Circus Whispers | Season 4 Episode 2 | Audience | Cecilia & Michi

In this episode, you find out why there are no snacks to be found in the dressing room of Michael Zandl's crew. And you'll hear why you might be hanging in Cecilia Rosso's straps. In this first open-hearted conversation, host Maaike Muis takes us through trends and new waves in circus around the topic of audiences. And what connects these two very different makers is that their research not only goes beyond their main discipline, but also that they want to evoke a physical reaction from the audience.

In deze aflevering kom je erachter waarom er geen snacks te vinden zijn in de kleedkamer van Michael Zandl's crew. En je hoort waarom jij misschien ook in de straps van Cecilia Rosso kunt hangen. In dit eerste openhartige gesprek neemt host Maaike Muis ons mee door trends en nieuwe ontwikkelingen in het circus rondom het thema ‘publiek’. En wat deze twee zeer verschillende makers met elkaar verbindt, is dat hun onderzoek niet alleen verder gaat dan hun hoofddiscipline, maar ook dat ze een fysieke reactie willen oproepen bij het publiek. 

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Makers - Cecilia Rosso & Michael Zandl
Hosting & editing - Maaike Muis
Production - TENT house for contemporary circus
Music - Blue Dot Sessions
Made possible by - Dutch Performing Arts Fund & Amsterdam Arts Fund

Transcript

00:00:01
Michi: If we have a show where performers are eating a lot, you cannot perform several shows a day. Or it's also you have to be physically also very fit in in different ways than you normally are in in in circus.

00:00:15
Cecilia: I felt a bit, uh, a struggle in obliging audience to sit for a certain determinate time in a space. So I was like, okay, how can I involve differently the audience instead of just having them sitting and watching.

00:00:32
Maaike : Welcome to Circus Whispers, a podcast by TENT House for Contemporary Circus. My name is Maaike Muis. This season will be a bit different. In the first three episodes of the season, I combine each time two makers for a week because they are in some ways connected to one another by the choice of their research. The first episode, a main theme, is how to work as a director for the first time and how to find new ways of connecting with the audience. And after the three episodes now of these Makers of a week, we'll be back after the summer with new episodes of Circus Whispers about other makers at TENT. For now, I'll hope you'll enjoy this openhearted conversation I had with Cecilia Rosso and Michael Zandl. I talked with them in the green room of Theatre Rotterdam during Circusstad Festival 2024. And to start off, I always like to ask the makers how they ended up in the circus.

00:01:36
Cecilia: How I ended up in the circus? Good question was so like, um, I think I mean, I it was a bit of a random situation in the sense of like, I always wanted to use my body in life or like to keep my body training and moving and experiencing. Uh, so somehow I ended up to do a animatorial school that then brought me in the path I, I am now and, um, yeah, I mean, it was a bit of a random situation, ending up in the circus. But indeed, I really love the community of the circus. I mean, for me, what I find it really interesting about the circus field is that we are a big family. We know each other, we know the struggle we are doing together, and we are all in the same pot in a way. And I really like how there's this willing of supporting each other and opening up conversations. So for me, this is definitely the the the reason why I, I continued in circus and I developed in cirucs and yeah. And I'm keeping this in my life. I mean, I love to be part of a community and I love to be there to support people. So, um, this is, for me, the biggest element that I really enjoy about circus. 

00:02:51
Michi: For me, um, yeah, also really random somehow. I mean, I, I, I started juggling as a kid, and then when I was a teenager, I really started to juggle more and more. And then it became, it became a bit, uh, addicted to it in a way. Um, and then I started with my brother together to go to different, um, festivals for juggling. And then I saw the first time, um, performances or with contemporary circus performances also. And yeah, this really triggered me I, I really I've and then I became really obsessed with juggling and and I mean, I was then uh, I was studying in Vienna, agriculture, um, specializing in environmental management. And this was I really liked these studies. But also during the studies, we were constantly learning about how the world is going to end soon. No, really, it was a very it was, for me, somehow depressing you know what is going on in the world somehow. And then and then I was asking myself if this is what I, what I want to do. No, to, to to work in this field. And, um, and then I came to Codarts to the circus school, and suddenly all I had to think about is how how stable I can keep my five balls in the air. So it was a big change. And. And also what you said Cecilia that, um, for me, what keeps me now in the circus is the family, I think. Or this the community. Um, because it's really, it's. I find it so beautiful, the circus community, especially now we’re at Circusstad Festival, you you go outside, you meet people all the time, you talk with everybody, and everybody is really supportive. And, and everybody wants to know what you're doing. And, and, and I find it so it's not a competition between each other. I mean also can be sometimes of course, but somehow I find it so beautiful and so sharing and so open that this is the thing that keeps me in the circus. Definitely at the moment.

00:04:45
Maaike : Cecilia and Michi will research something completely different during their research week, but what binds them is that both their research goes beyond their main discipline. For Cecilia, it's working with a crane and an installation for her straps and collaborating with, for example, a dancer. And for Michi, it's the first time he's directing and not being on stage himself. Another thing they have in common is that they want to evoke a physical reaction with the audience and how? Cecilia explains.

00:05:18
Cecilia: So, um, as a Maker for a week, I will focus on a new creation. Uh, the idea is to take the week of, uh, TENT residency as a experimentation. I explored previously with a gantry crane that it's a kind of a small portique. Uh, just to give dimension is a three meter by three meter on wheel. And, uh, we did a small experimentation with Cirklabo previously, and I would like to use the week of experimentation, with TENT to involve audience member. So the idea is to see what audience member can do with the crane. We previously experimented what we can do with the crane or what the crane allows, and now we want to give to the audience the space to try out and see.

00:06:00
Maaike : So really, to try out and be in a crane or be suspended in one way or another themselves? To be sort of a circus acrobat for one show?

00:06:13
Cecilia: Ideally, yes, in the sense of like it's still a bit of an open, uh, research. Um, so the crane has wheel, so it's really easy to move. So ideally we will start in like manipulating the object, the crane in the case. And then yes, ideally would be nice to see if there are people comfortable enough to hang. Ideally there would be the straps hanging. So eventually also to use the straps as a sitting place a bit as a swing for example. So just to to see how they are comfortable and how we can involve as much as possible, the audience into a show in a safety way.

00:06:51
Maaike : And where did the idea came from to… Or why did you want to include the audience in such an active way?

00:06:59
Cecilia: Since I graduated in ‘21, I felt a bit a struggle in obliging audience to sit for a certain determinate time in a space. So I was like, okay, how can I involve differently the audience instead of just having them sitting and watching? So I kind of took a process into the installation world of visual art, where I'm also creating and developing material and projects with the idea of like giving space to them. So how I can, in the case of the installation, how I can create an installation where the audience is performing in a way, um… And from there on I was like, okay, how can I then go back in a setting? So go back in a fixed amount of time performance, but where the audience has a power, so where the audience has like the possibility to interact fully with the performer or the object or the space. Ideally I see the performance in the future in public spaces. So there is also this idea of hacking a bit the public space and uh give back to the audience the public space in a way like we…

00:08:05
Maaike : But but also hacking the audience in a sense, like people that don't necessarily come for a performance are invited into the the performance.

00:08:13
Cecilia: Yeah, definitely. I mean, the idea, it's really like to kind of like reconnect with the space around together as a community. So ideally there was also this big research of like, how can I create something where there's a community involvement. Uh, not just this division or between artist and audience, but we are human, so we can collaborate together to create something.

00:08:40
Maaike : And practically, what does this mean for your maker for a week? Because apart from your crane, the audience is crucial in terms of your research. How will you go about that?

00:08:52
Cecilia: That's a really nice question. That's a bit where it comes from the week, I mean, the idea practically is to invite different audience member. Uh, we are in connection with TENT in trying to invite, uh, different age, different bodies, different abilities. Uh, and then ideally we would like them to like we will ask them to because I'm working with other two uh, people performer that will be Jacob Lohman and Rafael Albanese. And uh, with them we will kind of structure the residency in a way that we can see what are their capability with the crane. Uh, so, yeah, I mean, it's still a research. I don't really have a full answer in like how I will fully involve the audience in the performance. So I want to use this week, really to discover how I can involve the audience and how can we together, uh, create something. And luckily, after the residency, I have a bit more of material to put up and start to write a bit down the performance itself.

00:09:49
Maaike : Each research week is an adventure and so it is for Michi. His new project is called ‘Food” with a D. So, what we eat and if you know the work of Michi a bit, with  for example, ‘Sawdust Symphony’ and ‘Janus’, you know that nothing is ever what it seems. The object manipulator in him always shows us the most day to day objects in a completely different light. And this time he has a crew of four artists to work with him.

00:10:18
Michi: Yeah in this show, we focus our research on consumption, human consumption and what effects this consumption has. And we want to take food there as a metaphor for resources that we consume.

00:10:29
Maaike : And you say we, who is we?

00:10:32
Michi: I will work together with a crew of four artists, which are Karin and Hedvig, Fidel and Jacob. All, uh, students or former students of Codarts. And it will be for me the first time that I will not be on stage myself, but that I will be directing a piece. So a bit of an adventure for me also.

00:10:49
Maaike : And can you tell me where this idea was born? Around taking food as the the central point for the research.

00:10:58
Michi: Um, I think for me, this started when I watched a movie once, ‘Le Grand Boeuf’. I hope I pronounce it correctly. Um, and this was, uh, was a movie that I found it extremely interesting that just by watching a movie I had a physical experience of. Because people are eating constantly in this. Um, and I felt really full, like I really had a physical experience just by watching something. And this was, for me, a thing that I found very, um, yeah, interesting to then I thought it would be really nice to put something on stage where we give the audience really a physical experience just by showing them something. And I think because everybody has such a strong relationship to food in one way or the other, this is a very good chance to use this or very interesting to use that to create the show around it.

00:11:48
Maaike : But then in ‘Le Grand Boeuf’, there's people are eating themselves to death, right? If I remember correctly.

00:11:55
Michi: Exactly. This is not now our goal. Exactly. That was pushed to um, yeah, very far. No, in, in that sense. And, and we find it for the show very interesting to see that a little bit that's a metaphor also for what is happening in the world at the moment with the consumption of resources in general, that we just consume everything there is. And this is what we want to try in the show as well. And around food, there's more things than just eating. For example, at the moment we are playing a lot with sound. Um, this will be probably a very big research in this project and to see how how we can play like at the moment we work a lot with digestive sounds and so we wanted the audience feels a bit digested after the show also, and it's funny or interesting for me that people that we show stuff that we work on, um, everybody has a different opinion on it. Um, and this I find really interesting. Also a big challenge, I think, um, because there's also a lot of topics around food that, um, um, yeah, for some people there is not so easy for this topic of, of eating and food, of course. And, uh, yeah, there we have to be quite sensitive, I think.

00:13:05
Maaike : Your background is as a object manipulator. 

00:13:09
Michi: Mainly a juggler 

00:13:11
Maaike: Now you're working with acrobats. Where where will you start by researching?

00:13:18
Michi: Yeah, that's for me the adventure, I think. As I come from from juggling or object manipulation, I normally start creations always from an object. For example, with ‘Janos’ started with the heads and in ‘Sawdust Symphony’ we started with, uh, the tools. Um, and here now it's a little different, I think. But also for me, the whole process is a collective process. So now in the beginning, it's of course necessary to to talk a lot, to find a common ground together, to see where the interests of the artists. And then for me, of course, it's not. It's something new. I never worked with partner acrobatics or with, um, other disciplines than object manipulation. The whole creation will be, of course, also very much based on materials and scenery as we work with food, and we want to work also with walls and, and, and different objects, like we create a little room. Um, so in that sense, I think many of the research that we do is very close to object manipulation also.

00:14:18
Maaike : But if you work with food, there's only like if you're rehearsing a new trick, you can try out a trick 30, 50 times. If you work with food, that's quite a different thing. You can't just eat an apple 50 times over, right?

00:14:36
Michi: Um, yes, Fidel can actually. I was really surprised how much people can eat. No really! Um, of course we, um, I mean, uh, this this is also very interesting research, in a way. Know that because this is not only for rehearsals now interesting thing, but also, um, for performing, for touring. We if, if we have a show where performers are eating a lot, you cannot perform several shows a day or it's also you have to be physically also very fit in in different ways than you normally are in, in, in circus and also um, but this is something.

00:15:12
Maaike : So no snacks in the dressing room.

00:15:14
Michi: Yeah. Not for everybody at least I think. Yeah. It's very. Interesting.

00:15:19
Maaike : And in preparing this, um, this research, has it changed your relationship to food and consumption in your daily life already?

00:15:29
Michi: I have to say what I found really interesting that at the moment we are researching a lot in creating objects that that are not considered edible and still like, for example, this microphone that's in front of me know that we make something that you can object like this, that you can then eat. And in that sense, I'm constantly now when I, when I'm home, I constantly see what the interesting objects to eat actually. So in that sense, it.

00:15:54
Maaike : Uh, can you give an example?

00:15:57
Michi: Um, yeah. Especially what, of course, everything that's in the kitchen is at the moment for me a bit a thing. Cutlery plates, you know, also where the food is on. That you just continue and, um, yeah. When there's no more food, what would you continue eating? Also no....

00:16:12
Maaike : With the maker for a week program, TENT is always looking for makers that are pushing the boundaries of circus to sometimes stretch it to the point where one can ask oneself, is it still circus? But then again, how important is that label and what role does their main discipline straps and object manipulation mean in the research of Michi and Cecilia?

00:16:36
Michi: I think how to label something plays a very crucial role in how people what what expectations people have when they go to a piece. And um, I do I do really enjoy circus and circus disciplines and, and kind of for me, it's crucial for a circus. If I call something circus for me, I would really like to put in my work also circus technique, although I don't find it necessary to to, um, yeah, to give it a lot of weight or not. I have the feeling with object manipulation compared to other disciplines is often much easier because you can just work with objects, and objects have a meaning themselves also. If you’re, for example, um, an acro dancer, then I mean, you have the physicality, but I find for me already it's a bit limited language, you know, and then and then when you take even other disciplines, like for example, straps. Um, I find it very challenging to to really tell a clear story with using the because you are so limited with the vocabulary you have on strips compared to other disciplines. So I find that a very extreme challenge also in a way, and I think I make it maybe a bit easy for myself to work with objects also in that sense.

00:17:43
Maaike : How do you look at that, uh, Cecilia?

00:17:46
Cecilia: I mean, I do agree in a way like, um… In a sense, I feel like this detachment from my side to circus or like this need of, like watching around and going more to the visual art for me was really the also the struggle of like, feeling, why am I doing a trick on stage? Why I do have to put a certain movement on stage. I do fully believe that it's a limit. Uh, I indeed still really, I mean, that's a bit the reason why I'm bringing a breakdancer in, in the in the situation. I'm questioning a bit how much a vision of a dancer, so a really different vision in how to use a body on stage, can bring new way of seeing how we can use circus apparatus. Uh, indeed, I do really also enjoy working with objects, so that's a bit the reason why I'm bringing the crane in all this context of like, okay, how can I give a different meaning to the straps in connection to a crane? Because we know a crane is used to lift. So how much this will change the relationship to the circus apparatus in the context.

00:18:53
Maaike : And it's also a way of bringing, this is something I saw with other makers for a week, is bringing the technique visible on stage so that you don't hide it in the wings or in the ceiling, that you really what you see is what you get and it's not hidden. The way things work, sort of, because with you Michi, lots of things have been hidden. You know, it's.

00:19:19
Michi: That's actually a hard part for me often. That so many things like especially they work with illusions. Um, there often you hide things. But as I'm building everything myself, I'm also, in a way, a little proud of what I built there, but I cannot share it with anybody. So it's a bit sad also, in a way.

00:19:36
Maaike : Yeah. You can, yeah, you maybe not have the illusions, but you can be. You can show off the things you've built and the and show what you've built.

00:19:47
Cecilia: Yeah. No, I definitely like to show what I build on stage. I mean, for me, having technique shown, it's also really important thing, I think, like I'm speaking more from the technical side of myself. I do believe technicians and people that work with technical elements are really important. Um, yeah, people in in our field and they do a crazy, amazing job to make a lot of things possible. I mean, and I think it's really interesting for audience to also be aware of, like how much other people are working in the field and how much other things reason why my technician is always on stage and generally is performing with me.

00:20:26
Maaike : Talking about illusions and making things disappear, and now you take another step because you yourself will be off stage, right? So that's the biggest illusion to make yourself disappear. And just your your hand is visible in the way you direct. How do you like directing so far and not being on stage yourself?

00:20:49
Michi: I mean, I don't have a lot of experience with it, like we did some small projects also with a very similar cast now that we have, um, but now this is the first real project for me where I'm, I'm directing. And so for me, it's really an adventure and something where I, where I want to learn a lot. Uh, I think it's very different also to be on stage because some are also with the team. I have the feeling it's very important to, to to work with the team to keep a team together. Um, and also to, yeah, it's for me a bit. I like to call it energy management, you know, to see, to use it when you have a high energy in the group and push it then and to to to see also when the energy is low, that you get it up again.

00:21:31
Maaike : Talking about energy, back to the audience. How do they look at the energy management and expectations for the different audience members?

00:21:40
Cecilia: For sure, children will experience my installation or the crane in a different way than an old person, or than a that a middle aged person, like everyone has a bit their story and their experiences and different body and corporeality. So I just feel like I want to expose my work to a wider audience, to an audience that maybe it's not in contact with art, to an audience that it's willing to take the time to experience. And it's really important to be aware of how different audiences can react. Reason why? In my way of working, I'm trying to involve audience to any stage of the creation. I mean, now, as I said, I'm using this residency with TENT directly with audiences. I mean, I want them to be there. I want them to explore and to share with me how they are their experiences, because I believe art is for everyone.

00:22:32
Maaike : And what about you Michi?

00:22:33
Michi: For me, in my creation process, the audience plays a very big role because I think I make a show for an audience. I don't make it only for myself. Like the main thing is I want to share this with people. So for me, I also include a lot of audience like I do a lot of tryouts also during the process, just to see what works, um, for an audience and what not. And for me it is. I want to try with this show now, with food to reach a very wide audience. By by on the one side, using the easy to understand humor, our circus technique, special effects. But also put some bit more complex metaphors and symbolism in to give the people also the chance to to read a little bit deeper layers in the whole thing. What I think works good. You know, if people want to just enjoy a show, they can just enjoy a show. But if people want to read something out of it, they also can. And and this is a bit my approach with the audience.

00:23:25
Maaike : I can't wait to sit in the studio and be present at their presentations at the end of their Maker for a week week. This was the first episode of the fourth season of Circus Whispers. Interview, production and editing by me, Maaike Muis, Music by Bluedot sessions. Big thanks to Michi Zandl, Cecilia Rosso, Ruth Verraes, Cahit Metin and the team of TENT. The Makers of a week in 2024 are Jakob Jacobsson, Berkey, Michael Zandl, Cecilia Rosso, IF Circus and Cia Insurgentes. This production was made possible thanks to the support of TENT by Performing Art Funds Netherlands and Amsterdams Fonds voor de Kunst. More info via TENT.eu.