The Wize Way

Episode 170: How to Keep Top Talent Engaged

• Wize Mentoring for Accountants and Bookkeepers

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Struggling to keep your best people?

In this episode of The Wize Way Podcast, Dani and Kristy reveal how to:
✅ Build career pathways that retain A-players
✅ Spot the red flags driving staff away
✅ Create a culture where top talent thrives

If you want to protect your investment in people and keep them engaged long term, don’t miss this one.

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3. Book a 1:1 Wize Discovery Session – Spend 30mins with our Wize CEO, Jamie Johns, a $7M firm owner who is ready to give you his entire business plan to build a firm that can run without you – Find out more here

4. Work with Jamie and our mentors for 8 weeks - Build a custom business plan for your firm - Apply here

Speaker 1:

Welcome to the Wise Way, the show for accounting and bookkeeping firm owners who want more time, profit and freedom, and a business that can run without them. I'm Bren Ward, your host, and each week, we deep dive into the real stories, proven strategies and battle-tested tools from successful firm owners. Just like you, our wise mentors want to share their journey of how they've scaled and systemized their way to freedom. So you can, too. If you're stuck in the grind or you're ready to scale smarter, this is your blueprint. Let's get into the episode.

Speaker 2:

With today's topic. It is about retention. But basically, when you're hiring someone, sometimes you can spend weeks, months hiring the perfect person and then, once you've actually found that great candidate, you know it's amazing. But then they leave in like a year and I'm sure everyone's had that sort of situation before and that's not good. I can see Christy here nodding because yeah, unfortunately it does happen and it's sort of. You know it's jarring, like for a firm owner. You've done all these things, you think that you're doing the right things, and then all of a sudden your staff member's like well, I'm leaving. It's not good. So I guess the biggest thing is that talent retention is it's no longer about just perks or, you know, ping pong tables back in the day, when everyone was in the office. It's about. It's about deeper engagement and it's about aligned values. You know you need to make sure that you're on the same page, but it's about future focused leadership as well. You know you need to make sure that you're growing your team. You know you're growing them, not just saying, okay, I'm promoting you to a different, uh, different level or but actually growing them internally as well.

Speaker 2:

These days, like I mentioned, there's so much going on in the world. So, and life doesn't end at 5pm, you know, it keeps going. And I think it's important for firm owners to know that, to know that their staff have a life outside of work. They're not just grinders. You might have a grinder who is really good at their job and they, you know they can get the work done, but it's yeah, it's more than just they go to work and they switch off Like there's, there's so much more happening. So firm owners need to be aware of that. And you know, replacing I did some research and replacing an employee can cost anywhere between 50% and 200% of a staff member salary. Like 200% is crazy when you stop and think about it. It's yeah, it's very, very expensive. Um, it's, yeah, it's very, very expensive.

Speaker 2:

But not only that, it's also the the loss of knowledge, especially if you have lost a manager. Um, you know, the manager leaves all these staff who would generally go to that manager. They've they've lost that person and they're either not going to do their job properly or they're going to start asking you all these questions and you, as a firm owner, you're already busy, um, so that's really hard. But also, um team morale drops as well, because if someone you know is a really good team member and they leave. You start going well, why did they leave? Maybe Maybe I should leave, maybe this isn't the job for me either.

Speaker 2:

So you start to think about these things and it's also the reputation of your firm, especially like if you've hired a senior client manager and then six months later or a year later, they've left and you've had to rehire another senior client manager and this happens again. Your clients are going to start wondering what's going on in your firm, why you can't keep. You know these people, so are they the right person? You know? Is your firm the right, I guess, firm for them to be working with? Because if you can't keep staff, then what's going on? If you can't keep staff, then then what's going on? Um, yeah, so it's not just about retention, isn't just about keeping people. It's about protecting your investment and building long-term stability, like that's. That's the the best way that I can put it. But, yeah, so, like in 2025, especially with Gen Z and millennials, people want to work for organizations that stand for something. You know, with all the research that I've done on this and everything that I've seen with candidates that I've spoken to, they do want to make sure that they are, yeah, with a firm who actually yeah, like I said, they stand for something. It's not just about salary Like salary is not even something that I'm going to touch on today Unless, of course, you've got questions on it but yeah, it's. It's more than salary these days. It's even more than work from home. Work from home's not even something that I'm going to touch on. It's more than that.

Speaker 2:

So firms need to have a clear vision and a clear mission as well, and they need to have strong values. And if you have that, if you've got a good mission statement and you know that that's what you're working towards, then your staff are going to be proud of that. I know that's something that we have here at Wise. We've got a great vision in mind and a great mission and we're working towards that, and everyone is involved. So it's not just like leadership, it's the entire company is involved in that, and that makes such a huge difference, because you feel like you're a part of something, knowing that you're helping people every day. And another fact that I found is that the fact that so firms who don't have, or firms who do have, a clear mission have 40% lower turnover. So that's that's a big thing as well, like 40% is is big um.

Speaker 2:

And I think it's important to remember that. You've got to move past the whole one size fits all um because it's that's not the case these days. You know you can't, can't just go oh, this person's doing well, so I'm just going to move you in this position or whatever it is Like. You need to do those one-on-one meetings because when you start doing those one-on-one meetings, then you find out what your candidates or what your employees are actually interested in. And when you find out what they're interested in, you start, you can start tailoring things and working with them to you know to go okay, well, you, everything that you've told me, let's work towards you becoming, you know, a manager or an SPM or a senior client manager or whatever it is.

Speaker 2:

But if you don't know your employees, if you don't know anything about them they just come to work, do their work and leave then you're not going to know what makes them happy. You're not going to know you know if they are unhappy and they are looking for another place. So I feel like I'm talking, like I hope I'm not giving everyone like too much information too quickly, but I would like to hear, christy, from you, if it's okay, in regards to your staff retention. So far, what you've seen with your own firm is there like a key factor of something that's made, like what's something that you've noticed? Staff if they're leaving, why are they leaving? Or if they're staying, why are they staying?

Speaker 3:

yeah, well, gone are the days of churn and burn. Thank goodness, I some very short, short-term team members because I didn't really know what I was doing. I needed to work on my own leadership skills and have better processes in place to retain I think it's. I'm sure at some point in our careers we've all been an employee. So it's being able to think through that lens of what did you used to like and dislike when you worked for someone else and bringing that into your own leadership skills, of creating a space where your team members feel supported, they feel seen and heard. And you know sometimes you need to make the tough call of moving someone on too. And you know sometimes you need to make the tough call of moving someone on too. You know the cost of a mishire, the cost of the wrong values or cultural fit in your business can cost you good people if you don't act fast as well. So it's being able to identify people, how the team dynamics are with each person and seeing everyone as individuals. We're not all the same. We don't all need the same things, we don't all like the same things. So when you're looking at your team member engagement, you know one of the best things for me is having team NPS in place, having that weekly survey go out to my team and helping identify where my team are not feeling appreciated or valued or supported or connected with their team. And then I have to think globally, because it doesn't tell me who's feeling out of alignment. So I have to think globally of what can I do that will support improvement in this area across my whole team. So, looking at initiatives that you can bring in and, you know, making sure that everyone is working for the same goal and vision.

Speaker 3:

You know, when you were talking earlier, Danny, it reminds me very much of a team member I hired must be three and a half years ago now. Initially, when we made the job offer to him, he turned it down because he was in the fortunate position of having a few offers being made and our offer wasn't the highest. But he came back to us within a day or two and said actually I really like your business, I like how it sounds to be part of your team and I'd really like to work with you. So we were able to get a great hire who's still here because of the clarity I have around my vision, my mission and my values, the way that we framed that on our website, the way that we framed that in our recruitment process, in having a video in our job ad talking about the culture of my business, so we're able to attract and retain the right person.

Speaker 3:

You know, I think about when we do our career wheel with team members. It asks about values alignment. If our team members don't know my values, they couldn't score that one or they'd score it low if it felt out of alignment. So these are all the little micro pieces that help you attract and retain the right people and also know when you've got the right people and the wrong people, because as business owners and leaders, we should also look at our value system and when we're assessing our team, do they align with our values? Even when it comes to clients, do they align with our values? Do they behave in a way that we can support or is it against our beliefs? So you know, these are all the little pieces to pull together when you're looking at attracting and retaining people yeah, thanks, christy, you've just reminded me.

Speaker 2:

Um, I'm currently hiring for a client at the moment and we had an interview yesterday and the, the person that we interviewed, they had all the technical skills, but there was just that the the firm owner couldn't see this person working with their team, you know, especially because this person was going to be like an assistant client manager, stepping into that client like senior client manager position. And, yeah, the firm owner was like I cannot see this person actually managing my team. They're not going to work well together. And actually managing my team they're not going to work well together. And that's really important. So, seeing that stuff from the very beginning, that way you can avoid a mishire. But, yeah, something that a lot of firms are starting to do and I think it's great. So they're bringing in like wellness programs. So I know one particular firm and I'm not sure if, if the firm owner's here today, but she does like a wellness Wednesday. So they, they pick a different topic. Um, I know some firms will do like a book that they'll read together, like a little book club, um, and they'll read like a wellness book. But yeah, you pick, you pick a different topic and then you basically just you talk about it, you sort of rate yourself from 1 to 10 on how you're feeling, and then you go from there. So I know, christy, we do this as well with Jamie and Brenton, and if it's anything lower than an 8, then we need to have a one-on-one meeting with Jamie. Yeah, and it's just, it's all about that. An eight, then we need to have a one-on-one meeting with Jamie. Yeah, and it's just, it's all about that.

Speaker 2:

That career wheel as well that you mentioned, christy, and even now the IP that Jamie's created with the career audit, that's really important and I think it's something that, if you can, you do it with your staff when they are first onboarded, like when you first onboard someone, it's good to do it then and there. But of course, doing it because it will change as well as they develop different skills and everything, things will start to change. So doing that career audit from time to time is really important as well. Career audit from time to time is really important as well. There is also like a personal audit that Jamie's created and that's you should be doing that with your staff, like monthly, because, again, their personal life, it can affect their work life. So you know if they're not happy in their personal life, then it is really dangerous because something small could happen at work and they can go. Okay, that's it, I'm done. So, yeah, just checking in on them, so doing those one-on-one meetings monthly, yeah, and again, it's not just about work.

Speaker 2:

So you know, jamie, when I first met Jamie and this is the first time this has ever happened with like any of my bosses um, jamie started asking me questions about, like my personal life. He started telling me stuff about his personal life and it just like, yes, he's my boss, but it's just nice to know that if I do have an issue, I can, I can go to him and I know that he's going to listen. And that's what people want as well. People want to know that they can trust their boss, to know that if they do go to them with their issues, their boss isn't going to be like okay, you've got too many issues, I'm going to let you go. It's you know, their boss is going to build them like, build their resilience, their strength, like they're going to help them get to that stage where they're able to handle things. And that's why it's really important to build your leaders, because obviously you're going to be your as you build your firm. You're going to want to work on your firm, not in your firm.

Speaker 2:

So, as firm owners, it's your job to actually build your leaders, your senior client managers or, you know, your SPMs, to be able to do that, to detect if your staff do have personal problems going on. So you know, if it, you know, if your leaders aren't trained in this, then again you're going to have problems. It's just going to keep going down and down and then people are going to start leaving. So there is another fact, a little fact that I found. So firms with embedded wellbeing strategies report a 30% increase in employee satisfaction. So that's like 30% again is big. You know, obviously we look at it from 1% to 100, 30% isn't that big, but it's still people that you're working with, it's still your staff. You've still invested time, money, energy into finding these people. So you know, christy, there's this awesome saying that I love. I think you say it about. You know, if you train, what happens if you train your staff and they leave.

Speaker 3:

Oh, yeah, it's not from me, but it's definitely something that I repeat. That it's something about yeah, gosh, sorry, my brain's gone blank, but it's something about, you know, if you train good people and they leave, but what if you train bad people and they don't leave?

Speaker 2:

Yeah. And you know Ed often speaks it up- Is it what if you don't train people and they say oh sorry, yes, yeah, that's okay.

Speaker 3:

I'm going to add it to my sticky note list so that I remember it perfectly next time Do you? Need a hand there. Yeah, Peter, yes, please, Peter, if you remember it. Yeah, I do so. Yeah, if you keep bad people and you don't train them, what happens? That's it?

Speaker 2:

yeah, but if you, yeah, if you train them and they leave, that's a problem, but if you keep bad people and you don't train them, that's even worse. Yeah, okay, and Chrissy, I think that is what you said, sorry.

Speaker 3:

I was like yeah, and, and Ed often speaks to you know it's better to have an empty seat than the wrong person speaks to you know it's better to have an empty seat than the wrong person in a seat in your business. So you know it's. Yeah, you really have to get to know people. It's not about you know, we're not flooded with grinders anymore. It's difficult to attract the right people in any role and to retain them. But retaining the right people and wellness is a big part of that. I know.

Speaker 3:

For us we have a few different wellbeing and wellness initiatives. We have a wellbeing allowance, so we're a fully remote team, and our team members have an allowance or budget every year for wellness improvement. So if they need something in their office to feel more comfortable, we've had a team member invest their allowance in a sit-stand desk. We've had another set up in a really cool keyboard mouse. That just really excites him. He's a bit of a nerd. It's really cute. It's like an old Atari. If any of you are my vintage then you'll know what I mean. So it's you know. For him that just makes him feel excited to be at work, and for other team members she was having back issues. So to be able to have the flexibility of a sit-stand desk was important for her, and you know others. If they just need to get an extra massage, then they can use that wellbeing allowance towards that. So it's looking at. You know, not everyone has the same needs, but how can you accommodate under the umbrella of wellbeing?

Speaker 3:

Our team created, which was started by one of our team members' husbands. I don't know how he's still alive to tell the tale, but he suggested to his wife that she should walk more because she sits at her desk. So he bought her some shoes, some really cool shoes and then he bought her like a Garmin watch or something, and she thought, well, this is great, I'm going to get my team members on board as well. So now they've created this online walking group where everyone can track their steps per day. They set mini targets On a Monday they look at last week's stats and they all support each other and say, oh, you didn't get as many, you, okay? How are you feeling? So it's just created this little conversation with them. Our office manager often sends wellness emails to the team, reminders of stretching some good ways to move when you're at your desk and just keep it fresh. So you know it's just seeing everyone as people, not just cogs in the wheel that turns your business thanks, chrissy, that was perfect.

Speaker 2:

But yeah, what you just said because yeah, it's a great way to to sort of to sum up what we're, what we're trying to talk about today like, obviously there's still more that we're we're going to cover, but yeah, just to that, people like you are dealing with people, that it's, they're not just another number. Like I know some firm owners sort of have that mentality of, well, if it doesn't work out, there's so many other people out there. But why would you do that when you could just invest? You know you, you invest in your people and they will grow, they will stay with your firm, um, so, there's.

Speaker 3:

Just on that, danny, sorry if I can, sorry interrupt you. But one of the things that I really love about why it's deep and narrow team structure is, you know, we often think that gone are the gold watch days of employment. People do tend to change careers every two to five years and I'm sure, dani, in your toolbox of stats, that you would have that somewhere to refer to. But you know, know, this generation does move between jobs. They move from one business to another.

Speaker 3:

What you can create in a wise, structured firm is career pathways that sustain people for 10, 15, 20 years, because you can start off as a grinder, as an intermediate or a graduate, can move up into senior bookkeeper, accountant, then there's a production manager position, then you've got client manager positions and then you've also got the executive positions. You've got assistant CFO, cfo, you might have a COO, ceo. There are all of these opportunities that you can create as you grow and scale your business with the clarity and tools and resources that we have in our Wise Vault to show you how to get there. So there's this opportunity to always be offering new career pathways within your business so you don't have to lose people because they want a more senior position or you don't have to give them equity and partnership in the business. There are other ways to retain team members and grow a really long successful career together, and that's yeah, I think that's really special.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, absolutely. I just you just reminded me of Jamie and um Char, who Char works with Jamie at Sky Accountants and she started I think it was about nearly 10 years ago or something, as I think like a junior accountant at Char's, like she's in the Philippines, um, and now she's worked her way up to I think it's COO and I think they, I think they're trying to help her actually get a sponsorship and come to Australia. Like that is a perfect example of what happens when you invest in your people. Even here at Wise, I don't think we've had anyone quit because it's, yeah, like Jamie, brenton, ed, they, they invest in us, they actually they see us than more than just a number. Basically, um, another cog in the wheel, as you mentioned, christy, like it's, it's more than that, um, because, and like I said earlier, life doesn't, it doesn't end at 5 pm, um, yeah, you've just you've got to keep that in mind as firm owners.

Speaker 2:

But I, I wanted to sort of touch on the red flags, I guess, of you know, undermining retention and all of that. So the biggest one and I feel like everyone should know this one micromanagement. So nothing drives your top people out more than feeling like they're being watched over constantly, especially if you have a remote team. If you feel like you can't trust your team members to do their job remotely, maybe remote work isn't the right thing for your firm. Um, like, if you constantly need to be checking in on them and and being like well, what are you doing now? Or whatever it is. Um, if you just, if you're constantly complaining about the fact that you can't see them daily or, you know, every couple of minutes, then yeah, maybe work from home isn't the right setting for your particular firm. Yeah, because if people do feel like they are being micromanaged, they're not going to stay.

Speaker 2:

But the next thing is lack of role clarity. So and I've dealt with a lot of candidates who have said to me that the reason that they're leaving their firms is because they don't know where they're going they join the firm. The firm owner's like yep, this is sort of what we're thinking at the moment, but you know we'll just work towards it and nothing happens. Or they're just the firm owners like I just need you to do this for now and then we'll look at things later. Like, if people don't know where they're going to be, it doesn't necessarily have to be 12 months' time, but even two years' time or three years' time, then they're going to start getting like restless, because no one wants to be stuck in the same role doing the same thing forever. You could still have your grinders doing that sort of thing, but if they can't see themselves stepping into like a manager position or even just training less experienced team members, if they're just constantly doing the same thing day in and day out, they're not going to be happy, they're not going to stay, they're going to want to, you know, join a firm that challenges them and that sort of leads me into like the next one, which is stagnant growth. So, yeah, it's the same thing. No one wants to feel stuck. People want to know that they are achieving goals and everything. And this is why the career audit is so important to do with your staff, because when you do the career audit with them, you can see what their skills are, what they're actually passionate about, what would be a good fit for them in terms of the role and everything.

Speaker 2:

Another thing is so the fourth thing is over-reliance on perks. So you know and I've written this little thing down free coffee and a ping pong table won't fix a toxic culture. A toxic culture. That's yeah, it's so true. Because, yes, perks are nice, but they're not, it's not a substitute for respect or, you know, feeling included or having meaningful work. You know you need to focus on building your team. Again, I've had candidates say that the reason that they're leaving their firms is because they do feel like they are in a toxic culture or there's like little clicks or things like that, and clicks can still happen, even if it's remote work, like they don't have to be in an office to feel that offshore team members could still have clicks or whatever. It is Another thing. So number five is communication. So, again, this is where the one-on-one meetings they come in handy. That's so important.

Speaker 2:

But also lack of transparency. If you're not being honest, if you're not giving feedback to people as well. You know, if you're getting angry with someone because they're not doing a good job, but you're getting angry with someone because they're not doing a good job but you're not giving them the right feedback, that's on you, that's not on them. Because how are they going to grow, how are they going to know what they're doing wrong, if you're not telling them um and again, like unclear direction, um it. Basically, if, if you're not giving them the right direction, it can build that untrust. Basically, the employee is not going to be able to trust you to give them the right guidance and employees want to feel like they're included. So, and you, you know, even heard. And that's why the like the, the, what's it called Chrissy, the NPS school, yeah, that's why the NPS is so important to do with your team members. We do it every two weeks here at WISE and it is really important because it means that Brenton and Jamie can get our feedback and and it is like it's anonymous, they don't know who it is unless we tell them, because there's a setting that you can, you know, say that it's from you. But, yeah, your staff, if you're not putting those things into place, your staff are never, they're not going to feel heard. And that's not good either because, like we've been saying, this entire call, it's just, it's more than work. You know you want to. You want to build that, that team culture, that that family, that respect, so that people feel comfortable enough to tell you their problems. Um, you know, you're not a counselorsellor, but if your staff can trust you enough to go okay, this is what I'm dealing with and just feel heard, then you're on the right track, whereas if they don't feel comfortable enough to tell you anything, that's when there's a problem.

Speaker 2:

Number seven is no work-life balance. So again, burnout. So burnout is real. It's again a lot of candidates who leave firms. They tell me that they're leaving because of burnout. And, chris, you would know this as well, like you've heard it so many times from candidates. You know you'll have a conversation with them and they're like I'm leaving because of burnout. You know, if you're constantly getting your staff to stay back and do more work and not giving them any notice either, if you're just saying, okay, I need you to do this now, without you know, talking to them about it earlier, you know, maybe the day before or whatever it is. But yeah, if you're constantly getting them to do overtime, your staff are going to go well, what am I doing? Like I'm not spending any time with my family, I'm just basically working all the time. So that's the leave. That's the reality of it. If they feel like they're being overworked, they won't stay.

Speaker 2:

Number eight is inconsistent leadership. So leadership that frequently changes directions. So if your managers are basically just going okay, we're going to do something this way, and then a week later they're like this isn't working, we're going to do it another way. And they just keep constantly doing that because you haven't actually trained them to be good leaders. That's really dangerous, because if you haven't trained them, how are they supposed to manage their team if they're figuring things out constantly and just they're not being guided themselves? That's, you know. It's not good because your staff are going to go. What's going on? Like you can't even manage me. It's yeah, it's basically going to ruin that relationship. So I think we sort of touched on this earlier.

Speaker 2:

But number nine is ignoring employee feedback. So you know, if you ask your employees for feedback but then ignore it like you just go, okay, well, thank you for that, but don't actually address it in the one-on-one meetings or whatever it is. Your staff are going to feel like they're not being heard, they don't matter, they don't care and yeah, it's just, they're going to leave. I know I've said that so many times, but it's true, because people want to know that their voices are being heard and that what they're going through actually matters. If your staff are telling you okay, I don't have the capacity to do this, do the capacity planner. You know, see what's going on, because, yeah, that could be the case or maybe they're not the right fit for the role, but, yeah, actually do something about it and then, yeah, that's pretty much it. Like that sums up everything.

Speaker 2:

I do have number 10 as being toxic team dynamics, but again, we sort of touched on that earlier with the whole toxic culture and everything, um. But yeah, I will just sort of add sometimes it can take one team member who has like that toxic um, uh, I don't know what the word is, but like a toxic team member can ruin it for everyone. Basically, and I've seen that in a lot of firms, um, staff members will leave because of one person, um, especially if they feel like that one person basically controls everything and the team doesn't feel like they have a say. So you know what's the point of saying anything to my boss? And that's where that good communication with your you know, with your staff come in handy, so that if your staff member do have an issue and I know we talk about the no bypass policy and no triangles, that is 100% true but if your staff are having issues with their team leaders and their team leaders are toxic and not doing anything about it, if your staff don't feel comfortable to come to you and be like there is an issue, I am being micromanaged, I'm being disrespected, spoken down to whatever it is.

Speaker 2:

If you don't build that relationship with your staff, you know they're not going to stay. But they won't tell you what's going on either, because they'll be scared. They'll be scared to mention anything about their team leader and because they don't have that relationship with you, they'll just say, well, there's no point in sticking around, I'm just going to leave. So, yeah, just something to be aware of there as well. So I guess the actionable points, the steps that firm owners should be taking and you're probably going to be like you sound like a broken record, but have your regular one-on-one meetings. Don't just do it, you know, every six months, like it's not just about the performance reviews, it's about that constant open communication with your staff and if and when you do the career wheel or the career order or whatever it is, if they do get below an eight, put steps into place to fix that. You know, have that, have those meetings and go okay. Well, this is what we're going to work towards, thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Wise Way.

Speaker 1:

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