#326 - Ink Is The Hidden Engine. A conversation with Stefano Rogora, INX

In this episode of the FuturePrint Podcast, Marcus Timson speaks with Stefano Rogora, Marketing Manager EMEA at INX Europe, about the evolving role of ink in a rapidly changing print and packaging landscape.

Stefano outlines three major shifts reshaping the industry: the structural move towards packaging, the growing impact of regulation - particularly in Europe - and the increasing complexity of applications. Together, these forces are driving a transition from a product-led market to a solution-led one, where technical expertise and application knowledge are more important than ever.

The conversation explores why ink is far more complex than many assume, particularly in packaging applications where performance depends on substrate, process conditions, and even the contents of the pack itself. Stefano also introduces INX’s three-stage framework - upstream, operational, and downstream - to explain how the company approaches the full lifecycle of packaging, from raw materials through to recycling.

Key themes include the role of regulation as a driver of innovation, the shift towards monomaterials and paper-based packaging, and the convergence of flexo, gravure, and digital technologies. The discussion also highlights the importance of global scale combined with local expertise, and why people and application knowledge remain critical differentiators.

Looking ahead, Stefano makes it clear: sustainability is no longer just a trend - it is the central force shaping the future of packaging and print.

A practical, insightful discussion for anyone navigating the increasing complexity of modern print production.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to the Future Print Podcast, celebrating print technology and the people behind it.

SPEAKER_02 0:11

Welcome to the latest episode of the Future Print Podcast. I'm about to introduce somebody I've known for many years and was around at the time for our imprint show back in the day. And Stefano Ragora from Inks is a first-time guest on our podcast. But so welcome to the Future Print Podcast, Stefano.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

Hi, Marcus, and thank you so much for giving me this opportunity. And I can, you know, I would like to introduce myself. I'm Stefano Ragora and I'm marketing manager, EMEA for Inks. Um I I've been working in the printing industry for over 20 years. And you know, the funny thing is all of them within Inks, INX. I actually started at the very beginning of the operational chain. I started working on logistics, in logistic and rouse activities. And you know, this gave me uh a very practical understanding of how the business really works, you know, from materials to production dynamics. So then over time I moved to commercial and more strategic positions, and today I'm responsible for marketing across EMEA.

Three Shifts Reshaping Print

SPEAKER_02 1:33

Excellent. And um, I know you've got like in that 20 years, you're still a young man, so you you've got a lot of experience and you've still got the dynamism and energy, which is uh not always the way, but so so that's that's fantastic. You've seen the industry change a lot, I know, in that time. Um from your position, really, and perspective, um, what are the most important changes perhaps you're currently seeing across the market?

SPEAKER_00 2:00

Yeah, so first of all, thank you for tell tell tell me that I'm still young. So um, so the I believe I and I think there are three major shifts happening at the same time, and together they are really reshaping our industry. And you know, the first one is is the structural shift towards packaging. So in this uh area, print is no longer about graphics or communication only. You know, it it's increasingly about functionality, protection, and compliance. So, I mean, packaging is becoming more complex and in plays a much more critical role than people sometimes and often realize. Um the second very and very important uh change is about the regulation. Especially in Europe, regulations are not just a constraint, they are actually driving uh innovation. That is a good thing, but you know, at the same time, uh we face everyday topics like uh food safety, migration limits, recyclability, and sustainability. You know, these topics are forcing the entire value change to rethink materials, processes, and of course, technologies. Um and the last one is the increasing of complexity of the applications. So, I mean, customers are no longer by uh an ink. They are dealing with a combination of substrate printing technology because even printing technologies are evolving and changing, different curing system, uh multiple end user requirements, uh, and sustainability target, which is you know becoming every day, every year uh more uh complex. So I believe that you know everything is interconnected. So what what we are really seeing is a shift from a product-driven market to a solution-driven market. Sorry, solution-driven one. You know, it's in this context, technical expertise and education knowledge are becoming much more important than than ever.

SPEAKER_02 4:39

Yeah, and that's that's a a critical factor that places pressure, I think, on ink manufacturers, because I do still think when new technology is developed that ink isn't always first front of mind, but it does need to be for all the reasons that you've laid out there, all the the the regulations, the challenges with different materials doing different things, the fact that the packaging itself has to be in some for food particularly safe. Uh, all of these factors need to be placed in the kind of minds, I think, of OEMs and that when they're really at the beginning of their innovation journey. And I think that that's really important as well, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 5:24

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

What One-Stop Shop Means

SPEAKER_02 5:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's really critical. Um I know we talked before, and so IN INX or Inks, but um you know, very much uh a large organization with uh depth and global reach and so on. I think you've used the word one-stop shop in a way, but what does that really mean? Yeah, yeah, exactly. And how do you define it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:47

Yeah, thanks, thanks for asking because uh it's I think the idea of uh one-stop shop is much easier to understand if we take it outside from our industry for a second. Just think about to be in a different market, uh in a more consumer experience, like going to you know, a kitchen store. A traditional one-stop shop will be a place where you can buy everything like pants, knives, plate, appliances. Uh, you know, today the real value is not just having all those products available. So the real value is when someone in that kind of store that someone can understand what you actually want to cook, or how often you cook, or how much space you have in your kitchen. And then help you to choose the right combination of tools that work together. And if you want to take it that you know, to take that idea one step further, the perfect one-stop shop will not only offer the tools, it also gives you the ingredients and even the receipts, because that is when the cycle is really complete. And this is what uh, you know, this scenario is very similar to what's happening in the packaging today or in different applications, not only packaging. Customers are not simply choosing uh uh an ink, they are trying to make an entire system work. And again, it's a combination between substream printing processes and performance, compliance, sustainability, uh, and the final result on the shelf. So for us, uh being a one-stop shop uh means much more than offering a very broad portfolio. Uh, you know, it means being able to support customers across the full journey with products, technical expertise, application knowledge, and a real understanding of the hand use. So this is uh the means behind uh one-stop shop for us.

SPEAKER_02 8:12

Yeah, yeah, and it's um it's about having the portfolio of products, but critical is the expertise and reassuringly the people because the people in your team are the ones that solve the problems and understand the needs of the customer, the application, the the the direction the business may be taking. It's not just a commodity purchase, is it? It's a strategic one. It's really critical and it's it it needs to be said and understood by the customer as much as anything else. So that's really important, isn't it? Um I guess the next kind of question really around sort of application. Why uh what why is deep application knowledge and technical support so critical when customers often don't fully know what they need? They think they can just buy something and it will work, but you know, I mean, why why is this deep application knowledge and technical support so critical?

SPEAKER_00 9:12

Yeah, because very often customers know the result they want. So they know the target, they know where they want to arrive, but not necessarily the best way to get there. So they know they know where they want to go, but they don't know the route. So this is true in many different applications, including packaging or visual communication as well, uh, industrial printing. Uh you know, in but if we want to talk about packaging, uh which is clearly a major major focus for us, but it also applies to many other print applications, process, condition, regulation, you know. Uh the performance on in this market depends on combination of material, process condition, regulation, and the end user uh requirement. So our role is not only to provide a product, but is to understand the application first, identify the real need behind the request, and help build the right solution. So you say before, you know, the difference uh between providing a solution or a commodity product. So you s I can tell you in some cases, one product could, you know, could become a commodity, uh, but the step before, especially in the development phase, in that case, you know, this is where the application knowledge uh makes the difference. Because before products become a you know become a commodity, before of that, there is a uh you know a development and innovation phase that requires a very deep knowledge uh about the application.

Why Packaging Ink Is Complex

SPEAKER_02 11:05

Yeah, and that's um reassuring for customers, but equally it's it's it's an important factor, isn't it? That um not only is the material and the you know, I for a global business, different conditions in different parts of the world are require different solutions. So it's it's not necessarily a one size fits everybody approach, is it? And obviously the complexity of ink in packaging applications is is is significant. Why is developing ink for packaging significantly more complex than many people realize?

SPEAKER_00 11:43

I think many people maybe still see ink as just one component of the printing process, but in reality it plays uh a role across many different requirements. Uh if we want to talk about packaging, uh the ink has to do much more than simply delivering color or image quality, and it has to perform on a specific substrate, work with a certain printing technology, and integrate with production speed, different curie system, and comply with strict regulatory and safety requirement. But you know, if we want to talk about packaging, and this is happening especially in the packaging market, one very important variable is the content of the packaging itself. So people often talk about food packaging in a very general way, as if it were one single category, but in the reality the requirements can change significantly depending on the type of food inside. You know, there are dry food or you know liquids, and that also affects the type of processes the packaging has to withstand before it even reaches the consumer. So just think about uh you know the pasteurization process, uh, sterilization, freezing, filling conditions, shelf life expectation as well, and transport conditions. So these are very uh aspects that you have to consider when you decide to apply ink on this kind of package. And uh ink is not just designed for a pack, is it is designed for a pack that contains something specific that goes through a specific projects process and that must perform reliably uh all the way to the final use. So this is why maybe packaging ink is much more complex than it may appear from the outside.

SPEAKER_02 14:02

Yeah, that's really interesting and useful if you really step back and take a proper think about it. You realize the the challenges are quite significant for the ink, for the ink chemistry, for the um the way the ink works within the machine, and then what it does on the material. I can see it's uh it's complex, complicated, and requires a lot of experience and expertise. And that's sort of before you even think about, I guess, the full life cycle of a packaging application. How's that work? So from production perhaps through to disposal and recycling, how do you approach then the full life cycle of a packaging application?

SPEAKER_00 14:45

Yeah, very yeah, interesting, interesting question. Thanks. Um so this is uh, you know, we look at the packaging application through a three-level approach. You know, we have a and we use this, you know, we use this three-level approach uh in a different different situation. Uh, but actually we look the upstream oper upstream phase operation and downstream. So to give you a very uh easy explanation about this, so upstreams include everything connected to the raw material, so packaging structure as well, substrate, and all those elements that influence the application before printing even starts. Then operation, of course, include our own production, uh, but as well the printing process itself, which is happening at the converter site, uh and the conversion phase as well. So, you know, this this means is about printability, curing, adhesion, production, efficiency, uh the product safety during the conversion as well. So many times we think about uh the safety, you know, we link the safety only to the end user. But you know, uh as an ink manufacturer, uh one of the first uh you know commitment is to provide safety to the converter, converter itself, to the operator. And if we believe, if we think about the UV curable products, energy curable, uh, the conversion phase is one of is one of the most critical because operator is managing uh an ink which is not cured uh yet, is not polymerized. And and in that case, the the the ink itself is the is in the in the phase where maybe it's more dangerous. So uh the last phase we consider, of course, is this downstream. And this phase include the consumer use phase and the hand of life stage as well. So it is about how the packaging performs in the end of the final user. And then what happens once the you know, once it primary function is completed, including disposal, recycling, and overall compatibility with the next life of the material. So, and here we can consider a very interesting scenario about circularity of the packaging. So uh for us, developing an ink is never only about what happened on the press. It it is about uh understanding uh the full framework around the packaging application, actually, from where it starts to how it is produced, distributed, used, and finally managed at the end of its life.

Why Packaging Stays Resilient

SPEAKER_02 17:53

Yeah, yeah, brilliant. And so obviously, packaging is a core market. I mean, that's an obvious statement to make. Whatever's got seems to be going on in the world, packaging still retains its relevance and we continue to buy and so on. Um, why is packaging become the core focus for uh INX and what makes it such a resilient and growing market?

SPEAKER_00 18:18

Yeah, um I believe it's a combination of multiple multiple factors of packaging. You you you know, packaging has be become a core focus for uh for rings. Uh for sure, for all the reasons we discussed so far, uh, we have had the opportunity and the consistency to study this market more deeply than many other applications. So, yes, you know, there are strategic reasons behind this focus, of course, but I really believe there there is also something more organic behind it. It's you know, it is very much connected to the knowledge base built over time by thousands of people who have worked and still work across the group. Uh in a way, you know, Marcus, is it is a part of our cultural roots. Uh INX is deeply connected to the packaging world, even because very simply, many people inside a company have spent years, even decades, studying it, testing it, exploring it, making mistakes, learning. You know, making mistakes maybe is the more important phase because after the mistake we learn, we improve, and we success. You know, uh, if we look aside from this specific question, Marco, so sometimes in in my life, honestly, I say, maybe I want to change, I want to change the market because you know I'm working in this market for many years. But at the end of my consideration, I say, look, Stefano, you know, I learned many things about print in general. So in this market, I can provide added value. If I change tomorrow and I'm going to start in a new market, maybe I have to learn from you know from the scratch again. I'm uh you said I'm young, but I'm in the reality I'm 45. So why? Why? The reason why is is very connected to this, you know, to your to your question. So packaging uh is such is such a natural space for us. And uh is not only a strategic direction, is also is also the result of an evolution that our people have built over the last 40 years, even more.

SPEAKER_02 20:57

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can see that very much a um a build-up of many, many years of expertise and development and commitment, I think, and uh and and energy, because it's uh a fast-moving industry, isn't it? And it's a fast-changing industry, and that um requires a supply chain that has that expertise and depth and breadth of of knowledge. I can see that. You mentioned technology earlier, and um obviously as a as a uh a large manufacturer of ink um for printing, you produce printing inks for Flexo, Rotok of View, and Digital as well. How do these three different texts coexist and evolve within packaging? Um I I'm in curious as to know how how that works for you and also how you see that developing, perhaps.

Regulation As An Innovation Driver

SPEAKER_00 21:50

Yeah, so different, you know, different printing technologies today are not really competing in uh in a traditional way. uh I believe we believe they are more and more complimentary. You say right. So actually we I think when when we when we say one stop shop if we want to consider the product portfolio only we have I think that we are able to cover mostly the entire technology scenario and each technology has its own advantages and strength and in packaging those advantages are applied depending on specific application volume substrate and performance requirement so to give you an example flexo if we think about if we talk about flexo graphic so this is an extreme extremely versatile and very widely used across many packaging segments especially where efficiency and flexibility are the key. As well Rotograph viewer uh is still very of course is decreasing uh if we compare 20 30 40 years ago but it's still very strong in a high volume application where consistency quality and long runs are very critical and you know digital inkjet for instance on the other end on on on the very other end is growing because uh it brings a different kind of value it's not only about variable data or uh I think it enables shorter runs of course faster time to market customization and in some cases a more efficient efficient way to manage complexity uh so what we're really seeing is not all is not a replacement of one technology by another but an evolution where they coexist and cover different needs and at the same time this is curious because uh at the same time there is also a a kind of convergency happening so I mean technologies are learning learning from each other for it to explain you know for to explain you this digital is pushing toward higher productivity and lower cost while conventional technologies are becoming more flexible and more responsive so for us but even you know even the converter the same I remember when I started to work in the labeling industry uh maybe 20 years ago so nobody in the factory they you know maybe nobody but you know very few of them were were were equipped with a pre-press process in-house so I remember you know in the early 2000 label shops were relying on external company producing polymers and you know and the plate today they evolve and they have uh pre-press in in-house so today for you know make ready to be ready for production using flexo press especially the new the new press they produce by themselves polymer and the make ready time and the setup time for the uh you know the the new conventional flexo machine is not so long as before so this is a type of sh you know advantages sharing I don't know how how do you say but it it's like the technologies are learning uh from from each other yeah yeah and it's it's about that understanding of when to bring into play a certain a certain type of technology for a certain role that provides that cost saving or that agility or you know and that and that's about really understanding from the operator's point of view how to how to deploy the best fit for each thing which um from what you're saying is people are learning bus you know converters have learned and um good to also hear that digital is playing a big role in helping that happen you mentioned earlier also about regulation um I was curious actually how do regional regulatory differences shape ink development and application strategies regulation plays a fundamental role in shaping how we develop and apply inks especially when you look at it from a global perspective so the complexity around regulation is that different regions have different regulatory frameworks different levels of strictness and sometimes completely different approach to the same topics Europe maybe is probably the most advanced in demanding in terms of regulation particularly around food safety migration limits and sustainability other regions may have less stringent requirements or they may follow different standards. So when we develop an ink we cannot think in absolute terms uh you always have to consider where that products will be used and in many cases the same application may require different solutions depending on the region this of course has a direct impact on formulation raw material selection testing protocols and even how the products are positioned in the market uh same time regulation I I want to say that regulation is not only a constraint very often uh you know regular you know regulation uh he act acts as a driver of innovation you know some of the most advanced solutions we have today we you know were developed exactly to meet or anticipate regulatory requirements especially in areas like low migration food compliance compliance and sustainability so I believe regulation shape uh not only what we can do but also how we innovate and how we support our customers across different markets.

SPEAKER_02 29:12

Yeah and that's that's key isn't it because I think Europe really is leading the way in terms of um implementing regulation that uh broadly is a positive thing and sometimes can be restricting but actually it's nice to hear that it's driving innovation so it's creating problems and challenges that need to be met and um could you maybe share some examples of how regulation has directly driven innovation within INX yeah provide some examples.

SPEAKER_00 29:45

Very clear clear example is everything related to you know low migration and food packaging of course a regulatory framework especially in Europe but also guidelines from brand owner and uh industry association as well have pushed the entire industry to rethink how inks are formulated and used. This has led to the development of specific law migration system where raw material selection, formulation design and also application guidelines are all aligned to minimize the risk of migration. Another area is the sustainability so regulation and upcoming legislation have moved fast innovation around recyclability and the compatibility of things with the new packaging structure such as monomerial solutions. So in some cases this means completely redesigning existing products to make sure they do not interference with the recycling streams or that they support material recovery process. And you know this is not only about compliance very often these regulatory pressure anticipate broader market expectations so what starts as a regulatory requirement often becomes a standard that customers expect as a part of high quality future proof solution. So for us this has meant investing in RD of course developing new products platform and building expertise that allows us not only to comply with regulation but also to stay ahead of them.

SPEAKER_02 31:44

Yeah yeah and that and and that's where regulation perhaps has a positive role to play too with sustainability isn't it because you know um it's difficult to argue that it's uh it's not a good thing to to create more sustainable products to to help the consumer make more sustainable choices but it's often a buzzword isn't it sustainability and the reality sometimes is different how do you define sustainability across the value chain and how do you avoid greenwashing?

SPEAKER_00 32:19

Good question again thanks so yeah sustainability for us is defined across uh the full value chain and we approach it using the same three level framework we discussed before you remember we talk about upstream operation and downstream and again as I said before uh we hacked as a sustainable company in the upstream phase when is about to select raw material sourcing and formulation choice we hacked as a sustainable company during operation phase including our own operation and of course we have to consider also the converter operation side like printing and the full conversion process and we hacked as a sustainable company because we uh think also at the downs at the downstream phase which is cover the use phase and the end of life so how the products behave once it reached the consumer the buy the buyer and what happened happened after the disposal so looking at sustainability through these three levels helps us avoid the very common mistake which is focusing on one single aspect and calling it as the solution so we are there is also a very important concept where uh which is about double materiality uh it's very important for us so from regulatory perspective especially in Europe companies in scope are increasingly increasingly required to report sustainability in a structure and transparent way so this is what we do so a company like like us is forced in the is asked to report the sustainability uh action and not only in terms of how external ESG factor affects the business but also how the business affects the environment and society across the value change you know it means that in the reality when we talk about sustainability we have to say we have to we are happy to say that sustainability for us has to be assessed documented measure measured and reported in a way that is much more rigorous than in the past and I think that this is uh also one of the reasons why I believe credibility matters so much in this context. And we like to show this we have a real fact so we are applying for Ecovadi's uh uh how do you say Ecovadi framework and just uh uh a couple of weeks weeks ago we achieved the platinum uh level in our in one of our facility based in Spain for instance and this uh position ourselves as a a top one percent of assessed companies so in the end the sustainability is not a single feature or a slogan for us it's a system level approach that requires consistency uh technical understanding of course uh but you know the important things for me it's it's better to say measurable measurable action and continuous improvement across the entire value chain so I think it's you know I I don't find any better way to explain how we approach uh sustainability honestly but uh uh what uh really defines Inks uh as a sustainable uh company is the approach we have day by day department by department employee by employee we have very uh constant health for to improve every single aspect of what we do so you know to close I I think that I can talk for an hour about about it um yeah big issue sustainability is a big issue isn't it but from what I from what I can hear from you it's you're not just developing products that have happened to be environmental it's systemic it's part of your way of working and the eco this platinum is I know extremely challenging to achieve you're in the top one percent that's phenomenal um and like you say it it the sustainability is part of your DNA it's part of how you operate it's part of the products that you make and the people yeah and so that's you know pretty clear. Sorry Marcus you know the con the very important concept is to understand that you know sustainability is not just having one better product you know but it's about building a better system.

Recyclability And Monomaterial Direction

SPEAKER_02 38:07

Yeah that's clear yeah absolutely so yeah and with that ICO that is platinum it recognizes the whole picture doesn't it it's it's about the structure and the the way the business works not just the products as well well um following on with that really what are the most important innovations perhaps that you may be seeing around recyclability things like monomaterials and material reduction yeah I think the most important innovation today are happening where performance and sustainability are no longer treated as a separate topics.

Global Consistency With Local Expertise

SPEAKER_00 38:42

So recyclability monomaterials and material reduction are all pushing the industry to rethink packaging in a much more integrated way to give an example uh to move toward monomaterial structure is a very important one because it can make recycling more effective but at the same time it creates a new technical challenges in terms of barrier properties printability addition and overall uh package performance so in this area we already have for instance uh uh an NCEF solvent based solution available for both flexor and rotography that allows direct surface printing without the the need of for lamination and this kind of solution support the use of monomaterial structure and can make recyclability easier to achieve and when we talk about material reduction one of the most interesting directions is the papyrization uh what we are seeing is a growing effort to replace many cases plastic film in different types of package including folding carton with you know alternative solutions based on on paper structures uh in this context barrier coating becomes very important because they are designed to give paper the functional properties it needs while reducing the dependent you know the dependency of plastic on plastic layers so again uh the real innovation is not only in one product is not just in one product it is in the ability to redesign the full packaging system in a way that balances performance functionality and sustainable sustainability much better than before again so in as you can see Marcos and every top topic we we touch it's very important to to highlight the intern interconnection between different you know different uh aspects yeah yeah absolutely yeah so it's not just in the one product is it it's the entirety of it and how it interplays with the lots of different aspects of it it's really important isn't it um INX is a global business I know it's one of the the big um uh businesses within the ink chemistry world for printing in particular and packaging um obviously the world is very different in different areas and so on why is delivering truly global ink solutions so challenging and how does ink approach this yeah uh delivering uh you know truly global ink solution uh is challenging because uh you know the word global sounds simple it's you know today in the last 20 years everything evolved we changed uh you know the distances between countries reduced uh it's easy to take a flight I remember you know during the 90s uh people was traveling to Japan was only the rich people was able to to buy a ticket so you know today in very different aspects uh you know the distances are very uh smaller but in the reality when we talk about markets you know in in the reality different markets are very different you know between each other and different regions have different regulations different printing technologies uh different substrate different converting uh practice and also different customer expectations so before we talk about uh flexo and rotographie if we want to consider uh a real scenario about flexible packaging I can tell you without giving you a number because if I don't know the right right number but in the flexible packaging converting phase in the US country flexo is the most used uh technology uh in Japan Rotograph view is still the most used but maybe Europe is a mix between the two so as you can see we are touching only one market one application and I can localize uh very important difference in technologies so the idea of having one single solution that works in exactly the same way everywhere is in many cases not realistic. But what really matters is having a global vision that we have combined with a strong local understanding. And this is where INX has a real I think advantage uh you know being part of Sakata Inscription Give us a truly global platform with a very strong RD capabilities, long-term stability, and the ability to support multinational customers consistently across the region. But you know, being global does not only mean having an international footprint, it also means having the ability to share the knowledge. This is very, Marcus, believe me, this is very one of the most most critical uh aspects. The you know sharing knowledge uh through different plans and technologies, and you know, having a strategic direction across the group while still adapting solutions to any uh regional uh realities. Um actually our approach is to combine global scale with local expertise. Um in the end, you know, a truly global solution is not about forcing standardization everywhere, it's about building uh the route the right balance between consistency and uh adaptability.

SPEAKER_02 45:20

Yeah, and I and I guess you know what role might local expertise and infrastructure play in supporting global customers effectively, I suppose it connects to what you've already said. It's it's that global perspective, but with local focuses as well. It's kind of um the best of perhaps both worlds, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 45:44

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, uh local expertise and infrastructure are exactly what hello global approach uh to work in the real uh application.

SPEAKER_02 45:55

So yeah, it's really important to have that flexibility there and that local cultural focus, isn't it? Because as you've said, climate conditions are different everywhere. The weather, the the the habits, the the law, the the you know, there's lots of things. Um obviously you mentioned people earlier, people, service, and expertise perhaps um do create differentiation, don't they? And I guess in a market where products can be similar, what role do people and service play in your differentiation?

SPEAKER_00 46:32

Yeah, uh, you know, we define no, we define ourselves as a one-stop shop, so we talked we talked earlier, and I believe that is true, in the sense that we can theorically serve many markets and a very wide range of applications. We have maybe probably one of the broadest product portfolio in the industry, but you know that the reality is that the sales performance is never identical everywhere, you know. And why is that? Uh of course, part of the answer is the regulation. So we talked before, I don't want to repeat myself, but you know, part of it is also the different level of development of some technologies across different regions. As I, you know, uh I said before, I give you an example about flexographic, flexible packaging, sorry. And of course, we if we consider our gravier sales in North America maybe are lower than what we sell in Japan because it's about uh the different technology across different regions. But beyond that, the real difference is still made by people. Our I I believe uh I believe that to give an example, our best-selling products are generally available in almost every part of the world. But there are still many niche products and specific solutions with strong growth potential that are not yet equally developed in every region. And most of the time, the reason is not the product itself. Most of the time, the reason is that we don't yet have the same level of experience, application knowledge, and market confidence everywhere. And so even in the company with a very broad portfolio of people, I believe remain the real factor, that factor that you know that turns availability into success. And and this is true across almost every stage of the process. You know, think about we have salespeople in uh you know everywhere, everywhere, everywhere, mostly everywhere in the in the world. And maybe I'll give you a you know, to give you another example, we produce screen and paired inks in Germany. And in Germany, we have people that understand very well the application challenging that you know, they know the application, they know everywhere around the technologies. Theoretically we can sell screen and pad in Malaysia, you know what I mean, Marcus. But if we are not able to provide the uh the right support around the products, we will not sell any drop of inks. And this is the big difference and the you know the big value provided by people. So and again, this people is making different you know, provide added value in again if we consider the tree level of our framework, of course, in in the upstream phase, because it's people that is understanding materials and application requirements, and it's true also in operation and in downstream as well. So at the end, products matter, of course. We need to do good products that works, that's no doubt. Technology matters, but people are still what make the difference between having a solution and actually making that solution work in the specific local market.

Converters Brands OEM Collaboration

SPEAKER_02 50:38

Yeah, and that's again nice to hear. People make the difference at the end of the day, don't they? And that's that's that's critical to that. Um Stefano, uh could you explain a bit about what the primary customer groups you're focused on today and perhaps how this varies across different applications?

SPEAKER_00 51:01

Yeah, our you know, actually actually our customer base today is uh quite diverse, and it really depends on the application. Uh traditionally, I could say converters are our primary customers uh because they are the ones running the printing processes and working directly with our inks in production. Uh, many of the converters we serve are uh also have a global footprint, sometimes as large as ours, or even larger. And this is exactly one of the reasons why companies like that need to rely on a player like us, or at least on a company with similar capabilities. Um because when a customer operates across multiple regions, they need consistency, technical support, and application knowledge again that can also work across multiple regions. And as you know, there are not so many companies in the world with this or you know with that kind of capability. Uh, in some cases, we have also direct relationship with brand owner, not so many, um, and without a real global capacity, we will have a very limited ability to bring many full value to them. You know, because their expectations are often international by nature, even when the application is pretty pretty local. At the same time, even if we do a significant amount of direct business, distributors are you know also remain a very important part of our route to market. This is strictly depending by ink technology we are talking about, and in many regions they play a very key role, uh not only commercially, but also helping, you know, but also in helping us to stay close to local customer and especially market dynamics. Um when we moved maybe to Inkjet, of course, OEM partnerships are also very important, not only in Inkjet, because we have OEM relationship also in the conventional uh business. Uh and that's because uh technology and ink are becoming more and more interconnected. So, this is especially true in a more uh complex or evolving area like inkjet printing, where ink and machine performance are deeply linked. So, you know, most of the time slightly is changing depending by the by the OEM, but you know, OEM sell the equipment and then sell the ink as a proprietary ink. So in reality, you know, we are part of a broader ecosystem rather than a simple supplier-customer relationship, and that is why collaboration may matter so much. So, whatever is this converter and distributor, OEM, brand owner, or other partner across the value chain, the real value comes from being uh able to connect all these players and contribute with the right expertise in the right place.

SPEAKER_02 54:37

Yeah, yeah. And obviously, you you you you mentioned there, which is interesting, um OEM partnerships. How important is the sort of OEM partnership and collaboration in your overall strategy?

SPEAKER_00 54:52

Uh, it's really important. So OEM partnership and collaboration are extremely important in our uh overall strategy for many reasons, Marcus. So working directly with technology manufacturer is always a very stimulating process for us. You know, sometimes people can think that working with OEM is easier. Actually, it's not like that. You know, it's independently from the printing technology, uh, having the opportunity to innovate together, and this is the critical point innovate together, allow us to continuously improve our products. You know, sometimes it's not easy because uh sometimes the requests coming from OEM are very challenging. And uh, you know, yeah, at the same time, facing these different technical challenges, it helps us grow as a company. Sometimes we can, sometimes we cannot. But you know, from my experience, uh I've seen this uh very clearly. So over the year, I've learned how important it is to work directly with the technology manufacturers and how different that relationship can be depending on the application. Uh and if we talk about injust specifically, we also have to consider the critical role of the printed manufacturer as well. So we didn't mention them before because actually printed manufacturer is not selling our product, but having a long uh-term relation with them is very, very making the difference. And we have long-standing relationships with several of them, and these collaborations are the key of making the a real difference, especially today, where printed technology has evolved very quickly. Uh expect like waveform optimization and system integration are becoming fundamental to achieving the right performance. So at the end, OEM partnerships are not just about compatibility, uh, and they are about cool development. So this is something we like more, we like best. Shared technology and the ability to push uh the boundary of what is technically possible. So in bracket, this is how can explain our you know uh relationship with OEM and print that's manufacture.

Misconceptions And The Next Five Years

SPEAKER_02 57:22

Yeah, and what I'm hearing clearly is a big need and a big um acceptance and or embracing, even of the fact that collaboration is so important, um, it's so critical, um, which makes a lot of sense. And uh, I guess key for me, one of the takeaways is that how how much the industry needs to understand more about ink. On that note, what are the biggest kind of misconceptions about ink and its role in the printing ecosystem? Are there some misconceptions in your view?

SPEAKER_00 57:57

Well, I could say, as uh we have maybe said before, you know, one of one of the biggest misconceptions about ink is that it is often seen as a simple component, something that mainly provides color or visual uh appearance. New reality ink plays a much more critical role. Uh it is part of the complex system and uh it is uh it has a direct impact on performance, production efficiency, compliance, again, and increasingly in the increasingly uh you know a very uh big focus on sustainability and uh end-of-life behavior. So reducing ink to just a visual element is a big oversimplification, you know. And maybe that you know, thinking better, another common misconception is that ink can be developed or select uh in isolation. So this is one of the biggest mistakes. Uh as we discuss, it is always part of a broader ecosystem, and its performance depends on how well it is integrated with substrate technology and application condition.

SPEAKER_02 59:19

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:22

Yeah, no, absolutely. And um and I think that um pivotal role it plays, but also the technical attributes and requirements are really significant when you really drill down into it, and um that kind of knowledge that they get people get working with you, but also that they can equip themselves with will be um hugely beneficial. When you're sort of looking ahead, really sort of wrapping up and looking ahead into the future, what should the industry be paying perhaps closer attention to over the next three to five years?

SPEAKER_00 59:59

Wow, that's it's not an easy question. So considering, you know, uh for sure, you know, should be uh necessary a podcast uh maybe fully dedicated to this question because you know having a broader portfolio is not easy uh to pick uh maybe the right uh or you know the right innovation or you know, maybe something strictly dedicated or to a very niche application. But you know, generally speaking, when I look at the next three or you know, two, five years, uh I think that the same central theme will clearly remain again sustainability. And in Europe especially, sustainability will increasingly be translated into regulation. So I know we already talked about it, but I think that today one of the challenges is that the regulatory landscape is still quite fragmented. We have different rules, guidelines, expectations coming from different institutions and frameworks. Uh you know, in Europe for ruling the migration, you know, Swiss ordinance was one of the most ordinance, you know, followed by the market. Now German ordinance is becoming more important, and others. Uh we maybe didn't say that we are part and member, active member of EUPOA, and uh we are following strictly the the rules, and you know, but direction is clearly towards a more structured and harmonized European approach. So this is what I uh had the chance to learn uh listening and talking directly with uh uh you know with our European uh how do you say um sorry, I don't I don't remember the name, but sorry yeah you know the the direction is to have a more harmonized uh European approach, uh and that will have a direct impact on how inks are developed, select, and used. Um we already see this a movement in areas such as a packaging recyclability, food contact, compliance, and chemical restriction. For instance, you know, if we think about uh uh the EU packaging and packaging waste regulation uh is now the new core reference for packaging uh placed uh on the EU market. And the European Commission, so now I found the word, so sorry, European Commission has uh also confirmed, for instance, that PFAS will be banned for from packaging from mid-2026. Uh so I believe the industry should pay very close attention to the evolution of regulatory requirements because they will uh influence both product development and for sure application strategy. At the same time, I expect paper and board to play a more central role in many packaging developments, while plastic structure will continue to be simplified, reduced, or redesigned towards a lighter and more recyclable monomaterial solution. You know, this is already, you know, this direction is very much aligned with the broader EU push toward packaging reduction, reuse, and recyclability. So thinking about outside packaging, I also see uh continued growth in textile-based visual communication where fabrics keep gaining relevance as an application with strong development potential. So, overall, if I have to summarize uh in uh it in one sentence, maybe I will say this so sustainability will not just remain the an important topic, it will be the main driver of innovation and change across the industry.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:51

So yeah, and that's that's huge, isn't it? In that, like you say, not just a topic, the fundamental driver. I had a previous podcast interview earlier this week with Paul Jenkins at the PAC Hub, and they assess and have catalogued and have a library of over 11,000 packaging innovations, and the business has been running 12 years, and he and and part of what they do is observe and see what is happening out there in the design of packaging and the production, manufacturing, distribution of packaging. Yeah, he believes that 90% of packaging design is now being uh either inspired by or to align with sustainability regulations. Yeah. And that's ninety percent. And that's a big change. So that that aligns very much with your key point there that um sustainability will not just be an important subject, it's the main driver of innovation and change across the industry. And I appreciate you Providing that bit of insight there. Um any sort of final thoughts before we um wrap up, Stefano?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:08

But yeah, so again, so we uh of course sustainability uh is the driver. If we think about packaging, uh and not only packaging, but the behavior and the uh cultural change of the people, of the population is is the other driver. If if we think how much our life changed after uh COVID, if we think how much is improved the you know online shopping with any single shipment, and and even here uh you say you say well before when you say uh you know logistically is not only changing packaging in design, but it's changing in logistics as well. So and of course, it's not only about ink, of course, it's about uh many manufactur manufacture together. So for sure, we are acting in a in an industry completely movement, is never uh never how do you say uh stopped or stopped in place.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:22

You know, I don't I don't always it's always changing.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:25

It always changes, and it's changes uh again for following the needs of the people, the uh expectation. So it's very interesting. Market is very interesting, uh, you know, industry. And to link to what I said before, and that's the other reason why I never had in mind to change, you know, to change the market, so because it's very funny. So uh I I could close say that probably the reason why we are here talking together is because this it's a very funny activity for me. It's I'm very happy to be part of this uh movement. And I want to thank you again for giving me you the giving me the opportunity to uh to share some maybe relevant information or interesting information, I hope. So thank you again, Marcus.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:23

And no, thanks for joining us, Stephanie. I think and fantastic to have you on the podcast and also as INX being one of our new future print partners as well. We're um delighted to be working with you and appreciate you joining us today.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:38

Yeah. Anytime.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:42

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