FuturePrint Podcast
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FuturePrint Podcast
#315 - Clean Slate: Rethinking Events
In this episode of the FuturePrint Podcast, Marcus Timson is joined by Nova Abbott, Claire Goodchild, and Sarah Goodchild – the creators of the documentary Clean Slate: Rethinking Events.
Drawing on decades of experience across global exhibitions, brand events, and live experiences, the trio explore a hard truth about the events industry: while events are temporary by design, their environmental impact is anything but.
The conversation unpacks how time pressure, habit, and “last-minute thinking” drive unnecessary waste - particularly in areas like graphics, signage, carpets, and event builds. The film features some eye-opening research tracking what actually happens to event waste after breakdown, revealing that even “recyclable” materials often end up incinerated or in landfill. Together they reflect on the professional and personal tension of learning about the environmental impact of events, while continuing to working inside a fast-moving, dynamic and creative industry.
Crucially, this is not a preachy sustainability discussion. The film, and this conversation, focuses on systems, not blame. The creators explain why real change starts at the very beginning of the event planning process, and why sustainability only becomes expensive when it is treated as an afterthought.
From the importance of the three Rs (reduce, reuse, recycle) to building confidence to challenge “business as usual”, this episode is a thoughtful, practical call to rethink how events are designed, delivered, and dismantled.
A must-listen for anyone involved in events, exhibitions, marketing, or live experiences – and anyone who attends them.
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Welcome to the latest episode of the Future Print podcast. I'm really excited to have with me today three creators of an amazing documentary called Clean Slate Rethinking Events. It's entirely focused on sustainability with a focus on the event industry. Really happy to have with me Claire Goodchild, Nova Abbott, and Sarah Goodchild. Welcome to the Future Print Podcast.
SPEAKER_00:Hello, thank you. Thank you for having us.
SPEAKER_01:No, thank you. And you're joining us for three different countries. Sarah's in London, Nova's in Taiwan, Claire is in Spain, and I'm in sort of the London area as well. So really happy you've joined us. The film's out there, I can vouch for it. It's a really inspiring, enlightening, eye-opening um film, and really, really worth checking it out. And we're going to talk about it now. So give us a feel for the idea of the film, the purpose of the film, and how it came about, Claire. And maybe maybe explain a bit about who you are and your background. I think I'll start with Claire first.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, hi. So my background is I was working in events for around 18 years. I started in the exhibition industry, and I went on, yeah, for about 18 years, I ended up freelancing for 14 of those across all sorts of events. So exhibitions, conferences, brand launches, retreats, weddings, even, high-touch executive invite-only events. So a real broad selection of events. And then I don't know if you want to bring in here how I met Nova.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, explain that because it it it this idea as well kind of came about via sort of the three of you talking about what you do and so on and so forth. Yeah, because it gives us a good feeling. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:That's right. So Nova and I, we actually met about 20 years ago at our first ever exhibition company that we worked at. And although we only worked together for a couple of years, we've remained friends um across countries, just tracking each other's careers in in events and around events and all sorts. We've just remained friends really. Um and the idea for the documentary came up um when Nova was over in the UK uh for an event that she'd been visiting, and we decided to go for dinner. So um Nova, myself, and my sister, who is also in event, she'll give you her background in a minute, it's much more accomplished than mine. Um but um we all went for dinner and we were discussing how uh the industry is, how our lives are, how now we're mothers and how our lives changed. Um and Nova was just explaining to us a little bit about the research that her company's done and some of the statistics that she told us about were kind of shocking, to be honest, um, about the amount of waste that they had uh discovered. And and uh well, I'll let Nova go into that a little bit more. But basically, this is where the idea came from. We started talking about how um our industry that we love very much was causing quite a lot of waste, and what could we do about it? As three very busy women, we didn't really know what we could do about it. You know, our voices are like the strongest in sustainability. I I personally don't, I'm not a leader in sustainability. It was just something that I'm aware of as a human being that, oh god, this doesn't feel right. Um but what I do have is the ability to create film and video. So we got talking and decided maybe a way to start bringing this up into the public domain, but also the industry to get it talking a little bit more about it was that I could use my skills as a video producer using their information, and we could get some of our contacts, some of our industry um experts to help us and start digging a little deeper and bring this to well the public. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, and great job. It's a fantastic film. I I love it in the sense that it's an inspiring call to action, but it's not preachy, it's not uh holding um any individual or any organization into account. It's kind of uh rethinking, I think, is the right word. It kind of makes you think. So you mentioned Nova there. So no, before we get into Sarah, no, Nova, give us a little bit about your background and and and how this, because I think you you've kind of given some of the insights around the levels of waste and perhaps some of the things that could be known about it. Give give us a bit of background about yourself and yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_00:Um Nova, um, yeah, as I'm playing as we met um each other 20 years ago. Um, I relocated back to Taiwan um 10 years ago, and I've been working for a um well banner. Well, basically it's a Neville banner um grant for Cabalan. Um and then as part of the job, um we also needed to research and basically it's not just upon materials, it's also the the whole uh numbers on um um the lifecycle assessments that we do for our materials, and then subsequently we discovered that, okay, um well I personally discovered that um from um really from recycling and really the the recycle recycle um recycling sort of um uh method um because that's what um our industries have been talking about, is actually um it is good, but it's actually not going to change um um the course. The course is actually uh we need to start from the reduction part of it, that sort of thing. So um when I was um um I'm old for dinner that was um just after COVID really and close to uh 20 uh 2022, and then um we were the only sort of um uh in the company um that I can travel, or the others they're still getting kind of um post-lockdown that you know you can go out and can't, that sort of thing. So I was sent to to uh to Europe to PCS radio. Um and then um yeah, me, Claire, and Sarah met up, um, and then we talked about the um the research was done. Um, and one of them would be, you know, um, did you know? I don't know if you do claim Marcus that actually 35% of the events waste um was actually banner related materials. I mean, um our um part of the banners is only a small part because it's relatively niche, but generally speaking, is in the banner um category. And and um and then um that's only uh one of the uh this the um the stats that we we we can share. And then Sarah was on about um at the time saying um her campaign, the campaign that um she ran, um um of which she can give you some more details later, therefore they lipton um iced tea um and also um more of um the events that she went into that she talked to us. So um just during this discussion, it just uh it just um kind of um um Claire used a really good uh verb to describe it, it's just snowboard into something that we we know is happening, and then it's getting really uncomfortable for us to sit there and then do nothing with it by knowing what we know and then not doing something um about it now that we are all uh mothers to um to our young daughters. So um it's just becoming more of a not exactly a mission, it's more of a um, I think a feeling, a comfortable, uncomfortable feeling that we we can't sit around, we've got to do something with it. So hence the the drive and the birth of um of this documentary.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. And like I said, it's a really, really excellent produced film. Um Sarah, your role in this, obviously, you feature in the film quite a bit, don't you? I I know it's just you you you're sort of narrating it, I believe.
SPEAKER_02:Um, that wasn't the intention to begin with of giving myself a leading role. But yes, um, I was brought in, obviously, as Nova and Claire said, after this conversation, it's not something that just happened overnight. You know, I had been thinking about it actually myself for a number of years. Um, and every event, uh, you know, as a sort of consultant freelancer, I work a lot on various projects throughout the year, but each one at the time of going through the creative, etc., I was starting to think, hmm, and how much weight will this generate? And that, you know, I was beginning to feel a little uncomfortable because as a consultant or freelancer, you are put into agencies or work with different clients. Of course, you want to do your best work, you want to do your best job, and you also want to be hired again. And there is this slight thing, uh, or I felt this slight thing about being a troublemaker for um trying to push that. Have we thought about doing this a different way because, or it, you know, all those kind of things? And it it was more that I didn't have the stats to support um what I was what I was feeling, but I could just see, like I knew that I had just built an event that went up in three days and came down in, I don't know, two hours. And I knew that the person collecting the waste was just going to be taking its landfill. So those real experiences for me really, I felt so excited having this conversation and looking at myself and over and clear, knowing we could actually do something great here from a personal level. And to your point, and I think it's really important to say we're not sustainability experts. And I think that comes across in our film where it's just people from passion, and and we uh I hope get the message across in a way that is palatable and people can understand and then have their own conversations. Um, and so it helped for Nova to be having all of these stats and facts and figures that also helped me then go on when I'm within an agency or with a client to say, actually, did you know? And obviously with Claire making really compelling work with a strong narrative and you know creative arc, and then for me to be able to actually tie it back into the people that I work with on a day-to-day basis, different, you know, musicians. We we interviewed and spoke with a lot of people that obviously didn't make it into the documentary. But what we have done is created a huge list of people that we can say are sustainably minded and in an interested, so yeah, it it was a great experience.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and and what kind of events just that out of interest really do you focus more on consumer type style events or uh because the the film kind of covers the whole landscape of events, doesn't it? It's applicable to any event. Is your focus a little more on the consumer side or business?
SPEAKER_02:Or you know, I would say yes. Um, if I look if I tend to sort of map my year out, um, and I try to do and pre-plan and make sure I do a bit of everything. I I am more consumer entertainment um events led. That said, I I do do a number of large conferences and you know, with plenaries, etc. So I I I would say I I I yeah, I do break it up a bit, but certainly consumer. I'm not tending to do marketing or sampling campaigns anymore. You know, that hasn't been for a long time, but um, yes, lots of consumer events, lots of reward shows. Um, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:And and and the what unites any event is the temporary nature of them, right? And it is the pre uh having work and working in events myself, understand the pressure, the pressure to deliver, open the event, and then you've got a tight timescale to then break it down again. And I I guess because they're described as temporary, um, does the what does the film reveal about misleading, about how misleading that idea is, that because it's temporary, oh well, you know, the temptation is, oh, it's not on the it's not on the spreadsheet, or it's there's a you know, like you just said there, it's really about being informed from the beginning, isn't it? And having the whole thing strategically implemented throughout.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely, yes. So to your point, the word events literally means temporary, it's something that goes up and comes down. Um but as we say, the experience that the consumer or the person that that goes to the event or even the production team have is a temporary thing, but what happens afterwards is very much a long-living thing. So yeah, that that's kind of what we're wanting to get across. When you leave and you you exit, and you maybe forget about that event, which although we we hope not, because we want people to remember our events forever. But when they when they leave and sort of move on to something else, we want them to know that there is something very much still happening um from what we've created.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, the waste and the impact is that um it's not temporary. So that's um the narrative of the um of the of the documentary.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, yeah, and and the pre-planning is is really, really important. And I hope that that comes across like from the moment we have our first sit round the table, or our kickoff, as we call it, and we work out who our teams are going to be and how we're going to tackle that event brief, right at the beginning. I really want one of the subject matters to be, and how will we keep this sustainable? And I really want everyone to be thinking, okay, that's a great idea. What supplier would be really good for this? That also is sustainable-minded, and we use sustainable products, etc. And you know, all of that from the very beginning, because as we discover in the documentary, it's not that uh being sustainable is more expensive, it is if you do it as an add-on or as a last minute. But if you're doing it from the beginning, um, it absolutely is not.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, also just to add into that, Chris from iClean, who is our waste management um expert who talked to us on the documentary, it was his point that waste management often is the last thing that people add on to their budget and start thinking about this, not very interesting. But it's very much his point. We must, they must be included at the very beginning because they can come in, they've got the experience, and they can come in and say, listen, to help you manage your waste better and keep it cheaper and more sustainable, talk to us from the beginning because they can advise on ways to get your audience or the people coming to the event engaged in helping the waste removal process to keep it sustainable. For example, like making it more exciting, putting um recycling bins, but making something making them more exciting experience for the consumer to use. I know that sounds strange, but he said, for example, they had they created a giant pizza box posting station. So people were excited to separate once they'd bought their pizza at this event, they could take their pizza box and post it into this post box. It was more of a thing for them. Um and and it just meant that it then separated this cardboard from going in the normal rubbish bins, which would be contaminated, and then they wouldn't be able to be recycled. So it's it's really the planning, the early planning for everyone.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and I guess it's it's just learning, isn't it? Learning about things and and it it's simplifying as well. So I I often find personally sustainability can can become quite technical and quite granular, and you can disappear down holes and never come back, and you know, you lose sight of things. Having the information at the beginning of the design phase is super important, isn't it? Just understand, like the point you made, 35% of event waste graphics printing onto graphics is huge. So if you have a an understanding of how of what supply to use or what printer to use or what partner to work with at the beginning, building that cost in, it may not be more expensive, but that's often the tension that I find. I don't know if you all agree that oh sustainability costs more, or something eco costs more. Is is that the case in in your view and events, and is that tension often what turns people off?
SPEAKER_02:Is that Sarah? Yes, yeah, that as yeah, that's what I was saying, that um there is this misconception that oh, if you come in and you tell me that you want to do your event fully, you know, sustainably and you want to produce this in that way, what's it going to cost? How is it going to affect my bottom line and all of those things? But uh it I and and and I think that if you don't build it in from the beginning, it could have the potential to do that because it's doing anything as an afterthought always costs more. Uh so I from working and meeting all the various suppliers that we have since working on this project, it's unanimous really that the upfront cost of making an event sustainable and thinking about those things possibly is a producer's time or a creative's time where they have to spend that extra time maybe doing a little bit more research into I've come up with this idea about how do I? Because if not everyone has these suppliers in their little black book of suppliers, they don't necessarily yet, although I hope it will change, have a list of these are the ones that are really good and working and using um materials that will be will be easily um broken down and and how how they can then build that in from the beginning maybe takes a little bit more thinking time, but it really shouldn't affect a budget. And I think that's an education piece that we need to get across to clients, to agency leaders, to creative directors, and to producers.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. Just thinking at our experience at Munich, we had graphics produced, and I learned on I didn't know before, but a lot of the the guys, the company inside doing it, I'll be called certified. So it's like brilliant. Um, it's it's that kind of of work. There are organizations and badges to follow that you know will will prove that certain people and suppliers are sustainable, and that that just adds value, and it's a feel-good factor as well, right? I mean, that that's uh you know, like like you say, no nobody consciously wants to damage the environment. But we do partly because we just don't think about it, perhaps at the beginning, and that's part of the problem.
SPEAKER_03:So time pressures, isn't it? It's often with events of one and then the next, it's finished, and then on to the next. And so it's often the time to look into the alternative as opposed to just doing what you've always done, is like, okay, well, we'll just use this one now, and then the next one we'll do better. So it's it's about just taking a step back, having a little think, and you know, a time to pause and actually think, okay, how do we do this better? And then looking for those suppliers.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. That's why we produced these um documentaries for as well, is to encourage basically um, well, the viewers, hopefully more people in our industry to uh to watch it. Um, maybe they can uh create this pause time for them to really reflect and not just um um you know competing on a time and caused a long. Um it was um the the long-lasting effect that um people often don't think about that would be really um well, they should be thinking really. So um that's why the um core point of this documentary to create a course well, encourage people to to um ask more better questions than and reflect and do more, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, one of the kind of powerful points I thought actually was uh you were uh covered at this area of the documentary where you took you you kind of looked at where graphics went after events. I think that was what you were, you know, that part of it. And it was quite even recyclable or graphics were sent to Lanfill, weren't they? Is that right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well, um that's what yeah, we did it, um, we tracked it twice actually, one in Germany, um, in 2023, really, and one in um the States. So despite the uh geographic solo um um location is different, but the end result is the same. They all ended up in the same place. Um and they don't get uh basically just the sheer amount of the quantity of it. Um the recycled materials they put in the recycling bin or the carpets that have been ripped off um after the event clean up. Um and also the banners, they all ended up in the same place and to get um um processed. And in the States, um, most of it basically gets a grid landfills because they do not have the um waste of energy sort of a facility, so they can't even learn it something. They and you know, China no longer takes down the recycles sort of materials anymore. So it just sit there and then, well, okay, granted, they have the land, it's a big country, but it's not how you do it. Because um, you know, when it goes to and goes to landfield, um, things um become residues and the uh Basically, it's um is affecting the ground, the waterway, um, everything really, and people don't think about it. So, and in Germany, again, um in Europe, how it's done is um most of it is actually gone to um waste energy integration and turning to energy, um, electricity and also the heat. So it's um nothing, nothing gets recycled, sadly. I mean um I was concentrating on the banner side of it, but just how we uh tracked, because we didn't just tack the um um banners, we tacked what's been left in the uh recycling area as well. Um everything, everything and landed in the same place. So that was um that was another thing that kind of um made us question. I was like, oh, okay, um, if that's the case, what do we do? That sort of thing. Um and shared it with the girls. Um and then again, there's no snowballs on there.
SPEAKER_03:I will say that was one of the key things that you you were telling me about was the creation of the leachates and the on the dioxins and and not just so much, okay, there's this big mass that we're putting into the land. Yes, that's bad, you know, don't fill the land with rubbish. It wasn't even so much that as what was being created from that. It was, I'd never really thought about it to be honest. I mean, naive, but I hadn't. I hadn't really thought about the actual result of putting things into landfill, the the leaching out of those leechates and coxes. I mean, aside from film and video, I um I'm a naturopath, I'm a nutritional therapist. And all of that really freaked me out, to be honest. You know, thinking about that, that is how we are poisoning the planet with all of the waste that we're we're putting into landfill or incinerating. It's the it's the chemicals. It's the thought for me personally of the the nasties that we're putting into our environment that our children and their children's children are going to be inheriting. And and that is the core of why why we're creating this, if I'm honest. It's it's it's kind of disgusting and painful to think about. So that's why we needed to start talking about this a bit more.
SPEAKER_01:Brilliant. So so you've learned a lot, obviously, in the journey of making the film and creating the film. It's now out there. What do you want, you know, what would you like the film to achieve, really? Um, because it's you you've got a load of um views already. You want to broaden that, you want um any any ideas for the kind of impact you hope it has?
SPEAKER_03:Well, in all honesty, we never started this as right, we want to create clean slate to be uh a company where we're gonna do this and have these big goals. Our main aim was sh spreading, sharing knowledge, and hoping that we can get more eyeballs on this topic and more people in the industry to think and talk and and and maybe come together, collaborate. It was more about just creating it so that we can bring more awareness than a uh you know a goal of right. We'll we've had discussions since of things that we'd like to do that have come about from the documentary and things that we can now action in the future as a result, but the real aim is just to get more people aware and talking and thinking, asking better questions of themselves and their suppliers when they're starting to create events.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Inspiring change, right? And it and I guess it's uh opening minds and challenging preconceived kind of behaviors. And and like you say, it's it's not about judging, but it is about suggesting a new way, a new way of thinking.
SPEAKER_03:Um I think life changes um affect this, you know. Um, I think for for many years I coasted, I just enjoyed life the way you know people do, especially when you're young. You just get on with it, you just have fun, you create, you don't really think too much about the future. Um, I think that's an age thing as well, you know. I turned turned 40, had a child, experienced grief and loss, made me personally start to question my what I'm going to leave behind and my effect on the world. And um yeah, I think the aim really is just to be more responsible personally and hope that well, I understand how difficult it is to take time to look at this this subject if you have time pressures, but now, yeah, it sometimes time is you're forced to slow down, and now's the time for us to bring it out. Yeah, don't know if that makes too much sense. It does in my head.
SPEAKER_01:No, it does. It does, it does make a lot of sense, and and the fact that the film is inspiring, so you've achieved that, and if the more it people it reaches, and the more people that uh change, even adapt slightly the way they think will make a huge difference overall, I'm sure. And you know, we'll we'll be you know, obviously including this podcast and uh some articles and stuff, it is applicable generally to anybody. That's the great thing about it. Everybody goes to an event, don't they? Not everybody organizes the events to the extent that you guys have been involved in or we do, whatever, but everybody goes to events at some point in their lives. If we could all just make a you know, the atomic habits principle, one percent difference across a number of dials, that compounds into huge change. And films like this do inspire change and will inspire change, I'm sure. And you'll probably have people giving you feedback years to come, hopefully, that that made a difference to them. Um so I guess then the the question is, has it has it the experience of making the film made you far more sustainable yourselves in the way you behave and what you do? I mean, obviously, Nova, you you've been working in this field for a while, so I guess that's reinforced your thinking.
SPEAKER_00:It definitely has changed for me. Um, not um, well, it's uh gradual again, um, through um through the practice of um of um doing what I do as the marketeer for for Cablan. But this um um through making this film and then knowing the insiders, I mean, um Sarah um especially uh shared a lot of insight of and as a producer of the events from her point of view and um and also the the numbers of um the contributors that we invited to the film. Um I mean, working with them, we do know um there's a lot of um good intentions um around in the industry, but um again, no one has um um really talked about it or but they are they have been doing it, like Jack Morton, um uh Julian the Buzz has been um flagged in um sustainability into the very early stage as a as a designer, um he's been practicing for years, and nobody has been talking about it. And I just wanted to show um, I mean, part of the the documentary that we created together is to show that the good intention and people do care, um, we um collectively we can make a change. And also, um, if I were to say one biggest thing that kind of um attentionally would be I'm definitely more intentional um and well more comfortable to say no, really. Now I don't feel guilty to to to buy certain things I don't need, um, even if it looks nice. Um I'm more um I'll say um um I'm I'm I'm very big in uh reduction. So um I'm I kind of um now it's it's a habit now. I tend to rethink, um, is it necessary to make this journey um business trip-wise, or can I do do it um remotely through you know uh course like this um to do it, I mean, and it's just equally effective. And also um I think clear boundary around materials and timelines as well, it's it's I think it's it's the key. Uh it's the key really. And then um I think choosing work um and working with the uh case studies um in my side to align with our values and it's not just the scale and stuff. So that that that all matters. So it's all tiny little changes. But yeah, I'm kind of happy that I'm I'm kind of um more comfortable to say no to the projects that I that doesn't feel aligned with my matters. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, interesting.
SPEAKER_02:Sarah, what about yourself? Well, for me, I think it's really important to remind people the order of the three R's reduce, reuse, recycle, as opposed to often people will say, um, oh well, I I looked at this packaging and it is recyclable. So therefore I've done my bit. But actually, like for if we're using those three in that order to talk when when it when it comes to working within an agency or with a client, etc., about the events, like what can we reduce here? Like, how how do we work with that? What can we reuse? Because often there's a thought process around, oh, we want to do something that's never been done before, or creatively, we want something that's never been done. So therefore, we're going to create uh X amount of chairs as opposed to looking at sourcing some chairs that are already in existence, again, maybe taking a little more time, but you know, uh, and just reminding them that. And then obviously recycle is still vitally important, but just reminding people um about that. I'm really keen that multiple students and people that are going through the early stages of their of learning to be event producers and work in the industry have something that they can watch that is easy to connect with and will hopefully stay with them so that as they go into the profession, um, they will have that in their mind. Um, that's that's really important to me. And also now I have gained additional confidence to be able to go into any new role and say, this is where I stand. The events that I produce are still going to be as creative and innovative. It's just I really am passionate about this not being an afterthought. And and I hope every new team that I work with, I can bring them to this and say, I want you, you know, to be on board with this too. And uh yes, this documentary has certainly given me that that um that confidence.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, that confidence based on knowledge and and like you say, forethought and and um those three R's are really important, aren't they? Reduce. Yeah. Because the recycle, the recycle thing on, you know, obviously in print and packaging and so on, it does give people that comfort, but you know that that that's not the only answer, is it? Like you say, reduce in the first instance. Any sort of final thoughts you might want to just leave people with? We'll we'll include a link to the film in the show notes, and we'll be creating an article and we'll be pushing out some more information on Clean Slate through future print channels. But any other sort of final thoughts you might want to leave people with?
SPEAKER_00:Um I can um start with, it would be basically um, it's only beginning. The this documentary is open up the system, and then um the system it it's not about pointing fingers, but I mean uh sharing that how the system works. It is um I'm hoping that it's gonna empower us. And um, we have this uh platform on LinkedIn and also on our social Instagrams and um and and Facebook. If people um however they wanted to um get more involved or talk about it or um have any questions, um please. Um I think the as I said, the documentary is only a beginning, and we would love to hear from you and see what your experience um say. And if any questions, I think more talks, it means more people um care about it, and then then we do have a chance to have them, you know. So title is the cling slate. Yes.
SPEAKER_01:Fantastic. Well, listen, thanks to the three of you for joining, three different countries. Amazing film, great work, really inspired by it. Really happy you were able to join the podcast and um yeah, looking forward to seeing how it develops um and reaches as many people as possible and inspires change, I'm sure. So thank you very much.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you. Thank you for having us, Marcus.
unknown:Thank you.
