Welcome to our podcast. My name is Kealy Severson and I'm here with Alicia Swamy and Erik Johnson and together we are Exposing Mold. Today we are interviewing May Dooley. Welcome May.
May Dooley:Thank you, it's nice to be with you. I am a bit familiar with some of the services that you offer you do some mold sampling for people in the mold injured community. Could you tell us more about your work? Yes, I started this work before mold was known to the public in 1994. In fact, my accountant had just said, I think you better look for a job. And the big lawsuit in Texas put mold on the map and that was around 2000. And I've been in it ever since. But the way I started, I had a course of study that dealt with more than mold, that dealt with gas leaks, electromagnetic fields, and so on. But the way I started with mold was with a microscope. I'm a former science teacher so I'm aware of a microscope, although I have had to teach myself because there were an are no classes on studying mold in houses. I've put up information from a microscope standpoint, I should say that, of course, I put up information on a new website, because I've come to the conclusion that people have to do it for themselves. They've got to take responsibility for their own lives because the industry is geared towards other things such as lawsuits. So I started off by my first inspection, I brought tapes back to look at under the microscope. The second inspection, I said, Well, if I were back at the house, I would sample a few other areas. And I said, Well, why don't a bring the microscope to the house. So that's what I did. And I've been doing it ever since for almost 25 years, I'm bringing a microscope to the house. I guess we have less time these days because there's so many other things to look at. We do so many samples in the house, 40 to 60 samples, but they're studied in house, because I find with when you have to send things to a lab, you can't do enough samples, the lab fees just add up too much. So these are all studied in house, there is one lab that I recommend, and I'll tell you about that in a minute. But things led from one thing to another. As I learned more about where mold grows in houses, I developed a list of the the routine places to check. For example, could there ever have been a toilet overflow, and could mold be in the water, sorry, in the wall cavity? You it's fairly easy to check that out, you can take a putty knife, put clear tape around it, slide the putty knife, but under base molding, look under the microscope, you need to see mold, or you don't see mold, which is a clue about that. I work with culture pipe air samples, could there be mold behind for example, finished walls in a basement, just go to an outlet and stick the sampler up at the outlet bang on the wall and take your sample. And you pretty much get a clue as to what's going on behind the walls. Now a little bit of mold can get a lot of spores. So it's not definitive of how much mold is in the wall cavity. But it's a clue that it's worth pursuing. As I went on, and incidentally, I have the list of where to check in the house. If you were wanting to do do my check, and I'll just briefly review them for you. But on the websites, I have the three websites, "Teach Yourself Environmental Home Inspecting, because I'm trying to pass on to individuals, what they can do on their own and maybe somebody will field the call and start in this business themselves. There's so few out there using a microscope and it's the cheap tool to find something that's often invisible. You can look and it looks perfectly clean and have high mold. So I've had different clients who have walked around microscopes and have had worked with the master list of pictures that I provide on the website. I'm all for do it yourself and empowerment, former eighth grade science teacher, and I want to see people that can learn and carry on on their own without inspectors and lab fees and so on. And then I give you a list there. So if I went into a house, I would think what the question is that you want to answer. A lot of people go for the spot on the wall or on the piece of wood, and that's what they sample on the spot on the windowsill. Those are not the questions to ask, they're oftentimes they're just maintenance items, go wipe it off, put a little borax on a sponge and wipe off the mold on the windowsill that's just common quite a story. And it grows whenever there is condensation on the refrigerator gasket on air conditioning coils, which incidentally is why one reason why UV light is not that effective, other than the speed at which the air expands. But any black molds have melanin in them which protect them from sunlight, so and sunlight has the UBC. So putting UV light on the mold can just laugh at the UV light, it's protected against it. So the process I would check where does the water go inside same cabinet see sample inside them under base molding around water. I mentioned the toilet already. I would also check it by the dishwasher, by the refrigerator on the sill plates, and exterior doors under common walls with showers if you can't get into the shower access. Other places that mold might grow are in the basement because it's a damper area. With three tapes, I can pretty much diagnose a basement, unfinished basement, take on ceiling joints, the tape on sub flooring, and a tape onto the bottom step. Those are the places where mold would grow and contents, I can do a composite sample touching the tape to all the furniture in one room and looking under the microscope and seeing if there's mold growth there. Here are the big questions, where is mold and where isn't it, the spot might might tell you something, there are different patterns of mold growth in an attic. If they're not enough ventilation, you might find mold growing up where rafters meet the roof decking that would be Aspergillus, that might be a remediation project. Although I have had clients that have had Do It Yourself approaches and that which I'll talk about a little later. It's just important to know where mold isn't as know where it is. So I would sample that's why we call them controls on what is the control area, it shows whether you need to remediate the whole basement or just a spot. So those are pretty important things. So that that led to talking more and more with with homeowners and renters. And I would find people that are interested in this type of service, this type of exploration, they either live too far away from me, or more than likely, they just couldn't afford an inspection. So I did an in house modest fee review of tapes under the microscope, people send me tape samples, and I look in and give them a little record that there is more than there isn't where there isn't mold. And I'm giving them the guidelines of these 20 or so places to check that they can find the mold. And many times I've said when your area, if you are having an inspection, you may not have an inspector who uses a microscope. So you can augment the inspection by just sending me the tape samples and having them do the the return test and site. So that's kind of the way my business developed. I did say there was one lab that I do recommend. And that's for the air conditioning system. A lot of inspectors do a tape sample on coils or take a look and they see some cladosporium and they think that's something the air conditioning system is bigger fish to fry with the air conditioning system. I do recommend a test with the same technology of the ERMI test but it does more for less money. So I'm always in favor of that next, a test by a Assured Bio Labs. The website is a assuredbio.com and it's The Big 2 test. You click on to do it yourself DIY tests and go to The Big Two and the $85 version. So I would swab on the underside of a supply vent and that gives us a clue as to what's coming down stream. We take the the mold species that are included, you get a genius scan for Aspergillus Penicillium, that means it scans for 100 species compared to fewer than 20 with ERMI, and two with HERTSMI, so 400 was about the best you're gonna get on that. And then I also add in the three species that are water loving, which would point to a drainage issue, or a humidifier gone bad with the AC system. So we have Stachybotrys, Trichoderma, and Chaetomium, and then cladosporium, of course, which is the most common in air conditioning systems. Based on those results, again, it's just a clue, because there are many variables when you're doing a swab sample. And when you're working with somebody's air conditioning, supply vents, it might give us numbers that are so high that we know that something going on. And if there's something going on routine, cleaning is not going to get to the source, because the source is likely to be in the air handler and it's not accessible to a duct cleaner. So it probably would mean that you'd want to change out the air handler grand $1,500. If so, and and then clean the rest of the ductwork. If you have duct work that flex duct and the numbers are pretty, pretty high, then then you have an issue that might have to be changed out because flex duct cannot be adequately cleaned, if it has many mold particulates in it. That's kind of an overview of my service. And then we also because it's not always molded to scan for other things as well. And this is all written up again, free information. And what were some low cost equipment that you can use on your own at home. It's written up at the teachyourselfenvironmentalhomeinspecting.com. I'll tell you a quick little story, townhouse 100 year old townhouse that I inspected. So the guy knew that his symptoms were related to the townhouse. He didn't have them outside. He had them inside brain fog, couldn't sleep, headache. Those were the three big ones. So mold. So we have mold remediation done, symptoms didn't change. And what I did was what he did, he found me somehow and called and he said, I think I need a microscope. There's mold here that hasn't been found. So I came down 100 year old townhouse that's usually low risk for mold, because it was renovated, because of the old wood is not as conducive to mold growth as the new wood, the softer wood products. I didn't find any mold. In fact, I'm not so sure you needed the remediation to begin with. So I said, Well, it's not mold, maybe it's gas leaks, I check for gas leaks, nothing, not all the gas leaks or formaldehyde. No. And then I went back to him and I said turn off your modem, which was maybe seven feet from where he was sitting, turned it off the pressure in his head off. And he called me in the next week, he said my symptoms are gone. I can sleep, no headaches, and I can think and and it was the EMFs in that case. I remember being at a conference on mold with Eckhart Johanning some of you may remember that name from he does assessments of people that have been damaged by mold. And speaking with a woman from Canada to one of the second sessions. And I said this a dozen instances of research projects that have confirmed increase of the permeability of the blood brain barrier in the presence of electromagnetic fields, and I said mold gases. Now remember, Erik, you wrote something about some of your worst exposures years ago, where mold gases, that's a big one. And she said, you'll never hear anything like that here. She said, in America, you measure, in Canada we help people, and I have taken that to heart, my company just to help people to listen and make suggestions, not only for what can be corrected, but what does a healthy house look like? And keep it simple, keep it simple, a lot of things that you can do on your own to make things better, and so on. So, that's kind of the evolution of my business. And it's not something that I work as an expert witness. I'm not skilled in that area. If somebody has a lawsuit, I'll refer them out to someone else. This is for information for the client only, on site information, they in fact we have a social event, when we have an inspection like yesterday I was at a house and the woman was took the radio frequency machine and she found the sources of radio frequency, found high levels was at her child's of sleeping area, and was able to trace it down what was going on the sources happened to be the television, which could have been unplugged, the modem, of course, and a wireless printer. And then her husband was doing the air samples, I was doing the tape samples. And then we switched when those things were done, and they did the vacuum cleaner and sample for bacteria in drinking water while I was going down and checking for gas leaks. And they learned so much more that way. And we can cover more territory in less time. But it's still six to seven hours at an average house. So it's a real community project, and a lot of fun, go up in the work, not bad findings come through your house, it sounds so much fun. But they have tools for the rest of their lives with healthy home one on Thank you for that explanation May, I can really appreciate one. that you care to offer lower cost sampling services for people who just need verification that they could be exposed to something that's causing their illness, because mold illness doesn't seem to be widely understood or widely accepted. I think just having access to be able to verify that mold is in your house and it could in fact be affecting your health for not a cost of $7,000 or $13,000. I think that could really help a lot of families who who have water damage, and they have kids with PANS or autoimmune conditions or other family members that are sick and may and they're saying, could there be mold here? Could this be making me sick, and then some of these inspections can be so high end, that it's not really a practical starting point when people just need to know, just have a simple verification. So thank you for offering that service and making some of this information more accessible to families who are obviously in great need. I'm sure Alicia and Erik are going to have some questions about your services so I'm going to just hand it over.
Erik Johnson:Well, lately the CDC has been focusing on Aspergillus Versicolor, do you have any experience with that?
May Dooley:It's very, very common, buddy, you whatever the mold is, because there's so much they don't know about mold. Aim for zero tolerance with mold growth in a house. And my sense is if you make the environment unfriendly to mold, you're also making it unfriendly to the rest of its cousins, the bacteria, the actinomycetes and so on. How do you make the environment unfriendly to mold? Well, we start in the basement, and I'm a big proponent, I have been ever since I learned about, began to learn about mold. I can remember saying when I took the original mold inspector course just to have a credential on that even though I've been mold inspector for some years by that point, I said if I had research money, the first place I put it, in terms of prevention is encapsulation nd coatings, what can you put on wood to keep mold from growing, because we're building our houses with something that moldy. And so I've been a big proponent of the sealant at the end, either as a precaution, or at the end of the job. Let's say in the basement, it builds a new house, I tell people paint every square inch of wood down here. And if it's not a new house, and it probably has some mold, because it would be a minor, if you don't have some mold in a basement, then we basically kind of make a judgment. Is this a homeowner's Do It Yourself job or is it a remediation job? And I have a great deal of respect for mold, or 1000s of stories over the years to and some people are just super, super super sensitive, and that people have to leave everything. Not everybody is on that level. I went to a mold doctor that you would know the name years ago and was told based on my genetic it's better that I'm the last person that should be a mold inspector. No, but it's not always the kiss of death. Your immune system may be strong enough. My issue before I went to him was mercury toxicity from silver amalgams and once I detoxed from that, got rid of the silver amalgams. My headaches left, I got my ambition back. And I'd gone to a mold doctor nowadays with that complaint of course it would have been mold. No, but it wasn't. It was the mercury toxicity. And he said that once you your body is stronger and your immune system is stronger, or you'll be able to handle the other things and that proved to be the case. I'm smart enough to know that it's not good to live amongst mold and other pollutants and have a healthy home, but it's not always removed, I just lost my train of thought where we're going with that left me about the encapsulations. Yeah, so if it's not a if it's not a real bad situation where, where you have visible mold, etc. And and I'll tell you two, two ways to kind of determine that as a homeowner. And then then maybe it's a do it yourself job. So here's what I would do for a homeowner, let's say you look up at your basement ceiling joists, and you've seen some discoloration. One thing is to touch it with a clear tape, hold the tape up to the light and see what you see. If you see nothing, it might just be a stain. If you see crumbly stuff, it might just be dirt or something. If you see a film, then it could be mold. Another thing you can do is take a flashlight and hold it right against the wall. And it will in parallel with the wall. And then you can better see fuzz sticking up on the wall. So couple of things, if it's not a big area, and you think you can handle this yourself, just get some good bottle of 12% hydrogen peroxide on Amazon for $12-$15 and spray it that'll just make the mold to stall if it's just a few areas. And then you could do your paint every square inch of the basement step because if you see some spots, it's probably low levels of mold elsewhere. I know that this is a controversial issue and in the mold circles, painting. But number one, you want to protect vulnerable surfaces. So painting will protect them. And what if you cover some mold, the paint has melted inside and it will kill the mold. I've heard for 25 years among could grow back you have to scrape it off, you have to stand it off. You have to wipe it off, whatever. I've never seen that happen, and it just just paint over it and be done with it. Now then the question will come well, aren't you scattering mold particulates? And tell you about a and the answer, of course is to some degree, yes. So you want to handle these areas as gently as possible. I want to tell you about a story, that little experiment that a client of mine did. So I did the inspection we found mold on the surface of one room. And it was big enough that it was a remediation job. So she hired the remediator. And we knew that there was going to be some cross contamination because it was it was a surface mold and had been going on for a while. So the remediated said, really should have this whole house and they quoted a few $1,000 to do it. So she and I talked and she decided she wanted to try it yourself to know if it's gonna work but you want to try it yourself. So she did this big to test and her numbers for Aspergillus Penicillium like the room right next to the remediated room. They were like 52,000 I mean, they were up there. This isn't spores. Of course, this technology gives you this technology gives you the spore equivalent, so before it dries out, disintegrates into 50 little pieces, it counts as 50 on the PCR test on the ERMI test or on the big two test. So this woman got her readings that Stachybotrys readings worth 5000 and the AsPen I think I said somewhere around 50 to 62,005 in private readings, you would really think that you need to have this room remediated. So she did four rooms, and they all showed elevations. And her cleaning was not what you would think would be needed. She hired a commercial cleaning company because they had ladders, and she gave them extendable mops and some spray to put on so they went up and down the walls and the ceiling, got that done. And then she came in and she said I don't think they even had a HEPA vacuum cleaner. This is this is heresy. And then she came in with perfect hair, her hair but she didn't have a fancy one. It's just a basic chart. And she did the final cleaning and then she waited a bit and then she retested the numbers were amazing. I mean, I wouldn't have guessed this. They went for Aspen they went from 52,000 down to 180. Stachybotrys went from 5000 down to non detect, and there were two rooms were excellent like that two rooms weren't so good. And when we talked about the two rooms that weren't so good, she realized what she had done wrong. She had not cleaned the tops of window frames. And and yet she forgot that she had To clean them, so she went and retested them. So two of the rooms had some old does included in the readings. And and it was a lesson means two lessons here one lesson is to give hope to people what their claimed their own cleaning can accomplish. And the second lesson is how much a small area of old dust can skew the record numbers. And that was a lesson because where are we told to sample with the Army test of dust on the refrigerator on top of the on top of window frames and so on. One of my clients who's mold literate was looking for a home. And he sampled, he did ERMI's on 25 houses, and he's not choosing crappy houses. He thought these were all good and the ERMI tests failed on 24 of the 25. And the only one that passed with new construction. So that tells you that these tests can be useful, but we need to understand what we're getting and where to sample with them. So that was once a lesson. So she just went back and had to reclean her, her window frames and she should be good to go. So she saved yourself some 1000s of dollars. She's said that remediator had wanted 3000 to clean the house and she ended up paying 300 between the other ones and and then I also had another fellow now this was an unused attic. So it wasn't such a it wasn't it wasn't a living area. They didn't store things up there. There was no HVAC up there. And he decided he was going to address the Aspergillus himself. And he sent me before and after pictures which are posted on the website. So he used 9% Hydrogen Peroxide, he bought himself a gallon of 27% at a swimming pool supply store$25, cut it down to 9% two to one dilution and sprayed it directly on the mold. I mean, this mold was like not much mountainous this was not not very happy mold up there. And it disappeared, there was a white stain left behind. And he showed me those pictures before and after. And he said his next step he was going to paint it and he was done. I mean, he saved himself 1,000s of dollars on an attic remediation. Is there mold in mold spores in the insulation. Of course there are I mean, he wasn't doing a remediation level cleaning, but it was a good enough cleaning for an unused space that most likely was not having health effects for him. And, and it will it met his needs that would meet everybody's needs met his needs. So it's just like you said Kealy before the people out there have have just been so in many cases traumatized by by the mold, illness and doctor bills and, and the inspection fees and everything and, and we're just trying to give them alternatives. It's not always the Rolls Royce alternative, it might be the do it yourself one. But if you can't do what you must, you must do what you can and try to give information in the way that is the most practical and safe for folks aswell, and not everybody can do this. I mean, I just want to underline that if if you are really really sensitive, be careful on on your approach, you may need professional remediation. And I want to speak a minute about that too. I remember being on the phone with one client and she had moved to a healthier place after being in a moldy place. And she was very, very sensitive. Somebody, her friend brought in a box of something from the old place and unwisely opened it in front of her, and within minutes she had lost her ability to speak, and she was on the floor in convulsions. So we have to have a great deal of respect for these particles. As Dr. Shoemaker has taught us, many of them are inflammagens and especially with Stachybotrys, whatever we're reacting to there, we have to take that that seriously because people can lose their homes in their their possession. So with that, but I put this decision of how to approach your house on a triangle. I can give data into your situation, you may have the money to follow the data, you may not have it, and the doctors input, I don't know your immune system status and your health and putting all those three together try to find an approach that gives you peace of mind and it's the best for your family and your circumstances and your health.
Erik Johnson:Well lately Dr. Shoemaker is telling me that my focus on Stachybotrys was all a mistake. The problem is actinomyces and not Stachybotrys and I probably know should have looked into it at all?
May Dooley:Well, I can, I will tell you the quick little story I am mold sensitive of maybe every two or three years, I get a wallop from somebody's house. So this woman had one of these corner kitchen sink cabinets, it's hard to crawl in there and get to the back. And I'll do it for you. She said, I noticed the mold in the back of, I'll take a tape sample and go in there, which he did. And I wasn't thinking to say if it's visible mold, just do the work. Don't disturb the mold. So she came back with two square inches of Stachybotrys on the tape. And I felt that my lungs for the next two weeks, and it's like my lungs burned so I you don't have to convince me that it's an issue with that mold.
Erik Johnson:But you heard my story, haven't you?
May Dooley:I have.
Erik Johnson:Well, that's basically what I did. When I wanted to find out specifically what mold was doing this to m, is I took a tape lift of Stachybotrys, took it out to the desert, and that alone could recreate my symptoms, just exactly as you say.
May Dooley:Yeah, yeah. For actinomycetes. I heard another lab director saying, Well, we have those on our bodies. So I don't know I don't I don't get into a lot of testing because if you change the environment, you've dealt with all those things. I do point out two sources of actinomycetes can be one is cool mist humidifiers, don't use them at all, go to either one mist or steam humidifiers, if you have to have a humidifier, and the other can be air conditioning systems. And I think that that is a neglected area in the mold industry, the AC, those are the lungs of the house. And we need to set them up in a way that they are self sustaining. Tell you what I recommend, I've already talked about the how to test them, and how to keep the how to deal with the air handler if that has to be changed out. So let's say you've cleaned it, you've tested it, and it's ready to go. It's in good shape. Now. How do you keep it in good shape? And how do you deal with another issue that's very, very important and I find it almost every house. And that's elevated carbon dioxide, not enough oxygen in the house, need for ventilation. So the idea is to do pressure, positive pressure. So we work with Aprilaire mostly because they're industry leaders in this area. I don't work with them, I recommend them to my clients. So you would if you envision a dehumidifier next to your H vac system, you have a tube coming from a duct coming from the outside it brings in fresh air and filters it, dehumidifies it and then it passes it by another duct into the return area of your air conditioning. So now you have filtered dehumidified fresh air coming through your system out every duct and you have the whole system dehumidified. So you're not going to get future mold growth. And that sets up your your unit in your house for filtered, conditioned, dehumidified air. It's about the best we know. And then I tell people you go to your HVAC company and say that you want this. And they say Oh, you don't need that, HRV is better, heat recovery ventilator and and it's cheaper to run, gives you better air exchange. Well, those things are true. But the problem with it is it doesn't dehumidify fresh air coming in. So you get mold growth in the ductwork. No and that is not widely known. So we don't recommend HRV for that reason, they can fix that problem well and good. But any fresh air coming into your house should be to dehumidified or you're you're asking for a higher risk of mold growth.
Erik Johnson:Okay, I'm curious about something. You mentioned that you got a certification from the original mold inspector, was that the eastern New York Regional Occupational Health Center?
May Dooley:No, that was the conferencw I went to, Johanning's conference. My certification was I don't remember who now but the with indoor air quality group. ISEAI or something like that. No, that's the carpet people. That's not where I have certification from, but it's a national certification with the indoor air. So I started out with mold inspector certification and, and I have the CA D Council certified microbial consultancy MC.
Erik Johnson:Yeah, I was just wondering where they got their certification, whether they derived their authority to talk about mold?
May Dooley:Well, who knows? Who knows, they can say that for just about everybody in the industry.
Erik Johnson:It seems to me that these people are just printing up certificates when they haven't really researched the history of their subject matter.
May Dooley:Do you know this goes had years made probably before, they knew as much as they know now about mold, but we're still in the wild wild west when it comes to mold. Just let's go into that troublesome area of mycotoxins in houses. I have more questions than I have answers. I can just tell you that I find it curious that of the two labs that I know that will do dust samples for mycotoxins the instruction instructions are opposite from the two labs. And one lab says we don't find them very often and one lab says we do. And I don't know if the places that they tell people to check might have something to do with that. Do you do sample visible mold or don't you? We know that exposure if present does not equate to exposure. So if something is not volatile, and it's in a wall cavity or in a basement storage room or something, if mycotoxins are there, and they're not volatile, would you be exposed to them? Not that they not that there aren't other parts of mold that are significant to and should be cleaned up, but talking about mycotoxins, so I have had maybe a dozen, 25 people who have tested high in the urine test and and wanted for peace of mind to sample their homes for mycotoxins and we talked about it and decided that maybe sampling visible mold isn't the best storage sample were exposed, and 25 out of 25, the negative have not found mycotoxins. So then I thought, well, let me write up a protocol, just in case mycotoxins are there. What would that protocol look like? So I said, Well, call the labs and see what they recommend. And what I've learned is that one lab that certifies product says, well, we've only certified one product, and it's a proprietary product, so it's not available to the public, used by a mold remediation company in Florida. And that's what we've certified. Another lab says, well, we've certified a product too, and I'm both lab state what this certification product process is the test tube process. And then I say, well, what's the field experience? Don't have any. This is the state of our industry, enough to drive you nuts. So what do I know? I'm hearing people coming to me saying I'm throwing everything up to the mycotoxins. Where are they? I don't know. Yeah.
Erik Johnson:Well, you talk about the mycotoxin issue being very controversial. And back in the 1970s mycotoxins weren't even known when the sick building industry developed this concept of there being something in sick buildings, it was all chemicals Legionnaires disease, no mold. In fact, mold wasn't even discovered until the 1980s when Dr. William Croft was investigating a house in Chicago, whole house full of sick people. And he had Bruce Jarvis test for toxic mold, trichothecenes and because Jarvis knew about Stachybotrys, he was astounded at the high levels of trichothecenes that have gone undetected. So this is really the first human health effects from toxic mold in the literature. This was 1986 and prior to that mycotoxins weren't even known at all. So these are people who are issuing certificates for indoor air quality, we're doing so on the basis of chemicals, Legionnaires disease, no knowledge of mold. And when mold was finally discovered, they started acting is that the certifications applied to mold when they had no knowledge they hadn't even looked into it.
May Dooley:Interesting. Interesting.
Erik Johnson:So now I asked about these certifications, because a lot of them are based on a false premise.
Kealy Severson:Erik, could you also please explain to her what Dr. Straus said about that one test that could find the concentration of mycotoxins and how that's not available and also maybe exudate because I think people get a false sense of security checking their ducts and that's not the only place you'd find them.
Erik Johnson:Yeah, Dr. David Straus, who investigated the Melinda Ballard case, who got sick on the spot, and permanently he lost his hearing and he had all kinds of health effects from just going into that house for a short period of time, he realized that the testing methods weren't correlating to people sickness. So they concentrated vast volumes of air to bring up the level of toxins straight up toxins to the point where they their testing could actually find them. Because it turns out that these testing methods for trichothecenes for mycotoxins, they're simply not sensitive enough to find these pathogenic levels that people are actually inhaling in the real world situation.
May Dooley:Interesting. There's also testing you mentioned Bruce Jarvis a minute ago, he has a study that he that I broke the sentence down to bring here was in the ran 2004-2005, the principal mycotoxins that contaminate food and feed, and then he has in parenthesis aflatoxins, ochra toxin are rarely if ever found in indoor environments. So I don't know how to put all this together. Yeah, he doesn't. Let's check out trichothecenes. That's true.
Erik Johnson:Well, prior to the sick building incidents of the late 1980s and early 1990s, the only avenue for exposure to mycotoxins was ingestion, people didn't even believe that it was possible to get enough exposure in the air to be a problem. So that was the paradigm shift is from the early 1990s through the late 1990s. It was apparent that inhalation was a problem, whereas this is previously unreported.
May Dooley:What do you recommend for cleaning up mycotoxins or protesting for them for that matter?
Erik Johnson:I recommend nothing. I find that all the testing is unreliable. It's so wrong, that it's counterproductive, in my opinion. And the reason for that is when I did my experiments with the sample of Stachybotrys, the experts were assuring me that if you remove the spores and fragments, your problem was gone. That's it. And, and my sensations didn't really fit that. In fact, I took some contaminated objects, hard, non porous objects, both plastic and metal. And I washed them first using detergent, and then going up to ammonia and bleach. And it had no effect, it still still slammed me. So I thought there's something wrong with this picture here. So I took that sample of Stachybotrys, out to the desert, and I walked into the wind so that I wouldn't contaminate the exterior of a HEPA vacuum cleaner bag, put it inside the bag, sealed up with tape, and found it the effect came right through the bag. So this idea that you could contain it within a HEPA system was not applicable to me. So I took this information to Dr. Vincent Marinovich, who at the time was the only mold specialists we had on the West Coast. There was Dr. Gordog with he wasn't really public, like Dr. Marinovich was. So he was the big name and I thought, well, I'll go straight to the top guy. And so I told him, that this concept of testing for spores and believing that containment of spores, deals with the problem was was wrong. And he got kind of shocked. And he told me about a housing project in Sweden and he had just heard about were all the inhabitants were sick. And all the testing found nothing, nothing at all. I mean, it was as clean as could be. And it wasn't until they busted open the walls that they found Stachybotrys so tightly sealed within the walls that no spores or fragments, no nothing detectable was escaping, and yet everybody was still sick. And so I told document grids, there you go, that confirms it. Something is coming right through the sheetrock. It's not contained. We have to warn people that that's air sampling and new testing methods are unreliable, they're not adequate because you're right. But then it never went anywhere.
May Dooley:Yeah. Well, that's also the question of the MVOCs. What are people reacting to? Is it that can can chemicals get through the walls? I don't know. I have a client like that too. She could be walk around the room and say I feel dizzy here and there's Stachybotrys in the wall.
Erik Johnson:Exactly. So that was my point I go There's something so specific to Stacie Batra is that we should analyze this particular mold. And of course, I wondered if it was the chemicals, the other things the bacteria that I was being exposed to. That was simple enough to test. I took my sample of Stachybotrys to the desert where there were no chemicals. I was in a tent, and they sealed it up inside a HEPA bag and tried to make sure that I wasn't reacting to the bag. There was no problem with it until I put that Stachybotrys inside, and I found I could recreate my symptoms. So there I've isolated the substance without the any other chemicals. That's it just the Stachybotrys So considering this showed up so many times in the sick building syndrome, and in the original cohort of chronic fatigue syndrome. To me, that's more than enough evidence to warrant serious investigation into this one particular thing.
May Dooley:Yeah. Yeah. that go along with that. Good.
Erik Johnson:So the question for me was, why wasn't this reported in the past? I mean, mold has been around for millions of years. So why is there no record of this. And what I looked at the places where Stachybotrys was affecting people where people were pointing at it, these were only the colonies that had access to fresh water, the colonies that had been dried up and persisted in back rooms where there weren't water leaks, maybe it got going years ago, but it dried out, that hadn't really changed its value very much. People were complaining about mold to a certain extent. But the only places that really, really bothered them, were areas that had lit up recently. And so this suggested to me that something was coming in in the atmosphere, getting into the water, and feeding the mold, something that it wasn't previously using to process into a more pathogenic toxin. So with this model, that something was feeding the mold and making it worse than it had been before. I applied this picture to people in buildings that were just recently having water leaks. And they were complaining ways that they'd never complained before. So I told the chronic fatigue syndrome researchers, that based on my observations of mold acting in new ways, they can expect to see, in my own words, millions of people pointing at mold. So here that was 35 years ago and we've gotten in that time from mold being completely unknown, disbelieved, you couldn't find any mold doctors to now everybody's got a mold story, which suggests to me that my prediction that something was feeding the mold and making it worse, fits the profile.
May Dooley:Yeah, well, that so but you also have tests that are convincing people, that they've got a problem, and then maybe they're connecting some of their symptoms with mold that may or may not belong there. It's a tough, tough business. And that's why I tried to, as I said, keep it simple, make your house healthy, and then you don't have to worry about these things. And that can be easier said than done. I understand that. But not everything is mold. I've time to time, try to kind of talk people down from the cliff because they've been so frightened. What they hear in these chat rooms that they're almost immobilized. And one woman I used that for questions, thework.com and these questions can be very helpful. Now this woman had lost two or three houses to mold before I knew her so I don't know the situation. But I was inspecting the pre purchase of the next house and it was good house, there was an area that needed remediation, and as soon as you heard that, making a mistake, buying another house that it won't be able to live in. And and no amount of talk could could to calm her fears or, or help her to get past that hurdle so I use the four questions from that website. One state your belief, I'm afraid buying this house is the mistake. Second question, can you know that be sure? Well, no, I can't know for sure we could do remediation or might be fine. Third question, how would you feel without the fear that buying the house would without the thought that buying the house would be a mistake? Feel relaxed, we'd finally have a forever home for our family. And then the fourth question is grammatical turnaround. buying the house would be a mistake, because blah, blah, blah, buying the house wouldn't be mistake because blah, blah, blah. But when I turned it around to the house is afraid of me buying it coming with my bad energy. She laughed and broke, they broke the tension. They bought the house they did the remediation work, mold was found and anticipated, they cleaned it up, and they're happy happily ever after. So fear can play such a big part in so many people. And they're getting these fears from the test results. Like said you could you could prove just about any houses uninhabitable with an army test testing and old dust.
Erik Johnson:The people as you say, walking into a building and pointing at any water stain or any black streak and freaking out. Well, thanks to my experience of having a bad effect, a bad reaction to Stachybotrys, but not all the other modes. I never had any fear of any other malted on fact I go into moldy places all the time. I scoop up mold with my bare hands. It does in fact, I was going with somebody to a house, and I stirred up some Aspergillus on some lube with my finger and it's Oh, I wouldn't do that. And I go I'll eat this on my peanut butter sandwich.
May Dooley:No, no, we don't want to do this, Erik.
Erik Johnson:Well I would because as a carpenter, I was chopping up wood and with firewood. I've got wood, it's covered with mold. It never bothered me never bothered me before, so I'm not going to worry about it now. So this has been a real advantage to me, because I never had this fear of all these other molds. Only the one particular sensation that I associate with Stachybotrys.
May Dooley:Okay, yeah, I've heard that before but Aspergillus can be dangerous it can grow in lung tissue. You know that that last year is toxic mold summit that was an ear, nose and throat doctor interviewed, and he said show me mycotoxins in the urine. I'll show them to you in the sinus tissue. I got a call one Saturday night this guy said you should know my story. He was an Energy Rater and as part of his job he was closing off a fence, sealing them, taking measurements, whatever he does, and he had a headache start and it was Aspergillus growing in his brain had an operation left with epilepsy he went to his lungs is on the highest level of, he called it the deep end. I don't know what that is, but it was an antifungal medication. So I have a healthy respect for other types of mold too. And maybe you're fine. And I understand what you're saying,
Erik Johnson:Well, no, no, no, you don't actually because Aspergillus is something we're inhaling all the time, doctors say it's everywhere, you can't avoid it. And the pattern that I saw is that people who had Stachybotrys in their house, then we're getting Aspergillus infections. So this suggested to me that the Stachybotrys was such a powerful immune suppressor, that they were getting infections that they wouldn't otherwise have. So on that basis, I'm not going to be concerned about a mold is everywhere, which can be infectious under certain circumstances. When if I inhaled immunosuppressives properties of Stachybotrys, then to all intents and purposes, I don't have to worry about the secondary things.
May Dooley:It's it's hard to prove something like that. It mean, how can you prove that somebody had an exposure to Stachybotrys at some point.
Erik Johnson:We can't do it without if they refuse to research it. But if you do a mental model, a thought experiment, of who gets Stachybotrys poisoning, who gets Aspergillus poisoning, and who gets mucormycosis or coccidiomycoses or Cryptococcus neoformans. It's amazing how people can be exposed to these things all the time without a problem, but put a little Stachybotrys into the mix, and they're down for the count.
May Dooley:Okay, so I can learn something from you. But I will come back to zero tolerance for mold. If it's there, get rid of it. Because what this story peep stories of people that have reactions to Aspergillus Penicillium are real and I don't know their history, whether they've been exposed to Stachybotrys to that's not my business, and doctor or whoever. We need a crystal ball in some cases for that, but I know that they're reacting to the mold in the house and I can deal with that. That makes sense
Erik Johnson:That zero tolerance is actually part of creating the fear in people's minds.
May Dooley:We can look for the mold and get rid of it safely, keep it from coming back.
Erik Johnson:Well, if mold is, now we've got people saying, well, it's mold on the trees, it's mold in the grass, it's mold. And they are so freaked out that they're paralyzed, they're scared to move, they're saying don't bother to run for mold, because you can't, it's everywhere. So I go completely the opposite way and go, the doctors are right, mold is everywhere. And to me, there's only a very few pathogenic strains. And I can sense them. And so long as I worry about those, I don't have to bother cleaning any other mold. I'll scoop it up with my hands, I'll have mold in my environment, a lot mold in the dirt, of all molds on my brand on my cheese. I don't care.
May Dooley:Okay, I hear you.
Erik Johnson:And I believe that when the more I look at these few really powerful molds, I find that they are so overwhelming that they open a window of vulnerability that wouldn't otherwise exist. But it's really made it simple for me because I don't have to clean anything. I don't have to vacuum anything, I don't wash anything. I don't worry about anything. This is one particular sensation that I associate with Stachybotrys is the only thing that I pay any attention to.
May Dooley:Okay. Registered. Thank you.
Erik Johnson:Okay. But the story that you had about the 100 year old house, you know, people also have it's so fixed in their minds, that this is a problem that emerged in the 1970s after the oil embargo, and everybody building tighter houses with more water leaks. Well, wait a minute, why is it lighting up in 100 year old houses? And why is it in certain areas where nothing has changed since the 1880s? So that idea doesn't fit either. And now we've got people running from new houses, for people run from old houses, because it's old. So it's got to grow mold, or it's a new house. So it's got to grow mold. It's like the ideas are so contrary, so confusing, so contradictory, that people are paralyzed with fear, and they don't know what to do.
May Dooley:Yeah. That's why to me, keep it simple. Look for the sources safely get rid of them. Make sure you have a healthy home, go on with your life. Don't make mold the center of your life. Yenno.
Erik Johnson:Well, also, when I've realized it's, it's very confusing, and there's a lot to this, but my feeling that as a prototype for chronic fatigue syndrome, since this was reported in the original object and purpose of the syndrome, that when I approach a researcher, I shouldn't have to ask, ask twice, to get research into this, let alone 35 years of wasted effort. So I'm pretty upset at our research institutions. When they're saying no, we are the experts, we're going to inform you, when their ideas are so confusing. It's so scary. It's so contradictory, that they make no sense and they don't fit the facts.
May Dooley:Well, when I started this business, Erik, my dad was the safety supervisor of a huge metropolitan gas company. And we were talking about electromagnetics with the power line issue back in the 70s. And he said, he told me, he said, the smallest person can bring a lawsuit, they will bring the biggest legal guns against them, because they don't want a precedent set. And maybe that goes for a lot of things. It's why I come back to you. If you don't, if I don't take this responsibility for my own life, make the home as safe as I can with the with the inside. I have nobody else is going to do it for me. Yeah, that's why my websites are do it yourself oriented. And, and we go from there, yea.
Erik Johnson:You know, my grandfather kind of told me a funny story. He said that back way long time ago, natural gas didn't have that odorant in it. So there was no way to tell if you had a gas leak. And there were houses. He lived in San Francisco. And there were houses blowing up and gas leaks all the time, and people didn't know about it. And finally they introduced this methyl mercaptans, the odorant, which is a sensitizing agent. That's why we can tell it, it's such a low concentration, because it's a it's an irritant. And who knows what problems the methyl mercaptans is causing, because it does prime the immune system for a response. But the funny part is that people complained about it bitterly because they said, well, the metal mercaptans that odor is causing gas leaks. I never had a gas leak in my house until they added that damned oderant.
May Dooley:That's funny. Yeah, yeah.
Erik Johnson:Yeah, the thought process is a little bit backwards here. And I see that same pattern with the mold, where people are blaming molds in general. I never had a problem with the mold. Well, maybe something did change. And I think we need to be taking a look at that.
May Dooley:Okay, any other questions or topics you'd like to cover? I'm looking at my list to see what I might have here. I think I know I had an inspection. A couple of weeks ago, the woman met me and this was a doctor referral, how I got to her house. She said, done, I had two inspections done already. I liked both of the inspectors, I'd hired them ahead, again. And by the time we finished with the microscope, and all the other things that were done, checking the vacuum cleaner, etc. She said, I didn't learn one 100 from them as what I've learned from you. And this is not to sell my services. I'm trying to pass on what I know known on the on my website, so I would just encourage people to want to do that empowerment to spend some time there.
Alicia Swamy:So May you are spending six to seven hours with each client. Is that where they heard earlier? Or was that was a mistake?
May Dooley:No, no, that's it.
Alicia Swamy:Wow, wow, that's incredible because most testers will come in your house and they'll spend maximum hour. And that's if you're lucky. And then they're out of there. So to spend six or seven hours. Wow. That's incredible. And another thing I'm really curious about is what is it that you're finding in your microscope analyses, what's a common theme or mold that you constantly see, under your microscope?
May Dooley:There about a half a dozen that are really common Aspergillus, Penicillium, very common markers for dampness for mold incidents, for water into rather, I see a lot of cladosporium anyway, you have condensation, you're going to see cladosporium. I see a lot of Stachybotrys and Chaetomium, very common as well. And the others would be lesser Alternaria and that sort of thing. But a breakdown Alicia on the 6-7 hours. So we might spend a half hour kind of getting oriented to the house tour and what the symptoms are what they might be related to. And then I would do maybe, maybe it takes two hours to do the the air samples so that the homeowner is usually doing them not me. And I liked the culture plate samples, I can study them at home for one thing in my home office. And I can also use them for better diagnosis instead of lumping all the theoretical spore into Aspen category. We know if it's x pen or Aspergillus, Penicillium, we we can sample wherever we want, every room, every room Air Purifier with carbon in it, every dehumidifier, they can get nasty, especially if they're in a moldy basement, wall cavities that outlets below grade spaces, all of those places. And then I'm going round with the tape sample. Every room again, whatever looks like an a moisture meter, of course, whatever it looks like, it could be a source of mold growth. These, it takes me another day to go through these and write a report for people. So it's kind of a two day project on a house. And and then we do the swab sample on the AC and then electromagnetic fields. So what we're doing there magnetic fields, of course, everybody will check that Well, anybody who's in in the EMF field, but we check the voltage at the bands because that has been associated with bedwetting and sleep issues. So what can we do to reduce that and that that's printed up on my website that's create your healthy home and just go to the EMF tab and body voltage it'll tell you how to do it. You can do it for under $100 in equipment and then we also do the Wi Fi and that I had already mentioned that, then check the vacuum cleaner, check the products in the house. The laundry products the cleaning products, going from least toxic products that mentioned the carbon dioxide levels. They're important because they they more than anything convince people of the need for ventilation with carbon dioxide the levels outside are typically under 500 average house 1000 I've seen as high as 2200 in a really tight house with that, and this is areas where you can feel sluggish and just not yourself. So that that's a big ticket item. We use the laser particle counter not only for the vacuum but also for the what's coming out the vent. Yesterday the house. The inside levels were something like 12,000 particles per turn on types of mold spores and bigger per cubic foot and when we check the vacuum the what was coming out the vent it was like 70,000. So there, they needed not only an upgrade in the filter that they had, but they also needed to, to eliminate bypass air being sucked in from a basement in this case. And the way to do that is to take the filter out, they had to filter by the return, put a flashlight or your cell phone in with the light on and shine it and see where the light comes out in the dark. And then what has to be sealed, because those, those areas are allowing basement air to be sucked in after the filter. And it's getting up upstairs. So little things like that can make a big difference. And we also meant I mentioned gas leaks before, bacteria in water. Now they had a Berkey filter. And Berkees always shouldn't say always, the ones I've tested, have had elevated bacteria, maybe that goes with the territory with Berkee because why wouldn't bacteria grow there? But I haven't had anyone do a test on the bacteria? Maybe it's not a non pathogenic type. Maybe it's pathogenic? I don't know, I just delivered the data, give them the options and see which way they want to go. What else can I think of carbon monoxide Of course, yesterday, for example, I showed the homeowner a low level carbon dioxide meter. It has the readings down to five parts per million, but ones that people have in their home don't do on both the upper and 30 parts per million. So you could be living in a low level of carbon monoxide and not even be aware of it. This is true tech tools are exactly are you te CH and demand pointed to the one he had. And it was plugged in when he said this okay, well, it's not as sensitive. But the other thing is, it's plugged in and carbon monoxide is slightly lower, lighter than air. So you really should have it up by the ceiling. I learned this in a Brooklyn basement was a small utility room, I found a gas leak. So they called the gas guy and I hadn't even checked for carbon monoxide yet. And he checked the hot water heater and picked up carbon monoxide. And I said this is a carbon monoxide detector like two feet from where he picked up this, this leak source. And he said you'd have to fill up the whole room before that would go up to the floor. I learned that lesson. And it turned out in Brooklyn that they had gotten into the chimney and died there. So that was what was clogging it up and they had a carbon monoxide issue there. But those are those are the main things both so this is kind of straddling an area but a lot of people don't have enough light in their lives. And this is an environmental issue. This is again a do it yourself thing not to step on any doctor's toes. But it's a neurologist who studied 1000 patients over 10 plus years in her business. And she has found some real interesting findings between D3 on a different type of test that is commonly done, which is not as accurate at higher levels and levels of B5 so that that website is Dr. Dr. Coleman.com because light is just so foundational to help in our homes don't particularly have what we need on that. So those are some of the things we we never know what we'll find in a particular house. Never know if poking a tube down along the pipe access beneath the sink cabinet might show something of elevated mold levels. One one house the woman said I always react when I'm sitting on my living room couch and she was in a city apartment with parquet flooring. And I was there with the microscope once this was before we knew about containment and all those things years ago of just pulling up the parquet floors with the maintenance people tested until we got to the end of it and and it was Aspergillus and Penicillium. That was symptoms went away. Another issue that should be mentioned is these mini split ductless systems that a lot of people are going to go to central air, finding mold in them very difficult to clean them one woman with two unit two took her heating contractor all day long to all afternoon long to clean them it was $200 a pop. And to do that every year. They just don't. They are now selling them for something through them. But I have no experience with that something I would be cautious about going into that realm there. There's a very interesting website. Google Nate Adams Petrify he's made a big study on electrification instead of fossil fuels with the gas and the and then the oil. Gas stoves are certainly an issue. Mother Jones last summer came out with an article on the history of gas stoves. We don't recommend them if you have to have a gas stove, trying to get an exhaust to the outside over them, because they're giving up all sorts of nasties into room air. Attached garages, he studies that show over 80% of houses with attached garages have infiltration of car exhaust there, okay, the garages are okay, they're set up, right maybe he'll walk all the untraced into the room air and seal up around the door underneath weather strip, and then perhaps put a timer on 45 minutes or so after car comes and goes. That sort of thing. Watch the little Chernobyl areas in the house, the paint cans, Jeff Maybook, My House is Killing Me. An additional, the second one that came out a year ago. Talks about putting when you're dealing with paint can put plastic wrap over the top and then put the top on and store it upside down so you don't get gas paint fumes coming out. A lot that can be done. Yeah.
Alicia Swamy:Awesome. Thank you. And you made a comment earlier about new wood being a problem versus old wood that was used in homebuilding. Can you explain the difference and why new wood that's used today is more problematic?
May Dooley:Well, for one thing a lot of is pressed wood and has a lot of formaldehyde in it or may have formaldehyde. One researcher estimated if you have a kitchen with let's say cabinets in it, and it has pressed wood shelving figure you have 11 pounds of formaldehyde in that and they've done they did a study with old cabinets and found that it was so off gassing. So if you can do anything and the kitchen do solid wood, the press word is more. I would say I don't know the the wood industry. I find some wood has had a high level of mold on it. One man in a new house two year old house. He said I can't go in this house. He had to go in with a spacesuit on and he had hired the best company could find a jersey and they found nothing. They tested from stem to stern to somebody told him about me in the microscope and took him three months he'd already had the best Why does he want to hire somebody else but I came in finally they had no other options. And the whole basement ceiling which was priced 100 us OSB was well they might have been OSB two, I don't recall, but it was covered with Aspergillus. And it didn't show up in the air sample it was bothering him. And, and that was that was the cause of it. Then I checked on Stachybotrys a couple of choices that his wife had over, over water plants upstairs, and they still water soaked into the wood, more wood. Also the older pressed wood shells, his shells were covered with Aspergillius and then the newer ones. And this is why I brought up the story. The newer ones don't bring it the old way. The old ones don't think they're adding something to this. They suppress wood products that may keep them from growing mold. I inspected a new house a couple of weeks ago. And the only place I found the mold under construction was on a doorframe and a window frame I think in in the basement and then some that had come in on both in the attic. That was mostly quite a story and not so significant. And I suggested to the builder that he just did it with the higher percentage hydrogen peroxide. So that's what he was going to do.
Alicia Swamy:Awesome. Yeah, going back to what Erik was saying how Stachbotrys is the the medium, the the medium agent that is causing the the infections, the sensitivities, and that's why he feels and also in our experience, why some people get MCS, multiple chemical sensitivities, because the Stachybotrys is actually just deteriorating, deteriorating the lung lining allowing to bring any chemical or anything that is not normal, anything that's manmade and it begins to disturb the body or create allergenic responses. And so that's kind of what we feel is going on and something that you said earlier I don't quite agree with, I don't think it's the best advice but we can agree to disagree. I don't think people should be painting over and spraying hydrogen peroxide, I think if there is water damage, maybe finding the source, maybe that's something that you meant to say and forgot to say. But I think it's very important to find the source first, and to make sure that has completely stopped because I think if you're just spraying hydrogen and painting over it, you're gonna keep having the same problem, and you're gonna have to keep doing the same thing. And that's kind of what happened in my home. When we had mold we, if we didn't find the source, we were basically throwing darts at a move on a moving target, I guess you can say. So is that something that you still stand by spraying and painting? Or do you feel like finding the source and removing or stopping the leak and then removing those those materials with fresh materials is a better way of handling something?
May Dooley:The context of what I was talking about there, I think was a basement, and that might not have a source basements or damper. I think every bit of wood should be painted and below grade space. And then that, yeah, that would be common sense to find the source and correct that before, sure. But some things can easily be disassembled. And and in some cases, people can't afford to even when they can. So it gets another option. Yeah, like I said, I haven't had mold grow back. We're not talking about painting over visible mold without a lot of fault. That's another issue. But it's, it's worked for me for 25 years. I've never had a house that I can remember where somebody couldn't mean sometimes, of course, some people left homes that's understood, but I can't remember any where a good remediation job was done, that they couldn't stay there. And maybe that's something to talk about what is a good remediation job? Because in 25 years in this business, I would I could count the remediation companies on one finger that I probably have confidence in. And that's that's pretty sad. If I were looking for a remediator as a homeowner, I would know what I want done first because there's a lot of gadgetry in this business. And somebody comes in and fogs and thinks they're going to solve everything is a gadget.
Alicia Swamy:I was just going to ask you your thoughts on fogging, because we were sold that lie just made everything worse. I actually, it made everything so much more unlivable for me that I had to leave, like I couldn't, I couldn't stay home after the fogging events so.
May Dooley:Yeah. So you know, the industry guidelines are deal with the moisture, find the source, clean HEPA vacuum, clean HEPA vacuum, and they may or may not encapsulate if somebody just follows that in a meticulous way. I mean, they do a pretty good job. In general, as far as my, my people that I've had experience with one, one woman had two local companies, each one made it worse than the other. And she brought in a company I had told her about, and it took them a lot more to clean because such a mess had been made by the other two, but she was able to get back in her house. And that was industry guidelines. We've all we always worked for people who are sensitive, meaning no chemicals, the chemicals that are the products that were mostly used, I could tell you is again, just
Alicia Swamy:I have a question for you, May. If you walked into basic hydrogen peroxide wiping down after HEPA vacuuming. And then they used, Well, which is online with Home Depot, it's registered for remediation projects, I do contact if you're really sensitive, it might not be the best product for you because they do have a petroleum binder in it. And for those people who could still tolerate latex paint, there'll be a CA recommend Earthlink.net. They have some like one prime, which is probably like Cali well without the binder. And that's been good for them. If nobody if they can't tolerate paint at all, maybe just mix up some whitewash and paint that on that will last for a while. And and then the cleaning, final cleaning of the air and final vacuuming. Maybe start with a course of vacuum something like the European GD 930 And then that's available for $100. It doesn't test really good with the particle counter because the filter is after is before the motor instead of after the motor so you get motor dust coming off too. But everything that's picked up from the ground goes through the filter, then they might finish up with something like an office gym maybe, which is a very good filter and value and that way things to avoid as far as I'm concerned is anybody that does their own inspection, remediation and post into post testing, because who knows what they're doing. They always pass their post tests, but it's very easy to pass a post test. I told him remediation supervisor years ago, I said, you wouldn't even have to remediate it, just set up your air scrubber, run it for a couple of hours and do it and air sample right next to it and you pass. So it's the difference between the types of testing, if you're honest scores, and I've realized there many particles that mold better beyond sports, but sports are the kind of the industry guidelines, and they're also a surrogate for everything else. If you have by spores, you've probably got everything else going along with it. And if you have nothing showing up, maybe it's good. We strongly recommend and research supports this aggressive testing, which is not sending up a tripod and taking a sample because mold falls down due to gravity. So why not just sample where the mold is, you sample on the floor and start the dust. That's the way I sample to find the mold. That's it. Another thing to avoid, are really that you won't have you also already mentioned that I had a house man that had knocked his house down once because of what was used in his house. He couldn't tolerate it. They loved the property. So they rebuilt on the property, the remediate. He had one to remediate in this and the guy said, I have no problem with this. Nobody reacts to this now. So you want to be careful there. someone's house that was highly sensitive. I mean, these people are the whole family's extremely sick, you find a source. Would you recommend that they completely replace the materials or just spray and paint over it?
May Dooley:It depends what the materials are and how much the mold is. If he if you're talking about structural issues like this, the whole basement ceiling, unless you've rebuilt the house, you're not going to do that. So we you're really stuck there. You have to HEPA vacuum and maybe spray, maybe wipe depends on the situation and then paint I mean, I'm always recommending an encapsulant put on the end because that it does a number of things if it if any left, depending parts of mold are left behind, they get sealed in and they're like capsule inches in some way. What is it now? It's the line based calcium hydroxide. So it's you don't have to have a chemical type of encapsulating. You could do something with calcium hydroxide, which is the white whitewash in no VSD paint base, essentially.
Alicia Swamy:So at what point would you tell a family that their home is unlivable?
May Dooley:I never tell them that. Yeah because I don't know the answer. There are things that they can do and and my job is to present the data, and you decide what you're going to do with that data. No, it may be I might say something like check with your doctor, regarding continued residence until this is dealt with. And then after successful testing, when my I'm not a doctor, I don't know their situation. And if they're that sensitive, they probably are out of the house ready.
Alicia Swamy:Yeah. So say if a family had consulted with you, and they're utilizing your testing methods, because it's so thorough, as evidence in the court of law, for whatever reason, would you ever write a letter for them stating that their house is unlivable due to the circumstances after all the measures have been taken that you've recommended?
May Dooley:I don't. I would pass them on, as I said before to an expert witness. And I don't know what they would say. I can give them informal advice based on my findings, but I don't know when a house becomes unlivable to them. I did. I did a I have an interesting case. It was a rental out in Ohio, and they didn't have money to move elsewhere. And a well meaning person took the house and it was like a not a foreclosure but a flip of some sort. And he he did the best he could even put wood cabinets in the kitchen for rental. And yet I found evidence of hidden mold in wall cavities and ceiling cavities. And and I suspected that that house probably should have been a knockdown rather than renovated. But he didn't know about mold. So he didn't know those things. But I'm not doing I'm not working for him. I'm working for the renter who can't move. So what do you do? So I suggested and some of the worst exposures were her own furniture which he brought in but she she could get rid of those and then do a thorough cleaning. I suggested something like a Panasonic for$400 they make an ERP and I know I spoke against ERP's before but this is a small On one end, you could change the hose out, you can you can maintain it to try to make her area of pressurized fresh air area. And that was that was the only thing I could think of for both people. They told her how bad the house was. But I was working for her to try to make it something she could live in since she didn't have any place else to go. So that was an example of one that was was just house that shouldn't have been renovated. Yeah.
Alicia Swamy:Thanks May, we're tough cookies over here. So thank you for being patient with our questioning and our commenting. But if our audience members wanted to work with you and consult with you or find any information on the resources that you provide, where can they find that?
May Dooley:Well, the websites I mentioned a couple of them create your healthy home.com Teach Yourself environmental home inspecting my wet my email addresses may@createyour healthyhome.com and the phone number is 717-273-1231. Yeah, and I appreciate you saying that I you certainly know more than I do in different areas. I'm just a simple mold inspector and I got to find the mold and tell people how to get rid of it.
Alicia Swamy:And thank you just for being so gracious and so lovely and we appreciate your attendance here. Thank you everyone for joining us today. We had May Dooley on she is a seasoned home tester. She tests for mold, bacteria, and emf in people's homes. And she's been doing this for such a long time. And just a wealth of knowledge. Of course you can see today we we agreed to disagree on certain things. And that's totally fine. We know what we've experienced and other people that we've talked to and she has her own experience and so we're all bringing that experience to the table here today. So please check out our Patreon page. If you want to become a member. We have some really awesome things happening in our groups behind the scenes. And also check out our website if you want to consult with us or anything else. Find some resources everything is there for you laid out. Feel free to reach out and we'll see you guys next time.