Peace & Prosperity Podcast
In the Peace & Prosperity Podcast, Jason Phillips, licensed therapist and life coach, shares personal experiences that force you to think deeply about your values, beliefs, and behaviors to ensure you achieve peace, happiness, and success in your life.
Peace & Prosperity Podcast
Healing From a Narcissist: Leon Walker on Breaking Free (Part 3) - Episode #92
The Peace & Prosperity Podcast is a bi-weekly conversation with Jason Phillips, LCSW, licensed therapist and confidence expert in Raleigh, NC, discussing all things related to self-love and self-confidence, and how we can improve ourselves personally and professionally.
What happens when a narcissist confronts his own reflection? In this raw conversation, retired Navy veteran Leon Walker shares how childhood trauma and unaddressed pain led to decades of manipulative behavior and broken relationships. He unpacks his concept of “The Seven Loveless Traits,” revealing how narcissists use affection and withdrawal to trap partners in toxic cycles. With striking honesty, Leon explains how he intentionally broke down women’s confidence while struggling with his own. He also offers practical strategies for breaking trauma bonds and reclaiming your identity. This episode is a must-listen for anyone seeking to understand narcissistic patterns—or break free from them.
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So I was in therapy with psychotherapists, psychologists, psychologists, social workers like ain't nothing wrong with me and I go into therapy. I see all these little degrees on the wall and I was like getting like mad, like oh so y'all are better than me, y'all gonna tell me about me. So two times I walked out of therapy.
Speaker 2:Welcome to the Peace and Prosperity Podcast, where we talk mental wellness, confidence and real-life tools to help high achievers thrive. I'm your host, jason Phillips, licensed therapist, speaker coach, and I'm glad you're here. Let's get into the episode. And so, leon, brother man. First of all, it's good to finally link up. No doubt In person.
Speaker 1:Right right.
Speaker 2:And you came through for me in the clutch.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, for sure I met you. What four years ago you came through for me. So interviews, yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 2:And so one thing I share with you your interview. We did it like two times. Yeah, it's been really helpful to my audience, people that I work with and coach, and I send it to people and they're like, oh my gosh, it doesn't matter if they're younger, older, Right, black Right, white Right. Professional and that message really hits. So, if you don't mind, just kind of give the people a little bit of backstory on who you are, your career and then how we kind of even connected.
Speaker 1:Okay, I'm Leon Walker, retired Navy. Served 32 years from Cleveland, ohio, retired in 2015. I spent 15 years out at sea. I've been deployed 11 times. I was a Navy recruiter for four years. That was a rough patch fun patch, but it was very rough. I was a drill sergeant in the Navy. We called it Recruit Division Commander and I was also an instructor in the Navy. I taught navigation for three years, joined the Navy in 1983, retired in 2015.
Speaker 1:I was married for 12 years, destroyed my marriage. I just destroyed all my relationships, just plowing through, didn't care. I have three kids, three adult kids, two sons and a daughter. I have a granddaughter that'll be three years old this August. I started talking about my personality disorder back in 2021 when my ex-girlfriend recommended she told me, she said well, god said to start doing videos on your personality disorder. I was like I'm not doing no video Cause I knew what was going to happen and it happened. I got exposed, but she was exposing me cause she was in the medical field. She knew about narcissism, so I was hiding but couldn't hide it cause she was on me.
Speaker 2:So let me ask you this Cause one being that transparent, that takes a lot of courage. I mean, I wasn't ready. And then you said something. I want you to expand on it, but you said you destroyed all of your relationships. Yeah, what does that look like?
Speaker 1:So what it looks like is cheating, first of all, and when you're cheating, you're lying. When you're lying, you're sneaking. When you're sneaking, you're ghosting. When you're ghosting, you're gaslighting all those traits. And they started identifying people with narcissistic personality disorder in the 70s and then in the 80s it kind of blew up and it kind of like went not dormant, but kind of hush-hush. They were different, everybody was considered a vulnerable narcissist. And then it went to like covert and grandiose and malignant and so forth and you had all types, other types.
Speaker 1:But yeah, and so I just started, when it started in my childhood, the abuse and neglect and that's those are traits or things that happen to people to become narcissists or have narcissistic traits. It starts with, as you know, abuse and neglect, and so my abuse and neglect started with people that were supposed to love and protect me, my cousins. They used to always grab me by my mouth and kiss me and flirt with me and touch me. It went from that to watching porn. Then, from watching porn I had this obsession with. First it started with brown-skinned women. Because of my cousins I saw the same brown-skinned women in porn. I became addicted to looking at women for their body lustfully. So the love wasn't, it was gone.
Speaker 2:Was? Did any of your partners back then? Did they kind of pick up on this? Did you hide it? What was that? What was that like?
Speaker 1:Well, the sad part about it, a lot of my male friends were just like me little kids, little boys, mannish little boys, managed right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so they promoted it. It was kind of celebrated.
Speaker 1:It was celebrated, you were awarded. So I got molested by my cousins. Then I got, then my babysitter took my virginity at eight. So you think a little boy go I'm telling she took my virginity. No, I was like oh, my babysitter had sex with me last night, so I was eight and she was like 14.
Speaker 2:So it was like glorifying the trauma.
Speaker 1:And then we glorified that trauma, right, right. And then we glorified the hustlers and the drug dealers and the athletes. We didn't glorify men that went to church. We didn't glorify men that had one woman. We didn't glorify men that was like playing chess or went to school. We made fun of the people that fell in love with girls.
Speaker 2:We sure did right. Yeah, one woman. Like when Dave Hollister came out with that song, I want to be a one woman man. That was not the thing back then, that's you could call a simp back then.
Speaker 1:Right, you could call a fool, a sucker, weak, and I was like that was destroyed.
Speaker 2:So that childhood trauma turned into wounds as an adult, With the women that you were choosing. Were there certain things about these women where y'all would attract you? Either they would be attractive to you or they would be attracted to you. What were some of those things that you would notice in women?
Speaker 1:When they were attracted to me it was before I even opened my mouth. So I'm like, oh, she's physical, right, so I don't have to say much, I don't have to do much. I'm not going to say much, I'm not going to do much. If I said anything, it was always something. The conversation was sexual. So I never was attracted to spiritual women. I was scared of them because I'm like if I hurt them, god going to hurt me. So I was like she go to church. I don't want nothing to do with that. But I wanted the women that would drink smoke and if we have sex, it in a dumpster. I was cool with it. So they kind of matched my energy on a low level anything so kind of like wow, risk-taking, you're like very risk-taking, narcissistic people.
Speaker 1:Narcissists are risk-takers, very risky, will put your life at risk, will put your health at risk. Every woman I dated I put their health at risk all the time. They didn't know they didn't know they had no't know they had no clue. I knew.
Speaker 2:So you know we've been knowing each other over the years. I work with women and men on building their confidence, the women that you were dating, meeting and even in long-term relationships with what was their confidence like?
Speaker 1:Relationship-wise confidence in me? They didn't have any, Because it didn't take them long to figure out that I wasn't about anything. I didn't have any morals, no principles. I had by far the lowest standards in a relationship a man could have, Because I was attracted to all kind of women.
Speaker 2:What about the confidence in themselves, though?
Speaker 1:They were very confident. But dealing with a man like me, with a personality disorder, they don't think that they're pretty or beautiful after a certain period of time and they don't think they can measure up because I'm always I was always looking around, I was all. I had a wandering eye and I was always cheating. So she can't feel confident. If I'm looking at somebody and we're at the movie theater, we're at a restaurant, it didn't matter where we were. I was very flirtatious, I just like. It was like something I I'm not going to say I couldn't stop. I chose not to stop it because if I got her and she's not going to leave me I can get her to look at me. I could possibly possibly have her too.
Speaker 1:I dated four or five women at a time because I lied to all of them and they were all yeah, they were all either had low self-esteem or they were women that I felt like that I could control and dominate. That wouldn't challenge me. So the women that challenged me I'm going to get upset because you're challenging me, but I'm also going to get upset because you're right about challenging me. But I didn't want to tell her that she was right about challenging me, because I like being wrong. So I get angry, fired up and then they go. Okay, leah, I was never violent towards women, but I was verbally abusive.
Speaker 2:So would you almost in a sense sound like you were breaking? If they did have confidence you were breaking it.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah. Then breaking their confidence and building mine, because I broke their confidence and that was my comfort zone, so I couldn't. When a woman challenged me about being committed, being faithful, going to church, having a family cooking meals, praying together, I, jason, I hated all that. I absolutely, and I was like what is wrong? I knew something was wrong me as a kid. One of my psychiatrists told me I should have been in therapy as a six-year-old little boy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you were those things that are like. They keep you on the right track, like supposed to? I'm supposed to like that praying cooking, just being a you, you know an individual. You're like no, that's too chill for me.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So even now, I have to practice doing right. I have to practice, I think about it. What am I going to say? Even with my kids, I can feel myself like getting angry, wanting to say something nasty, and I go. The devil is working in me now Because he ain't going away. The devil is working in me now because he ain't going away Even at now.
Speaker 2:how old are you now?
Speaker 1:59. I'll be 60 this year.
Speaker 2:I knew I'm like because you don't look it. But I'm like man. I know, leon, I'm almost 60. Even at your age now, it's still something where you have to consciously say look.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, people cannot tell me, man, my girlfriend healed, not if they have NPD. Jason, I went through therapy. I was in therapy for a year, probably longer. I got out of therapy in 2016. I didn't start implementing anything. I'm sorry. I got out of therapy in 2015. I didn't start implementing anything. I learned in therapy until six years later, when my ex-girlfriend challenged me to do videos about my disorder. So I was in therapy with psychotherapists, psychologists, psychologists, social workers. Like ain't nothing wrong with me and I go into therapy. I see all the little degrees on the wall and I was like getting mad, like oh, so y'all are better than me, y'all gonna tell me about me. So two times I walked out of therapy.
Speaker 2:So I'm gonna pause you for a second, because I've worked with couples and sometimes it's the man who's doing have NPD woman says hey, we got some relationship issues and I'm like okay, here we go, and a couple times the man they stormed the heck up out of there because so I'm glad you said that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my ex-wife and I we talked about this just last year I've been divorced for this year to be 17 years divorced, I got divorced in 2007. So, going on 18 years, just last year she said, leon, do you remember going through marriage counseling? And I said kind of sort of right. So if you go to marriage counseling, that's a, it's a big deal and you're sitting there with your wife or husband and the counselor for hours every week. Okay, so this is something that you should not forget. Okay, but I don't remember anything about therapy, except for her saying my job is going to pay for it. We have therapy tomorrow and this is the address. So we get in the car. I remember getting in the car and I remember going there and when I started thinking about it, jason, the only thing I remember is the couch and I was the only one there.
Speaker 2:So you were physically there, but mentally you were gone.
Speaker 1:And so I was gone, and so that means that my psychologist told me that therapy wasn't marriage. Counseling wasn't a part of my agenda. I volunteered to go with my ex-wife when I got there. I was checked out before I got there. So my ex-wife told me she said Leon, I told him, I told the counselor to call me Double O Double O is my nickname and she said when he didn't call me Double O, I went off. I don't even remember that, and so in my videos that I talk now I say I've never had a black counselor and my ex-wife said he was a black male. I don't remember him at all because I checked out before I checked into counseling and I don't remember none of that.
Speaker 2:One thing I do can say, like working with men and couples, relationships with the men, that's diagnosed with NPD, again, well-dressed, well-groomed, that's it. Sometimes the cologne is too loud, to be honest with you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know, but they come in there for the appeal to look, because when I went into therapy with females, there was one that I was attracted to. It was a white lady with big breasts. The other white women I wasn't attracted to, so it wasn't her that I was attracted to, I was attracted to her body. Going back to the porn that I was watching, I saw big breasts.
Speaker 2:So let's fast forward. You've been to therapy 2021, you started making videos. You started implementing the things you learned in therapy. You write the book the Seven Loveless Traits. Can you break that down and talk about that a little bit more?
Speaker 1:So the Seven Loveless Traits. I know that it was all this is God, because I never heard of that, didn't want to write any books after I wrote my first memoir, broken. But the seven loveless traits. We talk about love languages okay, it's a very popular book, love languages. So physical touch, communication, gifts, gift giving, receiving, whatever.
Speaker 1:And so I say, what would the opposite of that look like? Right, if it's physical touch, would it be in a relationship where you're touchless? Ok, ok, our skin is the largest organ, and if a woman's not touched months, weeks, years, she's going to feel neglected. Right, she's going to lose confidence. Ok, and so I starved women. By the first 45 days I'm going to touch the hell out of her all over because I want her to think about me and feel me when I'm not around her. But after that there was no more touching. Leon used to be, we used to cuddle, we sold hands. I hated that stuff, but I did it. Love by me okay, but the loveless traits. A loveless trait is not touching, untouched so removing that touch, removing it.
Speaker 2:Now they're used to being cuddling and being affectionate, PDA and all that stops.
Speaker 1:It stops because that's a loveless trait, communication a love language. Loveless trait communication is not communicating. Bad communication, name calling putting down gaslighting, right Another love language. Let's say uh, gift giving, gift receiving, whatever, right don't in the beginning, love bombing. You're gonna buy tiffany bracelets, the perfume, right, nice shoes, whatever you see. You check her out every woman I've been when I checked her out, see what she liked, what she had, what's in the closet, and I'm going to do something like that, something different though. But then you stop giving gifts, you stop complimenting, right.
Speaker 2:So then again their confidence goes down because they're like am I not pretty anymore? There you go. I need to get some work done, like all these things.
Speaker 1:All of that. And then I dated this woman, very pretty, very pretty. I've been knowing her since I was 15 years old. She was beautiful, 14, 13, 14. Anyway, we didn't mess around until years later and she'd been in a very abusive relationship and she used to wear a foundation.
Speaker 1:And I said why you got on a foundation? You're pretty, pretty skin and everything. She said because her husband at the time, her ex-husband told her that she was ugly, or made her feel ugly and she would believe. I said, how do you believe that? And I'm right here telling you pretty. But she couldn't trust me. That wasn't nothing, right. So he made her feel ugly, so she painted it over her. She painted her face over. I mean, the foundation was like beige and her neck was like brown. Right, I'm like, do you, do you see? Do you see what I see? But women can be so hurt and so beat down mentally that it's not even physical, it's mental, that they don't see what I see in the mirror. So she would always wear this foundation. Her face was one color, her neck was one color. She couldn't stop doing it.
Speaker 2:Oh man, it's kind of like the black and white video from Michael Jackson.
Speaker 1:Exactly Right, right, right.
Speaker 2:But no, all jokes aside, it was like they're doing a lot of things to compensate for what they think they don't have. But in actuality, these women, they were attractive but they didn't feel like it anymore and they were still attractive.
Speaker 1:But then the worst part about it, jason, is that even though years after they get divorced or they're not with that guy that made them feel ugly, it's still a struggle for them to think that they're pretty again. And then when a guy says you're pretty, they don't trust it because the beat down about them being so ugly or not being complimented enough they start to believe it. So they paint themselves into a corner and when she would put that foundation on, she was a totally different person, and when she take it off, she was a totally different person. On, she was a totally different person, and when she'd take it off, she was a totally different person.
Speaker 2:Had you ever doubled back? Or women, have they ever doubled back? Where y'all are talking to each other, things are going well, but then, all of a sudden, you love mama, so it's not going well, but then do y'all ever get back together and it's like what happens.
Speaker 1:It was just people women that were just like me probably have a few narcissistic traits, but the ones that I double back that that were like me, I liked them but I didn't love them because they were just like me. So I know I ain't gonna love her because all she's gonna do is try to hurt me.
Speaker 2:So I got so used to not loving is it almost like when you see them and they say like, hey, let let's work this out again. They don't work for them. No, I remember, because you said it before, like never take what did you say? Never go back, something like that.
Speaker 1:Better not, because if okay, let's say she's not like me, right, but she likes me Right. But she don't have the personality disorder that I have. I'm in control of her emotions, because women will not disrespect a man that they're physically attracted to. They won't, because they don't want to lose that chemistry. They don't want to lose that feeling that I gave her. Oh, we have chemistry. I've never felt like that before. Nobody's never talked to me like that before. Nobody's ever kissed me or tested me like that before.
Speaker 1:So if she's physically attracted to a guy's body his penis, his hands, his teeth, his beard, whatever his body, his penis, his hands, his teeth, his beard, whatever his looks She'll take that over a guy that's not as good looking but that won't cheat on her. She'll take me, my type, all day long. And so what happens is I know she's going to be there. I can leave in a month and come back. She ain't going anywhere Because of that chemistry we have.
Speaker 1:That's what she chooses to like. It makes her feel good, even though I'm dysfunctional, I'm narcissistic as hell, I'm hateful before therapy. I'm hateful and mean and grumpy and arrogant and I'm abusive. She'll take that. But this guy next door that cuts her grass, cleans her dumpsters, leaves her little notes on the front door, won't cheat, sees she needs a ride to work. She don't want him. So the women that come back, they know what it is, they're searching for that. Oh no, leon, you're a butthole but you know you're kind of risky, you're kind of adventurous. But I like you Because I knew how to get to something inside of this soul or spirit which wasn't right. But they had addictions too and we shared that.
Speaker 2:Somebody's going to. It's almost like that trauma bonding thing.
Speaker 1:Exactly, somebody's gonna, it's almost like that, that trauma bonding, then exactly exactly so. If a woman can't trauma bond with a man she really does, she's not gonna like him. And I'm not being disrespectful, but a lot of times we have toxic, not tonic, in relationships and we we like the toxic because it gets you know how people like wake up, break up to make up yeah, they break up that makeup sex, yep.
Speaker 2:So let me ask you this so there's going to be some women listening and they're like, okay, I'm trying to get out of this mindset, I'm trying to heal, I don't want to make the same mistakes, because they keep going back to their ex. The ex is doing them dirty, they're cheating, they're lying, they're putting them down, but they keep going back. If you could give them probably let's say three things they should do, what would you say those three things to be able to work on themselves.
Speaker 1:First and foremost, don't do it for yourself, because you can do it for yourself and you get your feelings served. You go in the corner, you cry in the bathroom, whatever, and you get over it. Tell your daughter, your son, your grandmother that's on a dying bed, your uncle that you love, your grandfather that's close to you, that I'm not going to be with Leon anymore. If you could tell that person that you truly love, that you're not going to be with them. But if you let them down, it's going to hurt Because you let somebody down that you love and they say well, mom, you said you weren't going to be with Leon, no more.
Speaker 1:And I saw you calling him. Then your daughter runs off crying. Now Leon calling them. Then your daughter runs off crying. Now Leon is hurting not only you but your daughter, disrupting your household. So I would say don't do it for yourself, do it for somebody that you love. First, number one is realizing. I saw a quote that said people die at 25, but they're not buried until 75. Don't die early and then just live your life until you get buried.
Speaker 2:Y'all gonna have to rewind on that because he touched on it. What's number three?
Speaker 1:Number three is realizing that you are not nowhere near tapping into your potential by being with this person. That's keeping you from your potential. Same thing with dying and not being buried until 75. Your life stops at that point. You chose to bring somebody into your life. That's very, very dysfunctional.
Speaker 2:So, essentially, they could be more and do more if they work on themselves. And these are some really tangible things to do.
Speaker 1:They can People go. The problem is people say I'm enrolled in therapy and it's going, it's working pretty good. They go to therapy for an hour, Then they go home to be with a person for 19 hours. That hasn't been therapy.
Speaker 2:So it's kind of productive All right, you're to be with a person for 19 hours that hasn't been therapy, so it's kind of productive. All right, man, you're killing me right now. Where can people because they're going to need to know where can they get your book, where can they follow you, and all of that.
Speaker 1:All my books are on Amazon. My first book is called Broken. It's a memoir about my childhood. Second book was called Love Ship. Third book is called Seven Loveless Traits and I did a bit biography too. But that's not on any Amazon or Barnes Noble. But those books are on Barnes Noble. I have a YouTube channel, instagram, facebook and TikTok under Leon R Walker Jr.
Speaker 2:Awesome. I'm going to put all that in the show notes too. Thank you, man, this has been great.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no problem. Thanks for having me, my brother.
Speaker 2:Yes, sir. Thanks for tuning in to the peace and prosperity podcast. If today's episode brought you clarity, encouragement or even a moment of calm, share it with someone who needs to hear it too. Your support helps us keep these conversations going. And remember you don't have to do it all alone. If you're navigating stress, burnout or just need a space to reset, I'm here to support you. Connect with me at jasonlphillipscom or send me a message on social media. Until next time, protect your peace, pursue your purpose and keep showing up for you. Be blessed.