think that's cheap. Incredibly intelligent people. But when they are purposely withheld withheld education, basic education, given wrong education, because like one of the things they say in the book was like, oh, our hands don't have living atoms in it.
Speaker 3:Like they're just making up shit and trying to make it sound like pseudoscience to me, as like as somebody whose father was very scientific. That was wild to me to hear in the documentary. I was like I always knew that like I have cells, like moving atoms, like that was. That was crazy.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And so one last thing I want to end on a on a happy note before we get on to not a happy note, but a little bit of a lighter note. Yeah, yeah, on that note um cabbage patch dolls being satanic oh yeah, cabbage patch.
Speaker 1:no, they're not just satanic. Hold on, let me check my notes have been cursed by a fucking wizard or some shit. Hold on, I can't find it in my fucking notes I have so many fucking notes, you guys.
Speaker 2:So do I. That's what I'm saying, like dude. We spent almost two hours on this episode and we barely scratched the surface of one episode of this show Cabbage patch dolls are cursed by a warlock, I'm sorry, a warlock, a war warlock.
Speaker 1:And it wasn't just one person who said that. Like multiple people said we weren't allowed to have cabbage patch dolls, and a couple of people were like I was told an elaborate reason why, but I don't remember exactly what they said, and then they had a couple of people say that and then one person was finally went into the whole explanation of, like, every time a cabbage patch doll is made, it's then cursed by a warlock before it's put into the packaging, and it was dead serious, I know.
Speaker 3:Oh, and Barbies are harlots.
Speaker 1:Barbie dolls are harlots.
Speaker 3:Okay, so first of all, I had Barbies, much to my father's dismay, much to my father's dismay. You whore, you whore, Much to my father's dismay. And I remember another friend.
Speaker 1:Did you have tiny like nun outfits for your Barbie?
Speaker 2:Did you have Quaker Barbie? Barbie now comes with switching rod to boost their child.
Speaker 3:My father was so upset that my mother always insisted on Barbies, and I love my Barbies. I still have them.
Speaker 1:I'm not ashamed. They just have a smooth crotch and no nipples, Like there's nothing in it. That's almost correct about a Barbie.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I had.
Speaker 3:Barbies and I had one other friend that had Barbies and she was not allowed to undress the Barbie herself. Her mom had to change the outfits. Anyway, cabbage Patch Dolls. I was one of the people. I cannot for the life of me remember what the reasoning was, but I remember walking into Walmart. It was Christmas time and there was a Cabbage Patch Doll on sale and I was like I want to add that to my christmas list and my mom gave me this elaborate reason why not? And I assume it was a satanic warlock, maybe, maybe it was just that the pastor said no, but I remember not being allowed to have cabbage patch dolls and in high school friends would reference cabbage patch dolls like from their childhood yeah and I would be like, yeah, I never had one.
Speaker 3:They'd be like, oh my god, how did you not? And in high school friends would reference Cabbage Patch dolls like from their childhood. Yeah, and I would be like, yeah, I never had one. They'd be like, oh my God, how did you not? Instead, I had this like knockoff super bulky American Girl doll. I also later got an American.
Speaker 1:Girl doll. But yeah, I had this like really weird, it was the Lettuce.
Speaker 2:Crop Gals doll.
Speaker 3:I don't know, I call him like naked baby or something, because, like I, didn't like any of their clothes, so the baby was always naked. I don't know that's fair Anyway.
Speaker 2:I was going to say I mean, listen, we'll do. The next part of the Kickstarter Is that for your book Something Special coming out in September, September 19, 2024. Yeah, and the Kickstarter starts in March. We can sell Cabbage Patch dolls, or we can. Maybe, if people donate enough, you can buy your first Cabbage Patch doll, dina.
Speaker 3:Somebody get me a Cabbage Patch doll. I don't understand the appeal of them, honestly.
Speaker 1:But now you can say you can own one. You never actually got one. I assume that's how you got your magic powers.
Speaker 2:The warlock. No, I assume that's how you got your magic powers, the warlock.
Speaker 1:No. All right, so you guys so on the next chapter of this series um. Bill Gothard and Jim Bob Duggar grow their shared vision into an international empire on the backs of young people with unpaid labor, abuse and threats of retaliation.
Speaker 1:They build until Gothard is finally cut down inside of his own organization, but the roots he puts down are now spreading everywhere. God damn, let us know what you think in the comments, let us know on our voicemail. Man 347, 69, weird. Leave us a message if you're watching along with us, if you have a question for dina about her experience, uh, in her cult. Uh, let us know. Man, three, four, seven, sixty, nine, weird. Three, four, seven, six, nine, nine.
Speaker 2:Three, four, seven, three dina, I need this to be like headcanon, like we have a flashback scene in book three where paisley opens up a package. It's a cabbage package, kid cabbage, and that's the first time she gets her discernment powers that was.
Speaker 3:That was the screaming pumpkin. The screaming pumpkin was actually just a cabbage. That's what it was, wow all right guys.
Speaker 2:Well, listen, too late to change that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was gonna say yeah, can I edit yeah, but hey guys, thank you so much for checking out this episode. I hope you guys like our cult episodes. They're a little bit of a um, you know, a little bit different than our normal ones, but I I think it's a really important discussion and I think it's a fascinating topic, and so I hope you guys enjoyed as much as we do and I can't wait to jump back into the next dugger insanity um when I was a kid I thought that a penis looked like a nose.
Speaker 3:Just so you guys know.
Speaker 2:This is also the universal sign for vagina. So currently you are sexing yourself.
Speaker 3:That's not the.
Speaker 1:She threw a V over her mouth and nose just for the listener at home.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah it's definitely sexual. So, Dina, are you so excited about our next guest? I can't believe that we've got I'm so excited. I can't wait to see she, they, them. I mean, of all the people that sean could get, it's this fucking person how great is that?
Speaker 3:I can't wait.
Speaker 1:Their book is amazing how about we talk about our live anniversary special, which is happening on March 29th? It's our two year, almost three year ish. Something like that anniversary.
Speaker 1:We didn't learn the last episode of season two of don't make it weird. Thank you so much for enduring a second season of don't make it weird. We can't wait to be back for season three. Please come watch our live show. Hang out with us, have a drink. Can't wait to be back for season three. Please come watch our live show, hang out with us, have a drink. It's going to be so much fun. March 29th, 8 pm, eastern right here on youtube.
Speaker 2:No one has to wear pants please wear pants um.
Speaker 3:Should I have cranberry wine for my book release or for the uh?
Speaker 1:yes, the answer is is yes.
Speaker 2:I only have one bottle alright, also adding to the kickstarter. In addition to cabbage patch, kids, get Dina some cranberry wine shout out please, this isn't a wish list.
Speaker 3:Cabbage patch and cranberry wine that's all she needs.
Speaker 1:You should be one of those e-gourleys that puts a wish list in your bio.
Speaker 3:I've always wanted to do that. I'm not going to lie.
Speaker 1:All right, Dinosaur D where can the folks find you?
Speaker 3:You can find me on Twitter at Dinosaur D, that's D.
Speaker 2:And Mr Donk, yeah me. Where can the folks find you? You can find me on Twitter at DanQWritesThing. That's DanQWritesThing. That's. Danqwritesthing Nobody asked and also on my website Dumps4Dank. I think I do have a real website too now.
Speaker 1:DanielJQuigleycom yeah.
Speaker 3:Also.
Speaker 1:Dumps4Dankcom. I could just make it go to your website too.
Speaker 2:We could make it all go full circle. Yeah, to your website too. Like we can, we can. We can make it all go full circle. Yeah, it's fine, perfect. No, I'm in for it. Uh, producer sean, where can the?
Speaker 1:folks find you, buddy. You can find me on twitter at chase holdu. Uh, what you have for dinner.
Speaker 3:Dina has a question dina men are talking sean, I don't have a question. I just wanted to tell you that you look really nice in your beanie.
Speaker 1:Oh, thank you so much it's beanie weather here in here in California for the one day a year. It's wonderful, but I do need to know what you're having for dinner, buddy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, same.
Speaker 1:I'm doing a leftover special man. I've got like four days of leftovers that I can choose from. I'm probably going to have some soup, because it's soup weather baby, and I've made soup twice in the last week. It's happening.
Speaker 3:Are there potatoes in that soup?
Speaker 1:So I don't have potatoes in either of those soups actually, which is unusual. I went with barley. I made a mushroom barley miso soup with some mushrooms that my co-worker grows mushrooms and he gives me his homegrown mushrooms? Yeah, those are California mushrooms, Magic mushrooms okay, and I also made some chicken tortilla soup, so I have those two to choose from.
Speaker 2:But Dina, we're clear, he has no potatoes in this. I mean, this is definitely a spanking offense, right, you guys?
Speaker 1:I usually have potatoes with every meal. This is so unusual, okay.
Speaker 2:John Dina's going to have to spank you, buddy, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:Okay, go get the rod. All right, you guys? Jazz hands, jazz hands, don't Make it Weird. With Daniel Quigley, dinosaurus and Sean Holden. Produced and edited by me. Sean Holden Theme song by Amaria, incidental music and sound effects provided by VoiceMod, as well as the YouTube Audio Library. You can rate and review this show on Spotify, apple Podcasts, goodpods and wherever else you download your podcasts. Got a question for Daniel or Dina? Call the Don't Make it Weird hotline at 347-69-WEIRD. That's 347-699-3473. And leave us a message. It could be featured on a future episode and if you haven't already, please subscribe to don't make it weird on YouTube for the video presentation or on your favorite podcast app for the audio only version of the show. Thank you so much and we love you.
Speaker 3:Don't make it weird, is that okay?
