FuturePrint Podcast
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FuturePrint Podcast
#269 Inside Nazdar’s OEM Inks – Chemistry, Collaboration, and the Future of Inkjet
In this episode of the FuturePrint Podcast, we welcome back Martin Burns, who represents the OEM inks division at Nazdar. While Nazdar is widely recognised as one of the world’s leading ink manufacturers, its OEM business plays a more behind-the-scenes but strategically vital role in shaping the future of industrial inkjet.
Martin explains how the OEM group works closely with printer and printhead manufacturers, system integrators, and other partners across the inkjet ecosystem. Unlike the mainstream distribution side of the business, which follows a traditional product development cycle, the OEM division is about co-creation: embedding chemistry expertise into the earliest stages of hardware design. In many cases, Nazdar effectively becomes the “chemistry department” for its partners, providing direct access to R&D specialists and offering solutions that de-risk new product launches.
The conversation highlights how agility and innovation underpin this approach. From ultra-high viscosity inks that unlock new industrial applications, to sustainability-driven solutions such as faster-drying water-based inks, Martin demonstrates how chemistry is enabling inkjet to enter new markets—from packaging and textiles to additive manufacturing and functional deposition.
Looking ahead, Martin sees major opportunities in water-based packaging, functional coatings, and industrial manufacturing, where inkjet is increasingly valued not for decoration but for its ability to deposit precise fluids that make devices work.
“We’re not just selling ink. In many cases, we’re acting as the chemistry department for our partners.” – Martin Burns, Nazdar OEM Inks
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FuturePrint TECH: Industrial Print: 21-22 January '26, Munich, Germany
welcome to the latest episode of the future print podcast, delighted to have with me back once more martin burns, who, um represents nasdaq oem inks. Welcome back to the podcast, martin. I know we're going to be talking about what that means oem inks and so on but in in the first instance, welcome back. Thank you very much, marcus, great to be here again. Again, yes, no, good to have you back. And um, we covered the ultra high viscosity um developments that you've been dealing with um in the first podcast. So if anybody is really interested in that, then please do scroll back to um, that previous episode.
Speaker 1:But today's chat we're gonna I want to delve a bit more into with martin the development of nasdaq oem inks and what that means, because nasdaq are really well established and well known across the world as an as an ink manufacturer and one of the top ones. And um, the oem inks element of nasdaq is something that I think not everybody is aware of and what it means and how it operates and the differences perhaps to the core businesses and what that really means. But before we delve into that, I'm just going to ask Martin to give us a little bit of an intro about himself, of an intro about himself. Um, you might, if you don't mind, explaining a bit about your role at nasdaq and perhaps how that then connects to the oem inks side of the business yeah, absolutely so.
Speaker 2:I work as part of a team that were known, uh, internally, as the oem group within nasdaq.
Speaker 2:So obviously, for those that are familiar with that term those that aren't that's originally equipment manufacturers. This basically means that, as part of the nasdaq team, I work with system integrators, equipment manufacturers, printer manufacturers, printhead manufacturers everybody involved with what's you know being now become known as the ecosystem around around inkjet. You know where people come together. They may manufacture ink delivery systems, you may have a print head manufacturer, you may have a system integrator and an ink manufacturer, and so we we get very used to working in in these groups. Um, so my role is really to interact with those different fractions in the OEM ecosystem. But also internally, there's a very important role to play in pulling together the business functions within NASDAQ and making sure that the relevant people, the relevant teams, are part of any development projects that we do, making sure that our partners are fully engaged with the right people at NASDAQ and looking really to kind of advise, from an ink development standpoint, the people that we're working with, our partnerships.
Speaker 1:Yeah, makes a lot of sense. Makes a lot of sense and, as I kind of hinted at at the beginning, nasdaq is really well known for its technologies business in multiple markets. Could you explain a bit more about how the OEM division differs, perhaps in terms of focus strategy and how you work with customers?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. And how you work with customers? Yeah, absolutely. So many areas of the nasdaq business um look at operating in kind of a regular way. So, you know, we take part in things like market analysis. We seek out market opportunities, look at trends, look at areas where we might be able to develop a product that's got a market opportunity or a specific customer need. We then go through the typical product development, product life cycle and launch these products. Um, you know, and this really feeds into the distribution side of our business looking at what products are going to be of maximum benefit to them and going down the path of being able to provide them and market them in the best and most efficient ways.
Speaker 2:Oem is different to that. You know NASDAQ has got a long tradition of OEM business. You know, both within Digital Linkjet, but also analog. Our history is very rich in partnering with equipment manufacturers to bring solutions to market. The. Where this really started to develop and to progress was in 2006. It was an acquisition by nazdar of a company called license. So the bit of a bit of history here, but it gives a good background. And license was a dedicated inkjet. Ink development company had several um oem relationships, also soldings through different mechanisms as well. And what this gave was two things to nasdaq nasdaq was hugely successful in north america, hugely successful in screen, but this broadened geographically the reach and it also broadened technically their capabilities. So there was a sudden injection there of specific digital inkjet know-how experience products. Most of those products are are now pretty much out of date, being 19 years ago, but that was the foundation of how NASDAQ could fully enter the world of digital inkjet and, as I say, oem has been part of that business for a very, very long time.
Speaker 2:The difference is now one focus. We're looking at inkjet. There's very dynamic forces involved with it, so we've got to have a dedicated and focused group looking at that. But one of the things that we wanted to do was make sure that our approach was appropriate. Now, when I use the word appropriate, I mean appropriate for nasdaq and something new and innovative in the way that we go about doing that.
Speaker 2:So for a lot of inkjet ink manufacturers, quite understandably, there is a focus on manufacturing inkjet inks and doing that well, doing that consistently, that's great. That needs to be done. Working on logistics it's a nice add-on. Packaging these types of things are nice quality add-ons to your business. But how do we go about adding value to the whole process? The whole process and that we see is being on the front end, you know, using the resources that we've got to the benefit of our oem partners or our partners in general?
Speaker 2:And this is making sure that when we engage in a project, when we, when we form a partnership, that we give those partners access to the full range of services and the full range of resources we have available. You know, so this could look like um direct access to some of our r d specialists. You know what? What we?
Speaker 2:What we have noticed is that with a lot of OEMs so, for example, if you have an OEM that is dedicated to manufacturing hardware within a given sector, one of the things they don't have in their business is a team of chemists Well, can NASDAQ add that chemistry function that you know be the adopted chemistry department for that OEM? So we're not just working with them on the basis that we will engage with them in ink development just to sell them ink. Why not arm them with the chemistry know-how? Why not arm them with the inkjet fluid experience that we have got and enable them to be more successful? So managing? So this comes again into my role within the business and development team of making sure that we provide those functions, that when we, when we get the projects, when we, when we align and we create partnerships, that we're giving the full um palette of options and full palette of resources to our partners yeah, and that's I really like that.
Speaker 1:So you like a kind of innovative. You know you're not just buying it, you're buying into the innovative and uh culture and also the expertise within the r&d team that you have in-house to provide that level of service but also access to a breadth of knowledge. So I guess in a certain way, it helps de-risk a lot of these new developments, doesn't it? Because it kind of getting the ink right at the beginning like we interviewed Matt Brooks and that was one of the things he said from that as well getting the ink right at the beginning is just as important as the engineering, isn't it?
Speaker 2:absolutely. It is, um, you know, and there's often a need to be engaged right from concept, you know, and sometimes that is possible, sometimes it isn't possible. But one of the things that we really aim to provide is, when you look at the structure of nasdaq, we can be very agile, we can be very reactive to our partners needs and this, you know, it kind of aligns with inkjet generally. You know, when you look at how inkjet penetrates into the analog market, well, it offers short, quick solutions sometimes to their production needs. Okay, they need a short run, they need it individualized. Well, inkjet's the way, rather than analog Broad brush their approach. But generally that's how it is. So we need to bring that type of approach, that type of attitude, attitude as well to the development of inkjet inks.
Speaker 2:You know, if we look at purely just the size of an opportunity in numbers, how are we going to innovate?
Speaker 2:We would, every manufacturer would be after the same type of business and we would drive the price down ultimately by doing so. So if we're going to find some breakthroughs with inkjet in established sectors or we're going to take inkjet into new sectors, new production environments that don't utilize inkjet for decoration or fluid deposition, we're going to need to do things differently, you know, and we're going to have to work with our partners on the things that we all feel will be successful. But what does their product roadmap say, you know? Do they want to take some risks but can't actually, you know, calculate the return at that time, how do we help them investigate, how do we help them react to their customers' needs with chemistry when they don't have a chemistry department of their circular for themselves? So all these things play into how we actually put together our teams, how we actually engage with our partners and also how we build that relationship um for joint success yeah, I mean that's critical, and you know.
Speaker 1:My next question really in a way we've we've tackled already is um, you know it's clearly an important part of nazdar's overall portfolio, isn't it? The oem business, which is why the you know you're creating a brand for it and the value therefore it gives to your customers you've just explained really is exceptional service, access to knowledge and expertise, almost like a a kind of bolt-on chemistry department, and a level of understanding also about markets, I think's another critical factor, isn't it? So that's, that's a fantastic attribute. But the other point you made which I think is key is agility, isn't it? And speed, because things keep changing so quickly. You've got to have that, haven't you?
Speaker 2:absolutely there's um. You know there's kind of a paradox really in you know what operations teams look for and what our partners look for from the front end project engagement. We want steady, we want predictable, we want same every time from our manufacturing and that's what we get. That's what we get. However, what we need at the front end of a project is, yeah, that ability to react, adapt, overcome challenges, to fully understand what the objectives are of our customers, what their customers are asking of them, and be able to put together our product development strategies based on that.
Speaker 2:You know, we, like probably most other companies, we set out with um, some sectors in mind, some areas that we think inkjet can be successful, and absolutely we work on those independently and develop our chemistry, um to approach those markets.
Speaker 2:But once we get into um, you know, a partnership, we have got to be that, we've got to be reactive to what they need, we've got to provide a function that enables them to be successful. And you know, and it's it's that balance of where we prioritize our own developments, our own strategies, against fully understanding and aligning with our partners. And you know, and that's part of the role of myself as part of the business development team here at NASDAQ, and it's one that we're finding is very welcomed by our partners. You know they really like being able to get on a call and talk with you know not just myself, you know sometimes they want to talk to the chemist, sometimes they want to talk to the technical team in terms of, you know, the people that are involved with jetting and jet testing of our fluids to align what they're seeing to what we're doing, what they're seeing to what we're doing. So, yeah, it's uh, you know, a fully kind of immersive way of being able to provide products to to our partners.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it sounds pretty different to selling a kind of direct kind of product that that's in a very stable, established market where the chemistry is form, formulated to a certain spec and that's the end of that. It's a completely different approach by the sound of it and I like the point you make as well that I think you said before you'll go to meetings with r&d people with you and that gives them an incredible context in which an understanding of the objective as well. I think that make, that must make a big difference yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:You know, and we've got to appreciate that those you know, as you say, they're the larger, more stable elements of the market, of production. They all come from an idea originally, they all come from an innovation, a thought, you know. And so if we don't harvest the thoughts, if we don't encourage the innovation, you know the industry isn't going to have those. You know those stable areas where you know, where we concentrate on regular production, building volume, all those things that keep our business functioning, and what we put into innovation, what's going to be for next year, what's going to be in five years, ten years. We've got to have a spread of those things within our business thinking.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and I guess I know one. Uh, the key things is obviously so much of this is confidential, isn't it then you're working with ams? Any examples you might be able to give about how you work? I mean, you kind of explained already, haven't you, that you're very consultative. It's very it's about tapping into expertise, not just product. It's almost about co-creation, isn't it? It's beyond, it's beyond collaboration, it's like.
Speaker 2:But you're creating something new, this bespoke customer's requirement yeah, absolutely, and it's understanding the wider objectives that you know. And a lot of these things come from pain points within certain sectors, you know. And one thing you know as you say, anonymity is absolutely key. But one of the things you and I have spoken about um previously is ultra high viscosity when we look at that in terms of what an ink manufacturer can do to overcome pain points. That's the reason why a development like that is successful, not because, well, now we're making fluids at a high viscosity for inkjet. You know, in the screen side of our business, though, the viscosities that we're actually operating at there are very low, you know they're they're on thousands of centipodes, so that's nothing new.
Speaker 2:But maybe what is new is when we look at things like power consumption for drying of water-based things.
Speaker 2:Just, we'll pick that one. Maybe looking at that from a chemistry point of view, not a hardware and power point of view, is kind of new. You know, how can we add to the solution for that particular oem, wider than that, not just for the oem, for that industry, for that sector, how can we contribute, not just for that. Sustainability is a massive thing, you know, and how can we face forward in terms of sustainability and the direction in which we're going with our chemistry, and that's a perfect example that enables us to look at how we might get water-based things to dry quicker dry with less energy, those types of things and within that we start to build advantages for our partners, both locally and on a macro level, yeah, different perspective as well, and that sort of makes me think, actually, you know, so you're an OEM, I put myself into the OEM position and we're working with NASDAQ, so you really help manufacturers, I suppose, differentiate their products and kind of ensure performance and other aspects really.
Speaker 1:So what you're doing is really providing an end-to-end solution.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely Absolutely that end-to-end in terms of from concept right through the development process, through the manufacturing, through logistics, through even co-marketing. Some of our partners market the fact that NASDAQ manufacture their OEM inks, but a little bit more than that. How can we help them address some of the challenges? So you know, a lot of oem relationships are based on what we would call roadmap alignment. You know, a hardware manufacturer has an ink manufacturer and they align on the way that they want to go. Well, what about if the ink manufacturer absolutely did that with the oem partner but then also had innovative developments themselves that they could introduce to that partner? That may shape how they approach their roadmap alignment for hardware?
Speaker 2:You know, when we start to look at what we can do in terms of chemistry, when we can start to be part of the conversation of, you know, forming the direction of hardware within a particular industry you know, matt spoke extensively um with you a few weeks back on on packaging, water-based packaging and absolutely we need to be able to communicate, not just to the oems but to the um, the print buyers, the brand owners, everybody that's got an investment in these industries and in these sectors, what might be possible, because then we can start to understand the wider need and therefore the opportunity.
Speaker 2:But if we don't tell people about what we are able to do, then these things will never get discovered. You know, so part of you know what matt's doing, what I do, dean allen, who I know you've spoken to as well. That's what we do. We talk to people about what they need and how we might go about using chemistry, using inkjet development to overcome that, but also be part of their conversations of you know the what. If you know how about you go in this direction, how about we enable you to take this step so very interactive, very two-way and, let's say, very dynamic in the way that we want to do the development yeah, yeah, it sounds like quite diverse, I would imagine, because you're working on lots of different sort of subsets of printing.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I'm sure it keeps, keeps you uh stimulating, not least because obviously you're you're really hearing and seeing, and from from your customers in the wider market, the trends, I suppose. What trends are you sort of seeing in the oem market at the moment? And example perhaps I know ink performance sustainability. You've already mentioned um print heads such as does ours, ultra high viscosity one, um, yeah, what, what kind of trends are you seeing in the oem market?
Speaker 2:be really interested to understand if you don't mind sharing yeah, and obviously, um, there's going to be some generalizations, and we've spoken about things like sustainability, so I'll leave that one um aside. And there's people to speak on sustainability that are far more knowledgeable than I am, but when we look outside of our industry, what are people? Uh, what's influencing the global markets? What? What technologies are changing? What are, what are the habits that are having the biggest impact? And when we look at things like ai you know using ai in different formats, when we come to product decoration, when we come to things like printing, decorative printing for furniture, for flooring, for packaging we're we are now in a, in a, in a different environment. So, for example, where printing you, where the, the product, used to be limited by the printing process, we are finding that is now breaking down. So what we're then seeing is well, the equipment manufacturers are adapting to this. What can we, as an inkjet development company, do to aid this as well? So it's looking at a macro trend, a macro influencer, influencer and seeing where we fit to, you know, enable people to adapt to that.
Speaker 2:When we look at how people are consuming products and how they want to buy so you know, internet purchases a lot of personalization these trends come around relatively quickly. You know they are um, they're here to stay, but they will develop. So how do we put our partners in a position to take the maximum advantages from these things? So, yeah, so things like that that we, you know, we're seeing inkjet now actually come into its own to be really adopted as the solution when people want fast turnaround for their products, when they they, you know, next day shipping, when they want personalization of a small number of products and, you know, and functional inkjet as well. So, yeah, there are a lot of opportunities we're seeing, particularly, let's say, packaging, and particularly when we start to look at the macro trends and how we can react to them particularly when we start to look at the macro trends and how we can react to them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and, and I guess one of the uh, I'm going to use the word advantage, but one of the positives out of a a changing world perhaps it was kind of way of phrasing it um, with supply chain disruption, with rapidly changing consumer demand, with geopolitical tensions and stuff actually is, is that, is that what? What is perhaps breaking down the barriers to adopting inkjet because of that ability to just do things that analog can't do?
Speaker 2:yeah, absolutely, and I think we saw some of those trends um start many years ago, particularly, for example, in textiles and garment printing, where certainly nearshoring became a huge driver, let's say, in industry. You know, it's no um, it's no secret that you know. A lot of that changed from being very seasonal four seasons a year to multiple seasons a year, to no seasons. It's now more fluid than that and as we're looking at the way that that develops, I think we're starting to see that okay, maybe different drivers, like you say, geopolit, you know, avoiding the risk of having, you know, to import products from other countries.
Speaker 2:The vulnerability of having your business rely on that isn't ideal. So what can people do about it? We can make the right solutions, uh, and get those to market at a price that enables people to adopt them locally. We then see the proliferation of inkjet and we fix a problem, you know, and within that, you know, you've then not got the shipping of goods um around the world, that type of thing. So, yeah, it's really reassuring that the future of inkjet looks to be aligning with some of the major global directions and changes for the better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and, like you say, even though this was potentially possible a few years ago, at the end of the day, when economic pressure is forced on businesses, that's when change starts to accelerate, I think, doesn't it? So the creative potential doesn't seem to be the driver it seems to be. We need to sort this problem out, as you said earlier about problem solving I'd absolutely agree.
Speaker 2:But also, I think there is another thing that that influences that and that is familiarity with technology. Okay, so once we once inkjet enters into the uh, the realm, enters into the thinking of an industry, all of a sudden we find that industry using it for more and more and different parts of their production, different parts of their process, and and again. That's a really exciting thing. You know, um, we've come a long way from printing um office documents and you know they're moving on to outdoor advertising and things and we're seeing inkjet in a lot of realms. Now I think there has been some real um forerunners in technology in that.
Speaker 2:So when you look at things like additive manufacturing, taking inkjet into the manufacturer of products in a whole host of different sectors, that's inkjet getting a foothold, people starting to understand the technology and going, ah, do you know what? I know another place for that. Now I need a partner that can think like me, that can work with me. I don't understand inkjet, ink chemistry, but I think I know where inkjet can go. Who do I work with to do this? And that is where I feel NASDAQ comes into its own.
Speaker 1:And then I imagine you get a change with some of the perhaps use the word converters developing technology as well. So not in a, you know I mean. So you're kind of dealing with some oems, and then I hear as well that converters are starting to some of the larger ones to develop technology with integrators. But you know what I mean. So it's, so, it's, it's, it's, it's giving that ability to, like you say, if you get to know the technology and you can see uses for it elsewhere, it's quite exciting, isn't it? You mentioned um, because we're touching on packaging, I suppose, there. But you mentioned functional inkjet. Do you mind defining what functional inkjet is, because I'm interested in that space.
Speaker 2:I just wondered where the developments were there yeah, well, one of the best examples is the use of varnishes in inkjet for printing braille. This is just one example out of thousands. But when you look at the need to have braille printed on multiple different types of products that inkjet can cater for, well, how wide is that market? Well, it's potentially on most products, most consumer products. You know in the, in the packaging, and so you look at that and you think, well, there's a direction inkjet could go in. That's going to cover across many, many thousands of different sectors. So that's just one example. You know product embellishment and that functional side.
Speaker 2:But when we look at additive manufacturing as well, the use of inkjet in what's typically known as 3D printing, well, now you're getting into almost every different type of manufacturing industry. You know, now you're looking to displace some massive cost centers for businesses. You know when people look at well, can we put? Uh, should we put a warehouse, or to hold 10 million parts, or should we get three highly productive additive manufacturing printers? Well, now inkjet's gone into a different sector. Uh, yeah, um, and it's these elements that we need to look at and it's people from outside the typical print industry that are going to drive that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and I'm interested in that, of course, because with Future Print in Munich in January, our focus is more industrial and we're finding that the conversation with our partners has shifted in 10 years. Partly you'd imagine it to anyway, because we know the world's very different now. But the technology has moved beyond perhaps just the decorative, which is still pretty amazing, but much more into. Actually. It's about the function of devices and the function of manufacturing. So it's not necessarily a decorative purpose. You mentioned 3D. That's the actual product, but I mean, you know, it's laying down coatings or specific fluids and using the word deposition, which isn't even the word printing, but it's about the making of the device. So the device works, whatever that might be, whether it's automotive, medtech or consumer electronics. So it's. It's quite exciting, isn't it?
Speaker 2:absolutely it is, and you know, when you look at the potential for growth, you know, I think, that proliferation of inkjet is is the lifeline of our industry. You know we have to embrace that and we have to find ways of working um outside of, let's say, our comfort zone. Or, you know, a decorative print, um, how do we better align ourselves with these different sectors? How do we even simple things like modify our language so that it's more understandable? Yeah, fluid fluid deposition well, that's just putting fluid where it needs to be accurately.
Speaker 1:Oh well, and you're right, because a lot of these people in the supply chain, businesses in the supply chain may not even use the word printing, right, so that they may understand what you mean, but they're using words like deposition and stuff like this, which sounds almost like a legal word.
Speaker 1:So, yes, a new language, it's a new field and that's exciting in itself, and I think that we're hearing some really interesting massive efficiency gains that Inkjet is enabling that previously had to be done analog and now be done with inkjet, and it's saving huge amounts of money and and like going back to what I was saying earlier, once the economic case and argument is is compelling and the technical delivery is good in, you know, more than good enough, which it is, then we're going to start seeing some interesting new developments, I think, um, so, just coming into a final question, mike, so obviously we're going to start seeing some interesting new developments, I think. Um, so, just coming into a final question, mike, so obviously we're touching on the future now, anyway, but I just kind of what? Yeah, leave us with your, with your view of perhaps where you see the biggest opportunity for nasdaq, perhaps in in regards to application sectors or technology breakthroughs sectors or technology breakthroughs.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, as we've spoken previously, you know we're really excited about um, some of the innovations we're part of with water-based packaging, um, water-based in general and ultra high viscosity the things that that can enable. You know, there is nothing magic, nothing that special about producing a fluid, an inkjet, ink that is at a high viscosity, but the amount of chemistry that we are able to pack into that really is unlocking a lot of doors. It's enabling inkjet to go into areas that it couldn't previously and that's the most exciting part, it's offering solutions by enabling us to put chemistry into those inks, into those fluids that solve problems. You know what are the big problems for water-based packaging? What are the big problems for water-based decoration of products for home furnishings? A lot of these things can be solved through chemistry.
Speaker 2:Ultra-high viscosity gives us a window to be able to do that, you know. It gives us more tools, it gives us more levers to pull and you know NASDAQ has got 100 years' history of making inks at a high viscosity that are very, very functional, and I think this is a real exciting time for nasdaq, where you feel that we've got our business assembled in a way that makes us very, um, easy and good to work with from a development point of view and we've got a lot of background knowledge in terms of application, in terms of functionality and bringing those two worlds together. Yeah, it's a lot of fun and it's paying dividends, I think, for our partners and we're getting a lot of engagement through that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's very positive, future-focused stuff, which, for any business, is super important, isn't it? And I know that you guys and the wider NASDAQ, you're all um inspired by innovation. I think would be fair to say um. Listen, thanks for joining and having a chat. Really interesting talking with you, hearing the story, understanding more about the oem inks business, your purpose and role within the business and and also I'm seeing that the team's growing significantly, isn't it? In the past six months, you're adding more and more people to the team. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, you interviewed Matt not long ago and, having Matt on board and you know, a real expert, a real specialist in these areas, it's absolutely essential to enable our partners to be able to speak with someone that knows their pain points, knows how to translate that into a solution through inject chemistry. So, uh, yeah, we're expanding, we're growing. Um, yeah, it's a great time to be at nasdaq.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and the tech team are growing as well, aren't they? The r&d lab team as well, I noticed. So that's, that's clearly a really positive thing. Well, listen, thanks for joining us. Mine great conversation and, uh, we'll have to reconnect at some point in the future. Um about um developments and how the world's changing, perhaps after future print in munich in january excellent, sounds good.
Speaker 2:Thank you, marcus, and I look forward to it.
