Why Founders Miss the Moment with Craig Elias and Brandy Old

Most founders don’t lose deals because they lack hustle. They lose because they show up at the wrong moment, pitching someone who is still “happy enough” with the status quo. We sit down with Craig Elias, creator of Trigger Event Selling, and Brandy, startup builder and coach, to map the moments that actually make buyers move and how to be first in the door when they do.

We break down what a trigger event is, why the “window of dissatisfaction” is where buying decisions quietly begin, and how founders can stop wasting outreach on people who won’t change. You’ll hear practical startup sales frameworks like finding a motivated market beyond TAM SAM SOM, validating demand with Problem Bingo, and the painkiller vs vitamin test. We also dig into RIPES, the five-part logic buyers use to justify spend in B2B, plus how to clarify your ideal customer profile with bifurcation and a tight seven-second sales message.

Then we get tactical about go-to-market strategy: building a marketing moat with simple SEO plays like owning the domain language customers repeat, and how AI tools can speed research and planning without hiding behind tech. The big theme stays human, though: relationships, propinquity, and personal branding on LinkedIn so you’re known before the buyer is ready.

If you want better timing, cleaner positioning, and a startup sales process that doesn’t feel like begging, hit play. After you listen, subscribe, share it with a founder who needs it, and leave a review. What’s the trigger event that made your last big purchase happen?

Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Follow The Brand! We hope you enjoyed learning about the latest trends and strategies in Personal Branding, Business and Career Development, Financial Empowerment, Technology Innovation, and Executive Presence. To keep up with the latest insights and updates, visit 5starbdm.com
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And don’t miss Grant McGaugh’s new book, First Light — a powerful guide to igniting your purpose and building a BRAVE brand that stands out in a changing world. - https://5starbdm.com/brave-masterclass/

See you next time on Follow The Brand!

Transcript

Why Timing Beats A Great Pitch

SPEAKER_00 0:01

All right, everybody, and welcome to the Follower Brand Podcast. You know, every now and then I get a chance to go north. And when I say I'm going north, I'm going way north. We're going up into uh Canada. We're going to talk to a couple of friends of mine I just met not too long ago. And I've just been very, very infatuated with some of the things that they're what they're doing. And I want to make sure I understand people understand this that most people have the right message, they have the right offer, but they just show up a little too early or a little too late, meaning we're talking about timing. So today's guest, we're building a framework around solving that exact problem. So I'm going to introduce Craig Elias. He's the creator of Trigger Event Selling and the and the co-founder of helpastartup.com. And Brandy brings a lot of that. So this methodology, this movement is built on knowing when the buyer is ready to move and being first in the door when they are. So Brandy, she's going to bring that builder's lens. She's going to turn strategy into sustained momentum. And together we're going to have this intimate conversation. We want to make sure everybody has a chance to chime in. So welcome to the Follow Brand Show, Brandy and Craig.

SPEAKER_02 1:25

Thanks for having us. So Grant, just so people know, help a startup out. It is a thing that we I don't know what it is, but we have to say it all the time. So helpastartupout.com. And we just put up the chat bot this weekend that pretty much will answer any question you can throw at us related to having a startup and solving this problem around timing.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

Man, so help a startup out. Now, how many times do you hear the help help somebody out, right? Everybody wants everybody, especially when you're just getting started, you have a great idea. Everybody, I got this great idea. I think it'll help people, but we really don't know what that mountain of challenge is going to look like. I'm looking at Brandy's face right now, like, uh-huh, right? Right, right. You know, you just don't know what you don't know.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Yeah, we always talk about the local maxima problem, Grant, and it's this idea that you hit the top of the mountain because you made to the top and you look and you go, Oh, the sun is up there. And that is the journey of entrepreneurship. Every problem you solve, there's always another peak. So that's why I'm laughing.

Trigger Event Selling Explained

SPEAKER_00 2:29

That's you know, that's my book. I wrote a book, just came out last year, based on five mountains, right? It's called the Brave Framework. It's first like it is the brave path to authentic leadership, but it's exactly what you just said. Because after you achieve a certain plateau, you've achieved a mountain. In my world, it's brain identity. But now you've got to deal with resilience. I call it the mountain of resilience. Then you got to go to authenticity, then you got to get to visibility, then you got to get to execution. And these are all, you know, successive mountains. Now I'm gonna pivot over to Craig because Craig, you you wrote this book, in which I when I looked at that, I said, you know, he's because I've been in sales 35 years, right? So I I've seen a lot of different scenarios, and and I've heard a lot of people talk about their sales methodology and things like that. But you're talking about trigger event selling. Tell us a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_02 3:25

Yeah, so one of the things that Brandy and I know is that if people are happy enough with what they have, they're not going to change. So there has to be this gap. And Olivia Wong in Vancouver talks about a three-point difference between what you have and the competition has, or what they use today is. And the challenge is way too often we try selling to people that are happy enough with what they have. They use whatever it is. It doesn't have to be the same way of solving the problem, but they're solving a problem one certain way. And it's not until they have some event that creates one of two things. Either A, their expectations go up, or B, the performance of what they use goes down. And now that difference is three points or more. So if you ask someone on a scale of one to 10, how happy are you with what you use today to give you a seven or a less, those are the folks that are motivated. We talk about this in our, you know, the different types of uh market, like the Tam Sam SOM, and we call it the SMM. Maybe I'll let Brandy take that part and then we'll we'll go into what some of those specific events are.

Finding The Motivated Market

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Yeah, yeah. They're TAM intent. You got my intrigue, my curiosity, the whole audience just leaned in if you can feel that.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

Yeah. So uh when we talk about TAMSAM and PSOM, it's the total market size. When we look at what your total available market is, uh, what your serviceable addressable market is, and then what your obtainable market is. What we found is entrepreneurs really struggle to focus. So we go, well, who's that motivated market that you can service? That one that you can actually reach. So we call it the SNOO or the SMM, if you will.

Love The Problem Not Solution

SPEAKER_00 5:01

You know what you just said, the momentum. That, you know, I haven't heard that that terminology before. I've heard about the town, right? Your target addressable market. Then you have your serviceable addressable market. But that that motivated market, man, who would not want to sell to a motivated market that really wants to chime into what you do? Now, both of my guests have these shirts on. You've got to see these shirts. If you come up in the screen, look at that. Love the problem, not your solution. That right there, that's the gotcha. I think a lot of people, and I I I talk about this a lot myself when I said you've got to understand your audience better than your product or service, based on what you guys know about loving the problem, not the solution. Tell me more about that.

SPEAKER_02 5:55

Brandy, you want to go first?

SPEAKER_01 5:56

Sure. So we can't take Clayton for fame for these shirts. He's actually come from Ashmoriok, who built the lean canvas. So shout out to him for that. Uh we we evangelize the lean canvas as much as we can. Uh, when we talk about solving a problem, really the way that I like to frame it is through the jobs to be done framework that uh, you know, Clayton Christensen made super famous. But to distill it down, are you a painkiller or are you a vitamin? And that is one of the hardest questions an entrepreneur has to answer because we solve our own problem usually when we start a business. So the whole goal is like, well, of course it's a problem. I have this problem and I want it fixed. So it makes sense that other people will, but we have to go out and validate that it's such a problem that other people are trying to solve it today and they're not happy with what they have. So if we built something called problem bingo, and Craig, I'll let you talk a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_02 6:47

Yeah, so problem bingo is when you look at the problem that you solve, the question is how many of these characteristics does your problem actually have? Because if it only has one characteristic or two, very often what happens is people put up with that. So it's not until this problem begins to become more of a problem because what you solve is bigger. Now, Brandon, I'm trying to remember the six.

SPEAKER_01 7:17

Ah, okay, let's see if we can do it together. So if it's urgent, popular, growing, frequent, mandatory, and expensive.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

Oh, you can say that again. Say that again. Real because those six people are I can hear them, I can see them writing this down. Say that again.

SPEAKER_01 7:34

So the urgency of the problem, urgency, the popularity of it. So are lots of people talking about it to their friends, yeah, growing. And I think it's growth in two ways. So is it getting worse and worse for me over time because I'm not solving and because I ignore it, it's gonna be a bigger problem. Or do more and more people have this problem that they're just walking into all of a sudden, right? So now we've got this new AI tool. Are more and more people having problems understanding what this is? Then we also have mandatory. So is it something they actually have to solve, or is it just kind of a nice to have? Uh, when Craig and I talk about this, we talk about the laundry chair as a great example. But your clothes born once, but you're too lazy to hang up, and so you just have this mountain of clothes hanging somewhere in your house. No one's ever gonna actually pay, probably, to have anything to fix that problem because we just do it and we put up with it. It's not something we actually have to solve because we'll just shove it in a corner when we have people come over. Sometimes our treadmills become these things, right? We also talk about expensive problems and it comes in three. So we always think of cost coming from cash, but we also have effort and we also have time. So, are people spending a lot of time here to try to solve this problem? And then frequency. So, if I only have to have this problem happen to me once a year, I'll just put up with it and I'll just deal with it. I bump into it every week, every quarter, every day. Now all of a sudden it's like, okay, now this really needs to get fixed.

The Window Of Dissatisfaction

SPEAKER_00 9:06

Now you've you've dealt into this, we've got the framework down. You also talk about that window of dissatisfaction. Because if you look at those things, that window of dissatisfaction, how dissatisfied are you? Are you willing to take your hard-earned cash and throw it at that problem, right? Right, right. Is that what you're talking about, Craig?

SPEAKER_02 9:27

That is that is part of it. And here's here's what we know we know that there are three different places. So people are happy, status quo, window of dissatisfaction, thinking of changing, but they're so busy solving other problems they haven't gotten to this problem yet. And then there's this searching for alternatives. So now they decided what problem they want to solve, and how they're going to solve it, they go away and do something. So the thing is, the first event is something that makes people want to change. So now they linger in this window of dissatisfaction. And they're not actively doing something about it, but in this phase, they're starting to define what the problem is. And it's like when you buy a new car and you see it all over the road. Now all of a sudden you've got this problem on your mental radar screen. You start seeing all these things, all these different ways to actually solve the problem. And what most folks miss is that first piece is so important because that's when you define the problem. And if people define the problem differently from the way that you would define the problem, you never even heard hear from these folks. So, this is one of the reasons why Brandy and I. So we have a shirt that we're gonna get made, and it's called Learn Before You Earn.

SPEAKER_00 10:44

Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_02 10:46

That's so key. So what's happening now is you gotta find a way to be when you start a company or you're far enough along. You, the founder, need to be doing the stuff that's outbound. Pick up the phone, talking to people, having conversations. So often, what happens is people try to move straight towards marketing, but they have no idea what actually works.

SPEAKER_00 11:08

Man, what you said there. So I see this over and over again as I gauge with uh potential clients and they want to get straight to what I call visibility, to your point, like uh marketing. Remember, my braid is a it's a framework, but they have to be done in a certain order. Otherwise, guess what? You can have five letters, B, R, A, V, E, but if those five letters aren't put in the right sequence, they don't make any sense, right? You just just gabobbled. So if you want to start with V, which is this visibility, you're not gonna get you're never gonna spell braid like that, right? So you have no identity to your point. First, you gotta understand your story. But that second part, that R, and I love that R, what you what you're talking about is do your research. You've got to do your homework and understand the market that you're looking to influence. Both of you have really nailed that that down, meaning you gotta step back from you know, you're in love with your signing solution, whatever it may be, but really look at it from the other lens. Look at it from the other lens. Like there's somebody out there right now that's like, look, I saw that problem with people throwing their clothes onto that chair. I don't understand, Brandy, why people you know aren't buying millions of these things because everybody has that problem. But to your point, is it worth, is it worth that that monetary component, right? Is it worth, or that timing component, is it worth my time, energy, resources to to actually, you know, move that problem to another level? Or maybe it's not it's not a really a real problem at all. It's really down the list of things that I really need to deal with uh today, going back to that painkiller and that vitamin, which I I've heard that same thing that makes it competitive. If you're in pain, you're gonna want to get out of pain pretty quickly. You know, all those other things get out your way, like, look, let's solve the pain first and we'll figure out if there's a better way of doing it. But right now we're gonna get that out of the way. But a vitamin, I take my vitamins every now and then. I I should eat rice, you do those things. But I don't know if uh, you know, if I don't do it, um, there's gonna be you know some mass emergency around it. I I I I don't think so. But those two things are very, very important when you come to your whole point around trigger event selling, because the moment that trigger happens, the moment of dissatisfaction, that momentum to solve the problem, you got to be visible at that point, right?

Marketing Moats And Cheap SEO

SPEAKER_02 13:35

Yeah, so I think one of the things that Brandy and I have figured out is instead of telling people what you want to say, the question is how do you tell them what they actually want to hear? And you know, that's one thing, but it's also something that they need to repeat. So as we talk about Brandy and I, this whole idea of go to market and things called a moat, M O E T, how do you protect your market? There's a process which we call a marketing mode, so that you can find a way to create that place that's yours, and you can find a way to own that competition. So I'll let Brandy talk about the marketing mode, and then we have one example around one of the things we teach. How until AI came along, we were getting like 200,000 hits a month just by owning that domain name.

SPEAKER_01 14:23

Yeah, so a marketing mode is a really good way, I'll say, to get cheap SEO. So you don't need to be an expert in marketing. You don't even need to know what SEO stands for for this to work, which I love. And the whole goal is you want to be listening to your customers when you're talking to them and say, what are the two to three keywords that you would use to describe my product or service to someone else? And listen for those words to be repeated back. Even when you're pitching, this happens often when Craig and I are coaching, someone will say something continuously, and we're like, I keep hearing you say these words, like, right, Grant. I keep hearing you say brave. So we don't know, do you go to the website and go, hey, I've got this idea. I'm gonna use two to three words and I'm gonna put it in as an actual domain name and see if anyone uses it. And what you can do is take that plain language and then redirect it to your product's website so that when people are looking for you, you become the de facto standard. And we like this because you get to own the dot com, which makes you look pretty legit.

SPEAKER_00 15:22

This is what see you're going into that digital world. This is the I think that one of the biggest differences. I'm sure you both can appreciate this because before you, you know, you're building a business, you're really you were thinking, I'm talking about the 1980s, 90s, whatnot, brick and mortar, foot traffic, maybe a little TV ad and uh something on television, but now this digital world, understanding the language of the uh the internet, especially that's been now 25 years, but understanding the language of mobile, social, and now AI, artificial intelligence, because that's gonna give you to what you call that visibility world, right? I see Craig like, uh-huh. So if you don't understand how to speak the language, not only the language of your customer, but the language of the platform. We're talking about SEO, search engine optimization. But a lot of people are like, Yeah, I remember that, but guess what? It's changing now with these LLMs because where are people going for their information? Are they just going to Google first to get these 10 blue links, or they're going into their chat GPT, they're going into their cloud, they're perplexed, and they're getting information and direction. This is the game changer in a lot of different ways, don't you think?

SPEAKER_02 16:42

Totally. So, the example I'm going to use is when Brandy and I decided we wanted to take what we've been doing for larger companies and make it more relevant to startups, we created something called a sales canvas. And then we very quickly realized, in having some early conversations, that people were telling other people about it using the term traction canvas. So, luckily enough, we went away and the domain name was available, the social media handles were available, we're able to get all that stuff. And what happens when you use AI, if you own the dot com domain name, automatically people assume you are the subject matter expert in that space. So instead of trying to compete against everybody with good old-fashioned Google AdWords, how do you find the people that are motivated that are in this market? And you know, we talk a lot about success in retail being location, location, location, but success outside of retail is something completely different. Brandy, do you want to tell them what the outside is?

SPEAKER_01 17:41

Totally. It's focus, focus, focus. Focus on one customer type in one geography with one problem.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

See, now you're getting to where that change, that change in philosophy, right? And the psychographics, you say location, location. Like, hey, you had to be in the mall. Remember that? If you're not in the mall, no one's gonna buy your your your retail, or what you call that that domain authority, which I call brand. You know, if you don't have if your brand is not in the place that everybody is at, you're not going to uh get the kind of traction that you're looking for. But now that has just changed, right? It's changed. So to your point, I love how you just I I I call that domain authority. You you create an automatic authority if your URL says that traction.com, traction sales.com. You're like, wow, you know, I'm gonna go.

SPEAKER_02 18:40

It's interesting when we think about this between Brandy and I, there are when when you're thinking of these events that make people all of a sudden decide they want to change, yeah, they come in three flavors. They come in the visibility flavor, awareness. You try to tell people you're better, you're faster, you're cheaper, right? But that seldom works. Um, sometimes it's when someone has a bad experience, but the hard part is you can't always learn about that. So we tend to focus a lot on what are the changes inside our organization. So, and I'm you know, focused mostly on B2B. We do some consumer package good stuff, some other stuff in the B2C space, but in the B2B space, it's people that are new in their job. Guys and gals that are new in their job that are going to spend a million dollars or more in their first year. I think the data says something like 90% of them will spend that million dollars in their first 90 days. Wow. But in order for them to make that purchase, they need to justify the purchase to somebody else. And that's why Brandy and I have this acronym we call RIPES around how do I help people justify? Did you say gripes? G-R-I-P-E s? No, no, G, but that would be really good. Maybe we just created the right new one, Brandy.

SPEAKER_01 19:54

This is why we do this. It's RIPES.

SPEAKER_02 19:59

You want to tell them about RIPES, Brandy?

RIPES And Purchase Justification

SPEAKER_01 20:01

Yeah. So I'll go slow this time in case people want notes because this is always a gangbuster. Uh, when Craig goes through this. So the whole reason why people justify a purchase comes in these five pieces. So they might be trying to avoid risk, risk avoidance. They might be trying to make themselves look good. So having a good image. All right. We have P for productivity. So they might want to be increasing productivity, or they could be decreasing expenses. And then we have E, which is for your environmental, social, and governance, which can cause people to want to go in that direction. And then we have S for simplicity or speed. And these are the ways that people will actually rationalize that purchase. And so we always go, people buy from heart, mind, and then wallet. And so this mind piece is that ripe sachronym that they're going through of hmm, can I actually go and tell my wife or husband or whoever even justified it myself in my bank account that this is worth it?

SPEAKER_00 21:02

These are interesting. So you got it down to it, because that's that inner work that you've got to do. But like you just said, if you're gonna spend a million dollars of somebody else's money, right? You've got to justify and show your expertise, right? Like you know what you're talking about. That this I usually, if you're gonna spend a million, you're trying to make 10 million or something to that effect. You're trying to, you know, increase the uh amount of uh revenue from that spin. Um in a changing market, it's constantly changing. So there's gotta be also some stress uh in that world. There's gotta be some anxiety uh that's in that world. And and when you when I when I heard you know trigger events silence it, those are those are some of those triggers. So somebody's like, wow, I got a lot of anxiety right now. I gotta go sell Craig on me and Brandy's idea. And I gotta understand, you know, I'm already wowing up because. Do I know my product and service enough, or do I understand their problem enough?

ICP Clarity And Seven Second Sales

SPEAKER_02 22:04

You know, I'm not so this is why we have something called a seven-second sale. So if you can figure out what the problem is, and if you know what the ICP is, then you can go to someone and say, Hey Grant, um, we have a really simple way to reduce, avoid, prevent, minimize, eliminate whatever that problem actually is. But part of this is making sure you have a really good rock solid understanding of who is your ICP. And that's how why Brandon and I came up with this process we use called bifurcation to make it really easy to do that.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

I see now I gotta help my understanding because not everybody knows what ICP is. You got to define that for them.

SPEAKER_02 22:47

Branding.

SPEAKER_01 22:48

Yeah, so we use the language as ideal client profile. Sometimes it's called ideal customer persona, all these things, but we like client profile because we're talking about economic buyers. When we go to B2B or in other places, you're selling toys to kids. Sure, they need to appeal to kids, but you have to appeal to mom and dad because they're the ones that are going to pay for it. So we want to make sure people are focused on the right buyer.

SPEAKER_00 23:11

See, this is important what you said. I think a lot of people we don't we misstep here. What I thought, especially in the entrepreneurial world, SMB world, small business owners, again, they understand their product or service. To your point, that toy is for a child, but the buyer is not a child, and they may or may not um understand the full value of that toy because the uh child's gonna take that toy, they use their imagination, they see it differently. The the parent might say, you know what? This is a great way to make sure that Johnny and Sally play for the next half hour and I can do something different. Maybe that's how they view it. So there's a different value system there. Am I on the right track?

SPEAKER_01 23:57

Totally. I also like to joke about drum sets, right? Like if you're a parent, you're never buying your kid a drum set. But if you're that fun aunt and uncle, maybe you are just because mom and dad pissed you off.

Bifurcation To Narrow Your Audience

SPEAKER_02 24:07

We need a we need a different name because there's there's something called a funkal, but do you call them a fant? I don't know what he what you call them. But I want to go back to a couple of things. First of all, I want to go back to the the right piece. Yeah. Just asked around simplicity or speed and and the data, the last time we saw data, the data says that 37% of the time, the person who is easiest to do business was with the person that got the business. Because people had these little slices of time to get stuff done. And if you can help them make forward progress in those little slices of time, you're off to the races. So one of our little pet peeves, I think more mine than Brandy's, because I rant about it on a regular basis. Brandy just, I don't want to say it sucked it off, but um, if you don't give me your cell phone number and your email signature, as far as I'm concerned, you are a loser. Like you've got to find a way to make it that easy for someone to call you or text you or do whatever. We have this thing we work with, it's called Ohio. Only handle it once. And sometimes Brandy and I are having a conversation and we got a question, we're like, let's just text this person and get an answer. And literally 30 seconds later, it's done. But if I didn't have their cell phone number, I wouldn't be able to text them. It's amazing how that actually happens. But I want to touch on this thing called bifurcation. This is the way that Brandy and I divide an audience in half. And if you do that three times, you get down to this 12.5% of the marketplace that's much more likely to be your customer. So the first time around we did this, it was for a CPG incubator. And it was a lady selling chemical-free cleaners that most people will keep underneath the kitchen sink. And her approach was, I'm going to target parents. And what we said was, that's too broad. Remember, Brandy says solve one problem for one customer type and one insurer, one geography, figure out what that is. So the question, the first question was, who cares more about chemical-free cleaners underneath the kitchen sink? Moms or dads? Data says moms. So we divide the audience in half. We can spend our money way more wisely finding a way to do some sort of outreach. Second question then became well, these uh moms, do these moms have one child or more than one child? And uh Brandy talked about the R and RIPES, the risk avoidance. Guess what? Moms are way more risk averse with their first child than they are with their second child. They don't love them any less, they just worry about them less. So we know it's moms that have one child, the ones that are more risk averse. And then when we think about one more, the last question that we got to was how old was this mom when they had that child? Over 35 or under 35. Data says over 35. So all we did was ask three simple questions where you can't say both, right? I'm not gonna let you have ice cream and cake for dessert. You have to pick one. And we were able to very quickly go models with one child who had it over the age of 35. Now we just need to figure out where they hang out. This is the way that we think about how do we get down to this ideal client, individual profile, right? So that's a business to consume.

AI Tools Without Losing Relationships

SPEAKER_00 27:14

No, that I like how you did that. You just turned that down, distilled it so you can get to that real golden image. We call it in the in the digital, the golden image of that individual that truly can take advantage of your product or your service that you have. We're all you know, we're skirting around this subject, but it's it's it's the elephant in the room because what you said right there is how do you utilize data. We're in a world of data, we're in a world of information, we're in the world of intelligent technology or AI. Now, because you have this tool and you haven't talked about you're you're deploying an AI chatbot right now, because people you want people to get to information quickly, to get them involved, to satisfy some curiosity. So when they come to you from that human-to-human interaction, it's more meaningful. You you you've kind of like, all right, to your point, you you whittled it down. If they've got to this point, they are in my zone of of uh where I can help them, right? Right. Talk to us how you feel AI now as a tool, tool set is is helping you to do the business that you have.

SPEAKER_01 28:24

Yeah, so really great question, Grant. And I think it's really important that we stick on that human side. And that has always been, I'd say, the drum that Craig and I beat on is like business is about relationships and people. So don't hide behind the technology. And that's kind of where we always hammer on the marketing, too, right? It's don't hide behind digital ads, go and talk to your customers. So, what I really want to make sure entrepreneurs know, especially on the early stages, is the relationships you build with your customers are super important. And Craig and I talk about this through the word propinquity. This comes from Charlie Green's research. You must just spell it, Brandy. It's a little bit of a harder language word. So it's P-R-O-P-I-N-Q-U-I-T.

SPEAKER_00 29:11

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_02 29:13

I I think it's like Mickey Mouse, P-L-O-P-I-N-Q-U-I-Y.

SPEAKER_01 29:22

The Mickey Mouse Martia.

SPEAKER_02 29:26

We're gonna digress. The the reason I know the Mickey Mouse thing is I used to have a teacher, I think she was an English teacher. Her last name was Fernio, F-E-R-N-E-Y-H-O-U-G.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

So the idea is that you want to help people feel close to you. And we've seen this data in um businesses when COVID was happening, when people were away from work, the people that showed up in the office got raises and promotions more often. And so we want you to be that entrepreneur that gets thought of. And sometimes, especially when we're selling in a B2B world, people aren't ready for what you need yet. And that's just the hard cold fact. And lots of people give up that. They'll be like, I tried it once, I emailed them, they didn't answer. They don't, they're not interested. But we forget that people are busy solving other problems and doing other things. So building a relationship and being there, when Craig talks about those trigger events, you want to be that person that when they're in that window of dissatisfaction, they call and they go, Hey Grant, you're the guy that I know that talks about the importance of resilience all the time in leadership. And I'm having a hard time with it and I don't know where to go. What should I do? Being that person is so valuable for when they're ready to make that purchase because you're the trusted individual for them already. And we build trust not by being the smartest person in the room, but by getting things done and building intimacy. So asking questions and leaning into your customers are super important. So I know we went on a total left turn on the tech conversation, but I think it's important that No, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 31:00

Well, because the tech now to me has morphed into this just part of the fabric, right? The tech has always been an enablement tool. But you said some things that the audience needs to understand because this is happening even right now. Even I think uh Open AI and uh their their CEO just came out because because they're starting to lose the narrative, meaning this human the you know, people are starting to push back, meaning, hey, you're you're deploying a technology that's going to replace me, and this is becoming the narrative, and then so there's a lot of negativity out there around the use of AI and what you do. I I'm always on that same boat that you just said. I've been at technology so long that I realize that it's a great tool for enablement, enablements, not replacement, right? Just like people, how many people call on the phone and they get voicemail? Voicemail means it's a delay. You know, all right, I gotta go through this whole thing. I'm not getting to the person I want to get to immediately, and I've got to kind of kind of qualify through this thing. We got we we put up with it, we don't really love it, we we deal with it. Um, and but if we don't get our answer uh pretty quickly, then we really don't like it. So people are using that AI as like, you know what, I'm gonna put this interface in front of you, and you got to deal with this first before you deal with it. I see this in airline industries, I see this in a lot of retail. I don't like it. I think they they're missing the boat when they do this type of thing. You can't even talk to LinkedIn directly, you can't talk to Facebook directly. You you you haven't this is a social platform that's very antisocial in its in its customer service in my own. I see I see Craig over there, like, you gotta jump in, Craig. What do you what do you think?

SPEAKER_02 32:45

So it's it's funny. I'm thinking about um AI and how can it work in your favor? Um, one of the tools that Brandy and I are a fan of is something called Spark Rockets, created by a guy named Scott Ford, who lives in Boulder, Colorado, where Brad Feld lives. In fact, he used to be the CEO for Techstars. And you simply enter a one-line description about your idea, and it will do an entire 12-page go-to-market strategy for you, completely on the fly. And what I think about this thing with AI putting people out of work, here's what the data actually says is that when the economy takes a turn for the worse or unemployment is higher, more folks become entrepreneurs. So I think, in some respects, for some folks, hopefully, it becomes an opportunity. And tools like the chatbot that Brandy and I have at helpastartuut.com and what ScrapFort does with Spark Rockets, those are the things that help you get over the hump. Like the the worst part is the first part. In fact, we have a term. Brandy, you want to tell them what SFA stands for? Totally.

SPEAKER_01 33:51

So this is so important for entrepreneurs because they don't want to release anything until it's perfect. So we go, now you need to get your SFA out there. And it's your shady first attempt or your shitty first. I've been there, done that.

SPEAKER_02 34:05

So it's like Brandy talks to me when I'm when we're working on something, it's like, make it exist. So we started with the chatbot, make it exist. Now it's like, let's make it better. And that's the process. If you can just start with something, and then it just gets better. And one of the things that Brandy and I do, we use something called unmovable dates. So we find something that makes us have to get something done. So, Grant, today was an unmovable date. Because we've been working on this chatbot for a little while, and we're like, okay, we got to get this as perfect as possible for today. Because if we miss the opportunity today, it might be weeks or months, and other things always become more important. So, this is another one of those events. We talk about trigger events. Yeah, this is an example of a trigger event. This becomes something where people have to get something done by a certain date.

Personal Brand And Being Known

SPEAKER_00 34:58

These are all important things because we can't get around the what we call the tech conversation. Or I think that's where we're at. Where does it play? Where do we put it? Where does it give us the best bang for our buck and helps the whole ecosystem around? I think that to me, that's where we're at in a in a total uh deployment of it versus novelty. Yes, you can get you quick information, not always correct information, but it's information. But it'll be good, you know, it depends on, and you have to discern if that's good information or bad information, how you want to deploy it. And it really depends. So there's a big to your point, big curve right now on gap, I would say, in the um use of AI and and how do you deploy it effectively in your business? Now, to your point, it makes it a point where you don't have to hire as much, or you don't have to hire for that particular thing because it's not really moving the needle. And I can take my human capital and then make that more uh valuable for me. You will, Craig, and I know Brandy, you are as well big into personal brand. You are ranked on LinkedIn uh very highly uh in what you've been doing. I think in Canada you rank globally uh as well as your B2B expertise. So you clearly understand personal branding. And so the question becomes how does brand authority change that timing equation? And does being known shorten that window of uh or that trigger event that's happening?

SPEAKER_02 36:35

So I think this is hard because what happens is way too often we get started down a path, and there's always these things that go on behind the scenes. Like one day out of the blue, you get a phone call from someone, hey, you know, my boss was in this event where you spoke and he remembered you, right? And that's why I'm calling you. And the one thing that Brandy and I have, and I'm pretty sure you picked up on this already, is that we have this energy and that people come to us and say, Hey, can you come talk about this? We talk about all kinds of things. I'm like, well, what makes you pick us? Because when you finish, people go away and actually do something. So part of the brand can be the fact that, you know, we tend to wear the same shirts. That's one of the ways. Who's that guy and gal that always wear those shirts that are the same? Sometimes it's this one. We have one that's about Alberta Tech. Um, we're working on our own, but it's all about how do you find a way to be remembered? There's something. And Brandy touched on this piece around propinquity, and uh a lot of it really is for me and for Brandy. It's like, how do you find a way to put things in the volunteer section of what you have in your LinkedIn profile so people can see that you did stuff for the blind, right? That you play piano, you were a soccer coach, you were a scout leader, you drive a Zamboni, that thing that makes outdoor ice, although it did not been to Tim Hortons, just for the record. So these are the things where people actually bond is when Brandy talks about this intimacy piece. And I think one of the opportunities is when you're doing outbound calling, is you phone on Mondays in the morning because it's either on someone's list of things to get done or it's not, or you phone on Friday afternoon and it's either gotten on their list throughout the week or been on their list all week. But when you phone those folks on Monday morning, don't just say, How was your weekend? Ask them a question like, what did you do this weekend? It's like, oh, you went hiking, where did you go? And you talk about a place, and all of a sudden you got something in common. And then, same thing on Friday afternoons. What are you doing this weekend? And you find these things in common. That's part of this way that you establish this brand. It's not just about the professional piece, but it's about the personal piece and having someone just like you who does the same thing. So, Brandy and I have dogs, love to hike. Uh, I realized a little while ago because I finally read all of Brandy's LinkedIn profile, that she has a chainsaw ticket. Like, and I'm like, hang on a second, when I was 17 year olds, I got a chainsaw ticket. We've known each other for a decade and never knew that, right? But as soon as you put those things together, all of a sudden there's this connection that goes beyond just business.

SPEAKER_00 39:17

I love that. What do you what do you guys say about that, Brandy?

SPEAKER_01 39:20

Yeah, I think uh that is the biggest piece when we talk about brand is consistency. And this is something that I think Craig is really strong at is he uses the same sound bites very often when he's out and talking. And that helps him be memorable. And I think that's super important uh for anyone trying to build any kind of brand. It's not about the logo, it's not about your tagline, it's not about what you name your products because no one's going to remember that. What people remember is how you made them feel, and they're probably gonna forget your name. So, how do you be findable? And that's where these sound bites come into play. When Craig talks about this, call on Monday morning and call on Friday afternoons and ask, what did you do this weekend? Don't ask why questions, it makes people defensive. He says that all the time consistently when he's out and about. So everybody kind of I'll say evangelizes Craig's message. When you go out, you go, Yeah, don't use why questions. It makes people defensive. And it's a bit of a mic drop. Sometimes entrepreneurs get into this, well, I need to convince you or explain. And it's super simple. Keep it easy. Uh, what do we say, Craig? Simplicity on the far side of complexity.

Founder Fridays And Free Resources

SPEAKER_02 40:28

Yeah! Well, and here's what's also interesting. So, what you might notice is in the background, Brandon had the same thing. We're both big educators. Yeah. So we have, you know, pretty much anywhere we go, we've got books that we have in the background. In fact, um, we have something coming up in May, the first Friday of May, May 2nd. Brandy, what day is that? May 1st. May 1st. May 1st coming up. Yeah, so we do this free series called Help A, sorry, uh Founder Fridays. So Founder Singular, Fridaysplural.ca. And what we host at the beginning of every month, the first Friday of every month, we find an author, we buy a hundred copies of their book. I've got it here, Craig. Yeah, okay. Oh, look at that. That's a good advertising. We then read the book. We pull up what we think are the best parts on the book. We host a free Zoom call that anybody can join. And if you live in Canada at the 45-minute mark, we'll give you a link. You we'll have to ship a free copy of the book anywhere across the country in Canada. We also then let the audience ask questions of the author. So now it's direct interaction. And all of the, almost all, we had two where we didn't get permission. Almost all of the now we're done 39 sessions, we're on 40 in May. All the recordings of all but two of them are on that website, founderfridays.ca. So almost any topic you want to learn about, you can listen, not just to the author, but for two smart folks saying, This is the best part on the book. Here's 121 that talks about six types of problems. When you get your copy of the book, go to this page, and we make it easy for people to digest large chunks of content.

SPEAKER_00 42:07

Well, you gotta get not not, of course. I got this famous point. I want you guys to do my book. Take my book, read it, put it out there. That would be wonderful. I I I couldn't resist that that moment. I was like, wow, is that what you gotta do? Whoa, you gotta get my book. And I got another thing I thought was interesting, and I I found this of interest to me uh because of what is happening in in our world in a number of different um ways, uh I I would say. And one of the guys that does a lot in this world is uh Dan uh Martel. Are you familiar with Dan Martell?

SPEAKER_02 42:49

No Dan Mattel very well, yes.

SPEAKER_00 42:51

Oh, you do? Okay, okay. So he's he's got this thing going on with buy back your time.

SPEAKER_02 42:57

Really well. Not knowing, but know of Dan Mattel really well, yes.

SPEAKER_00 43:00

Well, you know, you know of him, you know what he does. Uh for the audience, he's got this book. I think. Well, he talks about buy back your time, which is the most valuable thing you can invest in. And it's about right action at the right moment. And you know, most people they never figure out when the right moment actually looks like. I think you you you chime right into that with you know your trigger event, what you're talking about, you're talking also with the helpastartup.com. All these things out, excuse me. Out. I gotta remember that. Out. I now now know what now it's now it's burning to my memory, uh uh, because uh it's there because this is so important when you understand the the correct use of time and the momentum. I'll never forget that part. The the the you know, we talk about TAM and decimal market, but that momentum, man, when you can identify with somebody who's in the right momentum or moving towards. You're you're the thing that you can solve. I think that's so powerful. So I guess the question becomes: if you say you know Dan Martel, why why do you follow him or why is he interesting to you? And how do you feel like you guys come together?

SPEAKER_02 44:16

I have some thoughts, Brandon. Do you have any thoughts? Do you know Dan well enough to ever have a have an opinion? I have one.

SPEAKER_01 44:20

Yeah. So the one thing that comes for me, and I'm bouncing off of this, but we interviewed Jenny Blake, who wrote a book called Free Time, and she talks about kind of updating the Eisenhower matrix, if you're familiar with that, where she talks about delegate, automate, or eliminate. When I hear of the buyback your time, I know it's not quite the same thing as timing, but I think that's also super important for founders to know is you just don't have to do everything all the time. And I think that's why we talk so cleanly on focus of what we do. It's about spend your time in the things that actually bring you value. We see this in marketing. People be, well, I'm on Facebook, I'm on X, I'm on YouTube, I'm doing all these things, and I'm so exhausted, don't even have time for my business. And goes, quit doing all these busywork things and find the thing that catches fire. And then how do you use technology to automate what you have? And how do you grow a team to help you delegate?

SPEAKER_02 45:10

So that's a time on that. So this is this was one of the big distinctions that Brandy and I worked on. When you look at the traction canvas, there's a learn section, there's an earn section. So one of there's two mistakes the founders tend to make when it comes to sales. They either try to get rid of sales too soon or they try to hang on to it too long. So within that, buying back your time, we teach people there are a few boxes, five boxes in particular, you need to do on your own. So think of this like founder-led sales. And once you've got this down in something like a traction canvas or a playbook, you can then go hire someone to do that part of the job, which is then the earn part. Because when you're doing this all on your own, there's only you. But you know, if I get to a certain point where I figured this out and I have it documented in attraction canvas or a playbook of sorts, now I can hand this to Grant and Brandy, and all of a sudden, now I got two people doing this instead of just documented it, yeah.

Telling Founders The Hard Truth

SPEAKER_00 46:10

So here's the last question I'm gonna ask you, and I think most one of the most important things. How do you tell a loving parent? And I'm in this case, the loving parent is the business owner that their baby is ugly.

SPEAKER_01 46:28

I'm laughing because Craig and I have different answers to this question.

SPEAKER_02 46:34

You go first, Bandy, you go first.

SPEAKER_01 46:37

So I like to try to ask them questions to let them get they're on their own. We'll say sometimes Craig and I pretend like I might be more of the good cop and he might be more of the bad cop. Um, but I think we're both, you know, I think the reason why we get invited to where we go is we're pretty honest with our feedback. So we actually ask entrepreneurs, how candid can we be with our feedback for you? Like, how thick is your skin on a scale of I'll say one to 10, Craig will go one to 12. Uh, like, how candid can I truly be to tell you? Because what we see happen is people launch products that nobody wants all the time. And it's even easier with AI. I can build an app in 24 hours without any coding. So people just keep putting stuff out there and then they get upset when no one's buying. And we know the data says that the number one reason why people don't or startups fail is because they don't need a market need. So we try to lead them there and be very focused. Uh, but I'll let Craig talk about how he does it because he's a little bit more of a spitfire about it.

SPEAKER_02 47:36

Yeah, so I have an opinion. A couple things. So, first of all, I'm a few years older than Brandy, right? So, what happens is you get older, there's like I don't, there's like give a shit piece in your brain, and I give, you know, I give a little bit less of the shit. But here's the thing that I've learned to do. I've learned to ask the question, Grant, on a scale of one to 12, so I'm a one to 12, I'll explain why. On a scale of one to 12, how candid can I be with my feedback? And it doesn't have to be a 12. So they say 12. I say, here's the difference. One to 10, I'm gonna give you feedback on the things you asked me to give you feedback on. The 11 and the 12 is the things that I hear, the things that you do, the things that you say that I think are reducing your ability to be effective. And I will give you unsolicited feedback. When you use words like basically or just like anything of that nature, being really candid. I think we do it out of love. We want to try and find a way to help people get there faster. I forget how or where, but we have this thing where we say that folks, and we do this when we do pitch coaching and when you're doing it as a group, be like, be helpful, don't be nice.

SPEAKER_00 48:47

Man, you know, and that's the best advice you can give somebody because the A, they're going to waste a lot of energy, they're gonna waste a lot of time, they're gonna waste a lot of money. And if you don't tell them, or at least from your opinion, right? You could be there's a lot of people that got successful, not everybody believing in Amazon, not everybody believing, let's just say in an HP. There's always gonna be those things. But from and what I what I've heard a lot from both of you is that you you're saying this is not my opinion, this is the data, this is what the marketplace is saying. Your likelihood or probability of success may not be as um uh uh uh aligned with what your ambitions are, right? And if you tell me again, this is what I find a lot of times. Well, how long do you think it's gonna take you to get there to your ideal state? Oh well, I'm gonna you know, I'm six to twelve months. I should be lying to say, you know what, it might be six to twelve years. And whoa, where are you pulling that from? You know, six to twelve years, right? Right. So, so so those things are so important. And you remember you're experts in your field. So when I talk to Craig, when I talk to Brandy, that means you've already been down this road. You've talked to a lot of different people. I don't think a lot of people understand this about yourselves that you're coming from a place of experience that you've kind of been down the road that they're looking to go down. You and you do you preference that when you had these conversations?

Better Questions And Better Research

SPEAKER_02 50:21

So I think there's something here, Brandy, about this because here's what I'm hearing on. I want to make sure we touch on this briefly. Just market research is different from customer research. And there are these unknown unknowns that you've got to find a way to get to. And I think Brandy would like to add something to that piece.

SPEAKER_01 50:38

Yeah. So Craig and I talk about the soft skills. So these are the 11 and 12 things that entrepreneurs have that we're kind of getting into, Grant, around this, right? Um it's like it's soft skills. So be flexible, be coachable. These unknown unknowns, we don't know what we don't know, but the people that have been there before you likely know. And this is one of the hardest things for founders to hear is to kind of take that pill and swallow it and go, oh, I don't know everything. Just because I've got a cool new idea doesn't mean that I'm gonna be right. And we usually, when we do presentations, we'll show a picture of a road that goes in two directions and we'll say, You have a choice when you're an entrepreneur. You can choose to be rich or you can choose to be right, but you can't be. And that is the journey of being an entrepreneur is learning how to say, Oh, I was wrong, or oh, I need help. And one of the best ways to do this is to avoid confirmation bias. So we see this all the time with founders, and we'll be we'll send them out. We used to run these boot camps for students, and we make them go interview strangers at the Calgary bus station or the train station or the library, just to try to understand who might be a customer. And we had one student group, and it happens every year, there's at least one that'll come back and they'll interview 27 strangers and then come to us and they'll go, three people told us it was a really good idea. So we know that we have the best business idea ever. And we go, what about those 24 other people that told you it was a bad idea?

SPEAKER_00 52:05

They don't count.

SPEAKER_01 52:11

So, so helping you really kind of keep yourself honest about that's important. And then one of the ways, Craig and I love to dig into this. If someone says something you weren't expecting, ask the question, what makes you say that? Get curious. Learn before you earn. The best skill set you can learn as an entrepreneur is learning how to ask really good questions to invite people to give you that uncomfortable feedback.

SPEAKER_00 52:40

I love that. Ask the question you might not like the answer to. I I I I I love that. Craig, bring bring us home, Craig.

SPEAKER_02 52:48

Yeah, so I think this is fantastic. Brandon and I we we do we we learn differently, we do things differently, and I think part of what the journey here is really important is if you want to go fast, you go alone. If you want to go far, you go together. And I think the journey that we're now on around this whole idea with this traction canvas and this whole help a startup out.com. Um, this is and our ability to get to folks. And and what happens is everybody gets speaker fatigue. If it was me for the hour or brandy for the hour, it's not the same when we go back and forth. And this is one of those things I think having a team allows you when you get stuck to not only get held, but it also means that people get to learn about the two of you. Because guess what? Some folks would rather spend time with a good-looking female rather than a wrinkly old white guy. So, you know, when you put different people on your team, that also that propinquity propinquity thing that Brandy mentioned, it applies to both of you. Yeah. And it's even better when you have some things that you actually do in common. We have a hike that we did last summer, and there's one place where it's so hard you need a rope. And we went and we took we put a brand new rope up because the old rope had had come down. And we've given numerous talks since then. Who go, hang on a second? I used that rope. I know exactly where you went. Yeah, these are the things that go, I'd rather do business with Grant, Brandy, and Craig than somebody who I don't know. So it's not about being liked and trusted, it's about being known. So find a way to be known, right?

SPEAKER_00 54:23

I love that. And and known and say and loved L-O-V-E-D. Like, I love that story. I love what he's talking about. It makes something because then you're in that circle of trust where you can actually share something meaningful. Like you're not going to be hurtful. You don't want them to do if you don't tell somebody up front that they, you know, you know, if you go over that hill, you're gonna fall over a cliff. Um, you know, who's responsible for that? You know, especially if you knew about it, you gotta let people know these things. So you've got to let I've got to let people know. You've got a couple things that you already talked about that you got coming out. If you've got anything that we need to know about that's coming out in 2026, um, that's important to you. And then of course, you got to tell the audience how to get in touch with you.

Financial Template And How To Reach Us

SPEAKER_01 55:08

Perfect. So we don't have this coming out now, but it's something that we released last year, Craig, I guess. So our whole shtick is we look at the innovation trinity for founders and we really look at the desirability. Do people actually want what I have to sell? And then people are asking us, well, now what? So we built something uh that's a three-year financial analysis template that will do all of your cash flow, income statements, and balance sheets with all your charts, graphs, and KPIs to help you actually see if you'll make money at your business or if you'll lose money. So this comes into that whole is my market big enough? Can I make enough money at it? Is it actually worth going to the bank to try to get a loan with this thing? So that's a free tool that we've done. You can do it in 20 minutes. Uh, we have a free tutorial that walks you through it. And I think that's kind of the 2026 piece is going to be our chat bot. So we're trying to figure out can this actually help you out uh and and help point you in the right direction so you don't have to wait for Craig or Brandy to call. And no matter where you are in the world, and no matter what time of day you're doing this, if it's two o'clock in the morning, because that's when you're doing it, you can still get your house.

SPEAKER_02 56:14

Good point. Well, and and I think what's also what's really what I love about this financial analysis template, A, it started off simple and Brandy wanted to add all these features. And I was like, no, no, it'll make it too complicated. Well, now the assumptions tab is actually one of the most powerful pieces of this whole thing. Because the beautiful thing is that when you put in your assumptions, even just your first month's worth of expenses, it will actually tell you how much money you need to raise.

SPEAKER_00 56:35

Nice, nice. You gotta know all of these things that are so important in business. You just got to understand the race that you're about to run. And the optic, it's an optical course, right? And it's always nice to have somebody else. And what you just brought up, the uh finance, now understanding financial acumen or exactly how much money does it take to do, just like if you're gonna go from where I'm at right now in Omaha, Nebraska, and I'm going out to Miami, Florida. If I don't know how much gas it takes to get there, and how much that gas is gonna uh cost me to get there, and also time, uh it's gonna be difficult for me to get there as I get halfway down there and run out of money, right? It's like I'm not even near my my goal. So I love that tool. You got to use that tool, make sure that uh it's available. How do they get to your website?

SPEAKER_02 57:25

Help a startup out. O-ut.com.

unknown 57:30

Got it.

SPEAKER_00 57:30

Yeah, we only said that five times during the show. I I want to make sure that everybody gets it back. Helpastartupout.com. All right, Brandy, bring us home.

SPEAKER_01 57:41

Yeah, and then if you want to ask Krager any questions, if you've tried anything, best way, find us on LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_00 57:48

Go and send us a LinkedIn is my friend. LinkedIn is my friend. That's how I got a hold of Great, and Great put me in touch with Brandy. Now we're all one big happy family here. This is wonderful. I want to encourage your entire audience to check out all the episodes of Follow Brand. You can do so at five star BDM. That is the number five. That is Star S T A R D for Brand, D for Development, Informasters.com. I want to thank you again for being on the show.

SPEAKER_02 58:17

Brent, Brant, a pleasure. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_00 58:20

Please all mine. I gotta get up there to Canada. Gotta look for that rope. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There we go. Yeah, we'll take we'll take you for it.

SPEAKER_02 58:26

We'll take you for a tour. Sounds good.