Ellecia  00:07

Hey, I'm Ellecia, your non monogamous relationship coach. Welcome to the podcast where my friends and I chat about our relationships, enthusiastic non monogamy, polyamory swinging kink, and our lives. You'll get a candid peek into what makes it worth it to live life outside the box. And in case you're still wondering, nope we're not monogamous. I have the funnest guest on today. Kari Lu Cowell is a dating coach for nerds she helps people feel authentically comfortable and confident with dating so that they can find the relationships of their dreams. She works with all relationship desires, specializing in people who seek non traditional relationships llike kink, BDSM, ethical non monogamy, sugar daddy, sugar baby, more. Having dabbled in all of these things for the past two decades, Kari leads with an open heart and an open mind. And with her background in therapy and trauma informed wellness, along with her core value of play, Kari brings a unique mix of mindfulness, psychology and fun to all of her teachings. And outside of her coaching Kari loves reading, axe throwing, pole dancing, Doctor Who connecting with others, and her dog Bo. This conversation is so fantastic because we talk about not only non monogamy but like soulmates monogamous conditioning, whether or not you should start your non monogamous relationship in the beginning of your relationship or if you should build a monogamous foundation first, just so many juicy things in this conversation. I hope you guys enjoy it. There it is. Okay, Kari, Kari, Lu Cowell! Here. Hi. I am actually really excited to chat with you about non monogamy and polyamory and all the things because I've seen you talk about 'em once with mags. And I was just like, Oh, I want to talk to her. So tell me, tell me what, what does non monogamy look like in your life? Like, what kind of labels do you use? Or what kind of relationship style do you have? Are you married? Are you single? Tell me about your life?

Kari  02:30

I love this question. Because like, especially the labels one because I am a person who doesn't love labels. So if I had it my way, I would just go by carry and like all of the things that that encompasses, right? I understand that labels are very concise, and give people like a nutshell of like what you're about, right? Because if I'm just like, Well, my label is Kari people are like, Oh, I don't know what the fuck that is right? Like, I don't know you. So if I had to label myself, my pronouns would be She/They. And I am ethically non monogamous, however, that looks in whatever relationship I'm in. And that can shift and change depending on the relationship that I'm in. Currently, with my current partner who I do call my husband, he's my life partner we're not technically married, because people freak out when I call him my husband. And they're like, when did you get married? I'm like, y'all, like, we didn't know we're gonna have a big party like to solidify our commitment. Like, I will let you know, cuz I love big party. So don't you worry, you will be the first to know when we like, do the deed and tie the knot, right. But I mean, like, for all intents and purposes, like we're in it to win it, like whether we actually get legally married or not, like we have a dog, we share a bank account, like we're looking at buying a house, they're like, we're married. So fuck it, he's my husband, like, that is the appropriate label if I'm talking to people, especially because I have other partners. So if I just call him my partner, I could be talking about him. I could be talking about somebody else. I could be talking about the guy that lives down the street. I don't know, right, and neither do you. But in our current situation, we actually opened up our relationship during the pandemic, and what I mean, so let me go back a little bit into my history. I have a lot of trust issues. I grew up in a household with a narcissistic mom, who was emotionally abusive, and like, I need a very deep level of trust before I can like, probably mostly with myself, honestly, before I can, like start to explore other things. So if you're looking at like attachment styles, it very much is needing that secure attachment, and having that stable base before I feel safe to go out and explore. No, of course, that doesn't necessarily mean my partners feel the same way. And whenever I am, like dating somebody, I start off very early on like a look, like, I need this to be monogamous for a bit like, but trust like 5-10, three years down the line, like, I'm gonna get bored, I'm gonna want to open it up like, I love people. So if we're talking like sexuality, like pansexual, demisexual, sapiosexual, somewhere along that line, like, I just need to have some sort of like emotional and intellectual connection with somebody to even consider like, being attracted to them, right? Um, so, being a person who loves people, I'm like, there's gonna be somebody who comes along eventually, then I'm also going to be interested in either sexually or romantically or both. So like, Look, this is what I'm like setting you up for maybe not right now, because I need to have my stable base. But in the future, I'm going to be like, hey, it's time, right? So those are like, kind of like my labels in a nutshell. Mm hmm. Yeah, yeah. So that's funny. We we have a dog like that. That's it. We're committed, we have a dog. Yeah. I know that some actual parents have, like children, like are offended by it. But I'm like, it really is like having a child because that never grows up. Right? Like, a dog has a lot of health issues. And we've been so much together just like in the middle of the night with him, like pooping or vomiting or whatever, and driving him to urgent care. And I'm just like, like, we've had so many sleepless nights with this dog. He's a year and a half old. We're at urgent care, like once a month. So like, I'm like, No, no, this is a child. It's a big responsibility, a big commitment. You mentioned attachment styles. And I'm curious, have you read Polly secure? Like beginning stages of it? And I love what she says, because a lot of my monogamous friends especially because so like, you know, I'm a dating coach for nerds. And they're like, Did you read attached and I'm like, I didn't, because like, my background is in therapy. And I know that like, at least from the reviews I've read, I've never actually read that book. But like, you know, their whole take is like, oh, if you're insecure, the security securely attached person is the person who needs to, like do most of the work and like, if you're insecurely attached, you need to like find somebody who has secure attachment. And I'm like, that's not really how it works. So the author of Polly secure, I think her name is Jessica, if I remember Correct, yeah.

Ellecia  07:23

Jessica Fern. Yeah, I really love how she expands what like, the

Kari  07:30

pop psych is saying about attachment styles and attachment theory. And it's like, no, like, you can have different attachment styles with different people. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's what's true. I love that book so much, because I've done as you know, as a relationship coach. So I've read so much about attachment theory, and all of it is like, basically, you have to be monogamous to be securely attached. Right. And so I've had to take everything I knew and like, modify it to fit non monogamy. And then and then here came this book that just did it. And I was like, oh, I've been doing it right. Like, oh, yeah, okay, now, somebody has like, take at least for me, anyways, I'm, I'm very verbose. And I'm like, oh, someone's taking my like rambling descriptions of things and just put them all into like this very concise, clear narrative, right. Oh, that's amazing. I love it. So, Have you always been drawn towards non monogamy even though you like to build a secure base with monogamous relationship style? Yes. So. So my ethical non monogamy and my ethical non monogamy really came like when I was maybe like, 18 to 20 years old, because I was in a few relationships in high school where I cheated. And I was like, well, it's not that I don't love this other person, right? That I'm like, seeing, right, but I also really want to have sex with this person that I'm not seeing, or like, a lot, because a lot of times, it's my friends just because of my like sexuality. And the way I'm like, romantically attracted to people. So I'm like, well, but also, like, I have this really good friend. And we also want to have sex and like, you know, like, maybe we're not like, in a romantic relationship, quote, unquote, but like, I also want to do these things with this other person. So it was like, always there. But it didn't, you know, because we're conditioned on the relationship escalator. Like, it didn't know I'm like, 16 years old, like, what fuck do I now right? And so, um, it wasn't

09:34

until I got to college that I was kind of introduced to like the vocabulary and that there was this world where you could be an ethical person and still date and like, have relationships with and have sex with like, multiple people. And I was like, oh, okay, this because I am very ethical person. So of course, like, even when I did cheat, I'd go straight to my partner and be like, ummm okay. So this thing happened, like, we need to talk about it right? Um, and just like learning that like polyamory and ethical non monogamy was the thing. It was like, okay, like, my life has just blossomed into everything that I wanted it to be.

Kari  10:17

Ah, yeah. Oh, I love that. I love that I didn't figure it out until I was like 35. So awesome. Because if I had known that that was an option, my entire life would be very different right now. Totally. I Okay, so I'm curious, your husband? Was he non monogamous prior? Or was this something you introduced? No.

10:45

I laughed, because like, part of my journey is always like always, always learning patience just part of my journey in this world. It's my life journey. And of course, because I'm me, and I'm in my head. I'm like, No, this makes sense. Like, why is this so hard for you to wrap?

Kari  11:03

I'm like, and going through this, to him has just been such a great learning experience for me. Because I mean, he right, like I said, like, he knew like this was like, somewhere on the horizon at some point. But even when I brought it up to him of like, being ready, which came about because this is how it always comes about, because I'm not one, necessarily to like, seek out dates or dating like it just like people fall into my lap. And I'm like, oh, you're fun. Like, let's, you know, let's figure something out. And that's essentially what happened is that like, a good friend of mine, and I were talking about kink, which is not something that my husband is into. And I'm like, if we're looking at the scope of like, ethical non monogamy, I'm more of like a relationship anarchist than anything. And so like, a good friend of mine, and I, like discovered that we are both into kink. And we both kind of have like, the same attraction to like power dynamics, and like rope and like all of this other stuff. And I was like, oh, oh, yeah. Okay. And it was kind

12:03

of getting to that place where it was no longer just like information. It was like, Oh, this could be a thing.

Kari  12:09

And so. So that's kind of how, like, the I'm ready conversation came up. But even before we, my husband, and I got serious, I was like, look like, this is a thing. That's part of my life. I don't know when it's gonna happen. Like, I don't know. I mean, who knows? Like, it may never happen, right? But like, I know, myself, so like, I'm, I know, it will happen eventually. Um, so like, just be like, if we're gonna get serious, like, that's something you have to be okay with, right? So, no, he was not non monogamous. And he, like, grew up in the church. So he has, like, absolved himself of a lot of that conditioning. And I still, like, it comes up, you know, and especially started to come up when I don't even know if it's the church so much as like the conditioning that we get from society, but it was a lot of like, why am I not good enough? Why, you know, like, I need to know that I'm, well, I have this too, right. Like, I need to know that I'm the best or like, I'm the most desired, right? Yeah, yeah, that that runs deep. I think like, you can I just cognitively like logically know that those aren't real things. Like you can't actually be the best of the best of the best of every of the billions of humans on the planet. Like, you know, like, we know that. And, yeah, we totally want to be that for somebody. Totally. And I had to do a lot of work because I'm a very jealous person. So like, when I was younger, and in non monogamous relationships, like it was a big fat mass, right? I think a lot of us go through this journey of like, when we first step into ethical non monogamy of like, yeah, okay, we're talking this out. And like, I think a lot of times, maybe even especially as women, right, we're not super tapped into our desires and our needs. We don't really know where these feelings come from. We're just like, No, I'm feeling these feelings, and I don't know what to do about them. So I'm just gonna spew them out, right? Help me, right. And it was so great, though, because with this particular relationship with my husband, like, we're so self aware, and like, really committed to like, personal growth and self awareness that I was like, Okay, I do actually know what I need. And I can like, create, you know, cuz we're in the pandemic. So like, we're not really seeing anybody, especially not like in person. So we've had time and I think it's glorious. Because it's given me time because I'm a very slow, like, processor.

14:45

So I'm like, okay, like, I already know, I'm probably gonna end up being jealous. What does this mean and what do I need? And I was like, I really just need you to tell me that I'm the best and you're going to come home to me, like whenever you go out with somebody else, like, in fact, I will probably enjoy you going out with somebody else? A lot, because I love quiet time. Like I'm a Virgo. I'm very hermity. I also love people, but like, my home is my quiet time. And my husband is very much a Taurus and very, very outgoing and very loud and needs to talk all the time and needs noise and stimulation all the time. And I'm like, I, like living together during the pandemic has been like, Oh, my God, like, we've got to figure something out. Because I can't be this stimulated all the time. So I'm like, no, please go out with people so I can have quiet at home.

Kari  15:37

Yeah, yeah, yeah, go out and come back and tell me about it. I can totally relate to it's funny to be very jealous. People always assume like, oh, you're not monogamous. You probably don't have to deal with jealousy. Right? That is not the case at all. Like, I am super jealous and possessive. And that's like, it's one of those things. You go, Well, this doesn't serve me in any positive way. So I need to figure this shit out. Because like, it doesn't make my life better at all. Right, exactly.  Because the thing is, and I talk about this with my clients all the time, because if it shows up, I mean, anywhere, but right. Like, we're both relationship coaches, like, if it shows up in your romantic relationships, it's showing up somewhere else, or vice versa. And I absolutely have the same thing that happens like with my close friends, right? Like, yeah, yeah, they go out and like, tell me about this great time they had with somebody else, or even like, if they start dating somebody new, I'm like, we don't me like, Why? Why are you abandoning me? Right? Like, at the core of it all, like this abandonment, that doesn't actually exist, because they're not abandoning you. They're just, you know, they have other people in their life, because that's what humans do. So totally, totally. Oh, wow. Okay, I'm curious what for you, is like, like, what's the key thing that helps you with jealousy? The Good question.

17:04

A lot of it, honestly, is like logicing myself out of it, really. And coming back to this, the mindset of like, no way, like, this is normal.

Kari  17:15

It's normal to

17:17

be in a relationship and have and like other people, whichever way that goes, whether that's me or my partner, it's normal to have friends who want to date other people, or like, whatever, right? Um, and like, really like being kind to myself, and reminding myself like, this is my abandonment issues. And asking myself like, one, what can I do for myself to like, self soothe these abandonment issues? And two what do I want? Or what do I need from like, my partner or my friends? Or like, whoever whomever I'm feeling jealous about? What do I need from them to like, kind of also soothe those abandonment issues? Because I think one of the things that people, maybe in the maybe in the non monogamy world, but I think in general, are like, like, at least in Western society are very much like, well, you need to self resource and like, it's really like a big thing to be self resourced, and be independent and do your own healing, which, yes, I agree with that. And humans are communal creatures. So of course, like healing happens in community, as well.

Kari  18:23

So it's kind of like, you have to find that balance between like, Yes, I've taken care of myself as much as I can. And now, like the extra healing part is like, what do I need from that person? How can they help me right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, there is there's, we have this weird, kind of like, we're told to be really independent. And we put a shit ton of value on being codependent. And there's not a lot of direction on how to, like, be interdependent in that, that in between places where you can resource yourself, and also ask for the support that you need. Right. Right. And I think it's in that like, balance of like resourcing yourself first that you can go and ask what you need, without the codependent expectation that the answer is always going to be yes. Ooh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that then that if they say, No, it's not because like, You're bad and worthless and not loved. Because they're a whole person doing their own thing.

19:24

I think I feel like I've seen this a lot more, and I think like, all of the humans during this global pandemic have kind of in some way had to figure it out or have gone through a lot of like, emotional turmoil, right? Because we're going through this global trauma and people are handling it so differently. I do feel like a lot of people have had to like figure it out. Because like, you know, maybe and I actually have this with my best friend. So maybe your best friend isn't texting you every day anymore, because they're fucking dealing with their own shit, right? Like, we're all like, I know. I've spent over a year in my abode, like with all of the, like, dishes and chores, or whatever, talking to me, right, like in the periphery and my dog talking to me in the periphery, because he's very anxious. And like, I don't get a break from that. So like, I don't have as much emotional energy to text my best friend, or, you know, like, be in communication with like, like random people, but like, even people I know, because like, I have to save all my energy for myself, my partner, and my clients. And that's all. That's all. That's all I have, like, the amount for

Kari  20:35

it, I want to ask you about, there's something okay. Earlier, you were talking about how you had established a solid base with your husband and started out monogamous and just said, like, hey, this, this is the thing I'm going to want. And I'm curious, because this is something that people ask me all the time if they're single and dating, and they know that they want to be non monogamous at some point, people ask me all the time, should we start out? Should I find someone and start out monogamous, build a secure base, and then open up? Or should I, from the get go, be open. And I love how how like introspective you are, and how well you know yourself. And have had enough experiences to know what works for you. But the advice I always give people is to begin as you intend to go on. Right? Like if you know, you don't want to be monogamous, start out that way, even if it's really slowly, because when you build a monogamous relationship, and then open it up, you change a lot of it. And so, like my marriage, we've been together is seven years, I think, and we've never been monogamous. Because I was previously married 13 years monogamously. And I was like, Well, I'm not doing that again. And so it's just it's really cool to me to see like the the different ways that people approach it. And so I'm curious for you what changes in your relationship when you go from monogamous to non monogamous? Like, what are the big shifts that you have to work on? Hmm, yeah. I mean, other people? No, totally, totally. You know, I, I always tell people, so I'm actually the opposite of you, maybe not even the opposite. I have a different scope, right. So if people are interested in exploring ethical non monogamy I'm like, and right, like if they're like me, and they have this like very insecure attachment style and need that security before they can like branch out, you know, I say, do whatever feels right, do whatever feels good. But my big thing is, like ethical dating, so if you're going to be out there, and you want to explore ethical non monogamy, like, be really upfront about that, right? Like, if you know that, like you need to build a secure established base first. And you also know that like, you will want to explore other people later, be very upfront about that before it gets like a first date, second date, third date, it doesn't really matter, just way early on, like before you get serious with somebody because that way they know like what they're getting into. I think personally, if I were to go back and do it again, with my husband, I might have thrown in like more reminders. That's, that's what I was gonna say is and keep bringing it up. Yeah. Yeah.  Well, because like he and when we went through our shift, this is where the door is, comes in. We're both very stubborn people. Um, but like, one of the things that he kept bringing up when we were going through the early conversations was, well, I thought this was something we do 10 years from now. And we'd be that sexy couple who was like being, you know, whatever, sexy or whatever, right? And I was like, you know, cuz I did tell him I was like, you know, probably in about 10 years, like, I'm gonna need something

23:58

new, like, I'm gonna find another person, you know, whatever. But like, honestly, on some level, this was happening before the pandemic, because I worked in a bar. And I don't like take people home from the bar. That's not really my style, but I have coworkers that I flirt with, like, you know, every time I'm at work, and because of the pandemic and nothing happened, and I'm not saying anything would have happened without my partner's consent, but we we still would have had that conversation, right? You know, you like you feel it's an energetic shift when you go from just like oh we're coworkers and we're doing the like social flirtation, you know, whatever, just having fun at work thing to Oh, like, we have to be really careful.

Kari  24:41

Otherwise, we might cross a line right? So, so yeah, I definitely would have just reminded Alright, remember, like I talked about this thing, not there yet, but like, just know that like,

24:56

and I think like to, you know, one of the biggest things I learned. Cuz we went through this, like our transition in like October of 2020 ish and like, so the entire end of 2020 was trying to, like, work out mostly for him emotionally, like what that meant and like, what that looked like and what it meant to, like, marry like all of this stuff. And I think my biggest thing, my biggest takeaway was,

Kari  25:21

oh, you get to take a break. Because we would do. And some of this is me, because I am the type of person who wants to like, there's a problem, we need to fix it, we need to fix it right now. So I have a big sense of urgency around everything that I'm working on. And so we would have, like, early on these conversations about how this was gonna work, like every day, and it was exhausting. After like, a month of that, it was like, I can't I can't do this anymore. Why are we even doing this? Maybe we just break up and I do. Like, I'm a big fan of solo polyamory if we weren't together. At this point. I might actually do more exploration on that end of thing because I am so like, hyper independent. And we are and I love him. So like, you know, whatever, we're figuring it out. But after that, like month of pure exhaustion, it was like, Okay, how about we do this? How about we do a check in once a week, see where we're both that like emotionally with this like non monogamy thing. See, like, where you are feeling okay with me, like kind of branching out because that honestly, like, even in this, like, this particular thing wasn't, I mean, it was sexual. And it wasn't at the same time, because like, in the middle of a pandemic, we're not, I'm not actually going out to see this person. And, like, we were engaging in like a dominant submissive relationship, which is easily done over text, or over zoom, or a phone call, or like, whatever, right. And I told my husband, I was like, and this is why I love non monogamy because it's so expansive, because my husband has things around like he's very egalitarian, which is why he's my husband. But that egalitarianism also transfers into the bedroom. And I'm like, I mean, like, it's fine, you know, and I appreciate that. And like, it doesn't really turn

27:16

me on like, in the same way that like the power dynamic thing turns me on. So I'm like, really, like, this is better for you. Because I'm not asking you for something you don't want to give me. And because we're in a pandemic, I get to get all riled up because I'm very much um, I'm very much a tease, like in both directions, like I need a very slow, I have a very slow build up to like getting turned on, I need the tease I need the space. I need there to just be like little drips of like, you know, sensuality throughout the day, and he works a corporate job. He's like, I don't want to be turned on all day. And I'm like, great, this is great, because then you don't have to worry about it. I'm turned on when you get home, we can have sex. I don't know what that means. Like, once we're out of the pandemic, but like, it's a good like, starting, like jumping off point. So I don't know what my point was, but like, you know, Oh, right. So like, for me, it was very expansive. Like, look, this takes so much pressure off of you, off of our relationship, and we're both getting what we need, like, how beautiful is that? Right?

Kari  28:17

Yeah, yeah, I love that. And there's something I think there's something really, really special about giving yourself the space to move slowly. Like, like for everyone involved, right? Like, yeah, totally, there's often this drive to go go go and experience the new things and feel all the fields. But everyone, you know, people who are maybe struggling with it, or aren't really sure where the cards are gonna land like going slowly gives everybody the space to integrate, and, and you still get to experience all the good stuff just like prolonged like, it stretches out the NRE. Yeah, oh, my God, can

28:57

we talk about new relationship energy? Because that I would, I mean, this is always right, like, because I'm really big in the like, new relationship energy, like, I mean, I think we all are, but like, I'm very addicted to it. It's so fun. And I think for me, like if I were to go back and do it again, I would definitely like, not put a damper on it. Because that's not what I want to say because like feel your feels, but like, I would be way more mindful about how that's affecting my husband. I was moving quickly. My husband was not so like, there was a piece there where I had to be like, oh, okay, like me and it was it was a little complicated because it's also my friend so it's just like, Okay, well, but this person is also my friend. So if I want to sit down and like socially distance, watch a movie over zoom or whatever with him. It's not necessarily because I'm like, we're on a date or whatever. You know what I mean? Like he's just my friend. We want to watch tangled, right? So that actually happened. Like, right, like it is being more aware of like, okay, even if it's not a date for me, even if it is just like, this is my good friend, and we're watching a movie together on that level, and not a romantic level, like, it's still affecting my partner, you know? Because like, yeah, some of it is NRE, and some of it is like, you know, like, he might perceive it as, like a relationship thing when, you know, it's not, but it doesn't matter what I think. I mean, it does matter what I think but like, in terms of like resourcing him as part of like our union. I have to put that aside on some level, because I may know that my intentions are very pure, but if that's affecting him, then I don't really feel like it's super ethical for me to, like, do this thing, if it's affecting him to the point where he's just like, wrecked, you know, like, emotionally wrecked,

Kari  30:51

There's something about, like, having, having, creating that kind of space, where where your partner can can integrate and feel what's going on, like, their perception of what is happening. matters, too. Right? Like, it's not just what like, what you feel is happening, but like their perception is something to take into account. 100%

31:14

Yeah, absolutely. And it's so it's funny because I actually just got into like an internet conversation about this in like one of the spiritual groups I'm in and someone was like, well, I believe there's one soul mate like, what does this even mean? How does this work? And I don't actually believe that you have one soulmate. I don't believe your soulmate is romantic or sexual all the time, either. So like, there's already like a values difference there. But like, it's like no, like, there's no like monogamy and non monogamy. Now, there's no one better than the other and right, like there is a certain maturity and complexity that comes with being non monogamous, because especially when you have like multiple partners, you're not just taking one person's perception into consideration. You're taking multiple people's perception into consideration. And I mean, who knows how that'll work out, you know?

Kari  32:03

Yeah, I completely agree. monogamy is like a super valid relationship style for most people. I think. Not everyone is equipped with the skills to have multiple romantic relationships.

32:17

I mean, you know, we talk about I don't know who we is, but like, I hear, I guess a lot about like, people always, like, you know, when are you polysaturated? Like, how do I know you know, whatever. And I'm like, honestly, like, for me, I have my husband, and that's great. And like, mostly saturated, at least right now during the pandemic, because he's so social, right? And I have this other partner, and I'm like, I, you know, I might want to have a relationship with a woman and I'm done because like, I am very hermity and like, I need a lot of alone time. I can't imagine having like a more than like two or three partners, because I would just explode. Like, like, I think like, so we know that like solo polyamory, generally, right? Like, people don't get married, and they stay single. And they kind of like live on their own. They won't necessarily like cohabitate and whatever. But really, like, even in my cohabitation, I'm like, No, I'm very solo polyamorous because like me first, please like me first. So that way I can be available for everybody else in my life.

Kari  33:22

Yeah, yeah, that's a skill more people need to hone is taking time for themselves. You know, plenty of people just fill up their schedule with everybody else's desires and needs. And then they're left completely drained all the time. Like, you see me and then I learned. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I think, I think Yeah, poly saturated. It is. It's super individual. But like, I've got three partners, three kids, two businesses. I still want to have like, lots of sex with like, like, outside of that. But beyond sexual connections. Nope. Yeah. No, yeah, I haven't. And that's something I'm still dealing with, you know, because in this particular relationship, right, because we opened it up during the pandemic, like, I haven't had sex with anybody else. And now, you know, now that I'm in my late 30s, I'm like, Oh, yeah, health things. So I should probably be like, more more aware of these things, and, and being somebody who's very germaphobic I'm, like, I don't even know like, what would be okay, a thing like, over the pandemic, I took myself off of birth control. So that actually leaves out like, it's always going to be protected. So at the very least, there's like that barrier, but I'm like, how often do I have to get tested? How often like what my partners have to get tested for me to feel comfortable? And I'm like this, it's a lot like it's a lot to think about, you know, oh so much. You know, it's funny, I've always like my whole life been, and I don't know this might be something wrong with me... more concerned about getting pregnant than I was about anything else. And so I think that has saved me so much.

35:09

Same. Same. Same. Yeah. And I like, I've kind of put that on the back burner, just because I'm like, Okay, cool. I can use condoms. That's all I can deal with right now in terms of like, the anxiety around being pregnant. So I'm like, what's the new problem? The new problem is STI is now what? And then like, it turns into this whole like, explosion in my brain. And I'm like, you know what, like, three to six months, we'll figure it out. It depends on the people like whatever I'll worry about

Kari  35:34

it when I get there.

Ellecia  35:35

 I love that plan. I love that plan. That's fantastic. Okay, I'm curious, what are the most awkward or intrusive or inappropriate or just weird things someone has said to you or asked you about your open relationship? Oh, man.

Kari  35:57

I don't know if anything's come up recently. You know, and I don't actually find this intrusive, because like I told you, like, before we started recording thing, I'm an open book, so I don't even think about it. Um, but one of my friends asked me when I was first telling him about it. And he's a very old friend. So like, again, didn't care. But he was like, so is this your decision? Or was it his? And I'm like, of course, it's mine. Like you. We've known each other since you were 16. So it's been like two decades. And I'm like, of course, you already know. This

36:26

is my idea. Like, why are you even asking me this question. But I think more than anything, what becomes weird is like, if people know, and by people, I mean, mostly cis het straight males or cit het males, right? If people know that I'm essentially bi right like, I'm pan, so gender doesn't really matter. And like, if you wanted to love me in that category, you could call me bi. So like, if if they know that I'm bi and poly-am, then it becomes this weird thing. Because they're like, oh, that means you're like, slutty, like, but like, in a good way. Right? And that means you're just sleeping around. And that means like, all these things, and I get so many creepers who just like don't understand, especially for me, I'm like, I mean, sex is a normal part of any relationship. So like, yes, obviously, that will happen. And like, that's not where we're starting. I'm not just looking for a quick lay. So like, you're like barking up the wrong tree, dude.

Kari  37:31

Like, please leave me alone. 

Ellecia  37:34

Yeah, yeah, that's super relatable. I've had a lot of Oh, so that means we can have a threesome.

Kari  37:39

No. Which is funny, because my first experiences when I was 17, I had a threesome with my boyfriend. But my whole High School boyfriend had a threesome with another girl. And I was like, up to that point was like, pretty sure I was bi wasn't, you know, 100%. And then we had this threesome. That was super awkward. I was super jealous. I was on my periods. Everything was awkward and uncomfortable. And I walked away from that and was like. Nope, I'm straight. I don't share. I will never do this again. Like, I had so many feelings about it. That all were shattered. Yeah. 20 years later. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I've

38:25

had those bad threesome experiences. And yeah, it was it was kind of like, I don't know if I'll ever do this again. And this doesn't mean that I'm like, straight or monogamous. It just means I have to figure something else out. Whatever that is, you know, I think one of the best threesome experiences, I've had those with my friend and his girlfriend at the time. This was like, way back. I think it was maybe like 25. Um, and they actually I was in Los Angeles, which is where I'm at now. And they lived in the Midwest, which is where I grew up. But they were like, Oh, do you want to be like a thrupple? Basically? And I'm like, Well, no, because like, I live across the country. But, um, but I, you know, I thought about it. And I was like, you know, I could probably do this. And like, what would that look like? Because like, I like girls, like I like women. I'm not attracted to her though. So how would that even work? Like, you know, and now that I'm older, it would be like kind of one of those things where it's like, well, we can be romantic and I'd be okay with that. And like sometimes we can have sex and that would just be a thing even though I'm not like attracted to her and right like, What a weird like looking back at it and knowing what I know about like non monogamy and like unicorn hunters and all this stuff now. I'm like, What a weird like couples privilege-y type thing, like, not ever conscious. I feel like most people are not conscious about this. Right? But like, yeah, like okay, so we don't really care if you're attracted to you know, one of these parties, but like, if you're attracted to one of us, then like, of course, that means we're going to be In a threesome like a threesome or thrupple or whatever, together, right?

Ellecia  40:03

Right, right. Yeah, I think that's so common and people don't know. Like, they don't know that that's what they're doing. Mm hmm. Yeah. Right. Like, because we're so focused on monogamy. And even that word thrupple, I say this, I hate that word. Because it's like, they took couple and added another person to make it super palatable for the society at large. Right? Like, like, there's, there's the couple, and they're like the real, the real couple. And then there's one more, right, but they're just an addition.

Kari  40:35

Yes, so weird. But I think to like, because I obviously didn't have this when I was 25. But I think now like, being able to distinguish, like, the difference between romance and sex, and like sexual attraction, because like, I would love Like, they're not together anymore, either, because we were 25. But like, I would have loved to be romantic with her. She was great. She was lovely. I'm still friends with her today. But like, I just wasn't sexually attracted to her, you know, like, but it's different. And so we could have had a great romance, it just wouldn't have included sex. Yeah. Oh, I love that. I love that there's so much. I don't know, like, like nuance or, like, so many different, like, definitions of how relationships can go like, like, we're kind of taught this one thing, right? You are physically attracted to each other, you fall in love, you have sex to get married, like, you know, like, those are the things but there's so much in between there where you can have a romantic relationship that isn't super sexual, or you can have a very sexual relationship that isn't romantic. And all the things in between there.

41:48

Yeah, yeah. I don't know if you've come across the relationship anarchy smorgasbord. No, I'll send it to you. Because I would please do. It's literally this worksheet that has like, maybe like 12 or 15 bubbles of like the different types of relationships you can have. And it's like, you know, like life partnership like sharing finances having actually they break apart like life partnership, and like, like child care, basically, or like pet care or whatever. And then like kink, powerplay, business relationships, romance, sex. And I'm like, this is perfect, because it's just such a clear layout of like, all of the different things that can be encompassed in a relationship. And like, I'm like, I'm gonna take those worksheets to all of my partners and be like, where do we like, this is where I think we're at Where do you think you're like, Where do you think we're at? Like, what do we want to add more of this? Do we want to subtract more of this? Because I'm like, this is fucking fantastic. Because I love so many people. And they don't all encompass like romance, or sex or kink or power play or even

Kari  42:55

business. 

Ellecia  42:56

Yeah, that's genius. What and I don't know from like, monogamously minded dating it there's a lot of we're just supposed to kind of go along until you start hitting escalation points. Yes. Right. Like, like, there isn't a lot of Oh, you're gonna have a conversation about defining what you are. And it's either we're monogamous, or we're just dating and in non monogamy and the way we date there's so so many more places that you can, one have those conversations and define what things are but also where you're wanting them to go without making the assumption that it's leading to the same thing. Yes Yeah. Well, and

43:42

that's what I talk about, like with my monogamous clients is that like, look like you may be monogamous, but you can learn a lot from like all of these like tenants that we hold in ethical non monogamy because, like, at the end of the day, I don't care if you're monogamous or non monogamous. Like I just don't give a fuck, what I care about is that you're ethical. So like, even if you're monogamous, like, be clear, be clear about what you want. Be clear about what you're going after, even if that's just like, hey, I want someone I can call up at midnight when I want a booty call, you know, like, cool, go out there into the world, like, be free. And be very honest about that, you know, and have those conversations or even if right like, because I think I think most people have been here before we're maybe we're looking for the partner the marriage the whatever, right? Like if you're monogamous, long term relationship, but then you like go on a date with somebody and you're like, oh, you're kind of cool. Like, I definitely don't want to spend the rest of my life with you. We'd love to fuck your brains out and maybe make this an ongoing thing. Also totally cool, but be very clear about it. Right? Be very ethical about it and make that very known. Like this is where we stand and I feel like everybody needs to be having these conversations, not just people who are non monogamous. Absolutely.

Kari  44:56

Absolutely. That's that's like the key to all relationships. Right, exactly. Yeah. And um, yeah, I

45:02

feel like cuz I'll take like the tenants from ethical non monogamy and tenants from like the kink and BDSM world which, like, you know, now that I'm doing that I'm like, Oh yeah, this is probably why like they're, I mean, on top of like the sexual fetish stuff, but like, this is probably why like they're very much usually paired together because it's a lot of the same tenants and like, it's just, if you want to do less harm to humans, right, like, just learn how to be very clear and do a lot of introspection and be very self aware, you know? Yeah, yes.

Kari  45:34

Ah, so good. I love that. You know, it's funny, I also find so yeah, kink, polyamory, and nerds all kind of go together. That's a thing. So I'm curious about your dating for nerds coaching, what does that look like? I suppose it looks like any other coaching. But I guess I don't really know. I have my I have a business coach. And like, my partner and I went through some Relationship Coaching like even before we started opening things up, which was probably very, very helpful. that it happened like before we open things. But it was kind of like a one two punch. It was like we finished this Relationship Coaching and then like, not too far after that, it was like, Oh, yeah, I'm ready. Right now I'm, I have three more one on one spots available. And then I'm opening up a group program that starts in July of this year. And again, like really what I base it around is ethics. It's really about being ethical. It's about that honesty with yourself and honesty with everybody else that you interact with, and looking at how do I self resource? And then how do I take that into my community so I can get the support that I need, whether that's from a partner or a friend or a sister or whatever, right? And like, obviously, you know, but like my one on ones are very unique and customized to my clients. And everything is done through this lens of like, the tenets of ethical non monogamy and kink because like, at the end of the day, what matters to me is doing less harm. I feel like there's so much harm in the world. In general, right? Because we have this very, like, patriarchal capitalistic, like competitive, which is part of the patriarchy competitive world were like, well, I want this thing it's kind of like that like adage of like, Oh, what is it? What is it? What is it? It's the one about love and war? I can't remember what it is. But like, oh, all fair in love and war, right? Like, how shitty is that? Right? Like, oh, if you love that, and I've seen it, I've seen it happen before with like, old old friends. Oh, if you love this person, it doesn't matter. Like where they're at emotionally or whether or not they're seeing somebody else or like bla bla bla bla bla, like, if you love them, you're gonna go get them and you're gonna steal them away. I don't like that is really shitty. So when you work with me, and it's really looking at like, how can we be ethical about everything that we do especially dating? How do we decondition from the relationship escalator, this competitive competitiveness and this lack mindset? And how do you resource yourself, build up your resiliency around rejection? And then use your community to help support you while you're going through this process? Again, whether you're monogamous or not, it's kind of all the same thing. It's just Are you looking for support and doing this with one person or multiple people?

Ellecia  48:35

Yesssss that's so good, that's so good. I think lots of people can most people can benefit from

Kari  48:43

that. Feel to especially for me, because right now my client load is people who either are or are exploring ethical non monogamy and a lot of the work that we're doing is around like, the shame,

Ellecia  48:57

MMM. Yes. Oh, the shame. It's so big. Yeah.

Kari  49:03

Yeah. Cuz even in like very sex positive community is right. Like it can still be this very taboo subject. And I you know, with my therapy background, like, even there, right, like with the people who are supposed to be helping us heal, like it's still very like, oh, there's something wrong with you. Oh, right. Like, you need to fix this thing. And it's just like, no, like, we just want to love multiple people. Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah, I've seen that a lot. Where non monogamy and kink both get pathologized in a weird way, because they aren't like, like, there's nothing in the DSM about those. Like, definitely. And I actually

49:44

think I don't remember exactly, because history is not like my big thing, but like, I actually think that like things like kink, were like, pathologized, like way back, you know, way, way back in the day so and may have even been part of the DSM, right like it's

Ellecia  49:58

like sexual deviancy. She has the vapors. Yeah, right. 

Kari  50:06

And when we think about these things in terms of like, coming out, right, like,

50:10

it's still relatively new and no disrespect at all to like the LGBTQIA community, but like it's even more taboo, I think than, than that community to right because I even get it from my my LGBTQIA friends who are not who are monogamous, right, they just don't understand. And so it is still very stigmatized. Well, I

Ellecia  50:33

think yeah, I think a lot of the work that's gone in to make everything feel socially acceptable. Part of that was like, Look, we're monogamous. We're in love. We have families where we do things just like you, you know. And then when you add non monogamy, it's like here, we've taken this, another step away from hetero mono normative culture. Yeah, yeah.

Kari  51:02

Yeah, that's interesting. I guess I never thought about it that way. Before that does make sense. And I think to like, at least, like the male side, right, like, there is this stereotype around like gay males being very promiscuous. And like, when we talk about things like kink or polyamory, like the assumption is that we're very promiscuous, which, I mean, I don't know, like, I'm not, I have a lot of other shit that I have to deal with. I can't be promiscuous. Like, it just doesn't work for me. Yes.

Ellecia  51:35

That's amazing. I love that because I totally AM. And yeah,

Kari  51:40

I'm a big germaphobe. I can't even like, again, like, I don't want to pathologize like anything really. But like, I don't think it's a pathology. I think I'm just a germaphobe. So if I think about it, if I think about like sex too much, and like the actual like mechanics of it, I'm like, Oh, my God, this is the most disgusting thing ever. So like, it really is, I have to like, shut off this piece of my brain that's like, Oh, this is how this work. And these are the fluids and I'm like, Oh, no. Nope, nevermind. I'm like, I only have the capacity to do that for like, maybe two or three people. Otherwise, my brick will explode.

Ellecia  52:20

I love that so much. Oh, Kari, you're amazing. I could probably talk to you all day long. And we'll probably have to do this again. 

Kari  52:31

Yeah, I would love that. This was so fun. Yeah, totally. Um, I'm gonna make sure that we put all of your links in the show notes and people can find you because, like I said, I think what you are offering in the world is so so so needed. And you are brilliant, and just lovely. And I think everybody should get to talk to you. Oh, yeah, I actually one last thing I want to touch on the nerd thing, because I always forget. But the reason I'm a dating coach for nerds like dating and relationship coach for nerds is because I'm a nerd, which is why I rarely ever talk about it, because I'm just like, it's just who I am. Right? Like, I love being with people who are curious and intellectual. I'm passionate about multiple things usually. And who love like, all the games and the escape rooms and the puzzles. So like, of course, these are the people I want to work with. Please talk to me about your like PhD in astronomy, and like all of the cool things you're doing at NASA, right? 

Ellecia  53:28

Oh, yes. Yes, those people really kind of get my juices flowing actually. Like massage my brain, please. Yeah.

Kari  53:42

Totally. It was wonderful to talk to you and I am going to click this button.

Ellecia  54:06

Thank you so much for listening today. It would mean the world to me personally and would help us keep this little podcast going. if you would subscribe, leave a review, or share this episode with your friends. For more personalized support with your own relationships, we can work together on a one to one basis, just visit my website at elleciapaine.com and schedule a free call to chat about life, the universe and your relationships. Bye