FuturePrint Podcast
FuturePrint is dedicated to and passionate about the power of print technology to enable new opportunities and create new value. This pod features deep-dive discussions with the people behind the tech as well as market analysis, trends, marketing and storytelling!
FuturePrint Podcast
#275 - Inkjet’s Fibre Future: How Digital Printing Is Reshaping Packaging
Digital is moving from promise to production in packaging. In this episode, Marc Graindourze, Business Manager for Industrial Inks at Agfa, explains how water-based consumables, process control and smart partnerships are unlocking fibre-based packaging at industrial speed.
We cover why folding carton and corrugated are “natural fits” for inkjet right now; how water-based formulations simplify indirect food-contact compliance; and why primers and varnishes matter just as much as the ink itself. Marc breaks down the roles of primer (holding pigment at the surface for sharp text and colour), ink (delivering density and gamut), and varnish (providing rub and water resistance) — and why separating these functions improves stability, consistency and cost control.
You’ll hear a concise tour of preprint versus postprint in corrugated: preprint offers ultra-high throughput and tighter process control, but inks must survive the corrugator’s heat and pressure; postprint brings agility for shorter runs, with adapted waveforms and careful gap control. We discuss how connected packaging, track-and-trace and regulatory drivers are pushing brands toward digital — alongside sustainability moves away from plastics and toward recyclable fibre.
Beyond the lab, Marc emphasises the collaboration imperative: OEM engineering expertise plus ink chemistry, validated with real field tests and clear market access. The economics are improving too — not only on print cost, but across the workflow: faster time-to-market, reduced inventory and less waste. The goal is not a one-off “hero” print, but consistent, repeatable quality at speed.
If you work across packaging, inks, or OEM systems — or you’re a brand owner exploring digital — this is a practical roadmap to making inkjet work on fibre at production scale
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FuturePrint TECH: Industrial Print: 21-22 January '26, Munich, Germany
Hello, hello, hello. Can you hear me now? Test, test, test. Test, test, test. Can you hear me? Perfect. Okay. So just testing, just testing. So welcome to the future print podcast. I'm Eleanor Knight. Today we're looking at digital printing from packaging, what works now, what's moving from trauma to production and where inks and coatings make the real difference. My guest today is Mark Randall's business manager for industrial inks at ECFA. So we've all heard about AgFA, but could you please tell us a bit more about you? Welcome, Mark.
SPEAKER_00:Hi, thanks, Elena, and thanks for the opportunity. So, yeah, I'm I'm business manager of a segment which is Industrial Inc., which is let's call it simple. It's ACFA consumables, injet consumables, for working with partners. So companies building printers that are good engineering companies, but need good chemical experts that are injet ink experts. This we're doing since 2004. So we have a long experience both in UV curable injet inks and water-based injet inks. Not always only ink. You need sometimes primer, varnish. Sometimes it's even combination with an analog primer and varnish together with the ink. That comes back in this story, by the way. So I'm actively working with partners, but also with the enablers as print ads and drying and curing, etc., to be able to design with our team here and to deliver to our customers good consumables for high demand applications.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. Fabulous. Okay, so we're talking about high demand applications. So I'm assuming we're talking sort of industrial and packaging applications, that sort of thing, um, and also other areas. But I think today we'll be looking more into the sort of the packaging applications. Um and Inkit has also become a real force in labor printing, but what about sort of the packaging industry more broadly? Where is digital printing already making headway and what's still on the horizon? So, from your perspective, what can you tell us about that?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's a good moment to discuss this because we see a lot of focus in the world of packaging to look what can injet bring. And you mentioned label, because label was at the forefront of this. And there's already a very long time label that is being printed digital, first of all with toner, but then soon after injet followed. And of course, injet has some key advantages in the print with adhesion to many multiple substrates. And in label, part of the transition has happened, especially in the field of the premium labels. There you see a high intake of label printing by Injet.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:My focus today will be what we call fiber-based packaging. The main types there are folding carton and corrugated carton. So to boxes that are made of carton to pack the primary or secondary, tertiary all around the product. So that will be my focus of today. Of course, there is uh one item left, which is flexible packaging, which is uh one of the biggest ones. Much more challenging. Also, there are already some progress within jet, but in view of time, I would like to focus today purely on the fiber-based packaging. And and when you look to to what's happening in the in-get industry and more general printing industry, a lot of focus during the events, including yours, the tech evaluation. Valentia, have a focus on label and packaging. There was just the label expo, which also introduced looking to carton. Um there was the FEFCO Technical Seminar uh two weeks ago in Rome, where uh the industry experts, over a thousand people meet each other. Um, although it's a correlated box, it's still a lot of technology behind it. Uh, similar thing happened in the Foly Carton work with ECMA having a big annual meeting a few weeks ago. So there is a lot of attention on those during those meetings about digital printing, mainly in jet. And uh there is an event coming up by ESMA, the IPI, which is for me a nice platform to meet people because you meet uh all the key players that build, that bring together the parts of the system and their end users. And this is in in in Noise Dufeldorf, uh, November 12, 13. And I have a speaking slot on the second day about fiber-based packaging to discuss a bit uh more in detail than today, and more technical, about what is important looking to the consumables for printing on fiber-based packaging.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, fabulous. So you you say there's obviously a lot going on in this in this market, in this area, um, lots of you know, conferences happening, um, and there's a lot of momentum behind digital printing packaging. So, what do you think is actually driving that growth? Is it about the speed, the flexibility, or is it maybe sustainability and regulations? Um, so what do you think the bigger levers are in this area?
SPEAKER_00:Well, all of those that you mentioned are important or key drivers. Um, but but a bit more. So the typical digital highlights, the typical reasons to go digital do apply also here, uh, which is time to market. Um, you can do a lot of variations, you can version, you could do special series, you can do special designs, you can do a lot of stuff. Um we are in decorative printing for more than 10 years. There, that's really happening. Even artificial intelligence generated designs are happening there. The packaging comes later, but is now the key element to discuss. Packaging will always stay, of course. Um and next to time to market, the the from a brand owner's perspective, uh, time to market, personalized packaging, um multimedia campaigns whereby the packaging is reflected in in the television spots and and so on. Um, that everything is connected. What they're looking for is the connection with the consumer, so that there is a direct interaction. At the moment, the customer is buying on the shelf, the product needs to stand out, and of course, Injet gives much more options there.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Taking a step back in the B2B market world, you have those big concerns that produce the packaging in direct cooperation with the big brand owners. There is also a lot happening. And specifically for corrugated and printing, there is specific happening. A lot of thinking about how to improve within jet printing, track and trace, warehouse management management, the regulations that change, uh, limitation of use of plastic, for instance, and um a specific for pharmaceuticals, the individual identification and traceability of a certain batch to where it's where it is going, where which part of the world have in that batch, and if there would be a potential claim or risk. So a lot of things you can do with the packaging. It's not only how it looks, but it's more functional.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:And last but not least, uh, it's a box, and the product has a cost, the box should be relatively cheap. So there is a cost pressure on all aspects on a box. Printing brings cost, of course, but the storage, the material, all includes in the cost and needs to be uh, let's say, practical or suited for the need. Of course, when you have luxury products, then it's more easy to spend a lot of money on a packaging, but for regular products, cost is a factor. And like I said, the label to the engine is more the premium labels, but here in fiber-based packaging, we're really looking to all types of boxes from a low amount of print on it to uh a fully printed box. That's all in scope with Engine.
SPEAKER_02:Right, are you back? Sorry, we lost connection for a few seconds there.
SPEAKER_00:I saw that you were floating. You have all on it or not?
SPEAKER_02:Um I'm I I could still see you and hear you, but it just sort of um just sort of jumped a bit. But we can cut that a month, that's no problem. We've got all that. So I'm gonna I'm gonna carry on with the next question.
SPEAKER_00:A bit struggling with my words and some No, it's good, don't Mummy.
SPEAKER_02:We'll we can we can cut this a bit a month, that's no problem at all. Um, so thanks for that. So just going back to the sort of basics a bit more about the fibre-based packaging. So you're talking about obviously the corrugated and the folding cartons. So, why do you feel that those are such a natural fit for inkjet right now? So if you can just go back deep into inkjet on those types of materials.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, very good question. Uh, it's indeed uh where we see the the B2B and the brand owner interest to use the advantages of inkjet printing. And also here we see that there are regular new introductions of print solutions to deliver either print on folding carton, either uncorrugated, and they're quite separated because they're quite different in the nature of the carton. Folding carton is relatively thin, a full uh cart a corrugated carton, of course, contains the flute inside and has many, many different thicknesses because it needs to protect during the full transport. So a corrugated cardboard box contains many products inside, typically. So it's an overpack if you want. Secondary packaging is used, but less and less this term is used, but it's it's what it is. It's a kind of a secondary material to host multimal amounts of an individual product. So it can be shell-flight packaging, transport, e-commerce packaging, all kinds of things, typically for fast-moving consumer goods and in the B2B stream. Um, but under the pressure of in Europe of using less plastics, a good example of what's happening with corrugated boxes is the packaging of washing liquid pods. Used to be a plastic pouch that is removed by a corrugated box. The same functionality, but remember that the corrugated is often recycled multiple times. So it's a much more sustainable initiative to go away. The big brand owners have done this move away from the plastic pouches to the corrugated boxes. Now, corrugated boxes is, as I mentioned, is price sensitive. We have unprinted one or two colors, four colors. We have barcodes or router codes on it, QR codes on it, uh a brand logo. So we have a very big variation of potential images on there. It's not always a lot of ink, or let's say not a lot of surface area coverage on a corrugated box. And very specific for this market, the corrugator, which is the equipment that makes the corrugated with the fluid and the two liners, the bottom and the top one, they run an incredibly high speed.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Multiple hundreds of meters per minute. So typical three, four hundred meters a minute is no surprise. So if you want to follow that by printing, you have to print very, very fast. And the width is at least two meter 50, can be even over three meters. So it's a very, very high output that you then have to deliver when you want to print in line or close to the line of the corrugator. That's very specific for corrugators. Well, folding carton is much more promotional and informative. When you buy a coffee machine, it's in a folding box, carton box, and it's fully printed. A lot of marketing on it, explanation, how to use it, and so on. So, and for of course, when it's a folding carton box for a luxury product, it's very stylish for a whiskey or a beauty care product, not always fully printed, but a lot of effects and highlights, so a bit more money for that luxury. But the folding carton is a more surface area coverage typically than on corrugated. And of course, it's thinner and it's another way that it's handled, it's printed more sheet to sheet, can be roll-to-roll or roll-to-sheet. So there are a lot of differences in the nature of how to print. And how can you implement inget then? Giving those facts and figures, um, but it's all about the workflow. How are you gonna create the images? Uh, how you're gonna bring the artworks to your print, how you're gonna handle the material, and once it's printed, what is the next process happening on the printed material? Okay, finishing, gluing in case of a folding carton, also gluing in case of a corrugated box. Can be not necessary, but can be. So there are so many things that you need to do. And if you have, instead of having one big long analog run, now have a combination of many shorter run lengths of digital printed, one after another, you have to manage those orders, the separation of the orders, and you have you have to be able in your factory to manage multiple smaller runs instead of always doing the same. So it's a it's a way of thinking, a workflow management thing that you need to do when you go in it.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Last but not least, uh, the materials. You you started your question is what is now specific about those materials? Well, a foli carton, it's relatively thin. You can troll very well in an inject print the throwing distance between the printed nozzle plate and your substrate. It's quite easy to gain that close, which is advantageous for the image quality, of course. The droplets do not have to travel a long way.
SPEAKER_02:And is this what you call gap gap control?
SPEAKER_00:Is that the right gap throwing distance? Okay, two terms used for this.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so it's typically one, one and a half millimeter when you can do that. When you can reach that, this is optimal for your print quality. Okay, but in case of correlated cartoon, yeah, that's a more a live uh porous uh substrate. Um, often it's brown, so it's colored, so color management is more difficult. Ink absorption in those pores can be enormous, and when you print sheet on a sheet, they're typically not fully flat. So it's called bulb, meaning that they're on the ends farther away from the plate or the transport belt, and meaning that you have to put your print that's higher and your print gap might increase to two or three millimeters, okay, which then makes more uh important to have a waveform design that brings the image quality at a high speed. So it's more challenging in that respect. Of course, when you do uh on a controlled way that you print on the liner, which I will explain later, then you control the print cap even for corrugators. Now, I forgot to mention that we're only looking to water-based inks and consumers. It's a natural fit with something which is fiber-based. Uh, it makes life easier for food contact, indirect food contact printing. Uh you print on the outside of the box. Um, it's easier with water-based ink. Yeah, raw materials are cheaper. Um the gloss can be better controlled. Uh, so there is a there are many UV systems coming from sign and display. Many of those white format UV printers are also used to print some short series on boxes, on corrugated, and that's perfectly okay to do it. You don't have to invest in a specific printer to print on the box, I mean on the sheet or on the on the on the roll. But when you go really for output for production, and that's my focus, single pass print in high output for folding carton and corrugated, then water-based seems to be for me the natural choice, and not UVings with some potential risks to use them, disadvantages is a better word, when doing single pass high speed.
unknown:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Specifically packaging, not design, yeah, uh POS, uh, really looking to boxes.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. And um, so we've obviously touched on on the inks and and things. So looking at consumables as a whole, um, there's a lot going on behind the scenes, isn't there? So you've got the the primers um and all sorts of things. So can you walk us through how those elements work together to deliver that quality and durability, the cost effectiveness, and as you say, it has to be you know a very good quality print. Um, so can you give us a bit more information on that and talk us through that?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so so looking to water-based, and for for ink chemists, the challenge is always to combine all functionalities that that you need for your print with stability, um, jetting reliability, uh, sustainability, all the aspects together to bring that in one single formulation, one ink that does everything together, that's really difficult. And might result in an ink that is not very long shelf life. So that's where the approach comes from to separate the functions by primer, ink, and varnish when needed.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:But the primer is more the focus on together with the ink, it will control where your pigments will be after printing, after drying. The better you keep your pigment controlled in the top of your your porous media, not giving feathering into the fibers, not giving bleeding deep and dot spreading too much. That is a some combination you do primer and ink. By doing that in the ink, you make an unstable ink. By separating that into fluids with a primer that typically then has no color, is relatively cheap in formulation, can be analog, can be injet. You bring that together with the injet ink, they work together and they bring you the image quality. For really good protection, wrap resistance, water resistance, and so on, the varnish comes on top. When you would combine it again with your link, you make it very difficult to make a stable ink. That's why it's sometimes better to separate that function into a varnish. So that's the play field. And depending on, let's look into corrugated for a moment. I talked about preprint and postprint. What is preprint? Preprint is that you print on one liner on a row, so that's the advantage that you can control very well the roll, the speed, you can go quite easy to 400 meters a minute, you can do a wide roll, can be 2 meter 80 easily, and you have a very good control of the print gap. So that is all very well controlled. Of course, you print before you make the corrugated, because next step is that your print goes in contact with the fluid, goes to the press, goes to the steam where you make the corrugated. So your ink has to survive that. Your ring cannot sort off on rollers of the corrugator, etc. So that's a difficulty, but on the other hand, you get a lot of advantages of your preprint in quality, in speed, in handling control, uh, much more suited for longer runs. Um, even when you do barcode, there is a way to do that variabilization. It's being done in the industry today already, in monochrome version of a preprint. Okay, so that's one thing. You print on a roll, you control everything very well. Um, you control your humidity, uh, you control your printing environment, but you go to the corrugator, and an ink needs to be designed that is perfect for that. And your your full width of the roll is flat by the B how you transport it. So you have no variation left to right, uh, start to end, like you could have on a sheet. Post print is it's already made the corrugated, it's cut in sheets, and the sheets go under the printhead bars, and you have to lift them a bit to control the print cap because if you would make contact physically with the corrugated sheet with your print, you can be very costly if you destroy a print.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely, yes.
SPEAKER_00:So there are no risk, put the print bar a bit higher, design the waveform. Typically, the speed is also lower. Um, it's typically below 100 meters a minute, so the output is lower, the width is typically also much lower for a postprint because it doesn't heat. The reference is 1.4, 1.6 meters per minute. Sorry, meter wide, so you have a total other output per hour from a preprint versus a postprint. So different conditions, but in both cases, you can play with your system design to have ink primer varnish the way you control it. Because what you want to do, you want to make your ink as effective as possible. So the primer will help in lower the ink amount you need because it controls where your ink is going to. And you have the print density that you come from from the combination of primer and ink. While the varnish gives you the protection that you bring on top. So no need to dig a thick layer of ink to get protection. No, you do that by a separate varnish which has no pigment inside, it brings you the varnish quality by the way you you formulate your varnish.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:So that's a way also to control your costs. And if you do it all digital, you put only suppose you have a very low surface area coverage, you put only primer ink and varnish where you where you need it. So instead of 100% coverage, you might have 10% coverage of the box, and only there you apply the consumer.
SPEAKER_02:Brilliant for wastage, you're just using what you need and yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:While in folding carton, where you print more and more the food box, you could really go for I put my my primer everywhere. Okay, so it all depends on your image, but of course, when you're fully digital, you can change image by image where you put down the prime. Yeah, that's an advantage of fully digital.
SPEAKER_02:And you just touched on food boxes, so obviously they're you know great food grade inks, they have to all adhere to all those different legislations, or but be careful with the term food grade inks, if I may say yeah, it's not that they're being eaten, but they it's not an eatable ink, okay.
SPEAKER_00:This is not what it is. This is this is a um um, by the way, primer ink and varnish, all the combinations need to be formulated to be suited for indirect food contact, meaning you print on the outside of the box. Okay, not the inside, then it's direct contact possible when that is possible. Suppose you take uh a vegetable carton box, you could make contact direct if you print the inner side. So typically of that boxes only the outside is printed. Of course. Um, so yeah, food, uh indirect food contact, sustainability, the inkable. Um, that's all part of the game to formulate the right consumables all together, not one. Ink only is not enough. Primary and varies also need to comply. Okay, so a lot, a lot going on there, and that of course makes it an expert job. Absolutely. You have to to what I talk now is only looking mostly to what you need to do for the application. Needs to be fully functional, needs to be color strength, it needs to be fast printing to work with the corrugated or in a fallen carton. Also, the output is important, but the design of the ink, specifically the ink, needs to fit with your choices that you will make in your print system. Which specific print that you will take, a high resolution, recirculating print at piezo is typically the choice, and that's where we are designed inks for. The drying is very important for a water-based ink. Um, the sprint speed, as I mentioned, the range of substrates, something I did not touch yet. But it's not that it's just one carton corrugated or all carton. There's so different, many different types with coatings, uncoating, the the porosity will differ, brown or white. So that gives you huge variation of substrates. Um and typically you have some priority uh ones that you select during the design time, but then you go in a in a in a beta test, the field test, and then your customer is working with all types of media or substrates, and then you learn how multifunctional you are with all those substrates. That's part of a startup of a system. So there's complexity from all kinds, but I don't want to give the impression it's too difficult. No, it's possible. Yeah, you have to just design a combination of elements which brings your printing solution, which is your hardware, your software, your ink, your maintenance, your service, everything together as a solution approach. We we are a consumable uh supplier here to OEMs building the systems in a close relationship. It's not throwing something over the wall. You do this together because if it doesn't fit, if the printed is I develop a link for the wrong print, it will never work. So it is all a combination of bringing the solution as a solution.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, and I think earlier when you introduced yourself, you mentioned it's all about collaboration, working in partnerships and sort of in a real-world environment for convertible brand exploring digital for the first time. What should they really be looking at in terms of a setup um or collaboration? Um, is it more about finding the right machine, partnering with the ink expert, or sort of getting the chemistry right? And I think what I'm trying to say is you need the whole package, don't you? So um what sort of talk a bit more about that, what you as AXA does.
SPEAKER_00:Christian. Um so I I typically like to say that when I work with a partner, a company that is building a print solution, there is two aspects that are very important. First of all, the technical expertise in Injet, but secondly, the market access. If nobody knows them, but they built good systems, we are not successful together. So they need a good link with the industry where they're looking for, and having field test candidates that are willing to check, be an early adopter, and to check the quality and learn on on a during a field test how good the solution is, and small adaptations might occur or will very likely occur. So it's all about having a combination. Of technical expertise with application and market expertise, it's all that together. And five years ago, I would have said thinking first. I'm still saying that by the way, but more and more of my customers think on time, oh, I cannot just use an ink of the shelf, I cannot just develop a system and then think ink, no, I it's from the start. What is the application? That's how it starts. What does the customer want? What is the customer target? Which kind of job will he switch first to inkjet? What is the demand? What do we need? What is the print speed? What is the typical substrate? It all starts from questioning what do we really need a solution for? And start with something that is realistic. Not start with uh with the rocket sky-high application that that everybody's dreaming of, but might be uh too soon to do that. So start with a realistic target, um, will be challenging enough. We like challenges in injet, yeah. It's good, yeah. It brings us forward, it it enhances the speed of development. Um, and there are a lot of markets in inside the packaging. It's not one global market, there's so many differences, but you need to tune your machine, uh, your engine, your solution to fit with the real commercial need. That that is my feeling that over the many years that you learn sometimes you have a fantastic technical partner, but no market access. That's a pity.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:So it's important that the market in is in there from the beginning. The customer, the the B2B, it could be the the big groups in packaging that help to drive. That's actually what's happening today. That that drives forward the industry.
SPEAKER_02:Okay.
SPEAKER_00:So I I would say that the partnership, as you mentioned, is indeed key. Let's not forget, uh, as kind of a final comment, investment level for such equipment can be relatively high. It's not something cheap, a single pass, high-speed. That's an investment. Um the pace of inject development is still very fast and is focused a lot on packaging. So that brings together why focus point is packaging today. Um, I just mentioned controlling all parts of the solution is is a must do. The only way to success. And of course, it's not only about cost, cost is important, but if the quality is not there, yeah, then there is a no-go. So the quality comes from all aspects of the solution, but certainly the consumables play an important role. And if you can make them work at their best, and with excellent reliability, batch-to-patch consistency, a consistent print output. In decoration, we always say a laminate floor, a furniture panel, they do repeat jobs sometimes every month. So every month's printed batch needs to be the same.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:So in packaging, it's similar. It needs to be consistent print output, and that comes from a combination from printer, software, workflow, ink, the consumers in general, all together work to this consistent print output. That's the target. Not the one single off print that looks nice. Everybody can do that. Yeah, no, every day a good job.
SPEAKER_02:And at high speeds as well, assuming you know, it has indeed, you know, especially single pass. Yep. And um, do you think, I mean, you mentioned the the cost as a recurring challenge, as well as the you know, the speed, the quality. Do you think we're reaching a tipping point where those economics finally are starting to make sense? So, you know, you've obviously seen pain points and pinch points. Um, do you think we're we're getting there? Do you think it's a tipping point?
SPEAKER_00:We're getting there partly, I would say. There, of course, is a big shift in the in the type of jobs. Uh, and sorry to use again um the decoration as an example, but no, it's a good example. Yeah, it is long when when 10 years ago, let's say that 1% was a short run, 2% were a short run, because they were just not economic, doable, feasible by graphious. They were so expensive, they were just done now and then in a combination sales of big runners with some small runners. That's the only way how the printing company could make make money in total with that customer. Now it's shifting by doing in-jet and still using Ravure for the very long runs, they come to a point where they make more money, where it's more efficient to do the short runs, and the short runs have increased to the double-digit number percent of the total number of jobs. So it is possible to change that. When we look to uh to the world of the brand owners, there are many products in different flavors or or different colors or different smells or perfumes, and it's a growing number of SQUs of a product that is in many many variations. Are they all a success? Do you know in the beginning if they will be a success? Which one? So there is a tendency of lower average run lengths, being a variation of one copy to hundreds of thousands. And Inset is a solution that started with a very short run, but is always upgrading yearly to longer shelf, sorry, to longer run lengths. So that tendency will fit at some point with uh a high high part, high percentage number of the total. And let's not forget the time to market. It's much faster to go digital than to go over processes with printmasters. So that's also an aspect. Sustainability, lower waste. There are many drivers. And if you call calculate them all, there's also a cost hidden in all those elements of your workflow. So cost, yes, it's something important, but that's not that's not thing that it's stopping the world. It's injet will improve its general operational cost, and and therefore will move to long run links. It has done it in decorative, now it will do it also in packaging.
SPEAKER_02:Excellent. So um lots of lots of new stuff to come there. And going back to the IPI conference that you're talking at, um, you're obviously talking about water-based inks in packaging. Can you give us a preview? What you what can people expect to hear? Without giving too much away, obviously.
SPEAKER_00:Of course, this will be a bit more visual. Um, it's sometimes easier to use a slide and present. Uh that's what a varnish looks like, that's like an ink, that's what you what you do with the primer and bring that in more visual in combination. What is the kind of homogeneous print I get with a primer compared to use no primer? What's the difference? What's the difference in line sharpness, in font size sharpness, and look printing a text, negative positive primer that is not optimal versus an optimal primer? How big is that difference? That's easy to show on a slide, and then we'll do that during the presentation as an example. Um, giving some insight on how you will match. That's what the market wants. That's that's that's what it wants. That is a bit of the system, but I will not go deep in the systems, and then focus on what is the part of the solutions can bring to make it happen. And how do you need those water-based solutions? How do they need to be designed? And how are we looking to that from an AFA point of view? It's not a commercial uh presentation, that's not allowed, that's good.
SPEAKER_02:It's a technical what are the options?
SPEAKER_00:How to make it happen that that you get a consistent print output by using water-based consumables on fiber-based packaging.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, and of course, we're going to see you in Munich in January at the future print industrial print conference at the motor world in Munich. So, um, can you tell us a bit more about what you're going to speak about there?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, and that's still in my head. I know.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, well, we'll just have to touch on that again later on.
SPEAKER_00:But but the focus will not be packaging, I think. I think I will talk more about decorative and product printing, two of the highlights. Automotive is an example. I hope many people of the automotive industry will turn up. They know music very well. The location is very well suited for that.
SPEAKER_01:Yep.
SPEAKER_00:So I'm looking forward to that event, which is for me quite unique. I think it's the first time you will do an event like this. I hope it's really gonna bring a lot of people together to again see the partnership happening on the floor, and but have enough people from the industry to to make them think to use inget.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely, it's going to be really interesting because we'll have machines there that will be working, and you know, you can talk to the experts on the on the shop floor. So no, we're really excited about it. So before we wrap up, is there anything else you'd like to touch on? Anything that we haven't spoken about that we might have missed?
SPEAKER_00:Well, I think uh touched uh we touched on the key uh there are always much more details, but yep. Let's stick to the the top level of of the discussion here. And uh I think we touched the key elements of looking to consumables and what they can bring to print on on water-based, sorry, with water-based on fiber-based packaging.
SPEAKER_02:Fantastic. It was really lovely to have you here. Thank you, Mark, um, for your time. And I hope our listeners enjoyed it. So thank you very much, and we'll speak to you soon. Okay. Take care. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks. Bye bye. Bye bye. So I've just stopped the recording.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
