Grunge

# Grunge

## Episode Info
- **Episode**: S03E94
- **Title**: Grunge
- **Original Air Date**: March 2026
- **Duration**: 1 hour, 26 minutes

## Episode Summary
Steve and Windham throw on their imaginary flannel and build a Perfect Album Side for grunge, focusing on the songs, videos, soundtrack moments, and closers that defined the genre’s brief but massive takeover. Along the way they talk about how grunge steamrolled hair metal, salute David Hudson and *State of Amorica*, and argue through what really belongs under the grunge umbrella.

## Topics Covered
- How grunge disrupted late-80s hair metal almost overnight
- The Seattle scene, Sub Pop, and the anti-corporate identity of grunge
- Why Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, and Alice in Chains became the center of the movement
- The role of movie soundtracks and MTV in making grunge unavoidable
- The gray area of “is this actually grunge?” with bands like Stone Temple Pilots, Smashing Pumpkins, Sonic Youth, and The Breeders
- The emotional weight of Andrew Wood’s legacy in songs by Temple of the Dog and Alice in Chains

## Deep Dives
- **Temple of the Dog – "Say Hello 2 Heaven"** as a tribute to Andrew Wood and a statement opening track
- **Pearl Jam – "Jeremy"** as the era’s defining music video juggernaut
- **Alice in Chains – "Would?"** and the *Singles* soundtrack as central grunge artifacts
- **Soundgarden – "Outshined"** in *True Romance* and the wider movie-soundtrack moment
- The case for outliers and neighboring acts like The Breeders’ "Cannonball" and Stone Temple Pilots’ "Plush"
- **Nirvana – "Rape Me"** and the band’s role in making the whole grunge explosion possible in the first place

## Fun Facts & Highlights
- The episode quickly escalates into a George Costanza-style block-of-cheese visual.
- Steve realizes he no longer owns any flannel shirts, which leads to the instant fake-band name **Final Flannel**.
- There’s a heartfelt shoutout to David Hudson and Ian Rice of *State of Amorica*, with David’s exit from the mic helping inspire the episode.
- The guys keep circling back to the same glorious grunge question: was the music the revolution, or was it also the look, the attitude, and the backlash to purple sequined jackets?
- Andrew Wood’s shadow hangs over the episode in a meaningful way, with multiple songs tied back to him.

## Referenced Artists, Songs & Content
- Temple of the Dog
- Pearl Jam
- Alice in Chains
- Soundgarden
- Nirvana
- Stone Temple Pilots
- The Breeders
- Sonic Youth
- Smashing Pumpkins
- Mudhoney
- Screaming Trees
- Mother Love Bone
- Chris Cornell
- Eddie Vedder
- Kurt Cobain
- Andrew Wood
- "Say Hello 2 Heaven"
- "Jeremy"
- "Would?"
- "Outshined"
- "Cannonball"
- "Plush"
- "Rape Me"
- "Smells Like Teen Spirit"
- "Hunger Strike"
- *Singles*
- *True Romance*
- *State of Amorica*

## Episode Takeaway
Grunge wasn’t just a sound—it was a correction, a mood, a look, and a cultural hard left turn. This episode works because Steve and Wyndham don’t just list songs; they capture why this music felt like a detonation when it arrived.

One idea.  Six songs.  Infinite possibilities...

Transcript

Cold Open And Friday Banter

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Wait a minute, these guys are doing it in flannel. Why the hell is somebody wearing a purple uh sequin jacket?

SPEAKER_05 0:06

Welcome to the perfect album side. One idea, six songs, infinite possibilities.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

My name is Steve. His name is Windham. The show has begun now. Wyndham, hello.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

The show must go on. The show has begun. Happy, happy day. Happy Friday. Uh happy Friday to you. It's stuck. For a minute there, I was trying to think. Do we do we say what day it is? But it's Friday. It's Friday.

SPEAKER_01 0:53

It's Friday. Um, you know, I don't know what day this album album? Album Perfect Album Side. Oh no. Perfect Album Side will be released on probably later tonight or tomorrow or Sunday or Monday. Let's just see how lazy I am. That's what we'll find out. But how are you, man?

SPEAKER_00 1:10

I'm great. Just cruising, man.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Okay. Little large. You still got those kids?

SPEAKER_00 1:16

Oh shit. Oh god, this is awkward. I do. I do have those kids. It's something to get used to. You know, we've had three kids in the house for so long. Now two of them are in college. One of them's in Europe. And now there's only one left. And he's going to visit my older son in college this weekend. So house to yourself.

SPEAKER_01 1:38

Walk around naked eating a block of cheese. George Costanza style.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

Oh, right. Now that they're not here, I guess I could eat a block of cheese.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

Your wife will still be there. The other stuff I do already. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:49

Well.

Grunge Theme And Listener Setup

New Black Crowes Album Check-In

SPEAKER_01 1:50

That's a great point. Um about you. How are those kids? Are they driving yet in college? No, no. They're uh they're younger. They're considerably younger. Uh much like I am with you. They're they're younger. So uh you and I are the same age. Well, that's not accurate. Uh really? How old are you? All right. Today's perfect album side. I never get to do that. I can't believe I just worked out transition. Uh today. I I know we got a few other things to talk about before we get to today's perfect album side, but I want to let the listeners know. I tweeted just a couple hours ago saying, hey everybody, we're putting out a perfect album side, we're recording a perfect album side episode tonight. Um I completely lost my train of thought. We're recording a perfect album episode tonight, and I tweeted out, hey, what are you guys thinking? I'll just go ahead and get and get the cat out of let the cat out of the bag. Uh, this episode is all about grunge. Yes. The wonderful, weird, uh angry guitar smashing grunge scene from 1990 to 1994 or 5, depending on who you ask. Uh stemming out of Seattle. We'll talk more about that uh in a second. Uh a couple of things I wanted to talk to you about and to all of our listeners. You know, I love the Black Crows. The Black Crows have a new album out. Came out uh like a week ago. Um, I've listened to this thing, you know, maybe 10 times. Uh it's it's good, it's not great, but it's good. I like it. I mean, it's it's better than me being a huge Black Crows fan. I'm excited to hear new music. It's not as good as the album they put out right before that one, though. Have you had a chance to listen to it?

SPEAKER_00 3:30

Yeah, I have. In fact, that's so funny. I was gonna ask you of the two latest records.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

Yeah, I like your preference. Uh Happiness Bastards, the one that came out before this one came out. It's been almost a couple of years now, but that one is in my mind, I like it a little bit better than this new one. But maybe it's just because I haven't gotten to know this new one well enough yet. You know, sometimes I have to listen to something 20 or 30 times before I'm like, yeah, okay, I'm in. I get it.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

Yeah, I'm I'm the same way. I like I like Happiness Bastards better. Um, but it's probably because I haven't gotten into this one. It took me a while to uh to get into Happiness Bastards, so but I still think it's great. Uh Profane Prophecy. I love that song you and I have talked about it. It's got a stones feel. It was one of their early releases that they put out. But I'm getting into the album. I don't think it's bad by any. Don't get me wrong.

SPEAKER_01 4:18

I I think it's a a good album, very good. I think everybody should listen to it. You know, if you like the black crows, you'll like the album. Uh it's it's good. It's just I like the last one better. Um that's it for the black crows. You, I think, had something to say about that.

SPEAKER_00 4:33

Yeah, speaking of the black crows, uh, there is a wonderful podcast out there. Uh and normally I would make a quip about it not being as good as ours, but unfortunately I'm not gonna say that because this one is an exceptional podcast. It's called The State of Amorica. And uh Steve and I know those guys pretty well. David Hudson and Ian Rice, two phenomenal individuals, and we really have enjoyed their influence. We've enjoyed their podcast. And David Hudson, um, who is on par with Steve Tatum as far as being a bona fide elite level Crows fan, uh he's announced that he's hanging up the mic. And we just wanted to wish David well. We wanted to say thank you, Huddy, for what you mean to our podcast, what you've done for our podcast. And uh man, the the industry, the pod industry, Stone Cold, is losing a great one. But we wish him well and all that's in front of him. And we know Ian, uh, who's also great at what he does, will carry on the torch of the state of America um for the time being, and it's in good hands. But I just wanted to say thanks to Huddy for uh being such a major dude to our podcast and the two of us.

Grunge Vs Hair Metal Whiplash

SPEAKER_01 5:45

Yeah, uh David Hudson and Ian Rice, State of America, were were uh in all uh truthfulness, were inspirational to us to start this podcast. We thought, well, if if those two guys can do it, I'm sure that we could do it. Uh speaking uh of David Hudson and the State of Amorica podcast, it was David Hudson that reached out to me like three or four weeks ago, or maybe five weeks ago at this point and said, Hey, you know what you guys haven't done, what you ought to do, is an episode about grunge and full circle. Here we are recording uh our grunge episode uh a day or two after David has announced his departure. So uh, Huddy, this one's for you. Uh let's get into it then. Today's perfect album side, all about grunge. Man, get your flannels on. You know what's funny about that is in all honesty, I went upstairs to get a flannel because I was gonna wear it for this event. Uh, it turns out I don't own any more flannel shirts. I guess my final flannel shirt went out the window a year ago. Final flannel? Final flannel, what a great band name.

SPEAKER_00 6:40

That is a cool band name. Oh my gosh, that's what I was gonna say. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 6:44

Final flannel. That's our new band. Uh so for those of you that were too old or too young or weren't there, I mean, this is this is in the prime of our lives, Wendham. When we were 15 to 20 years old, uh Grunge comes onto the scene. You know, it was kind of born out of the late 80s, but really took shape uh 1991. I know that we're gonna talk about a lot of the artists. I'm not gonna mention them, you know, all by name now, but you know, obviously the Seattle scene, uh a huge part of this movement. The the sub pop um record label that signed all of these bands. Um, you know, that that one album and that one song that everybody knows about, which wouldn't surprise me if we talk about today, that really set the scene uh for grunge. I was thinking about something, Wyndham, and I wanted to get your take on it before we get started. Yeah. And and people have talked this to death. So I don't think we're breaking a whole lot of new ground, but I was thinking about 1988, 1989, 1990, about what was on the radio, what was on MTV, right up until that one album hit and grunge showed up on the scene. And I was thinking about Bon Jovi, and I'm thinking about Firehouse and Trickster and Slaughter and Poison and every one of those, you know, White Lion, Warrant, uh, Cinderella, all of these, and I hate to use the phrase, but we're gonna do it anyway. All the hairbands, yeah, all of those are at the height of their popularity. I mean, that that is mainstream rock and roll at that. It in in late 1990 and early 1991, that is still at the top of the mountain. And it wasn't until that one album broke and that one single came out and everything changed, it seemed like overnight.

SPEAKER_00 8:30

Yeah, talk about just a massive momentum of a music genre coming to an uh not, I wouldn't say a halt, but had the entire music industry in the palm of its hand. Right? The G and R, all those great bands you just mentioned, they were going crazy. And it was like it wasn't the makeup glam band, it was the hair metal, right? Like you said. But it was everything was going forward for them, and uh it just came to a stop. Why? Because grunge just jumped right in front of it.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

Yeah, it was um, you know, you think about just I'm gonna use Bon Jovi as an example. I mean, a year or two before Grunge breaks, you think about the Lay Your Hands on Me video and John Bon Jovi shooting up out of the stage, and Richie Sambora's wearing a full-length sequined purple uh trench coat on stage, and there's fireworks and pyrotechnics and giant stages. And that's like that's the height of this hairband, glam metal, whatever you want to call it. I mean, these guys are they're on this massive stage with sequins and shit and headbands and whatnot. And then all of a sudden, this grunge movement happens, the Seattle scene breaks, and all of that is almost comical. Like everybody kind of looked at it and went, wait a minute, these guys are doing it in flannel. Why the hell is somebody wearing a purple uh sequin jacket? That makes no sense.

SPEAKER_00 9:57

Yeah, and so I I love where your head's at right now. What a cool, what a cool intro to this. Uh, very thought-provoking. But think about what all those guys in Seattle, okay? We're gonna talk about this, but a lot of these bands knew each other. Yeah. Okay, and hung out together. Uh and they were also already in the Seattle music scene during this hairband era that you're talking about. And I'm just wondering, like, what's going on in those conversations? Does anyone look around and be like, man, what are they doing? What are they wearing? You look around the room and there's drab, you know, there's there's I I just have red flannel, red lumberjack-looking flannel shirts. Uh uh, what do you call the little hats, those the uh toboggan hats? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:47

I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 10:48

But you know what I mean? Like, are they sitting around going like, man, we do not look like that. We will never make it big because we don't look like that.

SPEAKER_01 10:54

Well, but I think that was by design. You know, it was it was very anti-corporate rock, anti-whatever was popular. It had to be indie to be cool. And then all of a sudden, they were the coolest thing in the world. Uh so it, you know, it's a little bit ironic in that you know, everything they were doing was anti-establishment, full of angst, full of flannel, full of uh Seattle roast coffee beans, uh, and you know, shunning uh MTV, shunning big stages, shunning playing in arenas, shunning, you know, high ticket prices, shunning all those things, and then fast forward a year, and they are that.

SPEAKER_00 11:34

So who influenced who? You had the grunge movement, you had the hairband movement of the late 80s. Okay, almost like the uh the greasers and the socies. My daughter's reading The Outsiders as We Speak.

SPEAKER_01 11:51

Oh, Ezra Hinton, man. A story of youth and belonging. Can't can't go wrong. She's luring about Pony Boy and Soda Pop. It's good stuff.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

43 years old this week. The movie debuted this week.

SPEAKER_01 12:03

Wow! Unbelievable. The outsiders. Who knew that the outsiders would get such play on this episode of the perfect album inside podcast? Essie Hinton is not talked about on a lot of podcasts these days, but here we are. He's not talked about enough, and maybe not at all.

SPEAKER_00 12:16

But who who influenced who? Did did do you think I know I know the answer because we've kind of led up to this answer. Did the grunge movement influence the hairband movement to say we got to do it more like that? Or was it the other way around? Did do you think grunge kind of said, well, we need to start looking a little bit like that?

SPEAKER_01 12:34

Every single one of those hairbands, I take it back, not every single one of them, but a lot of them changed their look and their cut their hair, cut their hairs, they started wearing, you know, a lot less sequin jumpsuits and you know, more black t-shirts, and they started growing goatees, and they so I think that it was definitely they saw the writing on the wall, hey, the music industry has changed very rapidly. If we want to keep making money and keep uh selling out uh theaters and arenas, we better shift a little bit too. And they did, and unfortunately for them, very few of them did it well, if any. Yeah. Now, several of those bands survived, the big ones survived, but a lot of them that I named off earlier, this killed them off.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

Well, there's there's something else part of this that we haven't addressed yet, and I'm not gonna say it because I want to wait until we get to that um particular category of what we're talking about today. One of this is and this is a good sing uh PAS singles topic, right? I want to know have there been uh has there been another uh complete just crash of two different musical genres running into each other the way this did? And what was the outcome of that?

SPEAKER_01 13:53

That's a good question, and I think we'll we'll we'll uh we'll debate that on a future topic.

SPEAKER_00 13:58

On a future topic.

Rules For Building The Album Side

SPEAKER_01 14:00

I look forward to that. But for today, but for today. We are building the perfect album side of grunge. Now I want to be clear on a few things. This building the perfect album side of grunge does not mean, hey, give me the six most important grunge songs. That's probably been done a thousand times. That's not what we're doing. We're building the perfect album side, and as you regular listeners know, there's normally structure involved with how we build out, you know, like the best of a certain year or the best of a certain genre or the best of a certain topic. Uh for today, it's no different. We have we chose the what we considered to be the most iconic album opener, opening song from an album by a grunge band. Uh, the most iconic video of the grunge era. Uh I brought one, Wyndham brought one, we'll debate it. Uh the most iconic song that was on a movie soundtrack of the grunge era. Uh, the most iconic song sung by a female lead singer of the grunge era. Uh uh a wild card, any song, any grunge artist, whatever you think goes. Uh, and then last but not least, the album closer. Uh, the the most important or the most iconic album closing song by a grunge artist. Is that what you have? Is that what you did?

SPEAKER_00 15:15

That's what I wrote down. That is what I have. That's what I did. That's what I wrote down. I want to know if you think we're gonna run into is that grunge?

SPEAKER_01 15:26

I I that's literally the first thing I wanted to talk to you about was neither one of us did a really good job of uh defining when grunge was, what it was, how it was. I mean, we we have a pretty good idea. Hell, we lived through it. Uh-huh. I mean, the the very first band I was in was a grunge band. Um, so you know, I think we have an understanding, but there are gonna be some bands, I bet that we talk about. I know on my perfect album side that I'm gonna get yelled at by the grunge police. Somebody's gonna go, hey, they're not a grunge band. And and they may be right, but I but I will assure you of this: they came to be where they were because of grunge. The the the crater that grunge left in the ground took up a whole lot of neighborhood, if you know what I mean. So, you know, there are probably four or five really big bands that are from Seattle that are part of the, you know, that that's really grunge. But I got a couple bands that are not from Seattle, and that maybe came out maybe a little bit before or a little bit after. It was important to me that we were talking about some of the bands that were uh responsible for uh obviously the the the the grunge movement, but some that came immediately after that, some that were developed because of it, and then some of the bands, uh, one or two of mine were like the inspiration for what became grunge. So I I kind of covered a little uh a bigger time frame, maybe 1989 to 1995.

SPEAKER_00 16:49

Yeah, I I you know, and I'm gonna get into this as we go forward, but uh I ran into a couple of as I was looking through a lot of music, as we always do on the perfect album side podcast. I ran into some some some groups that I said that that may be all rock. And is is alt-rock automatically grunge? Um I ran into some glam. There was one I took off, right? Hit the hit what you said earlier from Seattle, literally born out of the grunge movement, but I took it off this morning. So I can't wait to talk about that one.

Album Openers And The Grunge Border

SPEAKER_01 17:30

It should be an interesting uh perfect downside. I have the unenviable task of going first. The first uh category that we selected was album opener. Um, and here's a really good example. I I uh this one, there's gonna be people people that tell that swear up and down this is not a grunge band. And I get that. They're not from Seattle. This song came out a little later than the rest of them. But as far as album openers and bands that I consider part of the grunge movement, uh, this one made all the sense in the world to me, but I'm sure I will be raked over the coals for it. The smatching pumpkins, Cherubrock is the name of the song. So I wanted to let it play off the vocals kick in. It's a little longer than I thought. Um Cherubrock Smashing Pumpkins off of the Siamese Dream album. It is track one, the album opener, uh, released June 21st, 1993. So we're uh two or three years into the grunge movement by the time this one comes out. Uh, recorded at Triclops Studios in Marietta, Georgia, my former hometown. Let me turn this down just a notch, if you don't mind. Uh songwriter Billy Corgan, uh lead singer of Smashing Pumpkins. Uh the interesting thing is it was produced by Billy Corgan and Butch Vig. Uh Butch Vig went on became famous for being the producer of Nevermind by uh Nirvana, which we might mention later. Um hit number seven on the Billboard Alternative Airplay, number 23 on Billboard Mainstream Rock, and number 31 in the UK. The Grammy nomination for Best Hard Rock Performance, and just a huge opening song that announces its presence and the album with authority. Um probably my favorite song by this band. Like I said, it it might catch some shit from people from maybe they're a grunge band, maybe they're not. What do you think?

SPEAKER_00 20:29

Uh I I I looked at the um I I I I looked at this band. Um I I yeah, I mean to me they are, and this record was everything in 1992. I mean, uh how many massive radio hits 1993, or 93, excuse me, June to 93. This was a massive, massive record. 1979 was on this record, I believe. I think so.

SPEAKER_01 21:00

Um, and yeah, I mean Sunday's Dream is a great album. Um it's the question is does this qualify as grudge? They're not. I think it's Seattle, they're not from Seattle, not that that matters, but and the biggest thing, we talked about Butch Big, the producer. This album is one of the most produced albums you'll ever hear. I mean, all the layered guitars. Now, this the recording session was notorious for being just perfectionism by Billy Corgan. They were spent, you know, just take after take after take and layering guitars, layering vocals, uh, you know, getting the drum track absolutely perfect, which flew in the face of everything that came out of 1990 and 1991, 92. Grunge Movement, which was a sloppy garage band, in your face, aggressive guitar smashing, drum crashing. Mess. And then these guys come along and have the nerve to play your guitars and spend months in the studio building this.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

Yeah, this qualifies to me as grunge, no doubt about it. I don't think grunge automatically has to be those low tones, those open, open uh E chords and things like that that are very yeah, like very somber uh chords and things like that. I this song's got a little bit of an upbeat, and one of my songs that is absolutely grunge, no doubt about it later in the episode, is gonna have a little bit of an update. Uh, even though they wrote it and said we want it to be a more upbeat song. So I think this qualifies 100%. And this is one of those records that trans we talk about this all the time. How many bands, especially in the early 90s, came out with a record that took them from stardom to absolute galaxy level type stardom, bro?

SPEAKER_01 22:48

I think Siamese Dream did that for this band. No doubt.

SPEAKER_00 22:51

Yeah. Um nobody was really paying attention to them. I mean, they were a big band, everybody knew who they were, but they didn't know them like this.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

One of the funny things that, sorry, let me pause that maybe. One of the funny things uh about that particular song is that Billy Corgan was irritated with the indie scene gatekeeping that we talked about earlier. He hated the fact that all these grunge bands, for lack of a better word, you know, insisted that you be this anti-corporate, anti-studio, anti-commercially successful, anti-MTV, and he kind of flew in the face of all of that and said, you know what, we're gonna do the most produced record possible with with Butch Vig and make it uh off the charts amazing. And the job well done. For me, uh, it's a great opening track to a great album. Uh I think it still qualifies as grunge. It made my perfect album side. What makes yours?

SPEAKER_00 23:44

What makes mine for album opener? For album opener. It's gonna be this song called. I can't wait. I need to make sure we got mine. Before you hit play.

SPEAKER_01 24:01

Do we have any over under? Right now we know it's not gonna go six for six because we did not crossover on this one, I'm guessing. Uh what it would be will we have any crossover? I think we'll have crossover of bands. And maybe a song, but maybe not in the same category.

SPEAKER_00 24:16

Um 100% crossover on bands. Three bands will cross over. Okay, is that what we're gonna go with bands? Three bands.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

I think three bands.

SPEAKER_00 24:25

Yeah. Um I'll say higher than that. You'd be wrong. It's three.

unknown 24:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

Alright, what do you got? That was a fun exercise for me. My album opener from Seattle.

SPEAKER_04 24:40

We've kind of gemo from Lemon.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

I went collaboration on this Stone Cold to kick off my perfect album side. Album opener Say Hello Hello to Heaven. Say hello to Heaven. Temple of the Dog is the group. The album is Temple of the Dog. This is 1992 Stone Cold. Opening track for the debut and only album by Temple of the Dog. Hitting that 1990. I think you said 90 to 94.

SPEAKER_03 25:37

Yeah, I think.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

I mean, I think a lot of our music is gonna fall in that category. I'm gonna be interested to see if we get out of that window. Uh, hey, a grunge super group. That's exactly what it is, but it's not the first time we've welcomed Temple of the Dog to the perfect album side. Released as the second single from the record, reached as high as number five on the mainstream rock charts. I'll tell you one thing I noticed about putting this together, Stone Cold, we always love to lean into the hot 100. Yeah. I don't a lot of my music, wildly popular, not necessarily major chart hits.

SPEAKER_01 26:13

Yeah, it's very strange because when you think back to that time frame, 1991 to 1994, you know, looking back, although it's been 35 years, god, that's that's a long time. I know. But I still remember these songs as the most important songs on the radio. These most important things on TV. When you were flipping through somebody's Case Logic CD collection, you saw this album, you saw, you know, Siamese Dream, you saw several of the other albums, you know, they were all everybody had these records. Everybody. But you're right, as far as the charts are concerned, none of them are number one hits. Not a single grunge song ever hit number one, I'm guessing. Charts be damned. Charts be damned. Which is probably the way they wanted it.

SPEAKER_00 26:52

Yeah, that's very grunge to think that way, too. I love it. Um to the lead singer Andrew Wood of Mother Lovebone. Uh, I would say a pioneer of the grunge movement. This is one of those bands that was sitting in the uh watching all these videos on MTV of the hair bands, wondering, we don't look like that. Uh so tribute to Andrew Wood.

SPEAKER_01 27:15

Andrew Wood looked like that.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

Andrew Wood looked like that, but some of the other guys.

SPEAKER_01 27:20

He could have played bass for poison, you know. No problem.

SPEAKER_00 27:24

So nobody would have been the wiser.

SPEAKER_01 27:26

Yeah. His friends, you know, Stone and Jeff Ament, and then the new guy, Eddie Vetter, that replaced him a little different.

SPEAKER_00 27:34

Right there. This song is really good, and it makes me absolutely love Chris Cornell's voice even more. You just heard how he carried that note. Uh, and you may not get some of that stuff in Soundgarden as much as you do in this song. Carnell, uh Carnell. Cornell. Chris Carnell. Chris Carnell. Yeah, lesser known. He wrote this song while he was in Europe touring, and he had no way to cope with the loss of his good friend Andrew Wood. And uh he approached Jeff Ament and Stone Gossard, former members of Mother Love Bone, about recording it. So Jeff and Stone had been in the studio working on a demo for what would become Pearl Jam, no big deal, and they laid this down. And I think a lot of people, Stone Cold, I know you would, because I know you well enough. I think a lot of people would have loved to have seen more music from Temple of the Dog. But this was a really big one. Hunger Strike also getting a lot of praise. This uh Hunger Strike was the lead single. I already mentioned that this was the number two. Uh, but this song just has a tribute vibe to it almost. Say hello to heaven. Temple of the Dog, formed in 1990 with Jeff Amit, Stone Gossert, Matt Cameron, Mike McCready. Eddie Vedder was even part of this. Basically Pearl Jam plus Cornell.

SPEAKER_01 28:58

That's, I mean, that's this was the pinnacle. This record was the pinnacle of grunge. Like, I I remember that that Hunger Strike video and just, you know, being blown away about Eddie Vedder, Chris Cornell singing together. Uh, this really was, in my mind, this album, kind of the top of the mountain for grunge. It just didn't get a whole lot better than this.

SPEAKER_00 29:20

Um, a hundred percent. Great song. Two massive, massive grunge bands coming together to put good music together. That's uh buddy, that's really hard to believe.

SPEAKER_01 29:32

Yeah, you think about it in in the the the ten years leading up to this, uh, you know, 1982 to 1992. Give me give me an example of of two bands coming together and and recording uh a song like that. Uh I can't think of one. Can you?

SPEAKER_04 29:47

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 29:48

I mean, we we've talked a lot about Michael Jackson and Paul McCartney coming together uh, you know, in the early 80s, but um I I can't think of two groups that were as big as they were at the time coming together and putting out a song or an album.

SPEAKER_00 30:00

I mean, I'll tell you the only thing that I can think of that was as similar as this is uh Velvet Revolver.

SPEAKER_01 30:08

Yeah, yeah, that's that's a a really good example and a great band. Uh say hello to heaven uh off Temple the Dog is a phenomenal choice for album opener. Um at the end of the episode, we will debate whether or not uh, you know, Smashing Pumpkins versus Temple the Dog. We'll get to the bottom of that a little later, but uh I I commend you on your choice.

SPEAKER_00 30:30

Oh, thank you. Uh I feel so validated right now.

The Most Iconic Grunge Video

SPEAKER_01 30:35

Well, that's uh you can just hang them up and go home. Um hang on two seconds. And this and do this. Uh the next topic was give us the most iconic video of the grunge era. Uh for me, this one wasn't even uh close. There was no other song close to this one in my mind. Let's see if you like it. Jeremy by Pearl Jam. Speaking of Jeff Eamon and Pearl Jam, uh I mean there wasn't a snowball's chance in hell of doing a perfect album side of Grunge without having uh Pearl Jam be on the perfect album side. So Jeremy, uh I mean, in my mind, one of the my most iconic videos, I was gonna say of the 90s, but probably of all time. Uh the song Jeremy off the album 10, track 11 on that album, released August 17th, 1992, which was almost a year to the date later than the album was released. So they had released um the album, they released Alive, they released Evenflow, I think they did uh like Once or Porch or something like that. And this one was like one of the last singles from the album and one of the last videos um that they made for a long time. Uh writers Jeff Aiment uh for the music, uh Eddie Better on lyrics. Uh this one hit number five on the Billboard album Rock Tracks, number five on Billboard Modern Rock Tracks, and number 15 in the UK. Never mind all that. Uh it won four MTV Video Music Awards in 1993, including Video of the Year. In my mind, it is by far the biggest grunge video of them all, and it's a haunting video that still upsets me to this day when I see it. And I I remember being ex- you know, the first time seeing that video, and it and it's simply Eddie Vedder sitting on a stool, you know, being Eddie Vedder and singing this uh as loud as he can. But the the look on his face was so overwhelming. That combined with the the images uh of the story of what this song was all about, the real life death of uh Jeremy Wade Dell in Texas, uh, along with Eddie Vedder's memory of some troubled classmates. Uh, all of that imagery coming uh into the video, along with Eddie Vetter's presence and his face, it was unlike anything I'd ever seen before. Uh it's still one of my favorite videos ever. It was absolutely gonna make my perfect album side for videos. Uh, what say you, young men?

SPEAKER_00 33:28

It absolutely made my perfect album side. I mean, when this topic was brought up and we went through the categories, this was it. It was a no-brainer. All I had to choose was five because I this was guaranteed at the beginning.

SPEAKER_01 33:40

Let me just go ahead and interrupt you. It's on mine, it's on yours, hence it's on the perfect album side for most iconic video of the grunge era. Continue.

SPEAKER_00 33:49

Stove cold. This video was everywhere. I think, you know, MTV when this song came out, what did we say, uh '92? Yeah. MTV was around 11 years old-ish when this came out. Okay. Uh, I don't think MTV's popularity hit until what you were just talking about, that 88, 89 era of music. I mean, they they were popular, but I really think MTV's popularity, the uh top 25 countdown, everybody watched that because they knew their favorite videos were gonna be on there. But when this video hit, this was on every five minutes. I mean, unbelievably popular. Uh, it's definitely online. Uh, something I didn't know, and I know we've covered Jeremy before, uh, I didn't know this. That the actor who played uh the young man, the real-life Jeremy Wade D. Yeah, uh, the actor's name is Trevor Wilson, and he passed away in 2016. He drowned uh in Puerto Rico, and I didn't know that until I started looking into this song for this very episode. Um, so tragic, but uh this video defined the 90s, this song defined the grudge era. To me, this is grunge, this is it, right here. Everything about it the story, the emotions, the band, the band, it's it's grudge.

SPEAKER_01 35:16

This is grudge. This is um Jeremy may be one of the rare songs where there are millions of people that remember the video more vividly than they do the bass line or the vocals or the guitar. They remember the video more often than the music. And I think we talked about this particular song in episode four of the perfect album inside podcast, songs better known by their videos. And this is i I don't know if this one made the perfect album inside or got an honorable mention, but uh you you can't hear this song without thinking of those the the flashing red sequences and and Jeremy at the front of that class and Eddie Vetter's face shaking. It's just uh well, it made mine, it made yours, it made thee. It is clearly the most iconic of all of the grunge videos. I can't help but notice as I'm talking about the important aspects of Pearl Jam and Grunge in this video that you're just off waving and having conversations with other people in the room.

SPEAKER_00 36:12

No, no, I'm sorry. My my son is leaving for the weekend and he came down to say uh I'm his hero in life, and he would never be where he is without me. Uh he said none of those things. He just said bye. I know that. I know that.

SPEAKER_01 36:26

And I I I know your son. We all know that window.

SPEAKER_00 36:29

We we're we would never fall for that window. That's just cruel. But he was saying goodbye and I was acknowledging. Beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 36:35

Uh yeah, Pearl Jam. Jeremy.

SPEAKER_00 36:37

I'm nothing if not a if I'm nothing if not a responsible dad. Stone Cold.

Grunge Songs Made By Movies

SPEAKER_01 36:41

Wow. Um your daughter is currently gallivanting through Europe on her own. Is that accurate? Uh-huh. Okay. You were saying something about Father of the Year. I just I want to make sure I heard you correctly. Okay. Uh the next category is uh That stings. That one really stings. Right here. Most iconic uh grunge song from a movie soundtrack. I think you have the con at this point since we both had that one. I'm gonna I'm gonna let you uh go first here.

SPEAKER_00 37:14

After the uh bloody nose that you just gave me about letting my daughter cavalier through Western Europe during the wartime. During the wartime, that makes me feel even better. I don't know. This is Wood with the question mark, Stone Cold. How many songs can you think of that are that have punctuation included? This is Wood question mark uh by Allison Chains. It's off of the singles original motion picture soundtrack. That's 1992 Stone Cold. The song did okay on the charts. This is one of those examples, didn't chart anything outrageous, but it was the movie, it was the soundtrack, and it was Allison Chains' role in the movie, right? They had that cameo that propelled this to be a big not underground hit, but it wasn't as famous as it perhaps could have been, but it got a big boost from the mountain from the uh from the movie from the motion picture soundtrack. Here we go, Stone Cold, for the second time today. For the second time on today's PAS, a song written as a tribute to Andrew Wood. Believe it or not, I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_01 39:48

The song Wood by Allison Chains is a tribute to him?

SPEAKER_00 39:52

To to Andrew Wood.

SPEAKER_01 39:55

I did not know that.

SPEAKER_00 39:56

I didn't either.

SPEAKER_01 39:58

I had to read it twice now that the link's not now that you know that and you've gone back to listen to it and heard the lyrics, do you hear that? Do you understand? Like, are the lyrics about that?

SPEAKER_00 40:08

Um, kinda. I mean, I think so. I'd have to probably study that a little bit more. Um, but they were very close. Again, another Allison Chains, another Seattle band. Yeah. But I'm not sure we've ever had two different songs written in tribute to the same guy on the same episode of The Pod.

SPEAKER_01 40:28

That is. This is a uh a notable moment on the podcast, and i my guess is it'll be the last time that ever happens.

SPEAKER_00 40:35

Uh, probably. I had no intention of that being the case, but um singles, of course, was the driving force uh behind this song's popularity. The soundtrack's amazing. I'm gonna talk about that in just a minute. Uh, but this song was also released as part of Netflix's show The Punisher and part of Allison Chain's Unplugged, which was massive. Great. Um, the unplugged version of Wood was named the 88th best hard rock song of all time.

SPEAKER_02 41:06

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 41:07

Uh that's a VH1. By VH1.

SPEAKER_02 41:13

I wanted you to get Housekeeping magazine said this was a classic uh rock table.

SPEAKER_00 41:18

By Juggs and Ammo. Yeah, I love subscription. Video was released in '92, directed by Cameron Crow. I didn't know that either. Cameron Crowe. But Singles, the movie, that's why we're here. Also directed by Cameron Crowe, right? Also, no surprise.

SPEAKER_01 41:33

I mean, Singles is the is the quintessential uh grunge movie. I mean, hell, half the artists we're talking about have a cameo in this movie. Uh it's a it's it's a good movie. Um, but it it it came out at the height of of grunge, uh, featured a lot of the artists, and had a great soundtrack. Uh once again, I find myself saying I I commend you uh on your choice. Really? Yeah. I mean you sound surprised. No, I'm not surprised. I'm surprised at my own stupidity. That's all.

SPEAKER_00 42:05

We've talked about Jeremy. Pearl Jam, Hermita.

SPEAKER_01 42:10

Oh, yes, that Jeremy, not Jeremy, Hermita, great later.

SPEAKER_00 42:14

Uh we've talked about saying hello to heaven with Jeff Eamon. Yeah. Uh this is this movie's got a lot of superstars in it, Bridge of Honda, Campbell Scott, who I love. He's one of my favorites. Matt Dillon, Ben Stiller, Bill Pullman, Matt Dylan's wardrobe in this movie. He's the main character. His wardrobe in this movie all came from Jeff Eamon's closet.

SPEAKER_02 42:36

That's outstanding.

SPEAKER_00 42:37

There's no wardrobe in the trailer. This just came from Jeff Eamon's closet. No joke.

SPEAKER_01 42:44

Is it is that the movie where the guy's talking about his band and says we are famous in Denmark and many parts of the Netherlands? Yes. I think it's from the singles, yeah. Classic line. We are famous in Denmark and many parts of the Netherlands.

SPEAKER_00 43:02

Uh let's let's hit some other I'm gonna turn this back over to you real quick. Other songs on the single soundtrack. Right? And this is Forrest Gumpish. I mean, Forrest Gump was a great movie, it was creative, but it also had a major soundtrack, which was a big deal. Um Dyslexic Heart by Paul Westerberg, which I love. Uh Leds Up on the Battle of Evermore. I don't need a comment. State in Love and Triass by Pearl Jam, Overblown by Mud Honey, nearly lost you screaming trees. That's a really good and that's just the ones I mentioned. Yeah. This is an incredible soundtrack, but this movie was instrumental in putting, I think, the oldest statement of the day, putting grunge on the map. Would Alison James PSON I would agree with you.

SPEAKER_01 43:47

Here is the next song on my perfect album side Grunge Tune from a movie. The song Outshined by the band Soundgarden. I mean, there there was just zero chance of us getting through this podcast without talking about Pearl Jam, without talking about uh the movie that you just talked about. Uh both. Soundgarden, Alice and Chains. I mean, these bands have to be talked about. Uh the movie itself, True Romance, which came out in 1993. Uh, there's a great scene in the movie where they they the mob comes to talk to Brad Pitt, and Brad Pitt's getting super high on a bung. Uh, he's hitting the bung really hard. He can barely keep uh the conversation going, but this is the song that's playing in his apartment uh during that scene, and I had to get uh had to get Soundgarden onto my list. Outshined off of uh by Soundgarden off the album Bad Motorfinger or the uh True Romance uh soundtrack. Uh the single was released November of 1991. Uh the album released uh a month before that. Uh again, recorded um, excuse me, released in 1991, were recorded in March through April of 1991 in Hollywood. Uh chart performance billboard album rock, mainstream rock number 45, number 50 in the UK. Um just a huge band in the uh the grunge movement. They had to get some love from me, and when I once I saw that this song was on uh that particular uh movie Sound Dragon, I was like, well, I gotta include it. Uh tell me your thoughts on Soundgarden, Mr. Windham.

SPEAKER_00 45:45

I mean Yeah, yeah. So I mean this was this band was gonna be represented somehow, right? I t I went a little bit of the back door.

SPEAKER_01 45:55

Mm-mm. It's too easy. It's too easy. I'm gonna let it go. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 46:01

Uh and I went with collaboration versus straight up sound garden. But yeah, this they're gonna be on there. You can't get enough of Chris Cornell's voice. Um true true romance, I've seen it, but it's been a long time. I wouldn't have I wouldn't have been able to pull this without some help.

SPEAKER_01 46:18

Again, we were not building Give Us the Six Most Iconic Grunge Songs. If we were doing that, my perfect album side's a little bit different. Movie soundtrack. I figured, you know, one of us was gonna go with the single soundtrack, and I wanted to find a way to get Soundgarden in. You chose to put them on the album opener. I had already chosen them. So, you know, you know the job. It's hard to pull this off. We can't have any bands repeat. On our perfect album side, uh, it makes it hard to pull off. This uh song has what I consider to be one of the greatest lines in all of rock history. I'm looking California and feeling Minnesota. Everybody hears that line, and yeah, at first it's kind of funny, and then you start thinking about it, and everybody gets it. I can't count the number of times I felt that exact way. I love California, feeling Minnesota. Um so for that reason, it was absolutely gonna make uh make my perfect album side. I had to get that one in there. You know, if if Nirvana was kind of the raw nerve and Pearl Jam was the human drama aspect, Soundgarden is the heavy architecture of Grunge. Um, and this this may be the song that best captures uh grunge sounding dangerous, but without losing vocal hooks. You've got this incredible vocalist, a dangerous sound coming together. Many people would argue that Rusty Cage or Black Hole Sun or Spoon Man are better. Uh for me, Outshine is is top of the heap as far as Soundgarden is concerned. What do you what do you think about this one?

SPEAKER_00 47:58

Well, I I love it. I I don't know if I can uh I don't know if I can say it's at the top of my Soundgarden list, the song. And that's not saying anything other than I need to get the full catalog. Sounds like you hate me. That's what it sounds like. But listen to this right here. It's so it's so stable. You said it just now. This song has got such a good foundation, right? Well right, it's so heavy. That's we said this about Jeremy, right? Jeremy is grunge, everything about that song is grunge, everything about this song is grunge, it's a lot of open E. It's very deep, it's so heavy. It's got some bottom. I know you love that. Yeah, yeah. This this song has got such a firm footing. That's what I love about it the most.

SPEAKER_01 48:47

I'll tell you one of the things that I like about it. Uh the riff. And and you pointed this out. One of the things that gets lost in both grunge and the punk scene from 10 years before, or 12 years before the grunge came out, was you know, it gets a it has a reputation of being sloppy, garage band, aggressive in your face. Let's not discount the musicianship. These guys are incredible musicians. And I think Soundgarden is maybe the best example of that as far as musicians and vocalists are concerned. I don't know if there is a better grunge band.

SPEAKER_00 49:23

Um I don't think Cornell gives enough credit.

SPEAKER_01 49:26

He's phenomenal. For vocalists, he's phenomenal. And then, you know, like the guitar itself, you can absolutely hear uh Black Sabbath in there. You know, you can hear Judas Priest in there. You know, they've got uh obviously their Seattle influences and whatnot, but some of this stuff is is still uh founded in classic rock, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_00 49:51

Yeah. This is gonna sound really like Captain Obvious, but I'm gonna say it anyway. I like bands who have just phenomenal musicians. I know, I know, but if you think about it, I mean there are certain bands out there, and I'm gonna say it by name that you that you don't sit around saying, you know, who was really good. I mean, the romantics were just phenomenal musicians.

SPEAKER_01 50:13

They were, they were really good.

SPEAKER_00 50:15

I mean, they're great, but I think to me, I think about the fish, I think about Soundgarden, I think about uh all these different groups that are just having phenomenal musicianship and I do think Soundgarden is one of them, and I don't think because they're grunge and they're supposed to be a little more raw and maybe a little dirty and right unclean, I don't think people consider Chris Cornell to be such an amazing vocalist. But if you listen to this song, if you listen to Temple of the Dog, uh what we just say hello to heaven, he's unbelievable. And if I had to make a grunge all-star band, he'd be my vocalist.

Female Voices And The Grunge Blast Radius

SPEAKER_01 50:54

Wow, wow. I mean, he's got a very distinct voice, uh, incredibly talented. The whole band is good. Um that one made my perfect album side. Uh as far as the movies are concerned, Alice and Chains with Wood made yours. We'll debate that at the end. Uh the next category on the perfect album side is the most iconic grunge song sung by a female. Uh I think you have the con. I think.

SPEAKER_00 51:18

Oh, dude. Do I have the con? Don't worry about taking it. Go for it. Uh this was the most intriguing category of them all. I can't wait to hear why. Oh, don't worry, I'm gonna tell you. Here we go. Stone Cold, I give you the Breeders. The Breeders. This is Cannonball. Uh, video, yes, radio everywhere. This song, this song was a big, big alt radio hit. Uh, Cannonball by the Breeders. It's off of the Last Splash, 1993 Stone Cold. And this category really, really intrigued me. And I had to go through a couple of iterations before I landed on the Breeders, Chem Deal and company. But I'm very interested to hear what else we all considered for this category. Uh, I don't want to say my backup yet. But I changed this, had it had a great one until this morning. But we've talked about this on the very on this very podcast symbol.

SPEAKER_01 52:40

Are you implying that are you implying that this one is not great? You said I had a great one until this morning. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 52:46

One that I felt was great, but then I did some research and yeah, yeah, yeah. This one's just as great. Sorry, go ahead. But there there was this, I mentioned this early in the pod. The grunge movement was mimicked by a parallel movement of early 90s grunge-ish bands that had a female lead singer.

unknown 53:07

Right?

SPEAKER_00 53:07

Sundays, cranberries. Yeah, L7.

SPEAKER_01 53:11

Did Lilith Fair come out of this time frame?

SPEAKER_00 53:14

Everything. Yes. That's a great call right there.

SPEAKER_01 53:17

Yeah, I don't really think of Lilith Fair as a grunge movement. It was more this female uh power movement. But I mean, a lot of it's grunge.

SPEAKER_00 53:26

Well, but I mean cranberries, I think you could listen to Linger or Zombie. How about Zombie? And almost consider that to be grunge-ish.

SPEAKER_01 53:35

Yeah, I mean it it's it's hard to define uh, you know, when where grunge starts and where it ends. But you know, like I said in the beginning of the show, the the blast radius of grunge was huge. Of grunge was huge. Um so whether or not you were wearing flatel, uh flannel and you were from Seattle is irrelevant. A bomb was dropped on the music scene and the shrapnel went everywhere.

SPEAKER_00 53:58

It's just crazy how much influence the grunge movement had. Um the Breeders, real quick, I'll run through this. Kim and Kelly Deal, two sisters. Kim Deal, of course, from the Pixies, she was the original bassist and co-vocalist there, uh, pioneer of the all-rock movement back in the 80s. Kelly came in to the Breeders. Um, now we just mentioned this group just a minute ago, uh, but one of the founding members of the Breeders Stone Cold was a uh young lady by the name of Tanya Donnelly, who played guitar for the Breeders very, very early on. She then left, opening the door for Kelly Deal to join. Tanya Donnelly went off and started Belly, uh, which is a great early 90s Feed the Tree. Feed the tree. There you go. So Kelly came in uh to be the third guitarist. Then once Tanya left, Kelly became the the only lead guitarist, even though she'd never played guitar before. First record was called Pod, had to mention that. Released in 1990, didn't do anything great, and the band was kind of floundering Stone Cold until a guitarist, a lead singer, by the name of Kurt Cobain, said publicly that Pod was one of his favorite albums, and that changed everything. That is fantastic. The Breeders got back in the studio, put together Last Splash, it was their biggest selling record. Cannonball, of course, was their biggest hit. Everybody knows that intro. If you were listening to a radio or watching MTV uh in the early 90s, you knew that bass intro, certified platinum, 33, uh 33 on the uh 200. And then uh the video, which, you know, like I said, it was on MTV. It didn't get a lot a lot of the uh publicity of the grunge movement that Pearl Jam and Nirvana and some of the other groups did. What year video for the 93? 93, okay. Uh the video was directed by Mike Jones, who had a video music award fame and Beastie Boy fame with sabotage. Um that would have been interesting. Uh to think about Sabotage by the Beastie Boys as a video in the grunge movement. I know not grunge, but interesting. Uh Breeders are a lot of things. Grunge, I'll rock, any rock. Uh I don't know exactly I said this earlier, I don't know exactly where the delineation is. But uh there's a great song on this record. It's called Saints. It's my favorite breeder song, it has been for a while, it's awesome. Um the album got a lot of positive press. It was considered one of the best grunge records of the early 1990s by Rolling Stone, by Spin. A lot of those publications came out and said this was a great record. But making a lot of best of lists. I don't know what VH1 said, Stone Cold. I know what you're thinking.

SPEAKER_01 56:50

I thought it was funny that you you talked about SoundGuard and how how much you enjoyed the musicianship of SoundGuard and how important it was to you that a band had great musicians, and then followed it up with the breeders where you said, This girl had never played guitar before.

SPEAKER_02 57:05

She's on lead guitar, she'd never even seen one before.

SPEAKER_00 57:08

I didn't say this would be one of my favorite groups because they're all phenomenal musicians. They just put good music together.

SPEAKER_02 57:14

They just they they threw four girls into a room with four instruments, and this is what came out.

SPEAKER_01 57:19

No, I'm kidding. Uh look, I that's it's a great song, and and it was uh hugely popular at that time. And yeah, I you know, I think uh like a couple of these others, you know, is a grunge? I don't know. Is it uh of that time frame? Absolutely. Uh and a huge hit. But I mean, you know, coming from members of the Pixies, I I think they they they've got their street cred already.

SPEAKER_00 57:41

Street cred already. I'm interested in yours because I'm gonna assume this is not on your perfect album side.

SPEAKER_01 57:46

It is not on my perfect album side.

SPEAKER_00 57:48

Gosh, I'm wondering if you chose the one I discarded. I'm really wondering that.

SPEAKER_01 57:52

I didn't because I I bet I know what you were thinking, and it's not this one. Released June of nineteen ninety, uh, September of nineteen ninety in Europe, uh, off the album Goo, track three on that one, uh, recorded at Sorcerer Sound and Green Street Recording in New York City. Uh writers Kim Gordon, Thurston Moore, Lee Ronaldo, and Steve Shelley, number seven on the Billboard Modern Rock Chart, and in the UK and Ireland. Uh, Chuck D contributes to this song with some spoken word vocals on this one. This song is all about um Kim Gordon got to interview LL Cool J for Spin Magazine, and the interview did not really go uh to plan, it was extremely awkward. She writes this song basically all about the interview she had with LL Cool J, hence the name Cool. Uh Sonic Youth, they are not from Seattle, and they're pre-1991, but they were part of the inspiration to Nirvana, part of the inspiration to Alice and Chains, part of the reaction to the whole uh sub-pop movement. They were signed on the same record label. This band supported those bands on tour, and vice versa, in the early, you know, 1990-91 time frame. I absolutely consider them to be part of the grunge movement, even though they weren't Seattle. They were more East Coast based, and I think you can see that coming through here with Chuck D and singing about LL Cool J. Different time, uh, different uh geographic area of the country, but still very much in the same vein. Very much uh a grunge. I just want you to know an inspirational band to the grunge movement in my mind. What do you say about it?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:17

I love this song. And I, you know, I haven't been super big on Sonic Youth, um, but they are awesome. What was the name? You said Lil' Fair. What was the other uh there's a great documentary about this this uh music festival? What was it? One of the pioneers of uh uh Harry Farrell of Days of Fiction started it. Hold on, hold on. Uh Lollapalooza. Yes, uh Sonic Youth was big into Lollapalooza, and I love this song. I would love to know what came out of this band. You know, did they branch off? Did they hit other places? And we just talked about Kim Beal coming out of the Pixies, yeah. But the Pixies and Sonic Youth kind of on the same level of of popularity or fame. I wonder what happened to Sonic Youth, but this is an amazing song. Full grunge. I don't know what you're gonna call the breeders indie rock, all rock, lamb rock, grunge, but this is full grunge right here. It's a great call.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:17

I think so. Just the fact that they were on subpop records and toured with Nirvana, toured with with uh a couple of these other bands, uh, they were very much in the scene just on the other side of the of the country. Um, you know, Kim Gordon gives a different attitude than the tortured male confessional that we get from all of these other uh grunge things. So it's it's a different mentality, uh different personality, but still all part of the same genre. And you know, as far as uh a grunge song sung by a female made my perfect album side, I'll just put it that way.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:57

Yeah, I think this is incredible. Um credible, the man says. That's how I don't know if I I I mean I probably should go ahead and concede that when we get into the laboratory at the end of the episode, I can probably go ahead and concede to go to this. It didn't even cross my mind.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:13

Well, I I have a feeling what crossed both of our minds was hole with Courtney Love.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:20

My first one, and I took it off this morning.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:22

Same thing. I had celebrity skin. I I had um Violet by Hole on my perfect album side, and maybe we should have in all honesty, I just it's not my favorite. You know, I was never a Courtney Love fan, I'm never a fan of Hole, and it wasn't gonna make my perfect album side, but I felt okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:37

I felt okay taking it off my perfect album side, but it wasn't until you said what you said earlier. Just because they're from Seattle, does that make them grunge? And talking about coming out of the grunge movement. I mean, is there any band that is I mean, I'm sorry, but Courtney Love is famous because of who she was married to. Yeah, I think so. And I hate to say that, that's not putting her down. I I actually think Celebrity Skin is awesome. That first verse one minute into the song is incredible. But I thought about it and I said, Why? Just because she's married to Kurt Cobain, her music has to be grunge?

Wild Cards And Grunge Origins

SPEAKER_01 1:03:16

No. Didn't make my perfect album side, didn't make your perfect album side, hence hold will not be on the perfect album side. Uh for the next one.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:25

We've never done it that way before.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:27

Uh wild card, we could take any song that we wanted from the uh grunge era. Uh I kind of went with one that I thought inspired a bunch of the others, and maybe just came out a little bit before the others, but uh a huge inspiration to many, many a band. Here it is. Uh, the song Touch Me, I'm sick by Mud Honey. Released August 1st, 1988. So we're talking two or three years before the grunge movement really takes off. But Mud Honey is an absolute influencer to every band that we have talked about. Uh, the original subpop artist is Mud Honey. They released the original EP on Sub Pop Records that probably was the birth of the grunge movement. Uh, every band that we've talked about today owes something to Mud Honey. Uh, and fun fact about this particular song: you know I played the drums, you know I played in all these rock bands. The very first song I ever played on stage in front of other humans was Touch Me I'm Sick by Mud Honey. So it has a special place in my heart, and the fact that it's really probably the birth of the grunge movement just a couple of years earlier. Uh, they all learned a thing or two from Mud Honey.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:18

Uh, that is incredible. Um, and I love how we kind of teed this up a little bit with some of the other music we talked about, being a tribute to Andrew Wood. Uh, you know, I don't I just don't know. I know who Andrew Wood is, of course. I know Mud Honey, but I don't know the band super well. Uh uh, but I love where your head's at. I love where your heart's at. Like what a cool little tribute uh to Mud Honey and Andrew Wood by putting this in your wild card. Great selection.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:45

I I think that that Mud Honey and this song in particular, uh they kind of it screams grunge before the mall crowd got a hold of it. It's still angry and violent and outrageous. Before Butch Vig comes along and they start really producing these huge records. This one was uh this is the original. This is the original grunge in my mind.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:10

Yeah. I totally agree. This one to me sounds like a couple of bands that I didn't really uh I wasn't a huge fan of, but I knew their music. Operation Ivy and Descendants. I don't know if you if any of those bands are familiar, but they were underground, a little bit skater rock, and that Mud Honey does not sound skater rock, but it's got a little bit of that sound to it. Um I thought uh initially the Stooges. That's that when you first started playing this, I'm like, Iggy Pop? I mean, is that Grunge? It sounds like that's what that sound is to me.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:44

Yeah, well, I mean, you can tell that that Mud Honey and some of these really early grunge bands are heavily influenced by the punk scene, including Iggy Pop and and uh the Melvins and and Oh yes. Um, you know, if if someone asks what grunge sounded like but before it got, you know, on the cover of Time magazine, play this song for them. Uh Touch Me I'm Sick by Mud Honey. It's only two and a half minutes long, but in my mind, it it really altered the landscape of rock music uh in the late 80s and into the early 90s because of what happened afterwards. Yeah. Touch me I'm sick, makes my perfect album side is my wild card. What makes yours, good sir?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:52

Uh I wanted to put this band on here because I didn't know if they were gonna make it otherwise. Uh, and they should make it. This is plush another another grunge anthem to me. Stone Temple Pilots off core, their debut album, 1993. This is their second single from that record, Sex Type Thing. Sex Type Thing, yeah. Which I think is an awesome song. I think this is a great record. Sex Type Thing was the debut single. Uh, but if we did a PAS on Grunge Anthems, this would be on there. I think this would be an overlap song. No doubt about it. This this song to me defined grunge. It probably, I mean, nevermind's in there somewhere, but I would say this song was right up there, this this album, but this song for sure was right up there into opening my eyes to how good that grunge movement really was. That 90 to 93 run was an all-time era for great music. I think we're finding that out today, and it keeps going. In 1993, with STP's debut release Core, the album itself peaked at number three Stone Cold on the 200, and plush was released uh as the second single as I mentioned, but they didn't want to leave with it because they didn't want to show their hand. They didn't want this song to come out, they knew they had something with this song. The producers, the engineers, everybody was saying this was gonna be a massive hit, and it absolutely was, but they didn't want to leave with it because they didn't want everyone else to say, oh, okay, so that's the best you got. Uh so they intentionally released it second. Uh Epic Records said, We'd rather you go ahead and lead with it. They said no. Um, but I do think Sex Type Thing is a great song. If you know the song Cracker Man, also off this record, they sound very, very similar. Um and plush, of course, is a relationship song. It's written in a hot tub stone called I Do My Best Work. Working in the hot tub. Well, who does it? Who does it? Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:49

Uh matter of fact, on the next episode of the Perfect Downside Podcast, I think that we should uh broadcast from a hot tub.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:58

Let's look into the logistics. I'm all for it. I think we can make that work. But what I love about this song, it's ragtime. We've talked about this before. The whole verse rip. It's ragtime. Rick Fiotto, who you and I both love. Yeah. He does an awesome interview with bassist Robert DeLeo of Stone Temple Pilots. Alright. And DeLeo goes into how he came up with the plush rip. He wrote all the songs uh off this record, believe it or not, except for sex type thing and where the river goes, which is the album closer. But DeLeo gets in there and he says, it's ragtime. Yeah. And he plays it. And you've seen that video. I know I neither saw it on your own or I said it to you, but um, it's the exact same thing. So this is just simple ragtime. And I'm like, that's insane. You could take something so old, so classic, so traditional, and turn it into one of the biggest hits.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:54

Change the tuning, get into the you know, change the tuning a little bit, grab a distortion pedal, and get uh get a good vocalist, and you've got uh something else completely, but it's all totally tone down the tempo a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:04

Um song didn't get a whole lot of positive press when it came out. A lot of critics felt this was just an embarrassing version, quote, of Pearl Jam. But lots of MTV video play. It got best new artist in 1993, it's got an amazing unplugged version. Um, I think Stone Gold, if I look back through, I don't know about Cannonball, Wood was a had a big unplugged version, Jeremy was a big unplugged version.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:34

I would argue that the unplugged version of this song, like you said, you know, it didn't chart the highest, it was a slow build after it came out. But once people heard the unplugged version, which I believe it wasn't on an MTV unplugged episode, I believe it was him sitting down on like headbanger's ball or 120 minutes or one of those shows and just playing it acute. And that all of a sudden was on everybody's radar, and then the song, you know, the electric version got really popular again. Uh look, this is one of my favorite songs on the entire perfect album side we've talked about today. I love Stone Double Pilots. Uh they did not make my perfect album side, I just couldn't find a way to fit them in. But uh, I say this for the third or fourth time today. I commend you on your choice. Uh incredible band, incredible song collection. I'm glad you used your wild card spot uh to fill it up with STP. Nice job.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:23

Uh I think this band was awesome. They still are.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:26

Well, no, they're not anymore, but you know what?

The Nirvana Closer And A Genre Eulogy

SPEAKER_00 1:12:29

Yeah. Uh uh Yeah, that's it. All right. I got one more. But you're up.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:34

We got one more, and look, I'm gonna go ahead and address the elephant in the room. There's a band we haven't talked about on this episode, and I haven't talked about them, and I don't think you've talked about them, and we only got one uh spot left. It's not gonna surprise me at all if we have some crossover right here.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:54

Let me tell you this. It surprised me that this song was fitting to this category.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:59

Well, let's see if it's the same song for Solomon. Oh, sorry, sorry. Oh my gosh, sorry. Album closer. Uh, this is the one that made my perfect album side. Oh, jeez. All apologies by, I believe it's pronounced Nirvana. Uh Nirvana, December 6th, 1993, as a double A-side with the song Rape Me. It is the album closer from the album In Utero, which I believe is what their fourth album, third or fourth album. Um Nirvana, I mean, obviously, you know, probably the most uh recognizable grunge band of all of them, and if it wasn't for smells like Teen Spirit, none of this happens, probably. Um, you know, clearly Nirvana is is at the top of the hill when it comes to thinking back on grunge songs. I think all these bands that we've talked about, Pearl Jam, Alice in Chains, Temple of the Dog, uh Sonic Youth, The Breeders, all of this comes out of Nirvana. Um I wanted to get Nirvana onto my perfect album side. I was hoping, you know, to get a different song in in a different place, but when I saw this one, that was the album Closer for an Utero. Uh speaking of MTV Unplugged, huge success uh after the MTV Unplugged because they did such a great version of that. That was really the first time that we got to see um Dave Grohl sing was when he was doing uh the falsetto part on this song, which was really cool in the unplugged version. Uh look, it's a huge, huge uh MTV uh excuse me, a huge hit. Number one on the Billboard Modern Rock charts, number four on the Billboard mainstream charts, uh, number 32 in the UK. This is probably the highest charting song that we've talked about today. Uh it's probably my top two or three Nirvana songs of all time. Um it's beautiful, it's exhausting, it's awesome. What do you think?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:20

Uh I I think all those things. Um so on my perfect album side. I mean, had to be. I I you and I I didn't think it was okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:32

Alright.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:32

We you and I both scoured the ends of the earth to find a song that was gonna be worthy of album closer. That's what I was saying. Like, I can't believe this song was the the closer on an album. Like, I this would have been a almost a lead single. Not not the last song on the side too, but um, I love this song. A couple little nuggets that I came across with this song so called is yeah, double A side. Uh I'm not sure I'm gonna mention the name of what the B side was. It's a family show. Um, and if you know, you know. Hashtag if you know you know. But no video for this one. Here's what I found really interesting. What was the song that was the most influential for Cobain when he was writing All Apologies? I don't know. It was Dave Roll said, hey, it was on loot the entire time. Well, he was writing it. That song, Norwegian Wood by the Beatles. Oh my god. Okay, very I didn't know that. Uh I love the cello in this song. I think the cello is what gives it a little bit of a darker undertone. You know, just dragging that bow slowly across one of those lower strings, I think is really cool. Um, and it sets the tone. Scott Litt came in to do some touch-up work on this song. And Scott Litt, uh, as some of you may know, was responsible for producing Document, Out of Time, Monster, Automatic for the People, and New Adventures of Hi-Fi.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:58

These sound like REM albums.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:00

Those are REM albums. Uh Stone Cold, we'll see. You know, I love to do this part. Uh, nominated for multiple Grammys. Uh, two of them, didn't win either. Uh, 1995, it nominated for Best Rock Song. Would you like to tell me who won Best Rock Song in 1995? You may know.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:22

Give me the question again. Sorry. This did what? And what's the question? I can't hear you.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:29

You're like, oh crap. This did what? All right, tell me the story you got started.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:33

Start over.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:34

This song, All Apologies, nominated for two Grammys in 1995. Nominated. It didn't win either one. Number one, best rock song. It got nominated for best rock song, and it lost two. Any guesses?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:52

No, I don't have any guesses.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:54

It's hard. It's I wouldn't have guessed either, so let me say that. I wouldn't have gotten this right. Uh, I've got it right in front of me. Streets of Philadelphia by Bruce Springs. It also got nominated for Best Rock Performance by a Grouper Duo. And this song was massive. Uh probably the biggest hit this band's ever had, believe it or not, considering they were a huge 70s band. Uh crazy by Aerosmith.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:19

Well, if Touch Me I'm Sick is the filthy birth of Grunge. I think all apologies, you know, could could be the eulogy.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:30

Oh wow. So it's it doesn't just close an album, it may close the the uh I mean the genre a little bit in my mind.

Final Debates And The Perfect Six

SPEAKER_01 1:18:37

Uh, you know. We have come to the end of the nomination sessions of the grunge perfect album side. Let's get in the lab, as you like to say.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:50

I love getting in the lab. I'm re of course I'm ready.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:53

All right, a couple things. Uh there were two songs that were on my that was on mine, it was on yours, hence it's on the video for Jeremy makes the perfect album side. Um and then the last one, uh All Apologies by Nirvana also makes the perfect album side for album closer. As we look uh at the album opener, I had uh the smashing pumpkins. Um excuse me, you had no I didn't have smashing. Sorry, I had Cherub Rock by Smashing Pumpkins, and you had uh Soundgarden say hello to heaven as the opener. Um I would lay down my sword, absolutely. Soundgarden say hello to heaven. Uh I love I love your choice though.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:37

Please don't let it this podcast continue without me acknowledging that I loved your choice and it perfectly fit the topic. Put that to rest.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:46

Yeah, right, write these down as we go. Uh okay, so the video is Jeremy. As we move on to uh the movie category, the most iconic grunge song from a movie. Uh you said Alice and Chains with Wood. I said outshined by Sound Garden. The correct answer, I hate to concede twice in a row, but uh, you got me there. Alice and Chains Wood is absolutely it's just it's a better it's the greatest day of my life. This this one could somebody write this date down because it could be important. Normally uh I fight you to the death and and uh and win, but today I I feel like you came to play. Uh for the fourth category, we had uh song sung by a female, we had the breeders with cannonball, and then cool thing by Sonic Youth. What do you think?

SPEAKER_00 1:20:30

Oh, I already said I would concede, I can't go back. I love your choice. And and I again the breeders can fall into a number of categories. It could be indie, indie, it could be alt, it could be grunge. I don't think there's any debate whatsoever. Sonic Youth is firmly embedded, pioneers in that movement, no doubt.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:51

All right, Sonic Youth makes the perfect album side. Uh, for Wildcard, um, I had uh the the founding uh of um the grunge movement in my mind with Touch Me, I'm sick by Mud Honey. You had Plush with STP, which is probably my favorite song on the entire perfect album side process. Uh this is a tough one in my mind. I mean, yeah. Plush is a bigger plush is a much bigger song. It's the most iconic uh of of the two. Although I love mine, uh god darn it, I'm gonna lay down again. Uh to me, plush, I plush is the answer.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:30

As much as I'm a little more I'm a little less receptive to that concession than I was the first two. I think if you're a real grunge a holic. Yeah, I mean if you if you were people know Mud Honey and people say Mud Honey started this whole thing. Sonic Youth was there, but Mud Honey, and my gosh, we talked about two songs already on here that were tributes to the guy from Mud Honey by bigger bands, the globally renowned bands.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:57

Well I I think we've we've we've talked about Mud Honey quite a bit. We've paid homage to them, we've paid respect to them. You can't argue with plush by Stone Double Pilots, though. I mean, that's it's one of the biggest songs of the 90s, one of the greatest songs uh of the 90s by far. Uh I I think plush is the answer. And I I I don't care what you say, your song is better than mine. I don't say that very often. The perfect album side of Grunge looks something like this: Say Hello to Heaven by Temple of the Dog, Jeremy by Pearl Jam. Wood by Allison Chains, Cool Thing by Sonic Youth, Plush by STP, and I make no apologies. All apologies by Nirvana off the in utero album. This one was so much harder than I thought it was gonna be, man.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:54

It was, but I think it's almost our own tribute, right? Because there are so many good bands and really good songs. I'm surprised Nevermind didn't make it. I know, I know we framed up this episode, so it wasn't just the obvious six songs.

What’s Next And Where To Follow

SPEAKER_01 1:23:09

Look, that's been talked about to death. Everybody can talk about smells like Teen Spirit and and Alive by Pertle Jam and you know, all these songs, which are great. That's not what we were doing here today. We're building the perfect album side album closer, female, album opener, wildcard, video, soundtrack. Gotta have those things to be on the perfect album side. Uh, really good perfect album side. It was fun to talk about this music again and kind of relive that from so long ago. Uh what's next? What do we got next? Uh, if you haven't already, check out uh perfect album Sid on on Twitter or X or whatever you call it. Uh, we're working on a new website, uh, we're working on some new social media stuff. But uh yeah, check us out on Twitter. Uh thanks for listening. Windham, you got anything else for us today?

SPEAKER_00 1:23:53

Man, I'm looking forward to the next one. Uh, could be a single?

SPEAKER_01 1:23:57

Maybe. Maybe we'll be good. Maybe, maybe June, July.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:00

No, no, better not be. Better be April. No fool.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:03

We'll do one again soon. Uh to all the listeners, thank you guys for listening. Uh Wyndham, I'll talk to you soon. See you, man. Later, dude.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:12

Later, dude.