The One Where We're Under Authority (Dina Escapes A Cult Pt. V)

Content Warning: The upcoming discussion delves into topics related to religious beliefs, strict traditional gender roles, sexual abuse, and practices that some may find restrictive or controversial. This episode in particular goes heavy on the topic of sexual abuse. Please practice good self-care, and proceed with caution if you're sensitive to such subjects or consider skipping this discussion entirely if it might be distressing to you.

In this week's episode, you'll hear about Dina's fierce encounter with a rattlesnake, showcasing her protective motherly instincts. But things get heavy as we continue to dissect the deeply unsettling documentary "Shiny Happy People," exploring the grim realities of cult life, from rigid gender roles to harrowing accounts of sexual abuse. We urge you to practice self-care as we navigate these intense topics, blending serious discourse with moments of levity.

Ever wondered about the bizarre world of conspiracy theories and the strange behaviors among the ultra-wealthy? We dive into wild theories linking Epstein’s island to the Nickelodeon logo, prompting both absurd humor and reflective moments. Dina shares her eye-opening experience with the Independent Fundamental Baptist (IFB) church, shedding light on systemic corruption and abuse within these religious communities. Our discussion spans from the exploitation in religious cults to the significant yet disturbing political connections of the Duggar family, highlighting the misuse of power and authority.

Finally, we tackle the importance of sexual education and the potentially damaging effects of purity culture. By examining the complex dynamics of authority and obedience in religious contexts, we underscore the imperative of comprehensive education and personal empowerment. Despite the gravity of these discussions, we lighten the atmosphere with playful banter. Join us for an episode filled with engaging conversations, thought-provoking insights, and a touch of humor as we confront challenging yet crucial topics.

Chapters

• 0:17 Back to the Cult
• 6:15 Conspiracy Theories and Adulting
• 12:30 The Dark Side of Purity Culture
• 21:13 Exploitation and Poverty in Religious Cults
• 30:20 The Dark Side of Church Secrecy
• 38:31 Navigating Religious Authority and Abuse
• 42:57 Talking About Sex Education and Virginity
• 49:05 Evil Cult Leaders and Power Dynamics
• 55:35 Corruption in Religious Authority
• 1:05:57 Virginity, Purity, and Hypocrisy
• 1:14:05 Responsibility and Abuse in Religious Culture
• 1:21:57 Cult Conversations and Smiles
• 1:26:35 Podcast Production With Daniel Quigley

Transcript

Speaker 3: 0:17

It's the Don't Make it Weird Podcast with your hosts, daniel and Dinosaurus, for anyone, don't listen to me, it's for your faces, it's for your beautiful, sexy, sexy faces. But we want to be your comedy storytelling podcast and we hope you guys uh check this out because, uh, I am joined as always by my better half. I am joined by the shining star of strenuous, serendipitous, stupendous serenity dina sores. Hey, so d quick question how come you didn't put on makeup today? I thought the show was serious.

Speaker 4: 0:50

I just natural beauty Is more important to me Than anything.

Speaker 3: 0:55

Than doing any makeup or spending an hour In a discord channel putting on makeup. Is that, Dina? You look gorgeous. You look gorgeous. Thank you your hair's on point, you are. You are prepared. So. So, dina, I felt like, after like last week's cringy copulation where we got like really into Jurassic loads, that there was only one real choice here. Would you agree that it's it's time to just fucking get back to the cult?

Speaker 4: 1:25

I agree Back to the cult. I agree Back to the cult, to the cult machine.

Speaker 3: 1:29

Back to the cult everyone, and that's what we're going to be doing today, guys.

Speaker 1: 1:31

She decided to rejoin the cult after being subject to that. What if I did?

Speaker 3: 1:36

After some Chuck Tingle Dean was like nope, I'm good here. Secular community.

Speaker 1: 1:40

That was way too secular. That was like extreme secularism.

Speaker 4: 1:45

That was way too secular. That was like extreme secular secularism.

Speaker 3: 1:46

That was just the devil, that was just purely the devil. And, guys, if you're hearing a third voice here, that's the only adult in the room, because you know what guys. So rock me Shawnee like a wagon wheel. Rock me Shawnee any way you feel. Hey, shawnee, rock me. Rock me Shawnee like the wind and the rain. Rock me Shawnee like a choo-choo train.

Speaker 4: 2:06

I need you to cut him off. He's way too into that.

Speaker 3: 2:09

Rock me, Producer Shawn everyone.

Speaker 1: 2:12

What's up, buddy? I was right there. I was hovering over the boot button.

Speaker 3: 2:22

It was right there to get the hook in there and get it out.

Speaker 1: 2:24

I was hovering over the button yeah, listen.

Speaker 3: 2:28

Uh, I feel really good about my dedication in season three.

Speaker 1: 2:33

Dina is like completely butchering her, her camera frame right now, like yeah, in the middle of hold on, I was freaking out because in the middle of daniel introducing her, she's like adjusting her camera and like moving things around and I can hear her arm rubbing against her microphone and I'm like, oh God, is she going to recover in time? Earlier she smacked her microphone because there was a bug on it. And it went like really loudly and me and Daniel jumped.

Speaker 3: 3:03

But to be fair, Dina, you've had a little bit of a day. Why don't we pull back the curtains? Let let people into your home. What just happened? What did you just experience?

Speaker 4: 3:10

like five minutes ago yeah, so like nine o'clock hit when we're supposed to record. I was on the toilet and I had. I was taking pee and as I pulled down my pants, leaving pants cheeks touched porcelain and I said that's a weird looking hair, that's a fucking rattlesnake and we had to catch and wrangle a rattlesnake while I was supposed to be in the studio.

Speaker 3: 3:37

Listen, let's not play this easy. How were you attempting to get this rattlesnake?

Speaker 4: 3:41

Dina Just trying to grab it and Tim came in and he was like move, I've got gloves and tongs.

Speaker 3: 3:50

You know I'm not up on my rattlesnake lore, sean, but baby rattlesnakes are the most poisonous.

Speaker 1: 3:56

Am I right? I mean I assume so they have the freshest venom.

Speaker 3: 4:00

Freshest venom. Yeah, so you're going after the most venomous version of an incredibly venomous snake barehanded. That's so fucking florida, dina.

Speaker 4: 4:09

I can't with you um, I just all that I was thinking of was to protect my child those mom instincts yeah, those mom checked in and she was like bite me, not the baby I'm like, have you seen those? Uh videos of the mom protecting your child from a bear and like the mom, literally just like is holding the child back to bear just to protect the child. I cry every time, bro yeah and listen.

Speaker 3: 4:35

Imagine if any of those parenting instincts were present in this documentary that we are about to discuss today. Guys, um, maybe it'd be less traumatic and make us less sad in this episode. So for those guys that don't know, we normally have fun. We normally get goofy and get wild and, you know, as our show says, we don't make it weird, except every so often. We've got a nice connection with cult life, and Dina will explain about that in a little bit. But we are talking about shiny, happy people. Today we're diving back into the cult and, uh, this is a really fucking traumatic episode. Uh, so be wary, dina. What? What do we want to tell the folks?

Speaker 4: 5:13

the upcoming discussion delves into topics related to religious beliefs, strict traditional gender roles, sexual abuse and practices that some may find restrictive or controversial. This episode in particular goes heavy on the topic of sexual abuse, so please practice good self-care and proceed with caution if you're sensitive to such subjects, or consider skipping this discussion entirely if it might be distressing to you.

Speaker 3: 5:37

And especially in this episode, guys, you are 100% like practice self-care, because it's going to be a fucking wild one Before we get to the craz wild one before we get to the craziness, because cuba pinot baby yep, this is gonna be our self-care. I'm gonna be drinking moonshine, uh, straight out of the mason jar today. Uh, sean, if folks want to drink along with us, what are we doing?

Speaker 1: 6:00

um oh yeah, we should absolutely segue into talking about the drinking games before we get started. We have a couple of drinking games we play ongoing. Dina's pissing in her cup right now and there might be another rattlesnake nearby, who knows? We are members of Buffalo Club. We practice Buffalo here. That means we use our offhand to drink. We're all right handed. That means we must use our left hand for caught. Using our right hand, we can buffalo each other, which means we call each other out and if you get caught, you have to finish your drink. Um, we also have some particular bud, but buzzwords and phrases.

Speaker 1: 6:37

If you hear this, that means someone said one of those things and dina's camera just died.

Speaker 3: 6:43

Oh no, she's back there she is.

Speaker 1: 6:46

If you hear this sound, that means that someone said one of those buzzwords or phrases and that means we have to drink Um and uh. Yeah, play along with us at home responsibly.

Speaker 3: 6:59

Yeah, or you know, don't like, just have a bad time and you know, whatever you want to do, You're an adult. We trust you guys, and if you're not an adult, why are you here? You should not be here. I feel like we say this every episode. But, guys, we sometimes, sometimes I need you guys to turn off the lights. I need you to put on some good mood music. I need you to leave your disbelief at the door, because it's time for Dina's.

Speaker 4: 7:32

I had to burp, sorry.

Speaker 3: 7:34

Girls don't burp False.

Speaker 4: 7:35

Yeah, it was just a face fart.

Speaker 3: 7:43

All right, go on.

Speaker 4: 7:44

I don't know if anybody else has watched the documentary about nickelodeon, whatever.

Speaker 3: 7:50

Uh, quiet on set uh, I watched like the first episode of it, yeah so anybody else notice, keep it on brand here that epstein's um island is the same shape as the nickelodeon logo go on. That's it. That's it. So so are we saying that nickelodeon purposely made their logo to look like epstein island?

Speaker 1: 8:17

yes, why I?

Speaker 3: 8:22

don't see child sex trafficking. Well, okay, I'm aware of that, but why is Nicola? This is my biggest problem with all of these hidden clues and stuff towards sex trafficking. If you're doing something highly immoral, highly illegal and the type of thing that can get you killed or your entire life and family's life and businesses ruined, why would you try to hide clues for people to to see? I'm trying to get off on the power than Dina's phone. So getting off on like being able to like fuck with people in straight sight.

Speaker 4: 9:00

Yeah, so when you're that, rich, like money stops mattering Right. So what do you what like? What do you get out of life?

Speaker 3: 9:11

Power, thumbing your nose at the peasants, that you can let them. Okay, that's Jeffrey. I mean if you rotated it a little bit, like I can.

Speaker 4: 9:23

There's also another island off to the side that matches that dot okay, all right, we're digging deeper in here. Nickelodeon part of the sex traffic or it could just be like a jizz splat you know oh oh my god, daniel, yeah, let's delete that. Let's go, let's delete that.

Speaker 3: 9:47

Let's go ahead and delete that whole thing.

Speaker 4: 9:49

He works with children. We have to Beep that out.

Speaker 3: 9:56

I'm sorry Sean hates me so much Right now Cause out of context. That could be the single worst thing I've ever. Sean hates me so much right now. Why did you think?

Speaker 1: 10:09

Because out of context that could be the single worst thing I've ever said on this show, not just on this show.

Speaker 3: 10:19

What the fuck? Because it's like it's so absurd to me that you try, even though nickelodeon did have a lot of cumshot jokes and all that which is highly weird in retrospect, and a whole other can of worms I never even thought about. But, um, yeah, with nickelodeon maybe that joke hits a little too close to home here, so comfortable. So okay, uh, jeffrey epstein is part of the Illuminati that is thumbing their nose at the peasants in plain sight and Nickelodeon is getting in on it to let you know that you have no power and control and that children and innocence has no place here in America. Is that what, the general TikTok, we're going for? Sure.

Speaker 3: 11:00

Excellent, excellent. Sean, how true do you rate this, this conspiracy?

Speaker 4: 11:09

10 out of 10 lightly plausible listen.

Speaker 3: 11:13

Your last one still rocks my world the ways like fucking uh app. Because now I've started going my own way on purpose just to see if I can save time and every time like, yeah, I, I'm now fighting the machine. And out of all the conspiracy tiktoks we've done that one still blows my mind yeah, and I can't. I saved myself nearly 10 minutes today, because I didn't follow the gpa yeah 10 minutes, yeah, I wanted me to take 41, like one or two.

Speaker 4: 11:42

Instead of just taking the main highway.

Speaker 3: 11:48

There you go. Dina's getting wins everywhere here, guys. So I have a question, sean like are we allowed to have a quick shower thought?

Speaker 1: 12:03

That's up to Dina. She's piloting this ship today, dina how quick is it? I mean, it's already too long.

Speaker 3: 12:14

Okay, all right, we won't get in the shower, guys, we're gonna stay like the sahara desert out there guys.

Speaker 3: 12:30

So, guys, we're gonna be jumping into discussing shiny, happy people. This is our third time discussing it and we have a little bit of a history, um, with colts and stuff like that. Uh, before we describe what the show is about, dina, tell us a little bit about, kind of. For the folks that this is maybe their first episode, maybe they don't fully understand, give them a little bit of your history and how it relates to what we're going to be talking about.

Speaker 4: 12:51

Yeah, so I grew up in the IFB Independent Fundamental Baptist Organization. I was involved in three separate IFB churches and there's a lot of corruption, a lot of abuse, and this particular episode is going to focus on the sexual abuse, just like it did in shiny, happy people.

Speaker 3: 13:12

And uh, sean, what is shiny happy people?

Speaker 1: 13:15

Uh, it's a limited television documentary on Amazon prime video, not a sponsor um, about the Duggar family who became famous on TLC with their 19 kids and counting show and its relationship with the Institute and basic life principles, the IBLP. This came out last year, about a year ago, and we're on episode three of the four part series.

Speaker 4: 13:38

And IFB and IBLP are very closely related not quite the same thing, but independent fundamental baptists um and the duggar family was idolized in the if yeah, so I mean, it's definitely very adjacent, even if they don't, uh, aren't technically under the same like financial umbrella.

Speaker 3: 13:55

Um, they're hanging out with each other at the barbecue. Is that what we're saying?

Speaker 3: 13:58

yeah, yeah, like we would go to the same camps, and yeah, they fucking they'd just be fucking under the table um, and so in the last episode that we talked about, we, we really got into um kind of what happened with josh duggar and then a lot of what the actual mechanics of inside of like the control elements inside of the church, um, you know, we got into eye traps, courting, um, a lot of the relationship type of stuff and, uh, kind of a general idea of how they do control. We kind of touched on paul gothard a little bit. But episode three is where really starts.

Speaker 4: 14:36

You're talking yeah, you keep saying, paul, it's bill we finally get into bill gothard and um we talked about paul.

Speaker 1: 14:44

Now we're going to talk about bill and a little little paul bill.

Speaker 3: 14:51

I don't want to talk about steve um, but uh, you know, give us a little bit.

Speaker 1: 14:56

Uh, the the quick rundown of what happened in this episode sean yeah, so, um, it really starts with focusing on authority and how like in power kind of flex, that to keep people in control. Focusing a little bit on how Jill and her husband were basically manipulated into staying on the show and tricked into signing contracts that made them legally committed to staying on for no pay, and we'll get into that, I'm sure. Um, it kind of focused on how, like even jim, how how jim bob was like portrayed as like a lovable kind of like, uh, like a goofy kind of like a lovable dude they almost portray the dads in these families like a goofy, lovable cuck.

Speaker 4: 15:46

Like you know, just he just adores and loves his wife. I'm like you'll do anything for, but like behind the scenes, they're jackasses.

Speaker 1: 15:52

Yeah, and he never. He's never not smiling on camera, he's never angry, he's never raising his voice or anything. He's always looking like he's happy, go lucky and he's just like this lovable dude, um. But we learned that behind the scenes he was kind of the puppeteer of the entire family and he was taking all the money from tlc and none of the kids were getting paid for their years and years of work and contributions to the tv show some of their adults were taking food from food banks, while this fucking guy's a millionaire.

Speaker 3: 16:24

Sorry, sorry, we're still doing it.

Speaker 1: 16:28

And how that power dynamic really makes people feel like they have no choice, especially when it has to do with family. And then it spirals into sexual allegations against specific powerful men in the organization, mostly about bill Um and uh, that whole snowballing thing where people kind of looked at him at like he was Jesus or the Pope or whatever. So no one really questioned it If he was seen being inappropriate or anything. They were just like, oh well, he's like an important person and he would never do anything wrong. Um, we'll get into that too. And um, he's like an important person and he would never do anything wrong. We'll get into that too. And basically, how feeling like you're under authority by powerful men can lead you to being victimized and not knowing what to do.

Speaker 3: 17:50

The, the rules put in place are specifically designed so that victims of these assaults are not supposed accountable. And and before we dive into this, uh, every time we do the cult episode, I just like to give like a quick other shout out we are not anti-religion here on this podcast we have. You know, I'm jewish. Dina's christian sean has his own belief system. Um, you know we are very open-minded in a very uh, you know, pro, do what you do way. What we are going to be doing this episode is mocking extremism, mocking this absolute batshit, insane authority. We have no problem with actual religion and people who are using it to better their lives. So I don't want people to feel like this is an attack. This is an attack on people who abuse religion in the name of um and dean. I know you have some kind of feelings.

Speaker 4: 18:31

Before we jump into this, yeah, this, that that was actually a good thanks for hitting it over here. Um, so yeah, real quick, I just want to like be because we're going to talk a lot about purity culture and sexual deviance within the IFB, iblp, whatever and I want to be like super crystal clear and authentic and I don't want to behave a critical because I am a Christian. I believe in respecting what everybody else believes and I like approaching people based on what they believe and respecting that, no matter what it is, even if I disagree, like I'm not gonna. I don't argue with people about their beliefs.

Speaker 4: 19:09

I believe that purity culture in and of itself is good, but I think that that's because I believe that having sex outside of marriage I believe that it's sin. I don't think you should do it. Other people if they think that they should, or whatever, go ahead, do it. I don't care. That's not my problem, not my business, and I'm not going to judge you for it either. I'll support whatever you believe in, but I think that purity culture gets used in really gross, horrible ways. So the actual act of purity culture and how it is taught and how it is portrayed and just ingrained into people, I think that is what is absolutely disgusting and gross and wrong, because how it's done in the ifb totally wrong. Saving yourself for marriage I don't have a problem with that.

Speaker 3: 19:59

but yeah, purity culture bad, yeah and and I think that there's a difference between having the freedom of choice to either save yourself or not save yourself and having that choice taken away, and I think that that's the biggest difference here in what we'll be discussing. And, like we said at the beginning, this is going to be a difficult episode. There's a lot of kind of dark stuff and you know I try not to get riled up and get on the soapbox. We can actually have a discussion, but, man, this was probably one of the, if not the most difficult episode for me to watch personally. Um, and and a lot of it starts with just the absolute control and authority. You see, dina, do you want to talk a little bit about what the umbrella of authority is?

Speaker 4: 20:41

yeah, so they describe in the umbrella of authority is where in the IBLP and the IFB, you have God as the ultimate authority I agree with that and then you have a father and then you have like the mother and then children. So father is head of the family, no matter what. Mom is not technically on an equal playing field. In the IFB you have most commonly though they don't say it you have god, pastor, father, mother, children and and the.

Speaker 3: 21:13

And the weird part is too is that you know, to be very clear, like the mother is on the very end of the umbrella, like she's still getting a little bit of rain on her, she's still like the hair is still getting wet, I mean, she's technically maybe got like a toe underneath it. Because one of the weird things for me too is, like you know, they talked about that, like all these different programs, these different compounds and facilities that they had, that whoever was in charge was the oldest male there yeah, oh yeah, I almost added that and I don't know.

Speaker 4: 21:40

My brain threw it out like once her, her male children, reach a certain age, she's listening to them like she's not. She's no longer because he's a man of god now and he can tell her what to do, not like go to your room, but like he then becomes a guide and like an authority that she looks to for her religion.

Speaker 3: 22:04

At that point, once he's older, especially if he's left alone as the oldest man, and and what it creates is this insane system and this is the biggest thing that you'll notice and why, especially you know, this gets to us classified as a cult, is that every one of these participants, the people, that the people who make up the church, not the leaders, not the, you know, people in the that are the decision makers, but the actual people that are in the cult, they're all poor, they're typically uneducated, they're in place Typically didn't say all.

Speaker 4: 22:38

They also act poor A lot of times. Yes, like people like Jim Bob will act poor of times.

Speaker 1: 22:45

Yes, like people like jim, bob will act poor they. They're poor because they they pay for these overpriced fucking religious programs that they send their children to, even when they can't afford it and then they're forced to live on fucking food stamps and give their money to the church and yeah, yep, so they can have that private jet and that extra house and that extra facility.

Speaker 3: 23:02

You know we're talking about. These people are on food stamps at food banks. I mean the Duggars they even talked about in the first episode before they made it big and they were on the show. I mean they were. You know, if kids eat free at a restaurant, they were at that restaurant so they could feed their entire family. These are not, um, wealthy people joining these churches and it allows them to be taken advantage of because they're desperate, they need these things, and so then it gets sorry, go on no, I I interrupted you.

Speaker 4: 23:28

I'm sorry I, I was just thinking like I think that it's. They prey on these poorer families because they're so desperate to look for happiness and they can't get it and they're like, oh, this everybody at this church is happy. They've practiced their fucking smile.

Speaker 3: 23:44

Of course they look happy yeah, oh and, and they'll feed you after church and they'll talk about like we talked about before, how they would take them to get dentist work done and things like that and. And that's how they trap you and they force you to rely on them. And one of the things that we saw in this episode is how these kids at a young age, basically, were fully exploited free child labor. They were indentured servants 16-hour days to build houses, to do this masonry work, to learn this vocational stuff. They're taught education is unnecessary. You don't need to go to college here, work 16-hour days so we can build this new church facility.

Speaker 4: 24:21

Oh, and that was so common too. Like none of the men, men, the boys that were in the cults that I was in they didn't get college degrees, they don't have real jobs.

Speaker 3: 24:31

They're like job hopping, doing construction work, like working for the church, because they, they are left with nothing into adulthood yeah, and I think that that's the part that messes with me the most is that, like, think about these duggar kid. Like all these 20 plus Duggar kids, they don't have appreciable skills. Their family's income was based on this show, so when this show went away, what are they left with?

Speaker 1: 24:59

The exploitation of their daughters, who just had to lie on television and tell everyone that their older brother didn't molest them and then they had to be the stars of a new show because the original show was canceled.

Speaker 1: 25:12

So they were they kind of had their arm bent into not only like lying to everyone about how they were victims of sexual abuse, covering for their brother and their family, but then like completely exploited and not get a dime of whatever was paid out by tlc and I actually know several girls that were sexually exploited or molested, some even raped, that had to publicly apologize in front of the church, or at least in front of leaders, for tempting men eye traps eye traps, baby and like, and I think that's the part that really like in the beginning, like really mess with me is that they get away with it because it's under the guise of religion, because it's for the church.

Speaker 3: 26:02

They're learning to do this stuff, so in the eyes of the law, this isn't a big deal. This isn't illegal. This is just building character, building strong boys, but none of them see the benefits of their own work and they, they are so reliant they don't, and that's what keeps them in the cycle of poverty, of desperation. Is that, like your one friend that we had on the the, you know a lost episode, and we talked about how you said she's gone missing, right?

Speaker 4: 26:26

yeah, I haven't heard from her anything. I don't know what's going on, like I don't know she went back. I don't, I don't know she ran.

Speaker 3: 26:33

I have no idea and that thing is that if you are not under this church umbrella, you can't survive in the secular world. You don't have any skills, your education has been homeschooled or through this Gothard program, and so you are left that this is your one option, right?

Speaker 4: 26:52

Yeah, and you know it's crazy because I don't understand how they get away with this under the guise of the Bible, because the Bible even says that the laborer is worth his wage. And they're sitting there exploiting children for To get like and I get it.

Speaker 1: 27:08

It like volunteer work is great, but like uh yeah, it was more like your payment was your opportunity to serve, like that's how it was like no you work 16 hours a day and you do all this manual labor and you were just expected to serve just for the benefit of serving alone.

Speaker 3: 27:32

Yeah, there's there was nothing to it and, like you know and you want to, what was weird? Because, like, let's dive into a little bit of the Duggar finances, so none of the kids got paid out. Well, definitely none of the girls got paid out.

Speaker 1: 27:44

The kids didn't even know what the payouts were apparently like. They were like trying to figure out what jim bob got paid and he was just like how's 10, 10 an hour sound? Yeah. And this was like after they got no money for like almost a decade and they were finally like hey, listen, we, we can't survive, we have no money. We're like going to food banks, like can we get paid for this? Like can you help us pay the medical bills from the birth of our child? Like how much do you want?

Speaker 4: 28:15

I can give you ten dollars an hour, the birth of our child, that you recorded without us like, without our consent they specifically said they didn't want any cameras in there.

Speaker 3: 28:25

And so tlc comes back and says, all right, fine man, we won't put a cameraman in there, it's cool, just take these cameras, do it yourself. And so, despite them wanting no one in the room and wanting this to be a completely private thing, they had to have cameras everywhere and the whole fucking thing documented like that's crazy.

Speaker 4: 28:40

I can't imagine shitting myself and my husband being like like stop.

Speaker 3: 28:47

See me at my absolute worst moment in my life and let's do it for likes.

Speaker 4: 28:51

Absolutely and like get no money.

Speaker 3: 28:56

Yeah, so TLC, if you hadn't watched the episode, they they reach out to TLC said hey, so we recorded, despite we didn't want to. Could you um like? Just help us with the hospital bill yeah. Yeah. Uh, and they're like yeah, you're going to take it up with your dad. They were like we already paid.

Speaker 1: 29:13

Your dad got the money, hey man.

Speaker 3: 29:16

And it's such a disrespectful amount. Yeah, we could, I could an hour like. I'd rather just not even be offered like to get paid like even in Arkansas. $10 an hour in this day and age is so disrespectful from the man.

Speaker 3: 29:31

That was also what he ran as a millionaire and like he was a politician, to like it yeah no and like, and I think that that's like something I kind of go back to that like messes with me over the course of this entire episode is that if Josh Duggar doesn't fuck up, if Josh Duggar is one of the church people that is able to keep a lid on it, that keeps his shit quiet enough, like if he was a better, sick, fucking criminal. Like I don't think any of these girls are out.

Speaker 4: 30:05

No, and you know, what's also crazy Is there was one line that they said in the episode where Jim Bob wanted to give them money because the boys wanted to start up some businesses. That business was Josh's downfall and I often wonder if because Josh was keeping his child pornography stash on the computer in that business.

Speaker 3: 30:34

I wonder if Jim Bob knew that it couldn't be at the house and he gave him an out on where he could keep it.

Speaker 4: 30:38

Absolutely. There's no way a man that was.

Speaker 3: 30:40

Dina's conspiracy corner. That's another conspiracy. I'm going to give a 10 out of 10 to Dina because I'm with you, because that man was in such control, like such control of every little bit of the thing behind the scenes. I mean we already discussed they knew and try to cover it up, but there's no way he didn't know all along. There's no fucking way, I'm with you. He 100% and like that's thing.

Speaker 3: 31:01

If Josh Duggar doesn't fuck up, if he doesn't get caught, jim Bob is probably wins that politician seat in arkansas and he probably advances to higher up because he's got name value, he's got the christian morals, he's got the wholesomeness guarantee. He goes up. I mean, he still tried to run for state senate in arkansas, despite there being an active investigation. That is fucking bold, bro, like that's. What I'm saying is that imagine this those, if this doesn't happen, if this domino doesn't get knocked over, none of this gets revealed. We're not talking about this. The girls are still there. Probably the reality show is still going on. These guys are now going to be fully up higher levels of the government. I mean, think about that.

Speaker 1: 31:44

We, even without him running for office. They had incredible political connections oh yeah, the Huckabees and Sarah.

Speaker 4: 31:53

Palin, yeah, sarah Palin, yeah, mcgee.

Speaker 1: 31:57

They had absolutely had connections and political power through the people that they knew, through the church, and even if he didn't become or didn't run for office, like they still would have had that power. And like I mean parlay that into like the fucking government funded like facilities that they talked about, and like how bill gothard used like tax money, basically that he was eligible for through some loophole to pay for these crazy facilities.

Speaker 3: 32:28

Like the government's just handing out cash to them.

Speaker 1: 32:31

Like what did they say? Excel and character first and um yeah, all these crazy names, all these all these crazy facilities that they claimed had nothing to do with Bible study or God and just kind of like skirted around that um church and state requirement.

Speaker 3: 32:50

I mean that was like heavily based in that, because think about how, what an easy sell that is if you're a politician. You go into your senate chamber and say, hey guys, we want to put some money down towards this church. We're going to be nice and wholesome here. Also, these guys, uh, are, you know, financing us done rubber stamp, probably not even a discussion. You know and like. And to the cover up thing, because I found the craziest part is that there's so many parallels between the Gothard brothers and what happened with the Duggar family. Because think about you know how we talk, about how Josh Duggar doesn't fuck this up, that family still in power, resources on TV, all all that I mean.

Speaker 1: 33:31

Bill's brother fucked up a million times, 30, 35 years, before Bill was removed from the church or from the organization.

Speaker 4: 33:38

And not only that, but then they tried to marry him off to fix it.

Speaker 1: 33:42

Yeah, they're like that's going to fix it. We'll just find him a wife in the church.

Speaker 3: 33:46

It wasn't just a wife in the church, guys. I don't know if you missed this part. It was one of his victims. They tried to make a scandal. Yeah, they tried to make a scandal.

Speaker 1: 33:55

That was the whole caveat of that.

Speaker 3: 33:58

Is that they wanted to marry him off to one of his victims, so it's not a big deal. They were actually in love, it's fine he married. He did the right thing.

Speaker 1: 34:06

He married her and she's not a victim, obviously because she can't rape your wife exactly and and like.

Speaker 3: 34:16

And that's a fucked up part is that bill gothard and we're gonna. I want to get really deep into bill here. Oh god, gross, uh, that's what she said. Um, I want to dive deeper in. There's no way to say it.

Speaker 3: 34:30

Um we will discuss him further in detail. But, like, because I want to talk a little bit about dina's experience in this but like one of the things that like gets me this guy, his brother, just is molesting, abusing, assaulting everyone and everyone in this church that he's building, this multi, 90 million dollar things like hey, hey, you, you gotta, you gotta, cut ties with steve man. He's like no, no, no, no, I'm gonna bring him to this facility in new york. You mean this really beautiful, isolated one that has no oversight and, uh, he has absolute freedom.

Speaker 1: 35:07

That's the one that's gonna be the one that's set, and everyone who's insolent. They get sent to steve in this isolated place in new york like oh yeah, hey, you disrespected your dad's authority.

Speaker 3: 35:19

Guess what you get? To get steved motherfucker.

Speaker 4: 35:22

Like steve was meeting them all in the prayer rooms.

Speaker 3: 35:30

He has more scandals and and Bill's like listen, I know he's fucked up twice already, but he's a good guy. We'll just kind of remove them from this one authority position to another one. It'll be totally cool and we'll marry him off to a victim that's exactly what happened when that all fell through and they finally pressured him to boot steve out of the organization.

Speaker 1: 35:54

He was like okay, okay, okay, I'll ask him to leave. But now there's a new rule. It's like the anti-gossip rule yeah, we found it matthew matthew 18, yeah, or something yeah you're not allowed to do, to do gossip, which really just means you're not allowed to publicly accuse anyone. Someone did something to you, you're supposed to only accuse them personally and privately, so that no one else knows about it.

Speaker 3: 36:18

So, dina, next time you accuse me of giving bad hugs, I'm going to quote Matthew 18 at you, because that's not OK. That's accusations, that's salacious. And I will not stand for it. I'm spreading gossip.

Speaker 4: 36:30

I actually grew up in that culture like the Matthew 2 18, is that it? Yeah that's Matthew 2.

Speaker 3: 36:37

18 is the culture that I grew up in and like that's and that's another thing that just messes with me and fucks me up is like his big punishment is that. Hey, listen bro, like I guarantee I don't, I haven't followed up on Steve. I guarantee he left and lived a very comfortable, very lavish life, faced zero consequences.

Speaker 4: 36:57

Guarantee he did continue to do creepy shit off the radar, don't worry.

Speaker 3: 37:02

Yeah, and that's what I'm saying. There's no punishment, there's no real punishment for all of it. All it is is like hey, man, you just got to get out of the public face now, but you're going to live a very comfortable, happy life.

Speaker 4: 37:14

That's what happened with the goat fucker. Was his punishment what? After abusing his wife, locking?

Speaker 3: 37:20

her in closets. Tell him who the goat fucker is first. Let's not keep inside jokes to ourselves.

Speaker 4: 37:26

I thought that I had talked about the goat fucker before in here.

Speaker 3: 37:29

Oh you have, but for the audience, I want you to give us a quick refresh on who the goat fucker is.

Speaker 4: 37:33

Okay, goat fucker. He went to the third cult that I was in and he got married to a girl from Bible College and he abused her heavily and he abused, abused their children. I think they had two children. Um, his dad was the music director and so therefore his family was like prestigious, high up, and his wife found out that, like he had fucked a goat or something and not or something, he fucked a goat allegedly um allegedly, I heard, they were married, so that's okay he did the right thing by the goat.

Speaker 3: 38:10

Okay, like the goat's, not a victim guys um, and she was.

Speaker 4: 38:19

She ran away, but she was also like, talked about on from the pulpit, like, and called a horrible person and a sinner and a harlot and she left her family.

Speaker 3: 38:31

What are we even doing here?

Speaker 4: 38:32

yeah, I'm pretty sure he's still there I couldn't find him on facebook to follow up, like to see where his life was at. And then I found out it's because I blocked him. So I'm just gonna have to like create a fake facebook, I guess, and figure out what's yeah, that's the only solution.

Speaker 3: 38:46

Not use minor Sean's Facebook to look them up, but you use a fake one. Can you help me? Out here, yeah, I got paper trail.

Speaker 1: 38:53

I don't want to goat fucker paper trail, I want to get a friend request.

Speaker 3: 39:00

Hey bro, I heard you're into goats and they want to want to want to do this together, man. But all right, so talk to a little bit about because you were under this umbrella of authority, you're, you know. Thankfully, your man holding the umbrella was a good person, so your experience was different than others, but you were still subject to these issues and these authorities, especially if your dad was not present in church. Like what was that like growing up for you?

Speaker 4: 39:27

Yeah, um, I always like I mean I still like dads, dads are in charge of the family, like that's that I feel like that's normal. But I view moms is very much equal now too. Um, but it was very much everything had to go by dad Except with the IFB. Like Everything had to go by dad except with the IFB. Like there was a little friction in our family because my dad was going to be in charge of our family no matter what, but in the IFB the pastor wants control and that's kind of what always saved us, honestly, was that my dad was not going to give a pastor control as much as he tried, and a lot of times, like my mom would even I think it was just the culture that we were in.

Speaker 4: 40:07

A lot of times, like my mom would even I think it was just the culture that we were in. She would comply with our culture and like go to the pastor and like listen to the pastor over my dad and it caused a lot of tension and friction and like I did it sometimes too, where I would just go to the man of authority, the pastor, if dad wasn't there and it became very much like where pastor was father figure and for some girls I was lucky I was not molested that I'm aware of at all. But some girls that father figure turned into some daddy issues that were not mutually consensual and it was just power that was used and abused. Because when a man that is not your father or stepdad or somebody that's going to be there to protect you, gets power over you, they use and abuse that, especially in that purity culture environment where it they're suppressed and repressed and all that they know is to just pop off.

Speaker 4: 41:05

And I kind of want to touch on something that you just said here.

Speaker 3: 41:07

Just pop off on those instincts, and I kind of want to touch on something that you just said here, because you've said it before and it's something that is really interesting and equal parts depressing is that you know, when you've talked about how, to your knowledge, you've not been molested or assaulted growing up.

Speaker 4: 41:23

Yeah so.

Speaker 3: 41:23

I don't have people.

Speaker 4: 41:24

I don't have any memory of being molested at all, but I do have memories where, like I don't know what happened, I don't know why, like I don't remember, why I don't remember situations and I don't, and like I was alone with the pastor of our first cult, a lot went to their house, a lot and I, I just don't, I don't know, so I can't say no, he definitely didn't, because like there's a part of me where I'm like I can't be the only girl, because literally every other girl, but I don't remember and that's the part that that that is really difficult and really, I think, illustrates the difficulty of this whole culture, of this uh, movement, is that, listen, I mean we trust your memories.

Speaker 3: 42:07

Obviously you know, I believe you when you say that absolutely nothing happened. But because you're so aware of what happens in these cultures, in these environments, because you know people that have been abused and stuff you can't say with 100 certainty, yeah, and that tells you how prevalent and how institutionalized this type of abuse and behavior was, is that there's no way that you, that you can't even trust your own memory.

Speaker 4: 42:33

Yeah and that's, but that's what it does is like, because the girl, like all of these girls, like they said in the documentary, like this is the man of power and, like it happens, they're so naive and unaware of what sex is, what their sexual organs are, that they don't know when they've been molested. I think like the Ken's dick story or whatever. I kind of knew about body parts at that point, but I didn't know, what sex was Like in these girls.

Speaker 4: 43:04

They get abused and they get molested and the boys know what they're doing and these girls have no idea. They don't know that they can say no. They don't know why they should say no other than virginity. Is this thing that they have to keep, no matter what, even though they're uneducated about that decision, which I think that they should be educated about that decision? That's what I meant earlier, like you should be educated about that decision. And if you decide to stay a virgin until you're married, good. If you decide not to, okay, that's your decision.

Speaker 3: 43:33

Exactly, the choice is the key. Yeah, Cause I have no problem with anyone, you know, obviously I I come from a more liberal background. When it comes to sex and sexuality, Um and and it's something that you know I have different viewpoints than you know, Dina, on it, but that's fine. The biggest thing that we both agree on is that the choice is what matters. It doesn't matter what like and I'm the same way. I don't care if you wait till marriage. I don't care if you decide to be celibate your whole life. Do whatever you want to do, as long as what you want, yeah, and that not someone else is making that choice for you.

Speaker 1: 44:07

You know, what I mean yeah and in like it, or like telling you you can't have tampons because that's.

Speaker 4: 44:14

I have a tampon story.

Speaker 1: 44:15

It takes that pleasure away from your future husband.

Speaker 3: 44:19

Yeah, please tell us your tampon story, dina. So we're here for tampons.

Speaker 4: 44:22

Um, yeah, I was very much. Um, yeah, I was very much. I hate, I was very much raised where you had to wear pads. That was all you had, and I don't think period underwear had even been invented yet and tampons were going to steal your virginity, cause pleasure, because that body part was for a man's penis only.

Speaker 3: 44:50

Nothing else goes in there.

Speaker 4: 44:50

Devil sticks, I think. I don't think I ever heard that and I think I missed it in the doc, but anyway, um, yeah, I had this friend who I think she had endometriosis. Her flow was like really awful, she was miserable. We were at a um youth event at a river house, um, by one of the rich families that pretends to be poor, and I want my hat back, thank you um give her her fucking hat back.

Speaker 3: 45:16

Guys, give her the fucking hat right now me and sean will fucking find me, fucking find you, fucking find me.

Speaker 4: 45:25

Fucking find you. She wanted to swim and you can't swim if you're wearing a pad. I don't think I never tried. It Sounds like it would be a really bad idea.

Speaker 1: 45:34

I mean, I feel like physically you can, but it's not the best idea. It doesn't physically stop you from getting in the water Like implode, though it's like a little force field. It might not go well for you is all I'm saying.

Speaker 4: 45:49

So she got a tampon. I don't know how, I don't remember how, but like she pulled me into the bathroom and she was like I have this and I want to go swimming and I was like, ah, like you can't have that your husband. Yeah, this one swimming husband, you 16 year old innocent woman who just wants to swim um, and we spent like 30 minutes in the bathroom trying to hype her up to just try to put in a tampon because she was so scared and I was scared for her.

Speaker 4: 46:21

I don't blame her, because we were convinced that we were going to break our hymen and no longer be virgins and what if it did cause? Sexual pleasure, then what?

Speaker 3: 46:31

yeah, what if she just orgasms right fucking there on the floor?

Speaker 4: 46:35

that's gonna be so awkward like what are you?

Speaker 3: 46:36

gonna do in a whole lot of trouble because her mom found the tampon, because she never got to try it or anything, but yeah like can you just imagine, like I just imagine, like this is how like the guy is like, like how the church like pictures, like how this goes down, like it's there, it's the wedding night everyone's waited, it's about to be the big moment. He puts it in. He goes the fuck. This is tampon sized. You're not a virgin. How dare you like so?

Speaker 4: 47:05

also one thing that like I would love to know, because like we're educated and we know science. This has always stuck with me and I got really dirty looks for saying this at a dinner once, um with cult adjacent people and I was like how would he know that she is a virgin? Because, at the end of the day, a woman can fake it. We don't all bleed take those kegels dude so.

Speaker 4: 47:30

But I got really dirty looks and like I wonder how the IFB handled that, because obviously I did not lose my virginity in the IFB with an IFB man. So I wonder how they handled it if, like, a man was expecting blood and there was no blood.

Speaker 3: 47:44

So at least I can tell you, historically, when things of like and I don't know specifically with ifb and I'm just talking about like, like anecdotal things that I've heard from like cultures, like throughout history, is there to be things like women to make sure that they seem like a virgin, on with you know, they have like a little vial that they would break, you know, to make sure that there was like blood on the bed. Um, there's all sorts of different things that, yeah, there's all sorts of things that they would do to at least make it appear, because, again, you know, everyone's body is different. Even someone who's an absolute virgin might not like, you know, yeah.

Speaker 4: 48:20

What that's crazy. People are so fucking uneducated.

Speaker 3: 48:26

Oh yeah, 100%. And like it's always funny to me because it's like people are so fucking uneducated. Oh yeah, 100%. And like it's always funny to me because it's like do they think like a vagina is like memory foam, where, like, as soon as one thing's imprinted, on it. It's like yeah, so, dina, your vagina will never reshape again it is molded only for Timothy's, all of those.

Speaker 4: 48:46

Never mind, that was crossing a line, no, okay.

Speaker 3: 48:50

What Nope. Now I want to know, Dina.

Speaker 4: 48:52

We might have to cut it out. We might have to cut that one out.

Speaker 3: 48:59

God damn it, Dina. Thank you for joining me. We cope with humor.

Speaker 1: 49:03

We cope with humor. Should we talk about bill gothard and the?

Speaker 3: 49:08

the events that kind of led to his dismissal from the organization yes and and listen, I want to dive a little bit before we get into the allegations and stuff. A little bit about what a fucking weirdo this guy's just general life is. Slash was like beyond the religious stuff, like he's not a normal person, which I know feels like an understatement of the year. But like, think about it. Like first of all and that's one of the things I hate about these guys have become these mega fit famous like pastor stuff because we talked about like the, the voice that like the women are supposed to have, and then we talked about how jim bob is always supposed to smile. These guys, whether it's joel austin, whether it's gothard, whether it's that other, who's other satanic looking motherfucker, sean, that uh, oh, I know who you're talking about, yeah, and then he got all crazy about his private jet um kenneth copeland.

Speaker 3: 50:02

There he is, that might be the most evil man in all of existence, but um, they all try to like, have this, like I am both peaceful, wise, but always gentle and happy. They've always got this little smirk on their face and this little let me tell you about the Lord and this whole thing that seems like they have it all together, that they're kind and they're gentle. And this guy, he never married y'all, he didn't marry, he never had kids.

Speaker 4: 50:32

You know, I got a problem. So I got to say this with a little bit of leniency, because my current pastor I have a lot of respect for him and I don't say that lightly, because I don't respect pretty much every pastor that I meet I got a problem with pastors that don't have a wife and kids Mine does not, but I know his background and his story and I respect that. Yeah, but I got a problem with it if they're guiding families and they have no children. Anyway, go ahead.

Speaker 3: 51:01

Yes, Because there's so many things that, especially now that you know, because there's so many things that, especially now that you know you're a parent, you're part of the parent club with us and and it's not, you know, knocking people who aren't parents. I mean, yeah, why do you have children? Um, and it's not knocking people that don't have kids. I mean, listen, dude, there's a lot of common sense, uh, adulting, that you can do even if you don't have kids, about what's right and what's wrong.

Speaker 3: 51:19

But like there's some shit you just don't get unless you're a parent. You know what I mean. Like there's and like to be dictated by a guy that's never had any of that. And like you know, it's one thing if you're a buddhist monk or if you're a catholic and you're dedicated your life to your faith and you're not gonna do anything except for god or whatever, but in the baptism world that's not a requirement, man, that's not even anything that is necessary, like he and he never even tried to say, well, I do this to be closer to god, like he's not even trying to be, like I'm married to jesus type of thing. This motherfucker just wanted zero attachments yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 51:56

And that only leads credence to how much of a creep that this guy was. At the end of it, 30 people came forward. 15 people tried to put a um you know lawsuit together. That fell through because of statute of limitations. But they.

Speaker 1: 52:17

There was a lot of chilling firsthand testimony from women who were formerly a part of these organizations experiences with um bill gothard personally and how they were basically hand selected by him and um he like rooms to believe that their fathers didn't care about them and that he's the only one who loves them. And like would schedule these weird recurring like private prayer sessions where he'd get on the floor with them and like touch them inappropriately in the name of prayer.

Speaker 3: 52:50

Or they'd be driving. They'd be driving and like to be like, oh yeah, whoever's sitting next to him, he might have their hand up, their skirt, oh yeah, and no one like it was just normal.

Speaker 1: 52:58

No one thought it was abnormal for him to do it, cause he's basically. What did they describe? One girl described him as the ultimate celebrity, like God and the Pope and Justin Bieber all rolled into one yeah. So no one's gonna. No one's going to question his authority or his decisions and the arrogance to do that in front of members of your church, let alone in private.

Speaker 4: 53:19

Dude, they get off on it, though, like it's the power thing. When you have that much money, what do you get off on power?

Speaker 3: 53:29

and they talked about that. He was constantly basically just trying to test his boundaries to see at what point people would be like bro, you, you gotta fucking stop. And it took a lot, and that's the thing that you know. You know that there's more victims there's 30 that came forward, 30 that came forward. There's so many more that he silenced that he did Cause, if you knew, he knew what his brother was doing and he was okay with that, he was doing the same fucking shit, dude.

Speaker 1: 53:53

I'm sure he was okay with it because it kind of took the heat off of him so like oh, that's Steve, I'm nothing like him.

Speaker 3: 54:00

And like he got kicked out like seven years before the final kickout, like seven years before the final kick out, but because there was such a big power struggle to get to take his spot, he was able to worm his way back in. His fucking enemies fought each other and he was able to get back in that's exactly what happened with the?

Speaker 1: 54:21

first there was. There was there's. For every like person who makes allegations, there's another 20 or 30 people who are loyal followers and would never believe it or not support their pastor or whatever. Um, and you know, people are roomed to listen to the male authority, room to listen to the male authority and um, he just kind of twisted that into like this is how you react when you've been accused of something you didn't do and like, turned it into a religious lesson instead of taking responsibility for what he was being accused of.

Speaker 3: 55:00

And that's my biggest issue with so much extremism man, and this is any faith, any religion, because the craziest part is, it doesn't matter if you're christian, jewish muslim, when you hit that, my biggest issue with so much extremism, man, and this is any faith, any religion, because the craziest part is, it doesn't matter if you're christian, jewish muslim, when you hit that highest level of extreme, all these practices, all these beliefs are all the same fucking thing. It's all that power over women, it's that control, it's that authority, it's that listen. You know what do they, what they talk about, that you need to listen and just obey immediately, don't question. They want you in this authority structure that if you say jump, you immediately jump to obey, obey, obey triggered I was.

Speaker 4: 55:35

That was literally exactly what I grew up hearing from my parents. My dad, specifically, was if I say, jump you jump, you ask questions later. However, he always taught me to question other authority, like he always said that for him, which I think that you should still question.

Speaker 3: 55:56

But then he. That's the difference, right there.

Speaker 4: 55:58

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 55:59

Is that most people say when I say jump you jump, your dad said when I say jump you jump, I'll explain why after the fact. Yeah, and if a person's not willing to explain why and have a conversation, then that's probably not a good fucking direction I just thought it was interesting that the way that everything finally came crashing down on him was that website. Oh, the falling grace. Recovering grace, recovering grace, yeah yeah.

Speaker 1: 56:27

For, like, basically for people who were negatively affected by IBLP, who, like would go on there and publish articles and like share their story. And then, like, suddenly other victims were finding this and being, like wait a minute, that happened to me. And then that's how that snowballed and like just reminds you about how the church program is designed around completely preventing that from happening.

Speaker 4: 56:54

Silence.

Speaker 3: 56:55

They don't want any. Yeah, that's Matthew.

Speaker 1: 57:00

Daniel asked me to prepare this. Yes, yes. And I thought it was relevant to this this moment a clip from south park.

Speaker 5: 57:10

I specifically didn't watch it in our chat, yep and south park is usually spot on yeah, it is, and that's the sad part no, thank you for finally organizing an all-priest meeting. Father maxi, I think we all agree something has to be done quickly. Well, I don't know how it's been for all of you, but attendance at my church in Fort Rollins is down 63%. I'm down almost 70 in Greenleaf, but, yes, I'm afraid if things keep going the way they are, we could lose our entire religion. Yes, we've got to stop these boys from going to the public. They've got to know how to keep their mouths shut Right. And so, wait a minute what? Yes, but we've got to find out why these children are suddenly finding it necessary to report that they're being molested. Stop the problem at its source. Yes, but how? Yeah, I don't know what Whoa, whoa hold on a second.

Speaker 5: 57:58

The problem is that children are being molested, not that they're reporting it. How do you mean? Well, I mean, obviously, what we need to understand is all the sexual misconduct that is allowed to take place in our churches, not just tell the children, not to tell anybody about it. I mean right, or did any of the children you've molested come forward? No, that's good. No, I mean, I never molested any of the children in my church. It's okay, father Maxie, we're all priests here the doors are closed. My church, it's okay, father maxi, we're all priests here the doors are closed. Or, for the love of god, are you all saying that you've engaged in inappropriate relations with your altar boys? We are here to bring the light of god, not harm the innocent.

Speaker 1: 58:41

I'm serious okay I think that says what it needs to say okay, story time though.

Speaker 4: 58:49

Yeah, please, the second cult that we. We actually got kicked out of the second cult because my dad was um a treasurer. Everybody knows what that is right like. That's a common term okay he was the treasurer and um.

Speaker 3: 59:04

He caught the pastors he hid the treasure for pirates.

Speaker 4: 59:07

Sorry yeah, he's the one who dug the hole and put the x over it, okay um, they were in a meeting with the deacons himself and then I don't think the pastor was present, but he caught a discrepancy in the finances where he was. The pastor was stealing thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars and um, there was also abuse allegations going on at the time that he like kind of threw in there at the same time as the money allegations and everybody in the room said basically exactly what everybody else was like no, no, just don't, we don't report like, we don't talk about it. We got to figure out how to keep it quiet for him.

Speaker 1: 59:42

Nobody finds out about this yeah, it wasn't.

Speaker 4: 59:46

Wow, that's really bad, like he's stealing money out of the pockets of our poor and impoverished congregation. It was no, no, no.

Speaker 3: 59:53

How do we not get?

Speaker 4: 59:54

people to find out.

Speaker 3: 59:56

Like, can you just imagine the first person that's like, like, like, like, I just imagine they were sitting there in the room and they're all like all right, listen, we're fucking up a lot here, guys. There's a lot of bad press, a lot of bad media. How do we fix it? Can we find a bible verse?

Speaker 4: 1:00:12

hey, I remember something from matthew to something, and that's exactly what the ivlp and ifb do yeah they cherry pick verses instead of taking an entire section, which, like I am very adamant as a christian that I will not attend a church that cherry picks verses like we're not doing that shit because it's all taken out of context and used as, like a matthew 218 principle yeah, exactly, and and I'm sitting there and I'm like man, like can you just imagine like you're the guy that's that's supposed to be researching, like all right guys, I need you to find me a loophole in the bible.

Speaker 4: 1:00:40

Let's, let's fucking go do that, though like there are literally meetings of somebody asked me this, help me find a solution, and they just pick one verse out of context yeah, it's something like, oh, yeah, like, not to mention the erasure of women in the KJV version of the Bible, but that's a different story. Oh, 100%.

Speaker 3: 1:01:03

I was so bitter when I found out about that and like, and that's the thing that just is crazy to me, that the solutions like this has become a multi-million dollar operation, 90 million dollars, and they don't actually care about the people, they just don't want the money to stop and it becomes a greed thing. I mean, you know, when they kept on talking about the multiple houses, the planes and stuff, or even you know, in the fourth episode episode they go into, like, meeting paul, you know meeting paul. Yeah, back to paul, back to paul. Uh, meeting bill, like later afterwards. And you know he still lives in this house by himself and he has nothing and no one, but he's still uber prepared for this. You, you know, giant meeting, and it's just, it's horrifying to look at.

Speaker 4: 1:01:49

Maybe it's because I'm poor by the way, you can find my Amazon wish list in this description below I. Maybe it's because I'm poor, but I don't. I cannot wrap my brain around the money seeking behavior. Not because I don't seek money I do, I definitely do. That's. It's my fault. But they have so much money and nothing to do with it. And my thing is like I want money so that I can, I want to take care of my friends, I want to take care of my family and that's what I want to do with it. But they get this money and they just go fine and don't do anything with it and like I don't understand the point.

Speaker 3: 1:02:31

Well, I mean, they've done studies that, in terms of just generalities, people like that are considered in that poor class are more generous with their money than people in the wealthy class. Like they donate higher percentages, they do more charitable works. Percentages, they do more charitable works. And there's definitely something about, once you get to that richness level, that you're there to fucking hoard it like you're a goddamn dragon, like you're fucking smog from lord from. Uh, you know the hobbit. You know you're like, yeah, I just want to sit on my pile of golden influence. Fuck, actually helping people. Like I would have less of. I'd have such a less a problem with these mega churches and these giant things if they actually did, if they put a higher percentage of their money and influence into the community. Like I remember during hurricane katrina wasn't it again our boy, joel austin? They're like, hey, man, we need to like put refugees somewhere. You got this giant church. And he's like, yeah, I'm not go fuck yourself.

Speaker 3: 1:03:24

I'm not opening these doors to the poor.

Speaker 4: 1:03:27

I'm sorry, who I don't know?

Speaker 1: 1:03:30

Jesus, well known for you know making it rain, turning people away if they were in need. Yes, that was Jesus' MO.

Speaker 3: 1:03:37

Jesus was like listen, keep the poor away from me.

Speaker 4: 1:03:42

The poor and the whores. Jesus wanted nothing to do with them.

Speaker 3: 1:03:46

Yep, it's well documented, well documented, well documented and like. And that's the thing is that, again, even gothard, just like his brother, didn't face real consequences. He had to step away. But he's still fucking rich dude, he still has a nice house, he's faced no legal troubles, he's. He probably goes out in public and at least maybe not since this documentary but doesn't even have a fucking problem. Nothing happened to him and you know what.

Speaker 4: 1:04:19

I'm trying to find a way to tie in my segue.

Speaker 4: 1:04:22

I don't have a way to segue this purity culture with men is so different than it is with women too, and that and it really, really bothers me because I just keep replaying in my head those, the girl, that the woman that said, um, she didn't know she could say no, she didn't even know that no was a thing because she didn't know what was happening. And purity culture is pushed on girls so much and no responsibility is given to the man. Gothard has has built this empire. Here's my segue gothard has built this empire around purity culture, where no man is accountable for his virginity and for his actions and his eyes and his brain, but every woman is responsible for theirs. Without knowing what it is, they're responsible for it and yet women have no authority. So why are we responsible for it if we have no authority? Because at the end of the day, no, go ahead, no, no.

Speaker 3: 1:05:25

Because at the end of the day, no, go ahead, no, no, no. Because at the end of the day, like and think about how easy it is, pushed under the rug, like it starts with everything from the eye traps to how you dress and stuff. Because everything about this purity culture, about the sexual repression of women, about this control, again, of women, it's all designed to control, subjugate and keep you guys from having any authority Because they are. I'm sure we can get into a thousand things, but all these things, it all is.

Speaker 3: 1:05:57

Think about how easy it is for the guy to just be forgiven. Man, if a guy has sex. Listen, he strayed. He strayed from the path. He prayed real hard. He's going to do a little bit of work, he's going to be fine. It's not a big deal for this non-virginal man to marry Right, it doesn't even think twice. It's an easily forgiven sin because guess what? Boys will be boys. We know that they're tempted so much more than women. We fucking are fighting back these boners every single day. But, dina, I know that you never want sex. You've never felt any sort of anything in your life.

Speaker 4: 1:06:28

Right? What is turned on? What does that mean?

Speaker 3: 1:06:32

I think has something to do with the light switch. I can't be sure.

Speaker 4: 1:06:35

Electricity yeah, got it.

Speaker 3: 1:06:37

Electricity, yeah, and so all of that is easily forgiven, but you as a woman, if God forbid, maybe you even masturbated one time before marriage. That's unforgivable, dina. That is unforgivable, straight to hell. And like like, think about this, when, when, freaking um, remember when, when, uh, that, when jill talked about how they finally had the ability to say no, and she showed like that brief clip of like what the nasty messages were that maybe, anonymously, was really her dad or someone you know, whatever right dude.

Speaker 4: 1:07:15

What if it was her?

Speaker 3: 1:07:15

mom. But I remember one of the lines that stuck out to me. That was just on like a quick, like brief clip, is it said I gave you an untouched virginal woman and I just thought about that. I was like that is such a degrading, humiliating thing. She has nothing. Her only value is that she has been untouched. I've given you this beautiful, pristine property Is what that text message said.

Speaker 4: 1:07:45

Which is odd how it was phrased, because, okay, I want to say this carefully in the ifb there because there was a little bit of a mind map, but I have to give you a lot of background so that we can be really careful and diligent and respectful about this. So, um, in the ifb there's a full mind map.

Speaker 4: 1:08:04

Sorry, there's a lot of racism right, and especially in the area that I grew up in, right after 9-11, there was a lot of hate against muslims and it was often I often heard that like there, I don't know anything about the muslim religion, so I I very much apologize if I'm saying anything wrong or off kilter or anything. Um, they, they felt like when you get to their heaven, you get like seven or ten virgins, I think, and like that's the ultimate depends on how many you know for a man it can be up to 99 virgins.

Speaker 3: 1:08:40

I don't know, all the specifics.

Speaker 4: 1:08:42

I just know that number can get pretty fucking high okay, all right, well, like, and that when I read, or when I saw that text on the documentary, that's all that I was thinking about was like if this person that is sending this text is from the ifb, we have to look at it from a little bit of a racist standpoint or perspective, where they talk about how, like disgusting it is for the muslim religion to desire to gain these virgins in their heaven, and yet he's talking about presenting one single virginal prize. And I was like now that I'm out, I can look at that and go. You talk shit about Muslims idolizing virgins, and yet here we are. Here you are, I'm not part of it anymore. And you're idolizing virgins. And yet here we are. Here you are, I'm not part of it anymore. And you're idolizing a woman like a prize for her virginity, as though she is worth nothing more. And yet that is how the ifb paints the muslim religion. I was like that's all that stuck in my head when I saw that it's absolute hypocrisy.

Speaker 3: 1:09:46

And think about it like this is that imagine how, how that has to feel. Because, like you know, I've heard stories. Like you know, my mom was a therapist and while she doesn't give like details, she you know, especially if there was like a really difficult case that she just felt like she needed to vent about. Like I'd hear things and I'm sure you've and we've talked a little bit about it in god knows some episode way in the past where there is such a think about for their entire life.

Speaker 3: 1:10:08

Sex is a sin, sexuality is a sin, you have to be virginal, you have to be all this stuff, and then when you get married, you finally have this opportunity to break off the shackles. But how do you deprogram? However many years God, I hope it's at least 18 years of being told this is the worst thing that you can ever do. Do not have sex, do not do any of this, and then you're allowed to do it. How are you able to make that switch in your mind and then think about how your virginity was the most important thing in your life and then, even though you've had sex with your husband, you no longer have it. You've been devalued, at least in this Christian thing.

Speaker 4: 1:10:48

So, okay, all right, I'll give you some personal perspective on this one, two parts. Let's hold on to the second part that you just said about how you no longer have it and that's all that you had. So when I got married, I was no longer IFB. When I got married and Tim is one of the people that helped me start to gain that verbiage of cult, because even when I got out, I still was like not really accepting of the term- Because I was like it's just a weird church.

Speaker 4: 1:11:16

But no, it's a cult, it's not a church. And he was not IFB and, without delving into too much detail, to respect him. It was very difficult for us in the beginning because I had been told my whole life that, you know, don't have sex, don't have sex, we don't want sex, we don't want sex, we're not. Nothing is attractive, nothing turns you on. All of that. So it is a very difficult start to a marriage, especially for a man that didn't wait till he was married and had sex with other women and then I was a virgin. That was a very difficult transition. It takes a lot of communication and, like two people being very, very open to communicating, you have to just lay it all out there and have no shame. And I got very lucky with who I married because he was very accepting and willing to work through everything.

Speaker 4: 1:12:08

The second part so what the IFB and Christians will tell and I say and Christians, because I don't think this is exclusive to the IFB, it might be Um, but when you no longer have your virginity, if you lost it through marriage, you're not devalued because you don't have it. You're still a virgin, you're still pure. Yeah, so you're still pure. You're not devalued because you don't have it. You're still a virgin, you're still pure. Yeah, so you're still pure. You're not still a virgin. You're still pure because you lost it under the umbrella of marriage.

Speaker 3: 1:12:37

So they don't get devalued because of that you say that, but think about this what happens if you're a widower?

Speaker 4: 1:12:44

or sorry, right, yeah and that is something that like is very problematic, it happens a lot. And like widower or sorry, right yeah, and that is something that like is very problematic, it happens a lot. And like widower remarried like what does that mean?

Speaker 3: 1:12:54

And no matter what you are still considered to be, you were married once. Even though you did everything the right way, right, you were still. You're still not quite as new and shiny as you could have been. Yeah, and I think that that was part of like like. The more I heard about gothard, the more I just realized that this was a dude with a very specific kink that got put into a very high position of power because he obviously loved fucking the purity and virgins. Everything that you hear, at least from the documentary, was it was over the shirt, maybe it was under the dress, it was touching, it was doing all these things and he wanted the most virginal, pure girls that he could get and that was his kink. And it almost even reminded me a little bit of like you know those stories of gandhi where he said that hey, listen, I'm not, you know, I'm not taking a wife, I'm not, you know, doing this stuff.

Speaker 3: 1:13:38

I've not heard these stories of gandhi was gandhi a bad guy uh, not necessarily a bad guy, but he made some very questionable decisions when it came to sexuality stuff. There's very famous stories about how he would lie naked in bed with his naked, uh, either cousin or niece, and he wouldn't do anything with them. But that was how he tested his resolve and tested his um a purity, his ability to resist.

Speaker 4: 1:14:03

Fuck, not castrate him.

Speaker 3: 1:14:05

Yeah yeah, and and and that is to me felt very gothard-esque where I'm sure that there was worse. That just isn't reported and I god knows, I don't know what actually happened, but at least from the, the testimonies that we have, it feels like a guy that that would try to push his boundaries as much as he could and it's just fucking sick stuff because, again, like it's such a weird thing to devalue or de-rationalize someone just because, whether they're virgins or not, and even if they do things the right way, you're no longer seen the same way. You're now the married woman, you know, yeah yeah, I get that anyways, guys and and and so like.

Speaker 3: 1:14:48

There's a lot of stuff that goes into it and a lot of you know the biggest thing that they talk about is, you know, because I do want to, you know, kind of move forward from this in a second. But you know, the sexual abuse and sexual assault stuff that happened in the IFB is so much more than just Gothard or Gothard's brother or you know, some of these level things I mean they talk about at these church camps that, oh, you know, my leader would just fall into my bed, like you said. She didn't know, she could say no, and it's rampant everywhere in this culture. And that's the thing that, just as a father to a daughter, man like it, terrifies me that there is such a big movement going forward with no oversight, no checks and balances, and that these people are trying to influence every level, whether it's government, schools, stuff like that, and that they can push this agenda that they claim to be pure but it doesn't. It gets rid of responsibility. Right, it is me until God told me to do this right it is me.

Speaker 4: 1:15:53

Until god told me to do this, god was telling me, uh, calling me dude, you're scared with your daughter and you're not even adjacent to said culture. I'm a christian still and there are a lot of like. I don't typically associate with baptist. You're gonna be hard pressed to find me associate with anybody ifb, iblp, southern baptist you're gonna be very hard pressed to find me associating. But I'm still a christian and I'm raising a boy close to that culture and I am terrified and every single day I wake up and I have to diligently seek to teach him just the Bible, not all of that bullshit, man-made religion, because I will not support him and tolerate any of that behavior in him.

Speaker 3: 1:16:43

Yeah, and that's the biggest thing that and I'm with you on that, and I think that's the biggest thing is that preach responsibility, preach accountability. If you're a man, be a fucking man and protect others. Don't abuse others. Don't use these cheap tricks or hide behind religion so that you can do this shit, man. Like we need to start teaching men to be responsible for themselves and their actions. Like you're not an animal. Like you're not an animal, You're not an animal. Just because you might get a little aroused doesn't mean that you have fucking carte blanche. Do whatever the fuck you want to people and just be like. Oh, that's just, boys will be boys, you can't help it. And like I think that that's the biggest thing that lacks in all of that is there's a lack of responsibility, a lack of accountability.

Speaker 4: 1:17:28

And that perpetuates this behavior? Yeah, it does sad.

Speaker 3: 1:17:32

So, sean, do you have any any final kind of thoughts and shots, because I know that this is probably a tough one for you too, because you're also a father, you know, have a daughter as well as a father.

Speaker 1: 1:17:40

It is a difficult thing to learn about and to hear about, but I, I find that it's I don't know I I I'm able to kind of disconnect myself from it in an emotional way, in ways that I didn't like expect. I think I've seen enough of these shitty documentaries. Like the documentary is good, obviously. I mean like shitty situations portrayed in documentaries that like I've I've kind of become desensitized to it.

Speaker 1: 1:18:09

Um kelly and I watch a lot of like murdery crimey like true crime stuff and like just after a while it's just like you just go numb from all the horribleness. And it's just like when it has to specifically to do with young women, it is harder and I want to do my best to um be a positive male role model so that my kid knows how a man should act and and like going off of that.

Speaker 3: 1:18:46

I mean you know sometimes like we joke around about how, as men, how low the fucking bar is in 2024. As a soccer coach, I coach girls and my bar is just don't be fucking creepy to them, don't abuse them, don't groom them. That's how low the bar is. That's how low our expectations are, because in any of these positions of power, whether it's religious organization, I mean, there's issues with the bar is that's how low our expectations are, because in any of these positions of power, whether it's religious organization, I mean, there's issues with the gymnastics, national gymnastics program. All these people, if they're given an instant of power, immediately turn around to abuse women, and all you have to be to be a good fucking person is not do what is basic human decency do what is basic human decency?

Speaker 4: 1:19:31

and like I got it like that's, that's your, that's the bar over general, but your goal is to protect them and be a good role model right, oh god, yes, okay, yes, god, yes.

Speaker 3: 1:19:37

But I'm just saying like that's how low the standards have gotten and I appreciate that. That's how low the standards are. Like I got like I, you know, I work at a, you know, at a place where, like I have, you know, college girls that like are like work for our program. Like I had a compliment the other day and like in the moment, like I got it and then I started thinking about it and it kind of like it was such a nice compliment but it also kind of like made me sad for like what the state of society was. I had a counselor tell me that I was safe. I had a counselor tell me that I was safe, that she viewed me, and I know that you've said, similar to both me and Sean, that you view us like family, that we are safe individuals.

Speaker 1: 1:20:13

That means everything to me.

Speaker 3: 1:20:15

Yes, yeah, I think you're both safe. The greatest compliment that these people feel comfortable enough with me as a person, that being safe is important to them, that matters to them, and it was one of the nicest things that anyone's ever said to me but the fact that that needs to be a compliment, the fact that we're at a place now where that's not just the status quo, where that's not just the given, that that's something that oh my gosh, this is like a pleasant surprise. You stand out because I feel you are safe. Like that hurt not me, but just hurt that this is a life that this girl has to live, that a lot of these girls have to live, that that is something that they look for, that they seek because of how prevalent abuse is in society, and that was hard to think about when I started walking down.

Speaker 3: 1:21:08

That yeah, like, like. Like you said, how many people outside of your dad did you feel you were safe with growing up? That were men one.

Speaker 1: 1:21:19

It was his best friend and unchecked power can lead to people who are supposed to make people feel safe exploit that and push it till it all blows up. Yeah, so the next time we talk about this will be the final chapter of the series and you can have a little bit of a retrospect about all of the feels and all of the horrible traumas that were making Dina relive. Thank, you. Dina. So stay tuned for that.

Speaker 4: 1:21:57

You guys want to see how the IFB taught us to Deadass serious, how they taught us to practice our smiles.

Speaker 3: 1:22:04

Yes, please.

Speaker 4: 1:22:05

So you gotta puff out your gum a little bit, so you gotta tongue right there and then you gotta pinch, cheek, cheek, cheek and then teeth together and you never drop it.

Speaker 1: 1:22:17

I feel like a little lean back, yeah, and the, the chin kind of falls right into place. Yeah, jesus, that's yeah, and you can talk about everything and nobody ever like notices that it's.

Speaker 4: 1:22:28

It's fake as fuck god damn it.

Speaker 1: 1:22:31

That does work. That I'm gonna notice when you do that smile. Yeah, yeah now off screen.

Speaker 3: 1:22:36

We have to check if dean is pinching your cheeks.

Speaker 4: 1:22:38

Like every time, daniel makes me uncomfortable, you have to pinch your cheeks, and then that's what yeah, so next time we talk about this it'll be the final chapter.

Speaker 1: 1:22:49

It'll go into post gothard era, um, and uh, more disturbing shit with josh duggar and um, how political power has been amassed, um by these fundamentalists, uh, nationwide.

Speaker 3: 1:23:06

Yeah, so that'll be awesome when we're ready to drink more moonshine and feel sad. We will do another cult episode, but thankfully next week our guest is not part of a cult, wrote an incredible book and will not bum us out the whole time yeah.

Speaker 4: 1:23:22

Canada like a cult.

Speaker 3: 1:23:25

Oh, of course it's not a real country.

Speaker 1: 1:23:26

It's America's hat.

Speaker 3: 1:23:29

They're just bullshit. All right, dana, we don't abide Canadians here, unless you're, jess. I miss you, jess, I love you.

Speaker 4: 1:23:35

We have a Canadian coming on next week.

Speaker 1: 1:23:38

Just for the record, jess didn't die. Also, daniel did not get that connection at all. Yes, abby Simpson, the author of the dragon and the butterfly, will be joining us next week, our first author interview of this season. And boy are we excited.

Speaker 3: 1:23:57

Yeah, I just want to ask her what she puts maple syrup on. I assume everything like, not just food, like I just assume that she doesn't put it on, I think that's a good question.

Speaker 4: 1:24:05

Yeah, that's my that's my big.

Speaker 1: 1:24:16

Just if you guys notice in the background for sean um jill is doing the ifb smile, you can spot it. Actually, I'm sorry, I meant to mostly cover them up the whole time, you know, since they're supposed to be in the background. Yeah, it's supposed to be seen behind the men. Yeah, um, like the strong man should be in front and then like they should just be kind of be in the background, smiling and being silent yeah, yeah isn't that the rule. I'm sorry, I'm trying to learn.

Speaker 3: 1:24:36

Also, on a side note, I loved that, like these people were just so like, hungry for just normal human interaction that literally 30 days from her wedding night, she had her first kid. Like she was deep, she was dtf, she was ready that's not how it went down.

Speaker 1: 1:24:52

I guarantee you all right so if you guys have a uh an opinion on any of this, if you want to ask dina a question about her experience in this cult, if you want to shame daniel for being inappropriate all give us a call. What's the phone number?

Speaker 3: 1:25:08

daniel it's 347 69 weird, that's 347 699 3473. God, I was really inappropriate this episode, guys.

Speaker 1: 1:25:22

I'm so sorry you're gonna get fired. I cut most of it, don't worry yeah, thank you, sean.

Speaker 3: 1:25:26

Can you just play the sorry soundtrack real quick for me?

Speaker 1: 1:25:29

no, can you ask us where people can find us on social media, so we can get the fuck out of here I?

Speaker 4: 1:25:34

think sean's hungry.

Speaker 1: 1:25:35

I asked you to wrap it up. Literally 20 minutes ago, I asked you to wrap it up I have two kids I've been bad at rap.

Speaker 3: 1:25:41

I've been bad at wrapping it up for a long time, uh you can find me on twitter at dinosaurus d. That's d like d nuts sean, where can the folks find you?

Speaker 1: 1:25:52

you can find me on twitter at chase. Hold you, what are you having for dinner? Unclear, it's. It's gonna be. It's gonna be a leftover scavenger hunt no time.

Speaker 3: 1:26:02

Uh, you can find me on. Dan q writes in this.

Speaker 4: 1:26:04

Dan q writes things singular he still talks in slow motion, even when he's talking fast. No time, that was so slow.

Speaker 3: 1:26:12

There's no time, dina. We don't have time for this, for quality, you can find me. We have to get out of here, correct?

Speaker 4: 1:26:21

I need followers. Amazon wishlist in the description.

Speaker 1: 1:26:26

Follow us on threads. Love you all.

Speaker 3: 1:26:27

Jazz hands, jazz hands.

Speaker 4: 1:26:30

I don't know why I was about to click close.

Speaker 1: 1:26:35

Don't make it weird With Daniel Quigley, dinosaurus and Sean Holden, produced and edited by me. Sean Holden Theme song by Amaria, incidental music and sound effects provided by Voice Mod, as well as the YouTube audio library. You can rate and review this show on Spotify, apple podcasts, good pods and wherever else you download your podcasts. Got a question for Daniel or Dina? Call the don't make it weird Hotline at three four seven 69 weird. That's three four seven six nine nine. Three four seven 699-3473 and leave us a message. It could be featured on a future episode and if you haven't already, please subscribe to Don't Make it Weird on YouTube for the video presentation or on your favorite podcast app for the audio-only version of the show. Thank you so much and we love you, don't make it weird.

Speaker 4: 1:27:27

Was that okay?