Episode 196: People, Structure and AI vs Recruitment: Straight Talk with Ed Chan

Avoid the mistake of blaming the market every time a hire does not work out, or you will keep repeating the same costly cycle without ever fixing the real problem underneath it.

In this episode of The Wize Way Podcast, Ed Chan sits down with Bren Ward to cut through the noise on what is actually driving the people challenge in accounting firms right now.

✅ Why AI will not make accountants redundant, and the historical proof that efficiency gains have always created opportunity rather than unemployment

 ✅ The real reason you cannot find good people, and why its less related to labor shortage than you think.

✅ Why flat team structures are the root cause of most hiring failures, and what a deep and narrow team blueprint looks like instead 

✅ How hybrid and remote work can maintain or even lift productivity when you stop managing by feeling and start managing by numbers 

✅ The BPO versus direct hire debate, and why Ed is a firm believer in the direct offshore model 

✅ Why chasing unicorn candidates is costing you more than you think, and what a championship team structure delivers instead 

✅ How to tailor your recruitment and testing process to the specific role you are hiring for

Tune in to hear where Ed stands on AI's real impact on the profession, how recruitment has shifted from the traditional model to where it needs to be today, and why getting your team structure right is the foundation everything else is built on.

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Transcript

Welcome And What We Cover

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to The Wise Way, the show for accounting and bookkeeping firm owners who want more time, profit, and freedom and a business that can run without them. I'm Brent Ward, your host, and each week we deep dive into the real stories, proven strategies, and battle-tested tools from successful firm owners just like you. Our wise mentors want to share their journey of how they've scaled and systemized their way to freedom so you can too. If you're stuck in the grind or you're ready to scale smarter, this is your blueprint. Let's get into the episode. Hi Ed, so I've got a good conversation with you today around people and hiring. We're talking a lot about hiring at the moment because one, it's one of the fundamental pillars to grow your firm, but two, it's one of uh, if not one of the hardest seasons we've had in hiring that we've seen in the industry in a long time. So thanks as always for your insights. The first thing is um, and it's a bit of a joke, but it is uh it is very topical at the moment. Is I don't know whether we even need to be talking about hiring because if you listen to the market, they're all telling us that our jobs are going to be redundant very quickly, and everyone's in the accounting space is no longer going to have a job in the next couple of years due to the advent and introduction of AI. Uh, you've heard this a few times before in your your career. So I just want your comment to cut through the noise uh on the topic because yes, AI is different to um revolutions, evolutions, and tech that have come in the past, but the theme's probably the same in terms of the noise and what's happening in the the industry. So give us some sage advice to cut through all the rhetoric and noise at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 1:54

Um well when when I first started in accounting, um we needed around 15 accountants per million dollars in fees. And then as software came on board, um, those desktop accounting came on board, that actually reduced the number of the number of accountants that's required. Okay, so that actually reduced it to about nine. And then when it went into the cloud, uh cloud accounting actually reduced it to about five. And I believe that uh with AI you'll reduce it to two, right? So but but accounting firms made the same amount of money, so our our costs reduced, but our profit remained the same. So we were able to get through a lot more productivity and with a lot less overhead. So the from an accountant's perspective, accounting firms perspective, it's always a good thing to be more efficient and um you know run your business with lower costs and and so forth. So so that's that's gonna still be there. The I believe that what's gonna change is the is is there's gonna be more emphasis on the relationship because AI can produce the numbers, but you've still got that relationship, you've still got to be able to explain it, and you've got to be able to explain it in in the way that is is relevant to their situation, and only the accountant will understand that. So that relationship will still be there. But for graduates coming out of university, it will be less number crunching, grinding, you know, the manual kind of work. It will be um this the computers will do everything, and your skill set when you come out of university is more about your people skills, your communication, um, you know, building relationships. Um, because we're in a business of relationships. It's it's the relationship that the clients want uh with us that's in that's very important. And that's going to get more and more and more important over the over the years. Um, so um, yes, the accountants, the number of accountants will will be less, but the accounting business will still will be still will still be there. So and and I've seen that over you know from 19 from the 80s, you know, all the way through, um, our profits have remained the same as efficiencies got more and more. And I'm talking from Australia, but our overall unemployment rate has been the same as the economy grew. As the economy grew, the GDP grew, it created more jobs, and um, you know, it get it these people got absorbed into the the overall uh overall growth of the country. So I can't see that slowing down any anytime soon. So certainly from Australia's point of view, um, you know, we we'll still we'll still have lots of jobs for everyone. It'd just be different, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

So from that perspective, right, uh a firm owner, an owner owner-led firm, um, heavily in the trenches, is is currently having to contend with both thinking about what the impact of AI is going to be on their business from a people and from a um you know a service perspective, but then also currently dealing with the fire of I can't find talent to do the work that I've got on my plate right now, uh, and I can't keep great talent because of the just short pure shortage in the industry. Um, so what do you say to a firm owner that's like stuck in this almost you know um tug of war uh in the the industry at the moment?

SPEAKER_01 5:53

It's always been the same. Uh for as long as I've you know been alive, if you like, or old enough to be alive, there's always been a shortage of getting good people. So that's always been there. There's there's people out there, but just getting good people. And and um part of it is is our problem um because we traditionally run flat teams, and um, when you run flat teams, you're gonna you're gonna get this problem. So when you run deep and narrow teams and you have a a blueprint for the team with the right positions in this team structure, and then you recruit the right person for the right seat, uh, then it's a lot easier uh and and it's a lot more uh productive, it's a lot more efficient. Um but but most firms don't do that, they just hire I I call it throw a body at at the workload, and doesn't matter you know what that workload is, just throw a body at it and then hope that it works out. And uh and we see that with the firms that understand the firm that's worked with us through Wise Growth and so forth, they they have they have their blueprint of their team structure, and then we recruit to fit those positions. And the firms that haven't done our coaching uh that they they just come in, they just want to hire an accountant, and that's where the problem is. They're not specifically hiring the right person for the right position. And and I think that that's that's where the main problem is.

Hiring To Roles Not Workload

Hybrid Flexibility And Competing For Staff

SPEAKER_00 7:32

So you're saying there we don't we don't actually, in fact, have a talent or talent shortage problem. We've got a team structure problem. The more systemic it is team structure, not talent shortage. Correct. Correct. Very interesting. And I just want to touch on your point there on um recruitment, the recruitment process. Because having having our own recruitment agency through Wise Talent, we get a you know a first-hand cold-face insight into the challenges that firm owners have in the recruitment process. And it's very interesting to see the results and the contrast between uh a firm owner who's willing to be open uh and adoptive of um you know current recruitment practices and that that being team structure, so hiring for roles, that being hybrid working, so working both in office and and at home, um, and and also just the flexibility around work, whether it be um you know a little bit more flexible to the traditional nine to five. Compared to those owners who that are staunch in their you know, the traditional view, the team member has to be in the office. It's it's an eight to five um you know working day, and there's no room for you know if, buts, or maybes around that. The result is dramatically different for obvious reason, but I just want you to touch on that in terms of how we need to think about these new ways of recruiting and and matching the market if we want to find talent.

Culture Trade Offs And Tracking Numbers

SPEAKER_01 9:07

Absolutely, because you're competing, you're competing with you know other firms out there, and you've like in the past, we've had to provide certain things to attract the staff to to our organization, subject to the competition, and um you need to provide that that option for them, otherwise they'll they'll go somewhere else that will you know provide that option. Now the the the problem, of course, is that we feel that you you lose a bit of bit of culture, you lose a bit of camaraderie, you you lose a little bit of productivity, perhaps, um, unless you run timesheets and you can track uh productivity, um you know you've just got to you've just gotta go with the market. Because if you if you don't go with the market, you're not gonna be able to find staff because the the world's moved on, you know, and and and really if you're running a business and sort of a practice and you've got all the systems in place and you're tracking time, the time sheets, you've got KPIs, you've got um our you're running our fab five, then you know, our productivity, and I and I've still got Chan and Allah going, our productivity is just as high as it ever was when they used to all come to the office, uh, but now that's working from home. Yes, it's true that you lose a little bit of culture, yes, that's true, but it depends on the leader as to how they bring everyone together, you know, like like we have daily huddles on in the now instead of being at the office, we have daily huddles, you know, uh on on Zoom. Um we have lots of lots of training, and then we do get together, you know. Um so they do come in to to have staff training in the office. So it's just how how you run that. It the the conditions are different today, and you've got to adjust to those conditions, but then again, it just depends on how you as your as the leader of your team engages everyone together. There is a a bit more effort and a bit more planning. But if you do the planning, what I mean by planning is you make sure that these meetings are happening, and uh, you know, we we do come into the office to do training and and that kind of stuff. If you if you if you're a bit more organized and plan at a bit, your iPhone you're still getting the same, the same camaraderie, the same culture, the same certainly the productivity is is still there, you know.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

Um I find it interesting there, just thinking about that, from what you mentioned on culture. So, yes, the culture takes a bit of a hit because putting humans in a room together creates something special with culture that we just can't match virtually. However, would you agree that with what we lose in culture, our team members are gaining in that lifestyle balance or or you know, more um more accessibility to the things that they need to do or want to do in their own lives, making appointments, picking up kids if they need to, um, being in their own surroundings. So what we lose in culture, we gain in lifestyle. Would that be a fair comment to you? Like just thinking it through? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 12:22

I mean, you know, in in this day and age, it's it's about flexibility, okay, having the flexibility to to get the work done when you're you know, when it suits your lifestyle and your your timetable. And you know, and as long as the if you're running it like a business and the timesheets are there, the productivity is there, you know. I I I remember I was old school, okay. I I wanted everyone to come back to the office. And then when Cindy, Cindy runs uh the business, she said, she said, look at the numbers. And I had no comeback. The numbers were there, they were our ibots were higher than they've ever been. Uh our imitative was higher than it's ever been. And so I had no comeback to her. You know, she has a feeling I had. Yeah. But feelings aren't always accurate. You've got to look at the numbers. If you look at the numbers, and the numbers will tell you the answer, and I just throw my feelings out the window and just stick stick with the numbers. You know, but but we we run everything. We've got the fab five, we've got KPIs, we've got timesheets, we've got all that. So it's it's it's not hard for me to get over my feelings when I look at the numbers.

SPEAKER_00 13:31

Yeah. Well, and that's the thing, in in the absence of the numbers, your feelings are all you have, right? Which can lead to very scary places. Uh really.

SPEAKER_01 13:40

Yeah, they're not they're not um, it's not very sometimes it's not very accurate. Sometimes it is accurate, but some sometimes it's not accurate. You you just got to look at the numbers.

Offshoring In An AI Future

SPEAKER_00 13:50

Yeah. So just pivoting to um offshore and you know working, working remotely. So working remotely can mean uh team members are uh locally working from home, but in the last 15 years, we've had the introduction and you know we've leveraged uh the ability to offshore and hire talent in different countries. Um that was you know very much say 15 years ago, we're in the early adopter phase, and there was a lot of upside and a lot of benefit to that, uh, both from a productivity talent pool increasing profitability point of view. We're now into the late, not not so much the late adopter stage, but we're definitely in the the bigger wave of adoption of uh offshoring. So it is we are seeing it becoming harder to find talent offshore. But also with the advent of AI and the introduction of uh the efficiency there, and what you're saying that we could see you know a million dollars in fees being delivered by two people as a buy. Where do you see offshoring going then for as a strategy that a firm adopts? Um, do you see it becoming redundant or does it still have its place? Is it shifting? What are your thoughts on it?

SPEAKER_01 15:08

It it's still be it'll still be there. Yeah, it it still it won't disappear. And and as you know, uh Brenton, we've been doing it for a while now, and you we've seen that the wages. Um we we go to Philippines and we've seen their wages, they don't go up like in Australia by CPI, they go up by 20-30 percent. Yeah, yeah. So as the demand has grown, it's it's pushed their wages up. But that but that's normal. So, you know, we we we'll we'll have an opportunity to take advantage of the lower wages for a while, but then as their standard of living increases, uh their wages will go up. And and we've seen that throughout history. So straight after the Second World War, you know, the Japanese wages was very low. So things that came out of Japan were very cheap because their wage structure was very low. And then as time went on, their wages caught up to the West. And then uh, you know, things out of Japan are expensive, and then it went to uh China. China was very cost effective, but their wages have gone up now, and then then then it's now gone to the Philippines and Vietnam, and we're seeing the same thing. So maybe another you know, five to ten years their wages will catch up as well, and then you know, it will have to go to another country that's still very competitive, but um, but I think outsourcing will still be there. Uh, I just don't think the number of accountants that we need will be there as AI kicks in. Um but possibly our our role, the accounting role will change. Um we'll we may provide other services to to to to clients as as the relationship changes. I'm not sure. Um, but looking at history, it has changed a little bit. We've gone um it's it's always been a relationship, kind of a relationship with the as a as opposed to transactional, a transactional um relationship. Uh, and that that's the most powerful thing you have with your client is that relationship. Because once you've got the trust, you know, you you can do anything, you know, you can offer them they trust you and they'll they'll go with you. So I think that relationship will still be there. What we deliver to them might might change over time.

SPEAKER_00 17:35

So um in relation to uh offshoring, there has been quite a heavy debate, certainly in the last 12 months, with the with the hearing of um cases in the Fair Work Commission in Australia. So we're talking about Australia in this instance, but it's still the debate that happens globally around hiring uh through a BPO uh or an organization who um you know retains the staff member but gives them to you through an outsourcing uh arrangement or hiring directly and um training and managing that team member directly offshore. What are your thoughts on a again trying to cut through this noise at the moment where there is quite a heavy debate on uh the cons of hiring directly as opposed to the pros of hiring through a BPO? Um what would your how would you help the firm owner make some decisions around this?

SPEAKER_01 18:33

Oh well, obviously first thing is costs, because if you hire them through a BPO, there's a there's a component that goes back to the BPO organization, and you lose a little bit of control because um they really belong to the BPO and um you know they outsource it to you. Yes, it you you get the same person each time, but um it's paid through the organization, so there is a little bit of loss of control there, as opposed to hiring it directly. It's just your staff member, they just happen to not live in Sydney or live in Brisbane, they just happen to live in the Philippines, and uh, but they they do everything, they they work for you 100% of the time, you do the same training and and so forth, and um and they're just not in your office, they're overseas um overseas. Um, and with the advent of people working two or three days from home now, that's that's that's no different to that, except they're in the Philippines or in India or they're somewhere else. So, but they do work for you, and then you've got to you know bring them in the same way for staff training, the culture training, all those kind of things. Um, so I don't see any different. Um I'm a big believer in that, and I know it's a very controversial uh topic because um we we should be we're told we should be hiring Australians, and uh and that's great. Um but you just we just can't find staff. The staff is just not around. And um, and if there were, we would. Um there's there's an uh more availability uh overseas and there's a cost factor involved, there's a cost savings factor. So if I can if I can save some money there, I can pay my local staff a bit more. So the local staff have been more, as you know, we've got this team structure where there's a senior client manager, and the senior client manager deals with the client. So most of our uh accountants who are the senior client manager who communicate with the clients, they're local people. The the grinders, if you like, the one that are doing all the all the grinding work, is generally from overseas. Um, and if we can save, you know, money doesn't fall out of trees, so you've got to be able to save some from somewhere where you can pay your local staff a bit more and you can be a bit more competitive with your pricing to your clients. And you're helping, certainly in the Philippines, you know, we're helping those people get out of poverty. And it warms my heart to see some of our staff over there do, you know, they they end up buying a car, going provide um paying medical costs for their mum and dad to get to get operations uh done, and you know, their standard of living goes up and they end up buying a house. And you know, it it just warms my heart to, from a humanity point of view, to to help them, you know, get ahead in life. And um, and of course, if if we could find the staff here in Australia, we would do the same. Um, but you know, our unemployment is at rates about four point something percent, and at five percent, that's full employment. And we've always had full employment. So, and there's always you know, there's always Is a percentage that is unemployable, and that's just the way life is, and you know, our society looks after them, uh, despite themselves, despite you know, the opportunities in Australia, there are some people who are not employable, and we live in a civilised society, so we take care of them, and and and and it it works, you know, the whole thing works. And as long as our economy is growing, uh, which it is, um, you know, that then it it it it will provide, as long as we do GDP of about two to three percent, our unemployment will set at about five percent or less, and that's full employment, and the thing ticks along. Um, so um, so I I don't I I think outsourcing is a win-win for everybody. It's a win for obviously for the staff member overseas, uh, because they get paid a lot better than if they got a local job overseas. So they they're very well paid by by people like ourselves. We help our staff, our local staff, because we can pay them more. If we save a bit from the the outsource stuff, we can pay our local staff a bit more. It's a win for the the clients because they get their work done really quickly and we can be a bit more competitive with the pricing to them. So they win as well. So it's a win right across the board. So I I I'm I'm very big proponent, big supporter of outsourcing.

SPEAKER_00 23:30

Let's switch to the hiring process in general. Uh the there's a a slogan or a saying that's been around the business, you know, traps for a while in hiring where you hire slow and fire fast. Where where is that sat in your vocabulary and what's your experience with that? Would you have any strong feelings on it?

SPEAKER_01 23:52

Uh yes, I I I do. I I support that saying um because the cost of getting it wrong is so high. Um, you get the wrong person in, and then it's it's damage all the way down, damage for them as well, because they're not in the right job. Um so I I'm a big proponent on on you know hiring slow and making sure you get the right person. And the other saying is a seat left empty is better than a seat occupied by the wrong person. Um so uh 100% I I support that. But I I it's not as simple as that, Brenton. It's it's it's if you don't have the right team structure in place, yeah, that makes the the chance of hiring the wrong person much much higher. Um because you haven't got that blueprint and you're just hiring people, and there's a high chance you're getting the wrong person. It's not the it's not the person often, it's just that it's the wrong position for them.

SPEAKER_00 24:52

So do you think the traditional pathway of recruitment in our industry, how recruitment's typically addressed, either through you know, the firm that are doing it themselves or engaging a traditional recruiter, does it lean into that philosophy, or do we end up in trouble more often than not because we skip that, you know, we reverse that philosophy? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 25:17

We it's it's wrong. It's uh we it's it's it's you know, firstly, from a recruitment agency point of view, they're it's it's just very expensive, number one, and and and number two is they don't get you uh the right person. Often it's not their fault, it's just that they don't know your teams, you don't have a team structure, so you're just asking them to go find this superstar, and they're very hard to find superstars. Um, whereas when you have a team structure in place, so it's a bit like playing a soccer game. So if you're recruiting for the different positions and you know you've got to recruit for the goalie, you know that you know what kind of personality you need for that goalie. And if you're recruiting for the winger, you know, that person has to got to run fast. And you know, so so when it's very defined like that, it's a lot easier to recruit. But when you when a coach says to you just just hide just find me 11 players to get on the field, then there's a really high chance that they're in the wrong, they're wrong, the wrong person in the wrong in the wrong position, right? Yeah, and and and if you don't define those positions on that on that team, then you're gonna get the recruitment wrong. So it's not the recruitment which is the problem, it's that you don't have a blueprint of the right structure of your teams that you're after. Once you have that structure in place, it's a lot clearer what person you need for what position on that team. And then you just go out and you find that position, and it's a lot easier. And and that's that's why the way we do it is is I mean it you don't always get it right, okay, because we're we're humans, and uh humans are you know complicated things, uh um personalities, but you minimize the risks, you minimize it by a lot, you know.

The Unicorn Trap And Team Play

SPEAKER_00 27:12

Yeah, so I a real life experience of that over the weekend. I saw someone's LinkedIn post saying that they were looking for a senior accountant for their firm. And this firm would be considered in the Australian market a forward-thinking firm, you know, quite quite loud in terms of their um their contribution to the the industry and being innovative, etc. And I I commented, um, you should talk to Danny Bray, who is the head of our recruitment at Wise Talent. And uh this person commented back pretty quickly and said, uh, no need. We were we got 125 applications for the role, and we found our unicorn. Um, and I just found that interesting. And I I don't know the context of how she was viewing her unicorn, but it made me think you live wrench free in my head, and it made me think so many firm owners are looking for the unicorns, they're looking for the superstars, and it's it's a trap, isn't it? Like yeah, you you can't go after unicorns and superstars because it's so it's too hard. So could you just comment on that?

SPEAKER_01 28:25

Yes, and and the best example I can use is um you know, you're a I'll I'll use the soccer team example again, and you're the coach of the soccer team, but you don't have any positions, so you're looking for that superstar that can do everything. But there's a saying that a team of champions will never be a championship team. And now a championship team is everybody's got the right uh roles in in in in the team, and you bring complementary skills together. So what you get is the the one plus one is is is is is is five. So the you know the the outcome is bigger than the sum of its parts, right? But when you recruit the way you've just said it, you're looking for a team of champions, okay. And yes, you you might do okay, but you you have to pay a lot more for that, they're under a lot of pressure because a lot of people, everybody's after that, and uh and you don't necessarily produce the right outcomes from it because they're not working together, they're working individually, right? And they're not working as a team. If you get a team working together with complementary skills, the outcome is far, far, far greater than you know, a team of champions working on their own. Um, so so that's the that's the context of it. So but most people go out there and they they're looking for that unicorn because they don't understand that they've got to build this team structure. So if you're a coach of a soccer team, you would just say, let's just get 11 people together and get out on the field, right? Well, I guarantee you that if you run your soccer team that way, compared to you know, someone's coaching their team and that everybody is the best in their position and they work together as a team, they're gonna beat your team, no matter how many, no matter even if you've got 11 unicorns on the on the team. Yeah, the outcome won't you won't win this this this contest. So it's it's simply that. Work out your team structure, and then you're gonna have someone that's got good interpersonal skills, good communication skills, they're the ones that should be um talking, um managing the client. And then behind them, there are a production person that just likes to get production done, you know. And when they work together, you know, one plus one is five. Brilliantly, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:06

So to wrap up, with your let's call it 30, 30, maybe 40 years of experience in hiring and recruiting team members for your businesses. Uh if we've sat a firm owner in front of you who's you know really looking to become a master recruiter themselves and and find great people for their roles, what what two or three pieces of advice or wisdom do you want to impart with them? Like what are what do you need them to know and and to practice on to get this hiring game right?

Key Takeaways And How To Engage

SPEAKER_01 31:44

Well, the first thing is you you you're not hiring, you're building a team. Right. So if you're hiring, then you're gonna get it wrong because you you you know, if you want to shoot a bear, you've got to know what a bear looks like. You don't know what a bear looks like. So you're just going out there and you know, hiring. So you've got to start off with your ideal team structure, and and then it becomes a lot clearer and a lot easier, the different positions on that team. You can go out there and hire the the right person for that per that that that team, that that um position. And and the the recruitment process is different for those different positions. So if it's a client manager, you know, the one that deals with the clients, the testing you've got to put them through, it's it's all around interpersonal skills, communication skills, um, you know, likability. Um, because we you know, like it or not, we we're in the business of people. And uh, and then you're when you're dealing with people, you the clients have to like the person, all right? And then um so the recruitment process is different for that personality, and then the production manager is completely different again because they don't need skills to talk to clients and be friendly and all this kind of stuff, they just need to know how to do the work, and they know they need to manage uh a few people underneath their team as well. So you so the recruitment process for that is different again. And then if you're looking for an accountant who sits and just does the work, you know, it's it's just technical recruitment, just you know, go through, ask questions about hey, whether they can do this, this, this, and this. And if they can, then you know, they're they're hired. Um and and often there's lots of tests for that, you know, and and but that's the wrong test for someone that's a client manager, you know, and it's more about you know communication skills and likability and relating to the clients, and and so that's a different test for that. So um, so if you firstly you've got to understand the team structure, and then you can apply the right testing, the test the tests for that position, um, in order to get it right. Brilliant.

SPEAKER_00 34:14

And thank you. As always. And pleasure, yeah. It's a it's a very interesting and noisy space at the moment, uh, as the talent war continues, and um really appreciate you cutting through the noise on that. Um the the takeaways from that for me are you know team structure is paramount. Having having the understanding, the knowledge and the confidence around your team structure is is crucial. Without it, you're hiring in the dark. Um AI is not gonna kill us, it will make us more efficient, and we need to fill the capacity with better work and more relationship building and more of the same work if we want to. Uh, and uh yeah, the the how we approach recruitment is is very much uh we are not recruiters, you know. We as firm owners, we are not recruiters, nor should we try and be recruiters, we're leaders, and we should leave the recruitment to you know have people who know how to do it for our industry properly assist us.

SPEAKER_01 35:26

We're actually team builders, we're building a team, and uh and then as long as you're clear about the position, then you can get a recruiter to recruit that position for you. But if you're not clear about your team, then you know no recruiter can can get the right person.

SPEAKER_00 35:41

I love that. I think that's the takeaway from us today is you're not hiring, you're building a team. And that's how you gotta look at it. So thank you. Alright, no problem. Thanks for tuning in to this episode of The Wise Way. If today's episode sparked an idea or helped you see things differently, please don't forget to leave us a review. And if you haven't subscribed to the podcast on your favourite platform yet, please go ahead and do that as well. Let's continue the conversation here through YouTube or any other social platforms that you can find us on. And just remember, if you're not a subscriber of our weekly Friday tip newsletter, you can get that to your inbox every week going forward. Whether you're starting out or scaling up, you don't have to do it alone. Let's build a business that works for you the wise way. We'll see you in the next episode.