In this episode, we're joined by David Callaghan, former Senior Vice President of Oracle EMEA, President of the British Quality Foundation until 2019, and B2B business leader in Executive and Non-Executive roles.
David describes his career in I.T. as a happy accident, but it’s quite clear that he’s thrived in the world of technology and enjoyed being part of the industry's evolution over the last 4 decades. He talks with passion about the role of a leader, the need to listen, learn and improve.
Listen out for David’s thoughts on the importance of creating teams who will challenge you as a leader and also of developing connections between business and the local community, and how the benefits really are two-way.
More from PMI:
In this episode, we're joined by David Callaghan, former Senior Vice President of Oracle EMEA, President of the British Quality Foundation until 2019, and B2B business leader in Executive and Non-Executive roles.
David describes his career in I.T. as a happy accident, but it’s quite clear that he’s thrived in the world of technology and enjoyed being part of the industry's evolution over the last 4 decades. He talks with passion about the role of a leader, the need to listen, learn and improve.
Listen out for David’s thoughts on the importance of creating teams who will challenge you as a leader and also of developing connections between business and the local community, and how the benefits really are two-way.
More from PMI:
Hello, and welcome to PMI's Podcast Leading for Business Excellence. In this episode, I'm joined by David Callahan, former Senior Vice President of Oracle EMEA, and President of the BQf until 2019. David describes his career in IT as a happy accident. But it's quite clear that he's absolutely thrived in the world of technology, and enjoyed being part of it, his evolution over the last four decades. He talks with passion about being a leader, the need to listen, learn and improve, to create teams who will challenge you as a leader, and how from that challenge, greater results can be achieved. Do listen out for his thoughts on the importance of developing connections between business and the local community, and how the benefits of that work really are two way. I'm Susannah Clarke, Managing Partner of PMI, the performance improvement consulting and training firm. Our leading for Business Excellence podcast brings inspiring stories from across the globe, and a multitude of sectors, talking with great leaders who share their experience, and what Business Excellence means to them. I do hope you enjoyed this conversation with David as much as I did. Hi, David. Welcome to Leading for Business Excellence. And thank you so much for joining me today.
David Callaghan:Pleasure to be here. Thank you for the invitation.
Susannah Clarke:I'm very interested in your career, which is obviously spanned many different areas and wondered if you'd like to just give us a brief introduction to yourself
David Callaghan:Certainly. So about four decades ago, I left Newcastle University with a degree in maths and computing to become a software engineer, which in those days was a very new kind of job title. And I started out as a programmer for CAD CAM, computer aided design, computer aided manufacturing, which again at that time was very innovative. And so I've got the engineering background there. But perhaps like many engineers rapidly moved into pre sales getting closer to customers and the customer experience of them using the product. And then from there into sales. And where I've really been for 35 years and in sales management roles with a number of companies but principally digital equipment as one, KPMG consulting and 17 years with Oracle. For the last three years, I've been doing board advisory roles for a number of companies. Now alongside that there's been some interesting opportunities to do some non executive work, and some not for profit work. And so the kinds of roles I've really enjoyed there, I was on the board of intellect, which is effectively the trade association for IT now called tech UK, I was with them for a number of years, three years as president, I've been president of the British Quality Foundation, which really looks to promote individual and organizational excellence. I was there for 11 years, and then various other roles on CBI groups and committees and an organization called eSkills which again, a very interesting one, promoting digital skills through all the ages and an age groups. And so just a variety of opportunities to be involved in learning and contribute.
Susannah Clarke:And it's interesting that you're still very involved in digital skills and obviously that's where your career started. But as you say, four decades ago, that was a very new field and I'm particularly interested because CAD CAM was particularly new. So what was it that got you on that path at university?
David Callaghan:So great question and I think it was probably a happy accident. I was lucky enough to be involved linking up in those days a telephone onto a modem to a computer miles and miles away and hear it click away. And it was fascinating and I think my mother would rather I was an accountant or something. But this new technology fields seem particularly interesting and, so did that when I when I left university, I was fortunate enough to get a job with a company called Reco Redack, who did CAD CAM. And what was fascinating about that in those days, it was graphical computing, and it was color graphics. And that was incredibly exciting because in those days, everything was bought black and white, mainly text and just just moving into more of a graphic sense. So perhaps it was the appeal of almost feeling a bit like a pioneer, and we're quite sure it was quite that close. But it certainly was a great voyage to start on, but very much a happy accident. And I think Susannah, what I found since is the innovations continued, yes, it never stops. You know how lucky have I been to be in it for 40 years through all the transitions and changes. Coming into things like Internet and everything that that has offered as it's been, it's been fantastic and fascinating and rewarding place to be. So yeah, I'm very grateful for the happy accident.
Susannah Clarke:Good. And you said yourself that obviously you you know, you started off in that much more an engineering role and then and then move towards sales, that's quite a shift change, isn't it because, you know, tend to think of engineers almost with their heads under blankets in a very dark room. That's absolutely not what you want from a salesperson. So you talk a bit about how, what made you want to make that transition?
David Callaghan:Again, I think I think it was just fate of fate and fortune. And, and when I started, yes, as an engineer. As an engineer, you really admire the practitioners, and all my all my heroes, if you like, who were the practitioners and people who were particularly good at soft software engineering, and but again, at that time, when you'd created software, you couldn't download it, you couldn't connect to the internet and install, you have to go out with a disk under your arm to install it. And, and I was fortunate enough to go on a number of installation trips, actually, mainly overseas, I was doing North Northern Europe installation, so you get the big disc, yeah, you have to get a license for it in those days to be able to, to travel, but then spend a number of days on a customer site, installing your software, and checking that it works. And that way, I started to get a lot of visibility. So the customers, the environments, what they were looking for, what constituted quality in their terms, what really met the expectations that they actually had. And actually, the more I found myself working with customers, frankly, the more I like them, you know, it's this constant opportunity to see what you're doing, go into a different environment, and start to achieve a result and learn some more. So I would imagine if I wasn't going out and doing the installations and had been if you like backup bass under the blanket, doing lots of the core coding life could have been very, very different.
Susannah Clarke:Yes. And that I mean, that is a very unusual experiences and said that and I can see how the need for that as you describe, because actually often, IT departments are quite removed from the customer That they can be. And maybe actually just reflecting on that now, this whole world of you download and install at the touch of a button. And never, if you have that intimacy, the intimacy comes later somebody may send you a survey.
David Callaghan:How do you rate our software five? Well, that's one way of doing it. But frankly, as an engineer, there's nothing quite like being on site and somebody giving you immediate feedback as to whether your software, your product, is really meeting the requirements that they that they have, there's a certain immediacy there, which gets the attention.
Susannah Clarke:And I love that idea of it. You talk about intimacy and immediacy. And I'm interested because obviously, you know, we talk a lot about quality in a Business Excellence. So in that role that you had going out and visiting customers, were what was the onus on you to feed back what you learned about the customer to your leadership back at base?
David Callaghan:Oh, incredible. Because it was a substantial system, a CAD CAM system, people were, we were designing significant pieces of equipment that were designing cranes, they were designing power stations. And the particular CAD CAM that I was working on was mainly for electrical, so big electrical circuits. And, frankly, those have got to work. Andso they were large contracts. And there was always that desire. When I, when I got back from my trip to understand, right? How had that gone? What worked? Well, were there any things that we needed to think of for the future? Because technology doesn't, as we know, it doesn't stand still it will constantly evolve. And while we can think as engineers and designers of software, we kind of have the best ideas. Actually, the customers have some pretty good ones as well. They will they will give a lot of feedback. So it would have been really good if we could have that or in the future. Could you look at that. And so yes, there was a lot of interest in in getting a first hand view, which I was lucky to get. And if you like it a very honest transparent level there was kind of no commercial agenda in it. It would often be two practitioners, technicians talking together about a product and and that gives you an opportunity to explore some new avenues and new potential.
Susannah Clarke:Yes, that sounds that sounds so interesting. I can and I like that idea that it was with practitioners in particular. Again, and it was a conversation.
David Callaghan:Absolutely was. And for me it was the start of a learning of, of dealing with different cultures. Because your conversation with somebody from a different place, actually, you've got to tune into it. And it can, it can, it can take a little while. But, again, that was all part of the fun.
Susannah Clarke:So you moved into sales, at what point did you start to move into more, you know, management leadership positions, David,
David Callaghan:Really quite quickly, I probably only been selling for a year or so. And my, my move to sales was prompted by the fact that the salesman all got very nice cars. And sorry, sorry if that sounds very shallow. But as a 20, something year old,
Susannah Clarke:you were young David
David Callaghan:I was young, I was young, he easily, easily impressionable. And so, so moved into sales. And I think because I'd come from a very strong product background, I could I could relate very quickly in a technical world to those customers. And I'd got some commercial rough edges to knock off, but I was working with some some really great people who were pretty quick and knocking those off. And then went on actually, therefore, relatively quickly into sales management. And that's been endlessly fascinating journey as well.
Susannah Clarke:So you've been leading sales, you know, for most of the rest of your career.
David Callaghan:Yeah. Thinking about it probably for about 35 years.
Susannah Clarke:And what would you say is the art of being a good leader in that sales environment,
David Callaghan:The art? I think thing about sales is it's actually an art and a science. From from my experience, there is a science of selling in terms of understanding the ratios that one needs to build in terms of building a pipeline, and then creating those prospects and from that, getting the potential qualified into maybe demonstrations and quotations president, all those kinds of things, there is a there is a science to it, but then there's definitely an art to it as well, the the ability to, to empathize with people to understand, to listen, to respond, to challenge, in a in a very constructive way. And sometimes to be able to go both sides of the table. And to have a mixture, a mixture of styles. So I think there are a number of things that have that contributes to a successful sales career, but probably listening is, is right up there.
Susannah Clarke:And from my experience, you know, most companies, you need some form of sales or channel or, you know, whatever mechanism you've chosen in order to get yourself to Market. But one of the challenges is that the sales people can often be seen as the naughty children, they're the, they're the people that you have to put up with, but actually, they cause challenges within the organization. And, and it becomes very easy. Do you know, if that person hadn't sold that and it wasn't sales? We'd all be fine. Even though it's core obviously, to success, how did you find that, coping with that?
David Callaghan:And again, I, I can relate to that. And I can I can I can understand that and but i think it's it's it's driven from a good place that the salespeople have goals to achieve. And, and while it's sometimes it can, it can appear that they can be single minded, to the point of being maybe destructive rather than constructive, I think it is absolutely possible to harness the energy that they have, and to really make sure that that they are going in a direction which is yes, you're going to get the desired result. But frankly, nobody wants to be picking up pieces afterwards. You know, I I've had I've had salespeople who can knock any door down, which is kind of good until you realize you need another 15 people to pick up all the pieces afterwards. And so it's it's actually creating that understanding that sales is only successful when it's sustainable. And, and that you can keep going back and working with the same customers developing those clients developing, the services, the opportunity, so, so sales is not a one off hit and run. It is, in my experience, when it works well, it's really built to be sustainable on the back of the relationships that make the whole world work and a degree of collaboration, I think.
Susannah Clarke:Yes. And I think your point earlier about leadership is about listening. I think sales is similar, isn't it? It's about listening to the customer.
David Callaghan:It is and again, it doesn't always have to be how can I put it a cozy and comfortable environment and conversation. And I think one of the things I learned very, very early and one of perhaps my formative experiences. I'd just become, a sales manager for some time, and just joined a new team with a great team that was revered almost. And people I admired and respected with with a very charismatic and capable leader. And I went to my first meeting, and was very excited about it. I thought, great, great. I'm going to learn a tremendous amount here. But it was like a bear pit. I remember thinking what's happening here. And afterwards, I remember the sales leader came up to me, and I can't remember whether it was physically or metaphorically put his arm around me. And he said, David, you weren't comfortable with that, were you? And I said, No, no, I, there was a lot of conflict there. He said, Yeah. But But actually, he said, it's out of the heat, the diamonds come. And that was a very, for me, profound learning that by having the heat, by having the robust debate, actually, you got a better than average answer. That if it was just an average conversation, you are likely to get an average outcome, if everybody agreed, you probably hadn't moved forward from when you all entered the room. And, and for me, that was a fantastic little learning to be able to have that debate. And I think there are a couple of things I took away from that. One is people need to be listened to. They absolutely need to be listened to. But then they do need a decision as well. Because the debate cannot be endless. There has to be a decision, that goes with that debate. And I found that with that team, and perhaps what made them so strong, was the debate could be fierce. But once the decision was made, it was total collaboration to make it work. There was no, there was none of that leave the meeting and have a bit of backbiting. You're letting go, I'm gonna have another run at this. It was okay. I've had my chance. I've had my say, the decisions been taken, I will absolutely be constructive and collaborative and, and work with that. And so that became a strong learning for me that collaboration as much as decisiveness is part of leadership. And the other one that I've always remembered because he's, he's others say he was out of heat the diamonds come the other one was you need grit in the oyster, which I've always liked as well. And, and that was to have different people on your team never have a team of mini-mes because everybody environment screams all the time. And so yeah, I've always tried to have somebody maybe one or two or three who actually I know will cause a bit of discomfort. But from a good from a good place. And, and it's always worked those those people have made the team a better team. So yes, sales sales is an interesting place and the characters within it are endlessly fascinating. But again, I've I've learned a lot from all of them.
Susannah Clarke:Yes, and I love that idea of collaboration and that and that, you know, you choosing to select some characters who would stand up and challenge because I think sometimes as a leader, you know, it can be a lonely job, can't it and, or it can lead to some degree of tunnel vision, that you become focused and you stop hearing the voices around you. So it because then because they're either not being listened to, or they're not brave enough to stand up. So, creating that environment where actually it necessitates because there are people there who will stand up and say are actually there. I think there are some things we want to talk about as to really why we should do this or why we shouldn't do that. Very healthy.
David Callaghan:No, you're absolutely right, because I certainly don't I suspect very few people have the gift of being absolutely right. Every time. I try. I try, I tried, but actually I know I fail and and if you surround yourself with good people and constructive, robust debate, then then actually you will find a better answer and I'm saying a better answer rather than a right answer. Because I think you know, often there's this this this quest to find the right answer. And in business, perhaps in life, there's not always the right answer. But it's finding the best, what is the best we can do in the situation in which we find ourselves? And I think, I think that's why I kind of went on to be involved with the British Quality Foundation, because it was very much around being the best you can be because I can't understand why anybody would want to be anything else. Yes, and being the best you can be actually requires other people, you can't be the best in isolation as something I found.
Susannah Clarke:You mentioned that actually quite early in your career. And I know obviously, certainly in your time in Oracle, you were frequently involved or working overseas looking after regions, not just the UK. What do you, What's your observations, learning, from leading those different cultures of how you do that effectively
David Callaghan:It's back to listening and collaboration. And I think I think probably my most rapid learning experiences have been when I've been overseas working with with other other cultures and other cultures, you don't have to be in a different continents, you actually don't have to travel that far, to realise that people have a different slant on things and have a different way of articulating things and have a different way of reaching an agreement and have a different way of demonstrating their disapproval. And the one has to learn to tune into that. And and therefore, I think that there has to be a certain intensity and rapidity to that, because you know, frankly, if you keep on missing the signals, misunderstandings will inevitably happen, as we see as the way of the world between different different people and, and Business and Commerce is no different. And, and so I think I think I did learn to tune into people and to listen to people and learn from those people. And I would always invite feedback from certainly those early formative experiences, from my colleagues in those countries and for and from customers and the partners, just to make sure that that that I was perhaps getting the message over that I needed to, but also hearing the messages that I needed, I needed to. And and I think perhaps that's another thing I've learned, it's always worth doing the checks and balances. Yes, don't ever leave with an assumption. Because we all understand what assumption is. And it's always worth doing a check and balance just to make sure that your understanding is right.
Susannah Clarke:And so over the course of your leisure, whether it's been, you know, through your career, or really since you've moved into much more of a portfolio career, would you say the most challenging situation you've come across as a leader has been?
David Callaghan:Oh, I think every day is a challenge as a leader. And I know that sounds trite, but but there is a degree of truth in it.
Susannah Clarke:I understand. Yes, I understand what you mean.
David Callaghan:Either, either with customer situations, or suppliers or partners or, or or colleagues. There's, there's always, always some challenge, I think probably a time I remember is being a particular challenge, which is probably paled into insignificance compared to where we are with the pandemic. But at the time certainly felt an order of magnitude challenge greater than I'd faced before was the financial crisis. As we were going into the financial crisis, I think, I think there was a lot of fear around, there was individual fear, organisational fear, societal fear, but nobody quite knew what the outcome would be. And I was leading the UK organisation at the time. And so there are all kinds of challenges coming up as part of that environment. And I think what I saw happening was, because it became difficult to plan, perhaps a bit like now with a pandemic.
Susannah Clarke:Yeah, very much so.
David Callaghan:People came very transactional. And the problem with a transaction is that can be winners and losers, around a situation a commercial agreement or, or an issue regarding a product and things can very transactional. And my response to that was to put in, at the time, something that had been, perhaps left fallow for a number of years, was to put in an executive sponsorship program, which was to introduce into the customer situations, you know, an experienced individual who've been with the company some time who understood the breadth of what we offered, but also had the maturity to really engage with the customer, understand the context of their business, listen to them, but had no agenda. They weren't carrying a commercial goal, or A, B, or C, their goal was to make sure that the customer was happy, and was getting the level of response they needed from an organization that was really quite significant to them. And, and that reaped really great rewards. Because and it's back to that people knew they're being listened to. And there was never, perhaps Is there a magic dust of the situation went away. But everybody felt they'd had their say. And when the decision was was made, it could be done in a way that was felt to be constructive, and a very constructive outcome. So I think that was a time. I remember being particularly challenging. But the challenges were really quite diverse from the directions they came from.
Susannah Clarke:Yes. And and it's interesting, isn't it? Because I knowing with customers that I talk to now, you know, out of the challenges come great innovation. And sometimes you turn around, why don't we do that sooner?
David Callaghan:They do? And yeah, I think I think one of the things I found it was about that time, I started getting involved with the British quality foundation. And I have always been also word, a very impressed by Lean Six Sigma, and all the quality terms that go go around. And I tried, I tried to think, how can I distill this into something that I feel comfortable with in terms of articulating, and it was assess, learn, improve, share. But almost as simple as that, that that that was my quality, bro. And it's exactly as you say, you assess and learn. And as you do that, that with that challenge, there's the opportunity to improve, and having improved, guess what, you can share it and then everybody gets the benefit of it. And I think it's just so simple for for words apply to any kind of environment, situation organizations individual can actually give, give a lot of benefit. A lot of return.
Susannah Clarke:Yes. And the sharing, of course, you know, it's that, you know, what did we learn? And then how are we going to share what we've learned with people in order to grow and to continuously improve in what we do.
David Callaghan:And the other one that the other word that I kind of add occasionally is celebrate. Because actually, often any improvement can be hard. And no one needs to recognize reward and celebrate that at times. And so. So depending on the situation, celebrate can come in there as being. Yeah, I think this is one of those where we have actually want to take some time and say'good job!'.
Susannah Clarke:Yes. Yes. And and there's that reward for that team as well. But there is also that creating motivation elsewhere in the organization.
David Callaghan:Yeah, yes, absolutely. Because I think I think people, people need ambition, people need beacons, to be able to look at and say, yeah, hey, that's what good feels like. That's what good looks like. I want a part of that. And I think one of the things we found with the British quality foundation is is the awards process? Yes, you are absolutely recognising and celebrating the achievements of the individuals and companies. But what happens is everybody else's, I want the award. I want that, because that looks great.
Susannah Clarke:And I know that you've always felt quite passionate about connecting business with the local community. And I just wondered if you could just tell us a bit about that.
David Callaghan:Yeah, I think it's come from a number of directions Suzanna and and i think it became the significance of it became when i when i really joined intellect, which now Tech UK, which was the trade association from that and and there were hundreds of companies of all sizes, IT companies were part of that. One really gets the sense of power of it. And as in, I guess, I guess, many, many different professions, but but particularly with it to be an agent for improvement for an agent for inclusivity. But you also understand it can be an agent for isolation as well, because not everybody can engage with it. And therefore, getting out into the community, in order to help people improve, or feel included was very important, but also to prevent the isolation. And, and at Oracle, like many, many companies, we had what we call volunteer days where people have the opportunity to, to go out and volunteer their expertise and and i think in the early days, we were a bit naive, you know, our contribution, could we get going and painting a school? Yes. Yeah. And, and again, there is value in that. But we weren't the world's greatest painters. Other people probably could have done a better a better job, where we were skilled was was in it. And therefore taking those skills out on a voluntary basis into the community, to coach and mentor within schools or within businesses, I think proved to be a far more value. And far more value to those receiving, but also to those giving, because it was a real learning experience in terms of engaging with different types of people in different situations. And I think one of the things I've been I've been thrilled to see in, in lots of organizations subsequently, and it's not something that I I was ever involved with. There's been those technology companies that have gone out, particularly now to the elderly, to help the elderly understand, okay, this is an iPad, how do I, how do I do FaceTime? How can I How can I see that person that I can no longer be with? I think I think that's been fantastic. And so I think it is this thing about technology, tremendous power for good, but it can be isolating. And the more that those of us involved in it can be out there to, to leverage the good. And to address perhaps the the items that are the elements that present some kind of challenge.
Susannah Clarke:And you're completely right about the it being rewarding for those who are, who are the person going out and doing that, you know, I've shared with you. When I was at Oracle, having the opportunity to go to a secondary school in reading and talk to sixth formers about what a future in IT might look like, in the breadth of opportunity. And I came home from that, you know, on cloud nine, buzzing a great set of conversations with some really interesting 16 and 17 year olds, and it was it was incredibly rewarding.
David Callaghan:I remember similar when we were, I think, involved sponsoring and mentoring, with the Prince's Trust. And I attended a series of presentations from young people that blew blew me away, you know, the passion they had the passion they'd acquired for, for what technology could do and how they could see it shaping the future was just incredible. And and one gets, you feel A. proud but but B. humble. Because why aren't we doing this earlier? This, this, this, this benefit could have been accruing for so much, so much longer. So yeah, some some many happy, happy memories of those times.
Susannah Clarke:We've talked a lot about customers, and I'm interested in your experience as being a customer and standout experience that you've had either from a, you know, quality, or customer experience perspective?
Unknown:Well I'll give you one from perhaps just a week or two ago, and and this was this was nothing corporate or business related. It was a piece of work needed doing on my house. And forgive me, it's as simple as my inquiry was responded to exceedingly quickly. And knowledgeably, the person who came out to set it very engaging, listened, actually, firstly, arrived back on time, equipped with everything, was knowledgeable, put the quote in the same day, has subsequently done the work. And it is absolutely outstanding, to the point where there is actually no feedback I could have given him to improve. And it's, it's looking at the whole, that's, that's even to the point of Yes, being on time. And we know that every can always be on time. But you can, you can call call ahead. I think, I think the other thing was that I don't know about you, but often when you have work done on your house, the work they do is very good, but they can destroy what somebody else has done. If you understand me, the the, the painter will do a great a great job. But the painter may I know, paint over something that no longer works. There can be something something like, this guy, respected everybody's work, not not just their own. And maybe maybe that's part of it as well, somebody that respects all the players within an environment in which they're working. So maybe we're looking for something a little bit more substantial. But that, it did actually strike me up. The title is being exceptional, exceptional quality.
Susannah Clarke:I can't agree more. I mean, I just think that if you sat down and you know with that supplier and dissected all of the steps that had to be gone through in order to achieve that great outcome for you. This is no small feat, no matter what the size of company.
David Callaghan:Look, you are again absolutely because they have to send away for some parts that were non trivial and materials that were non trivia. And again, as we understand at the moment, in a pandemic, actually getting the materials can be kind of hard. But it's bang on time. Quality, he completed the job. So, on that one, I was very happy.
Susannah Clarke:Excellent. So I have a last question for you, David, which is, if reincarnation was an option for you, which leader would you come back as and why?
David Callaghan:Susannah, I thought this would be your desert island disc because I had kind of been forewarned by a by a previous speaker, and therefore I have given it some thought. And it's really hard. It is really hard. And I think part of the reason it's hard is that most leaders nowadays were familiar with their flaws. As we are with their qualities, you know, a good leader in conflict is not always a good leader in peace. A good leader and social justice is not always as suited to economic prosperity. And, and so you, you kind of have this on the one hand, and on the other side, I started thinking about attract, and and you may count me out here and say, No, there's got to be another answer to this, but I'm not sure what it what it would be. But I started to think of how many leaders would be proud of their legacy. And I'm not sure actually, even even looking, looking back in history, some of some of the great names would automatically think of how much of their legacy has really retained. And I came up, I came up with two, the first one I'll pass over, because I don't know enough about him. But Sun Tzu, who wrote the Art of War, which is a little book I kind of like and clearly a long time ago, being a General, a War General, and probably some things that he had to do that were a little more unsavory. But he wrote a very good book, and I love lots of his quotes
Susannah Clarke:and poems.
David Callaghan:And clearly a remarkable individual is that what he wrote 1000s of years ago is still credible currency. Other legacy, my favorite one of his his opportunities multiply as they are seized. And that's a great one for a sales guy opportunities multiplies. So, so he's kind of in in the mix. But, but the one I kind of alighted on was Nobel, as it the Nobel prizes. And, and clearly, he was a leader, a business leader in his in, in his lifetime. But I think not only did he create those things around success, and something sustainable, year after year after year, for stakeholders, and actually, his ambition, his stakeholders, humanity, that's a pretty, pretty big stakeholder. That that is that is a legacy. And I think another thing about good leaders is they mobilize to a vision, people will mobilize to that vision, and what he achieved after his deaths were so that's why this reincarnation thing may not quite work, would I reincarnate as a dead person, actually, is profoundly impressive, that he's left a legacy that will continue to drive success for humanity and recognise excellence. And there's probably not that many who kind of fall into that kind of bracket. So I'm not sure whether you'll allow that one. But I don't want to come up with.
Susannah Clarke:I will completely allow that one. And I think that Firstly, it's something that I it wouldn't have occurred to me. But I absolutely, that that sense of legacy that continues to be current and relevant and reaching out to stretch for, for excellence.
David Callaghan:That's it, isn't it that nobody Nobel Prize is not a trivial thing. You you not only have to be excellent, you always have to be extraordinarily excellent. And you're around areas and themes that are really quite challenging. And, and yeah, and it's it, it seems to continue year on year, and they'll always be a bit of controversy. Inevitably but but I think the the positive outweighs the negatives in terms of what it achieves.
Susannah Clarke:By far, by far. Thank you so much, David. It's been it's been a real pleasure. And I honestly thank you for your time today and for joining me. Your stories are really interesting. I love hearing your perspective.
David Callaghan:Very kind of you to say I've enjoyed it because It makes you think of things that you've done and people that you've met and experiences that you've that you've had. And I think the other thing we all understand is being made to thinks no bad thing. Thank you pleasure.
Susannah Clarke:Hope you enjoyed this episode of leading Business Excellence with David Callahan. Do Join us again next month when we're going to be talking to Joanne Humble. Joanne is Global Head of Business Process Improvement at Catalent Pharma Solutions. She's going to be sharing with us her practical experience of making change happen, engaging people in the process of change, and developing sustainable programs. So please do subscribe via your usual podcast service to ensure you don't miss it. And of course, if you'd like to know more about how you can develop your career in business excellence, and transform your organisation, please drop us a line team@pmi.co.uk We'd love to hear from you.