The Ambitious Bookkeeper Podcast

130 | Growing your business through podcasting with Shannon Weinstein

December 27, 2023 Episode 130
The Ambitious Bookkeeper Podcast
130 | Growing your business through podcasting with Shannon Weinstein
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

In this episode, I chat with Shannon Weinstein, CPA and host of Keep What You Earn podcast. Join us as we explore the power of intentional podcasting and its role in growing in your biz!

In this episode you’ll hear:

  • 3 areas you need to focus on to get on podcasts
  • using AI to research podcasts to pitch
  • how NOT to pitch
  • how to be prepared for your interviews

Resources mentioned in this episode:

Meet Shannon:

Shannon is a fractional CFO for growth-minded business owners, a CPA and a teacher at heart. Her real-talk and relatable examples simplify the financial side of business so business owners like you can stop stressing and start scaling. She is the host of the IRS's least favorite podcast, Keep What You Earn, where she releases daily episodes. She is also a frequent speaker in business mentorship communities and masterminds.

Connect with Shannon:

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💼 LinkedIn:

🌐 Website:

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I think I show up more confidently because I know where the host is at. And I also know, I'm not a mother myself, but this is the analogy I'd come up with where it's like, you see another mom, you kind of look at each other like that, like Katniss Everdeen, like, hey, I see you, I feel you, I get you. I feel like I can show up to a podcast and be like, I'm gonna make this really easy for you. Like, we can bounce off each other, have a conversation. it just kind of gives the host a little peace of mind to know they can just show up and that gives them a positive experience. So I think that's what you want to aim for. Hey Shannon, how are you? Welcome to the Ambitious Bookkeeper podcast. Thank you so much for having me, Serena. I'm so excited to be here and I'm doing well. Thanks. How are you? I'm doing great. I'm super excited for this conversation. You reached out a while back and we finally got our schedules lined up. We both had probably stuff happening and had to reschedule a couple of times, but I'm super excited for this podcast to air because I think it's very timely. And I mean, it's always going to be timely, but I'm especially excited because we're going to talk about podcasting as a way to get clients. So before we dive in, in case my listeners don't know who you are, can you please talk about what you have going on and all of the things? Absolutely. I'm a former big four manager turned, consultant turned corporate director who just had it with basically billable time utilization and all those other things that trigger us, timesheets. And I just said, you know what? I'm going to go do my own thing, my own way. I'm going to prove that it works. And one of my founding pillars was I never want, especially a woman, but I never want an employee to feel like they have to choose between building a life and building a career when they work for me because I was so tired of seeing people struggle with that. So I went off and started my own fractional CFO practice. It evolved into fractional CFO from, you know, basic books and taxes. And, I started that in 2019 and I've been building it ever since quit my job in 2021 completely. And now I live with my husband in Costa Rica, bouncing between the States and there with a location agnostic lifestyle in our own business. So it's awesome. That is amazing. And does your husband work for you too or work in the business or is, is he doing his own thing? So he was running a basement waterproofing and foundation repair company. And as of last month, he officially sold and exited. So he's around the house, but he is, he's helping me a ton. He's actually got, he's got that entrepreneur itch though. He's forever an entrepreneur. He started that when he was 22, he's now 39. So he is really honing in on like, how can I now serve? How can I grow? And he's paying more attention to what I'm doing. And so he's definitely getting involved with the business, but I know that he's going to start his own thing soon. Yeah, that's exciting. Awesome. Okay. So I didn't realize that you started in 2019. I guess sometimes you like, and this could be a thing for other people too, but you see things online, right? It's like the highlight reel. And you, you assume that like, You know, especially for people that are visible like you and maybe me, we're on social media, putting out a lot of content, we're doing podcasting and stuff. And it can be kind of interesting to find out when, people haven't been at it that long. And you're like, Oh, but you've achieved all this success. So, it's very interesting. It's like, Oh, you, you just never really know the real story. Until you talk to somebody, so. But yeah, so has podcasting been one of the major drivers for you growing, your accounting business? Yeah. In two forms. One, I host a podcast. So there's that, and that's been a massive way to grow a brand. It's been so great, but I understand not all accountants, bookkeepers, and CFOs are like really excited to get behind the mic every day and put out content and do all this. So yes, guesting on podcasts though is my number one driver of CFO services. It's my number one lead generation tool. And the way that I book the most like high paying clients, and I just Fully believe that this is one of the best ways to market your business, especially if you're dealing in the currency of trust, which I believe we are as trusted professionals and advisors right now, especially I could go on the whole thing on AI, but like, this is when we should be leaning into gaining trust from our clients and becoming that advisor that they can't live without in their business. And that is, this is how you do it. This is how you start that relationship, in my opinion. Yeah, absolutely. I've noticed the same thing. I, I, I wouldn't say I hit it really hard this year, but I did ramp up my efforts for getting on other podcasts and building relationships with people who had connections to podcasts. Cause there's a whole, I'm sure we're going to talk about it, but there's multiple strategies that kind of feed into that. And it just kind of so happened that I had done a bunch of podcast interviews over the course of a couple of months. I'm like looking at, I have this like little piece of paper of like all the connections and podcast interviews and other publicity type things that I have had since July. And I would say August and October were the most packed with different visibility things of like when it actually occurred, like when the interview actually happened, not when it aired. Yeah, Because there's that too. You never really know when your stuff is going to air. That's kind of at the discretion of whoever you're doing the thing for, right? But it happened to where, like, a bunch of stuff had been produced, I guess, in October and then it all went live in November and I got a lot of inquiries all at once. yeah, same thing. I, I go, I go all in on a couple of different interviews or outlets. Like, I want to get into this too, which is I follow a kind of an interesting route in that I pay for podcast guesting. I've approached guests and offered to pay to be on their show, or sometimes these bigger shows will command a payment to be on the show. If you're. Not really commanding, like, you know what I mean? Like, if you're not invited, they'll ask you to pay to be on the show, which I think is totally fair. It's no different than paying for a Super Bowl ad, right? It's like, you want to be in this stage, like, you have to pay up to play, and I've done that before, and I've known when those things would hit, and I've, I've kind of planned accordingly, like, okay, guys, the episode's gonna go live sometime in the next two weeks, like, Buckle up, make sure our lead magnet stuff is good to go, make sure it's all good cause I know that I kind of treat every episode when they go live as like, okay, there's going to be like a line of people out the door at our cash register at some point, we got to be ready for it just in case But it's, it's so useful to know that, like you said, you don't really know when the go live date is. Personally, I think if you guessed, you should ask, do you have an approximate lead time idea of when this might go live? Personally, with my show, I can tell the guest on the day we record exactly what day it's going to go live. Like, we're, we're scheduled, like, right out. Not everybody is, but if you ask, at least it sets the expectation so you're not just kind of sitting there and you forget about it. Yeah. Yeah. I have absolutely forgotten about a few of them and it's like, Oh okay. So that's out there. I could have planned a little better. yeah, and also another little tip, ask for the audio and video file. Just, there's no harm in asking because it's good content for you. You can splice it up in Opus Pro. You could then create your own content based on the interview and then you're minimizing the time it takes you to make content to do the long game, but also you're building trust on the short game with the episode. I would always say if you're going to guest on a show, you should always ask for everything. Ask for all the assets, ask for the audio video, ask for the go live date. What's the worst thing they're gonna do? Tell you, I don't know when we're going live. No, you can't have the audio video. It's like, well, then you're just back to the place where you, where you were if you didn't ask. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I never really considered doing that, especially when if you're newer to guesting on other people's shows. Like, you may just be really wrapped up in like, oh my gosh, I'm going to be on this show. And so you're really going to be focusing on like what you're trying to say. You're not really thinking about like all these other logistical things, but I love that you're bringing it up because it gives you something to sort of Maybe break the ice before you start talking and so that your nerves are a little more calm. Yeah, Right? Like so that's a great, that's a great tip. Ask for all the assets and ask for the go live date. I love that. I'm like you. I have my podcast content scheduled out. Like, as soon as, for instance, you book on And when you book on my podcast, it goes through Acuity. I have a Zap that creates an Asana task, tells me that somebody's scheduled, and then they're in my, like, workflow to then, like, Figure out when that episode's gonna go live and I I love doing interviews or having interviews on the podcast because then I don't have to think about what content I'm gonna create. Yeah, it goes both ways, right? It's like you're hosting somebody, but you're like, oh, thank God they're bringing the macaroni. Like, I don't have to cook. Like they're gonna come and they're gonna. deliver something and I just have to really have a conversation naturally. I love my guest episodes. I really do. They're so much fun. And we can nerd out on Asana anytime because we manage our whole podcast in Asana as well. So yeah. Asana and Notion. So like the podcast show notes and all of that, like in the main, I have like a calendar view of when the episodes go live, that's all in Notion, and then like the actual task workflow is all in Asana and yeah, it's, a pretty robust thing that took, you know, years to build it to this point, but. We've been doing this since 2021. But I've been guesting on shows since 2019. It's how I got some of my first clients even. And so if you're starting a business, it's a great way to get out there to build content rapidly and to just build trust with your ideal client. But I think, and you teach this a lot too, Serena, but like, I think that you're gonna get more, like, one thing I don't really advise is getting on podcasts for the sake of getting on podcasts beyond your first three. Like, get the nerves out, do what you gotta do. It's like your first few dates where you're like, all right, let me just work out the nerves, like, low stakes, and like, not get paranoid, but I would not go to, like, a high level show in your first show. Like I would get some nerves out and figure out the rhythm and like what you're going to say and work out how you're going to go through your talking points, you know, maybe on a smaller stage. But if you're growing, I would say you want to get really intentional about like, who's my ideal client? What are they listening to? And try to get on those shows or get connected to those people to your point about networking, because You're going to be able to get better results faster if you're more intentional about the shows you want to get on and you're like continuing to ask and pitch those shows as opposed to trying to spread yourself like across every show and pitch everybody with a general pitch. You're going to catch no fish in that giant lake versus a smaller pond that's more concentrated. You're going to catch plenty because there's going to be less people going after that one area. So I would definitely get the intention about pitching. about preparing for the show and about promoting the show to my point earlier. Like, you always have to be thinking about these things all at the same time. It's not just, you know, putting it out there and saying, I want to be on more shows. Who knows a show? Like, be specific and try to find your ideal client. Yeah, I 100 percent agree with that. And to your point of like, yeah, the first three doesn't really matter. You need to figure out what kind of things you're going to be talking about. If you've never been behind a microphone, it's nerve wracking. I remember my very first podcast interview was well before I started my podcast. So I was super awkward. I can remember. Going into my walk in closet with my iPhone and like corded headphones because we were doing the interview on Skype and I was like sitting there sweating buckets and I had like my notebook there with all these bullet points I wanted to talk about. And I don't know what I really was expecting. I guess, like, here's one thing we can honestly jam on, especially for someone who's never interviewed on a podcast. Every podcast is different in how they run. Like, when I brought you on before we hit record, I, like, let you know, like, I'm gonna intro it. And then I'll let you kind of talk about yourself, and I give you like a lay of the land. And you're a podcaster, so you, I know you're not nervous, but for another interviewee that maybe has never been on the podcast, I take that a little slow. not all hosts do that kind of stuff. Yeah. No, I always ask, like, is this your first time? Yeah. I always ask, like, how experienced are you? Well, I also have in my, like, intake process, not to go too down, like, the podcast host route, but we also have, like, an intake process where I kind of know if they're a veteran or a newbie based on how they answer the questions in my intake questionnaire, so I know, like, What kind of experience to put them through and how much to hold their hand to your point. So we know like, okay, this person isn't as experienced, but they have a lot of good value to share. So let's have them on the show based on value versus somebody who's just a veteran. And I'm like, you know what? I think this will be a good conversation. So I'm going to have them on. Sometimes I'll have people on and I'm just like, I know this one's going to be easy. Like, this is going to be a really good conversation because it's going to be comfortable and there's going to be a confident flow of dialogue. It's going to be good value for the listener because that's what we're in service of, you guys, the listeners. So every host, and this goes back to when you're pitching, every host is in service of their listener. So if you, if you want to get on a show, show that you have that common mission to serve their listener. It is not about them. It is not about you. It is not about I. If there's a lot of I's in a pitch, I, I tune out. It's your listeners may appreciate some perspective on this. Your listeners may want to hear a unique take on what you talked about on episode 383 about this. Oh, okay. That perked my ears up because that's who we're in service of collectively. So if you can make it about the listener as much as possible and how you're going to serve them, that's what podcast hosts want, because we have no shortage of content and ideas usually. I mean, that's why we have the show. We kind of created our machine to make it. But what we really want is perspective and we what we really want is value that our listeners will actually like come back for more of and it will satisfy them. So we're saying, hey. We're going to let you come use our kitchen to cook something. You better make our customers happy. We want them coming back. So that's a whole thing that you have to approach it with. Cause I think a lot of people are pitching, like, here's why I'm the best. Here's why I know my, you know what, here's why I can talk about these things. And I'm like. I believe you, but how will you serve my listeners? I think that's a huge thing that gets overstepped a lot. Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, I have so many thoughts running through my head of like experiences of having other people on my podcast, but we're not going to go down the hosting rabbit hole right now. I know fellow hosts. We just relate to that stuff, but, but, it's valuable to your listeners too, because guys understand that, like, that's what you're pitching are people who like, and we'll say it, we'll tell you like from behind the curtain, like, this is what we're looking for. This is what we value. Right. And that's super important for when you're pitching that you understand where the host is coming from. yeah, absolutely. So you mentioned three kind of buckets of, or areas of things that you need to focus on when you're going to be podcasting. One of them was pitching. Well, I'm gonna let you say it, cause now I can't remember. Pitching, preparing, and promoting. So pitching is like picking the show you want, asking to be on, and doing all the things necessary to position yourself well to be on the show. And that means like, And then that gets into like preparing as you're talking points, knowing what you're going to talk about, what message you want the audience member to walk away with, that is crucial. It's not about like reactively showing up and just like going with the flow. I mean after, for me, after 450 of my own episodes and 80 podcasts I've been on. Yes, I kind of just show up now because I know my talking points and I know my different messages I can talk through. But when you're first starting out, you want to have some structure to it and go, all right, I'm going to cover these five talking points or these three tips or these other things. Like what I just did there with my little framework of preparing, what was it? Pitching, preparing, and promoting. I'm like, give them something that they can react to and go, oh yeah, tell me about each of these buckets. So it's organized and it's not just random. It also keeps the audience. Going, oh, there's more. Like, I know there's a third chapter. So, so again, pitching, preparing, promoting. People skip the promoting part. They sign off the dang interview and they don't do anything about it. They don't follow up. Like I said, ask for the audio video, use it in your content, but then you should be promoting the show using your own platforms. You should be cross publishing the content. You should be pointing your audience that you have toward that episode and supporting the podcast host. You know why? They may have you on again. They'll start recommending people to you. You've just expanded your network with that host who also has a massive network of people they've interviewed. They're more likely to connect to you and you'll be memorable to them if you support their show. Leave them a review. Leave them a LinkedIn recommendation. Make it known that you had a great time. Send them a thank you note. That's all part of the process, guys. Like, that's gonna help instill the relationship. It's like a business meeting. But like, they're not there just to serve you. They're there to serve the audience. Which you are there doing with them, and thank them for their time, thank them for the opportunity. Because you get to promote yourself on the show. And it's also being ready with a lead magnet, or a link, or something to send people to if they want to learn more from you. I can't tell you how many times people have come on the show with zero preparation done on where they want to send people after the show. and I, say bluntly With all due respect, what do you want out of the show? Like, I want leads. Well, where are we going to put them? Because they're going to come to my show on Apple or Spotify. How are they going to find you? How are they going to connect with you? How are they going to take the next step with you? You have to be prepared with a website link ideally something very specific, like a lead magnet that solves a problem that you talked about in the show and connects really well to the theme. So let them, like, lead in with the content and then talk about the thing that you have that will help take them one step further in taking action on that thing. That's the best formula for it. I would not advise, like gone forever on this, but I would not advise saying like book a call. Like, That was going to be my question. no, I, and I, I have an opinion on this. People will do this. If it's just book a call, I go, you're asking for the ring. Hold on, hold on. We should do a micro commitment. Like, that's a bigger commitment of, like, book a call. Nobody wants to get on a dang Zoom call with a stranger. We've, we have, we were over that in 2021, you guys. Like, we were tired of that stuff after, like, one year of COVID. I'm not in the mood to get on a Zoom call with even people I like, let alone strangers. That's me personally. If your call to action is book a call, I say that's probably the next step after what should be the call to action, which is download my lead magnet, get on my email list, follow me on social if you've got nothing else, or just linking to a post, like, linking to anything that's specific enough that will take them one step further in what you've just taught them. Oh, I like the idea of linking to a post. I never thought about that, but I do have lots of blogs that are very useful for business owners. It's Exactly. Blogs. Social, YouTube videos, whatever it is. It's like, I really go into depth on this for an hour in this YouTube video. Go check it out. And it might just be like a 20 minute episode that gives them a taste of it. Then they go watch the whole video. And next thing you know, you're in their search engine optimization. So genius. I'm learning a lot right now. That's the side benefit of hosting a podcast. Yeah. I'm a CPA closet marketer. I love it. Yeah. And I love marketing too. That's why I'm like super fascinating. And just, you always have to have an open mind to like different ideas because like, I feel like I'm pretty well exposed to lots of different ideas and here I am still learning stuff. So it's like, that's the other thing is like, have a, you know, be a student at heart or whatever forever. Of course, yeah, lifelong learner, we call it. That's one of my core values, actually. Okay. So you already talked a lot about promoting. And we talked a little bit about pitching and preparing, but how would you suggest, because I know a lot of people might start thinking, okay, well, I need to start pitching podcasts. Well, how am I going to pitch them? So you kind of have to back up to preparing what you're going to talk about, right? Yeah, I would say you actually work your way backwards in this process to get clarity on the pitching. So like, it's like, what do I want? It's, it's begin with the end in mind, right? So what do you want out of this opportunity? Who do you want to be listening to this? And then you kind of extract back into, then what do I have to do on the front end to make sure that is my outcome. So, the promoting is one thing, the preparing is, well, what is the topic I should talk about so that this lead magnet I want to plug in makes sense. So, I'll use an example from our world to make this like kind of tile together. So, let's say I am working in you know, would you say your average listener is a bookkeeper, fractional CFO? Give me an example. I would say mostly book, bookkeepers or, um, like accountants. let's say you want to build your bookkeeping business and you say, okay, I want more bookkeeping clients in. The health and wellness industry, let's say. Okay. So here's what we'll do. We're going to do a lead magnet that is like the five mistakes you're making in your fitness business with your finances, whatever it is, right? Then it's going to be, okay, this is the five mistakes, or this is going to be my PDF or my mini course, or whatever it is, my freebie that I'm going to plop in on the end of the podcast. What am I going to do in the podcast? I'm going to give three of those. And I'm gonna say, if you want the other two, download my thing. So that now it's going to go back into one of the five tips. What are three you can talk about? And here's why I say that if you go through five, too long, too long. Talk at length in a shorter episode about two or three of them and say, my full list is available here on this URL. And another pro tip, get a domain that's really easy to say out loud. Because if you say, go to serenashoop. com slash ambitiousbookkeeper slash freebie slash dot da da da da da, no way in hell I wrote that down, I'm driving. Like, for me, it's gototaxtoolkit. com or whatever it is, right? Like, I have a, like, businestaxtoolkit. com. I even have a like, I have, I have, like, the most random URLs because I'm just like, go to augustarule. com, download my free toolkit on this. And it's like, cool, I'll remember that. So anyway, backing into preparing, you have your two or three talking points on why you can be there to help them and go into depth about it and answer questions on it with the host. Then extract back into, okay. What stages will make the most sense for me to do this on. And that's the pitching part. People will start with who will take me and then they will react and go through the whole process. I think the best work is done when you work backward. And for me, I used to work with, I actually did accounting for fitness businesses back in the day. That was my first iteration of financial solutions with my first company name. So I would go on fitness podcasts. So it sounds funny, but like, guys, don't go on podcasts you listen to. Like, don't pitch the shows you're listening to. Don't pitch the accounting podcasts. Like, don't, it's not going to do you very well if your goal is leads. Cause you're not going to have like other accountants aren't going to hire you unless you're looking for that and you're looking to partner, right? That's different. But if you're looking for leads, go where they're listening. So you go on the fitness podcasts, right? I went on Fitness Career Mastery was one of my first shows. I love, love Barry and Shay. And what we did was, I did a whole episode on the mistakes you're making in your fitness business, setting it up properly, and I strategically pitched, so like right now, and again, I don't know when Serena's going to air this, but right now we're in December 2023. This is when you get on shows and they air January, February. Ah, when are people actually paying attention to us? January and February.. When do people care about accountants? January, February, March, April. So this is the time, right? Like December and January. Pitch those shows. Get them booked, get them recorded. And next thing you know, they're going to sprinkle out in like, February, March, April. And that's when people are listening to your message. So you have to be really intentional about that. So I said, okay, I'm going to get on fitness shows. I'm going to talk about these things. And I would pitch based on the value. I would go into each show. I would listen to them. And here's where AI kicks in now in 2024. Is now. You could actually have AI scrape and do a summary of the podcast episodes, like go listen to these three episodes or go read the transcripts for these three episodes or go read the blog associated with this podcast, tell me what it's about and, you know, show me any gaps. Like, have they talked about taxes? Have they talked about bookkeeping? Have they talked about setting up a business? Have they talked about keeping your finances separate? No. Okay. Then I'm going to pitch on that. I'm going to say, Hey, I want to talk about why it's important to keep your finances separated. Why this, why that are my top three tips for X. And you want to extract back into emailing the host. Or reaching out to them somehow and putting out your topics and saying, I would love to share with your audience some insights on one of these topics. And this gets into another tip, provide 2 or 3 topics. Do not, and maybe Serena will nod when I say this, if I say, what would you like to talk about? The only wrong answer is, I don't know, whatever you want to talk about. That is the endless, what do you want for dinner, conversation I do not want to have. Like, we are too busy. Serena's laughing. We, we are too busy to like, like, no, no, no. Tell me what you want to talk about because I don't have time for, like, to do your Preparing for you. Like, I want to know what you have to bring to the table. I'm not going to cook this for you. Tell me what you're bringing to the potluck. So I, that's the thing, is I just don't want the, the, you don't want to make the host do work. You want to give them all the work done for them and it's going to be such an easier yes. And I'll just stop there. Yeah, I, I 100 percent agree. That, yeah, that is the worst thing you could do is be like, I don't know what to talk about. And it's like, well, then we are not coming on the podcast. Yeah, then like, what would you, what is the point of you being on the show, with all due respect, like, what is your goal for the show? You really want to be prepared. So I'm guessing that When you originally started this process, were you this thought out with it or have you kind of pieced it together with hindsight of like, everything would have moved a lot quicker if I had done it in this way. Yeah, and going back to your point earlier about, like, how you may have been surprised that I've been in the game for, like, four years, not even, is because I take fast action when I see something's wrong. So I go Oops, hiccup, fix that. Like, I will, I will go duct tape every poll in the process as soon as I see it. So, that's the rapid action taking side of it, when I think really serves you well as a podcast host, is I would see, okay, that episode, like, that interview didn't feel great. Why? Like, why did I feel like that wasn't good? Oh, I didn't exactly vet that person. like, they were terrible on video. Like, and it happens, guys. Like, it totally happens. It's normal. Not everybody is, like, really good on camera or on audio. And I was like, that was really, really hard to, like, get out of them. They would give, like, one word answers like they were in a deposition. You know what I mean? And I would go, I recently had that experience. It's like, did you enjoy it? Yes. And then it's just deadpan and you're like, wow, you give me no energy to bounce off of here. So as an interviewer, I think over time I developed this kind of like, to be able to read when that was happening and to like open that up and to really like prepare the guest better, we started developing these like pre Emails that go out that like, here's some tips to ensure a successful interview. And then here are some ways to make the most out of your experience that keep what you earn. And I think that really built a, we were actually intentional about building a red carpet guest experience. We said, let's build a guest experience where people talk to us and they go, I've never had an experience on a podcast where I felt so held through the whole process. Like you guys made sure I was prepared. You guys made sure I had all my stuff together. And that's just me and like my Type A Enneagram 3 coming out and saying, if you won't do it, I will, like, I will make sure you're prepared. Because I want to ensure success for everybody, I really do, but at the end of the day, I need them to know the expectations. Like, I think it's just like your team, you have to be able to set expectations of this is what we expect of you if you're coming on the show, and this is what you have to work on. I'm also not afraid, by the way, to say, you know, a few minutes into the interview, hey, I want to restart, but I want to reboot the energy a little bit. And like, it's all about approaching it from the most positive place and coaching them. It's like, you're not doing a crappy job. I want to talk to you through like, hey, this is, I think we need to bring more energy to this. Think of it like you're talking to a bunch of kids. Like, you really have to like, get them energized and get them to listen. Or I'll, I'll use different exercises through it. I think that, To your question, it does come with time, but it's like, you have to hit every one of those little roadblocks to know how to navigate it. did you find yourself like 10 times better at being a podcast guest once you started your own podcast? I think so. Again, I'm not like, I'm not over here, like brushing my shoulder off saying I'm really good at this. There's still room for improvement, but I think I show up more confidently because I know where the host is at. And I also know, I'm not a mother myself, but this is the analogy I'd come up with where it's like, you see another mom, you kind of look at each other like that, like Katniss Everdeen, like, hey, I see you, I feel you, I get you. I feel like I can show up to a podcast and be like, I'm gonna make this really easy for you. Like, we can bounce off each other, have a conversation. it just kind of gives the host a little peace of mind to know they can just show up and that gives them a positive experience. So I think that's what you want to aim for. for sure. So, now pitching, do you have something specific that like, whatever you want to share Yeah, I do. that is going to help? I have a very controversial opinion on agencies. I have a very controversial opinion on this and I have been told I'm wrong and I will admit if I'm wrong in circumstances, but as a host, I look at if the agency is pitching you, it's like your mom making you a haircut appointment. I you need an agency to pitch you, then it's like your mom making you a haircut appointment. For me, it feels like You couldn't be bothered to email me. You don't even know what show you're going to be on. You won't even know who I am when you show up. You will probably have done no preparation because you're putting no effort in on the front end to be intentional about the show that you want to be on. Now, I understand when you're early on and you really want to get your word out, like when you're on a book tour, you're on a movie tour, you're on whatever, you need people to get pressed for you. I'm not knocking that. Go for it. But if you're early stage. And you're like really clear that like, I want to be on Keep What You Earn. You're far less likely to get on my show using an agency because the agency pitches, and I shouldn't just say any agency, an agency that uses templated pitch because it is so plastic was what I call it. I go, it's so like carbon copy. I've even gotten ones that have brackets that go insert show name here. Like they didn't even bother to fill in my show name. Oh yeah. And I'm like, you could try a little harder, like to, you know what I mean, to like put a pitch together. I, I would much rather have a pitch that showcases that you are really good on audio video and that you have a lot to share and that you have an example of a show you've been on. I could care less about your accolades, the alphabet soup after your name, all the letters. I don't care about your credentials. I mean, they're great, but I really care more about the experience you're going to have with my listeners. So the more you can showcase that, the better. And the agency tends to lean more into the hard skills. Like this person's an accomplished best selling author and this, that, and the other thing. And I'm like, cool. Are they fun to talk to? Like It's like dating. I Are my listeners going to enjoy time with this person? Or are they going to be dry and like, yes ma'am, no ma'am. And that's it. You know, I care more about that. And I think a lot of hosts do these days with making it more conversational. So, I mean, For me and for my listeners, I think it's more valuable to have a really quality conversation and good value. And that's what I want to see showcased. So I have that controversial opinion on agency pitches because I've just gotten so many of them that they're kind of white noise at this point. And I almost delete them. I will reach out to the guests personally and say, Hey, an agency pitched you, but I don't want to deal with them. Can you just apply? Like, you know, there's a website. I have my website with a guest application form. Anybody can click that and submit. So I'm like, you don't need to have people email me, it's fine. But I realize that I'm the exception, not the norm, probably, in that regard. Yeah, I feel the same about agencies and I, that was a question that I had because I know with us, like you didn't have anyone else pitch you. I knew that from my experience, but we've already been connected. So it's not like in a different situation if it was a host that you've never been connected to and that's what kind of, why I said earlier, like you're not just pitching. Podcasts that you want to be on. You're strategically putting yourself in the room with people who are connected to podcast hosts or asking for introductions to certain podcast hosts if you have a mutual connection. And, there's just so many things that you can do, that can get you on shows without it even feeling like you're pitching. Yeah, and it's, you get invited, like, you meet people out at events and stuff, and like, they find out you have a podcast, or you find out that they want to be on more shows, and you have a really good conversation with them in real life. And you find out they're a host, like, it's so easy to be like, Hey, I heard you have a show. Oh yeah, you should come on. Like, it becomes our favorite, like, come over for a glass of wine. Like, that's the podcasters come over for a glass of wine is come on the show sometime, let's chat. Because it's content and it's, it's good people. It really is, is so much easier if you're just purely networking and connecting. And then those invitations happen naturally. Like I said, you can pitch, you should pitch, but I think you have to put the effort into like, show you're actually listening or show that you follow their content and engage with them, so that you're forming a real relationship with them. I think that you're missing a whole chunk of the value of being on shows if you're not trying to develop some type of relationship with the host. Like, to some extent, letting them know who you are, what you do, and how you can serve their audience together and possibly strategically partner in the future, as opposed to this transactional, hey, you want me on your show? Yeah, come on. And like, you do no outside work from that. I think you're missing an opportunity most times. yeah, absolutely. Most of the podcasts that I did in October I was invited on, actually. I think all of them. One of them I was invited on because I was strategic about certain things. Yes, it was still an invite. I didn't pitch. And then someone else in my network was like, Oh, you were on his podcast. I thought he only had like his students and, certain people on his podcast. And I was like, well, no, we have a mutual connection. And I posted on my stories that I was open to interviewing on podcasts about these topics. And he replied to my story and invited me on. that's, that's a great point too, Serena. Like, put it out there that you want to be on shows, but like, don't just be like, I want to get on more shows. Like, be on, I want to talk about A, B, or C on a podcast. Does anyone know anybody? Like, put it out on LinkedIn. I actually have a habit I do every week in my Asana board. No, another shout out to Asana. I have an Asana task every week for myself to ask for something on LinkedIn. And by ask for something, I mean, who do I need to know? It's like, I'm looking for X, who do I need to know? And it's, I'm not asking them for the thing. I said, who do I need to know? So now I'm going to connect with those people and just talk to them. And I'm not going to ask for anything. They're going to know that they got, they just got tagged in me saying, I want to be on more podcasts. Who knows a really good host. And then they're going to tag their friends who host shows. I'm going to connect with them, but I'm not going to ask to be on the show. They already know. So it's a little bit easier to like put out your intentions. It's really not that different than online dating if anyone's been in that circuit before. It's kind of like just putting out like, I'm looking for this, who do I need to know? And it's just really playing it, making it super clear what you want. And I love that you did that and said, I want to talk about this, that, and the other on a show who knows somebody who needs this content. It's a slam dunk. Totally. Yeah, and it makes it so much easier to do that when you have a specific audience that you're trying to speak in front of and, or a specific industry because Literally, we're all going to be talking about the same thing, but you're going to use examples for that industry. Yes. So it's like, there's not that many topics that bookkeepers can talk about. it all translates to any industry, but you just use the industry lingo or whatever to, and examples, analogies to tie it back to them. And so they feel like it's very customized to their audience. 100%. And I'm going to give you a couple other really tactical tips. So for those listening, you need to get on ListenNotes. A S A P. Are you on ListenNotes, Serena? Do you know ListenNotes? No. Oh, buckle up. Okay. So Listen Notes is a podcast search engine. It's phenomenal because you go on there. It's free. You can claim your podcast if you're a host. So go claim that thing today. And I claimed mine. You get a Listen Notes score and it tells you what percent of the top podcasts you are in. I think I'm in like the top 1. 5 percent or something. Like, not bragging, but I'll be like most people who are still doing podcasts are in the top 2 percent. So like most people who are putting out consistent content are up there. Now. That's great for me marketing my show, okay? But, here's when you're pitching, here's what you go do. You can go search by topic, host, guest, and show name, and hashtags. So, you can now search. Like, let's say I was going back to my health and wellness example. Find people who are hosting those shows, find influencers in the space. But here's another great tip. You probably know somebody in our space. You probably know another bookkeeper, another accountant that is doing what you're doing. Look for shows they've been on. Or, look for shows your friends have been on. Find people you know. Find like, okay, Shannon, here's a tip right now. Any of y'all could go do this. Cause this works for you. Go look up Shannon Weinstein on listen notes. Search for shows I've been on. And then say, I want to elaborate on what Shannon was talking about here. Or go to like the industry specific podcast and find somebody in your industry doing that. And then, you know, Oh, it's been, I just noticed it's been two years since you had an episode on taxes. I just noticed it's been like three years since you really dug into the finances for your podcast. You want to talk about it on the show and find a timely topic, but use that resource because you can purely search on keywords in the transcript and in the, the guest name. So it's a more comprehensive search engine than let's say Apple or Spotify. So you can really start digging into the shows that you want to be on, the host names, how to contact them, their social media, like it's all right there. That's awesome. And it's just a database of stuff. It's not like the host had to have claimed that podcast to be in that search No, they have to claim the podcast, though, to, like, for me to log in as Keep What You Earn, like, and be able to see all my staff, like, see where I rank and all that stuff. I have to, like, to unlock the ranking and all that stuff like that. I think I have to log in and create an account, but, Other people can actually claim the show, which is weird. So I think I just claimed the show and said, yeah, that's me. so I log in and it shows up as my show and then I can search shows I've been on. I actually did that. I made a list of all the shows I've been on and I went into list and I was to be like, well, what shows was I on? Cause I've been on like 70 or 80. So I went through, I was like, oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah. And then we started going through it and I said, you know what? Make a list and let's go back and ask for the audio video for the ones we didn't. So let's go back and ask them if they still have it. Or let me see if I can negotiate a re air of their episode. So now I can say, Hey, I know that, that you guys, like, I know you probably need to monetize your show. Another little trick, podcasts are expensive. So any chance a host gets to monetize without, without diluting their content with ads. So what if you said, Hey, I'd be willing to compensate you if you would re air my episode. Ooh, okay. That's a possibility. Like nothing's off the table. So if you really enjoyed that interview and you thought you came across really well, ask them for the files or ask them to re air it. Maybe they need the content and they'll re air it anyway, but there's nothing wrong with offering to compensate them like an ad to say, Hey, would you mind republishing that? There's so many things that you can do if you just have that data in front of you and you can actually. Strategically plan that out with intention. I just think it can take you so far, especially in our business. Yeah. Oh, that's such a good tip. When it comes to you, you mentioned at the top of the show that you actually pay to be on podcasts. Now, do you specifically pitch podcasts or go to podcasts that it's known that they charge or do you do what you're talking about now and say, Hey, I'd be willing to compensate you to let me on your show. No, I don't voluntarily like typically like just offer it. No, typically what I do is I have a budget in my ad budget. Like some of y'all may have Facebook ad spend or you may have social media managers or whatever that you pay for. For me, I have a stipend in my budget for paid podcast opportunities or paid speaking. Like where I have to pay to do something. So I have a budget in there. It's on my ad budget and. For whatever amount per year I have that to be able to get on shows. It's usually one to two a year big shows and I expect a really good windfall from that. So I'm really intentional about which ones. But I look for the opportunities based on connections and I look for the opportunities based on like, What I've been able to prove recently. So if I had like, this is, and this is totally, this is like so strategic, but when I pitch them, I make sure that I have, so when I look at my charitable rankings, and that's another thing you guys should look at is charitable. I look at my charitable rankings when I happen to be high up in the entrepreneurship rankings is when I strike the pitches. So I strike, I start pitching other shows when if they search me, they see that I'm in like the top 50 because then it's like, Oh yeah, no brainer. Like she's. She's fine. So like if you have a show, it's also about like timing well, how it looks in the charts right now. That's a whole nother like advanced topic. But paying to be on shows, yeah, I will look at like where they stand in the chartable rankings and I will go, okay, that's worth the audience that they have based on their social media presence, based on their download numbers. I look and look them up and listen notes. I can look them up on Libsyn. I can look them up on Spotify, all that. And I can say, okay, that's a big show. So I'm willing to pay to be on it. Some of them have been in person recorded. Some of them have been virtual. You just have to know what you're willing to do, but I would say definitely get in that game once you feel like you have completely nailed what you talk about, because you do not want to sponsor that opportunity with a lot of ums, ahs, and insecurities. You want to be showing up with full confidence and show up really well so that you can let that thing last and that that will become a timeless episode. You can re air over and over again. Yeah. Oh, I love that. Okay. So if someone is like, this just scratched the surface, I have so many more questions about how do I develop my content and how do I like, Implement those strategies. share with us what you have going on around podcasting. Totally. So, okay. so number one, you just brought this up and I want to button this up with this point that you really have to have a really strong identity of who you serve, what you do, what problems you solve, and all those basic foundational elements before you can even really start maximizing your potential with podcasting. I think you have to have that content really honed in, and this is how you can share it with a megaphone. But if the stuff you are sharing and spreading out there is not refined. Then you're going to be spreading more of just that. You want to have it really be good quality stuff that can then spread. That being said to your point, I, I am offering some help with this right now. I have a bunch of resources available. We're at a link in the show notes, my offer, which I am working on at the moment, but we have a lot of help around podcasting, because I truly believe that as fellow practitioners, like. Guys, this is a gold mine of opportunity if you know how to leverage it. So I want to help as many accounts as possible with that. And I want to make sure you're getting the support that you need. So we're going to put a link in the show notes for my resources when it comes to helping you get on more podcasts intentionally, maximizing the potential and using it to promote. Awesome. Thank you so much. And if someone is not connected with you online, where should they connect with you? And can you shout out your podcast, which we will also link in the show notes. Of course, my podcast is Keep What You Earn. And that's where you can find like everything under the key, but you are in brand is, is associated with me. But you can also find me on Instagram @ShannonKWeinstein. And I would love to chat with you there. I answer all the DMS. So, uh, let's hang out over on Instagram. Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing today. It was an amazing conversation as I knew it would be, and we'll talk to you soon. Thanks, Serena.

Introducing Shannon
Podcasting to Grow Your Firm
Getting into the Space
The Beginning of the Podcasts
Being a Host
Establishing Relationships with Guests
Using Interviews as Lead Magnets
How to Pitch a Podcast
How to Get On Podcasts
Paying to be on Podcasts
Developing your Podcast

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