SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, polyamory, non monogamy, relationship, monogamous, enm, partners, struggled, community, ethical non monogamy, feel, group, years, monogamy, work, talking, life, spectrum, magazine, swinger
SPEAKERS
Michael, Ellecia
Ellecia 00:07
Hey, I'm Ellecia, your non monogamous relationship coach. Welcome to the podcast where my friends and I chat about our relationships, enthusiastic non monogamy, polyamory, swinging, kink, and our lives. You'll get a candid peek into what makes it worth it to live life outside the box. And in case you're still wondering, nope we're not monogamous. I want to introduce you, because you've got a lot of a lot of cool things here. Michael Love the former publisher of ENM Magazine and PDX scene magazine. You fancy yourself an ambassador and an advocate of ethical non monogamy, which I think is amazing. And you and your nesting partners run a really a thriving online ENM support community. Right? Yeah, yeah. And you have a podcast, the ENM talk podcast show?
Michael 01:06
Yeah, we stay pretty busy.
Ellecia 01:09
I love it. That's so much fun. I, I asked you to come on the show. Because, you know, we're in a lot of the same, I'm in your community. And you always have the best answers when people are looking for support or validation or just, you know, have some sort of quandary. And you always give the best answers around relationships and non monogamy.
Michael 01:38
Oh, gosh, thank you. Thank you, coming from you, that's, that's quite a compliment.
Ellecia 01:43
Oh, thanks.
Michael 01:44
Yeah, I think it's a, I think it just kind of comes from experience from a place of experience. And just being around being around really cool people like you had a lot of influences in the ENM community. And I don't know, I don't claim myself to be an expert. But I definitely I like people, and I enjoy helping people. And remember all too well, what it was like starting out. So being able to reach out and kind of offer some of what I've learned to people along the way, feels really good. And maybe if we can help at least one person avoid some of the traps that we've all endured, then I think that's a good thing. Right?
Ellecia 02:26
Totally. Yeah, yeah, no, that's exactly it. Right. Like, it's amazing how much we don't know what we don't know. And we kind of stumbled through things. And having experienced people to offer guidance. And yeah, and actually listening to it is, right, I think is important.
Michael 02:48
You know, we were having a discussion in the group the other day, somebody had said, made mention of the fact that we're basically we're rewriting the script, right. And we start out as non monogamous, and pretty much everything, you got to start all over with everything. And when you're first getting started, you just don't even know, you don't even know what that looks like, or what, what, what rewriting you have to do.
Ellecia 03:13
Ah, yeah, that is true. Because because we are, we kind of come like with this software already installed, just from our growing up, right in our society, right. It's like a base model, and you have to upgrade it.
Michael 03:34
And then you just, you just you literally just have to start all over again, with a lot of things that are just very base and very, you just, you don't even know, like you don't even know, all of the things that are going to change and all of the structures, how all the structures are going to change. And, and when you're first starting out, you don't even know what those structures are going to look like 10 years from now. So I think just kind of figuring out how you're going to evolve is really the starting point. I think that's where a lot of people get tripped up.
Ellecia 04:04
I think a lot of people just figure everything will stay the same, except for the sex.
Michael 04:10
Right?
Ellecia 04:11
Everything is just gonna be the same and we're just gonna have different, wilder sex.
Michael 04:15
And it's so, so much more complicated than that.
Ellecia 04:19
Totally. Yeah, yeah, I think I mean, it's funny to me how we have this idea that like, sex can be a separate thing from like the rest of our humanity, when it's such an integral part of who we are.
Michael 04:33
And I think in the casual side of things on the swinger side of things, I think that people are pretty good at separating those two things. For the most part, but for the most, for the most part, I mean, I'm one of my one of my tenants of non monogamy is the fact that it's a it's a spectrum, right like, you have one end of the spectrum you have swingers and on the other end of the spectrum, you have People that are polyamorous where it's more about the squishy feelings and less about the sex, where on the swinger side of things is all about the sex and not the squishy feelings. And very, very few people actually reside on either end of that spectrum. They're all somewhere in the middle. And that's one of the things that we're trying to do with the non monogamy, the ENM community, is we're trying to show people how much we're alike, and how we can take some of the things that work for polyamory and use them in the swinging side. And some of the things where we, you know, beliefs that we hold on the swinging side and bring them over to the, you know, the polyamory side, and that there's room in the middle for everyone. And it's kind of interesting to see how those communities blend together in our ENM group. And sometimes they blend together really well. And sometimes it's like oil and water.
Ellecia 05:58
It's true. It's true. I'm curious, where where do you fall on that spectrum?
Michael 06:05
That's actually a great question. And it's been a struggle on. We've been non monogamous for 10 years. And when we first started out, we immediately my wife and I went in separate directions. She didn't like being in the room where I was playing with somebody else. And I love being in the room watching her play. But she gravitated to the swinger side right away, like she didn't even need to know your name. And I found that I did better when I had connection with the people that I was playing with. And so polyamory kind of just kind of gravitated toward polyamory. But I also still like to play in casual play, and, you know, threesomes and foursomes and moresomes and I found I got a lot of pushback from the polyamory community, whenever I identified as polyamory so we tend to just kind of be in the gray area of everything. We are right smack in the middle between polyamory and swinging. Obviously, I live with I live in a triad, so we must have some polyamory tendencies, right? Yeah. But I also love to just hook up with a random person now and then. I have partners that are very much in the swinging spectrum, and they just love to get together and have fun and, and no strings attached kind of thing. So, you know, I kind of do we kind of do it all and just have fun with it. That's I mean, that's what life is about is, is enjoying experiences, right?
Ellecia 07:43
It totally is. Totally is. Yeah, that's funny, I can completely relate to that. Because I think I fall like right in the middle. And also live in a triad and other partners and
Michael 07:56
Kind of live in parallel lives here. Like we're just kind of like really in this damn track. And it's really frustrating because I want to have a label. But every time I give myself a label, somebody tells me how that label doesn't work. So I've just decided I'm ENM, that's that's what I am. I'm ethically non monogamous. And I challenge somebody to tell me that that doesn't fit me.
Ellecia 08:18
Yes, yes, totally. I started using I'm enthusiastically non monogamous.
Michael 08:25
That's super cool. Because I'm because I was the same way. At first, I was like, a relationship, anarchists like relationship anarchy really resonates with me. And then I was told I can't be a relationship anarchist, because I'm married, and I have hierarchy. And, you know, it's, that's, that's another, it's just another thing of where, you know, I felt like these, this part of life really resonated with me. And then was told that that didn't actually fit me. So we just kind of have our own set of rules, we kind of do our own thing. And, you know, we, we love to celebrate a supportive and empowering kind of atmosphere in our relationships, where we celebrate our autonomy in my triad and in my circle, any of my partners, there's, there's no limitations on who you can see, or how many partners you can have, or there's not any, there's not any ownership. I think that's one of the things that we love the most is we don't do ownership. It's the only thing I own is anything I can reach within my arm's length, you know, and that's, that's all me and my partners have ownership of themselves. I'm just fortunate to have attachments with them that I get to enjoy. And that's really kind of our kind of how we do things and we try really hard to, you know, celebrate and support each other's accomplishments and goals. And just, for example, we had Christina's birthday was This weekend, and Ellie had hooked up with a guy she'd been talking to online for, oh my gosh, I think it's been two or three years, four years. And, you know, we're just like, Yay, wow, that was awesome. So cool. And, you know, that was we just love being able to be supportive of each other in that way.
Ellecia 10:21
Oh, I love that this, like celebrate. That is my wish for everybody, right is to have like, like, a relate relationship structures that are intentional, and that, that really yet that celebration, that atmosphere of celebration, and being able to build each other up, that's frickin beautiful.
Michael 10:41
It's difficult, it's a difficult place for people to get to, I think, I think you have to make a commitment to it. And you have to work through your shit. And you have to work through your shit with it in mind that I'm trying to get from where I am to where I want to be. And it's getting, it's getting to that place, knowing that when you can get to that goal. It was It honestly was fascinating watching Christina do this, because for the first couple years of our relationship she really struggled with, with my partners and how, how active I was, and really struggled with how that impacted her and how it made her feel. And then I don't even I she just was like actively doing the work and, and trying to continually reclaim in her mind how important our relationship is to me. And eventually, she got to a point where she just had so much confidence in that relationship that she was able to let go of all of those negative feelings. And then she's like, I get it. It's like a light switch came on. She's like, I get it, I finally understand what it is that you feel, when I have a partner or when Ellie has a partner, it's like, it's so cool. And then you kind of become addicted to it. So it just it takes work. And for some people, it takes more work, I think. And a lot of it, I think is just about confidence and feeling secure in where you are and who you are in your relationship.
Ellecia 12:15
I completely agree with that. I just I love I just I want to reiterate to the listeners that it's totally possible, you can get to the other side. Like this is this is a prime example you can get to the other side. I remember, I chose non monogamy before I was with any of my partners that I currently have. And it was I remember, like, I could see the goal. I knew where I wanted to be. And it was like crossing a big river. Like I could see the other bank. I knew how I wanted things to be and I had to find the right stepping stones to get across the river and I fell in multiple times.
Michael 12:47
And it's so frustrating. It's so it's okay, I can remember I really should almost be having this conversation with Christina. Because she would tell you that it was just it was so frustrating for her because she wanted this so bad. And she wanted to feel like I feel so badly. And she just kept stumbling and kept stumbling. And she kept struggling and she had actually gotten to a point where she's like, I don't think I'm gonna get there. So she had to just kind of resigned herself to that and and then I don't know what happened somewhere in between there. And here. She just like I said she just flipped the switch. And then one day she's like, I want to know all about your date. I want to hear all about it. I want to I'm so excited for this new partner that you have. I want to hear all about her and it has been really cool. It has been really cool watching that happen.
Ellecia 13:39
I love that. What I'm curious, what are you were the like, what were the biggest challenges in getting to here.
Michael 13:48
This is perfect. So with Ellie, I have always felt infinite infinitely secure. Like, I've never felt a twinge of insecurity, of jealousy of anything. That woman has done some really incredible things with some of our partners, and she's had some really incredibly good looking partners. And, uh, never ever felt anything that resembled jealousy with her. And then I got together with Christina. I mean, there are many, many, many, many partners before Christina but I got together with Christina and we got really serious moved in together. I had Christina all to myself for two years like she just really struggled to connect with people during that time. And then all of a sudden there was someone and they hit it off and things were going really well with them and she went over to his place. And wow, my head just like melted down. I'm just like, oh my god, I'm gonna end up losing my relationship with her over this. She's gonna like him better, there were so many negative thoughts, all of those insecure feelings just kind of came crashing in. And I didn't even realize it, like I didn't even like it just kind of snuck up on me. And the next day, we kind of had a huge blow up about it. And I thought that I was being I was being very irrational, but it seemed very rational in my mind. And it, it took me a couple of days to really come to grips on what was going on. And I was like, This is what it feels like, okay, now I know, I have got to work on this, this isn't her, this is all me. And so took me kind of coming to grips with that. And I pulled her aside and I said, Hey, look, I'm, I'm way out of line here. And I'm, I'm kind of having some, some icky feelings, and I need to, I need to process this, and I need to work on this because I want to be a better partner for you. And, um, you know, I was told her, I was a little surprised at myself, because this isn't how I am. And this isn't how I act. And it took me it took me a little bit to get through it. But it was, it was really good for me to be on the other side of that equation and see what it feels like. And have to actually do all those things, you know, that people like you tell us this is how you win what you've got to do to get through these feelings, how you identify them, and, and how you sit down with them and, and try and you know, work your way through them and figure out where they're coming from and what you need to do to fix them and all those things, right. And it was fun for me. And I really think that's the key was I didn't look at it like this is torture, or this is work or this is really hard. I looked at it like, this is an opportunity. This is this is something I can now experience. And I can take that with me and I can learn from it. And I can grow from it, Christina and I can grow from it. And she got to see what it was like to be on the my side of the equation. Like you're here you are, you're being accused of things and all you're doing just having a good time. Yeah. And, and so it was really it was it was a great opportunity for us to like trade roles for a few days and get a sense of what that feels like, and how to work through that and how to identify it. I think that was that was probably one of the biggest hurdles that I've had to deal with that, and it's come up a couple of times, like there's been a couple of partners that have kind of like, shook my foundation just a little bit. But I'm a little better at identifying it every time and staying on top of it and saying, Okay, time to go to work.
Ellecia 17:43
I love that mindset of this is trying to make it fun, like, like, here's an opportunity to challenge myself and grow and become a better person. And like that. I don't know, I mean, we have this one life, right? And we can sit in our shit. Or we can or we can grow.
Michael 18:01
Or we can start shoveling.
Ellecia 18:03
Yeah, exactly, exactly. I love the idea of like transmuting it, right? Like, like, if you're sitting in muck, like transmuting the mud into clear water or like writing the river flow through maybe it's like, like, like tearing down a dam or a barrier. Right? Yeah,
Michael 18:21
that's one of the things that I hear they them talk about quite often in the group about, about how you're, you're, it's an up every time every struggle that you have in non monogamy and there. If there's one thing that I could tell anybody that's new coming into non monogamy is you will have struggles, you will have a lot of struggles. But every if you can come at it with the mindset of every single one of your struggles is an opportunity to grow. And it's an opportunity to become a better person. And it's an opportunity to improve your relationship with your partners, then it changes how you look at it, it doesn't it doesn't seem like such an awful thing. I mean, it's some of those challenges are awful. But when you realize it's an opportunity for you to tackle a problem head on, and figure out how to work it in change your thinking about it so that it becomes a better thing and not a worse thing. That's where that's where the gold is. And that's where, where just you have an opportunity to improve.
Ellecia 19:22
That's so good. Oh, I love it. I love it. I wonder what do you think? What do you think makes a relationship successful?
Michael 19:33
Communication, lots and lots of communication, honesty, respect, trust. I think all of those things wrapped up into a package is really what love is. It's you. You have those those are like the foundation blocks of what a good relationship is. And it doesn't matter whether it's your wife or whether it's the the new person that you just met on line that you, you have to have those things to start with, in order to have a good and effective relationship. And if you're coming from a place where some of those things are broken, they can be repaired. But those are those are the important parts of of any given relationship.
Ellecia 20:18
Yeah, I would, I would even say like, even going to, like the swinging end of the spectrum, you know, every interaction you have with someone is a relationship, and if you can establish that with clear communication, right, like, here's my wants and my desires, here's my STI status, here's my, you know, turn ons and turn offs, even like, even just establishing that for a, you know, even if it's just a two hour relationship.
Michael 20:44
Right. It's about in, you know, what I one of the things that I say and it's kind of how I call my my form of polyamory, I call it a friendship forward polyamory. So, I mean, even if you're just like meeting someone, for the first time in a party, or at a club or something, and, and you're going to go to a room and you're going to have sex, you have a relationship with that person, it, it may be just a friendship, it may be just a, Hey, I'm gonna be your friend for an hour. But you're generally generally you don't go somewhere off with the person that you're not, at least that you know, at least somehow like, or have some kind of connection with, right? Even if that connection is just, hey, I think you're kind of hot, you know? It's in so I think it starts with that. And like I say, the sum of those blocks may be very small, the honesty and the integrity and the conversation and the connection, and the trust that you you're this person is not going to harm you or, or that all of those things kind of combined. And they and I think that they start very small with like, friendships or like initial connections like that. And then as the relationship grows, they become bigger and become more fundamental part of the relationship. Yeah, absolutely.
Ellecia 22:04
What I'm okay, I Okay, I have a question, because you were talking about the spectrum of ethical non monogamy and I'm curious, like there's swinging and there's polyamory. Is there anything else that falls in the middle? Oh,
Michael 22:17
man, yeah. Have you ever seen? I mean, not not to bring up Franklin Veaux. But have you ever seen his diagram of all of the different kinds of relationships? Oh, yeah, I
Ellecia 22:30
remember that.
Michael 22:31
Okay. So, I mean, there's so many different types and styles of relationships. But the reality is, is that all of those fall somewhere in there, whether you're talking about a close triad, or you're talking about a polycule or you're talking about a certain you know, maybe it's a mono poly type of a connection, or, you know, where one partner doesn't play, but the other one does, those kinds of things. All of those things just fall in, to me, it's that I have a graphic somewhere that was in the magazine, it's that umbrella of non monogamy that all of the things kind of fall underneath of that. And so, close quads, and enclosed triads and all that sort of thing. They all kind of just fit underneath of there. And so that that's why that's why I love the simplicity of of the spectrum of non monogamy because no matter what, no matter how you do non monogamy ethical non monogamy, you fall somewhere in there, you know, obviously, the unethical forms of non monogamy we don't want those in our spectrum. Leave
Ellecia 23:47
Get out of my umbrella.
Michael 23:48
Get out of my umbrella, go stand in the rain.
Ellecia 23:54
Yeah, totally. I think I have that. I think I have that graphic. I'll link it with your, with your information in the show notes. Yeah, totally.
Michael 24:03
It's one of the it's one of the great things that Franklin Veaux put together. It's a it's it's a pretty good diagram for explaining what non monogamy looks like in its many, many, many forms. And that's one of the things too, it's like that's, we have this community of people that all come from so many different places, and we're trying to relate to one another. And sometimes we can and sometimes we can't. But that's that's one of the things that we're trying to do is get everybody to kind of be accepting of each other because the world is moving in a direction where we're we're next in the the group of people that are stigmatized that we need to get unstigmatized like we need to, we need to create a world where non monogamy is a legit form of a relationship. And in order to do that, we all have to be able to pull together And that's really kind of what my mission is, is to normalize non monogamy so that people don't have to lose jobs over their non monogamous status. It isn't something that's used against them and custody issues and child custody issues and things like that.
Ellecia 25:15
Oh, that is near and dear to my heart. That is precisely my mission in life. Um, yeah, there's, there's something about like, there's this, like value judgment that is placed on people who aren't married, or in a committed monogamous relationship. But if they're single and dating, it's fine. But But if they're not single and dating, it's totally wrong. And there's something wrong with them.
Michael 25:47
Isn't that crazy?
Ellecia 25:49
It blows my mind.
Michael 25:51
We one of the things we do we that, that we haven't talked about us, we actually do like social, social events and things like that. And one of my favorite social events that we do, it's a karaoke thing we do in a vanilla bar here in town. And it is so much fun to go there and just, you know, act like swingers or act like, you know, just just, we're just like we've been, we've been labeled as the swinger group. And people I think people enjoy watching us kind of carry on and interact and all that kind of stuff. But they also were still kind of judging us. And they're all single people in this bar, too. I've dated a couple of them. And but it's really funny about how single people are. They're just going around be doing the same thing we're doing. They just don't talk about it.
Ellecia 26:41
Yeah, exactly.
Michael 26:42
Where, where we're like, yes, we do this, you can date me, it's totally fine. You know, my wife will tell you, you should date me because I can do that thing with my tongue. And so...
Ellecia 26:54
What other reason is there?
Michael 26:55
And well, there's plenty of other reasons, but that is a pretty big one. Anyway, but yeah, so that, but I have actually encountered that. That single person judgment, where they frown on us talking about sharing and talking about it.
Ellecia 27:15
Yeah, that was, you know, when I, I was previously married, and I got divorced and decided I wasn't going to be monogamous again, for a whole bunch of reasons. But I didn't know anybody who like it and nobody swingers. I didn't know anybody who was polyamorous, like, I didn't know anybody did this. And I was just like, Well, I'm just gonna be a slut forever. But I'll be really honest about it. Because that feels like the clean way to do it. Like just to be open and honest with the people I'm dating. Like, you're not the only one. And it was it was very quickly that I learned that polyamory was a thing.
Michael 27:47
That's actually kind of impressive that you started out with that, before even having a community or having people that you could kind of model yourself after that's, that's, that's super cool.
Ellecia 27:59
Thank you, itgot me through a lot.
Michael 28:03
We just kind of stumbled into this thing. There's a whole that that is that is a story for a full podcast, which we actually have on our podcast, if you want to go listen to it, but perfect. Um, but anyway, it's a, we we weren't looking for non monogamy when we got into it, it was it was a thing, we just kind of were exposed to the community, almost the opposite of you. We were exposed to the community, and decided that we really, really liked the way that these people thought and like the way that they acted, and that we love the communication and the honesty. And I really think that that started the wheels turning for us. And so we had a lot of models to model ourselves after, still made a ton of mistakes. But we we had at least a launching point for that. So that's why I say it's, it's pretty impressive that you were you kind of decided that and kind of were on the right track from the very beginning with your own personal journey.
Ellecia 29:01
You know, I just, I thought I was like I had been married 13 years, and I had a couple of kids and had all the things that you're supposed to get with marriage. And I thought, well, I've done that. I don't want to go out and do that. Again. I don't want to spend another 13 years, and then come out in my 50s and go Well now I want to have sex with someone else. And then do it again and come out in my 70s and be like, well, now I'd like to have sex with someone else. Like I just thought like, I felt like I was wasting a lot of time. Because there was a lot of good things, but like sexually, I was wasting a lot of time.
Michael 29:32
And wouldn't it be a lot more fun if you didn't have to wait 13 years in between each time that you decided you wanted to have sex with somebody else? Right?
Ellecia 29:39
Exactly. Precisely. Yeah. Yeah. And then and then I fell in love again and went Oh shit. I have a lot of jealousy and a lot of possessiveness and a lot of insecurities that I got to work through.
Michael 29:52
Yeah, yeah, because it's, you know, no double standards. Yeah, yeah. Everybody gets to play
Ellecia 29:58
Yeah. Completely completely. I wonder what is the most, like, inappropriate, awkward or intrusive thing anyone's said to you or asked you about your relationship style.
Michael 30:13
The most awkward thing that somebody says to me is, after they have a date with my wife, and they come up and they say, thank you for sharing her. It's like, hmmm, man, you just ruined it for me. I don't do the permission thing. Like, I don't do that. When guys come up and say, Hey, is it okay? If I play with your wife? It's like, you got to ask her. She's not mine. You know? Yeah. And it's the same thing. On the other end, when they come up, and they say thank you. It's like, I appreciate it. And I understand what it means to them, and why it is why they feel like it's important to do that, because not everybody shares my views. But for me, she is her own person she is she has her own world. And I am just lucky to be attached to that. So it's not a matter of me giving permission, it's a matter of she chose you, and you are lucky that she chose you. Like, I am lucky that she chose me. And so that is probably the thing that I think is the most awkward thing. And it happens fairly frequently, is that people don't understand how that dynamic works for me, which is understandable, because even even in people couples that have been doing this for a long time, they still have a little bit of that ownership that they have, and especially on the swinger side, and anybody that's involved in the kink world that that permission is, is pretty a pretty big part of what they do.
Ellecia 31:46
Yeah, yeah, I feel like that's a little bit of a cultural or like a conditioned, monogamy hold out, that possession piece because you don't often see that gender swapped, right? It's right.
Michael 32:03
Well
Ellecia 32:03
Not often
Michael 32:05
It's happened to us. Ellie has had people that have come up to her and said, Man, I'm so glad that you share him with me. I'm really grateful to you for that. I don't know she feels the same way. I think that she might, she might actually still enjoy that. But she's You're welcome.
Ellecia 32:20
I've bestowed this upon you.
Michael 32:25
Yeah, I just I think that I think that there are a lot of things that when people come back, let's face it, most of us come into non monogamy from a monogamous place. I love that our generation is growing up with a different set of rules. They're growing up with a different life track option for themselves. Where we grew up with Monogamy was the thing you got older, you got a job, you got married, you had 2.5 Children, you probably got divorced, you got married again, then there was grandkids, and we didn't realize that there was a there was a different way you could live your life in our generation. And so I'm really glad to see that these generations are coming up. But rolling back to what we were talking about was that that so many of us try to step into non monogamy and try to bring bring our monogamy values with us. And so many of them, not only do they not work, but they create toxicity in what you're trying to do. Because it literally is rewriting the script.
Ellecia 33:34
Absolutely, yeah. It's, I tell people that when they're opening their relationship that like you aren't opening your relationship, you actually are creating a completely different relationship with not only a new container and new structure, but like new emotions that you haven't had to have and new, new, completely new ways of thinking that you haven't had to have, like, you're changing everything, right.
Michael 33:58
And I think that that's kind of one of the things takes me to one of the things that I often tell people, it's the other set of advice that I give to people is give yourself permission to fail. It's okay. Like you are you're creating a whole different kind of life a whole different kind of living your life a whole different way of loving people. It's, it's okay to get it wrong. And and, you know, you just look at those mistakes as opportunities for growth. And this is, you know, you pick it apart and you figure out what you did and how things went wrong. And then you fix it, if you can, and then you just move forward. It's, it's I think that's that's what life is about. It's about learning opportunities and opportunities for growth and becoming a better person.
Ellecia 34:44
Give yourself permission to fail a quote by Michael.
Michael 34:48
I don't know. I don't know if that's good. I can take credit for that. I'm pretty sure somebody else said that somewhere else.
Ellecia 34:54
I mean, it's like three words. There's lots of people have said it, but I'm attributing that to you
Michael 35:00
I promise you everything that I know I learned from someone else. So somebody somewhere said that and I, I adopted it as my own. So
Ellecia 35:13
I wonder, Is there is there anything that I haven't touched on that you would like to share with the people that are listening?
Michael 35:22
I think that we talked about all of the things that I was hoping to get to talk about. I'm really glad we didn't talk about the magazine a lot. Magazine, the magazine was a great thing, it was a beautiful thing. But it required dependency on people that we weren't really properly or adequately compensating them for. And so it was, it was kind of a community funded, or a community driven project that people quickly and easily got burnout on. And so we kept constantly finding ourselves in these deadlines. Oh, God, I've got to write a, I got to fill eight pages because somebody dropped the ball and didn't finish their article or didn't turn in their article. And, and it just turned into it turned into a huge amount of stress. It turned into stress on me, it turned into stress on my family. And it was something that none of us were making any money doing. And we're like, you know what, there's so many more fun things that we can be doing with our time, we should, we should focus on those and not put so much burden on other people. That magazine was a beautiful thing. But there are other things that we can do with our time. And that's really what we what we did. You can put that in there. I don't care. I'll tell you that
Ellecia 36:45
that gives me. You know, the one article I wrote for you. It gave me such a like, really profound respect for journalists. Because that shit is not easy.
Michael 36:57
It really isn't. It's in and being the publisher being the person that brings everything together. Can you imagine if you had to do that in a way that you weren't really able to plan for? Like, here it is. I should be editing I should be, you know, I'm channeling documents to editors for them to edit. And I'm starting layout and oh, right in the middle of that I've got to write a six page article that from nothing, because I don't even have any ideas. Yeah, so yeah, that was it was an interesting, it was an interesting experience. And you know, I don't feel too bad after giving up on it. After three years, I think we made a good solid effort. And we went through a year, the first year ENM magazine was under COVID. So that that poses some real challenges, too. So no, we decided we were really enjoying the group that we had started. And which is we haven't hardly even talked about that at all.
Ellecia 37:57
I was gonna ask it, can I link your group? Because it's my favorite group. Absolutely. Like I refer people to it all the time. It's my favorite Facebook group that exists.
Michael 38:05
It's, you know, it's it's a to me, it's, we created the group, because we wanted a place to promote the magazine because none of the groups wanted to let us promote the magazine. Yeah, yeah, owning a group, I can understand that. And then once we have the group, we never really promoted the magazine a lot through it, because I didn't for the same reason that I don't want to promote other things in the group. I don't want it it feels spammy. And so we didn't really end up using the group to promote the magazine. But the, the group itself just kind of took on its own life. And we love that we love that. It's the container that we've created. And some people look, it's a very managed group, like we're very particular about the content that we allow in there. But it's because we're trying to create a space where we can communicate, and we can talk about topics. And those things get lost in some of the other clutter that we see in a lot of other groups. But I really love the conversations that we have and the different perspectives. I've learned a lot from other people in that group. Like, some of the views and beliefs that I had, I was the guy we just had one the other day about consent and privacy and Ellie and I, for the longest time, we always had access to each other's phones, and then reading that, reading that discussion we were having about that, that that's a real trigger for some people. And so we're like, we never really, we never really engage that like we never actually did it. We just had the ability to do that. Yeah. But it made us kind of look a little deeper into what we were doing. Like maybe we should not maybe we should not have that be a thing. There's just so many things like even people have been doing this for 10 years we can still learn things from each other and yeah, so that's it's a great group to be a part of, if you're if you're non monogamous at all, I definitely would love for you to to share the link. We'll gladly accept more people.
Ellecia 40:03
Awesome. It's a it's a high quality group for sure. It really is. Yeah. Um, I'm gonna first say thank you so much for coming on. I love this conversation and I'm gonna link all your stuff and, and make sure people know where to find you and your group and all the things and the podcast.
Michael 40:23
Fantastic. Appreciate it. And you know what, I don't think that I said, Thank you for letting me come on the show. It's been great talking to you. I've known you for a year, over a year and we've interacted online quite a few times, but we've never actually talked face to face so this is kind of cool.
Ellecia 40:40
Yeah, it's amazing. I am I'm really stoked. I feel like we're definitely part of the same community and, and it's, it's really wonderful to talk to you face to face.
Michael 40:50
Absolutely. And doing the same work too.