Episode 7: “Whatever the Need!” Says Angela Craig

May 12, 2021 
Dave Lankes & Mike Eisenberg 
74 minutes 

Mike and Dave are joined by a very special guest – the talented and enthusiastic Angela Craig, Executive Director, Charleston County Public Library. Charleston County is a cutting-edge regional library system. In addition to offering all that we expect from public libraries, Charleston has been particularly responsive to the challenges of helping people and communities due to emergencies such as Hurricane and of course, the Covid-19 pandemic. Angela explains the nature and scope of needs that emerged and the full-scale reaction by librarians and staff in terms of outreach, services, systems, and partnerships that were quickly deployed. We know that you will be as impressed as we are to learn about specific programs (e.g., vaccine clinics, telehealth connections, mobile hotspots and Wi-Fi, refrigerated community garden produce) and their close coordination with the regional emergency services department.

On the wazzup front, Dave announces that he’s taking a new, highly visible and prestigious job at the University of Texas in order to continue his passion of championing libraries, librarians, and making a difference in society. Mike rants about the deterioration of telephone and web-based customer service across all kinds of situations and domains.

References & Resources 

Angela Craig:
https://www.ccpl.org/team/angela-craig

Charleston County Public Library: https://www.ccpl.org/

Daniel Markovits, Daniel (May 6, 2021). “How College Became a Ruthless Competition Divorced From Learning,” The Atlantic. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/05/marriage-college-status-meritocracy/618795/ 

Credits
Audio, Production, and Streaming Services:
Yoni Yemini, ACE Chicago Events

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:18

Hi, this is David Lankus and welcome to Libraries Leading the New Normal, our podcast where I get together with Mike Eisenberg, former mentor and awesome guy, where we basically argue for a while about what the world should be because damn it, we know. This is going to be a little bit different this week because we have a great interview, but I want to just say welcome and thank A Chicago Events for helping to produce this episode and providing some amazing engineering. Mike, how's your day going?

SPEAKER_02 0:47

It's going well, Dave. Thank you. Just a quick intro to the podcast. We came to do this podcast. This is actually episode seven, because we realize there's a new normal emerging in our world. The pandemic and other events of 2020 and 2021 have been catalysts for rapid transformative change and the way that we do everything. Live, work, learn, have fun, hang out, whatever. So what's going on and what does it all mean? And are we really going to go back to the way it was? I don't think so. I don't think Dave does either. And we really believe that libraries and librarians have a major role to play as society comes to grips with this new normal. There are new responsibilities and opportunities for libraries to fulfill our core roles of information, resource provider, books and services and access and place, and to expand into new roles involving emergency preparedness, coping with mis and disinformation, and enhancing digital as well as physical life. In this podcast, libraries lead in the new normal. We'll cover such topics as coping with the pandemic, post-pandemic life, social justice, political unrest, the changing nature of work and play and home, and the like. So again, our unique focus will be on libraries and all things libraries. This is our unique take on things, the nature and scope of libraries, librarians, library functions, and the information world at large. Approximately, we take about 40 to 45, maybe 50 minutes if we stretch it. There's uh four different parts of the podcast. There's the introductions, which we're doing now, and then we do a what's up with Dave and Mike. And we get to the main topic, which tonight is an interview with Angela Craig from the Charleston County Public Library. Uh and then we do our awesome library thingy, uh, which has become a popular part of the podcast. So let's get right to it, Dave. So what's up with you?

SPEAKER_01 2:59

Well, just a little bit. Um, interesting that by the time people hear this podcast, it won't be the first time, but it is the first time I put it out there. Uh, I have a new job. I'm leaving as director of the School of Information Science at the University of South Carolina, and I'm going to be the inaugural Virginia and Charles Bowden Professor of Librarianship at the University of Texas at Austin and their iSchool. Uh, I'm really, really, really excited, not only because it's a great school and a great place and a great city, but um it's it really is a program. Uh the the professorship was set up specifically to explore, enhance, build, and study uh how libraries are essential to society and the world. And so um I I love South Carolina and love my job there, but this was really a dream job, and so I'm very excited to be saying, you know, next next fall, uh this will be coming at you from Austin. So what's up with you, Mike?

SPEAKER_02 4:03

Wow. Well, first of all, congratulations, Dave. Uh and uh the University of South Carolina has done some great things with you there, and I'm sure they will continue, and I'm sure that you'll you'll be involved. Uh uh that school has really been focusing on information and libraries and doing some great things. So uh, but I I think you're right. The platform that you'll have at Austin in order to promote the library field is actually what we're all about with this podcast. Wow. Uh I didn't expect that in today's announcement, but that's good. Congratulations, Dave. Uh, so my what's up is more on the frustration rant side of the world. Uh, and it has to do with trying to get some help recently and some uh commonly frustrating experiences I've been having with the airlines and calling insurance companies, the bank, the government. Um, it's kind of related a little to my previous exasperation with getting a vaccine appointment, but it's really more systemic than that. And one of the examples is the airline, and I will have the particular airline, I won't name them, but uh we needed to change a ticket, and so we tried online as they recommend over and over when you call. Check our website, check our website. You can do it on the web, you could do it on the web. And so after spending, you know, uh 20 minutes on that, uh, it said, Oh, we can't do this on the web, please call. So I did. Got the music, waited, the same recording to check our website. Check our website because that's where you can do this stuff. Um, finally, tick, tick, tock, tick, tick, tock. After about 10 minutes, I got the joyful callback option. We can call you back. You won't lose your place. I I love that. I think that's one of the great innovations. Yep. So when I signed up for it, they said, yep, we'll call you back within two or three hours. I'm serious. And this was about nine, ten o'clock at night. Yeah. So I did it. I took it, I wrote down, okay, fine. And uh at about 1:30 in the morning, the phone rang and it was the airline calling back. Yeah, they actually called back in about three and a half hours. And uh uh I finally got the stuff resolved. But seriously, is is that the best we can do now with all this stuff, with um online and and digital and person-to-person health services? Why have we kind of turned it around that it used to be the burden was on the companies to provide good service for us, now they've kind of given it to us. We're the ones that have to go to the website and figure out how to do stuff. We're the ones that have to go through this, you know, voicemail hell. And uh can't, you know, we we keep talking that we uh uh we're gonna use AI to replace people. Well, I gotta tell you, there are their AI systems when it comes to help services and call centers and whatever really doesn't work. You know, and I I was thinking, you know, I don't know if you go to Trader Joe's uh Dave, but I like Trader Joe's a lot. One of the things about Trader Joe's is they actually have all of their crew who even do the shelving and the restocking. It's all done during open hours. They don't restock Trader Joe's at night because they want as much of the crew to be on board and available to help customers as possible. And any crew person can drop whatever they're doing and help any customer at any time. And if they never get the restocking done, that's okay. So can't we can't we turn around this? And isn't this kind of related to what you are known for? You know, the digital reference and question and answer services and stuff like that. Uh, wouldn't that be something good to talk about in a future episode?

SPEAKER_01 8:11

I think that would be remarkable. You know, I'm I reminded eons ago, Esther Dyson, who's sort of a futurist and big person at the at the rise of the internet, once said that I think she actually even talked about Web 2.0 or even phrased that, coined that term, but she said in the future, the true luxury will be the ability to talk with people. That that for just this matter, that that, you know, it it's going to be the elites and the haves and et cetera, that will have the ability to talk to a person. Everyone else is going to be shifted to these online systems. And here we are.

SPEAKER_02 8:46

Yeah, it it's it's extraordinary. We've kind of let it happen. And I'm not even sure it's cost effective, frankly. You know, I'd really like to see uh some real studies of the economic pros and cons of this. So, well, uh maybe we can do it in our next podcast because I'm really I'm really kind of fed up with this kind of thing. So uh anyway, that was my what's up. And uh with that, we're gonna take a short break and we're gonna come back with our guest, Angela Craig from the Charleston County Public Library, uh, who has done some amazing stuff and actually is someone who can lead us out of this wasteland of question-answer service hell um and into a new age, perhaps. So, Yanni, please skew the music, and we'll come back in about 30 seconds, okay. So we're back. I'm Mike Eisenberg again, and I am very fortunate to be here with Angela Craig from the Charleston, South Carolina Public Library. I think you call it the CCPL, is that right, Angela?

SPEAKER_00 10:15

It's Charleston County Public Library.

SPEAKER_02 10:18

Charleston County Public Library. And I've been to Charleston, and it's a it's a lovely city, but I have to admit I've never been to the library. And just to let you know, Angela, this podcast uh came about because Dave Lankis and I go way back. We're we're old friends. He was a student of mine, and now he's the he's the teacher, and I'm the student because I learned from him. And we argue a lot about the world, life, the universe, and everything else, but also about libraries and the role of libraries. And we were doing that, and I don't know if it was Dave or me. We had, why don't we get this on tape? It's like we used to, you know, sit around and have lunch. And because I really believe that there's a new normal that's going to emerge from our society. That the past year, year and a half has been a terrible thing in some ways, but there's also some silver linings that have come out and sort of resetting our society. So that's what we've been doing. Uh, most of the time, Dave and I just talk to each other and we we have uh a topic that we might uh go into, but we've also uh have interviews with very special librarians uh or public people. Uh we had a woman from the state of Montana uh Office of the Superintendent of Instruction, Cole Bartow, spoke with us a few weeks ago about education and the changes in education. So we're really excited to have you uh and to really delve deeper into what's going on in public libraries, urban public libraries in particular, uh, but also your library, and you are known as innovators and entrepreneurs within the public sector. So uh I look forward to asking you some questions and delving into that. But maybe you could just uh tell us a little about yourself and uh how you came to your position and uh how you even came to the field.

SPEAKER_00 12:25

Yeah, well, thank you. Thank you so much. And I really am happy you're doing this podcast. I think after COVID, one of the best things we can do is reflect and parse through what we've learned. And I think recording it for posterity is a great thing to do. And I hope that we can all banter together, you know, someday you, David, and I. I think that'd be really fun. I'm sorry David couldn't be here today. Uh, but my name is Angela Craig. I am the executive director of the Charleston County Public Library, been in this role for two years as of a few days ago, um, which is great. And um, I've been in the field though for 16 years. I started with the Charlotte Mecklenburg Library um in 2005, and um, maybe that's more like 15 years, but um I stumbled upon it by accident. I had a career before this one with the YMCA, and um my undergrad was in recreation management and you know outdoor play, and I'm a big believer in that, and um I thought my career would be with the YMCA, but that didn't work out just for various things. And um, I was looking for a part-time job, and there was an opening at the Charlotte Mecklenburg Library, and I thought, oh, you know, I like books, I like reading, and um, you know, I had an internship or, you know, a student job uh when I was in college with the library, and I shelved some things. Yeah, I think I'll apply for this. So I applied at CML, and um, I don't know if you're familiar with that library system, but it's very dynamic, and there's a particular branch there called Imagine On that is um the children's library, it's a youth library, and it is a partnership between the public library and the children's theater of Charlotte. So the building actually has two large theaters in it, um, one that seats 200, one that seats 500, and it has studio spaces, rehearsal rooms, they do all of their work in-house, and it has libraries as well. It has a children's library, a preteen library, and a teen library. And that was in 2005, and so they hired me and I got to open the building. And that was a really unique experience for someone new in the field. That's not a normal library experience I know now, uh, because it was um very um learned as you go, very collaborative. Um normal lines between, you know, in public libraries that you're in circulation, or you know, you're a reference librarian, or you know, you work for this age group, they just weren't there because we had to get this building together and there was another organization in there anyway, with the children's theater. So we just really were very open to each other's ideas and perspectives and working together and building this system um between these two organizations, and you know, how do we serve the youth of Charlotte? So I fell in love with libraries very fast because that was my library, that was my mothership. And um I ended up deciding that I needed to learn more about the community. So I applied for and um got a place in the outreach department. I was in the outreach department with um the Charlotte Mecklenburg Library for four years, and I did every underserved population you could possibly do, you know, homeless, incarcerated, um, at-risk, um, home daycares, senior centers, and just really learned to love bringing the library to the community if they couldn't come to us. So that became sort of a core value of mine. Um, then I switched to children's, where I was a children's manager and did all the normal, you know, flannel boards, finger plays, writing uh story times, and you know, ransomware reading a couple of summers. And it was a lot of fun learning, you know, to kind of help parents navigate how to help their children grow as readers, but also help the parents become confident in that. I wasn't a parent at the time, but I was a children's manager in the beginning. So I kind of felt a little bit like a fraud because you know, I did not have a kid, but I loved kids and uh had worked with kids for a long time and really took the role of like coach, like coaching the parents to help their kids become lifelong readers. Because a lot of parents I've found had doubt about, you know, how can I make my kids, you know, smart and academically inclined. And the kid was only six months old, and I'm like, hey, we just gotta teach them to love books, that books are fun, you know, that books are toys, and that you can like reading is play. And um that became a core value of mine. And then I was promoted to the teen services coordinator and um really loved working with underserved teens. I was back in Imaginon um running the teen library, the teen library part and then the system of um teen services around Charlotte Mecklenburg. And then I ended up um serving on some young adult library um boards with Yalsa, and that was really fun and doing some book award stuff. And um I really loved seeing teen services as a bridge, and my philosophy for teen services was that we help teens um transition into adulthood, whatever that looks like for them. Because adulthood, you know, successful adulthood looks different for every teen. So that became another core um value for me. And then I became the branch manager of Imaginon of the very library that I started at. Um, and that was just really remarkable because then I got to lead at the building that I'd been hired at. And I had, I thought, and I still think a really unique perspective because I've been there when it opened and I'd seen different iterations, but I was very open to, you know, where where are we going next? What's our next adventure? And then I was promoted to um associate director essentially, it's called Center City Leader, where I was over Imagine On the Youth Library, and then Main Library, the big um main library in uptown Charlotte. So I had the two biggest libraries that I was managing and um learned a lot. That was probably one of the hardest things I did, but it was really fun. And then that prepared me to be an executive director at uh Charleston. And um, you know, met a lot of great people along the way and had a lot of great mentors. Then I got to be a mentor, um, which was very full circle to a lot of people, kind of like the next group. And now I'm running my own system. So that's it's been really fun. I really, really love libraries and I really believe in public libraries.

SPEAKER_02 19:15

So it's has to have been a tremendous shock to you've only been in the job two years, and you're actually you're in the job a year or so when the world turns upside down. When you know, everything that you probably had planned and thought that you were going to be doing and working on. Um all of a sudden, whether it was January or February 2020, it all changed, right? And so what happened then? What what you know, what was the, you know, walk me through it as if it was like a hurricane coming through, which also I assume happens in Charleston. But um, yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 20:00

Yeah. Um, in so I started in April 2019, and in 2019, ironically, we did have a hurricane, Hurricane Dorian hit. And so um, and that was like a category two off the coast. That was my first hurricane. Um, and Charleston knows hurricanes very well. So, really, I just kind of stepped out of the way and let my handle that. And I just I learned from them because I had never done that before, and I just asked a lot of questions and kind of kept out of the way. Um, but with COVID, I distinctly remember talking about COVID the first time in January 2020, and we were we went to PLA, and a lot of us were going to PLA.

SPEAKER_02 20:43

That was in Nashville, and we were, you know, talking through the executive team kind of that we needed just for anybody's listening who's not a librarian, PLA is the public library association. We got to spell out our accession.

SPEAKER_00 20:59

I just started the Public Library Association.

SPEAKER_03 21:02

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 21:03

I I will I will definitely do it. Yeah, the Public Library Association, they have a conference like every two years, and it was in Nashville in 2020. So, right before a bunch of us left for that conference, the executive team and I sat down and we put together like a 10-point escalation plan of what to do if COVID came to Charleston. And it was a very reasonable plan of, you know, we might um, you know, take some make and takes off the floor. We might not have, you know, pins and toys and things. Um, as a very dire consequence, we wouldn't do programs maybe for a little bit. Um, and you know, that but that was like that was the most dire thing we could think of. Like we just wouldn't do library, we wouldn't do story time, we wouldn't gather. And when we got back from Nashville, that was in February, and then suddenly the first cases started, you know, emerging, but they hadn't come to Charleston just yet, and then suddenly they were there. In March, and we didn't even get through our escalation plan. Like we blew all the way to like if that was a 10-point escalation plan, like we were like escalation 40, you know, very quickly. Our governor closed down the public schools, and um he made an announcement that all public schools in South Carolina on March um 16th on that Monday were going to be closed until further notice. And then we knew and we hadn't thought through that scenario what happens if the public schools are closed, but we realized if the public schools were closed, we weren't equipped to handle the level of kids and parents in public coming into our branches at that time. Um we had been told by DHEC, by um the health department for South Carolina, that you know, we needed to have gloves and masks and cleaning supplies. And the only gloves we had were in our first aid kit, and we didn't have any masks, and we we didn't even know if like we had the right cleaning supplies. So we knew we couldn't equip our teams with the safety protocols with the with the PPE. So we you know closed the branches and started making plans for you know what was next. So we decided um within three days we were back online. We had a complete shift on um how we served the public, and we switched platforms to in-person to virtual. So we switched to a virtual platform within three days.

SPEAKER_02 23:27

And we three days and this is mid March in three days.

SPEAKER_00 23:32

Yes. The schools were closed on. I have I wrote it down so I can remember. Schools closed on March 16th. By March 19th, we had our first virtual program on Facebook, and we figured out that all of our library staff had this amazing catalog of programs that they've been doing for years, and we didn't have to recreate anything. And all we had to have them do was just record it. A lot of it um were you know original, it was original content, but in the case of story time and things like that, um, the publishers actually loosened up on having you record, you know, with books and things like they gave people permission, which was great. That that came a little bit later, but um yeah, we switched within three days to a virtual platform, which again, if you have the access, if you have the computers and the technology at your home or wherever, that was great. And we had a very, very positive response from people. Like our virtual participation shot up to like the thousands, like every five minutes we had you know higher numbers. It was great.

SPEAKER_02 24:38

Let me let me just ask you about the numbers. So, um, how many people do you serve in the county in your county system?

SPEAKER_00 24:46

About do you have those kinds of uh yeah, we have um over 400,000 people in Charleston County. Um, we have about 200,000 active borrowers, as we call. So about half the county has a library card by our estimation, which is good. Okay. And um, and that we also are able to count in that count um the school children. Um, those are about 50,000 cards because uh our public school kids can use their student IDs as a library card. So we count that um as part of our um active borrow account too.

SPEAKER_02 25:28

So they have a number on their card and and you just adopt that. Is that it or something?

SPEAKER_00 25:34

Yes, they they memorize their student ID number, and so they can plug their student ID number into um the login field with our catalog, and they can do it in the branches or in this case online.

SPEAKER_02 25:48

So of the 200 yeah, let me just add of the 200 to 400,000 people, what level because I I really want to get a feel for when you talk about connectivity, you know, what percentage or what kind of numbers of connectivity would those people have? Because I know you have quite a range, right?

SPEAKER_00 26:12

We do, yes. Um, that is something that we learned very quickly that the digital divide was very, very prevalent. We had known that anecdotally, but COVID, of course, showed it with data. We are an urban, suburban, and rural county. So the city of Charleston, I would say, is very urban, but then we have these suburban, you know, little towns around, and then we have the rural areas. In the rural areas in particular, the connectivity is really bad. The broadband is non-existence in some places, and the only places where people can actually get um the internet is to go to the public library, and we're it for them for McClellanville, for Edistow, um, for Hollywood, St. Paul. We're it. Um, and then there's areas in between those that they have to travel 30 miles or 40 to get to their nearest library branch. And I'm I'm working on it, I'm working on more branches there or Wi-Fi points. Um, so we knew that we had to obviously keep the Wi-Fi on. So um we figured that probably about 20% of the population was not that that we served was not having access to the internet or have anything at home. Um, now the schools had deployed mobile devices and computers as they could to the students they could reach, but they fell out of touch with a lot of people. Yes, to the students, yes. CCSD did. So my children who were in CCSD, they were able to get like a laptop for my older child and an iPad for my younger child. And if we had needed it, we could have gotten a Wi-Fi device too, or there they had Wi-Fi um buses that they deployed to different areas so that you could go and you could sit on the bus or outside and use that. Um, what we figured out is, you know, obviously you can leave the Wi-Fi on on our buildings, and the Wi-Fi goes out really far in the parking lot. So we just let people know the Wi-Fi was on, and um we're fortunate that we are in the middle of a referendum and a big building project. So we had uh three new buildings with brand new wiring, brand new Wi-Fi, and everything. And um, the Wi-Fi stretched very far. And so we just broadcast that, you know, our buildings, the Wi-Fi is on. You're welcome to pull your car up and you know, sit in the parking lot. Um, unfortunately, the buildings aren't open for the bathroom or anything, but you know, our don't need a card or anything, just get on our Wi-Fi and you can use it. And that's what people did. So we were able to close the gap that way.

SPEAKER_02 28:52

So if I could just um ask, so you you you talked about the the demographics, but if I drove around Charleston County and I went past the library, would I just see a whole bunch of cars in the parking lots like day and night?

SPEAKER_00 29:07

Yes, we actually were strategic um because from a safety standpoint, we weren't really sure if we wanted to have folks there late at night. Technically, our Wi-Fi was on 24-7. We just didn't tell people that. We broadcasted as, you know, it are the building is operational at 8 to 8. And then we let um our security know and kind of local PD. And it's not that you know we didn't trust the public, but we from a safety standpoint, we weren't really comfortable with people in the dark, you know, because the lights tried, yeah. So we just really wanted to put some parameters on it to make sure that the public had a safe space. So during the day and the evening, um, we made it available.

SPEAKER_02 29:47

So the reason I ask about this is because I'm gonna I'm gonna switch gears, uh, uh take a little tangent and we'll come back. But you do live in an area that um is climate challenged, let's just say it that way. That you know, the the chance of natural disasters happening is rather significant. It's not a matter of if it's when in in Charleston. So what I'm wondering is how have the public libraries and the Charleston emergency management um organizations and whatever, do you have a common plan where the the broadband and the wireless uh is that the library is plugged into that? So if you know if there's a hurricane and then there's recovery, that they know they can rely on the public libraries for broadband services post-crisis.

SPEAKER_00 30:48

Well, we do now. COVID really crystallized that for us real fast. Um when I started in Charleston, it was very segmented. The library, for whatever reason, was really cut off from the rest of the county, and we were kind of seen as the stepchild, I think. And I I joke with counselors now, with um county council, like, you know, we're not the not the stepchild anymore. But um we we were just sort of an afterthought, but it's because no one had really shown return on investment um and what the library can do. And so we had gone through, I had mentioned this big referendum, you know, $104 million for new buildings and renovations, but no one had really quantified what that would do for the public. So when I came in, I was very quick to formalize that um how we serve the public. We have five focus areas um literacy, workforce development, educational success, um, community development, and equity. And those five focus areas are the way that we quantify what we do for the community. So anything that we do goes to those five channels, and that's how we show return on investment to our stakeholders, to the county council, to our board, to the public, to the staff, whoever. Um when you know COVID started winding down, I'm gonna ask your question working with county, um emergency management with the Charleston County Emergency Management Department uh was tagged with distributing COVID vaccines. And so I put my hand up and I talked to the director, that department, and said, We, the library, would love to help you with that. We could be distribution points for it. And at first he said, no, no, no, you know, we're we're gonna really rely on like the big box stores, and you know, but but thank you. Well, then I promise you, it was 24 hours later, he came to me and said, Does that offer still stand? Because we have no way to reach out to the rural areas. And what I think everyone started realizing very quickly was that there are no big box stores out in Hollywood, South Carolina, or Wad Malaw, or Adams Run, or Alwanda, or McCullumville. There's not a CVS, there's barely a doctor's office. If you need a prescription, you have to go into one of the municipalities, or you just don't get it. So there was a big push with South Carolina to get out to the rural areas, and my libraries were the only point of contact that Charleston County had in the rural areas, and so we pivoted very quickly. Um, county was coordinating with Feder Healthcare, which is a local healthcare organization. They handled the COVID vaccine, and um county and the library worked on you know transforming our libraries into vaccine distribution clinics, and we did several of those very, very early, and they were very successful. We um helped vaccinate thousands of people in you know fragile populations, and we had this this statistic blew my mind 100% return from the first shot. So the people that came for the first shot, they came for the second shot. So that was amazing. And we we were hoping for the high 90s, but for all the clinics that we did, 100 and 100% of the people were fully vaccinated. They came back, which was great. And we we helped with thousands.

SPEAKER_02 34:15

Yeah, you see, that's why when we talk about the new normal in our society, let's assume that the new normal, um, there are going to be crises that come up in communities and and but people haven't thought of libraries as leading or being major roles. Now, it's interesting, the federal FEMA regulations include libraries. It does include libraries, but there's no specifics on what libraries should do. There's no plan that says when there is a natural disaster, boom, you know, this is what the fire people do, this is what police do, this is what libraries do, this is what sewer does, whatever. But now we have that opportunity, don't we?

SPEAKER_00 35:02

Yes, I it's so funny, or just it was um very um nice to see that that opened up a lot of doors for the library with County because you know, and and I really respect the um emergency director. He's a great guy and he has a really big job. Um, and so whenever a hurricane hits, he's the one that has to coordinate all those things. So, you know, as we're standing there together, Jason, Pat, Noah, and I looking at um the vaccine clinics, I just said, I would love for us to continue partnering together. So if you have any ideas or think that we would be, you know, helpful, please leverage us. And I brought up hurricanes. I said, you know, in the next hurricane season, please think of how we can help you. And like he had already like jotted down all these things that we could help him with. So we were comparing notes and it was like information distribution and resource distribution. And um, he even asked, and I'm I am amenable to this, um, if we could be a FEMA site. Uh, of course, we had to turn over a library branch to FEMA to be a disaster center, but I would be very open to that if that is what was needed because we have centralized, very you know, strategically placed libraries around the community that would be helpful in some cases after a natural disaster like a hurricane. So we definitely talked through kind of what that would look like if we have to do that.

SPEAKER_02 36:24

Are you plugged in? I know you're plugged into the national uh public library groups, the American Library Association, and you said PLA and whatever. Um, are the directors and the county um leaders like yourself in library land around the country? Are they talking about this? Is this a major priority? Not just getting libraries back to where we were or reopened physically and whatever, but are they talking about a new normal of the role of the public library as the information institutionslash utility of every community?

SPEAKER_00 37:04

I think in certain cases, yes. Um, San Francisco um just opened up their libraries, I think today or yesterday, but like to be normal libraries. But they, um, and I know Michael, the city librarian there, he used to work at Charlotte as well. And um, he had switched his libraries to help with you know resource distribution throughout COVID, um, mass distribution, things like that. So they weren't offering traditional library services, but they were helping distribute resources around San Francisco, which was hugely beneficial. Um and he leveraged his library employees to help with those initiatives. So I think my sense is that piecemeal, this those conversations are happening and able to show it's work, it's not scary, it's a nor it's a natural thing for us to do, it keeps us relevant, honestly. Um, because we can't continue to be the library that we were before COVID, because you know, funding and needs have changed after that, and you know, you need to show that you can keep pace with um making sure that you're a viable resource for the community. And that was something I worked very hard on is showing return on investment um even through COVID.

SPEAKER_02 38:23

Yeah, it seems to me that you know, when we talk about infrastructure and uh, you know, the federal government's talking about infrastructure. I mean, the the information infrastructure in every community is the library. But there's nothing written down, at least that I'm aware of, that says, well, every public library and school library and academic or whatever provides these essential services and infrastructure parts that every community can rely on in normal times, uh, but in particular in times of crisis. And what an opportunity for us not to just add some things on, but to reimagine ourselves. Um, you know, if you've got experience at the Imagine, right? You know, to reimagine ourselves really as not just a place of people thinking, well, you know, I get my reading materials, or I can get my information materials, or it's a nice place to go, or the kids can go after school or whatever. But no, no, no. We are as essential as police and fire and you know, water and sewer during crisis situations and actually during every situation. It seems like an amazing opportunity. That's one of the reasons we started this podcast, because the new normal is that we're going to constantly need when we get over COVID, right? There's going to be something else. And hopefully it won't be for a while. But wouldn't it be great if this kind of coordination that you're doing with your person, that we don't have to reinvent that wheel in every community across the country or even the world?

SPEAKER_00 40:14

I absolutely agree. And I think we're all seeing that and taking some good best practices. Um after, and I think that success builds on more success. So after we help with the vaccine clinics, and you know, even before the vaccine clinics, you know, we had had a successful curbside campaign, and the county saw that we, you know, were Wi-Fi hubs. Um, we wrote a grant for the CARES funding, and um, we were able to get more mobile devices and more um laptops and things for um distribution and checkout. For Charleston, we didn't hardly have any of those, and then we were able to bump that up by over 300 laptops and 300 Wi-Fi's, which was great. Um, and people could check those out. And so County and the public saw these wins that we were having, and the library was just not a book warehouse, it was a community essential entity. So then I was tapped by um the community development office with Charleston County because Charleston County has the highest rate of evictions in the United States. North Charleston, yes, yes, that is um, I thought it was just South Carolina, but then I learned quickly, no, it's the United States. So North Charleston has a very specific couple of zip codes that though those are the highest level of evictions in the United States. So Charleston County received $12.4 million in CARES funding for rental assistance. But the department that's supposed to allocate this is only four people, and they don't have computers or any way to you know get to the community. And so that director called me and said, Can the library help? And I said, Absolutely. So now we are week three into helping with the rental assistance program for Charleston, South Carolina, and the application is 22 pages long from the federal government, and you have to upload all these documents, all these things. And so we developed a protocol to expedite it. It's still probably 90 minutes to do, but um, you know, we waived all the fees to print out things, we help people find the information. Usually it takes a couple of appointments because it's a lot, it's a lot of documentation, but um we have been able to help um upload, or they like well over 300 patrons have submitted applications. I don't know if they've all been accepted because we don't do the acceptance that goes through the Fed, but like we've helped well over 300 people, um, and it's probably more, those are just the last numbers I saw, um, submit those applications. And that's happening at almost every library.

SPEAKER_02 43:07

Yeah. Two questions related to it. One, how did the person who was the head of that agency or that organization know to call you?

SPEAKER_00 43:18

We are called department heads with Charleston County, and so we go to these department head meetings. And so the department head for emergency services and I stood up and talked about how you know we're running these federal healthcare clinics, they're gonna be at the library. And I remember people like looking at me like, at the library? I'm like, what? But it worked. And um, then that department head called me and said, I know that the federal clinics are one really well. We you've been such an asset. Is there any way that you could help us with rental assistance? And she was thinking, like, maybe like one or two. I'm like, you can have my entire library system help with this. And so she was thrilled because she thought. Right. Yeah. I think she thought that she didn't have the right to ask me or that I was going to say no. But I told her this is what we're built for, and that probably these patrons would be coming in anyway, asking for help. So we need to collaborate so that we kind of, you know, are on the same page with this.

SPEAKER_02 44:16

So so the these department heads and um the people um charged in the in various agencies and government are really starting to look at the library in a different way. This, I mean, again, COVID is tragic and it was a terrible thing. But, you know, as they say, you don't want to have a crisis go to waste, that some really amazing things have happened that can really long term help the citizens of your area and of course uh South Carolina and across the country, right? That there is a new normal. And the new normal is that whatever it takes related to information, libraries are there to help. Just gotta figure out.

SPEAKER_00 45:18

It needs to be what you make of it. So our new normal could have gone any which direction, but because we decided to take the reins and really help our community, that's helped us craft what our new normal looks like. And we're still very much a library, even though we're doing different things than we were a year ago.

SPEAKER_02 45:39

But you're redefining what a library is. I mean, we we've always known in the field, internally among us guild members, we've all known these libraries that have done amazing things. And you I remember, I don't know if it was North Carolina or South Carolina, there was a school library that used to um uh circulate prom dresses for kids that couldn't afford them. I always thought that was just such a perfect example of a library service that you wouldn't normally expect. That you go to the library to pick out a part. But of course, because they're so expensive and things, and it's just a really good example. And that um, yes, you're gonna we have to do those things. We have collections and we want to share resources and um information and a place, library's place is hugely important, but our world is so complex today, and it's really an information-centered world. You know, I live here in Seattle. You've taken half of our plane business now in Charleston, right? You've got this used Boeing thing. Well, a lot of the Boeing workers and people that live in your community are very used to amazing library services from the Seattle public and the King County library system. I'm sure they've put pressure on that, which they should and should expect it, but everybody's an information worker these days. And one thing that COVID, the the it's really the isolation and um, you know, the the being at home has shown us is that a lot of things we can do online and in virtual world, not that we want to move everybody to that and we're gonna be, you know, little future 1984, you know, Brave New World type folks. But there is a balance that's actually helpful, and libraries have a huge role to play in that.

SPEAKER_00 47:41

Yes. And I talked to David about this, but we really look at it as you know, how what platform do we need to serve our patrons on? Is it in person? Is it virtual? Is it a hybrid? Is it outreach? Is it community partnerships? You know, what is the platform that we need to serve them on? So we definitely think of as you know, libraries as a platform for the community need. And um another thing that um I think we'll definitely stick around is our newfound adaptability. As I'm sure you know, you know, long time library uh guru and you know, been in the field, librarians love doing things a certain way for forever and ever on end. And um whenever something new comes along, they want to kind of workshop it for weeks, if not months, if not longer, you know. And that was how I had operated was that you know, you need to kind of think through every angle. But with COVID, we had to move very quickly because every single week, if not you know, every single day, we had new information and we needed to move quickly. Um, when curbside became a thing, we knew we had to figure out those protocols immediately because we needed to get out to the public as soon as we could. We knew it was safe. And um, I didn't have the time to have people work through this, you know, like one month later, we launched this new initiative. It's like you guys have three days because it's Thursday, and by Monday, we're gonna take Sunday off, but like by Monday, we need to have this ready to launch. And they did. And um we have gotten very good at doing things faster, which is amazing because you know, and not to the point where we it's the quality suffers, but just that we're able to make decisions faster and we can beta test and move on. And if it doesn't work, then we just try something new, which is good.

SPEAKER_02 49:34

So part of the new normal is fast reaction, it's immediate reaction to unpredictable situation. And libraries haven't been leaders in that necessarily. You know, we we um we're not known for that necessarily, um technologically we we could be, and uh that's maybe one of our new things. It's interesting. Your background that you talked about, that you were an outreach person and you did you know community stuff, and then you work with the with youth. And and I think you said one of your core values is always bringing the library to the community. That the library is not in the building waiting for them passively to come to us, but that we have to get out there because they may they may not even know that what their needs may be, or that it's okay, like this person in the in the housing uh situation, that it's it's more than okay to go to libraries. Library is gonna help you with anything they can. And that to me is a change. How much of the public do you think is aware of the the when they think of library today? Would they say, well, you know, Charles would would they say to someone somewhere else, well, the Charleston library really did some amazing things during COVID. Um, how how widespread do you think is the knowledge of your innovation and and and your uh the things that you've done?

SPEAKER_00 51:11

Oh, I think our patrons and our county know us really well now. Um, we've had a lot of success in other areas, food literacy being one where we are a distribution point with um Low Country Food Bank. And once again, they use our libraries to help pass out free food and information for finding other resources in the rural areas and the urban areas. Um and we have a community fridges where we bought um industrial-sized refrigerators that have like the glass front that look like like a grocer. We put them in several of the rural libraries and there's fresh food in there. And people can come in and they can get whatever they want for free. And um, we restocked the fridge every couple of days because we have grant funding for that. Um, and food literacy was something that we never really thought about until we saw that there was an emerging need with um food insecurity in Charleston County, and we were offering snacks for our afterschool kids, but then we realized quickly it wasn't just the kids, it was the adults, it was whole families and areas. And it was very, it's very hard to ask for help. Um it's very hard, I think. And as a parent, it can be very, very hard to do. Um, so we just tried to remove as many barriers and to make it as easy as checking out a book. You know, you just go in to the library and you can pick up your book, you can pick up some fresh produce, it doesn't matter, like there's no stigma, anyone can get it, and that's really helped break down some barriers. So we're we're known um as this accessible community resource now and helping folks. Um, and it you know really has emerged over the last couple of years that that's been happening.

SPEAKER_02 53:03

So, well, you know, we we were supposed to only talk for uh 20 to 30 minutes. We've already gone on for over 40. Yanni's gonna give me a hard time, but uh not really.

SPEAKER_00 53:13

Yanni's gotta edit this.

SPEAKER_02 53:16

Well, maybe, maybe not. Maybe we'll split it into two because it's just so interesting, and there's so much more that I really want to ask. I think one of the things we'll do is to have you back when Dave's here too, so we can uh delve some deeper into some things. But let me just uh what what what is on your mind? What is on your horizon that you have that maybe you know you've got in the back of your mind that you're going to do next, or um how how you think about where where we're going.

SPEAKER_00 53:49

Well, you know, we just launched our strategic vision for the next three years, and that's those five focus areas, and we're really focusing on equity. And um, we were able to launch um an equity, diversity, and inclusion staff advisory committee, which is great, and we're doing a top-to-bottom policy review. And Charleston, this has been a long time coming for us. Our policies have never really gone through revision, like they've you know been created and like tacked on and edited, but nothing really like um cohesive. But that that happens in institutions, but we don't have a youth policy, you know, and we need to have one. Um, and so there's some things though that because of our new role in the community, we need to refresh our policy and how we you know approach partnerships and outreach and serving our patrons, not just in our buildings, because all of our policies center on serving the public in our buildings. But we need to create policies and not restrictive ones, but just to keep it consistent so we're fair and um that you know we have an assessment methodology in place so that we're not always working with the same organizations, even if it's working, you know, kind of spread the access around. Um, that's what we have realized that you know we can really help bolster another organization very quickly because of our we have 18 locations and you know, we have plans to build more later, and we're all over in very accessible points of the community. So that's a resource that we need to be equitable with. That um, of course, we have strong partnership with the school and with food literacy, but you know, where are other organizations that would benefit from our partnership that we could help get their resources out? And how are we assessing that need and how are we making sure that um we're spreading our that resource of us around equitably around Charleston County? So equity is on my mind a lot. Um, racial equity, gender equity, community equity, all of that.

SPEAKER_02 55:54

And and equal access to information. I mean, that's uh that I mean it's uh it almost is even more basic than education. We talk about equal access to education and equal opportunity, but education needs information. If education, you don't have it, if the school libraries may not be as developed, or the partnerships with the school libraries. When I was a school librarian, um, you know, it always bothered me that my collection, which was better than the public library collection for my high school kids, sat there all summer long. You know, it was just interpassable. Well, we arranged to take our whole fiction and biography collection and to give it to the public library for the summer. And then we got it back in the fall. You know, just that kind of thing. Because I mean, the ideal is we want every book off the shelves every night, and then we want them all back magically the next day or after the loan or whatever. The point is to make it as accessible as possible. And it seems like um, particularly reaching out to your rural communities and your underserved communities, that there may not even be organizations in those communities. So it may be a need to help to grow organizations or to fill the void, right? Um or you know, working with police, with fire departments.

SPEAKER_00 57:17

Oh, yes, yes. Um we have learned that, you know, folks in the rural areas and other areas, they would love to start like small businesses and things, but they just may not know how to do that. So we are working, you know, helping people with business development plans and how to apply for grants and loans and things like that. Um, when that was never really on the table because they didn't know that we were a resource until they came to our vaccine clinic. And so and we were able to sign our toilet cards, which was great. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:50

That stuff is so, you know, I used to go around and talk to rotary groups and and business groups about all the free resources that they're probably paying for that they get through the libraries through their database access and stuff like that. And then I was amazed how many didn't have cards, and I had the librarians with me, and they, you know, signed it right up then and whatever. But yes, I mean, there's such opportunity. And again, I I mean, let me just ask one last question. Do you think that we're going back 100% to the way it was pre-COVID in terms of uh virtual life and uh physical life that we're gonna, you know, if we could get this all behind us and we'll just kind of erase this last year and we'll go back to the way things were. I mean, is that gonna happen? Is that realistic? Is that desirable? No.

SPEAKER_00 58:43

No, I don't think it's realistic at all. And I'm not really sure it's desirable. Uh, because again, I will never ever say that we needed to have COVID, but I will say that we needed to see the lessons that COVID presented to us. And um, like you were saying, one of my favorite sayings is never waste a good crisis. Um, just like you said earlier, like that's one of my absolute favorite things. And so I was kind of you know chanting that to myself throughout the last year, like never waste a good crisis. And um, we took the learning moments um to identify the gaps in our services with digital equity, with um access points, with awareness. Um, I think what has been an interesting exercise for my library team, and I love my library staff, they're wonderful. Um, I think it's been really eye-opening for them with the rental assistance program, where they thought that maybe a certain type of person was going to apply for this, but it's across the board. You know, COVID has been hard, and people have not been able to pay their rent or mortgages for a while, some folks. And so again, just like with the um food, literacy, food access, there was, you know, no judgment. Anyone can come in and we will help you fill an application. And it doesn't matter if you live in a half a million dollar house and you're about to have a foreclosure, or you live in a $300 apartment, you know, per month and you know you're doing back rent, like we're gonna sit there and help you and treat you the same because we understand that you know it the need is the same, no matter what your frequency is. And that's that's a good way to be.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:24

Yeah, and that's you're right. It's across the board, it cuts across all uh you know ways that you divide and uh slice up the community. Every member of the community has things like that, whether they're old or young, uh whatever nationality or ethnic group or gender or or situation. So I I agree. The thing is that you know, um people are gonna have to look at the library and support the library in a different way. And by and by people, I mean I mean the government and whatever. I mean, just getting broadband alone across, we all realize now that you know we've talked about it for for almost 30 years. We've been talking about you know disseminating e-rate and and telecom and what but this is not this is not optional. It wasn't then, but it's really not optional now. Yeah. Well, Angela, this has been absolutely amazing. It's exactly what Dave and I wanted to start talking about with Libraries Lead, the new normal. Because we, you know, we live and breathe like you do, libraries. We just see the essentialness of it, that we don't take a backseat to anybody in terms of making a difference and and being successful. We're not optional because information is not optional. And the kind of services you're providing. I mean, you're saving lives every day uh in your libraries. And that's that's awesome. And uh I thank you. If you think of things that we can do, uh let us know. We'll try. I I wish you the best. And uh I'm in awe. I just uh and when I get to Charleston next time, I'm definitely gonna make sure I get a nice uh tourism. Give us a show.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:15

We'll give you a tour. We'll get you some seafood and you know, take you out in the boat. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:21

Well, there's that. But it's also just meeting some of these, you know, the people in your staff and whatever, and and and seeing some of these places. I'd love to go into a parking lot where people are sitting in their cars wireless doing that for when I used to travel, that's what I would do. You know, I'd find a public library and sit in the biggest uh you know with our phones. But I again I thank you and um uh I wish you the best and safety. And thanks for sh sharing your time with us and uh doing such great stuff.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:54

Well, thank you so much, Michael. It was an honor, and um, I just really appreciate the work you're doing, and thank you for documenting all of this. This is gonna be good to listen to later. Okay. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:06

I'll send you the link. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:08

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:30

Well, welcome back, everybody. And again, I want to thank Angela Craig. That was uh that was an incredible interview. It gives me so much to think about, and I am really uh awestruck by it. Uh, but now we move on to our last segment, which is the awesome library thingy. Dave, what have you got for us in terms of awesome library stuff?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:53

Well, the reason I love this podcast so much, Mike, is that I get to see you rant and rave, and it's just it's a beautiful thing. You truly have mastered it. And so uh a couple of a couple of episodes ago, you were ranting about the elitism of universities and how they need to be more accessible and this idea that somehow we're only letting in this the cream of the crop. And so um I was reading along um going through the news the other day, and I came across this amazing article via The Atlantic. I'll send it out on the webpage and on our Facebook group, but you're gonna love it. It is titled How College Became a Ruthless Competition Divorced from Learning. And then the subtitle it says, It is a truth universally acknowledged that elite parents in possessions of excellent jobs want to get their kids into college. Now, what I love about this article is I mean, it won't really, you know, the idea that they're elite and the idea that, you know, the privilege get people in the privilege programs, and you know, it's a somewhat familiar, really well put story. But what I loved about it is it actually begins by talking about, you know, Mr. Darcy and the whole wedding scheme of the 1800s. The idea that it used to be that when you had these elite landowners with acquired wealth, it was, you know, in pride and prejudice and such, it was who you married. It was, you know, as the landowner, you had to marry a good wife who would help you in your position. And if you know had to marry a landowner, it was and what there really goes through is this this it created a marketplace of elites looking for a life event that would further them. And the idea is that now we've reversed it now, where but it's still the life event is no longer getting married, it's going to the right school, and it's an elite marketplace. And while anyone could go to school, just like anyone could get married before, there's a limited number that you want to get to and that you want to connect into. And it's just it's a remarkable, remarkable piece because it begins with this idea. Of sort of the gentried elite of England in the time when the ultimate ultimate status symbol was not working, to now the elite of the US, where the symbol is how much you work, but we still have this life experience that if you have to go to the right school to get the right relationship, to get the right job, to continue this system of separation. And so once again, I love your rants, but this one was a rant that could cite, you know, pride and prejudice. It was very impressive. But it's a great article, and I think it very much speaks to uh what you're talking about. How do we make people available and open and how do we look at this differently and then the elite degrees and just this continuous stratification of society and get back to the idea that this is about education and preparation of running society, not simply continuing the power structure?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:57

Right. And that's what libraries have all always been about, right? Uh, providing education and opportunity for everyone. Um, I agree with that. I heard a podcast and I'll put it on the resources list as well. Uh, Scott Galloway was talking about this. That why is Harvard University a nonprofit? Um, Harvard University doesn't benefit all of society. Uh Harvard University benefits those that is elitist and whatever, and they have, you know, tens of billions of dollars in endowment. Why do we subsidize Harvard with uh uh you know nonprofit status and the other private schools that are not open to everyone and uh pride themselves in only admitting 2% of applicants? So yeah, I'm very much with you. Okay, well, that's that's certainly uh awesome and worth thinking about.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:56

What's your what's your awesome library thingy, Mike?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:00

My awesome library thinking, uh again, I'm maybe it's a cop out, but I have to go back and to praise Angela Craig and the Charleston County Public Library. Um I just really uh I I think it would be unfair to uh to bring another awesome library thingy up in the same the same podcast, because the range of services that they are providing for their community, uh broadband and wireless services, particularly during uh natural disasters, the hurricanes and the pandemic, a food bank with a refrigerated food bank that people could just come in and take things, vaccination sites, and then the the rental assistance events that was coordinating with the social services. I mean, it really is a model of the new normal library. I was thinking of it as the information backstop for the community. Maybe that's a tagline. You know, Dave, I like to think in terms of uh advertising for good, for good purposes. And so my tagline might be we're the Charleston County Public Library System, and we've got your back for all things information. And really, that's what they do, and coordinating with the emergency management folks, coordinating with government, reaching out wherever it might be in in the community, whatever that need might be. I did this vision of people sitting in parking lots in the middle of the night doing, you know, using the wireless and other things. So really, my awesome library thingy was what, and and you're very familiar with it, um, what's going on in Charleston, and and maybe you want to just add some of the other things. Uh oh, I was gonna ask you to just talk a little about the education program for library staff as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:59

Yeah, I I had the the great um that was really what it made some of my time at South Carolina amazing was looking at these great libraries and an alumnus. Um we have a lot of alumni throughout that system, and Angela is one of our alumni. And um what's amazing about that program, not just keep talking about it, but she's come in and they she's got good infrastructure, but she's she has in particular really pushed that group to be innovative, try new things, try again, and really take on a national mantle uh in doing that. And we've been um helpful, so they're working on the country's largest construction issue, overdo over um renovating all of their different branch libraries, and they're ending up with some space. And so they're looking at how we can work with the university and have joint space so we can do joint professional development activities, we can do pop-up libraries, we can do experimentation. And um they've been working with a faculty member of mine, Jennifer Arnes, and a great staff member, Liz Hartnett, and they put together um professional development for their library staff, uh their non-librarians, to get them not just into the task, but really into the heart of why we're doing this as librarians. What are the values and connecting? And so they're looking to create a really strong ladder, particularly for diverse workforce coming from people just starting out, um, library aides, all the way up, getting their library degrees. And then she's even working really hard to make sure that there's actually a pretty good positive turnover in the administrative ranks, meaning she wants people to come in, be innovative, go crazy, get famous, and go lead other libraries because that's going to give make room for the next great person. And um, we're we're glad to be a part of that. But um, she's a big driver.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:53

Yeah. Yeah, it's an amazing, amazing system. The whole thing is just you know that upward spiral of uh of innovation and and meeting needs. So yeah. Well, so that was my uh awesome library thingy. Uh, Dave, if you want to wrap it up for us for this podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:12

I want to thank our listeners. I want to thank Mike. I want to thank Angela Craig, our guest for this podcast. I want to thank Yanni of A Chicago Events, who is our producer and really makes the sound work on this. Um, Ace Chicago Events for production services, including sound design and events. Please look them up at ashicagoevents.com. Please subscribe to us or rate us on Apple, iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify, or wherever you listen to a podcast. And we would love a good thumbs up from you. We are now should be around the world. And if we're not, let us know and we'll get there. If you have some ideas or feedback or want to join us at some point, please contact us via email. Our email is info, I-n-f o info at librarieslead.org or our Facebook group, Libraries Lead in the New Normal. Uh, we'll be back here next week ranting about something else and really talking about our continued striving for dominance of the world through librarianship. And uh thanks, Mike. Have a great week. Thanks, Dave. You take care.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:16

Bye now.