Engaging Experts
After 25 years helping litigators find the right expert witnesses, Round Table Group’s network contains some of the world’s greatest experts. On this podcast, we talk to some of them about what’s new in their field of study and their experience as expert witnesses.
Engaging Experts
Engaging with Economic Damages & Internet Expert, Mr. Sameer Somal
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In this episode…
Our guest, Sameer Somal, is the CEO of Blue Ocean Global Technology, an online reputation management firm, and Girl Power Talk and Girl Power USA, a 501(c)(3) nonprofit social enterprise dedicated to empowering women leaders in developing economies. He is a published author and expert in economic damages, IP, and Internet defamation. Mr. Somal holds CPA, CFP, and CAIA certifications.
According to Mr. Somal, experts should take a proactive role in creating and fostering relationships with expert witnesses and attorneys. Relationships are foundational to lead generation, expertise maintenance, and a productive working environment. With a support network of peers, it is easier to navigate the inevitable obstacles even experienced experts encounter.
Check out the entire episode for our discussion on challenging depositions, collaboration, and lessons from Lincoln.
Introduction to Sameer Somal
Speaker 1This episode is brought to you by Roundtable Group the experts on experts. We've been connecting attorneys with experts for over 25 years. Find out more at roundtablegroupcom.
Speaker 2Welcome to Discussions at the Roundtable. I'm your host, Noah Balmer, and today I'm excited to welcome Samir Samal to the show. Mr Samal is the CEO of Blue Ocean Global Technology, an online reputation management firm, as well as Girl Power Talk and Girl Power USA, which is a 501c3 nonprofit social enterprise dedicated to empowering women leaders in developing economies. He's a well-published author and expert in economic damages, IP and internet defamation, and he holds a CFA, CFP and CAIA certifications. Mr Samuel, thank you so much for joining me here today at the Roundtable.
Speaker 3Thank you, Noah. It's a pleasure and honor to be here and looking forward to speaking on subjects of mutual interest and delighted.
Speaker 2Absolutely. Well, let's jump into it. For nearly 20 years you've been in finance, ai, nonprofits and reputation management, just to name a few. How did you first get into expert witnessing?
Speaker 3Well, it's kind of that Dr Benjamin Franklin aphorism Noah Diligence is the mother of good luck. We founded Blue Ocean Global Technology, did a lot of work for PR firms, doing the technical work, collaborating on campaigns. They referred us to law firms and an Amlaw top firm, nixon Peabody, approached me one day and said Samir, we've interviewed five experts, or four experts, you're the fifth and we want you to be an expert witness in this case. And I said what is an expert witness in this case? And I said what is an expert witness?
Speaker 2Why would.
Speaker 3I want to do that, and the folks at Mixing Peabody said well, samir, number one, you're like the perfect expert witness, because you're not what we call a professional expert witness. You run a company that has served hundreds of clients. You've worked with our law firm on sensitive situations, advised our team, and so we know that you're able to provide value, and you understand the nuances of digital advertising, online reputation management, technology development, and you also speak at events all over the world. You author CLE programs and we know you'd be very good in front of a judge and a jury, and so why don't you give it a shot? And so, yeah, the point of no return. That seems like a lifetime ago.
Speaker 2Well, speaking of that, how long ago was this give or take?
Speaker 3It was about eight years ago, I think.
Speaker 2Okay, so you've been doing this for a hot minute. What sorts of things did you cover in those initial phone calls? What did you talk about in the vetting process?
Speaker 3Well, look one. I think of course you cover your background, you share the process. So our process is, of course, speak and connect with attorneys and be relatable and share that. Hey look, we receive documents, we review them, we come back with questions. Then if there's an expert report involved, which is more oftentimes not the case then we come up with an outline and then we're collaborative and working with counsel to review that outline.
Speaker 3I know that there's in every group of people, noah, as you can attest to. Everything's the bell curve and I always say that. I tell attorneys upfront. I say if you could wave a wand and make a new friend and strategic partner and find the perfect expert witness where we are collaborative, we're thoughtful, we check pride and ego at the door because we want to get better. I and our team at Blue Ocean Global Technology really tries to be that. And then you know of course we want to cover, we ask for an overview of the case and you know clarity about the expert's role, specifically how they envision it.
Speaker 3Naturally compensation is a subject of interest. And then you know just disclosure, kind of um. You know other opinions, what are some of the nuances that are concerning for the case, and discuss deadlines and any sort of formats that are appropriate, and then, um, I always try to address communication. Do they like email? Do they like phone? I let them know that this case will be a priority and you can reach me. As long as I'm not in an airplane, you can pretty much reach me on my mobile phone, and here's our team that is going to be supporting me for this engagement.
Speaker 2You talk about teamwork a lot. What are some of the elements of that teamwork that really make a great relationship between the expert witness and the engaging party?
Speaker 3You know one. I think, using your ears and mouth, you know proportionately which I think men struggle at relative to women. Of course, making a generalization, but I think there's some truth to it. You know one you're going to work with attorneys that are of all different types. Some are going to want to be hands-off, laissez-faire. They're going to say do your work, come back with the report looks good and you barely interact with them. Others, they want to play Tom Brady and Bill Belichick and they want to manage every element of the process. They don't want you talking to the client without them. They don't want you emailing them.
Speaker 3So you got to feel that out at the beginning and you got to say, hey, what are the rules for engagement here? And and you know we're flexible to to be able to work in the way that makes most sense. But what I don't want to do you know, mrs, miss, mr Counsel, you know they counsel what I don't want to do is have to put toothpaste back in the tube. So understand upfront, I found that attorneys they love that. They're like Samir, thank you so much. Here are the things. And I asked them what has been an awesome expert relationship and collaboration, what made that you look so fondly upon that in hindsight. And what are some of the experts? What did they do as to why you'd never call them again?
Speaker 3And so I asked those questions as well.
Speaker 2Did you have somebody show you the ropes your first couple of times, tell you what to expect in your first couple engagements, or were you kind of thrown in a little bit blind?
Breaking into Expert Witnessing
Speaker 3Well, look, my comment is expert witness work is analogous to entrepreneurship. It's like jumping in the Pacific Ocean and swimming across, and each case and each situation is idiosyncratic. I've had some awesome friends, other experts, attorneys. One that comes to mind is a gentleman named William Cheslovsky. He is with a firm, ginsburg Jacobs, in Chicago. He's been an incredible mentor and friend After engaging us and we worked on several sensitive cases. I won't mention against.
Speaker 3you know which prominent entity because several of them are still going on, but Billy, as you know, our team likes to affectionately call him has just, you know, because we built a personal relationship. He's tried to help me in every way possible, not just on his cases, but for me to become a better professional, an entrepreneur, and what I say is that you can learn something from everyone and when you really take the time to earn mutual trust, respect and friendship with counsel, there's a lot you can learn from them. So be humble, make it personal and show the attorneys that you know what you are, somebody that they're happy to be involved in this case, and you'll find that then they want to help you and ask them for guidance. I always say that, hey, look, here is the way I'm thinking about it, counsel, but I welcome your thoughts and perspective, and maybe I have it completely wrong, but I know that our goal here is to make sure we have an optimal outcome and I always say you know you're the shepherd, I'm the proverbial sheep.
Speaker 3This is your case, your counsel. I'm here to hopefully contribute to where you want to get to and in order to do that, I take your advice and guidance and mentorship seriously.
Speaker 2When you work on a trial team? Have you spent a significant amount of time working on teams that include other expert witnesses?
Speaker 3Absolutely Complex cases, you know. I'm thinking of one in particular involving intellectual property infringement and an e-commerce brand, and there were multiple experts that are there, and so one it's council has different ideas. Sometimes they want you to look at the other people's experts reports. Sometimes they don't. They want you to sometimes substantiate what they're saying. Again, you've got to seek counsel's guidance. But I think, you know, having an abundance mentality, you know, is something that I have in everything that I do. So if I'm going to work with other experts, I probably can learn from them, probably can build relationships with them, and you know, I found that when you foster relationships from the heart and mind and people never forget how you made them feel. And opposition experts I've gone against. I've forged friendships with and they've wanted to collaborate and they've referred cases my way. And, of course, experts that have been on the same side have been able to think of me positively and pass my name along, which, of course, has everything to do with that fun notion of reputation.
Speaker 2You have a focus that I like on relationships and building relationships not only with attorneys but other expert witnesses, because you learn from each other. What are some of the best ways that expert witnesses and, in particular, newer expert witnesses, can get together with other expert witnesses and understand the way that they think, the way they organize, the way they strategize, the way they think about expert witnessing in general? Is that primarily through the workplace, through meeting people in engagements, do you get together somehow? How do you go about forming these sorts of bonds and relationships?
Speaker 3Well, one is be present. It doesn't matter whether you're sitting in the back bench of a courtroom and you're sitting next to another expert, or you're in the hallway or you take one of those classes. Our director of legal research at Blue Ocean Global Technology, who's also the chief legal officer at GrowPower Talk my colleague and friend, asha Dougal. We had her participate in several different courses related to expert witness work because she's also become an expert on our team and she fostered friendships and introduced several of those people to me and that's resulted in new clients and business.
Speaker 3I think that you have to proactively pursue reaching out to people and you have to come at it with hey look, you're looking to learn, you're looking to see where there's common ground, but have the agenda of. I want to understand where somebody has come from, who they are today and how can I be an asset in their life. And so, for instance, you know I've featured I can think about one case I did in North Carolina and there was a data forensics expert on the opposition side and we started talking and our team ended up interviewing him. You know Derek Ellington and we featured him on Blue Ocean Global Technologies blog and you know he comes back to me and says you know, samir, people find that interview and that's been a big, you know positive, and so I think you have to find ways and you go into it saying hey look, how do I give without remembering and receive without forgetting? And I think when you do that and you stay persistent and tactful, in how you, you know, collaborate with others.
Speaker 3I always say, you know, if you give me the opportunity, you'll see over a little bit of time that you're somebody you want to keep around, and I probably bring up the proverbial average on all the people you have in your life.
Building Strong Expert-Attorney Relationships
Speaker 2Let's get into some of the nuts and bolts of expert witnessing. Tell me a little bit about your preparation techniques. You're going to go into a deposition. You're getting ready. What are the sorts of things that you like to do to make sure that you're well prepared for either a deposition or even a cross-examination or a trial?
Speaker 3Well, first off, let's clear the elephant in the room Doing a deposition, which is kind of like being pinned up against the wall with the attorney, because it's not a two-way street, although maybe I'll tell you some stories about ways I've made it a two-way street.
Speaker 3I'd love to hear some stories about that Fun and entertaining, but anytime you're going in, it is going to be a stressful, nerve-wracking situation. When people like, for instance, I'm testifying in a trial next week in New Orleans and I was talking to a client earlier today and she said you know, samir, that must be so exciting. Are you excited when you go in and testify in trial? And I say really excited when it's over? It's like running a race.
Speaker 3You can't wait to get in, and, of course, looking back favorably, and I've been fortunate to benefit significantly as an entrepreneur because people say, well, I'm thinking about hiring this guy. Samir Samal and his team at Blue Ocean for digital know some some custom dashboards or even software development. Well, he testifies on these issues. That is something important. So you know that level of reputation.
Speaker 3Um, you know, I I can think I had one um recent new client that watched a video testimonial from an attorney in california and, and that client and their counsel said Samir, we know you're really good. I don't know how you got a senior statesman in the legal industry who is in his mid-60s to leave you a video testimonial about how good you are, because attorneys are typically loath to do that, but he must really like you and you clearly did a really good job and that was enough. And so how did I get to that point? Well, for that particular case in Orange County, I overprepared and I always try to do that and you know one, you got to know your report. Everything falls back to your report when you're oftentimes under cross-examination, and so if there's opposition reports, you got to know those too.
Speaker 3Or if they're off limits. You got to make sure that that's clear as well, making sure that you can always ask when being cross-examined, to have someone point back to that, anticipating potential points of weakness. In your own case, where are the avenues that they're going to come back? It doesn't matter how much the damages are that I quantify, I know it's the opposition side to come back and to say, look, why did you choose this? Why did you choose this particular variable on the impressions model and the click-through rate?
Speaker 3And I know that's going to come. So how do I make sure a defensible conservative estimate is in play and so you have a clear understanding of how your testimony fits into the case? Of course, what are the legal principles involved? Without you know giving any legal conclusions. In fact, that's one of my favorite disclosures you can just like you know you're going into any exam. You've got to prepare answers for it, and there's a big difference between you know, anticipating what people are going to provide and simply just reading over your report. I do mock cross examinations with counsel or with our own team. You know we now have 14 international attorneys on staff, and so I'll have them. You know, of course, prepare me and review, you know previous testimonies and things that you've said, and again go back to counsel and make sure that you ask them. You know, even for the case I'm doing next week, I'm preparing with counsel tomorrow, also on Saturday, and we're potentially even meeting on Sunday when I get to new Orleans.
Speaker 2Is does some of this happen, or all of it happen, virtually Uh.
Speaker 3Well, you know, following COVID, I think a good portion of all of our work is virtual. Many times, I think, counsel and clients want you to appear in person. You know I've done depositions and testimony because I have oftentimes a committed calendar. For instance, I was speaking at a family office investor conference in Bogota, colombia, but I also did a deposition on Monday of last week from Bogota, and so remote, I think, is part of it. But you know that those interpersonal connections are important and you know you try to make sure you meet somewhere in the middle. You know, I know that sometimes there's moving targets, trials change, and oftentimes I have an international travel calendar that's in place. So you try to move things and it's a healthy balance of both as an expert. But you know, make sure you're not a diva about saying hey you know what?
Speaker 3this is how I want things.
Speaker 2Are there any specific considerations when you appear online versus in person, or is it largely the same?
Expert Witness Preparation Techniques
Speaker 3Yeah, well, look, if you're appearing online, it's like 2D versus 3D, so your energy is going to be more important. Of course you're going to dress professionally, regardless. Your energy is going to be more important. Of course you're going to dress professionally regardless, but you have an opportunity to, you know, make up for the fact that you aren't able to be there in person.
Speaker 3So, for example, I can think of one particular case where my testimony, as it is, oftentimes, is cited as being critical for the outcome, which, of course, is the ultimate compliment and it was a jury trial, and I started by apologizing to the jury and saying that you know I really regret that I'm not able to appear in person. It was travel that had been earmarked for quite some time and I hope that you'll just accept my apology. I know that your time is valuable and your service to our judicial system is something that is near and dear to my heart, and thank you for giving up your time. Not that you may have much of a choice, but I want you to know that I respect that, having served on a jury and that's how I began, and you can see the jury just warm up to the person that I am because I showed my appreciation.
Speaker 2So connecting with the jury in that way is important. That's something that I've heard from other expert witnesses as well. What other ways do you use, whether or not you're online or in person, to kind of connect with the jury or in?
Speaker 3person to kind of connect with the jury. Well, the jury is, you know, they're also people, so you have to remember that and I think that when you acknowledge and have empathy for their situation, and also many times, juries you know are made up of you know not as sophisticated of folks that are involved in the trial. If it's in you, it's a company trial and you have CEOs and you have all these attorneys, and so I try to communicate effectively, be educational. One of the ways that I've differentiated myself and why I think I'm sought after for casework in a range of subjects, like some other experts asked me like how, samir, do you have so many different subjects that you become an expert on? I think that's because I take an educational approach. I prepare so that if I'm speaking to a jury, I am able to take some of these complex concepts involving internet defamation, google Analytics you know they may or may not spend any time on social media- and so how?
Speaker 3do you make that information relatable and digestible? And you know, when you say I hope everyone on the jury is following me. If not, I'm happy to rephrase what I just said, because I think it's a really important point on this case as to why I'm here and they lean in, you're able to look at the countenance so you speak to them and be a little bit, you know, vulnerable about it. You know I've had cases where you know I say look, you know, this case has become personal to me because it's such an egregious example of the violations of our First Amendment and freedom of speech. We have laws where you can't say anything about anyone for this very reason, and so I took on this case because for me it is about justice and it's been very clear to me through my independent investigation that these particular points are the tipping point as to why I believe that my report is accurate and valid.
Speaker 2Do you use visual aids to help convey some of that information to the jury?
Speaker 3You know I defer to counsel on that. I think a lot of times you'll get asked visual aids. You know by your own counsel. I think they can be helpful. Many times our reports are so expansive and you got different appendices that there are visuals. I think when we're creating reports we're putting in visual aids, without a doubt. But yes, they can be helpful, but collaborate with the attorneys to make sure that they're, because many times counsel will have a presentation and they'll have different elements they want to follow so that, depending upon the case, may or may not make sense. But of course, as you well know, you know there's a thousand words, and they can certainly be impactful.
Connecting with Juries Effectively
Speaker 2Sure, absolutely. You mentioned justice. Is that what's important to you about being an expert witness? What, in general, what are the things that drive you to be an expert witness? What, in a broader sense, is important about the profession?
Speaker 3a voice for those who don't have one. I'm in a fortunate position where I do turn down many cases, especially if I don't feel like it's something that I want on my own profile or I'm going to be able to represent because I don't necessarily believe, or I say some obvious warning signs which we can cover as well. You know I love being an expert witness because of the learning curve and you're able to meet and interact with attorneys and clients that you wouldn't otherwise. I think, being a resourceful person, I'm proud of the fact that probably 75% of the attorneys and clients that hire our team and me to become an expert, they end up working with us in other capacities, with their law firms, with the companies or with the individuals or to actually address some of the things that we've spoken about, because that's where our business, that's how we became an expert, so it creates opportunities. I think also, you are challenged. You know, I remember that. You know Richard Branson line of you know receive an opportunity. You know sometimes you say yes and you figure it out later. And you know I think I can say that now that as an expert, there've been times I've taken on cases where I didn't necessarily know how I was going to go about it. But I said, you know what, I think I've got part of this and counsel his confidence and I've spent an extraordinary amount of time time that I don't bill for, of course getting up to speed and working so that I can best represent, and then those areas become, you know, focal points of expertise.
Speaker 3It's like people ask me you know, samir, I'm a stark contrast to many experts because they may have an academic background, of course, not generalizing but there are a lot of academics. I don't have an academic background, although I would say I'm a closet nerd and somebody who tries to go to bed a little bit smarter than when I grew up. But I'll give you an example in a landmark case that I was doing for one of the largest law firms in the world, dla Piper, there was an opposing expert in this sensitive case and so I was staying up all night preparing and helping the cross-examination for the other side and they relied upon me and I built, you know, built very good relationships with some of the partners there in Melissa and Tamar and in this particular case, the opposing expert that I had done a rebuttal report was an academic, which is great and some of my best friends are academics. To be very clear, I'm a member of the Academy of Legal Business Studies but I don't necessarily have the academic. My justification for being an expert is the practical experience. But this particular gentleman had of course, been almost personal in his expert report, critique of me, and so much so the council and the team at DLA was not happy about it. They're like Samarit's almost crossing the line here the way he is, and so you know, I reviewed and looked at it and I ended up giving the advice and it turns out that this gentleman was a.
Speaker 3He was a consultant and he did some work in internet and then he became an academic. But I empowered counsel with some of the questions and I remember he's on the stand and I think the lead counsel, tamar, who heads intellectual property in the US for DLH. She said to him so when did you leave practice and become an academic? And I forget the exact dates, but I'd done the calculations when I looked at that and it was two years, I think, before Google was founded. Oh, wow, and the case was about intellectual property infringement and e-commerce etc. So she kind of walked him down and said okay, so you're providing testimony in this, but you left the field two years before Google was founded. But you're testifying on this, so, anyway, sorry for the long-winded answer.
Speaker 2No, that's great, absolutely. I want to go back to one of the things that you mentioned. That stuck with me was that there's some kind of red flags, some things, some warning signs, you might've said, when you are deciding whether or not to accept an engagement. What are some of those things that you look for? What are the things that set you off, that you think to yourself, hmm, maybe this isn't the right engagement for me.
Speaker 3A couple of them are like your inner heart and gut about the person that's hiring you, especially the client, and I can think of one particular case that I ended up dropping. I genuinely empathize and feel for you, which is why I want to take this case on and I'm going to be as reasonable as I can from a billing and fee perspective. And two things happened. One, this particular individual. She wanted full control over my report and would disagree with everything, and the conversations were exhausting because you know everything that we'd say and I'd be like, well, who's the expert here? And then, from a compensation standpoint, she kept saying that I'm really glad that you want to do this report and you're going to do it as reasonable as possible. And I sent a bill to her and she's like I'm having a meltdown about this. We need to put a cap on it.
Speaker 3And what I always say to clients and counsel is that, look, I'm a damages expert and I cover a lot of different ground on damages, agnostic of what case it is. And if this case, I'm going to recommend six, seven, eight figures of damages in order to defend against that and in order for you to get an outcome, we're going to have to put in a lot of work. It's not about oh great, I have this expert witness case, I'm going to be billing a lot. It's how is it going to stand up in court? And that also relates to how you ensure that you give the best possible chance for settlement. So she kept playing into the fact that I well, you understand my case and I'm glad you're.
Speaker 3And then when it came time to pay and I ended up leaving that case and not accept, not even receiving a dollar from it, and that's okay. That was a lesson learned, because I'd rather leave the case on good terms and say, hey look, technically we have this pending balance and that is owed and I'm leaving this case. I'd rather chalk it up to me being a little bit smarter in that case. So that's one where it just didn't feel right. And it's one thing to have anxiety or stress about a case because you want to do your best and it's challenging and you're committed to it. It's another thing to dread working with a client and on a case. And if you have the latter.
Speaker 3that may be a warning sign. That may be a reason maybe you shouldn't do that one maybe a warning sign and maybe a reason.
Personal Motivations and Warning Signs
Speaker 2Maybe you shouldn't do that one when you talk about how it was a lesson learned. How do you go about setting those expectations before they become some sort of a problem? Do you now take a retainer, for instance, or do you make sure that the billing is pretty nailed down before you get started? Or how do you? How do you grapple with that?
Speaker 3Well, in this case it was very clear and transparent. It just so happened that she started squirming because she was getting counsel paid for from insurance, so our money had to come out of pocket and that's okay.
Speaker 3I typically do request a retainer. But again, you pretty much know in most situations you're dealing with a business, you're dealing with an individual relative prominence, you're dealing with a law firm. Sometimes in the engagement letters I send, you know I normally have that. You know the payments come through the law firm so that I make sure there's some accountability there. But for me, I you know, typically you know there are no about it and you get busy. So I think you just try to be reasonable.
Speaker 3I've had a number of cases where people have come back and they said hey, can you work with me a little bit on this? And I say you know what? Yeah, I can. And I've had the vast majority of cases where people you know they don't even flinch or think twice when they pass along, when we pass along invoices, and I think that's a testament to people knowing you, you provided value and then being confident about it. So in summary, there I think you just need to make sure that you measure twice, cut once and when, when you're working with people that you feel good about and they like you.
Speaker 3Usually payment and billing isn't an issue, but regardless of the type of business you're in an industry be it law, be it expert witness, be it a doctor, be it a manufacturing company you're always going to have clients in situations that people don't necessarily want to pay, and that's why they have something called accounts receivable.
Speaker 2Do you have any stories about cases that affected the way that you approach expert witnessing fundamentally or kind of change the way that you think about things or somehow inform the way that you go about some aspect of expert witnessing? What are the kind of seminal moments in your career?
Speaker 3You know, I have to bring in one of my favorite subjects and passions, which happens to be the study and understanding of the life of Abraham Lincoln. And, of course, mr Lincoln was a lawyer. I have an entire bookcase dedicated to Mr Lincoln. He's a personal hero of mine. I am a member of the Abraham Lincoln Association and I've found ways to inculcate and integrate lines, lessons, aphorisms, yarns, anecdotes of Mr Lincoln into my life. In fact, I'm engaged to give private dinner engagements that clients or people hire me and I just tell Lincoln yarns for several hours. Or, you know, the power goes out on a particular you know presentation and I've got to find a way to keep the audience engaged and I've done that.
Speaker 3And so I think that before I comment on how I've expanded upon, I can go back to one particular case where it was a very contentious deposition. I think it was a 10, 12 hour deposition at least it felt that way and it was against a rather prominent attorney who is reputable in internet defamation, and it was very contentious during the deposition and he had researched everything about me. I mean much respect. I knew it was going to be a challenge, but I was like wow, I mean he had gone into all the different case files of my existing cases, knew when I was going to call, knew when trial was asked me about you know my work and and so he methodically went through it.
Speaker 3And I remember, because I had prepared extensively with counsel, remember at one point him saying to me you know I want to put on record Cause. Remember, deposition is kind of like you're up against the wall and he's shooting you and you don't really have a defense. And he said I want to put on record that the witness is not answering my question. And and I responded with I want to put on my record that counsel maybe didn't expect me to be as astute as I am and prepared and and maybe should have prepared a little bit more, and doesn't like my answers, and I can't do anything about that, but I am giving my answers appropriately. And so there's a lot of that back and forth and it was quite adversarial, which is okay.
Speaker 1And at the end of that deposition.
Speaker 3I said to him and I said you know Joe. I said I just wish you were more like President Lincoln or Lincoln. The attorney kind of did a double take and said well, kind of looked at me and I said you know, joe, when Mr Lincoln knew this client was guilty, he actually couldn't give 100%, which is a violation actually of current ABA code. But you know, you know your client is guilty, but you're a hired gun and you're given 1,000%. I wish you wouldn't, but hey, that's right and the line was so. I mean I think counsel on our side had to go off video and he encouraged me and I have an article actually that's been submitted to the American Bar Association about Lincoln ethics, that whole situation. But the long winded point there is that I've found ways to be relatable because of my relentless study of Mr Lincoln and have been on the stand.
Lincoln's Influence on Expert Testimony
Speaker 3you know giving analogies, you know that relate to Mr Lincoln. I think that has become a competitive advantage. And I've been engaged by opposition counsel who came back to me and said, Samir, you did this case two years ago and I remember you and you were so good. And I remember going back and saying, man, I wish our expert was as good as you are. And now here I am. I got this case and I'm you're the first person I thought of. And you know I wish our expert was as good as you are. And now here I am. I got this case and you're the first person I thought of and I thought it might be inappropriate or a little bit strange to call you, but I really do, like Lincoln. I got Lincoln in my office, like let's talk about it.
Speaker 3So anyway, that's where Mr Lincoln has been a part of my persona and identity, and probably not the worst person to be associated with, so I'll work hard for it.
Speaker 2Absolutely, absolutely. Before we wrap up, do you have any last advice? Words of wisdom for expert witnesses and, in particular, newer expert witnesses.
Speaker 3One is those who say they can. And those who say they can are both usually right. Give it your best. Know that. You know. Every person, every company, every country started from nothing.
Speaker 3People oftentimes I'm asked I was asked by another new case, samir. The first thing they say you know we're going with you. But, samir, before we get started today, can you just walk me through how you became? Because they've looked at my case history and they're like you're an expert witness in financial related cases. I saw one regarding wealth management. You've done. Intellectual property, you've done. Technology source code You've done. You know. You testified against meta and an arbitration technology source code you've done. You know. You testified against meta and an arbitration. You're across the board, like how did you expand the discipline of expert work and and and how have you been admitted every time? What? What are some of the ways that you've gone about it? And I think that that um, and of course, I don't need to go into my response, but the point is is that if samir, who doesn't necessarily have a technology background, is considered one of the most prominent and reputable internet defamation expert witnesses, I think that it's plausible for you Be flexible.
Speaker 3Don't go in with a rigid mindset. You know what this attorney and counsel may want to do it completely different from the other. So be malleable, be flexible, proactively, follow up. I was on another case involving a prominent gentleman in politics. I have a case right now and I followed up with the attorney because we'd sent them the draft report, you know, every week for four weeks, every week for four weeks.
Speaker 3And the counsel in Virginia, you know he said Samir. I know I've been. The only reason I haven't responded is that the client hasn't been there. But your follow-up is awesome and communicate. Pick up the phone. I pick up the phone. I call an attorney. I leave them a message. I let them hear my voice. I let them know that I'm thinking about them. Don't hide behind email, don't pretend that. Okay, I sent the email. Now my work is done and I've been engaged again and again because attorneys say, samir, there's nobody that follow up as thoughtfully and patiently and it's kept me on track on the case and that becomes my reputation and why people want to work with me.
Speaker 2Mr Samuels Sage Advice. Thank you so much for joining me here today at the Roundtable.
Speaker 3Thank you. It was a pleasure and appreciate the opportunity, noah, to share perspective, and if one or two people from the Roundtable community or the aggregate population can leave here with a little bit more context and knowledge to make more informed decisions and become better experts, then I think me and you consider today a big win.
Speaker 2Absolutely, and thank you to our listeners for joining us for another discussion at the Roundtable Cheers.
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