When the World Shakes: Why Crisis Reveals the Real Leader

The leadership qualities that emerge when uncertainty, pressure, and adversity test everything you believe.

Every generation experiences moments that shake the world. Today, those moments seem to be coming faster than ever.

Wildfires devastate communities. Floods erase neighborhoods overnight. Earthquakes remind us how fragile our foundations really are. Economic uncertainty, cyberattacks, political instability, and global conflict have become part of our daily reality.

While most leaders will never coordinate disaster relief, every leader will eventually face a crisis of their own.

The loss of a key executive.
A failed product launch.
A major client walking away.
A merger that collapses.
An unexpected disruption that changes everything overnight.

In those moments, people aren't simply evaluating your decisions—they're evaluating your leadership.

In this episode of Mainline Executive Coaching ACT, Rich Baron and Maikel Bailey explore one of leadership's most important truths:

Crisis doesn't create leadership—it reveals it.

Leaders, Lead Well!

Thank you to all of our listeners in over 140 countries and 1,600 cities worldwide, we greatly appreciate your support! We truly hope that what we bring to our listeners will improve your ability as leaders.

Mainline Executive Coaching ACT has been recognized by FeedSpot as one of the top Executive Coaching Podcast in the world based on thousands of podcasts on the web and ranked by traffic, social media, followers & freshness.

https://blog.feedspot.com/executive_coaching_podcasts/

John Mattone Global:                                                                                                          https://johnmattone.com/

Rich Baron:
rbaron@richbaronexecutivecoaching.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/rich-baron/
rich@johnmattone.com

Maikel Bailey:
mbailey@intelligentleadershipec.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/maikelbailey/
https://maikelbailey.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Welcome. Thank you for joining today. This is Mainline Executive Coaching. ACT. We are ready to roll. We hope that you are as well. And let's get on this. Today we've got something that's going to affect both you leaders and your cultures. That's what it is. ACT and cultural transformation. We're going to be talking about some leaders that quickly or over time were very effective in their ability to change their culture so that they not only became a great culture, but they surmounted impossible odds, impossible situations that normally you'd find leaders just crumbling and the whole thing would fall apart and cause great damage. So we've got three leaders that we picked out here. We're going to share them with you. I am here on with Rich Barron, my partner, and I'm Michael Bailey, mainline executive coaching ACT. Rich, let's take it from here. Leaders, tough times, tough situations, but they rise to the top.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

They rise to the top. And I, you know, Michael, I think if we look around the world right now, there's things going on everywhere. There's crisis everywhere. And you know what? Every single generation, no matter who they are, experiences moments that shake their world, right? It shakes the world. Right now we're seeing here in Utah, where we're at, you know, wildfires that are really uh have created um the biggest wildfires in the history of the state, created a lot of real big problems. We saw recently um the earthquakes in in Venezuela, and our hearts go out to these people, absolutely do. Um hurricanes, name it. Everything that we we've seen over the last few years, there have been all sorts of uh issues, including wars, economic uncertainties, cyber attacks, uh global conflicts. Every day we hear something, right? One thing they don't talk too much about is droughts. Droughts. Oh, we're in a horrible drought here in the West. Yeah. Even in Europe. Yeah. Droughts. Uh these these things that that you know shake us to our core. And here's the thing that no matter who you are, no matter where you are, sound of our voice, if you're a leader or in in any situation, nobody, no one is immune from crisis. It's gonna happen. It doesn't matter. And if if you're in business, you know what can happen even in business, and you know, executive leadership, or the leaders of countries, or the leaders of um small towns, even, or regions where a lot of these issues are going on. It takes somebody to step up and be that leader, or be prepared to lead through these situations. You never know when these things are gonna hit, right?

SPEAKER_00 3:10

Never know that that that's the that's the amazing thing about it. Yeah, we don't know, and that's why we we we gotta have, we need, we must have great leaders.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

You know, uh who are these people?

SPEAKER_00 3:23

I mean, we're gonna talk about some specific ones, but generally speaking, how would you start to recognize somebody who has who is or has the potential to become truly a great leader? What are they doing differently than the other ones who have leadership positions?

SPEAKER_01 3:39

I think this is this is an important question. This is an uh really important question because under pressure, these leaders that suddenly come out of nowhere, they're not somebody that's some they become someone new. It's like, oh, we got this new guy that's really taken, you know, over. It really is those who they're already there, they already exhibit a lot of these this potential. Uh they're calm. You know, they they don't fear things, you know, they they plan ahead, they're hum uh they're uh humble, humble. Uh they they collaborate with people, they surround themselves with effective um individuals who can manage these things. They trust, they don't have egos. That ego goes out the window. Um, and that that's one of the things that we see. Pressure reveals character. These people are already in place, they're the ones that when things get tough, that's when they start to shine because they're already in that place. It's not that they've they've just jumped into there. We recognize them by who they already are.

SPEAKER_00 4:59

Exactly. They're doing things differently than the other people. They're going through some sort of preparation for the tough times, the challenging times, the really hard and maybe even impossible times. Preparation. They just don't suddenly become calm. They have been practicing calm, they aren't suddenly humble, they've been practicing humility, they aren't suddenly connected with other people so that they can collaborate with them. They've been practicing that all along. They've been doing certain kinds of characteristics or values that we talk about. They've been practicing those though, so when the pressure is on, they can indeed perform. So it's not like out of nowhere they're gonna draw on their strengths, draw on these great virtues. Those are already in place, ready to go. Ready to go. Let's talk about the whether go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 5:51

Oh, I'm just saying, you know, the it's it's a crisis that starts to truly reveal who these people are. Yeah, it reveals their true character, and vice versa. It reveals the ones that are not ready to to be there or shouldn't be there, or are there for the accolades, if you will. Yes, the accoutrements.

SPEAKER_00 6:13

That's right. Just the good times.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

Yeah, just the good times, but it's a crisis that really reveals these true leaders.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

You know what this reminds me of? It reminds me of athletes. Yes, that practice, that practicing under pressure. Uh, they developed this kind of we call muscle memory. So when the situation pops up, the pressure pops up, things are closing in, the walls are closing in, it's just looks like you got more and more of a crisis or emergency or a really difficult situation. That muscle memory is already in place, ready to go. Now, you've been in sports, you know about muscle memory. You're you've been a musician, you know about muscle memory. You know, when you have a hot house to play, and all of a sudden you're feeling a little bit like I don't know if they got what it takes to play to this big of an audience. If you can either focus on the fear, or you can focus on your training, your practice, your muscle memory, trust it, not question it, and now roll forward. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:16

And interesting you say that. These people who reveal who they truly are under pressure, you know, whether it's that musician or that that phenomenal athlete, and you see them make this great play, or you go to a concert and you hear this phenomenal musicianship. That came from hours and hours and hours of practice doing the same thing over and over and over again until it became second nature, not something that just happened out of the blue. I'm sure there's you know, some people gotten lucky that way, but most times there is no luck, there is no coincidence, it's preparation, it's mindset.

SPEAKER_00 8:09

It really is. Yeah, and so if you're out there listening to our podcast today and you're wondering where do you get the time to do this? How do you do it? How do you know to do it? That's why we're here talking to you today. Yeah. Again, those leaders are doing something different, they're doing things differently than most of the leaders that you see in your organization, even in your cities, your towns, your certainly your governments, you know, the way we've got the people, you know, amazing. They're doing something different. We want to take a look at what they are doing and ask yourself. It's an interesting thing. A man doesn't really reveal himself when he's just going about his daily life, you might say, when he's doing his job. Same thing with a woman. They don't really reveal themselves in terms of who they really are. But you know when you find out who they really are, is when they have nothing to do. Yeah. When they what do they occupy their minds with when they don't have something to do? I want you to think about that, listeners out there. When you don't have anything to do, what do you occupy your mind with? Is it entertainment? Is it just silly thoughts? Is it just going zoning out? What is it you entertain your mind with? I'm gonna tell you the people that are serious about leadership and becoming great leaders, they take that time and they put it to good use. Yes. They're doing stuff, but the very things we're talking about here, they're that practice, they're in that preparation. That's why you see, you know, young musicians, they carry around, for instance, a keyboard, they carry a guitar with them. So when they've got a few minutes, they pull it out and they're banging on the keyboard or the strum of the guitar, or whatever it is, or a drummer pulls out his drumsticks or her drumsticks, starts tapping away at that stuff. That's that mindset of I'm learning, I'm growing, this is important to me. So whenever I get a moment, I'm gonna do something. Same things with kids that are in soccer, they take their freaking soccer balls with them wherever they go.

SPEAKER_01 10:09

Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:10

Leaders, what do you do? What are you taking with you? So when you have those moments, you can practice.

SPEAKER_01 10:16

Here's the interesting thing, too, then this just came to mind. These people who are these great leaders and great athletes and whatever, they're constantly reading, they're constantly studying, they're constantly benchmarking themselves against great greatness. Others who are great before them. What can I do to be that person? And here's the interesting thing is you're never gonna be that person. You can benchmark yourself against the greatest leaders or the greatest musicians or the greatest athletes or greatest artists, whatever. You're never gonna be that person. But what reveals itself is your own uh uh abilities, your own skills, your own talents, because now you're you're practicing on those. And you're this benchmarking, you know, it's like everybody I love David Gilmore. I love Pink Floyd. Uh I I really do. I love, I love to watch the way David Gilmore plays. And it's it's if you go out there on YouTube, there are I don't know how many hundreds of people out there that are showing their skills playing Pink Floyd songs. Here's the interesting thing they're all great in their own way, but they'll never be David Gilmore. But that doesn't matter. That doesn't matter if you're never going to be the next David Gilmore or the next greatest foot uh soccer player, football player, whatever that is. But you they're constantly learning, constantly expanding, constantly growing, constantly practicing. That's who they are.

SPEAKER_00 12:04

That's exactly right. Let's talk about our first example here. Captain Chelsea Sully Sullenberg, excuse me. Uh, miracle of the river Hudson. Oh, yeah. Hudson River Miracle, excuse me, back in 2009. Let's talk about that. What happened?

SPEAKER_01 12:24

You know, this is this is uh 2009, right? It's middle winter, and um takes off um from New New York's LaGuardia Airport, right? A full plane with passengers, U.S. Airways takes off, and right after they get in the air, they struck a flock of Canadian geese. Right to a flock of Canadian geese, and it took out both engines. Both engines fell, just destroyed both engines. Okay, so he's still over the city, right? They're still over the over New York. What do you do? You know, what do you do? And and here's the thing is if in in the end, you know where he landed. He landed that airplane on the Hudson River. But it was those four minutes. There were four minutes from the time the geese hit the the the engines till they went in in the water, right? 240 seconds. Break it down that 240 seconds. That was it. And but yet he never panicked. And you know, if you listen to the cockpit recordings, they say he never panicked, he never his voice never changed, he wasn't yelling, there was no blame. Um, and here's the thing it wasn't just him. You've got to give his co-pilot as much credit because they worked together as a team back and forth, and and Sully knew exactly what to tell him, and his co-pilot knew exactly what to what to do when he told her. And they brought it down safe. No one, no lives lost.

SPEAKER_00 14:20

Yeah, and in that process of making that decision, figuring out what to do, the options that they were looking at, essentially they had three options. They could what return to LaGuardia, which would seem like let's go back to where we can get to, or you could let's divert to Teterborough, another airport, we go there. Those would seem like the places that we got to go, because that's gonna be a safe place. Third one, water landing. That would be the most difficult one to say, well, we can have a lot of hope, but we can make it back to LaGuardia or go there and make it to Peterborough. But the fact is, as they examined it, they realized even those were enticing and the best kind of ways to land, not possible. We're going down and we're taking it into the water. How hard would that be to face that reality and knowing what it's gonna be like to hit that water, get these people out of the plane, and do it safely? Could you really make it? Would you not break up with the hopefully the plane doesn't sink in the water?

SPEAKER_01 15:23

Yeah. And here's the thing: what if you had a panicked and it became all about self-preservation? I got to get to one of these other airports. The ones that were there were two other there was LaGuardia, going back to LaGuardia, and then there was diverting to Tearborough. Exactly. What if he had panicked and it was became self-preservation and said, I've got to land this plane? You know, he wouldn't have never made it. And what would have happened because of that?

SPEAKER_00 15:52

And the other part of that is this since he remained calm and did not panic, that had an effect on everyone in the airplane. Yeah. That calmness communicated confidence that we've got it. We're gonna get this, we're gonna get through this, it's gonna be okay. We're gonna make it. You're all going to survive, and we're gonna come out of it just fine. May get a little wet, granted, may not be quite the landing that we want, but we're gonna be okay. That's what he communicated with him having the what? The practice of calmness under pressure.

SPEAKER_01 16:27

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it would they they tried to prove afterwards that he was at fault. He could have made it. I think there was there was a a time in, you know, uh a trial, and they would try to prove that he could have made it, and he, you know, through him proving to them no, we couldn't have. And they finally he was finally exonerated. You made the best choice. The others, you you would have never made it. And how many people on the ground would have been killed? Not just the people in the plane.

SPEAKER_00 17:02

Exactly. It's always interesting, the naysayers, the Monday morning quarterbacks out there for coming with their expertise and their knowledge, and second guess people, you know, like Sully. It's it's just amazing to me. So his calmness not only did it in terms of he and his co-pilot working together, probably also was a calm man as they worked out this problem, making the decisions after the analysis, then communicated to the people there, the passengers, this is what's going to happen, and doing it in a way that they picked it up and they stayed calm. Yeah. Can you give me a better definition or example of leadership? No. And you know what he did afterwards?

SPEAKER_01 17:46

Even though he was himself was suffering from hypothermia, from the cold, from the water and stuff like that, because he'd gone back in and was looking for people, making sure everybody was out of the plane. He refused to go to the hospital. He stayed there to make sure everybody was still okay. You know, so it wasn't just a one-and-done. His concerns weren't for himself ever. Those people that he was leading at that point. Yeah, a remarkable man. Yep, absolutely. And that's that's the the example around minutes or set seconds, right? 240. What about what about around months? Things that take months.

SPEAKER_00 18:28

Another tough one we've got here for you.

SPEAKER_01 18:30

Yeah, tell us about this one.

SPEAKER_00 18:32

This is one that uh you may have heard of before. It's about James Shackleton and a boat called Ernest Shackleton. Ernest, thank you. That's right. Ernest Shackleton. You're right, thank you. Um, and a ship called the Endurance, and they had a mission. That mission was to cross the Antarctic and Antarctica and to get to the other side, to be the first people that actually did that. So they took off, they went down there to the Antarctica, and uh their ship got trapped in the ice. Yeah, and so they couldn't keep going ahead. Eventually, that ship got crushed to some degree, and uh they were now out there stranded, over 800 miles away from anybody. They did back in the day they had no radio, they had no communication, they had no phones. There was no way they could communicate to anybody that they needed to be rescued. They were on their own. And what was the likelihood to survive for how long out there on the Antarctica ice? That's what it is, it's all ice. That's all that is out there. So, for two years, he and his men, 27 of his men, had to face this unimaginable, and I would imagine unimaginable kind of hardship. And eventually they get away. Yeah, and how did they do it? Let's talk, take a look at that. What did they do? What was the leadership that that Ernest Shackleton brought to it?

SPEAKER_01 19:56

You know, here's the thing. They were they were on that ship for two months, or for months, not two months, but months until ice crushed the ship, right? And then there was 27 men, along with himself, that you know, they had to, they had to cross ice, they had to build uh a boat, a lifeboat, and sell this thing 800 miles, 800 miles in a homemade lifeboat in the oceans around Antarctica and made it. Made it. Every single member of the expedition survived. You know what kills me, Michael, is you see these things on TV, like that, uh, some of these things called alone. And I I love I love watching that series where they get like 10 people and they send them up to some of the harshest conditions, places uh Arctic Circle or you know, wherever, and they separate them and they have to survive on their own. They're allowed to bring just a couple items, like 10 items, or you know, whatever that is. They have to they have to survive. Many of them don't make it a day, many don't make it a week. And some of the ones that survive, you know, they end up making it like a hundred days, and they're just emaciated by the time they get to that 100 days. We're talking the Antarctica and Antarctica with 27 people on the ice, and they all lived. Two years. Two years.

SPEAKER_00 21:37

That that is uh it's an unimaginable uh feat of of leadership and so one of the things that points that's like we're pointing out here is this that these leaders, as we heard the first time with uh Schoenaburger, Schellenberger, they didn't become emotional. No, they didn't lose their cool. Stayed calm. Now, you know, for 2,000 uh excuse me, 200 minutes, excuse me, 200 seconds or so, that's hard. But over a period of a number of months, over two years, how would you do that? How are you feeding these men? How are you keeping them warm? How are you getting somehow that they don't lose their morale, their their their hope? How do you do that? And that's one of the things that he did. He did focus on morale. How do I keep these men going? How do I keep them uh operating here? And so one of the things that he did is that uh this is really this is really interesting. He rotated sleeping arrangements. Now that's really interesting. Why would that be so important that you're rotating the sleeping arrangements?

SPEAKER_01 22:46

It's a change in scenery, as small as it might be.

SPEAKER_00 22:51

Maybe that. There may be some accommodations that were better than others.

SPEAKER_01 22:54

Yeah, or warmer than others.

SPEAKER_00 22:57

Yeah, it might be. Yeah, and there might be situations where uh we had to have some people on guard or whatever it is just to watch out what's going on. But he is attempting to make it survivable for everyone, not just a few. He probably gave up his cabin or whatever it is that he had that he could have had the best accommodations, right? But he's switching that around. The other thing he did was he's looking for the small victories. You've talked a lot about this in terms of teams. Sometimes a team can go along for a year or two and not have any successes. What do they got to do? With that new manager comes in, or that new um leader comes in, supervisor comes in. What is it they got to do to help turn that turn that group around?

SPEAKER_01 23:39

Yeah. And and that's a great question. If you have a team in your business or in your company, ask them, tell me about your your your wins. Whatever that might be. Those, and it could be some small wins, small victories. But there are they will definitely tell you about that versus not having any at all and stagnant. That's an issue. But if you're you you have these small victories, wow, you know, it's another milestone we got past. And this is one of those things that's that's so critical that is not mentioned here, Michael. That these small victories might have been small goals, milestones that they were trying to achieve. But it wasn't the milestone that they celebrated. There's they're gonna celebrate these victories. But what got them to those small victories? It's what they learned how to survive. We survived this long, it's another small victory. What are we gonna apply that we learned to the next victory and the next victory? And I guarantee over that two-year time, they learned more about survival to the point where they were ready to build this raft and sell across 800 miles of open ocean. They already had learned not a lot about themselves, but how to how to provide. What do we have to do to win? I you know, if you think back, what would have happened if they just took off and sailed right then after their ship was crushed? Would they have made it? Would they have really truly learned about you know these small victories? Who who knows? That's you know, speculation, but or or out of work in a new way.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

Out of work in a new way together, yeah. That's right, that's right. So the small victories, the small victories may have been uh building that raft, but step by step by step, how do you how do you build a raft that's gonna hold 28 people on it for how many days travel 800 miles over very treacherous oceans? How do you actually do that? That in itself is a remarkable feat. Now, one of the things it seems like that one of the things that he kept going here was he kept routines going. Yeah, it would be very easy to sit back. I don't want to get up this morning, it's too cold. I mean Antarctica, right? It's too cold. I don't want to face the winds, the chills, just the snow. I don't want to face the bleakness of the terrain, I don't want to face the bleakness of we have no hope. But it was the routines that kept their minds focused, that kept them doing stuff, keep them going forward, taking care of each other. That mental discipline is no small thing. They were talking about it in Antarctica in a survival situation, but leaders, what about your teams? What about your people that work for you? What are the routines that keep them moving forward? Yep. That give them hope, that give them keeps their morale up, to help them to see that here's the wind that we got this week, or here's several wins that we got this week. Look at the miles that we're making in terms of just getting ahead with our projects. Do you focus on those things? Do you help them see them to celebrate them? Are you there with them to buoy them up to help them see that we're doing great stuff here? Are you doing those kinds of things? What happens when you do that? There's something that's really interesting that happens. Don't you gain new hope?

SPEAKER_01 27:06

Absolutely. And that's the one thing that uh he did. He protected that hope, right? Getting new hope. But here's one thing that's not mentioned here, Michael. And I guarantee, as a matter of fact, I know he did. He had surrounded himself with a select group of people to go on this expedition. He tapped into the skills and talents of all of these people to survive. It wasn't just his leadership. He was coordinating the team, right? But yet he was tapping into the skills and talents and abilities of the people on his team, the people he surrounded himself with that got him to that point. Which is a really novel idea, right? How many organizations do we know, or leaders that know, have no clue about the very skills, talents, and abilities of the people they lead?

SPEAKER_00 28:04

That's tremendous. That is a tremendous question because that untapped talent, that untapped potential is really what holds them back, not only in terms of performance, but also in terms of morale. Yeah. Morale of the team. People don't feel like, well, nobody sees me, nobody appreciates what it is it can bring, nobody really knows who I am. They're not give me a chance to you know show what it is that I've got. You do that, you're you're really, you are really destroying the team. You're really destroying what it is that you're there to do. So the question that you you're really posing here is this leaders, how do you get to really know who your team is? What their real talents are, what their real potential is. Do you take the time to do that? What do you do? What would you what would you suggest? Somebody says, I know there's more potential here, I just don't know how to get it. Rich, if you were sitting down at a table with them, what would you say? Well, here's what I'd suggest.

SPEAKER_01 29:00

Here's one of the things that I think is missed so often in organizations is you have these leaders and you have the teams, right? How often are these people actually sitting down with them and having open conversation, getting feedback, giving feedback? We one of the things we we've talked about, Michael, is you know, and I'm I know that we're both on the same page here, very big professional disdain around annual reviews.

SPEAKER_00 29:35

I hoped you were gonna bring that up.

SPEAKER_01 29:37

Oh my gosh. You know, let's okay, here we go. Annual review time. Everybody gets scared because you don't know what's coming, because and you know, I might just I might throw you a bone, I might say you're great, or I might throw you under the bus. Here's the thing: if your people have no clue what's coming before an annual review, how can you sit there and tell me or anybody else you know your people? If that annual review is simply not a summary of every conversation you've had the previous year, previous two years, previous three years, whatever that might be, that that culmination up to that certain point, seeing people continually to progress. How are you gonna get to know your people if you're not if you don't have ways of measuring, you know, measure, measure, and course correct. How many times we we teach that? How do you measure excellence? How do you measure progress? How do you measure transformation? You if you're not doing that, and you're not having these one-on-one conversations throughout the the time, whatever interval you do, but it needs to be fairly regular. That's how you get to know your people.

SPEAKER_00 31:11

And you know what you're really doing when you when you do it the way you're not doing it the way you suggest, the way to do it very conscientiously and uh very deliberately. You're really setting your people up for failure. Yeah. That's what you're really doing. And you're also creating a culture of discouragement because they really don't know what's going to become. It's kind of like going to the principal's office and you're not sure why the principal wants to talk to you. If you don't really work with them and prep them, and it's not just like, well, let's grade you now, but it's an actual conversation of reporting and discussing, discussing and feedback, interaction with each other about how that really works. What are you doing there? Yeah. What have you really done to help that person really become successful, not only be successful, but feel successful and feel that they are a part of the team?

SPEAKER_01 31:59

Exactly. And here's another thing, Michael. Do you know anything about the process that you're leading? Do you? Or were you just put into that place because you were a great individual contributor somewhere else? You know, one of the greatest lessons I learned around this before we get into our next example. You know, I showed up years ago in Nashville as a young studio musician, okay. Thinking I was all that, I was ready to go. You know, I was felt pretty confident with my abilities until you start getting in and working with some of these other studio musicians, okay. And you know what? They took me inside and said, You're doing great, but listen to this, don't listen to that. Play to this, don't play to that. And it it changed my entire mindset. Okay. And then you know when you start listening to the results, it it it's it's eye-opening. If you don't have the ability to sit down and really talk about the process that you're leading, whatever that might be, you need to take the time to learn it yourself so you can have these intelligent conversations around that. Be able to direct people in how to get better. Not just give them feedback, but give them pointers, train them effectively. You know what is Shackleton too? He he protected hope. Rotated sleeping arrangements, focused on morale.

SPEAKER_00 33:42

And these two are an interesting contrast in terms of what we're talking about here. Uh Solerberg really needed to know the machine, he needed to understand how the machine worked. Yeah. Maybe since he knew how the machine worked, he felt that he was in control. He and his co-pilot, they were in control because they were in control of how the machine worked, knew how to get it into the water without sinking it. They were then able to then go and work with the people. And what you're saying here, know your processes, know what it is that you're doing here so that you can't work effectively with the people. On the other hand, what we've got here with with Shackleton was he knew people. Yeah. He was in an unknown territory, and uh he was in an unknown situation. Yeah. But he knew the people. And that's the key thing. As you take a look at these leaders that know processes, know their job, know the business that they're doing, but ultimately what it will be coming down to to a large extent is how well do you know your people? How well do you know how to work with your people? Because if you got you know how to work with your people, get the best out of them, and they interestingly enough, know how to get the best out of you. You can probably take on a lot, a lot of tasks that you just could not even begin to imagine that you could, which really leads us into the next one here about Admiral James Stockdale, Hanoi Hilton.

SPEAKER_01 35:07

So now we've gone from seconds to minutes, I mean to to months, which which is you know, two years, 24 months with Shackleton. Now we're talking about years, years with Stockdale. Eight. Yeah, years. And if you know anything about Admiral James Stockdale. Excuse me, seven years, seven years, yes. Yeah, seven years. If you know anything about his story, um he was the highest ranking military officer that was held prisoner in the Henoi Hilton. Not only that, he was one of the very first that was was put there, one of the very first shot down over Vietnam as a pilot. And what they had to endure, repeated torture, solitary confinement, uh these this unimagined unimaginable psychological abuse that they endured every day. You know, there there are videos of these guys being put in front of cameras and being able forced to say, yeah, we're doing okay, right? Yeah, we're we're we're holding up. But here's the thing what made Stockdale different? And if you read anything about, you know, his his story, that when he was shot down, and he was actually floating down to the ground in his parachute, one of the things that he said, and it was then I decided that no matter what happened from here till the end, which no one knew what the end was, I was gonna do whatever it takes to get through. No matter what. It was then he decided. And throughout this time, the Hanoi Hilton, you know, Michael, um, there were several other American POWs there. They developed this way to bolster each other up, keep each other going. Many times they were just separated by cells through a wall. They hadn't seen they sometimes didn't see each other for uh months on end, some cases years. But they were still able to communicate every single day. Keep going, how are you doing? I'm here to support you. Whatever that might have been.

SPEAKER_00 37:45

Yeah, see, one of the things that I like about the relating uh this particular case study, you might say, Yeah, is this he made that determination that no matter what it took, he was going to survive. Yeah. Now that's that's an interesting thing. He didn't pull that out of the air. That's something that he probably lived by anyway. He put a lot of effort over many years in just being tough minded, just being able to focus, not get distracted, not get caught up in his anxieties, his worries, his wild imaginations. It's something that he disciplined himself for all those years because, as you very well laid out, one of the things that I mean, the communication thing that was amazing, uh, how they kept each other's morale going and so on and so forth. Um one of the things I find really impressive is how did they teach each other to recover from torture? How do you how do you help somebody through that? How do you I mean you you I mean, they're not only whipping you, they're they're doing all sorts of psychological things to you, as they as you said. Um but they were breaking bones. Oh yeah. They're breaking ribs, they were breaking legs. They were just they were they were doing whatever the whole point of this, of what they were doing at Han Oi Hilton was to break these men. Yeah. That's what they wanted to do. Weird, sadistic, cruel, animalistic. Who would go in and do this kind of stuff? I saw an interview with one of the guys that was at the Han Oi Hilton. There's a very interesting, interesting interview. They go in and they'd hang him by his arms. Oh. And they would whip him and they would cut him, and they would go on and on and on. They did this day after day after day after day. There was the same, they always had the same person torturing them. So that person knew them very well. Of course, they were being observed as this was going on, so that the observers or the handlers give to give the torturer feedback. And this one fellow said, There was one day I went in there, very interesting, and they hung me up by my arms, and I'm hanging there, and my arms, you know, pulled out of the joints and all this stuff like that. And the guy just started torturing him, and he said, The man who was being tortured said, I didn't feel anything. There was no pain, there was no anguish, there was nothing. And as this man became more and more became more and more frustrated because he couldn't bring out any pain, any misery to him, at some point he got so frustrated he just started screaming. Screaming because he couldn't do this, and he ran out. He ran out. That's very interesting to me. That the other side of that whole thing is this when we're causing other people pain, somewhere inside of us, we know that we're doing that.

SPEAKER_01 40:50

Yeah, we're not.

SPEAKER_00 40:52

Yeah, when we're when we're not helping people, when we're causing their lives to be worse or have more misery, or more anxiety, or more shame, or more sense of you know, lower self-esteem. When we're doing that, we know that. We know that we're doing that, and it has an effect on us. And eventually it will catch up to us. Yeah. So there's some great lessons to be learned here. Absolutely. And that one of the lessons that I'm seeing, and I'd like to get your uh your feedback on this, is learning how people support each other.

SPEAKER_01 41:29

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:31

Rather than tearing each other apart.

SPEAKER_01 41:34

Well, and and I think in many ways, is is first off, uh I think accepting that reality without surrendering hope. Accept the reality that you're in. And that's what Stockdale said in many ways. Um, when Jim Collins asked him who didn't survive, and he said it was the optimists. Who, you know, they kept saying, We're gonna be out by Christmas, we're gonna be out by Easter, we're gonna be out by Thanksgiving. And when that didn't happen, they died of a broken heart. Literally, that's what killed them. Um, and so here's the thing unrealistic short-term goals are not gonna get you there.

SPEAKER_00 42:17

Unrealistic and unsubstantiated.

SPEAKER_01 42:19

Unsubstantiated short-term goals that don't uh are are just you know wisps, you know, grabbing the carrot. So I think that the the lesson here, Michael, is is to maybe answer your question. In in order to really maintain who we are as leaders and not get this frustrated, start yelling and and blaming others or you know, abandoning our own hope because whatever. I I think acknowledging the reality, honestly acknowledging the situation you're in, don't sugarcoat it. You know, people people want trust, they want transparency. And if you're sugarcoating something and it happens something different, then that's not good.

SPEAKER_00 43:09

Um and then along with that, yeah, along with that, retaining or maintaining this absolute faith that you will prevail.

SPEAKER_01 43:20

You will prevail, yeah. And if you have that faith that you're gonna prevail, others will see that in you, and they'll get a want to follow.

SPEAKER_00 43:30

That's right. So, leaders, as you take a look at your situation, do you have that kind of absolute faith? Yeah, you retain it, do you maintain it that you will eventually prevail no matter the difficulties you face? Yeah, challenges, no matter what. You're you're just that guy, you're just that gal that can lead and not only say it, but believe it and live it.

SPEAKER_01 43:51

Yeah, absolutely. So I think the point here is we get ready to wrap up, Michael. Crisis representation. Reveals the leader. No matter what happens in your life, and it doesn't matter whether you're a leader, doesn't matter if it's a marriage, doesn't matter if what it is, you we can pick this apart for hours. You're gonna get you're gonna hit a crisis, they're gonna hit a speed bump. There's gonna be something that that is gonna throw you off your game. But here's the thing is it you in order to maintain that, like you said, absolute faith that you can get to the end. And that really comes from do you have faith in yourself? Have you prepared yourself effectively to to face these situations? Are you in the right place for the right reason at the right time? Same way you're gonna put other people in that place, I think. Um being pessimistic, that's not gonna help. No, that that won't help. Um false optimism, like we said, that's not leadership, not being transparent about this the real situation. And I think in the end, um, although it's gonna be incredibly difficult, here's one thing I can promise you, and I know Michael will say the same thing. If you keep your head down and you get you push through this and you count on the people around you that you've surrounded yourself with that are they're gonna follow you through this, you're gonna come out the other side of this. And when you do, you're gonna never go back again because you're gonna always be aware of what brought you there in the first place. That's gonna be a lifelong lesson that you can keep. On the other hand, if you give up or you're not ready at all, and you throw in the towel, what what have you done? What if what if Solenberger had thrown in the towel and said, I'm going to Teterborough? Or Shackleton had thrown in the towel and just said, Oh my gosh, our ship just sunk. The ice crushed it, we're done, we're doomed. Or Stockdale uh gave in to the the torturing. We're not gonna make it out of here, guys. We're just not gonna make it.

SPEAKER_00 46:21

And that's why we have heroes, because they don't do that.

SPEAKER_01 46:25

Yeah, why we have heroes, yeah. So are leaders the real heroes?

SPEAKER_00 46:30

It can be.

SPEAKER_01 46:31

Or are heroes real leaders?

SPEAKER_00 46:35

Well, they can be the informal heroes that become the that's right, yeah, yeah. That's right. That's exactly right. So, all right. Just a quick I'm gonna just run through these really quickly here. Check it off, leaders. You remain calm under extreme pressure. Do you do that? Do you accept reality without panic? Yeah, you inspire confidence through your own example, do you put the needs of others before yourselves? Do you make decisions rooted in values rather than fear? Do you understand that leadership is as much about managing emotions as it is about managing events?

SPEAKER_01 47:13

Events. That's that's amazing. Managing emotions. Managing events.

SPEAKER_00 47:20

It's not what happens to you, it's what you do. Yeah. We've probably heard that a thousand times. Yeah. Question are, folks, are you living it? Now, let's go just take a moment here. How can we help them? What is it that we do that can help people move to this place that we've been discussing today? What does JMG offer?

SPEAKER_01 47:41

Here's one of the things that that we offer. We really focus on who you are at your inner core first. Do you have what are your strengths? What are your gaps? Let's find that out and and let's build on that. Let's find out what those real strengths that you have are, and maybe the gaps you know that you can really start leading to that are gonna help you even stronger. We can help you learn those things. And then how how does that, how does your inner core really impact those around us? How do we show up on the outer core? And there's an interesting thing here, Michael. I want to point this out. When we talk about inner core, we talk about who you are, what made you there, your your upbringing, uh, all these things, um, your your education, beliefs, values, all these things who make you who you are, right? But those combine with elements of character. And the one thing I want to point out, if you look at these three examples, courage, persistence, integrity, humility, all of these things are elements of character that everyone these three guys that we just talked about exhibited those under pressure. Not just when they said they had it, they were able to pull that out under pressure. And that's really what we want to help you find. That's what we do as coaches. And then beyond that, how how do you use that to impact and transform not only yourself, but the people around you and your organizations? That's the goal, right?

SPEAKER_00 49:28

Absolutely, and I love the way that you said that. How do you take these and transform the people that you're working with, the organization that you're working with, your team? It's not transactional. That's what you want to get. Character is not transactional, these were not transactional examples of leadership, these were transformational leaders, transformational events and experiences. Yes. There's the difference.

SPEAKER_01 49:57

That's the difference.

SPEAKER_00 49:58

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 49:59

We want to help you get there, and we can. All right. And if you want to find out how to get there, you're going to reach out to Michael. Uh Michael Bailey.com, right? M-A-I-K-E-L Bailey.com. Um, you can reach out to me at richbaron executive coaching.com or uh John Matone Global. You can find us both on the John Matone Global website. Uh, LinkedIn is always a great place to find us. So, you know, no shortage of ways to communicate. And if anything, if anything, it's worth a conversation. Conversation.

SPEAKER_00 50:42

Yeah, I I agree. That's well said. It always begins with conversation.

SPEAKER_01 50:46

Yeah. And here's the thing, it's not about you becoming the best leader you can be. That's all that's part of it. That's part of it. It's about you becoming the best servant leader that you can, and the legacy that you can leave behind.

SPEAKER_00 51:05

There it is. There it is, exactly. Thank you, Rich. Well said.

SPEAKER_01 51:11

All right. A quick shout out. Uh Islamabad, new new city here. Folks, new listeners.

SPEAKER_00 51:21

Pretty cool that we're uh we've got that kind of reach that that's going on here. Um I had another one here, and I just and I can't find it right off. It's in Minnesota. Sorry about that. Somewhere in Minnesota, there's somebody that just tuned into us lately. Is it Chaska? Was it thank you so much, Chaska? Yeah, that's the one I'm looking for.

SPEAKER_01 51:42

Yes. Welcome, Chaska. And so again, at the end of uh this episode, mainline executive coaching ACT, that says act, and it's also on cultural transformation. You have to you have to act to get all these things done, right? And there is there's issues all around the world. We see it every single day. The fact is that we as a people are responsible to help each other out. That's how we get through these things. Regardless of what our abilities are, we can help others get through these things. So be that servant leader, keep each other safe. And until next time, Michael Leaders lead well.