Charles Drimal (00:03):

They're enlivening. You know, there's always life that we see along these rivers. Sometimes it's small mammals, sometimes it's large mammals. Um, often there's avian life and fish life that we see. And I think that that experience of being a part of the moving water, it changes our, our chemistry in a way it changes like the energy of, of our bodies. Um, and so when we get out, we feel like we're new people,

Kristin Kuhn (Host) (00:36):

Hi there. And thanks for tuning in for our very first episode of the voices of Greater Yellowstone podcast, it's been a labor of love, and we're so excited to begin sharing these stories with you. I am a Kristin Kuhn and your host and communications coordinator at the Greater Yellowstone Coalition, a conservation nonprofit dedicated to protecting the lands of waters and wildlife of the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem. You're probably new because this is our very first episode. So welcome the Voices of Greater Yellowstone podcast. We'll bring you stories from the people who love and live in the wild heart of North America. Our guests include conservationists, writers, artists, scientists, ranchers, and anyone else with a story to share from the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem. First let's chat about what exactly the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem is. The Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem also known as the GYE is one of the last, nearly intact temperate ecosystems on earth, meaning it has most of its original wildlife and plant species and contains mostly undisturbed habitat.

Kristin Kuhn (Host) (01:39):

It sits on the borders between Montana, Wyoming, and Idaho with Yellowstone and Grand Teton national parks at its core. It's about 20 million acres in size or roughly the acreage of South Carolina minus the sandy beaches and the humidity. The GYE contains all the wildlife you could ever dream of like grizzly bears, elk, moose, bison, black bears, wolverines, pronghorn, wolves, marmots, golden eagles, Yellowstone, cutthroat trout: I mean, I could really just have a whole podcast where all we do is list off species of the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem, because it's a lot, if you've been here, you know exactly how amazingly beautiful and special it is today for our first episode, I'm sitting down with my colleagues, Charles Drimal and Ryan Cruz here at the Greater Yellowstone Coalition, Charles, as GYC's waters conservation coordinator, and Ryan is the Montana conservation associate. They work together closely on our Montana river conservation work, which is what we'll be chatting about today.

Kristin Kuhn (Host) (02:38):

Montana's section of the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem is home to some pretty iconic rivers, such as the Yellowstone, Madison, and Gallatin Rivers. They are home to aquatic species, provide drinking and irrigation, water support hundreds, if not thousands of jobs in Montana and offer world-class recreational opportunities. So they sound pretty important. How do we ensure they are protected for generations to come? Luckily that's where Charles and Ryan come in. They've been collaborating on a piece of legislation called the Montana Headwaters Legacy Act, a made-in-Montana bill that protects over 380 river miles from development and degradation. One quick note, since recording this podcast, we've had some campaign updates on the Montana Headwaters Legacy Act. So I'll address those updates after the conversation with Charles and Ryan. All right, let's get into it, Charles, let's start with you. What does being GYC's waters conservation coordinator entail?

Charles Drimal (03:36):

Well, it entails a lot of planning and implementing strategy and tactics to support river conservation all across the ecosystem. Right now we're focused on two very specific campaigns. One is a Wild and Scenic Rivers legislation in Montana. And we'll talk more about that today. And then the second is building on a, uh, approach to climate refugia and climate adaptation, um, to protect some of the best places that offer that.

Kristin Kuhn (Host) (04:13):

Wonderful. Thanks for that. While we're in this space, what does refugia mean?

Charles Drimal (04:19):

Oh, good question. Yeah, refugia is the plural of refuge. And so, uh, when we talk about climate refugia, we're talking about places that remain the best opportunity for, uh, having cold, clean water and valuable native fish and wildlife habitat for decades into the future as the climate changes.

Kristin Kuhn (Host) (04:43):

Perfect. Thank you for that. All right, Ryan, you're up? How does a Montana conservation associate spend their time?

Ryan Cruz (04:51):

I spend my time in a couple different worlds. I'm a lucky guy here. I get to work in our waters world with Charles on the work we're going to talk about today. I also keep a foot in our lands world. So I get to, um, work with all kinds of really interesting people throughout the ecosystem. I get to talk with them, learn from them. Um, hopefully convince them a few things along the way. And, uh, I get to work to protect some of my all-time favorite places.

Kristin Kuhn (Host) (05:19):

Which is a great segue because ultimately, you know, what we are doing here is protecting resources that all of us have a connection to and love deeply and are really meaningful to the state of Montana and beyond. So, Charles, can you tell us perhaps just about a favorite or even just most memorable moment you've had on a river in Montana?

Charles Drimal (05:40):

Yeah, I would say, uh, for a number of years, we were working to protect the East Rosebud Creek as a Wild and Scenic River. And I think around 2014, I, uh, decided that it would be valuable to get to know that river a lot. And so I set out on a solo three day traverse of the whole East Rosebud watershed from the public lands, boundary up to the headwaters and then across the Beartooth Plateau and down the Stillwater River, the Stillwater River is also a river that's part of our Montana Headwaters Legacy Act. And, um, I completely underestimated the distance that it would take to cover and the amount of time that it would take to traverse this. And beyond that, I also faced a major snow storm that came pretty early on. And, um, uh, so it, it was, it turned into an epic trip.

Charles Drimal (06:43):

Um, and I was actually, uh, late for missing my shuttle out of the Stillwater River and was a missing person for, I think, 24 hours, which with search and rescue, um, waiting to come look for me upon the call. Fortunately, I was totally fine. Um, but during that, uh, traverse, which I think was maybe like 35 or 40 miles, um, you know, I was in the, in the heart of the Absorka Beartooth Wilderness and in, uh, walking along some of the wildest rivers that we have on the Montana side of the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem. And, uh, you know, it's those kinds of experiences that really inspire me to protect wild rivers. Um, it's the remoteness of some of these places, the, the, the soundscapes that are part of a wild landscapes, um, and just the life force that these rivers, uh, provide for wildlife and for native fish. Um, and to be a part of that for a few days, despite the challenging conditions and underestimation of, um, distance in time, uh, that's certainly lives with me as, uh, a memorable experience.

Kristin Kuhn (Host) (08:04):

Thanks for sharing that Ryan, same question. Uh, what's a favorite or memorable moment you've had on a Montana river.

Ryan Cruz (08:12):

One of the things I love most about our rivers here is that they're always changing and each experience on the river is so unique and so special and its way, um, depending on the season, the flows, what you're there to do. And, uh, so I can't, I can't choose a favorite, but I'll just share my most recent experience on a river, which was my define night before last, I took my canoe down to the Madison. Couldn't have been more than 45 minutes from my house. So very different, uh, place than the remote waters that Charles was talking about. And, um, friend of mine went out to go paddle the water we get there. And, um, the weather was looking mighty, spicy, overhead rain was coming. So we hunkered a tree and ate some burritos, well, some weather past expecting to cruise home. Um, but we decided to, after the rain cleared, we decided to run it anyway.

Ryan Cruz (09:05):

We looked like we had a hole above. And, um, so we didn't do a particularly long section. It's one I've done many times. Um, but one of the things that always is impressed upon me when I visit the river is everything lives down by the river. You know, I've, I've heard that up to 70% of animal life lives within that quarter mile border, along the stretches of the river, that riparian forest. And, um, it was as if the whole world was rushing to do all of its all of its things and that little gap in the rain that night. So we saw countless white tail and beaver and raccoons and more birds than we could count Sandhill cranes, overhead. We saw fish jumping out of the water. Um, we saw so much, but we didn't see any other people. And, uh, got back to the car just as the rain started to started to hit again.

Kristin Kuhn (Host) (10:01):

Beautiful, and just two days ago. So pretty cool story. Um, you know, you're talking about the life that surrounds a river corridor, and that brings up an important question, which is just why are healthy rivers so important to this area? Why are healthy rivers so fundamental to the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem?

Charles Drimal (10:23):

I think Ryan, um, touched on a really important component of that. And that's biodiversity depending on where you are in the region, uh, 70 to 75% of, uh, all terrestrial life depend on riparian zones for some part of their life cycle. That's huge. Um, in terms of the cultural component though, uh, you know, we have two really important economies, outdoor recreation, and agriculture that both depend on clean water. We have, uh, just a quality of life that I think everybody recognizes is really unique here in Montana. There's something really important there, that's part of our current culture, um, that connects us to rivers, connects us to landscapes. And it's, uh, it's an experience that we don't want to lose. It's an experience that we don't want to take for granted. Uh, that's made it probably really accessible and easy for people all across the state to get behind this Wild and Scenic Rivers campaign.

Charles Drimal (11:34):

We've seen statistically that two thirds of Montana's recreate on a river annually. That's a lot, it's a, it's a very, uh, visceral connection. Uh, and then of course there's the agricultural component for, you know, water for irrigation. Montana's a huge agricultural state. And I think that there's another component here. That's a little bit hard, harder to put a finger on, but I could say personally, I see the value in protecting rivers for their intrinsic value and, you know, and that, that to me means that I honor rivers as being a life force. And I honor rivers as being this, um, dynamic entity that I have a relationship with, uh, that, uh, I respect and I want to, um, you know, it's basically, I have some role as a human being and as a conservationist to, to see the long-term, um, stewardship of these places. And, um, yeah, I, I think that the more time any of us spend along rivers, the more opportunity that we have for developing an intimacy with, um, and that intimacy, uh, leads some of us to action to say, let's, let's protect these places as they are certainly, so that future generations can enjoy them, but also so that these rivers can just exist as the, the wild processes that they are and the life force that they are.

Kristin Kuhn (Host) (13:21):

Charles, a couple of times now you have mentioned the phrase Wild and Scenic, and, you know, we know that that's a capital W capital S so can you tell us a little bit more about that designation and what that means?

Charles Drimal (13:36):

The Wild and Scenic Rivers Act is a federal protection that was created in 1968, uh, in that same time period of the, uh, Clean Water Act and the Wilderness Act, and a lot of other important legislation that helped protect, uh, landscapes and water and wildlife throughout this country.

Charles Drimal (14:00):

First and foremost protects free flowing segments of rivers, so that, um, dams or other major water resource projects couldn't impact that free flow. And then it also protects the existing water quality of a river, which of course is important for wildlife and for fish and for municipal use and agricultural use. And then third, it protects what are called outstandingly remarkable values. And these can be a whole array of things from recreation, recreation opportunities, scenery as is in the name of the legislation, um, to native fisheries and wildlife, uh, geology, botany there's even remarkable values associated with literature on rivers. So it can be pretty diverse. Um, but the bottom line is that when a river is designated as Wild and Scenic, uh, managing federal land agency needs to maintain, uh, those that existing status of the river.

Kristin Kuhn (Host) (15:04):

Great, thank you for that. Ryan. You're a pretty prolific fishermen. Uh, what do clean rivers mean for our trout here locally?

Ryan Cruz (15:16):

Gosh, how can you separate fish from the river you can't right. So I'm here in Montana. Of course we have our native, our native trout. We have, uh, Westslope cutthroats and Yellowstone cutthroats. Um, we also have rainbow trout and brown trout, which have been introduced. Um, and then of course we have the mountain Whitefish and the grayling, our, our native fish as well. Don't get the attention they deserve and, uh, clean cold water is absolutely essential for these fish. That's what they thrive on. And the relationship between an angler and trout. I think there's a really special piece of, um, at least this country's story of river protection. I think angling is a way in which people can relate to the river. It's a way we can experience its children firsthand up close. Um, if you didn't fish, you probably wouldn't know what a trout looked like. You know, you wouldn't be able to tell a difference from one species to another, and this activity, which at face value it can be seen as extractive, um, has been a really important way for people to relate to the rivers and ultimately to want to protect them if you're an angler, you know, when you're on a healthy piece of river and when you're not, um, and that's, that's the difference between, um, having a fish on your line or not

Kristin Kuhn (Host) (16:44):

Great, thanks for that. So, you know, we've talked a lot about why rivers are important and how we connect to them. Charles, what do you think is the greatest threat to the health of rivers and streams in this area?

Charles Drimal (16:59):

I think one of the big threats is complacency, I think, uh, and, and what I mean by that is making the gross assumption that these rivers will continue to be as they are without some kind of conservation, uh, intervention or conservation approach. You know, there's places like Bozeman, where there's a lot of people moving to this area. Um, and a lot of those people might not understand, uh, the rivers that the, the status, the conservation status of these rivers, there have been, uh, many dams proposed on certain rivers, uh, in decades past, and even recently in places like East Rosebud Creek, which I mentioned earlier, um, the Bear Creek. But I, I really think that right now, um, we can't just assume that by doing nothing, these rivers will stay clean as they are, uh, have provide important fish and wildlife habitat as they do or provide the recreation opportunities that they do.

Charles Drimal (18:10):

Um, so that's something that we have been successful in uniting people about it's, it's more of a, a values-based approach than a threat spaced approach and saying, you know, we, we care about this. You care about this, let's work together to, um, protect these places. There are things like climate change. Um, you know, and, and we're somewhat fortunate, I would say in the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem, because we have, uh, places that will likely offer climate refugia. Again, there's that we're sophisticated term being thrown out there, but that means that in the headwaters of many of these streams, they, um, will likely remain cold and the water will remain clean. Um, but that's something that we also want to make sure, uh, is, is managed for most of our streams that we're working on in the Wild and Scenic Rivers Act. Um, and the Montana Headwaters Legacy Act originate on public lands. And so there's an opportunity to, um, ensure that the public land agencies that are managing those landscapes do so with a conservation approach.

Kristin Kuhn (Host) (19:23):

So, the Montana Headwaters Legacy Act, what is it?

Charles Drimal (19:30):

Well, it is a, it's a piece of legislation that is using the Wild and Scenic Rivers Act to protect a whole suite of new rivers and add them into the National Wild and Scenic Rivers system. Um, it is the result of now over 10 years of outreach on the ground. Um, and that is involved working in watersheds from Red Lodge to the Madison Valley, um, and, uh, connecting with private land owners and business owners, hosting scores of public meetings, hosting events like the Wild Rivers Film Tour, um, meeting with county commissioners meeting with other local government officials, hearing feedback on what rivers they, uh, people think should be protected under this act in their home watershed. And then working with our us delegation or Senator Tester, Senator Daines, and now Representative Rosendale, um, to ask them to introduce this legislation in Congress, because it takes an act of Congress to, uh, create a new Wild and Scenic river, right.

Charles Drimal (20:47):

Uh, when, uh, last year in 2020, uh, we had a major achievement and that was Senator Tester committing to introducing legislation, which he did in November. And that was at the end of the last congressional session and the Montana Headwaters Legacy Act at that time included 17 river segments, um, covering 330 river miles. And there, these are rivers that are well-known rivers on a national and international scale, uh, names like the Yellowstone, the Madison, the Gallatin, which flows near Bozeman, uh, the Smith river, which is the only permitted river in Montana. And then there are also lesser known streams in that like the Taylor Fork, which is an amazing tributary of the Gallatin. Some of the streams that flow off the bear tooth, uh, plateau like, uh, Slough Creek and Hell Roaring Creek and Bear Creek, uh, it's a real diverse collection. And each one of those rivers had been vetted by the public and by public land agencies, um, for their eligibility as Wild and Scenic Rivers and for their social support. And that's how we got to including those rivers in the legislation. Uh, I think that in 2021, because Ryan and I have continued to do a lot of outreach on the ground with stakeholders. There's a really good chance that, uh, when Senator Tester and his team re-introduce that legislation, it could be significantly bigger with a more, a longer stretch of the Madison River, um, and potentially some other streams included in that legislation, which is really exciting.

Kristin Kuhn (Host) (22:30):

So, you mentioned some of the river segments that are included in the Montana Headwaters Legacy Act and, um, why they were chosen. I'd love to dig in a little bit more about the process for that. So Ryan, can you help us understand why certain segments would be chosen over others for inclusion in this legislation?

Ryan Cruz (22:50):

Yeah, it's pretty simple, it goes back to what Charles was saying before about the three things that, um, the Wild and Scenic Rivers Act protects, but, um, a river needs to be free flowing and it needs to have at least one of those outstandingly remarkable values. And that's the piece of Wild and Scenic that I find most interesting for our area, because they can be almost anything, you know, they can be geological uniqueness, historical significance, um, native fisheries, even just recreational, um, fame. So as long as the river is free flowing and has one of those unique values, it could be eligible for, um, Wild and Scenic designation. I'll add that the river segments that, uh, are in the Montana Headwaters Legacy Act mostly flow through already public land. Um, so these are rivers that are already being widely enjoyed by the public and, um, known. And, uh, that's, that's not a requirement certainly, but it's something that a lot of our rivers have in common and as well.

Kristin Kuhn (Host) (23:51):

And what role does the community play in helping select these segments?

Ryan Cruz (23:57):

Well, in the case of the Montana Headwaters Legacy Act, local communities played a key role in, in, um, these segments, as Charles mentioned, we spent gosh, over a decade now working on the ground with local communities, with families, with businesses, asking them, you know, what piece of river should be protected? How should it be protected? Is this the right tool for this community? And, um, you know, their feedback played a direct role in shaping the Montana Headwaters Legacy Act. Um, after a river gets designated Wild and Scenic, let's say the Montana Headwaters Legacy Act passes this year, we all celebrate. Um, the next step in the process is for the managing agency. In this case, it's almost entirely us forest service, a little bit of bureau of land management. They create a comprehensive river management plan. Um, it's a detailed plan custom for that piece of river, uh, that will lay out how to care for that stretch of river in perpetuity. And the public will also get to play a key role in shaping that plan. There'll be opportunities for public comment, public involvement, that sort of thing. Um, so that community members can get their, um, concerns voiced or get their interests. So

Kristin Kuhn (Host) (25:10):

17 segments, 17 river segments in this legislation. What's your favorite?

Charles Drimal (25:18):

Ryan, do you want to start with that one?

Ryan Cruz (25:21):

Oh, I was laughing at you because it's so hard to choose. That is hard. What is my favorite river segment in the Montana Headwaters Legacy Act? You know, I, I have to say I have not experienced a half of them. And one of my goals this summer is to get out and see a lot more of these rivers up close, whether it means paddling them or just walking beside them and getting to know them a bit, the way Charles got to know the East Rosebud, hopefully search and rescue will not get called on me this summer. Uh, but right now I think my favorite, um, at the risk of blowing the spot up is the Taylor Fork, uh, which is a tributary of the Gallatin River. And it really just has captured my heart. Um, there's so much wildlife there. The scenery is absolutely top-notch stunning. And, uh, last spring, Charles and I, and our colleague Emmy had the good fortune of, um, paddling that river at peak flow. Uh, we got to take some pack rafts down that river when it was absolutely rocking with runoff. And, uh, that was a really powerful experience for me, um, really great time as well. And, uh, I'll always remember the Taylor Fork on that day.

Charles Drimal (26:36):

I think it's a hard choice because there's so many great ones. Um, certainly a river that has already gained a lot of attention. So the cat's out of the bag is the Yellowstone and, um, I've paddled, um, the section that is in this legislation. Um, but there's, uh, there's something about the Yellowstone, uh, for me that actually connects me more up to the headwaters of that river. And so even though, uh, while I'm on a, what we call the upper Yellowstone, which, which flows out of Yellowstone national park and down through Livingston, into big timber, et cetera, and that is such a, an amazing stretch of river to paddle. Um, the segment that's in the legislation goes from the park boundary to a place called Carbella fishing access site. And, um, I, before I got into river conservation, I was a wilderness guide. And, um, I actually had the opportunity on a couple of, uh, years to travel to the, the true headwaters of the Yellowstone River, which is in the heart of the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem, um, in a place called Thorofare, uh, the Thorofare on Younts Peak.

Charles Drimal (27:58):

And there's this amazing mountain that's very remote. And, uh, you could put a drop of water on, on the north face of the mountain and it'll flow into Thorofare Creek. And on the south face, it'll flow into a place called Yellowstone Creek and Thorofare Creek and Yellowstone Creek literally wrap around the west side of, of Younts Peak and join and where they joined. They become the Yellowstone River. It's a place that's got a healthy population of Yellowstone cutthroat trout, healthy populations of grizzly bears, huge elk herds, and, um I've had the fortune of sleeping there many nights. And, um, it's one of those places where it takes a couple of days to get into. Uh, so there's something really special, uh, about that particular place for me. And when I'm on the Yellowstone River, even though I could be 200 river miles downstream or 150 river miles downstream, I actually feel connected to, to that high country. Uh, so I'll put the Yellowstone River as my favorite.

Kristin Kuhn (Host) (29:09):

So, perhaps the most important question, uh, that we're going to ask today is, um, is the movie a river runs through it, an accurate depiction of Montana rivers. Ryan, do you have some thoughts there? You do look remarkably like Brad Pitt. So I would imagine you're biased here.

Ryan Cruz (29:32):

We got a lot of fish. We got a lot of anglers. We got more every year, a river runs through it, a river runs through it. Um, correct me if I'm wrong. I think it's supposed take place on the Blackfoot River. A lot of it was filmed actually on the Gallatin River in Gallatin Canyon, um, which is one of the river segments that, uh, would be designated Wild and Scenic under this legislation. So if you watch a river runs through it and you think, man, places like that deserve to stick around for my great grandchildren. Well then let me tell you, we've got a piece of legislation for you, my friend, we're working, we're working on it.

Kristin Kuhn (Host) (30:12):

Perfect. Um, on that note, you know, what, what can folks do if they do want to help out in this space, get in touch with us.

Ryan Cruz (30:18):

We'd love to have conversations with individuals. You know, everyone's got a different amount of time. They have to put towards these things. And we got that and there's a lot of different things folks can do. Um, you can endorse the Montana Headwaters Legacy Act. You can get in contact with us directly. We'll work with you. If you want to get the word out in your community, um, you can write a letter to the editor for your local paper or, or an op-ed. Um, you can talk to your neighbors about this. You can endorse on behalf of your business. You can help us with outreach, the sky's the limit. And the truth is if we're going to see this thing done, we do need your help.

Kristin Kuhn (Host) (30:52):

Charles, anything to add there?

Charles Drimal (30:57):

Well, the only thing that I'll add, because I think Ryan really articulated that nicely is that we've been working on this for 11 years now as a campaign and as a conservation organization, it takes incredible resources to pull it off. You know, we're, we're, um, staff, we have three staff who have been working on this. Um, we have a budget for it, um, and we can always use more financial support to see this through. And so if you have the means, um, please consider donating to the Greater Yellowstone Coalition, particularly for the Montana Headwaters Legacy Act. And we certainly appreciate the financial support that's needed to, to, uh, complete river conservation here in Montana.

Ryan Cruz (31:49):

Yeah. It goes a long way.

Kristin Kuhn (Host) (31:51):

Is there anything else that you would like folks to know either about the Wild and Scenic designation or this particular piece of legislation, or, you know, any takeaways that you would hope someone listening to, just a humble little podcast coming at you from the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem, uh, would know about your work.

Charles Drimal (32:13):

I would share that we have the privilege of working in a really special place in the world. The Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem is about 20 million acres and it's one of the last, relatively intact temporate ecosystems on the planet. And it's also the headwaters of three of the biggest water in, in, um, in the Western United States. And that's the Columbia system via the Snake River, uh, the Colorado system via the Upper Green and then the whole Missouri basin via the Missouri River and the Yellowstone River, which connects to the Missouri. So water is an incredibly important resource for people and connects to we've estimated 50 to 60 million people downstream from the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem. And here in the ecosystem itself, it's the life force for fish and wildlife. And as Ryan and I have both mentioned, it is also the life force for people. There's a, an impressive ancestral connection to these rivers, which we haven't talked about so far.

Charles Drimal (33:35):

Uh, but indigenous people have been in this landscape since time immemorial, archeologists will say 13,000 to 15,000 years. Uh, the lands that, and the rivers that we're working to protect are the ancestral homelands of Niitsitapi/Blackfeet and Apsáalooke/Crow and Shoshone. Uh, there's a really cool history of, uh, not only in the, in the valleys, but in the high country of sheepeater Shoshone living, um, alongside these rivers. So there's a rich human history here, uh, and the Wild and Scenic Rivers Act can help protect that heritage. Personally, I think that I would emphasize the value of anybody coming out here to spend some time along these rivers. Uh, I think the folks who already live in the region can relate, but the more, um, anyone spends time along these rivers, we, we have the opportunity to develop a relationship with them, um, and start to experience, experience intimacy with this place. And I think again, that intimate relationship helps, uh, bestow a conservation value to protect them.

Ryan Cruz (34:53):

I think Charles hit on a couple of great points there. The human history here is so important. Um, these rivers have been stewarded by people successfully for most of the time that people have been here. We can live next to these rivers on these rivers in a sustainable way it's been done. Um, it's still happening and, uh, on top of that and not, not to trivialize it, but the sheer bang for your buck, you get out of this work. I mean, we, we set up before 70 to 75% of terrestrial species live on are directly next to the river and water flows downhill. Uh, we live in a headwaters of these major river systems and what we do here on the ground is going to benefit everything of us. So, um, and I, you know, I've worked on a wide range of issues for, um, environmental campaigns and they're all near and dear to my heart. But by protecting headwater streams, we do so much good for our efforts. Um, and to me, that's, that's one of the driving motivators to get things like the Montana Headwaters Legacy Act pass. It's the river segments that are going to benefit and everything else that's connected to them, but it's going to benefit now and forever afterwards.

Kristin Kuhn (Host) (36:07):

Uh, Ryan, you're a freshwater man. You like to spend time on freshwater. You have a lot of freshwater. I do activities you do, if you could only, I know we hate these kinds of questions, but I got to ask if you could only do one of those moving forward, what would it be?

Ryan Cruz (36:23):

Yeah. How would I experience fresh water? If I could only do it one way for me, I think there's just no substitute for being on the water, being on the water and paddling and traveling around. I have felt a steady and relentless pull towards fresh water in my whole life sometimes against my will. Um, I grew up with a lot of saltwater around in sage brush. Um, and I just found myself pulled towards the little creeks and canyons where there is just a trickle of fresh water. And then I, uh, went to school in the Pacific Northwest where there's obviously a lot more freshwater. And then I got a job as a canoe guide up in Northern Minnesota. And I found myself on lakes all the time and, um, really fell in love with being on the water all day, traveling on the water, sleeping next to the water's edge.

Ryan Cruz (37:19):

And, uh, those memories will always be near and dear to me. But, um, there's something about rivers. They just are alive. I love lakes. If any lake lovers are listening, I'm not downing on lakes, but for me, rivers just have this energy to them. They're changing, they're alive, they'll sweep you away. If you're not careful, they'll go from placid and idealic to whitewater around a single bend. Um, you know, you gotta be on your toes around the river. And I love fishing. I love hunting. I love, um, you know, right swimming, I guess. But, uh, if I had to pick one, I'll take my canoe.

Charles Drimal (38:03):

I'm right there with Ryan and Ryan and I have had a few experiences paddling together. You know, most of our time is conservation as unfortunately is, is being in meetings with people. And that's not a bad thing. I shouldn't it. Cause I actually really enjoy connecting with people and connecting with new people more in person than on zoom or on Microsoft Teams. But, um, we have had a few opportunities to get out together as we've been working together and pack rafting, especially, um, sections of the Gallatin East Gallatin Taylor Fork. And, you know, any, any time you get on a river point a and get off a river at point B or a new person, the experiences that take place between, uh, you know, your, where you're putting on, where you're taking off are enriching, even if you're, you know, trying to find cover through a thunderstorm or whatever, or, um, avoiding hail in the middle of the summer, they're enlivening, you know, there's always life that we see along these rivers.

Charles Drimal (39:15):

Sometimes it's small mammals, sometimes it's large mammals, um, often there's avian life and fish life that we see. And I think that that experience of being a part of the moving water, it changes our, our chemistry in a way it changes like the energy of, of our bodies. Um, and so when we get out, we feel like we're where new people psychologically, too. I think that it, uh, it's like another one of those flow experiences, uh, in life where you have, uh, uh, for, uh, a time in, sorry, for a certain time we're able to dissolve or let go of this kind of strong identity of self and, um, immerse with the existence that's around us. Um, whether it's the trees, the flow of the water, the banks of the water, the banks of the river, the temperature of the air, the shadows of the clouds or the intensity of the sun.

Charles Drimal (40:24):

Um, these are all things that are, they're like windows of opportunity to let go of being this human being fixated within skin and bones and, um, dealing with so many problems and challenges that we often have in life. And while that's part of reality, another part of reality is just being a human being in a wild place or in a big landscape or in a flowing river. And I think the, in a way, the river is medicine for us. And, um, so I, I paddle with Ryan any day to, uh, to, to choose that one experience with, with moving water.

Kristin Kuhn (Host) (41:09):

You know, I've heard that the reason we, as people are attracted to shiny objects, you know, which now is like jewelry and, you know, rhinestones and sparkly things. It's just because our brains are so programmed to be seeking light glinting off water. And so we are pulled and attracted to water for all. It means because it brings so much with it. And is the source of so much life. I always think that's really interesting.

Ryan Cruz (41:39):

I could believe it. I mean, when I get down to the green of the cottonwood groves on the rivers bank, I love being up in the mountains. I love being in the alpine and backpacking or climbing or whatever I'm skiing, but you know, when I get down into that intense greenery of the riverside forest, I just feel so safe and at home there. And I think there's something, um, you know, in my subconscious, just like all the other species that want to be by the river. There's something in me that wants to be by the river. And, you know, I've got a water bottle in my car. I don't, I don't need the water. I've got a, you know, credit card and come buy a sandwich. I don't need the resources that are on it directly, the way a deer or a beaver does, but just being in that space is so, uh, you can just exhale, you know, it's so comforting when you're there. Maybe it's the sparkles.

Kristin Kuhn (Host) (42:29):

It's probably the sparkles river river glitter. Yeah. It's called river glitter.

Charles Drimal (42:35):

Yeah. I think that our, our lives returned to water constantly. I have a glass of water in front of me right now. And, um, you know, any time I'm in some of those remote places, like, you know, high up in the Alpine, like you were saying, Ryan, um, those are powerful places to go, but my life returns to the creeks to him and buy water and give me life so that I can get to those places or return down into, um, my community. I, I think that's like a really important part of this for me is, is that the, these rivers are life, you know, and, and we're attempting to preserve the life force that they give to fish and wildlife and people, and we're doing it. Um, through the context of us federal legislation called the Wild and Scenic Rivers Act. Water is life.

Kristin Kuhn (Host) (43:36):

Well, thank you both so much for being here and for sharing, uh, some of your stories with us. And of course, thank you for all the work that you've done, bringing the Montana Headwaters Legacy Act to where it is today.

Ryan Cruz (43:49):

Thank you for having us and thanks to everyone listening. Likewise,

Charles Drimal (43:52):

Thanks. Appreciate the opportunity to talk about this. So you guys on the river see out there for wild rivers.

Kristin Kuhn (Host) (44:03):

All right. So some awesome updates for the Montana Headwaters Legacy Act: On June 24th, 2021. It was reintroduced into the Senate by Senator Tester. So great, huge thank you to Senator Tester for supporting this important river conservation work. Also, it now has even more stream segments and river mileage than the first draft of the bill. It's comprised of 20 river sections and 385 river miles, which now effectively double the amount of Wild and Scenic River miles in Montana. We are so excited and can't wait to see this bill become law. If you want to learn more about this bill and the river segments, we'll place a link in the show notes, so you can check it out. Also like Charles mentioned, if you want to make a donation to our work, we'll also have a link to that as well. And thank you so much for your generosity. Our next episode will be all about one of the favorite animals found in the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem, the iconic grizzly bear. You don't want to miss that one. So make sure to subscribe. Thank you for tuning in and we'll get together again soon.