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FuturePrint Podcast
#257 Can Print Ever Be Truly Sustainable? Industry Leaders Debate
This podcast is a webinar discussion hosted June 27 by Elena Knight and featuring: Steve Lister, Stefan Casey, Carlos Lahoz, Matthew Rogerson and Jeff Freeman.
To view the replay, click here.
To download the draft version of 'A Manifesto for Sustainable Print' click here
Show Notes:
When five leading industry experts gather to tackle the question "Can print ever be truly sustainable?", the conversation quickly reveals how complex sustainability truly is in the print world.
The panel explores how different players across the value chain define sustainability differently - from substrate manufacturers to printers to brands - creating fundamental misalignment that hinders progress. As Steve Lister provocatively notes, "Print is inherently a sustainable industry" that we've complicated with modern materials and processes that are difficult to recycle.
What emerges clearly is that data transparency forms the backbone of sustainable transformation, yet remains the industry's Achilles heel. Stefan Casey emphasizes that without clean, standardized data that everyone can understand and act upon, sustainability efforts will continue to falter. The experts agree that collaborative ecosystems and shared language are essential for meaningful change.
The conversation takes a fascinating turn when discussing responsibility. Should consumers bear the burden of sustainability decisions? The panel largely agrees that expecting consumers to navigate complex sustainability messaging is unrealistic. As one panelist notes, "I can't believe we still allow businesses to make products that are unrecyclable." The upcoming Green Claims Directive, with potential fines of 4% of company turnover for misleading claims, signals that regulatory pressure is mounting.
Most compelling is the introduction of the Sustainable Print Manifesto - an industry-wide initiative aiming to create alignment around sustainability best practices and establish a shared "North Star" for the entire value chain. This collaborative framework addresses design, compliance, and innovation while acknowledging that one size doesn't fit all.
For print professionals concerned about navigating the sustainability maze, this discussion offers practical wisdom: start by measuring your impact, focus on design (which determines 80% of environmental impact according to the Ellen MacArthur Foundation), and embrace collaboration rather than trying to solve problems in silos. Join us in making print not just sustainable, but a positive force for environmental change.
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FuturePrint TECH: Industrial Print: 21-22 January '26, Munich, Germany
So hello everybody and welcome to Future Print webinar today. My name is Eleanor Knight and we are here today to talk about sustainability in print, and the big question here is can print ever be truly sustainable? And I don't think it's a really easy question to answer, and I think that's why we're here all together. I've got a fantastic panel with me today. I've got five people here with me today. I'll just introduce them really quickly. So we've got Stefan Casey. He's the head of ecosystem at IOTT, specializing in digital innovation and packaging. We have Matt Rogerson Hi, matt.
Speaker 1:Matt runs a consultancy called PackScout which supports businesses across the entire packaging value chain in navigating sustainability. We've got Jeff Freeman, who's a senior director of sustainability at Simpress. We have Carlos Laos, who is responsible for the sustainability strategy at HP Industrial Print, and then we have Steve Lister, who is a global sustainability consultant and a recognised thought leader within the industry, and I'm hoping you, steve, will poke the bear and sort of make things a little bit more interesting. So we're going to dive straight into this session. So, firstly, welcome and thank you to all my panellists for joining me today. It's a real pleasure to have you on board. I want to direct my first question to Matthew. So, matt, what's your definition of sustainability? In print.
Speaker 2:My favourite definition of sustainability, which I think really helps for print or for packaging, is the United Nations Bruntlands Commission from 1987. So nearly 40 years ago which is still holding true today, defined as meeting the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs, and I think that's a very good way of looking at it. So not taking away from tomorrow to sort out today.
Speaker 1:That's a fantastic definition and this one's for Geoff, please. So Geoff from perspective. What does that mean in your part of the value chain as a printer?
Speaker 3:Yes, I think. In some ways we think of it similar to the definition that not just gay, but we have to operationalize that a little bit more, and so so Simpress has 11 customer facing brands and manufacturing plants all over the world, and so what sustainability can mean in each different region can mean a little bit something different. So if you're in a water-stressed area, water might be a much higher, more important issue when it comes to sustainability than, say, plastic or something else. But we also think that across all the Sint Press businesses there is a series of things that are probably important and relevant for everybody, and so, as we try to operationalize that, it fits into three categories, and so for us, that is making sure that we're being responsible with the forestry products that we buy and that we sell, make sure that we're keeping an eye on and being responsible what plastics we choose for both our products and our packaging, and then also carbon emissions and making sure that we're reducing at a really significant rate.
Speaker 1:Okay, fantastic. Thank you, and, Carlos, from your perspective as a manufacturer, how does that fit in with you?
Speaker 4:Yeah. So as a printer manufacturer, I like to think about sustainability as technologies that are able to deliver the maximum value for a print job in the most efficient way. So it's not only reducing, but it's also the value side of it. The value in the sense of we are delivering faster prints or we are doing personalized prints or targeted prints that are allowed through short runs. So this is the value side of it. And then, of course, the efficiency as well. So it's efficiency with using better materials and inks. Efficiencies by using or reducing the operational waste that we generate, both in the operations but also in the inventories, and also in pure efficiencies in the energies that we use in the in but also in the inventories, and also in pure efficiencies in the energies that we use in the inks that we use for printing. So it's this combination both of maximising the value while improving the efficiency.
Speaker 1:OK, and basically, obviously you need data to sort of substantiate all of this, and I think that's where I'd like to bring stefan in. So, stefan, when you look at this whole, um, sustainably across the whole value chain, what do you think about the whole data perspective and the collaboration perspective?
Speaker 5:yeah, okay, yeah, data is key where you can't get anywhere without data, but it's. It's clean data and that's the achilles heel. You know we don't have it and I've seen so many brands, retailers, organizations fall over themselves because the data is not in there. You know there's great old saying crap in, crap out, but you know apologize on the french, but it is really true but it's more about the collaboration, the experience. That's more about collaborating with data sources, making sure that we all have the same turnkey solution and that and that lies within all of us, or what we're trying to do here, and you know.
Speaker 5:But data is key and there's so many systems, there's so many integrations. We need to have the same system language. We need to have the same language, which is not there yet. You know, as a, as a collective, as brands and retailers with all their acronyms and I've just come back from a summit from two days and it was crazy. You needed a book to guide you through all the different terminology and that's down to data collaboration, these kind of collaborative ecosystems let's bring in some of the words that have been bounding around in the last week and and we need these ecosystems to work across the brands, the printers, the public, the private, you know, and it all needs to come together and there has to be systematic change. There really does. We have to validate it and it has to be ethical, otherwise we're never going to get anywhere. We need honesty, we need these collaborations and Otherwise we're never going to get anywhere.
Speaker 1:We need honesty, we need these collaborations and that's why we're here today, Absolutely, and I think what I pick out from that is that you said we need to all speak the same language. Obviously, you know, I've asked all you, you know from the different parts of the value chain what sustainability means to you. So we can't. Can we agree on one definition?
Speaker 6:Steve, what means to you? So we can't? Can we agree on one definition? I don't. I don't think. Well, I don't think we can because, unfortunately, sustainability evolves and, and and.
Speaker 6:What I mean by that and I'm going to add to stephan's sort of like acronyms here, so apologies for this is, if you ground it, sort of like in my world, where I come from global brands and retailers, I'm then working through the value chain, you know um chain with different companies. We started off a few years ago with CSR, so we had a corporate social responsibility piece, which it was a self-regulated thing, and you did your best to adhere to what you thought was sustainable practices for your business, got a few things signed, put them up on your website and it was like great. But now it's evolved into ESG with sort of like more environmental, social and governance pieces, and ESG is huge. It is so broad. Now you know you're now talking to print suppliers and they're having to look at diversity. You know the inclusion they're having to then speak with different stakeholders within businesses that they've never had to talk to before.
Speaker 6:So from a supply chain point of view, I can see how confusing it is because all of a sudden, sustainability just isn't about inks and a few bits of substrate. They're having to really broaden their horizons and having to have a lot deeper, more confusing conversations with stakeholders that they've never had before, and that's why forums like this are invaluable to try and to try and bring people along on this journey, to say, yeah, it is confusing, but you know what to end up. Where Stefan said is his collaboration is key. You can't do it on your own, so let's do as much as we can to take all of our knowledge and put it back out into the industry to help everyone on their sustainability journey.
Speaker 1:Because absolutely yeah it's a tough one because you, I think you know it's if you see this massive mountain, you think, okay, you don't really know where to start, and I think that's why collaboration is key and, and you know, even just having people together who have different perspectives, um and and different inputs is is really helpful. And I think you know, if you, if you say you know, or some people say that their print is sustainable, it just once you then probe and dig a little deeper, it can get a bit messy because what, what does sustainability actually mean?
Speaker 6:well, the green claims directive with all due respect is going to start kicking in and and people are going to have to substantiate those claims. So we can't say I'm an eco printer or I've got a sustainable substrate. You know people will have to start to substantiate those claims. You know, if a substrate is biodegradable, that's great, but it's biodegradable in one week, one year or a thousand years. So I think that's where the journey is now going to take us and and like you know, we've all said here slightly different pieces is, I think we've just got to start to understand really through transparency and also Stefan mentioned that as well as I think we've got to be more transparent. But once you're transparent, that also is going to give us some challenges as well.
Speaker 6:It does.
Speaker 5:It's going to open up everything and you've got to be ready for it, and I think I can't. I think we should start a top 10 of sustainability greenwashing, because I don't think people are aware of what's coming from this legislation and you can sense the panic that's bubbling under there, and this is why we're coming together for it and I can't wait. It's exciting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. And so just over to you, Jeff, if you don't mind. So how do you define sustainability success in your print shop?
Speaker 3:So I think I look at it two ways. So the first is, as I mentioned, we have targets, we have lots of sustainability targets, and so, again, just if I put my operational lens on, hitting the targets that we set out for ourselves is one way that I view success. The second part is, as we move into our businesses, are they actually meeting what the customer is asking for? And so presumably, growing our business, growing our profitability, and then at the same time, educating our customers so that not only do they make a more educated decision this time around when they're looking to buy from us, but maybe they walk away with a little bit more knowledge and then they continue to kind of propagate that. And so, in terms of the role that I think that the printing industry can play in sustainability, that's kind of how how I view it okay and, um, do you think the brands sometimes focus too much on how much it costs?
Speaker 1:maybe, matt, you can answer this because you're sort of in with all the brands and that because obviously it is about cost as well. It, you know, everyone wants to be sustainable and and it's great, but actually if it's going to cost you your business, it's difficult to achieve.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that in the In the conversations with the brands and the retailers come up and down the value chain and the surveys that have been running recently they've been running recently the thing that was most interesting is that, um, they might come up with a kind of top three of cost materials and regulation or cost materials and consumer trends, but, um, the thing that is actually underlining the problem is misalignment. So if you're not aligned, then it will come out as costing more or having the wrong materials or giving the wrong message to the market, and so the better way to look at it is making sure that they are aligned first. That will help the cost rather than focusing on the cost, which is kind of treating the symptom, not the disease.
Speaker 1:Okay, yeah, that makes sense. And Carlos, have you got anything to add there from sort of a technology perspective? Does it help, does it hinder?
Speaker 4:Well, technology it's a difficult question. So it's both things. Technology can both help and penalize sustainability, and this is because of this multidimensional nature of sustainability many aspects and then we progress in one direction, but then we are penalizing another one. I always use the example of the electric car. So is the electric car more sustainable? Okay, yes, it has runs on electricity which it can be generated on renewable electricity, so in theory it's better, but then reality is that it's not always generating or using renewable electricity. It has the battery problem. So you advance in one direction, you penalize another.
Speaker 4:In the print industry, we can have equivalent situations where we're selecting non-hazardous things, but then we are choosing a material that is PVC, non-recyclable, very complex material, to print on that.
Speaker 4:So the key, I think, for technology and how it helps sustainability is how we use it, or how we harness it. And it starts first and as a technology manufacturer, by responsible innovation, trying to innovate, having always sustainability in mind, trying to advance sustainability with every new generation. And it links to transparency, and we've talked about with data, we've talked about it, but we need to explain the good things but also the bad things. Regulations are forcing us to do it as well. Not so, but it's, it's part of of what we, what we need to to do. And then, in the end, coming back to my point before, so I'm I believe that that if technology aims to deliver a positive value, this is the, the key metric. You know how we can deliver this value that print has? No, we believe in the value of print. How we can deliver print, uh, in the most efficient, in the most efficient way.
Speaker 1:You know, this is how technology can enable a more sustainable print industry okay, and I think what matthew was saying earlier was the whole misalignment piece. Stefan, do you think that data can unify that, or do you think it would just expose it even more? I think that's the key question yeah, the yin and yang isn't there I mean?
Speaker 5:I mean on Matt's point, you know, you know we've all got brand experience and you know, I think sustainability and this came across quite a lot over the last few weeks and relative conferences but sustainability doesn't always have to cost more. Can we get that clear? You know, I think this is important. There's lots of new materials, lots of new process not to you inks. There's just not enough resources to validate it all. But actually, you know, with some of the things I've done in the past, they can actually provide benefits and they can be cost parity, cost neutral, but people are the blinkered, they're not looking at it. But if you're going back to the question, it is a yin and yang, you know, if you think about data and data experiences and how we digest that data and how we use it. So I'm a big fan of the experience and bringing in that human centricity. It's the glue. Yeah, we have to be transparent with it. It will drive action. We have to drive action.
Speaker 5:But it was really that connective tissue that binds the ecosystem a little yam, but the other side of it, it's going to expose so much misalignment. It's going to put marketeers and brand managers and regulatory managers into hard tack mode. You know it really is, because they're going to be perpetually panicked and what they can put on back, what they can say, what they can do, you know one man's green wash is another. You know, best launch and and you can't get away with that anymore and it's, it's going to come down and hard and that's why I think this sense of panic in there is really out there and it's a real tanky and exciting moment we're facing, where we're bringing everything together. We're bringing the inks and the materials and the regulation and, unfortunately for some people out there, you need the gun to the head. You need to have that put there and I welcome it because we're making the world a better place. Let's think about that.
Speaker 1:Absolutely so. I'm giving you the floor now, Steve. Any uncomfortable truths, anything you think we need to hear.
Speaker 6:No, I think the uncomfortable truth is inherently, the print industry is a sustainable industry. I don't think we can get, let's not get away from it. The print industry started off by putting lovely ink onto a paper substrate and it's inherently recyclable. Unfortunately, what the industry has done is complicated by bringing out loads and loads of different materials that are very, very complicated to recycle at the end of its life. Complicated to recycle at the end of its life. Now, lots of things that have to catch up with us. Recycling mechanisms in different countries have to catch up with us for the different complex materials that we use. But all the things I hear is, inherently, our industry is a good industry. It's way better than most industries as well. So we can't get too bogged down in the fact that we think that we're a really bad industry because inherently we're not.
Speaker 6:Um, what we do is humans end up making it unsustainable because we do silly things to things, we stick things on top of things, we laminate things on top of things, um, and that's what makes it inherently, uh, difficult. But to bring up a couple of points, because, um, some great comments there is is sustainably doesn't also have to cost more. I mean, we were doing some work before um with poppy, with the point of service association in the uk and ireland, and we took the top 10 um sign and display products and print products within sign, display and pls and we mapped them against old traditional products versus alternative and new products. 80 of them came out at price parity or cheaper than the old ones. The problem we've got is the perception is there and the perception doesn't go all the way up to these brand marketers and they see something and think, oh, it's going to be too expensive.
Speaker 6:But on the other hand, like Stefan said, the yin and yang to that is we then start to go back and go, yeah, it's a bit too expensive, and you go, is it? You might find a product. Like carl said, they've got some wonderful technologies that can maybe increase the speed. You can put bigger you know widths onto a printer. You might be able to lightweight something. It might be quicker to produce it. You might be able to then ship it quicker. Logistic costs come down all of a sudden. You might be making way more profit than you did before. But it's a con, it's complex and I think the easy thing is to say is is you know? We're unsustainable, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:I think the print industry is inherently sustainable as long as we adhere to some certain guidelines and we don't, do you know, make it too complex okay, and I, I reckon also, you know, when the end consumer starts demanding certain things, then the cost will get passed on to the consumer basically, or volumes will go up of certain things, which means prices will come down, you know.
Speaker 6:So if we've got to have to compete with mass-produced, you know, oil-based plastics, know at some point we'll have to get volumes of other things up. But we've seen here, we've got, you know, amazing companies who are working on different technologies, different inks, you know, and that's, and data to prove those sort of things. And I just think, as we go forward, it is complex but you know we've. We've got the will and we've got the minds in our industry to do something about it.
Speaker 1:But you know, we've, we've got the will and we've got the minds in our industry to do something about it, absolutely, and I think that really sort of leads us into the whole theme of misalignment again. So it's not the lack of innovation, really, is it, steve, that's happening.
Speaker 6:No, it's not. We've got water based inks, we've got wonderful recyclable materials. We've literally we've got everything. We've more than we've ever needed in our industry. We've got them right now, Right now.
Speaker 1:Okay, so do you think it just comes down to everyone trying to solve different problems?
Speaker 6:That's a good point. You know, unfortunately, everyone's going to be on a different journey path. Every brand and retailer is on a different part of their sustainability journey. Every one of those are on different legislations and accreditations. Every one of those have set different targets and then, all of a sudden, you come to this point where every single person is either on this level here or this level here, and it's so multi-dimensional that it's not a straight line. If it was a straight line, life would be very simple, but unfortunately, it's like a matrix and every single a three-dimensional one, and everyone's at different times, and that's what's lay layering in the complexities of where we are. Uh, unfortunately, some people are aligned to.
Speaker 6:I was in a meeting this week and someone was saying great, we've set all our targets for 2050 and you know, I sat there and realized that I would probably be dead by the time we get to 2050. So you know, what can I do to to affect those? And I think then the other point is is loads of people have set targets on 2030, four, five, six years ago, going oh, don't worry about it, it's 2030. And now they're all panicking because it, you know, they're realizing that to get things in place for 2030. You need them done by 2027. 28 that's only a year or so away, so we're starting to see a little bit of collective panic as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, absolutely. And Carlos, why do you think priorities are so disconnected then, in different areas of the value chain?
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's a topic that we've discussed now during our conversation, this misalignment as the key thing. Technologies exist, innovation is there. Why we are not aligned? I think one thing is communication. It's always complex in an industry in a value chain that is large, from raw materials, material manufacturers to oem and printer manufacturers, inks, printers, brands, marketeers, consumers and recyclers so it's a very long value chain where we are kind of a little bit siloed. No, this communication will be mandated by regulations. No, we will get regulations that are forcing us to share data across the value chain. So this will improve.
Speaker 4:But I think also, we've kind of worked in silos. So we've everyone worked in our individual silo defending maybe short term tactical interests. From a marketing perspective, I'm promoting my technology as opposed to my competitors because I'm better, and then I'm creating some tensions in my area. That is creating complexity, it's generating noise in the market and it doesn't facilitate this alignment. And I think to what the Steve's point were we are an industry that is very advanced in sustainability, way more than other industries, but then it doesn't look like that when we are having some of these competitive conversations, we focus on what's different rather than what unites us. And if we focus on what's different rather than what it unites us, and if we focus on what it unites us, we communicate more across the value chain. I think this is the way to go to really make significant progress.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And talking about the value chain, Matthew. So how would that sort of this, the impact of the misalignment, how does it affect the brands as such, do you think?
Speaker 2:uh, in a number of different ways, but the the main one is that if you have different departments with different goals, uh, and there isn't a uh single sense of purpose or direction from all the way, from the top of the company right through those divisions, it means every single project ends up being a kind of compromise or navigation to get it out, and all of that is.
Speaker 2:It might not necessarily be obvious to the consumer or their customer, but they'll sense it, they'll be like this isn't, it's inauthentic in some way, and so they react to it by not buying it or engaging with it or using it, and then the company's wondering why that's happened and the loop kind of repeats itself. So it's really important to have a single sense of direction or purpose. And then to what others have been talking about as well is communicate that clearly, because at the moment that's probably the the biggest issue is that the company is misaligned because all the different departments are in those silos doing different things, and then they're also not communicating what they're trying to do clearly to the customer or consumer. And if you can't transfer the ownership so that the person sees themselves using that product, they're not going to buy it, and the only way to do that is to communicate the quality or value or proposition clearly to them so that they want to do it okay.
Speaker 1:So I think what we really want to say is that we all need to sort of have a shared north star type of thing, where everyone sort of is talking about the same things, has the same values, um, and it's not as misaligned and as disconnected. So, jeff, how would you define a shared north star? Do you have an idea of what that might look like?
Speaker 3:um, so I think ultimately we uh and I'm going to tie my answer back a little bit to I. I've heard a couple of mentions, and I see in the chat about the green claims directive, I think there's a lot of misalignment, because ultimately, companies are trying to give customers what they want. If you don't give customers what they want not only related to sustainability, but all the other things that customers care about ultimately they don't buy your product and your company fails to exist anymore. And so what's happened in the marketplace is that customers are super confused about sustainability claims, and if you don't, even if you do have a clear purpose, as Matthew said, and you do try to communicate about sustainability In the confused marketplace, the consumer really doesn't understand anymore or always believe what you're trying to tell them At a minimum. There's a lot of confusion and it drives a huge gap between what customers say they care about with regards to sustainability and then what they actually do, and so I think there's a number of.
Speaker 3:When I say there's a number of North Stars, that sounds weird, but I think one of the considerations that I'm definitely thinking about is how AI is going to change some of the customer confusion and the way that customers are even going to interact with the brands that they buy from.
Speaker 3:And so, again, I don't know how everybody interacts with AI today, but, for example, there's things like perplexity shop that are going to drive the way that people shop in a way that they, today, might go through Google, they might go through AI chatbots in the future, and they may never interact with websites. And so now they just say, hey, I want to buy a garden hose, it has to be black and it has to be 50 feet long. They don't care where they get it from. And so now the things that the customer might care about, like sustainability, can start to enter into that conversation and be drastically clarified for people in a way that historically it couldn't before, clarified for people in a way that historically it couldn't before. And so when I think about Northstar, I think Northstar is not only be able to become more sustainable as a business by doing things that I think there's probably some general agreement about if we can get our terminology right but also about how we reveal that to the way that people are going to shop in the future.
Speaker 1:Okay, really interesting. Does anyone want to add anything to that? That to the way that people are going to shop in the future. Okay, yeah, good point, really interesting. Does anyone want to add anything to that?
Speaker 6:yeah, can I just add that? Because, jeff, you bring up a really, really good point there about uh and you did as well uh matt, about consumers and what they think. We've seen reports that actually consumers don't even see sustainable messaging in stores and the point is it's's too complicated for people. And I'm not for one reason saying that consumers aren't intelligent you know, they're way more intelligent than I am but what you can see is is the messaging is just bombarding them, and Jeff brings up a fantastic point. What you get is what's called a value action gap, and what that is is people say they're going to do one thing. They go into a store, they come out and they've not done any of what they said they were going to do. But the problem is is, you know, when you go into a store and you see all this messaging about we are sustainable, buy this product because it's more sustainable, this fiber is better than this fiber it becomes a blur and, at the end of the day, just noise I guess just total noise, like we've been in advertising for years.
Speaker 6:So, um, I saw one quote the other day and I'm desperately trying to remember who said it, but I'm going to try and find out. But basically what they said is don't expect consumers to save the planet, because it's not their job, it's not our job. I still can't believe that I can go into a retail environment and buy a product whatever it is and it's unrecyclable, and I have to landfill it. I can't get my head around that. I can't believe that we still allow businesses in the world to make products that are unrecyclable and there is no way of either fixing them other than throwing them into landfill or incinerating them. I don't get that. So I do believe it's not the consumer's responsibility, it's industries, it's. I do believe it's not the consumer's responsibility, it's industries, it's businesses and it's governments to ensure that the legislation and force people to start taking action and do things it's got to be whose fault is it?
Speaker 6:that I go and buy a loaf of bread and the packaging it comes into is unrecyclable and it has to be incinerated. It's not my problem unless.
Speaker 1:I change yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 5:Yeah, and hopefully, you know. We've got the bids for the pro coming soon and as things change and where that lens, will you know, hopefully go on it, steve. But I agree, you know, I've come from producers, shall we say manufacturing, and the responsibility should lie with those, you know we're just not there as consumers or citizens, if we uh, we don't have to consume the product.
Speaker 5:But you know, it is true, you know, and we shouldn't be having these things in our streams, but these businesses have good lawyers and good at lobbying, you know. That's why the delay is there, um, but we should be doing the right thing and I guess that's you know why it's important to have that kind of expectation and and it does transcend more than businesses, it's definitely not the individuals. You know we need that clarity of intent and that cross-functional buy-in and the feedback loop we're going to continually learn. There are so many different materials out there we cannot physically test them in in time, and there may be that golden piece of material that you know adds value back to the soils and the grounds that we have, but we haven't really found it yet. So I guess there's a lot there and that's why it's such a complex and overwhelming part of what we're trying to do in the bigger ecosystem of what's happening with all the taxations and the EPR and everything. It's crazy.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I disagree a bit on the consumers being completely out of responsibility. So in the end it's a shared responsibility, I think so it's the brands producing better products. Of course the consumers have a responsibility with all their product.
Speaker 5:The over consumption, it's a problem and then, yeah, we have to make it easy for them, carlos you know, we can't have complex and that's where our communication and print comes in. And there's a big thing on we can't remove or greenwash. You'll have all this mixed messaging. If there is a clear instruction to the consumer, it has to be clear, it has to be simple, and I think that's where the packs. Now, if I pick up any packets, I can't even read it without my third pair of glasses.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and I think consumers have lost a bit of confidence in sort of believing what is being said, because you know there's all this wishy-washy stuff like oh, we're going to go carbon neutral in 2050 I mean, that doesn't mean anything to me and this is where regulations I think are helping, not so the brands need to improve, the consumers need to have the information to pay, to make informed choices, and then the regulators are the ones that need to to enforce this relation between the brands and the consumers.
Speaker 6:I just want to pick up on a point. Carlos, You're absolutely right. I'll amend what I said there. Consumers can do something by not overconsumption. You make a great point. You're right with that bit.
Speaker 3:And if I could add, there too, I think, consumers. They're the feedback loop ultimately as well, and they can't do their role as feedback if they're confused yeah and so.
Speaker 3:But I yeah like I, I want to make sure that I think, I think they definitely play a role, not just on an over consumption, but on regular consumption. Um, they have to provide that feedback loop. But if they can't provide the feedback loop because they're confused by greenwashing and everything else, then that is where industry, uh, has to play a huge role in making to unconfuse them.
Speaker 5:And you're right, jeff, because we've got these things in our hands and we can instantly put feedback out there. You know, and that's what everyone's feeling. But you know, and the technology is there to make it easier and I, and I think it, you know, it's our job to make it easier. So you know, you've got the whole kind of advent of adoption of qr, digital codes that gives you that access to feedback and that further educational piece which we're going to need. You know, as the recycling streams get more complicated and my bin tax goes up even more, I need to need to know why, and and the power of print and communication becomes even more important with technology and that is the power of print.
Speaker 6:We can communicate messages via print and I think you know the Green Claims Directive is going to start to focus people, especially, as you know, we're hearing now that the fine is 4% of turnover. There are rumours that it even might go up to 10% of revenue turnover by making a Green Claims Directive and actually getting it wrong and be fined. Well, I'll tell you what that's going to focus a few people, even if, even if you go on the lower end and say four percent, four percent of a small company is quite small.
Speaker 6:Four percent of unilever's turnover or cola or heineken's turnover yeah, it's pretty big so so hopefully I can see some questions and some comments in the web chat. It is complicated. Greenwashing is complicated. We are moving into green hushing and people are starting to now not make claims about things because they don't want to put their head up.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 6:And they green crowd themselves. They hide within their industries because they don't want to say anything anymore. So it is complicated, but print has its place and print will always have its place to to get messaging across to people in an effective way way?
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and I think it's our sort of role collectively to sort of present something more solution focused. So how can we all get on the same page? And that brings me onto the sustainable print manifesto and Carlos. This is something that we've been working on along with Stefan, with Matthew and other companies who've pledged their support. So can you just give us a quick run through, carlos, about what the manifesto is and what it means?
Speaker 4:Yes. So we've talked about this problem of misalignment as one of the key things, the misalignment of expectations from consumers to brands and so on. So when we were thinking about, okay, are we all aligned, what is the best way of producing print? We are aligned in the definition that Matthew used at the very beginning Not use resources that then will penalize future generations. This super high level we are all aligned. But then, when we start entering into the details, this is where we start to diverge.
Speaker 4:So what we wanted to do is try to get together a set of thought leaders of this print value chain, the whole industry, the whole print industry together to align to the maximum level of agreement. What is the best way of producing print? Not the more sustainable way of producing print in a way that is easy to understand, that it becomes this North North Star that also Jeff and you, elena, were referring to. That really facilitates the communication. So when I need to explain my sustainability benefits, it's always within a set of agreed frame. When I need to ask my suppliers for a more sustainable print, I know what to ask for, so I know what to promote. I know what to ask for, so I know what to promote. I know what to ask for. So it's a clearer communication.
Speaker 4:So, getting this agreed view, we think it will facilitate this communication, but it also will accelerate innovation. It comes back to this feedback loop that Jeff was referring to group that that jeff was referring to. If, if we are all aligned on where we want to go, this will make progress more, more agile, faster, faster progress. So, with this intent this is where we got together a group of leading companies from this value chain of print and started to draft a first version of the manifesto. The first version was presented in April, as in the Future Print Leaders event. So it's now a public initiative and what we're working now together is in the review process to finalize, get everyone's input to make sure that we get all the perspective well reflected into a document that is developed by the industry. But it's also for the industry to facilitate innovation and to facilitate communication.
Speaker 1:Okay, fantastic. And why do you think now's the time to do this?
Speaker 5:is the time to do this, stefan is, you know. Fine now, uh, we're running out of time, guys. We really are, you know. I mean, I've just come back from a very frustrating week where, you know, you know, we're slowed down by regular regulatory pressures and there's people, changes and taxations coming through, everything's catching up on the bigger ambitions. But, you know, for years, sustainability, you know, in our industry, until 2016, and a certain blue planet and everything else we actually had a place at a table.
Speaker 5:It's been washed under the table and you take the greenwashing angle of it, but, but with the manifesto it's, you know, we're bringing in materials. We're bringing in it's. It's a draft. You know we're looking for more contributions, we're looking for more partners. This is, this is key, but it's stopping us solving things in silos. The print is part of the pack, guys. Let's talk to the materials. Let's talk to the converter. You know that's what we're trying to do here. We're not going to do it on our own. We want brands and retailers to be the really leading light here. We're there to get it right and take the pain away. We're there to learn together and I think that's really important. You know, it is a framework. We've got design, we've got compliance, we've got printing, we've got the digital angle. You know, we can test to learn, we can explore and I think this is really important and one size does not fit all we know that and we and that, and that is true.
Speaker 5:But let's get it right. And if we don't get it right this time, with the weather's the way it's going and the forest fires and everything else, it might be the last time to get it right, folks.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it really might be absolutely no, and I I think you know if someone did want to participate and how would they go about it, um matt, so how would? Where do they start?
Speaker 2:now the simplest is to uh download a copy of the manifesto and to join uh to uh, to to uh be. We're willing to kind of still look at the uh wording and make sure that people kind of understand how it would apply to their business and if there's anything that they would want to change about it. Um, but more importantly it's just about getting the kind of momentum of the companies that are willing to use this and implement this in their day to day and see the benefit of having a agreed upon definition and measurements and kind of direction to pull towards.
Speaker 1:The more people that agree to that and more people start taking those those steps, the quicker we'll be able to get there absolutely, and I think when you mentioned downloading the manifesto, so we'll share a link in in the um recording later, um, and send that to all the people who join the webinar so you can download your copy and read through and and just get in touch with with us and and discuss what you would like to add. Um, but if a company wanted to take one action tomorrow and this is to anybody what would you say to them? What can we do? What can they do tomorrow? That will make a difference oh, I'm gonna jump in.
Speaker 6:It was quiet, yeah, please not all at once.
Speaker 1:Don't answer all at once.
Speaker 6:It's a difficult question.
Speaker 6:I'll kick it off. It's design. Everything starts with design. The Ellen MacArthur Foundation said that 80% of the environmental and sustainable impact is determined at the early design stage. So if you get it wrong at the early design stage, you're absolutely screwed the whole way through. You know so, whether you are a global brand, a retailer or a marketing agency, if you get it wrong at that point and you give this stupid, crazy brief to your supply chain partners within the print industry, we're completely stuffed because it's already been designed for us. So I think we do have a part to play in it, but for me it has to start with design. If it doesn't, start there.
Speaker 2:You've got no chance. You literally have no chance. Ok, I'd go even further and say the two things would be alignment, but also time, because everybody is so short term focus that you then lead into the same problems.
Speaker 6:It's just talking about where somebody's cobbled together a design brief and then inflicting it for monday and we want it really cheap, yeah, and we've seen it all our lives and we you see it matt and you go, you turn around and go to these brands and retailers. You must be known about this marketing campaign for months and months and months. Why do you need it? Monday by nine o'clock. So I have huge sympathy for our print service providers. In whatever they are, they do get some crazy stuff thrown at them.
Speaker 5:Yeah, and the creative industry. You know, and I'm not a big fan of this free pitching, you know. I know cost is key, but free pitching comes with poorer ideas, you know, less effort. You, you know, and we've got to protect the whole chain, the supply chain, and we have to work together on it, and I am, you know, I, champion this anti-free pitching and I'm seeing it at the highest level. I think it's disgraceful. Um, we need to protect the industries and protect talent to actually give us the solutions that will matter.
Speaker 5:So, but no, I think, yeah, design fit for purpose, packaging, you know, fit for sector, all these kinds of things are critical. Trying to get a one size fits all just so it fits on my production line is not the way. Those production lines of the future, they're going to be modular, more agile, more dynamic lines of the future they're going to be modular, more agile, more dynamic, and we need to be prepared for that and we need to really scrutinize the whole value chain as well. There's a lot of waste in traditional ways of producing things. There's a lot of hidden waste that we're not even taxing on and not seeing as consumers or citizens, and I think the data and the clean data will come back and unpick, so be transparent.
Speaker 5:We can only win together if we start to share together.
Speaker 4:Yes, and if you ask what is the one thing and I agree, steve, that design is the main driver for sustainable impact but I think the first thing that I've done in my role as responsible for sustainability is measure, and it links to the data measure. Where are the impacts? And you get a lot of surprises. First is that you don't have the data, and then you need to scrutinize your suppliers, whoever, to get accurate data or even raw data that allows you to make a more informed guess. But then, when you measure and you know the things, this is where you can improve and then you will discover that, yes, design, it's a key contributor, but then it's the materials and different suppliers. So this is what I encourage everyone to measure and to get the data from your partners, not from your suppliers.
Speaker 5:But measure the actual.
Speaker 2:I think if we start measuring people's opinions, like we said, right at the sustainability goals with legacy equipment and trying to do something modern, with systems that are from the 1980s and you can't possibly be as efficient and optimized as possible if you're using, you know, floppy disks and kind of ancient technology and trying to achieve a kind of world-beating uh highly efficient print today. So there has to be a uh reduction or removal of expectations into that design and and uh process absolutely so.
Speaker 1:Um, I think we will now bring this to a close, if that's okay. Um, I've had a little look at the questions and I I'm not sure if every one of these questions has been answered. We've just had one more come in um, and I'm not sure if it's um, so the majority shall I just read this out and then whoever wants to sort of jump in and answer this question? So the majority of carbon impact comes from the substrate and paper print work. 80% is from the paper. Two sides engages with greenwashing and misinformation, but increasingly we see major brands asking for specific carbon impact for the print work they are purchasing. A new initiative, green print, has recently launched an online carbon impact tool for brands and agencies to use. Some print suppliers also can provide more detailed carbon impacts for their customers upon request. Will this be the way that the industry promotes its sustainability? Would anyone like to answer that?
Speaker 3:If I could jump in there.
Speaker 3:Yes please do so. I think it's going to be part of it. So obviously, again, I don't think that sustainability is always going to be the primary driver of any decision that a consumer or brand makes. It is one of the pieces of how they decide, and I think historically they were running into claims that they didn't understand, or everything was carbon neutral, when everybody kind of knew it was being driven by some questionable offset purchases and everything else.
Speaker 3:I think we are getting to the point where there will be comparable data between two options, and then the question is the ease by which the person who has to make that decision can make that decision between two or three or four different options, and so I have always believed that I don't think consumers are going to go to one website and find out the carbon footprint of this option over here and then go to another website and find out the carbon footprint of something over there. They might do that for price. I doubt that they will do that for carbon footprint of this option over here and then go to another website and find out the carbon footprint of something over there. They might do that for price. I doubt that they will do that for carbon footprint, especially if the measurement value the kilograms of CO2 or something is not something that they really truly understand anyways.
Speaker 3:So, in my view and it goes to what somebody said earlier, which is about not so much looking at where we are today but where the ball is going, I think the ability to compare two things is about to get much easier, and so, as much as people would not have used that sort of tool in the past because it would have required too much cognitive load, too much work, I think they are about to be able to do that relatively soon. Cognitive load, too much work. I think they are about to be able to do that relatively soon. And for those people that are more interested in sustainability, which will never be the entire, population.
Speaker 4:That will become a decision factor for them, and I agree with you, jeff, what you said. So what we will start seeing very soon is this relative comparison where you can compare two or three options and then you can decide on. So for taking decisions, for getting the actual impact, uh, in a harmonized, standardized way. This will take years and years 15, 20 years now in the future, where all the assumptions of the data is available. But if we wait until we have a very accurate measurement system to take the decisions, it will be too late. And so having a less accurate system that allows us to take some already decisions more informed than what we have today, that it's based on all these marketing claims, we are starting in the right path and in fact, it's one of our principles in the manifesto. I think it's the eighth principle. It's talking about data and measuring everything.
Speaker 6:We are actually starting to see decisions being made that aren't based on cost. So just to give you a quick example, I've seen procurement teams within global marketing activation companies who are starting to say hold a second, the cost of this from Far East is X and the carbon footprint is X, because you can now measure that with all of your shipping and materials, the one in local, maybe country or region is a little bit more expensive, but the CO2 is a lot lower. Now, once you start getting KPIs and targets set that way that maybe the driver is a CO2 reduction, then cost sort of goes away. And I've already seen it. I've already seen it within clients who are making business decisions about print and marketing and marketing activations based upon CO2, not cost. So that's going to be an interesting way forward if that becomes it too. So that's going to be an interesting if the metrics change.
Speaker 3:And if I could just hit what's. I think what you're saying, steve, is also when cost is either the same or close. So cost is always going to play a role. But when cost starts to get close and markets tend to produce that, then other factors tend to be a dividing line for people. Yeah, you said it better than I did, jeff. Thanks, tend to be a dividing line for people.
Speaker 6:Yeah, you said it better than I did, Jeff.
Speaker 5:Thanks. You've got to bring the P&Ls together. You know you've got a packaging budget, a print budget, a design budget, a marketing procurement. Bring them all together and look at the end to end. That becomes an easier sum and you can start to do the right thing. Definitely, yeah, fabulous, and on that, note, definitely, yeah, fabulous.
Speaker 1:And on that note I think we should wrap this up. I just want to say thank you so much to all of you. You've been amazing, it's been really lovely to talk to you, and I do think that there's obviously safety in numbers, but there's also knowledge in numbers, and I think the reality is that you know, sustainability is a journey, and I think it just takes all of us to get to the, to take this journey together, and small steps matter. I think we all need to start taking steps, no matter how small, and I think we just need to keep this conversation going. So thank you everyone, and I will send the recording out to everyone, and if anyone's got any questions, they can just get in touch and we will. We will answer those individually. So thank you very much, everybody thanks thank you bye-bye.
