Burger King (UK)'s Chief Marketing Officer, Katie Evans, talks about her experience of driving customer-focused Performance Improvement.
Listen out for her take on putting the customer front and centre, working in partnership with the supply chain to achieve better results and engaging stakeholders in transformative change.
Learn how agile processes have enabled Katie to lead a team successfully and consistently without stifling creativity.
More from PMI:
Burger King (UK)'s Chief Marketing Officer, Katie Evans, talks about her experience of driving customer-focused Performance Improvement.
Listen out for her take on putting the customer front and centre, working in partnership with the supply chain to achieve better results and engaging stakeholders in transformative change.
Learn how agile processes have enabled Katie to lead a team successfully and consistently without stifling creativity.
More from PMI:
Hello, and welcome to PMI's Podcast Leading for Business Excellence. Our podcast brings inspiring stories from across the globe in a multitude of sectors from great leaders who share their experience and what Business Excellence means to them. I'm Rich Seddon, Managing Partner of PMI, the performance improvement Consulting and Training firm. In this episode, I'm delighted to be joined by Katie Evans, Chief Marketing Officer of Burger King, UK. Katie's career is one of customer obsession, from understanding who the customer is, what their needs are, how to engage new and existing customers, and most importantly, delivering experiences that keep them coming back. Today, we're going to talk about Katie's experience and insights of excellence from a marketeers perspective, and hear how she's driven performance improvement. Listen out for Katie's take on putting the customer front and center, working in partnership with the supply chain to achieve better results, engaging stakeholders in transformative change, and the importance of Agile processes in a fast paced environment. Oh, and there's even a whopper on the side of a bus too. Katie, thanks so much for joining us.
Katie Evans:Hi, Rich, good to be here. Thank you.
Rich Seddon:So to kick us off them. Could you take us through your career to date to give our listeners an idea of, of watching name and where you come from.
Katie Evans:I started back Oh, I don't remember what year. But I when I left Uni I started on the graduate program at dunnhumby a quite an exciting time for that business. It was still relatively small compared to what we see now. But it gave me such a solid grounding in customer insights and customer centric decision making. That it you know it I think for grad program, it was really good to kind of setting me up for the career I was to go on and have because that piece around data informing decisions is kind of run through everything I've done since then. And I had the opportunity to work on warburtons and I'm Weetabix and lots of smaller brands. And they're obviously quite big By comparison, but it was a really exciting time for the company. And obviously a really exciting time for, for Tesco, you know, being able to provide their suppliers and the brands that they were working with, with, you know, real customer data that allow them to, you know, improve their brand marketing their ranging their category management. And yeah, I really, really enjoyed my time there. But I guess the experience I had with those clients gave me a little insight into you know, how things worked within a brand team. And I was really keen to get involved myself and go client side. So from there, I moved to Heinz, in an assistant brand manager role, which was a brilliant opportunity to work for an iconic brand, very big organization, a very, very different to you know, what I have come from a dunnhumby. But you know, as a first brand role, it gave me, you know, some good experience in working on Creative campaigns and new product launches. I guess for me, a company of that size, there was a lot of process, a lot of hierarchy. And as I said quite different to the culture I had come from at dunnhumby. So I kind of decided it wasn't really where I wanted to stay. And an opportunity came up at Krispy Kreme UK, which I then pursued. And I took on the head of marketing role there, which was really, really exciting because it was quite a new brand in the UK still in its kind of early growth. Many stores but you know, lots of growth still to come. And, you know, it was all around how do you position a brand by Krispy Kreme with you know, it's its first ever store in the UK, opened in Harrods, but it was no stocking units across Tesco nationwide. So that was really interesting for me because it was a real kind of insight into, you know, their their multiple consumer groups for this brand and this product, and how do we just make sure that we can get it to people in the right way. It was also a very early insight into delivery, online delivery and we explored I think it was 2007 exploring online ordering and transporting doughnuts with a company I think they were called a courier and they're probably still going strong. But you know, very early stages of I guess trying to get product to consumers and you know before we had the likes of delivery and and UberEATS and and other other delivery companies in place. So that was that was good fun. I then joined gourmet burger kitchen, casual dining brand that was around from I think was 2001. But when I joined, it was just off the back of the recession introduced a loyalty program there, which was was quite exciting because it was one of the, one of the first, I guess, solid loyalty programs that we had seen, you know, really starting to take effect in that sector. So we, we massively reduced that discount dependence, which I think a lot of brands Pizza Express, or another example had gone through during the recession, and tried to get it back to a really good place, redesigning restaurants, and growing that brand across the UK, which was a really lovely journey to be part of. And from there, I then had a little bit of a gap, I did my own thing for a while and decided that I'm probably better off being part of a team than working for myself, which was still a good learning to, to come out with and explore. But I then joined Burger King, almost four years ago, which was quite different, even though it was still in the world of burgers, it was quite different for me to start to get involved in a fast food brand, very different to casual dining. But a really interesting time for Burger King, because we were essentially a new company, taking on a iconic brand with huge brand awareness. And taking it on a journey to make it relevant again, in the UK, and bring it back into growth. And that has been quite the journey and quite exciting the last few years, obviously, we've had the challenge of the last 18 months. But you know, it's it's been about repositioning it to speak to the right audience, in the right way playing to our strengths again, but also remaining agile. And I think, you know, the fact that we are a relatively young company, in terms of how long we have been working on on the Burger King brand has has really helped in that agility and that ability to kind of react to change, which was particularly helpful when when the pandemic hit in 2020. Okay, fantastic.
Rich Seddon:So there's a couple of things I'm hearing there, then. And the common theme seems to be in this check out if this is a fair reflection, it's one of building up and construction of both process and proposition for the customer. Is that a fair reflection of some of the commonalities between the between your role?
Katie Evans:Yeah, I guess, you know, two or three of those roles, probably to Gbk and Burger King have very much been around and to a certain extent brand turnarounds. So brands that have, you know, they have they have awareness, they're, they're, you know, they're in a good place. They're in a good position, but they have they've lost their way. And how can you reposition them, but also building the, as you say, the processes and structure that allow for growth? And that's growth in lots of areas, so rollout of new restaurants, but not just that, how do you, you know, adapt, and reposition the brand itself, what it stands for, making sure that you're, you're, you're speaking to the right audiences, and you were responding to their needs in the right way.
Rich Seddon:And he mentioned at the very outset, with you with your first role at a backup dunnhumby around data foundations. And one of the things that I'm really keen to understand is, is from a marketeers perspective, how do you understand performance, so you get a sense of what is and what isn't working? Because there must be tangible things and intangibles and lots of different measurement systems in order to know that
Katie Evans:yeah, I mean, there are, there's a plethora of, you know, ways of measuring or ways of looking at that data, but I guess it's, it's about not, you know, being overwhelmed by all of those data sources, but having a, you know, a solid set of measures that you have in place, and I guess that that goes right back to the start of what are the objectives, you know, if your objectives are clear, your ability to then measure performance? And, you know, it's, it's obvious really, you know, it's you need to understand what it is you're looking at and what you're trying to what change you're trying to instigate
Rich Seddon:think about how you understand success, then there must be micro levels and macro levels and different different different types of, of criteria to meet those objectives. But part of it, I guess, you mentioned it earlier on is around agility. You must have to turn things on and off pretty quickly. Tell me about that and how how that works within your team.
Katie Evans:I guess you know, promotions and, and discounts. We have our own app, which is which was introduced last year. That gives us very clear data but also a very clear way and method to to measure performance of discounts or promotions that we might be running, you know, we have over 500 restaurants. So we can immediately see if we, you know, turn on a new product, launch a new product, make a change to the menu, you know, make a change to an offer or something that we're running, we can very quickly understand the impact that's had on behavior, because we're looking at a sizable group of people, and we're looking at those transactions, you know, daily, hourly, you know, so we can get very clear insights on that kind of activity that we can kind of very quickly switch on and switch off. But there are other aspects to what we do that we also need to measure, a lot of, you know, the repositioning of a brand and bringing a brand, you know, back to consumer relevance, again, is very much about how it's perceived, you know, how it sits? from a customer perspective, you know, are we speaking to the right people are the messages we're putting out there getting through in the right way? And are we actually engaging those customers to come and see us to come and visit and to try Burger King again. And to do that, that takes a little bit longer, you know, some of it we track over time. So we will track customer attitude or disease over time, customer and brand perceptions over time. But then there are other occasions where you know, you will do something, and you need to be very consistent with that message for a very long period of time for to actually cut through. And that's why, you know, there will be things that we will measure in brand tracks every six months to really understand, okay, it takes time for those things to have an impact. And let's give it the time it needs before we, you know, change strategy again, because, you know, otherwise, you would just end up chopping and changing all the time. But there are many things that we can measure quite quickly. And I guess the benefit of things like social media allow you to, you know, you can run a campaign, and very quickly do some social listening to understand how has that been received? You know, what's the sentiment around it is a positive, neutral or negative? You know, there's a lot there's a lot of data sources, or there are a lot of data sources, and it's just about being being very clear on you know, what our objectives and what are the what are our plans for measurement from the start? And I think then, you know, the team are then aligned behind, you know, what does good look like? What will a good campaign or a good promotion looks like for us, and, and finding the right measures to track that?
Rich Seddon:Okay, so you mentioned earlier on around some of the early experience of online delivery with, with Krispy Kreme. So one of the things that strikes me is the period that, that you've been active during your career, the, the enormous transition that you've seen, in terms of the change of the role of social media, you just mentioned it there, that must have heightened the need for agility? And yes, it gives you a whole raft of additional insights, but it must be operationally a whole different dynamic, that this has evolved, and continues to evolve, I guess, day in day out from from running a busy marketing team and the way that you do
Katie Evans:absolutely, you know, it's, it's an always on channel, and, you know, it's an it's a two way channel. So, you know, we can, it gives us, you know, a great degree of agility in terms of putting a message out there to a customer audience, or to any audience and in a very timely way. So for us, the huge benefit in that is, you know, we can react to things out there that are in the kind of, in consumers minds, relevant things that they're talking about, and be part of that conversation in a way that is right for us as a brand. And so that's, you know, that's incredible. And you can have huge reach with with that message. And obviously, you can measure the sentiment and you can really become part of the conversation and the right conversations for you as a brand. I guess, with that there is also the, you know, the day to day piece for the customer feedback that comes through on a restaurant experience. And, therefore, it's pretty critical that we're, you know, that we're looking at that channel, in particular, if we're, if we're looking at social media, that we're looking at it, you know, in both, how do we, you know, maintain our presence on there in the right way and interact with our and engage with customers in the right way on, you know, it could be little things like, is that store going to be open at this time, too, and redirecting those questions, so that those customers get a response, managing complaints, but also being able to have, you know, quite fun conversations that will often turn into, you know, a bit of banter on social media, that that ends up, you know, driving, you know, more conversation and, you know, attention and, and engagement, which is fundamentally what we're trying to achieve. So, yes, it requires, we have an agency who look after our social media, they're like an extension of our team, very clear on, you know, our positioning and how we And how we speak to customers, you know, how transparent we are as a brand, you know, things we will talk about things we won't talk about, I think that's really important as well. But that team needs to be, you know, very clear on, on what's happening. And we need a two way communication internally with them. That allows us to, you know, be ready and be agile, should something go wrong in that channel, or if an opportunity presents itself and, you know, it's so that we can quickly make a decision to be involved or not.
Rich Seddon:Okay, so what I'm hearing there is that you've got, you've got a mixture of third parties, and you add your europace to your own internal team. And I'm guessing that the repeatable processes are pretty important in that environment to ensure that the responses are not just in the social media world, but the the way you respond to this ever changing environment, and particularly with the size of audience that you have repeatable processes must pay a large part in that mix.
Katie Evans:Yeah, I'd say there's a balance. And I'd say there's a balance between a level of process and flexibility. But I guess the flexibility it sounds like such a cliche to say, but the flexibility is there, because there is a framework in place. And therefore, you know, everybody has a clear set of objectives, we are very clear on, you know, our tone of voice, you know, the kinds of conversations we will take part in, you know, the things we want to say. And so therefore, I guess there is a framework around around that. But there is also I guess, a framework in terms of, you know, if our social media agency who we give, you know, a huge amount of autonomy to, if they feel that something comes up, that is an opportunity for us as a brand. So I'll give you an example. We had, I think it was one of the most liked branded tweets of all time, and came out of a very specific reaction to a comment that Kanye West had made. So our social media agency were were picked up on Kanye West saying my favorite brand is McDonald's. And they immediately said, we need to respond that involved a text to our brand and comms director. With this, what we're going to say, is that good, yes. And they responded to Kenya with explains a lot, and it just went wild. Now, it's one of those things, that was a three word tweet, it was quite a, you know, a quick reaction to something that was quite relevant for us, because it was Kenya was talking about McDonald's, and we can be part of that conversation. But it drove huge attention on the brand, it was featured in news articles in the US, you know, Burger King, UK just did this. And it was it was all about timing, it was all about the simplicity of the response. But that timing was only possible, because we have a very clear, you know, path of communication between us and our digital agency, we use things like What's up, you know, things don't have to take place in a formal briefing document. And I guess that level of informality, while it seems quite informal, and quite casual, it is quite reflective, there's an inherent process there. And, you know, people are clear on on, you know, who they need to speak to, to get things done. And also, as a team, we don't have a huge level of hierarchy, we're quite a lean team. And that means that, you know, we can respond quite quickly when things, you know, are brought to the table be that a great creative campaign idea, and a great PR idea that is so timely that it needs to happen, you know, within the next half an hour, it doesn't always work like that there are other campaigns that are much more, you know, planned in the long term, but we need to be able to work at both levels. And I guess that, you know, what you refer to as a repeatable process, it's probably inherent, it's much more overt on things like new product development. So with any new product development, you know, we will often have multiple products or product categories, and in development at any one time, and that requires, you know, a level of not just project management, but a level of process that allows for, you know, clear understanding of what's happening in the market. And, you know, speaking with the suppliers and getting, you know, getting the right products and the great ingredients that we need, testing that at a first level, developing further testing, again, you know, consumer testing, refining, and all of the pieces that go before a launch and, you know, that can be anything from a, you know, a six to nine month process. And, you know, some of our, in the early days, we didn't have the luxury of that time, we had to really condense you know, new product development because we have so many things that we wanted to launch and get out there to bring new news. But over time, I feel like we've really honed that, that process and we've really got our heads around how to how to improve it, but it's in a constant state of improvement, it's in a constant state of Okay, what can we learn from that last, that last run? Is there anything we would change, we try not to let process or I guess, hierarchy within the team stifle creative ideas, but try to have the processes and lines of communication quite clear. And then they become quite inherent in how we work. So while we might not always call it out as a process, it's it is there. And I think, you know, our learnings from the last kind of 18 months, you know, particularly in a crisis, the trust in that process, it means that we can get to solutions so much quicker. And obviously, having to do that remotely. You know, I I've been on Matt Lee for some of that. But in the first lockdown, I was very much part of, you know, us trying to navigate our way through the, you know, the early parts of the pandemic and what it meant for the business. And actually having, having those kind of lines of communication and process around those really, really helped us.
Rich Seddon:Okay, fantastic. Fantastic. So one of the things you've talked about throughout the podcast so far, is about working with third parties, agencies of different of different kinds. And I'm keen to hear about you, William, what's that experience? Like? I mean, I'm very, very conscious that it's the creative sector, stifling creativity, if it's described, it is the thing you don't want to do. So something you've obviously worked on some great projects, and just talk to me about some of those some of those standout experiences.
Katie Evans:I mean, yeah, we absolutely don't want to stifle creativity. But we, you know, for that creativity to exist, there needs to be a really good relationship between us and the agency, they need to feel very much like an extension of our team. Therefore, they need as much information and insight as we can give them. And I've always felt that with, you know, agency relationships, they're so important, particularly at a time of crisis, but just to Anyway, you know, we're on quite an interesting journey with Burger King in the UK. And, you know, we've done a lot in a very short space of time. So it was really critical that we had a set of agencies who really understood what we were trying to achieve, and that we constantly refresh and update them on any changes to that strategy or any changes to that plan. And with many of our agencies, we have not just a clear set of objectives that are tailored to their specific role within within the marketing agenda. They also get to see that overarching direction were taking. And I think that very much makes them part of the team. Okay, that's interest. I
Rich Seddon:mean, one of the one of the common themes, we see many cases is where supply chains and let's call your agencies part of a key part of your supply chain. They're not treated as part of the team and and goals and objectives and aspirations aren't shared. So what I think I've just heard you saying there is that sharing, and Ben and team working within your supply chain has been a key part of, of your performance excellence in the way you've driven improvement?
Katie Evans:Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I think it's part of our culture to bring, you know, to bring the agencies on board, but I guess it's also part of the experience we've had, you know, coming, you know, starting to work on a brand where, you know, back in the very early days, when we did social listening in 20, would have been back end of 2017, early 2018. And, you know, it was telling us that despite having over 500 restaurants, many customers out there, were saying just Burger King still exist in the UK. That's a bit of a shocker and a shock to the system when you're starting on a on a brand journey. Because you're thinking actually, we've we've a lot further to go than we than we initially thought. And so therefore, obviously working on that plan, alongside the right agencies was really important, and obviously getting their expertise, but I definitely think it's been critical in, you know, in the successful campaigns we've seen over the last few years, but also, you know, how we've remained agile how we've remained responsive to the customer and listening to the customer and engaging with them in the right way. Because there's a freedom in our agencies being able to come to us with ideas and creative ideas, we won't always say yes, but there is always an opportunity for them to come and present those thoughts. And we tend to have a number of ongoing reefs with our creative agencies, and this is something that happens globally. It's very much a Burger King thing at a global level. You know, we have very clear briefs for example, around you know, Whopper, it's our core product, it represents everything we stand for big taste flame grilling me to order your way, we always find creative ways to bring it front and center. But, you know, for an agency, that's you know, that's that's just a brief that's on the table all the time. So if, if they see an opportunity to bring that front and center in the right way, and, you know, come to us with that idea, and we'll explore it. And that's, you know, an example of what BBH, our creative agency did. When they texted me with an idea to put water on the side of a bus, in front of the Houses of Parliament in the week leading up to the election, you know, a whopper on the side of a bus must be an election, and it was, you know, it was tapping into something that was happening that week, we turned it around in a matter of days. But I guess it's that, that openness between agency and and us, and the ability to kind of move quickly. And, you know, it's engaging for them as well, but it really works for us.
Rich Seddon:That's fascinating. And I think, our audience listening to this that don't work in in a creative sector, we really intrigued by that analogy, because it's it's directly translating that that collaborative experience into results. That was a standout campaign for you, wasn't it?
Katie Evans:It was Yeah, it was I think we ended up in the FT with that, which wasn't, which was quite unexpected, but it clearly tickled. You know, the financial sector as much as you know, political news, and, you know, we weren't trying to be overtly political, as much as people may have tried to position us as, you know, being, you know, on one side or another, we absolutely were, and we just felt, you know, we had an opportunity to talk about Whopper in a fun way. And, and we did it. And, you know, I think it's, I yes, I think in the creative sector, it's important, I think it's really important in the creative work that we do. But you know, if I think back to those very early days, where he had dunnhumby, I remember going to an old agency meeting with warburtons, at the time, and they had lots of insight agencies, and all invited to the table to come and see a presentation of their plans, and their strategy for growth. And it was essentially a day of, you know, getting all the agencies together to collaboratively work with warburtons on that plan. So I guess, quite early in my career, I saw that kind of client agency relationship, and how well it worked, and how, you know, as an agency team, we, from my perspective, anyway, we did everything we could to support their plan with the right insights, the right data on time, because, you know, they took us in, brought us into their objectives and their plan and their strategy really early on. And you feel part of us, you know, it was part of the reason I then wanted to get into a brand team, and, you know, start making those plans myself. And I think, you know, there are lots of sectors that can work, it doesn't have to be, you know, in the creative world, or, you know, in a world of creative agencies, I think your suppliers, you know, I think if if the relationship is good, you can, you know, look at, look at the challenges we're seeing on things like packaging right now, across the country, you know, the relationships you have with your packaging, suppliers are pretty critical at a time like this. And so I just think that investment in relationships with your suppliers, whatever form they may take upfront, and over time is really, really important. Because, you know, you need them to be an extension of your team and the time for crisis. But you also need them to be an extension of your team when you're in, you know, great growth and when times are good, because, you know, they, they, they'll have your back. And I think that's, it works both ways. Yeah. Brilliant,
Rich Seddon:thanks for that. It's really interesting to hear. So building upon that, then and really interested in this theme of translating that creative process into the actual operational activities. When you've described there, you've got 500 stores, geographically spread, the actual operational discipline, man have certainly been the implementation of campaigns and things like that must be a major challenge for you. So how does that work? And then talk us through because you've been involved in several companies with a similar setting where where that you've got scale, but the the discipline of implementation from translating that creative process must play a key factor in how do you do that successfully?
Katie Evans:It's, um, I mean, there is no perfect and I don't think I certainly don't think I've cracked it I you know, I think it's one of these constantly evolving. How do we how do we communicate better internally? How do we engage the right stakeholders, but I think it's a being conscious of it. And being aware that actually your customer is not just the end customer, or, you know, that particular strategic segment of customer that we're trying to speak to your customer is as much internal and, and in internal stakeholders at all levels of the business, if you really want to make a campaign happen, or if you really want to achieve a certain objective, and for something to go, Well, you really, really need to, to rely on, not rely on earn the buy in, of, of those internal stakeholders. And I think, you know, we have even more of more complexity, or there is should I say, more complexity in in the Burger King business, you know, with the addition probably more than I've experienced elsewhere, because you also have an additional layer of franchisees, you know, is there another group of stakeholders that we need to, to inform and communicate well to and explain why we're doing certain things. So, you know, we own a number of stores, and we have franchisee run stores as well, and that that communication piece is really critical. And I guess, for me, a very good example of that coming to life and the need to get that, you know, translating, you know, a creative process into, you know, how do we bring it to life operationally, was when we did meltdown. So the meltdown campaign was, it was a truly creative campaign, but it was very much dependent on the translation of that, selling it into stakeholders at all levels of our business, and, and really getting the message across in the right way and selling it into ops and supply chain, because they were essentially, you know, the two areas of our business that were going to really bring it to life. So meltdown was born out of an idea that M. Again, it was a brief to a packaging brief to an agency, we always wanted to reduce and find a solution for the plastic toys that were in our kids meals and our King Jr. Kids mail, we knew we wanted to move away from a non biodegradable plastic toy and brings something alternative for kids to play with something sustainable and recyclable. And they took that packaging brief, and came back with a much bigger idea. And that was how meltdown was born. So we basically took the groundbreaking step of removing all plastic toys from our King Jr. Meals overnight. And not just on the removal of the toys from the business. But we also called an amnesty on the public to donate their free plastic giveaway toys from other brands, as well, to Amnesty bins and Burger King restaurants across the UK for recycling. And we were then taking that plastic and taking it to a another supplier who were going to melt that down, and turn it into repurpose it into plastic for play areas, and everyday restaurant items such as trays. So that the goal was very clear.
Rich Seddon:Would I be right in saying that you you talk about stakeholders there. That's way beyond just the storage, you must have had the actual supply chain, the manufacturers of the raw materials, you're purchasing guys, your budgeting team and your finance teams, that that was a big stakeholder exercise I imagine.
Katie Evans:Massive, massive and, you know, bear in mind, you know, the plastic toys are something you know, that appear in Burger King King Jr. Meals globally. And while the UK might make a decision to remove plastic toys, that will have implications for the rest of the world in terms of, you know, volumes that are being produced. And you know, what impact that has, we knew, and we were very supportive globally, and we knew that it was the right thing to do for the UK, there was a huge spotlight on you know, single use plastics that continues to be. But we also had, you know, a very clear objective, right? When we started working, working with the Burger King brand, you know, how do we introduce more sustainable practices? How do we reduce waste? How do we improve sustainability and bring that into all aspects of our business. And this was very much a journey we were taking. But we just we realized that by doing this overnight and being so drastic, not just kind of removing it slowly, over time, that it was going to have a big knock on effect for everything you said it was going to, you know, there was it was going to cost us It wasn't going to be it wasn't about a cost saving exercise, this was actually going to cost us because, you know, you have to find an alternative. But you also need to find a way to melt this plastic down and find a supplier to turn it into, safely turn it into and repurpose it into something else. And we, you know, needed to make sure that the restaurants were properly informed that, you know, they they really understood why we were doing it. And that when customers went into the restaurants that they you know, the path was very clear, the journey was clear for the customer. You know, I dropped off my plastic toy here. And I'm now going to get a kid's meal that won't have a toy in it. So what does it mean? And I think you know, we had to manage the, I guess selling the idea across the business, but really take the creative idea and make sure that it could work. And as much as we wanted to say, go, go go, let's do this next week, it couldn't have worked like that. But when we got everyone around the table, when we really explained what we were trying to do, and what the benefit would be, you know, everyone was hugely supportive. It just needed to take time. And it needed to be, this is not a marketing, you know, campaign. This is a, it's a whole business campaign, and we need to all really get behind it if we're going to make it work. And we did. And, you know, overnight, that September, we removed our plastic toys from from the kids meals and and it saved approximately 320 tons of single use plastic in a year. So, I mean, it was a significant change for the business. It requires, again, strong internal relationships and strong communication, and I'm sure if they wanted to tear their hair, this is what we wanted to do. But everyone could see we were doing it for the right reasons. And everyone could see it linked back to the original, you know, strategy and direction we wanted to take as a business. So it was true to that it wasn't a, you know, let's do this. Because, you know, it feels like the right thing to do this week. It wasn't about that it
Rich Seddon:was something that we had talked about for a very long time. But we just brought it forward, and did it, I guess quicker than we we had originally planned to do. And thinking about the coalface. So there's the stores. And the the people that work in the stores who deal with the customers who no longer have the plastic toy in their in their meal? How did you work? How did you work with them? And how did you engage them and inform them? What was the messaging like,
Katie Evans:funnily enough, the messaging we used was very much in keeping with the consumer messaging, because, you know, at the end of the day, we're all consumers. And we sold to them why we were doing it, you know, so that they fully understood why we were doing as we know, it is the right thing to do to not have, you know, single use plastic toys that ends up in the footwell of your car. For weeks and months on played with, we have to give them the quick equip them with the information that they could communicate the same message to customers. But I think on a on a consumer level, everyone understood why we were doing it and really got behind us. And then sharing the success stories with them. So sharing, you know, the news coverage that we had, and explaining, you know, if it was the right thing to do, and we've had an amazing response from customers on what we've done, and that can only be a good thing for the brand. So I think, you know, they, they were very engaged with it in the same way, as you know, we saw a positive customer center sentiment and a really positive customer response to it.
Rich Seddon:And I think you've hit the nail on the head, there is something in my experience I see is often missed in in transformation and improvement programs. It's like communication of the success and the communication of the impact back to the, to the storefront, the shop floor level, the operator level. So the impact of that work that I did those customers I dealt with, I broke the news to these kids that there's no plastic toys, and it's not a mistake, they actually understand the impact. And we see time and time again, where that's part of the loop that people miss. So it's really fascinating to hear from you on that, on that impact. And the fact that you
Katie Evans:get out, and we are by no means perfect, you know, we need to constantly look at that and improve it. And, you know, how do we make that communication? How do we make sure it comes sooner in the process? You know, how do we go out of our way to engage our teams, you know that it's a constant, you know, evolution, but we need to it's it's bringing our teams on board with us and really, you know, yeah, sharing in the success of of campaigns that I remember from meltdown, you know, they were all sending through pictures and photographs from the restaurants that had the, you know, the amnesty bins in we had meltdown, crowns, meltdown, packaging, and posters, but like the boxes themselves, they were all recyclable packaging, I must add. But it it allowed them feel that they could get behind us. I think they also have meltdown t shirts. So they were very much part of the campaign. And we find when we do that, it they may seem like little things but they're actually very important and making everyone feel like you know, there's there's something new and it's exciting. And there's a reason we're doing
Rich Seddon:well yeah, indeed. And at the end of the day, the you guys can in the in the center, Dara, so you can come up with as many wonderful ideas as as you like. It's down to the implementation at the coalface the end of the day they have the power to to make or break any kind of campaign, be it operational or marketing campaign. So that's fascinating to hear how you've engaged them in that way. It's really interesting to a different subject, if I may. I'm really interested. Yeah, with your experience in the plethora of brands that you've worked both directly and indirectly with customer experiences that you admire both specific occasions and companies. I'm really interested to hear the what the Watson the wise What What does someone in your job, look out For him, when when are they impressed?
Katie Evans:I mean, I guess, all through my career, particularly when I moved into this probably, Krispy Kreme, and then very much, you know, when we got into the world of casual dining at Gbk, I've always been impressed by what retail fashion retail are doing. Because I always feel that they are, they have always been quite agile, because they've had to be, it's a very fast moving sector. And consumer trends and consumer behaviors change, you know, very, very quickly. And consumers expectations are super high. And, you know, I mean, they are across the board, but I always find that in fashion, retail, I've always watched what they have done, because I feel particularly in things like digital and delivery, digital online experience, you know, online customer journeys, they they've been successful brands, and the success, successful fashion retailers, the likes of Athos, the likes of many of the high street brands, have just been super agile, and really responsive to, to customer needs. And, you know, recognizing that, you know, the high street, unfortunately, has been incredibly challenged, even more so in the last 18 months, but many of them were had been agile previously, and therefore were set up for something like that they were set up to respond and react and make sure that, you know, people could still essentially shop from the comfort of their homes and the safety of their homes, and have, you know, clothes brought to them safely and decide clothes or other fashion items. And, you know, try them on and send them back if you know if they weren't right, and everything to be processed online very seamlessly, I'm sure there, there are good and bad examples. But I've always looked at that particular sector, because I think there are some real kind of winning examples there. And I guess, you know, naturally, I'm going to look at restaurants and look at the hospitality sector and what people have done. And, you know, I think it has been a shocker of a year for many, you know, casual or fine dining brands, you know, based in the city centers, you know, based around CBD areas where people are just, you know, people just stopped coming overnight, essentially. And I think the brands that remained agile through the pandemic, and probably already had that agility built into their business, you know, had an interest or a basis of granting and, you know, using tech, or a keenness to kind of get the right tech on board, they were able to transform customer experiences, despite the challenges of the pandemic, removing barriers to purchase, you know, and making it easier for customers to access their brands. And I think, you know, for me, things like the homebox schemes that that restaurants implemented, like the likes of hawks more at home, you know, it's an example of taking, you know, what may have been, you know, business lunches, and special occasion meals out and bringing it into your home, you still want a special occasion, we all needed that lift, but it was about bringing that special into your home, and you know, that would have created, you know, there would have been a huge amount of work to set that up and to try and set it up quickly. But it added value for the customer, while also adding value, and future proofing their businesses, giving them you know, an additional sales channel, even post pandemic, I'm sure it will still go well. But I just think it's amazing what these brands have done to really kind of say, okay, the customer's needs have changed, their behaviors have changed, we need to respond to that directly, what can we do? And I think when you get into that, solutions, planning with the right people in your team, you can make amazing things happen. And I think, you know, many of these brands have created sales channels and sales routes that they didn't, they hadn't even considered previously. And I think, you know, are they fast tracked digital processes that, you know, we certainly have in our business, you know, to get to the customer and find ways to engage the customer. When other restrictions have meant that you can do it in the traditional way. And I think that that's, I think that that's really exciting. And I you know, it is awful what happened but it's amazing how it something like that can drive that level of creativity and opportunity. And I think the right brands pivoted to that, and should, you know, are well deserving of their success because they you know, they put the work in,
Rich Seddon:but it reinforces the concept of the customer being at the center and I think earlier on you, you described when you're talking about stakeholders here but both the customer on the street as it were, and and all those other internal and unseen customers it reinforces for me and that that example you've just described, understand the customer needs and build your processes backwards from that point. interview is the key essence of what what all those examples you've just described have done.
Katie Evans:Yeah. Yeah. And and that requires, you know, you won't be able to get all the information straight away. But you can, you know, there is a lot of information on on customer behavior out there. And if you are lucky enough to have your own direct source of consumer insight be that you know, an app or a CRM database or whatever, there are ways of, you know, listening to your customer and getting that feedback, and really kind of watching their behaviors, even watching their behaviors in other categories can inform your own. And I think that that's, you know, I just think that's important. Yeah. And equally, you know, there's a lot of research that will have, you know, we noticed through the pandemic, there was a lot of macro research out there. But in terms of really researching customer behavior, in the traditional sense, it was more difficult to do, because everything was changing all the time. And when so many factors are changing, it's hard to get a good read to it to get a clear read on, you know, what is the behavioural change, this week, first is a more permanent shift. And, you know, some of that is trusting, you know, there's a little bit of trusting your gut, that this is the right thing to do. And, but it's finding the information and insight that you can find or making changes, and really saying, Okay, how did that work? What was the impact? And, you know, what would we do differently next time. And I think it was very tricky through, you know, through the pandemic, and I wasn't involved for all of it, because I was on that leave. But, you know, that the team remained agile, and, and, you know, changed and pivoted. And I think that that's just so, so critical, and so important. And I think, you know, who knows if, you know, the kind of growth we've seen in delivery is going to, you know, stay at that level for the long term as the high street reopens, you know, things are going to change again. But I think for any brands that have been through this last 18 months, I think you will have learned a lot in terms of how to adapt to changing customer needs and behaviors. And, you know, the fact that you know, one size does not fit all, and you're going to have to, you know, have be willing to make those changes if you want to, to engage the customer.
Rich Seddon:Interesting. So I think what you've, what you've described there is, reflects a piece of research that that I came across a few months ago, around Good, good decision making in the science of good decision making, I was actually in preparation for one of our webinars. And I came across a piece of research actually dating from 1921, that everyone I've described this to those by a guy called Frank Knight, and he was talking about risk and, and the concept of risk and the understanding of risks to a good decision making. I think what you've just described there is about leavers, knowing which lever you're pulling, but so many factors changing at any one time to be unsure of which lever is being pulled. And this research I found by Frank Knight, we're on Ron approaches to risk distinguished really simply in put risk into two categories, put the concept of risk into two categories. And he defined risk itself as that that you can measure, whereas uncertainty is that which you can't measure. And that really struck me to help clear the set the old expression, the wheat from the chaff. And I think what you've described there with the with the so many things changing, that's actually falls into the category of uncertainty. Whereas traditionally, in in, in the non pandemic environment, we'd have caught that all risk, and try to manage it all. And I think there's a greater acceptance of experimentation. I'm wondering if that's something that you've witnessed, and it sounds like you have from the examples you've described, a greater willingness for experimentation amongst top teams. And to change quickly or change course quickly, how likely do you think that is to stick post pandemic?
Katie Evans:I'd like to think I mean, it's, it's one of those things, I think if you've had a success in any aspect of your business by, you know, responding or trying something in that uncertain environment, I think you will naturally think, okay, we can do this again, you will have the confidence to, to, you know, try something in an uncertain uncertain time, I have no doubt that, you know, people will be kind of wish should be Boyd by that. But I also think some of it is around the culture of the business and, you know, the culture of, you know, we've always been a very brave brand, particularly when it comes to you know, making creative decisions, but some of it is also just part of our culture, because at the very beginning, you know, there were a lot of things that we we hadn't tried And it, you know, we had to try a lot of things to really understand, okay, what is working what works for us. So there's a level of comfort in that uncertainty. And we're learning more and more and things are becoming, you know, a little bit more certain, a little bit more comfortable, that's the wrong word. But we know more than we ever did. And, but I think, you know, people should recognize that, you know, there will be a level of uncertainty for a very long time. And, you know, almost there is no flat kind of safe period to work with, we probably need to be, get comfortable with uncertainty and just say, okay, we need to kind of test and learn and something might work on this occasion, and, you know, what was it about everything we do, we should be reviewing it looking back. And I mean, I say this, we're not always doing this, and we need to do it more. But, you know, what was it about that that works? so well? And, and how do we kind of pan some of that, but also comfort in saying that didn't work? And why didn't that work? You know, could we have improved it? Or was it just the wrong route to take? And I think there's a fear of failure naturally. I mean, nobody wants to be, you know, spending a huge amount of money on a campaign that, you know, doesn't succeed. And, yes, we would all love the, the luxury of time to test and time to learn and, you know, time to do a dummy test of anything before you actually launch but in many cases, you just don't have that, that luxury. But maybe we need to be a bit more comfortable with things not always going to plan and recognizing that we need to adapt and change and learn again. Yeah,
Rich Seddon:yeah, absolutely. What would a great lesson in any sector, any walk of life? So one final question for you, leaders, and all companies that you admire, and why?
Katie Evans:I mean, the companies it's, it's interesting, because I think if you ask anyone, maybe I'm wrong. But I think if you ask most people in marketing, the companies we admire, you tend to see the same names coming up again, and again, like you'll see Netflix, and you'll see john lewis, and, you know, brands that have you know, transformed, you know, a space, particularly something like Netflix, or Apple, where they've done something really transformative in people's lives. And, you know, we all need a Netflix during the pandemic, anyone you know, who was locked up at home, I think, between Netflix and Disney, depending what kind of situation you're in, I think they were all they were all lifelines. But I'm going to say, I mean, there's loads that there are lots of brands that I really admire, I love Paddy Power, I think they're so brave. I think their creative ideas are just epic. But I really, really like what nationwide are doing. And I think the reason I like what nation wide and Sarah benison their cmo are doing is I always look at their campaigns and think that just doesn't feel like what you would expect from a financial institution. It's very human, you might have seen, they do a lot of TV adverts with. It's called nationwide voices. So the adverts featuring poets reading their work, they're very stripped back, and very authentic and human. And I guess they're just communicating in a way that you would not expect from a financial institution. And I think they adapted that. And they're a good example of being agile. They adapted those adverts to the pandemic to really reflect what was going on and consumers lives at that time. And at that moment, I think that was I just thought it was so impressive. It is isn't it? And really interesting, yeah, not what you would expect. And I think it's that real human voice that and that they give and the campaign's that they get involved in behind the scenes, you know, they really mean something they are, you know, they are not, you know, jumping on any bandwagon you can tell that it's, you know, it's it, that real human element to what they do is fundamental to their brand. And I just find them yeah, I find it really impressive and really interesting. And I follow, I always follow what they do. And they're very different to, you know, the world I'm in but I yeah, I really admire that.
Rich Seddon:That's brilliant. Thank you very much. And we're coming to the to the end now which which I'm really disappointed about because it's been absolutely fascinating talking to you amazing hearing those experiences, and from such a different perspective for translating that creative experience into the into the customer experience to produce better results. So thank you so much for joining us, and I'm sure I'm sure our listeners will have got a lot out of this. So I really do hope you've enjoyed this episode of pmis podcast leading for Business Excellence. If you'd like to know more about how you can develop your career and Business Excellence and transform your organization. Please do drop us a line. You may have gathered We'd love to talk team@pmi.co.uk we'd really love to hear from you. And don't forget to subscribe using your usual podcast service so you don't miss any episodes in this series. You will also find a wealth of free resources, videos, infographics and webinars in our knowledge hub, which you can find on our website pmi.co.uk. Thanks again, Katie for being such a fantastic guest. And thank you everyone for joining us.