FuturePrint Podcast
FuturePrint is dedicated to and passionate about the power of print technology to enable new opportunities and create new value. This pod features deep-dive discussions with the people behind the tech as well as market analysis, trends, marketing and storytelling!
FuturePrint Podcast
#265 Beyond the Barcode: How Connected Packaging is Redefining Print, Technology and Consumer Trust
In this episode of the FuturePrint Podcast, Marcus Timson speaks with Stefan Casey, Head of Ecosystem at io.tt, whose career journey spans design, packaging, academia, FMCG innovation and now the cutting edge of connected packaging.
Stefan’s story is far from conventional. From early days in publishing and advertising, through pivotal roles at Nestlé where he pioneered digital print and sustainable packaging innovation, to his current role helping brands embrace connected packaging, his eclectic background reflects a rare ability to bridge creativity and technology.
The conversation explores how connected packaging—enabled through QR codes, NFC and other technologies—is transforming packaging from a static wrapper into a dynamic digital interface. Stefan explains how brands like Boots, Madri and Moose Knuckles are already using packaging to enhance safety, improve accessibility, engage consumers and even meet regulatory requirements such as digital product passports.
Stefan is passionate about the power of collaboration, both within teams and with external partners, to drive positive change. He believes that bringing together champions, engineers, commercial and technical experts, and external collaborators is essential for success. For Stefan, there is no ‘I’ in ‘we’—because we are always stronger together.
Key themes include:
- The “buckets of change” reshaping print and packaging: environment, innovation, fit-for-purpose design and digital transformation.
- Why collaboration across ecosystems—not silos—is essential to unlocking cost savings and new value.
- The growing role of digital print in enabling scalable personalisation, interactivity and traceability.
- How consumer expectations around transparency, sustainability and security are forcing brands to rethink packaging strategies.
- The disruptive role of artificial intelligence, both as a threat to jobs and a catalyst for scaling innovation.
Stefan also shares insights from his work with the Manifesto for More Sustainable Print, an industry-wide initiative addressing the overlooked impact of inks and coatings on the environment.
An engaging discussion for anyone interested in the future of packaging, print technology, sustainability, and the intersection of creativity and digital innovation.
Listen on:
Apple Podcast
Google Podcast
Spotify
What is FuturePrint?
FuturePrint is a digital and in person platform and community dedicated to future print technology. Over 15,000 people per month read our articles, listen to our podcasts, view our TV features, click on our e-newsletters and attend our in-person and virtual events.
We hope to see you at one of our future in-person events:
FuturePrint TECH: Industrial Print: 21-22 January '26, Munich, Germany
Welcome to the latest episode of the Futureprint Podcast. Marcus Timpson here with me today. Really interesting gentleman called Stefan Casey who is Head of Ecosystem at IOtt. Welcome to the Futureprint Podcast, stefan.
Speaker 2:Fantastic. Thanks, marcus, for having me and, yeah, looking forward to this. I've never been called a gentleman before, but thank you for that introduction.
Speaker 1:That's cool, really happy to have you with us and I know your background, your story, your journey and what you're doing now. Obviously it all links together, but really interesting. I think you're a little bit different to some of our more of our print tech guests and we're going to find out more about why you're different and what um kind of um insight you're going to share as we go through the the um podcast interview. Um, starting at the beginning, really your career journey. That gives us some context and also a bit of a personal touch.
Speaker 2:So if you don't mind giving us a bit of more about your career journey, stephen, yeah, no, it is a what I like to call an eclectic mix of roles and experiences that are somewhat complementary, um, but have driven me down a path where, uh, yeah, it's been interesting and and I think, um, those who know me and and sometimes I do delve into this and and and people kind of go, well, you have done quite a bit, and there's some big decisions and big people in my life that have shaped my career, and mentors. But, yeah, I cut my teeth from the ground up, mate, and it's not one of these graduate roles that you know, you see today, which are even harder to get into, but it's really I didn't know what I wanted to do. I had three career paths in front of me. I was in hospitality, chefing, um. I love design and fine art, and, and that passion of art is is something that still sticks with me today. I've done everything from running around with pens and papers in montmartre my early youth, and um getting chased by the french because I wasn't paying the taxes to do portraits through two big corporate shipping murals for the Lexus Shell. So it was a real decision that I had to make, but I clearly went down a more design route and I actually did a product design and packaging design degree in Liverpool, john Moores so not the posh one, the old poly and it was one of the first of its kind in using a program called Solidworks which is now kind of industry standard.
Speaker 2:So I've got a technical background.
Speaker 2:I'd like to, I'd like to throw that out there.
Speaker 2:I do do technical but unfortunately I came out of the, the university, and not one single business had adopted that technology software solution and everyone was still using AutoCAD and I quickly had to adapt and I kind of went and had a mixture of roles, as you do when you start out, and I did everything from a toy design for kids through to working on a Pearson press, which no longer but selling advertorial space, and then designing it for a graphic publication, and that kind of eventually led me into kind of the press and print industry really, you know, really working for the NewsQuest and Trinity Mirrors, where you kind of cut your teeth on the presses, the design, remember those things called newspapers, markets, where we get the ink on our hand.
Speaker 2:You know I really understood and really embraced the kind of technology side of it and I was a designer, you know, and I really kind of took that experience and it really helped shape my interest points, because when you're in the press industry you tend to mix your skill set, so I was a photographer for some of the events and the sporting events and I'm gonna do the adverts.
Speaker 2:But it was really that kind of first part of technology disruption that kind of I experienced and this is going back some ways when ai agents weren't even a thing but it was a paperclip on Word documents at the time. You know you could argue that was the first kind of part of it, but I really did work with the print and magazine industry and we introduced and we were working on Quark then Remember Quark Everyone uses Adobe but Quark was like the editing paper software of choice at the time, but it was Quark and we had this plugin called Promoter and it was basically enabled consumers and customers to self-serve their designs. Just ring up I want a birthday message from my auntie May with some balloon clip art and it would automatically do it. So AI has been around for a long time. Technology been around, but she's been given different names. But that was the real, true disruption to the press industry because anyone who was in that part of artwork and department type setting, etc, etc. Within a month they were gone. You know we're talking hundreds of people and history repeats itself. I'll probably pick up on this again, but history does repeat itself. Technology does impact.
Speaker 2:But what came out of the ashes was three hubs up and down the country that basically brought the best of the best together, you know, the best designers, the best thinkers, the best creatives and I was offered one of these to kind of run in Blackburn of all places, which is where I kind of drew a line on things no offence to people in Blackburn, but I didn't really fancy that stint and I ended up taking a slightly left-wing role into a massive global agency, kpmg Nunwood, and working as a designer there.
Speaker 2:And that took me to London Leeds studios and that's where I really got that taste of big brands, big global FTSE brands, including some of my predecessor places of work, but everything from airlines to luxury to pharmaceuticals, you name it Top FTSE 500, then it went into 100. And it was really, you know, a baptism of fire because there's a different language there. I don't think you can actually get away with it now, but I had to pare down the accent. I'm a northern boy and they couldn't understand me and people probably think well, you speak okay after a few share beds.
Speaker 1:Sorry, it's just down in London, is it?
Speaker 2:yeah, so I did it. I started off in London and then I had the opportunity to run a little studio up in Leeds just by the airport and we kind of ran with kind of branded projects across packaging, design, marketing, research, development, consumer insights. It was a really kind of broad brush agency in terms of what it would cover, but it was always kind of brand led, brand and retail led, so it was kind of you know, new projects for the future. There was an incubator in there. I'd work with fintech companies, I'd work with startups and then I'd bring those startups to the bigger brands that would find a project. And it was just a really interesting learning and I was there for about five or six years and you know, it really did kind of sow the seed that I needed more knowledge, I needed more information and in that period I went from design into marketing and it was a pivotal point really.
Speaker 2:I got lucky. I came in as a designer and within eight months they were training me in marketing because the person who employed me moved on, a great guy, John McCambly. He took me in. I was two hours late for the interview but he still took me in. I thought that you could do that now. But yeah, it was an opportunity and I had to learn a completely different craft. You know who makes those design decisions, why are they making those design decisions? And again, it gave me an experience where it opened up a lot of doors and this is where I really started to build the network, the people, the relationships. To build the network, the people, the relationships. But also that first for technology, r&d, innovation, new technology, this I started to really see that, that digital part of me, this was a hunger that wasn't going to go away and it was going to really be a foundation going forward and I needed to feed that.
Speaker 2:And I had an opportunity then to go to an institute, an academic institute called Faraday For those who are true packaging technology, you know kind of advocates. They design sensory marketing and I had the real privilege of working with a professor, kathy Barnes, and her kind of thesis was the power of touch, haptic design, sensory design. So I really delved into that world of packaging. But more on the application, you know, why do these materials make us feel in a certain way? How are the properties working? And then, bringing that ink knowledge, the design knowledge, the technology knowledge, I found myself working more and more with big brands on front-end innovation projects, new limited launches, and it was there really that Nestle got me. This was my account with the Institute and the university and they made me an offer.
Speaker 2:I couldn't refuse the opportunity to actually see the end result. You know, instead of talking about what you could do, let's actually go and do this together and make the world a better place in design and sustainability. Let's actually go and do this together and make the world a better place in design and sustainability. And this is, you know, a fabulous company that's very, very bright people. I was literally a round peg in a square hole. I went to the R&D Innovation Center and Confectionery in York, which is where I still live now.
Speaker 2:I was thrown in the deep end. You know, I was the creative guy in a world full of scientists. It was tough and it was really tough. There was a lot of people wanting me to win, but it was also a lot of people thinking what is this guy doing? But it was that connectivity with that kind of real-world hunger of commercial, real-life problem-solving, getting stuff on the shelves but elevating the innovation, the digital, the material science, all the new kind of toys, the print, the ink, the decoration. So I loved it. It was the most creative job I ever had and I was doing digital transformation first. So print your face on a KitKat with Chris Tong, the ultimate packaging. I don't know if you ever remember those boys and Chris and HP. I love HP because the guys there really did accelerate digital transformation for me on the printed pack. You know, personalization, customization in the early days, and I always like to say a little bit more than just putting a name on a label, doing something a little bit more creative. And I guess that's where you know I really carved out the digital kind of credential which I'm still pretty much driving forward with new partners.
Speaker 2:Now side, you know, the war on plastic, as I like to call it, you know, but plastic can be fantastic as well. It's about fit for purpose design, you know. It's about appropriate design and appropriate material use. But we were first, you know and I say we because that's huge. I may come up with ideas, I may come up with drive, but it's the engineers, it's the material scientists, but it's the engineers, it's the material scientists, it's the people on the line, it's a team effort and just pleased to be part of it and part of the leading somebody.
Speaker 2:So you know when you know Kit Kat went in paper, you know, if you look at quality street moving to paper, you look at industry first, high scale commercial paper run of chocolate bars, it all. It all started with the guys in confectionery and now you see these solutions everywhere. Um, and that's great. You know I can say I've been part of that, I'm still part of it. I'm still seeing things being launched that, yeah, I remember doing that workshop even now. You know, because I was so far ahead of the time of the guys that sometimes it's just too soon. And yeah, I mean some people, depending on the lens. You know, with the power of any brand that you work with and Nestle is huge and the great people that were working there that put faith in me and Bruce Fennell, for those who know, was a great mentor and manager, who's now left the organization and retired.
Speaker 2:But we have to take a leap of faith. Even in big businesses like but we have to take a leap of faith. Even in big businesses like this, you have to take a leap of faith. You have to find the right partners, the right rogues, the right collaborators, whether it be suppliers, whether it be individuals in the business, even internally, you need to find the right team because you're going to hit with no, you can't do it, the cost is too much, no, it's too difficult, the timing's not right. Because you're going to hit with no, you can't do it, the cost of too much, no, it's too difficult, the timing's not right. Sometimes you just do it and beg for forgiveness afterwards, not always, but uh, yeah, it does, it does happen, um, but you know, I like to think I was a kind of new breed from this day when they're in the r&d, and now they've got more people with that kind of mixology of skill set.
Speaker 2:So you know, the the jack of all trades, as they say is has got its place now. Because if you're so into the one line detail, that one channel of information, at some point probably ai will probably take it. So actually being able to connect the dots and actually bring it all together is a very valuable skill set. That, I think, is a route to success and that's grounded down with that eclectic background. You know, I've done printing, I've done packaging, I've done design, I've done behavioural sites, I've done the academia bit. I'll probably go back to the academia bit, because I do miss the holiday. The holiday is really good, but again, that thirst and knowledge is always going to be there and I'm always learning and that kind of brings me full circle to where I am today, I guess.
Speaker 1:Yes, how long were you at Nestlé then? Because obviously you did throw in chefing as well and I thought, well, that's interesting, because chefing and not that I've done it. But I know chefs, the pressure, the creativity, creativity, the project management, the skill base is, is multifaceted, isn't it? High pressure, environment, yeah, high demand for quality and an assumption of creativity within that too, and everything else. That's probably a brilliant, a brilliant training ground for for how your you know career has developed, and in different ways, spinning different plates, thinking differently, working on all of those sort of things, and a willingness to try new things and to be judged for it. And that's key. Isn't it a lot of being judged for something? When you've thought of it, you believed in it. It's high risk, both on a career level, but high risk in terms of the business. So so you know, there aren't many people like you, I suspect, um, out there. So thanks for that kind of I told you it was eclectic.
Speaker 2:I did warn you.
Speaker 1:It was. It's cool, yeah, and it sounds very, um, like I said, interesting stuff. So you're now at IO dot and, just for those unfamiliar with itt, tell us a bit about the mission of the business and perhaps how's that, how's that working in terms of enabling innovation in packaging through connected technology, because obviously that's you're the intersection of creativity and technology. Really you embody that as an individual, so I assume that role is kind of what you're doing. So I assume that role is kind of what you're doing at Iott.
Speaker 2:Yeah, look, in all honesty, I guess Iott Internet of Things, let's call it. You know that's where it meets. There's a bit of a play on words there. So the Internet of Things is where that comes from, and it's actually borne out the loins of an agency called Sharp End, which is an agency that was known for its disruption the industry, first users really, of what we know as the QR, the 2D code today. But they were the ones that were really disrupting with brands and retailers on campaigns in the marketing space, in the brand space. And it's actually where I met them was through actually bringing them into Nestle, because they were edgy, they were disruptive, they had swagger, they were working with great brands and retailers and even in the world of Nestle and FMCG and coffee it's got great brands, it's got great stories, but we weren't as edgy. So we needed to understand the landscape. So we brought the guys in. We were working with colleagues of mine in the global design department at the time in Vavé and we were curating what connected packaging could be, what it meant for the business, how do we leverage it. And it was there really that we started to pilot it against some of the brands and live and learn and can it work. And of course, it can work against some of the brands. And live and learn and can it work. And of course it can work.
Speaker 2:Connected packaging now, or smart packaging all the different names you call. It is part of the ecosystem, is part of what we have to do with all packaging today, because it's part of packaging, it's part of product, it's part of experience. But my role is is exactly what you said. It's not much different to what I was doing at the brand I. I'm curating partners, but not just any old partners. I'm curating partners that understand the digital landscape, that understand the value proposition, that understand that we have to evolve, we have to embrace technology, we have to move forward, and not everyone has the energy to do that. Marcus, if you can imagine my role previously and what it is now is bringing maybe five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten partners together to get one output on the shelf. It takes an immense amount of energy and trust and relationship development and collaboration. I'm doing exactly the same now, but I've had 20 years in industry, plus 20, I don't count anymore. But I know the partners, I know how success looks like, I know what works and now I have a completely new playground to play with, with all these brands and retailers that are part of our network and some of them get it. Some of them are on that beginning of the journey, some of them are learning and educating, but now they they see that they have to evolve.
Speaker 2:There's an opportunity to embrace the technology of connected packaging and experiences and products to understand the consumer, the citizen, to understand your customers better. And and I think this is why there's been a pivotal shift, because it's not new news to me I know connected packaging. I remember the guys at cpi durham, I remember ericsson over in sweden and you're playing with printed electronics on pianos, on, you know minority report style kind of um serial boxes and it was all in the academic labs and it's taken probably 10 to 15 years to get something serious and it is serious. Now you know you can literally save lives with this technology if it's all plugged into it in an appropriate way. But yeah, it's head of ecosystem, it's about partnerships, it's about collaboration and it's bringing that knowledge and that expertise to what is a tech-led organization and an agency and a creative agency. That's pretty trailblazing what it does, but it's willing to push the boundaries, it's willing to say no, it's willing to show them different ways of doing things.
Speaker 2:And I needed an organization like that and I needed to work with clients who appreciate an organization like that, because that's how they're going to get ahead, that's how they're going to make a difference.
Speaker 2:You can go slow, you can wait for legislation, you can wait for the gun to the head and do the minimal viable product or viable proposition all these abbreviations that big organizations use. But we could lead and I think that's where I'm looking for partners, not just in the, the print, the carton board, the design agencies they're all great partners I can have but finding the right brand champions who just were as frustrated perhaps, or see the opportunities where they could accelerate with some of their brands and challenges out there. I've developed a great team. I've developed a great ecosystem of partners that I trust we can shortcut and go have some fun together, and that's where I really kind of want to get to today. Really, you know, that's that's where I want to go with. The vision is to help brands and retailers accelerate and dispel those myths, show them the value proposition, but also show them that it is part of packaging and product, not this isolated thing that you think about last like point of sale. It has to be brought up right up from yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker 1:Right at the point of the design inception of the product itself, the packaging is literally the same thing, right?
Speaker 2:it's get everybody in a room right at the beginning. You know, get your print partners and I can tell you if they're any good or not, and I've got a long list of people I can bring in if they're not. But, honestly, bring people in. And cost is key today, isn't it? We hear about it, we're seeing the restructures and everything else and we know what that really means and it's tough. It's a tough environment. Consumers aren't spending as much, commodities are going through the roof, but bringing the right people together is cost optimization. You're not duplicating roles. You're not duplicating um creative resources. You know you're sharing assets. You're designing with purpose from the beginning and that way you're alleviating any mistakes that come out at the end, which could be quite costly. So it's common sense, but common sense should be a bloody thing on a cv and resume, to be honest with you because it's, in short, thrift. It really is, because people are in silos still and it's crazy. It's crazy why they still do that, because it's now interconnected.
Speaker 2:I like to see IoT and connected packaging as the glue that binds. It's the glue that binds everything across the supply chain. But I don't use supply chain, I use ecosystem, because supply chain people in marketing and brand will glaze over. Oh, it's not me, it's operations. You know. It's packaging. It's not my well, it's not my P&L. No, you have a responsibility. The people in the packaging are printing your packaging and the font size is an issue in the package and the print in your packaging and the font size is an issue, or you're just serving a load of codes and a load of nonsense and noise. You need to work together, it needs to be in harmony and you will save money and I'm talking serious numbers if you do this right. It takes a bit of a mind shift, but of a culture shift as well, and that's what we're seeing through restructures yeah, no, I get it, and that that goes.
Speaker 1:I have recent podcasts as well, talking around collaboration in terms of, you know, designing and manufacturing machinery for print. And the same thing having the collaborative approach at the beginning, with all the aspects, avoids problems later on, improves efficiency and optimizes performance. It sounds so obvious, but it's not. Not. It's more rare than it is common, but anyhow, um, that's part of your mission and purpose isn't it?
Speaker 2:um, I think it's the mission of many people and I think the people that will listen will absolutely nail it and they will go there and show them how much more efficient things can be and how much optimized and how much they can reinvest those savings as well, because it's there to be had. It really is, and you know we need it as an industry. I can wear both hats. You know this, marcus, and you know we're kind of second-guessing what people want. Get involved, you know. Stop sitting on your bum on the seat and actually, you know, on your desktop and trying to find out what's going on there. Get out there, help the industry shape something that's actually more meaningful and we all win together. It's as simple as that. You know it's it's.
Speaker 1:It's not rocket science. No, no, absolutely. But uh, well said and um, trends are obviously a fast moving industry. Trends are important from your kind of vantage point. Um, what would you consider the biggest shift currently happening in print and packaging and what might be driving them?
Speaker 2:I love trends, I absolutely love them, and there's so many different ways and models that you can skin a cat and ai is also transforming that as well as we speak and in my world, you know, plug in trends and plug in live data and consumer live data. It's. It's super interesting. But I think trends have been around forever, haven't they? Let's face it, macro, micro, industry specific, but I think, generally now printing packaging are susceptible to all of them. They have a place within all. They're a feeding mechanism or they're an output mechanism. So, whatever lens you put on things, you know trends. I've done a lot on trends. I did it in the previous company, I did it in the academia. I understand the way that they're created and they're transformational. Again, I mentioned at the beginning, history repeats itself. Trends don't really change. They evolve and I know that might be controversial. There are some kind of new technology things that come in, but you could still say that's a bucket under technology. But I always like to use luxury luxury trends, then move to premium, then premium luxury, then FMCG premium and now we're probably in the affordable premium trend. You know it's just an evolution because cost has been hitting it so hard even in the luxury market. I'm seeing that. You know, if they don't get the skates on, they're not going to be luxury for longer, they're going to be mainstream. So they have to adapt.
Speaker 2:But there's some massive hitters out there. The environmental bucket, let's call it, because there is so much of the environment, is that the right word? Should it be sustainability? There's all the new greenwashing legislation that's come out. That will probably define what we can and can't say. You know it's massive and to some people it's the gun to the head that's been needed. You know it's the regulation, it's the EPR, ppwr, drs, dpp. There's tons, but it all boils down to that one thing that's driving change. It's going to cost you something if you don't do it, or it's going to cost you more if you do it badly, and I think that's what has been really driving the changes. But it's a shitstorm, isn't it? I mean apologies on the swearing um, it's, it's, it's absolutely carnage. And I'm still very much involved in that environment and we'll come on to that later.
Speaker 2:But you know, from the material to what we're putting on the pack, you know and the uk is not leading now can I just put that out. There is definitely not leading, um, but again, so much opportunity in this area. But it you know there's so much, but again, so much opportunity in this area. But you know, there's so much finger pointing, there's so much deflection. The metrics can be tweaked, the data can be tweaked, the perspective can be tweaked. So you know what's the true values? Carbon? Maybe you know, but no one's going to be brave enough to have that slapped on a piece of packaging and transparent with all the data. So, yeah, there's a lot of work to be done, but if we do it right, the CSR teams will have a field day. They could really push it out there.
Speaker 2:But the problem is consumers don't really care. Citizens don't really care, but they expect it. So the environmental bucket's huge. That's never going to go away. We've got to make the world a safer place, otherwise there won't be one. It's as simple as that, and there's so much that we need to do with it. Regulation is the driving force, for sure, but the need for innovation and this is one of the things that always suffers.
Speaker 2:Innovation is another big bucket Technology innovation, material innovation I'm calling them big buckets because there's loads of macro trends within it, marcus, and we ain't got that much time, but it's about commercial innovation. I add that word because it's about bringing durability and longevity. The world is influxed with new materials, new prints, new inks, new technology. It's overwhelming. And unfortunately, the homes for most of these places are, you know, they're shrinking the innovation departments. They're shrinking because of cost. They don't have the time to test the materials, to understand them properly. So there's a real issue that we're facing now and they think AI can replace it because it can do modelling. Yeah, it can to a degree, but you've still got to get it working on a line and unfortunately, you know, talent is escaping and the new talent that's coming through is reliant on AI and you don't know what the true result is. They don't have that insight, that learning, they haven't got the fingers bent. So commercial innovation is a real big bucket and, again, lots to do around it.
Speaker 2:But going back into my kind of design world, you know, fit for purpose, packaging, this is a massive passion point for me. You know One size does not fit all and I think this is why large organizations are suffering because they realize that the SMEs, the smaller accessibility. You know these are all part of that fit for purpose and the fit for purpose can be the material, but it's the people, it's the usage, it's everything, and education is key in this area, but it's it's. It's again not utilized very often because it's cost optimized. All the easy tear strips every get an accessibility into packaging. They're taken off because of cost savings. We need to bring them back. We need to bring print and communication and education. We've got a whole digital world that can expand that thinking.
Speaker 2:Now. I'm in that position now where I wear three glasses. I should use varifocals. You know, and I'm literally at packaging levels, certain fonts I can't even read. It Can't even read it, and if one of them is an allergen, we're in trouble. You know we're in trouble and I guess that's, you know, a big bucket to explore. And then there's the materials and the chemistry. You know the makeup, as I like to call it, and that's another big bucket.
Speaker 2:And I think these are driving massive changes and they're not trends, they're things that are here to stay. I think that you know that's where you can put it. And then, finally, my world of digital. Let's call it digital transformation or technology, or you know this is accelerated at such a pace. You only need to work on the next ai front end or back end software solution and it's already out of date within two months. You know it's it's it's so rapid the in developments. You know what we're seeing in the print industry modularity over big systems. I mean, this is where I truly get excited, because it's the world I'm still in and it's still going to be me for the next 20 years, I hope, and it's fantastic.
Speaker 2:But there's a problem in this area and you and I know it and our network do is mindset and cultural shifts that need to happen. Unfortunately, I call it the dead wood needs to be cut because they just don't adapt and unfortunately I hinted at it before the new wood, the new talent that's coming through. They're missing big chunks in the education, in the hands-on experience, and that over-reliance on technology will be an Achilles heel that will really bite hard, you know, and hopefully it doesn't kill the people or it doesn't do anything, but it could do. You know, if you overlook something and you rely on automation too much and you rely on, you know, ai and cameras to do all the job, and then suddenly we might have a real issue. You know and I'm talking, you know all the propaganda stuff that people read about and it can get a bit scary, shall we say. But um you know, sci-fi lovers behold yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So so it's a lot, a lot there, I mean in terms of um trends. That's really useful to hear and I think, like you say, the, the ai and the technology subject is very much something we're still learning about and understanding, but the need humans are the creative source, right and, and from what you're saying, the new, hopefully the new people entering the marketplace and into these roles are also creative as well as very being very versatile with technology, because that is still key, isn't it?
Speaker 2:yeah, they have to embrace it. For those businesses that don't embrace technology, your competitors are simple as that. You know, for you as an individual, if I'm looking for talent in the future and I'm looking for the next pack tech, if you're not embracing technology and AI and the other person is, I'm going to go with the other person. One they're showing curiosity. One they're trying to learn they understand that things are shifting. You know pack technology role massively going to evolve. Think about it. I mean half of their fundamental, mundane part of legislation, sops or the documents of compliance, automated Material drop downs, effects drop downs this could be automated, but you still need knowledge, it still needs to be taught, but it has to be taught in a different way. And that brings me onto a whole new area, which I'm not even going to go to the educational establishments. My Jesus, they're 10 years out of date. They need to embrace this stuff. I can say that with authority. There's only a handful around the world that can actually claim that they're actually teaching the students something actually bloody useful in the world of what we're in now. And there's some good ones. But, yeah, there's a whole learning that needs to be brought in, for sure. But, yeah, you've got to adopt it and that's why I'm saying there's certain Deadwood, certain cultural mentalities. You have to bring in digital transformation to adopt it. And that's why I'm saying there's certain Deadwood, certain cultural mentalities. You have to bring in digital transformation and I think you'll see more and more roles with these titles. I think ecosystem will become a more popular name because it's more than the supply chain, as I've hinted at.
Speaker 2:I think connected packages, smart packaging, whatever you want to call it. You know technology and packaging needs to be adopted and you need those, those creative, agile thinkers, because you need to be able to think of what does the marketeer want, the commercial team want the procurement, the supply chain guy want, the packaging guy want the quality and safety. You're all ready and then, oh, I need data and it and the computer always says no, so it's, it's, it's hard and they're, and they're fighting internally across every business I'm seeing this. They're fighting internally who should lead the project. So if you have it leading the project, you're not going to get a consumer facing and end output because they look at the technology in a silo, which is why so many sas solutions fail, because they're driven by the technology and not by the problem and the need and the end user, and it has to be user friendly.
Speaker 2:So you know, and that's why it's overwhelming, for what is an influx of companies like ourselves and you know ID management generators, which, if you want to give away security and everything, go for it. But yeah, it's scary. But big organizations need a conduit. Like I said at the iot, you can connect. The packaging is the glue. You need somebody in these organizations or a team that is the glue within. And then they need to connect externally with the collaborators and the partners, because if they just look internally, you're going to get an internal solution that probably won't work no, and that and that's collaboration, as you said.
Speaker 1:But anyway, on the theme of connected packaging, what is it Define, connected packaging, and can you share some examples of where it's delivered? That kind of impact and value for brands and consumers?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you know connected packaging has had been around a while. It was actually probably under the pillar of smart packaging, but it's it's different. Smart packaging are devices, electronic devices that do other things that are quite clever, you know, like indicators that slowly warm up on food perishable goods, and you know r RFID is probably more smart than connected, but it is connected as well. But connected packaging I want to take a step back. It's about connected experiences that can affect packaging, products or environments and your main technology enablers and we're agnostic. But QR code is the low-hanging fruit. Everyone knows it Since COVID. Thank you very much. Everyone realises it, even my mum realises it. It's going to point to something and do something or steal their data. Some people might think there's so many uses of it, but unfortunately a lot of the experiences break down because it points to a corporate website at best or an error 404. So it's doing some damage. There's a lot of people doing damage in this industry. But connected experiences whether it be on a product it could be a drill whether it be on a piece of packaging or whether a display sign system is a enabler to a digital experience. That can be any manner of things, from gifting, personalization, the ability to record a message of love on a postcard, a digital postcard that you buy as a part of a perfumery or alcohol bottle. There's so many examples out there, but there's real added value examples out there. You can look at it from a marketing point of view, where you're you know we've we've done some great releases with um, with madri, where we're really bringing in that social element and helps you even find a pub that sells madri or where it can stock madri. And there's gamification design your own glass to even play in tunes. So there's a high engagement that has been traditionally the holy ground of connected experiences through to again reason why I joined the business is challenging the norm.
Speaker 2:So digital product passports are the gun to the head and connect the packaging that we need. For those who don't know what that means, it's the back of panel of all your packaging that has all the ingredients, allergens, etc. Etc. This has to have a digital signature, which today is a 2D code, qr code, whatever you want to call it that then has to replicate that information in the digital sphere. That's the basic, fundamental. But these codes eventually, when they're adopted and replaced, the barcode can hold so much more information. So why not put the material information in there, the package of material information there, the ink that goes on there, why not if it's a complicated product and we're talking maybe pharmaceuticals? Where it has led the way to a degree is your dosage, your instructions or devices, or DIY tools.
Speaker 2:So we were challenged by a fashion brand you know Moose Knuckles, probably a household name it wasn't for me, I must admit but super expensive. Great fashion brand said we have to have a label and we have to have a DPP, but it's boring, we want to do something different. So we created an environment that still ticked the box, the gun to the head, the, the, the need, but then showed well, you can take the need, but with that same code you can do so much more. And it was a lovely little story. I'm happy to share it. But again, it's okay, it's the fashion world. You know, that's one example and maybe people think I'm so disconnected. It's not a chocolate bar, it's not, you know, it's not a can of pop.
Speaker 2:But what about medical devices? So great, great client of ours, boots. Truly, again about cultural mindset. They get it. We've grown with them. They really see the value of it.
Speaker 2:We started with with medical devices and you've seen it. You must have seen it. So you get these medical devices it was a blood pressure device, yeah. You get the box. It's pretty nice, nice graphics and everything else, and then you open the box and then you get this micro-thin piece of paper booklet with all the instructions in 10 different languages and a font size of about seven points. Bearing in mind, people that are probably wanting these medical devices are probably in a later stage of three glasses than me and probably don't understand that and get frustrated.
Speaker 2:So a digital experience of a guide and bringing that to life may sound very, very simple. Again, it's a simple execution, but it embraces what we have in our hands all the time, which is the phone. Your phone is always there and that links with it and there's videos and it shows you the benefits. This is now you know. This should be the norm. You know why are we having this, and going back to digital doesn't need to cost. Think about the cost saving here, saving trees. You don't actually need, perhaps, that booklet. You might need some of the legal information, as there was a need for some core information to be in a paper, written format, but it wouldn't be good if you could avoid all the language clustering and the, the makeup there, and I think that there's opportunities for that to be exploited in every direction. It it really is. But you know, they're just two examples marcus, you know, and, and there's so many more out there, but these are practical ones.
Speaker 1:These are ones that I consider as scalable, game-changing ones that anyone can adopt with the right partner matrix yeah, interesting, and obviously we're a print platform and digital print is, I believe, something you've been very much immersed and involved in too. So how does you know what is the role of digital print in this and in terms of enabling connected and customizable packaging experiences, is it playing a big role?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, dare I say it, marcus, digital is here to stay. Is it going to be finally, that growth aspiration that we've been? I've been saying for probably 10 plus years, saying that digital will eventually take over analog and et? You know all those kind of stories, but I honestly duly feel that digital has an advantage with the connected experiences that you can deliver now, much more so than any kind of um analog kind of approach. But but analog, always fight back.
Speaker 2:You know, you've got digital print and you've got digital coding. Both of these have to adapt and both of them are in the driving seat when it comes to adopting the digital experience that connected packaging and products can give you. It is they're going to be first and that's why we've seen an absolute acceleration in digital print. O you know there's a lot more now than there was when I first ran. You know KitKat personalization or TimKat vegan and all these kind of digitalness with pride that we were doing, and this was all about mastering digital print for fully unique packs. You know personalized packaging, because you are a person that is individual, so why not leverage these technologies? And I've slowly been building that up into huge scalable launches in my past company. But now you've got hybrids, digital hybrids, you've got the HPs, the Landors all of these should be really bridging this in. You know we need to show the value proposition and if you're going to digitally print a code, there should be part of that pyramid of value dependent on the cost of the product. You know where you might want to just make it more personal, you might want to invest in digital and a mixture of an analogue and that's there. Now you have all the tools and technology.
Speaker 2:I just don't think that awareness is really driven in the businesses yet, because there's no excuses anymore. The tech's there Use it, find out how to use it in your system. Because, if you think about humble chocolate bars, you have limited editions, you have seasonal executions, you have giftable executions, you have influencer executions, you have VIP one-offs there's so much, and that's where your core, your mainstream, will always stick with the cheapest possible way of doing things. But then you have all these layers where you can win the consumer hearts and minds again. But then you have all these layers where you can win the consumer hearts and minds again, and that's part of what I don't get sometimes is that you have an opportunity. I call it, the Star Wars.
Speaker 2:It's a great book where you know brands and retailers fight all the time, you know who owns what, and again it's the history buffing me. But a great book. But this is a time where the retailers own everything. But this is a time where the retailers own everything loyalty cards, consumer information and sell it back. And costs of shelf and everything else, cost of premium Brands.
Speaker 2:Now have a direct line of communication to citizens, and I say citizens over consumers, because consumers, yes, they will consume your product and you want that deeper insight, but you also because of brands. Now, citizens may not necessarily have to buy your product, but still understand your brand and still need to respect it. So they might be passing a poster or they might see an advert on a phone. You need to connect and you can learn from these and it can all be done through the one interaction. And that one interaction doesn't need to be static.
Speaker 2:It's not susceptible to the print paradigm with, once it's printed, oh christ, we have to reprint. No, it can redirect and digital print some of its superpowers, as we know, is print on demand. You know, you can start to cluster your printing. You can start to print your printing, not with hundreds of languages on the back, but you could actually have a sophisticated supply chain in the background that actually manages it all. These are some of the dreams that we know that work. You and I know that the cost model pays dividends. It's just again, the mindset, the structures, the timing, the impact on factory, and the factory don't want to change. They never want to change, they just want to churn out volume. But that's got to change as well. So digital print I feel more comfortable saying it now that we're now going to see this grow. But it's going to grow in different ways and I think what we'll see is they will embrace connected packaging and experiences, because it's a true added value, usp and then that will feel a notch even more, I think, as we see it grow and I think it's exciting because you get a much better output, because if you tie it with the right design agency, you tie it with the right print and pack agency who will understand design for digital, you can create very, very unique and individual experiences and people, frankly, keep them the right product, the right pack.
Speaker 2:They will keep even the empty bottle, if need be, or the empty pack, or in some cases, where it's a chocolate bar.
Speaker 2:I still have mine. I've never unwrapped it, but I'm biased because I was behind the project, but I'm sure there were other people that would keep it. Um, and then that's where technology has to play an even more important role, because, if we're having all this variation, ai is my saving grace because, um, it now has a way of identifying past projects where I would have loved to scale them but couldn't because the way of vetting let's just call it the creative public's willingness to share maybe a little bit too much on social media and on packs. We now have an AI engine that can potentially spot these noughties and symbols and things where we couldn't do in the past. So, again, combining AI into the mix. Again, I don't want to go too much into ai, because this is a whole new topic, uh, marcus, and I just absolutely love it, but it's a tool that's enhancing and bringing scale that's the important word scale and volume to some of those past ideas that were constrained. Those constraints are now off. Yeah, it's exciting isn't it absolutely?
Speaker 1:it's exciting it's so exciting you mentioned citizens and public, and consumer behavior obviously is a key. Um, I guess, how is shaping, how technology needs to adapt and so on? Um, in what ways are these kind of changing consumer expectations, perhaps around some of the things you've already mentioned, like interactivity, I think, traceability and security and also sort of sustainably shaping packaging strategies?
Speaker 2:Yeah, look, yeah, we've hinted at it, haven't we? Sustainability yes, I think there's an expectation that brands and cost and saving. It's more about instant value. You know this is what they want. If they're going to buy something or engage with something, the value proposition has to be multilayered. So the advice I give is you have multilayered experiences, have multilayered kind of offerings. So, yes, have your sustainability message on there where you're sourcing the ingredients, the food and transportation and how you're saving the world.
Speaker 2:And you know, I don't want to get into that because most people's 2025 to 2030 visions is not going to be realized, but I'm sure the csr teams will do a great job in hiding that and rebalancing it. But if you look at all those options we've been discussing about digital product passports, ingredients, allergens, allergens there was on the news, I think two days ago. They're going to add another 12 allergens to packaging that have come through, pine nuts being one. It was a real random one, some sort of was it cucumber? I couldn't remember, but you know, just really random ones. Again, that means a reprint. You know, a digital signature could update your pack straight away if it happened to have that in. So, again, there's benefits to stop the recall. But, yeah, I think there is the sustainability drivers, there's languages. You might pick up a bar in one country and you might want to read it in another, and that digital signature can really help again, isn't it? So there's the need.
Speaker 2:And you said traceability and security as well. We know this is a problem Security, authenticity, grey market, black market, copycat, you know, especially in more dangerous segments, like spirits, where you're not getting the spirit you want, and god help if it's anything like pure maths, you're in trouble. Um, but ultimately, that authenticity security is something I'm seeing a lot more of, and that and that's a concern with consumers, because I still get it now are you scanning that code? Are you going to get all my data? Where's it all going to go? And, and that's the bit that fears me, I was on a call and a meeting last week. Massive global brand said yeah, what's all the fuss about qr codes? And you know, we just got an id management, just one of these codes off the website and I thought, oh my god, you've just given away your data, you're not learning anything from it, you can never evolve from it, you know, and it that's. That's the mindset change we need really. Um.
Speaker 2:But then there's education, I think, with consumers. I think that's really important. This is where the sustainability added value moves from corporations talking about how great they are and what they're doing in the supply chain. But actually how do we educate people on removing this packaging responsibly, or you know which bin does it go in? Or can we start to educate via the pack medium as opposed to anything else? And I think this is where some of the superpowers start to kick in, because those natasha story and things like that, they shouldn't happen.
Speaker 2:If the infrastructure is there, if the print and the digital signage work together and it's linked to your phone and you're a customer of that coffee shop and you put in your profile I cannot have peanuts and you have a coffee and you scan it as part of your loyalty mechanism as you come in, please don't order these products. You know you can see the future and we're not there yet because people don't understand it and don't understand consumers well enough or citizens well enough. And I think that's a whole kind of new insight part where connected experiences and r&d and innovation come together, because that qr code or nfc doesn't have to point to all of what we just discussed about, but it could actually point to well, did you like that product? What would you do if you improve it? It could actually be a feeder for mpd. It could actually be actually evolving at such a pace that it's a continuous cycle and if I was some of the big market research powerhouses, I would be really worried yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And I mean on on that theme of sustainability and from what I'm hearing really, I mean the. The opportunity with the technology is that the packaging becomes a storytelling platform, doesn't it? So how are brands perhaps using connected packaging to communicate their sustainability of efforts, perhaps in in kind of more engaging, exciting or or even transparent ways?
Speaker 2:yeah, look. Yeah, you're damned if you don't. You're damned if you don't, isn't it? It's one of those. It's it's.
Speaker 2:If you're not putting anything on the sustainability, then you're going to get pulled up. If you are pulling it on, frankly, your leadership rates are going to be pretty low because there's no added value proposition. If it's just that and it's pointing to a corporate website, which is often, I'd say, 90% of what people are doing, then they tick a box yes, we've got a QR code. Yes, we've got our sustainability manifesto, whatever it is on there. And then boom, they get disappointed when the readership rates and then they try to hide it in a report in some other, different way. But there are ways of doing it. Make a game out of it. Where's the added value If you're going to do this and read about it?
Speaker 2:Have a two kind of conversation, talking heads. And if they're going to do that, what's the value in return? So it's about those stackable kind of experiences I mentioned at the beginning. One size does not fit all. Talk about storytelling, talk about sustainability.
Speaker 2:Everyone likes a story. You know it depends on the product and packaging. You know the category. So I love that red grape juice. I'm a big fan on that and I'm a big fan of the black Irish nectar, which I'm going to be consuming next week, which will be really good, and they've got great stories and I want to read about them and I want to hear about them, and even their adverts are pretty cool, but they have a lot of engagement and a lot of winning competition mechanisms. But, as a you know, I like to know about the terroirs and the and what kind of grapes. So it has to be fit for purpose and that's one of those big bucket trends, you know it. It has to be appropriate. Don't just carpet blank these things because it will fail. You know, work with the experts to develop the experiences, and those experts are the collaborative mix of people we mentioned, not just your internal circle, but your design agency, your advertising agency, your supplier network. It'd be quite interesting where you get to.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, the more I think about it, the more power and potential it has. But, like you say, that requires thought, planning and execution in order to kind of stand out really, and I guess standing out is the key, is one of the key things. Um, the cleverest, one of the clever aspects I'm not completely clear on is is is obviously one of you mentioned earlier. One of iott's strengths, and generally in terms of digital, is um, understand, well, understanding how to harness, perhaps, the real-time data for packaging, which you can see what's going on in the moment, can't you? How is that intelligence being used, perhaps to drive performance, either marketing performance or environmental impact?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, that's one of those USPs, definitely. And look, you know it's live data. We have static codes and we have unique codes. You know serialized codes and you know the more you move to that gateway, the more individualized learnings you can actually get. I mean, data is key. You know we plug into loyalty schemes, we plug into other data solution providers, so you're enriching the data even more. But from an IoT point of view, it's consumer. It's how they're engaging with that product and packaging.
Speaker 2:Depending on the mechanisms, it could be a fun experience. Did it work? But you can literally tailor it to the region. You know you could run a campaign that is in the whole of Spain and the whole of Spain is culturally very different. The whole of the UK is very, very different. So you can tailor your experiences on the fly with different messaging and update that digital signature straight away. So if you know that your readership rates are not very high, or the engagement rates drop off or the awareness, you're learning from that, the mechanism is teaching you. Our insights are telling you this is failing or you need to improve it on your next communication, and we're also using AI tools to correlate this against other insights and actually recommending improvements on the fly.
Speaker 2:That's powerful, that's not. You don't have to reset. You know you can do it if you build it in upfront, the planning stage that you might need to adapt, or you have six or seven scenarios that you want to try over the next 12 weeks. You can do that now and that could be a very good mechanism if you want to live and learn in terms of sustainability messaging storytelling. What kind of sustainability storytelling actually is more successful than just pointing to a redirect? You know it's obvious, but you can learn a lot and that's why it's been a powerful platform and why I enjoyed it so much when I came on board is it is marketing, brand led. We're trying to solve the problems of those as first, not the technology We'll find. Find the technology, the bolt-ons, the plugins, the partnerships to fill in any gaps, but fundamentally we're driving success and that's why our numbers far outweigh anything that's you know, kind of standard out there. You know we're in double digits and that's very rare and um.
Speaker 1:It's that ability to fine-tune and adapt, isn't it in real time? That has never been possible before. So you have examples. Maybe we're in an early stage. I don't know where you can change the messaging. So can it literally be? So you have a package design in a shop for a range. You realize perhaps in one location it could be a bit better, for whatever reason, or perhaps adapt it slightly, and then you'll be able to then re-deliver stuff, is it that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, all of the above. And I think, if we look into a really kind of pioneering category is the health and beauty ranges definitely, and I think, to give you an example of how much you can actually stream live, a kind of pioneering category is the health and beauty ranges definitely, and I think um, you know, to give you an example of how much you can actually like stream live data is, you know again, boots. It's all out there on the public domain and our clinic work with the sd lord company we're not only developing multi-layered experiences, but we're also saying well, look, you've just bought this cream, face cream. You connected with it's, telling you about the other products and possibilities. That's part of your healthcare regime. So it's cross-selling, it's upselling, it's got your data. It's actually geolocating on what part of the world you're in and actually suggesting you know you live in a very humid or dry, arid of country a, b or c, we recommend that you don't use these products and we focus on these for your skin type.
Speaker 2:And then you have all the kind of you know, interactivity in terms of the augmented reality, where you can start to face map and you can dye your beard different colors, you know, if you want to, just for men experiences, as I like to think about that, I'll probably avoid, if I can, um, as I get gray hairs. But you know, if you want to, just for men experiences, as I like to think about that, I'll probably avoid if I can, um, as I get gray hairs. But you know, there's so much opportunity there's. There's no limitation, but the fact that you can zone in and you're bringing in that customer loyalty data from the retailer, it's just enriching and you're building such insights into that individual which can then be clustered into segmentations and then, before you know it, you've got a new MPD line that's kicking in as well. So, again, it's the glue. I go back, it's the glue.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's exciting, isn't it? And obviously I'm wondering how that will develop, and I'm sure we'll start to see some really impactful examples that you've already mentioned as well, and perhaps just on the shop floor, start noticing ourselves more and more obviously. Sustainability is a mega trend, and you've been a key part of the leadership group for a manifesto for sustainable print, or more sustainable print. Why do you think it's important? Obviously, it's a collaborative group, so that's something that you're passionate about as well collaboration, and how can perhaps initiatives like this help drive change across the industry? Do you believe?
Speaker 2:Yeah, look, I think this is a great initiative and it's a great manifesto and, you know, a call out for those brands and retailers now is you know, we want to bring some of you in. We want you as founding voices and we mentioned that we need those voices. You know we need to be fine tuning but sustainable print. There's so much noise on material, there's so much noise on the heavy weight stuff. I really worry about the chemicals and things we're putting on our packs and this was a worry that goes back a fair few rules. You know, not just now, but I'm going back into academia. That's where I really got worried about what we're putting on pack and we know there are brutal categories like textiles that are entering our waterways and and we talk about microplastics. But, seriously, we, we need education and I already hinted that we're losing talent and the replacing talent doesn't have that information. So this is a no brainer for people. Engage with it. This is an unbiased platform.
Speaker 2:Yes, there are companies that are competing against each other, that have come together to share knowledge, to give you that knowledge, to learn from each other, to inform you and dispel those myths, which are really important, because it's so easy for a corporation and I can say this with authority and not just the last one I worked in is if they don't have enough information or they don't know, they just raise the bar unnecessarily and they're missing out on. One of the key things is for packaging and design. We still need to make money and sell things. They still need to look attractive. We still need to leverage all the great technology and print and production that's coming out there. We don't want to just dismiss it and there's lots of legislation in the background that I'm hearing noises from Germany and the Swiss ordinance. All these kinds of things are changing all the time. There is no way any brand or retailer now has the capacity, because of the talent loss that's happening, to keep on board with this.
Speaker 2:So this group is an absolute no-brainer and we hope to see a lot of success because it is a gap, because the legislation that we're seeing coming from the sustainability part of it it's really small letters, it's a little tiny piece, and I was at the environmental summit not so long ago and I had I brought my boy band together who were really great experts.
Speaker 2:You know we had over 100 years experience in um in print and we kind of put it out there and I think it was a bit of a bomb, because everyone's so rabbit hole focused on materials, but materials have something on them, so we need to address both in the same, and I think that's the purpose of this manifesto and we hope to grow it into more things and we hope to educate, because there is a gap and that gap is just going to grow and we want to fill it and that's why we're doing it, and I'm excited because I have a lot in the background. I have a lot of technical experience in this way as well, but now I see myself as more the educator, because there's only way you're going to really understand this is by connecting, and that's probably going to be through a digital device of some sort and learning through that mechanism. So that's why we're part of that founding group, because we're part of that glue, part of that founders group, yeah, and it's exciting and they're good people. So it was nice to work with good people and people that understand the problem and I think, yeah, we're actively looking now for more, but you have to collaborate.
Speaker 2:No silos, please. You know it's important silos?
Speaker 1:I mean, as you mentioned earlier, in terms of adopting new ideas and trying new things out. Is that, yes, that is a key barrier, isn't it? In terms of, you know, and and it's partly, I suppose, because we're still in the old industrial model that is more hierarchical and more siloed thinking, but it's, it's a human thing, isn't it? And it's it is a problem with adopting new ideas, isn't it? People become resistant, like you said earlier as well, factories are designed not for disruption, so you come with something that is interesting and their response won't be positive. So you need to get to the people with the vision for the future and and being prepared to try things out through collaboration and take measured risks. What on that, really? I mean on adoption challenges, it's a thing. What do you see as the main hurdles for?
Speaker 2:yeah, look it is yeah, yeah, yeah, look, we've alluded to it throughout. Really, there's talent issues, there's mindset issues, there's cultural issues. We really do need digital transformation people, ram and EPD. It's a mess and it's slightly embarrassing, if I'm honest, and that's why we're trying to get a pro and we're trying to do something about it.
Speaker 2:But if we look at adoption challenges, it's about relationships. Really, it starts there. You need trust, you need to find the right collaborators, you need to test, to learn no-transcript. Now you know where your investments are going to go, and the more upfront planning you can do, the better. But it is about finding those right people and and being ready to be transparent. You know you have nowhere to hide now.
Speaker 2:So if your data's in a bad array, if you're trying to use all the naughty green washing things that are coming out, if you're not trying to be inclusive and accessible, all these things are going to come as a barrier that you're just going to have to spend more money trying to fix because you're not tackling it as a pre-planned activity. I've said time and time again this does not need to cost more money if you plan it into those cycles and those cycles are massive why go through all the print changes when you can plan it ahead, and I haven't seen many businesses that are doing that. They just want to react and reprint. I've seen hundreds of cylinders have been to be redone in gravure presses because of simple word changes or typos. You know, this is where digital print wings in. Again. It's about building ecosystems within your own internal structure to actually go through layers of stage gates that are actually using technology, rather than old ways and sweating all your assets out. Sometimes you're going to have to bite the bullet and start to transition over, and that's where the manifesto helps, that's where the information helps, that's where the collaboration helps.
Speaker 2:And we haven't even talked about you know the codes on packs and where they can go. You know they can be picked up in supply chain if your production lines are there, so you can track and trace from the very beginning and they can be adapted as they go along. So supply chain is a cost saving. So in the factory they should be embracing it a little bit more, but they're not even thinking about that way, or not many people are. Some are to be fair. So but start simple, bring the departments together, stop into fighting. That just makes me laugh. You know marketing want to win, one brand wants to win over another. You know that's not cost saving, that's just noise. But I appreciate you know a lot of marketing roles, what they're in role for 12 to 18 months and then they go and make a noise somewhere else. At least packaging, people stay put a bit longer, and innovation generally. So there's hope, which is why we need those departments, because they're like the custodians of truth, because they stay put a bit longer really. So yeah, quite interesting.
Speaker 1:And it is a mindset thing. Collaboration is that, isn't it. It's not about competing in the same. You know what I mean. You get competition, like you just said, within development and it's about winning and it's like collaboration actually is about us winning.
Speaker 2:Isn't it so critical in it? It is, yeah. How many times are we here? Collaboration over the last 10 years, the need for collaboration I, I'm, I'm losing faith in it. It's like chicken and the egg. You, you need to collaborate and unfortunately, you know, especially in the last few years, brands aren't, retailers aren't getting out, so how are they going to collaborate and build relationships from a desk? You know, and the whole mentality is wrong. The love is lost within companies at the moment. It's a shame because it's you need short-term pain for long-term gain, I think, for collaboration.
Speaker 2:And it takes a bit of while to find the chemistry and sometimes it's not always right, is it? Sometimes you do have to call the time on it. But collaboration we need to see action on collaboration, not just talk about it, and I know a lot of my peers and brands and retailers feel the same, but then they're the very few that do get out. There's too many that don't.
Speaker 1:No, exactly. So now, looking ahead to the future, stefan. So we've had a wide-ranging discussion there. Looking ahead at the future, you're a future-focused individual and obviously that's key. Being at the future. You're a future focused individual and, uh, obviously that's key being at the cutting edge of technology. Um, you know what excites you most about the future for print and packaging, and what innovations do you see just over the horizon that perhaps we don't?
Speaker 2:know. Yeah, look, um, I said at the end stop talking about collaboration, let's just do it, and we really need to find those complementary relationships across the different internal and external collaborators. You know we have to bring the outside thinking into businesses, but you have to be fair. Stop all this. You know, especially now I'm playing on so many different worlds there's free pitching and ideas and that come on. This is bad practice and every brand and retailer is guilty of it. Yes, we want to work with you, but be fair, you know.
Speaker 2:I think you know we're all human beings and I think that's something that people forget sometimes. I think you know, treat people like humans. You know, and and and I've always I think I've been fair in my previous roles and and been very transparent, and that transparency needs to come very, very clear, otherwise, you know, you get a bad reputation and that's something I'm seeing happen far too much. So I think there's principles and professionalism needs to be readdressed. I think that's something that I'm really passionate about. Ai I think this needs to be a new topic, marcus, because, honestly, I've got so many toys I'm playing with.
Speaker 1:On AI because, like you say, it'd be fascinating to hear much more about that and understand your view of it and how you're deploying it and seeing it deploy. But I think we'll do a follow-up podcast about that.
Speaker 2:But yeah, big it's a, it's a big one and and and you'll hear all the tools today it's a tool, it's the enhancers, it's the back end, it's the front end, it's all of those. Like my experience with 20 years ago, it's going to transform jobs, it's going to take jobs I'm going to be as bold to say that and it's going to be hundreds. You know it is going to transform jobs. It's going to take jobs I'm going to be as bold to say that and it's going to be hundreds. You know it is going to be a little bit scary, but the best will prevail and other roles will pop up. You know everyone can be a coder, everyone can be an ID person. You know there's so many opportunities now, but every industry is touched medical logistics, all of it. You know, know, and it actually realizes a lot of the ideas I had many years ago that I can actually implement at scale now. So actually it's doing me a load of favors, but there is going to be investments needed and kit to, you know, address this and I think, um, I think those businesses that fail to adapt and the regardless of scale, I really do not embrace.
Speaker 2:You know, some of what we've discussed today. Do not plug in the holes with talent and education and all the information that we're pulling together through the manifesto, but also stop seeing things in silos. Packaging is part of the product, the product is part of the packaging, the digital elements that go around it and the storytelling is part of that experience. And for those with bricks and mortar, there's a whole retail part as well. So you need to start thinking things in isolation and bring them together because it will save money. You know that's the money where the money shot, but ultimately it will save money. You know that's the money word the money shot but ultimately it will give you better experiences and everything will come together and everyone will be happy, hopefully as well and alive and kicking. I really think the accessibility and saving lives things. If that doesn't hit home hard, at least the cost thing does, because that hurts the wallets of all the shareholders for the bigger companies.
Speaker 1:And that matters, and that matters, and that matters, and that's a fantastic way to conclude our discussion, which has been superb. Thanks so much for you know giving us your time and all of the thoughts and experiences and opinions and insights that you're giving us.
Speaker 2:So thank you very much for joining us, stefan thank you, marcus pleasure, and look forward to the next one. Take care.
