Engaging Experts
After 25 years helping litigators find the right expert witnesses, Round Table Group’s network contains some of the world’s greatest experts. On this podcast, we talk to some of them about what’s new in their field of study and their experience as expert witnesses.
Engaging Experts
Engaging with Real Estate Expert, Michael Maxwell
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In this episode…
Michael Maxwell is the Managing Partner of Maxwell and Partners, LLC, a firm specializing in complex real estate litigation matters. He is a sought-after expert witness with over three decades of experience and a former professor at Nova Southeastern University. Cases are as unique as individuals, according to Mr. Maxwell. While there are similarities, he treats each engagement as a new experience, without bringing in the baggage of pre-conceptions. He views each outing with a fresh perspective, which allows him to maintain a thoughtful demeanor and an open mind and develop more effective expert opinions.
Check out the entire episode for our discussion on the expert-attorney relationship, using demonstratives, and enjoying the challenge.
Introduction to Michael Maxwell
Speaker 1This episode is brought to you by Roundtable Group the experts on experts.
Speaker 2We've been connecting attorneys with experts for over 30 years. Find out more at roundtablegroupcom. Welcome to Engaging Experts. I'm your host, Noah Balmer, and today I'm excited to welcome Mr Michael Maxwell to the show Now. Mr Maxwell is the managing partner at Maxwell and Partners LLC, a development and consulting firm specializing in complex real estate litigation matters. He is an experienced expert witness and former professor at Nova Southeastern University. Mr Maxwell, thank you so much for joining me here today.
Speaker 1Well, thank you for inviting me, Noah. It's a real pleasure.
Speaker 2Absolutely. Let's jump into it With what looks like over 30 years of experience, maybe more, in real estate. How did you first become involved and interested in general and expert witnessing work?
Speaker 1Well, that's a really good question. I was trained as an architect and city planner, and so you never really think about doing that in those particular roles. You're there to solve problems, sure. But in short, it sort of found me I was, you know, working in regulatory work and doing assistance on some complex projects as a consultant to landowners, and the attorneys I was working with on this particular endeavor said, hey, I think you'd be a good, you know, a good expert for a case that we're doing. And so I said, well, I mean really. And they said, well, you've demonstrated that in your work, let's see what you'd be like in court. That began back in the 80s, yeah.
Speaker 2Were you familiar with expert witnessing at all at that point? Was that something that was even on your radar, or was it kind of out of the blue?
Speaker 1No, I hadn't even been in traffic court. I knew all about, you know the legal process and regulations and how and how the court system worked and everything, as you know my role in government and in planning. But in terms of being an expert?
Speaker 2no, I didn't even think of myself as such. Were you able to find somebody to do any mentoring or show you the ropes? Was it just the attorney?
Speaker 1No, not at all. As a matter of fact, I wish someone had mentored me, but no one showed me the ropes. I was just sort of thrown in and it was like you're either going to drown or you're going to swim. Take your pick, and so you know. That's how really the expert found me, and it was all the job training. And after all these years I'm still learning things and still seeking to improve myself on every case.
Speaker 2For some of our newer expert witnesses. What were some of the things that you wish you had known when you first were kind of thrown into the deep end of the pool.
Speaker 1Well, I wish I had known about asking for a mentor and people to advise me.
Speaker 1I think I would have been a little more confident in my role in some of these early cases and I probably wouldn't have spent the same amount of time that I did On the job.
Speaker 1Learning can take quite a bit of time and you've really got to distinguish that from what you're going to bill your client for for actual work versus what it is that you're learning, and so I did that. I tend, I like to be very ethical in all of my dealings with people, and so that on-the-job training really got to me. You know I also learned more by reading all the subject areas I got into. You know how things would work with others in some of the cases that I was involved in, and you know I was still and still do consult with clients on a variety of real estate issues. You know complex, simple, on a large diversity in the realm of real estate, and much of my work just really focuses on solving complex problems related to construction, land use, failed projects and then working with owners and attorneys on strategies not only for court cases but for development.
Speaker 2Is there a significant difference in the different types of cases that you choose to undertake?
Speaker 1I think every case is unique, and so when we talk about a different type of case, I think every case is a different type of case because the players are different. It's like, yeah, you may be playing soccer, but at the same time, it's a different field and a different team, and so each case tends to be very unique. And you know, I try to, I try my best to not only adapt to that, but I look forward to it as well, because it's stimulating. You get to meet new people and you get to meet new challenges.
Speaker 2Absolutely. Let's back up to when. When you get that call and somebody hits you with hey, I've got this case, I think that you're the right person, how do you determine whether or not you actually are the right person for a case? How do you know that your expertise is going to be a great fit for an engagement?
Finding the Expert Witness Path
Speaker 1Well, first of all, I really look at what's going on and what's being asked of me. You know my expertise includes construction issues, due diligence, finance, entitlements, contracts you know different types of, you know ownership structures and, as well as you know land use, zoning, historic preservation those tend to be my overall wheelhouse and so if I get something that's sort of out of that and I've been asked to do certain things out of that I tend not to try to take those cases I really look at. You know how am I going to work on this case? You know working with counsel is really important, but most of all, to understand if the case is a good fit for me, I've got to listen.
Speaker 1I need to read what it is the pleadings say and I need to understand what is it that the team wants me to achieve for them? Okay, and is that something that I think I can do based on what I have read and heard? That's essential and that's really the basis of communications with all of the attorneys that I've worked with. So, in terms of fit, just recently the Roundtable Group has sent me several projects of which I referred to other people because I didn't feel my expertise wholly fit that and I knew others that I could refer to them. That would be really on spot for their needs.
Speaker 2Speaking of you know you bring up Roundtable Group. Do you find expert witness referral services to be particularly useful?
Speaker 1Yes, I do. Roundtable Group, you know, since I've been involved with it, has asked me, you know, to contemplate a number of cases, several of which I've taken and I really enjoy it. First of all, working with them is easy, and when I say easy, you know it follows a standard format. You know it moves quickly and you know decisions are taken and you know billing and taking care of retainer issues and contract issues. You know decisions are taken and you know billing and taking care of retainer issues and contract issues. You know they take care of it for me and that's something that I really feel good about.
Speaker 1You know, in working with them and with other other companies, you know I can't do that to the same extent that I can with Roundtable Group and I'm involved with several others and do I try to have cases ongoing all the time if I can. And so you know some it's like, okay, you got to build backwards, but roundtable group, I'm able to achieve, you know, retainer with that because, hey, we've all been in this business and not gotten paid. So you know I always like to get paid for what I do if I can.
Speaker 2Well, that's great to hear. I'm glad that Roundtable Group has been working out for you. You had mentioned teams and that's an interesting topic. How often does your work exist on a trial team? Are you working with other expert witnesses, paralegals, consultants? What is a typical trial team that you're on consist of, and how is your interaction among the various pieces?
Speaker 1Well, in terms of teams, every project is different, as I mentioned.
Speaker 1I'll give you an example, I'm working with several attorneys presently on a, a dispute between a purchaser and a buyer, and it's an after the fact dispute, long after the property has closed, and the team I'm really working with is the two attorneys, because you have to remember that virtually everything is discoverable. So we have to be very careful in how we structure our communications because if I send notes off to a group of assistants and ask them to do something that's going to be discoverable, whereas the telephone call that I have with them it just said well, that's what's discoverable, and did you have any notes? Well, no, I just remembered it all. So there's a lot of give and take with that.
Speaker 1The other thing that I really enjoy doing and I figured this out at the beginning of the project when I've taken on and that is you know, what do you want me to do? You know you want me to just to write a report, to be an expert. You want me to evaluate this with this information. You know, you know the depositions and the. You know and the and the. You know the depositions and the evidence and then present a neutral report. Or, you know, do you really want me to be part of your strategy and the team I'm working with right now. The two attorneys are excellent.
Speaker 1And we have periodic calls where it's okay, I really think you should look at this and that's me telling them so that they can use my expert's ability to help their case the best possible. So I referred them to a number of things.
Speaker 1We've looked at bringing in some other experts for small issues that are gonna really support that as well, as they're not real estate people, they're lawyers and so they're arguing a case, and so I'm trying to help them understand the realm of real estate and how that works, and so it's a real two-way effort and that's the way I really enjoy doing it. I've worked on other cases where they just said, okay, you're going to be deposed, here's the information, you're going to be deposed on a certain day. And then right before trial, they said, well, don't say this or don't say that, and that's it. So that's not my how I enjoy working with the most and that's not how I think I can add value, you know, to my cases Working on part of the strategy with them going over the information to make sure, a, it's correct and, b, that where we're getting that from.
Speaker 1You know that person got some credibility and you know what is this written evidence. You know what does the documentary evidence say and how does that relate to what it is that we're doing. And then trying to put it all together. As we put it all together, I work with them say, hey, here's where I'm going with this, this is what I've got, and you know we bounce that back and forth.
Speaker 2And so it's time on the phone and sometimes a little bit of email too. Absolutely, do you advocate for a more proactive approach if you're in the other type of situation where the attorneys aren't offering a lot and they just kind of say, just like you said before deposition, don't say this, don't say that and go, do you think that expert witnesses need to say, hey, these are the things that I need to be able to perform my best, or do you think it's best for experts to kind of just perform under the situations that they find themselves in?
The Right Fit for Every Case
Speaker 1Well, I could usually begin the conversation with the attorneys and say you know, and tell them that you know exactly what you said. Look, here's how I can best help you. It's up to you in order to tell me you know how you want me to interact with you, and I'm more than willing to do that. But you know, to have my services really be value add to you and give you the impact that you want, I think you're better off, you know, working with me so that we can go back and forth on a supportive basis. Otherwise, I don't think it's good value.
Speaker 2Absolutely. I'll just show up in court you know, and we'll hope for the best. Can you tell me about some of the different venues that you've worked in and maybe some of the differences between them?
Speaker 1Oh wow, Let me tell you something I've worked in many venues. I've been in federal court I've represented municipalities and government entities and into state court in several states. I've represented municipalities and government entities and to state court in several states. I've worked in civil and criminal courts, bankruptcy court, court supervised settlements and mediation and arbitration. I've even been appointed to run failed businesses by bankruptcy courts.
Speaker 1So, you know, one of my most interesting things in that was, you know, I spent five years unwinding one business with assets in El Salvador and across Florida. And let me tell you, el Salvador is not an easy place or a safe place to necessarily do business, you know. And at that time you know, it was still recovering from the Civil War and I was charged with recovering property and completing construction necessary to finalize a recovery and sale. And I've also worked on fraud cases that occurred in Brazil and, you know, extended into federal and civil courts in Florida. I'm currently involved in a case in South Carolina and I've done work in and out of Jamaica. So my venues are pretty broad in that regard and I'll tell you something it can be nice and it can be very trying too. Zoom is a real help in terms of minimizing one's travel.
Speaker 2Speaking of travel, when you do have to get on an airplane somewhere, how do you manage those expenses? Does that get billed directly to the client or do you make that part of your retainer? Do you get reimbursed? How do you handle travel expenses?
Speaker 1Well, I try wherever possible to receive a reasonable retainer and then work against it. I don't let the retainer constrain me in any way or constrain me in any way. I will always tell who I'm working with that I'm going to have travel expenses when we come to our agreement. I have a set of fees that I charge, which are gradated by am I going to be talking to you? Am I going to be writing a report? I'm going to be being deposed? Am I going to be on the stand? So I have a whole range of fees that we do. That, I think, is fair and they're generally accepted.
Speaker 1I charge a flat fee per day to travel, In other words. So if I'm traveling, it's a set amount of money that you're going to pay me, and then my expenses on top of that. I don't travel first class, unless it is that you want me to, but at the same time I don't charge for my time other than that flat fee. You know if we're then going to be engaged. You know the next day. Usually, you know in our trial or deposition or whatever. Yeah, that's when the hours start accumulating again. But a flat fee for a day, plus reimb, plus reversible expenses, is the easiest way to do it.
Speaker 2When you're traveling to all of these venues all over the world and all over the country, how important is it that you have some understanding of the differences vis-a-vis the laws and regulations and just the common things? I had one guest tell me that they almost started calling judges your honor in England, where they don't use your honor. Do you have to make sure that you're ready for those sorts of eventualities and if so, how do you go about educating yourself? Oh wow.
Speaker 1Well, I speak Spanish and I went to school in Mexico and lived on the frontier in El Paso for a number of years, and so I understand Spanish culture, you know fairly well and of course then you understand, and then, as you get into it, you understand that Salvadorian culture is different from Nicaraguan culture, is different from Guatemalan, it's different from different parts of Mexico, right, just like it is in the United States. And so I really listen first and try to understand, ask a lot of questions, and you know, when I went to Brazil I had to have a translator, you know, with me, but you know I could do most of the work in Spanish when I was in, you know, in Salvador, in Jamaica, you know, you just go, hey man, you know, so you really adopt what's there.
Working with Legal Teams
Speaker 2They have English common law down there, so it's much simpler, except when you're dealing with land, you've got to look at different land systems like routes and chains, and different surveying techniques, and then move back and forth between meters and imperial Absolutely. As a former professor, does that inform the way that you interact with juries and your demeanor, because you're used to explaining things to people?
Speaker 1I was accused of being a professor for years before I was a professor. So you're right, it does. I try to state what the problem is or what the question is, and then very methodically move through well, this is this, this is this, this is this and this is how I got to that, and so I try to do that very much in my writing and in support in my reports, as well as being on the stand. I think it makes it easier for the judge.
Speaker 1A lot of the cases you know are without a jury. You know they're bench trials and so you know when you go through business things like that, it needs to be very clear. It also needs to have a set of standards that you apply to it, just like you would in academia, standards that you apply to it just like you would in academia. This comes from this source and this is a reliable source, accepted by, you know, the American Institute of Testing Services or whatever it is that you're doing. And so that you have the veracity you know, as well as the gravitas you know from your experience and background, to show in court that your opinion is not only valid, you know what you're saying is accepted and considered to be either normal or standard in terms of, you know, the business itself of real estate, which is vast and diverse.
Speaker 2Speaking of vast and diverse. How do you stay? You told me earlier about your wheelhouse and then named about 2,000 different things that are in your wheelhouse. How do you stay on top of such a broad, diverse and dynamic niche? I read a lot. That's the first thing.
Speaker 1And I have a good cadre of people that I'm with, both in work and social ability. I continue to be very involved in my community and so I'm active in, you know, on a monthly basis, in zoning and other matters I have. Gee, I started my career really in 1975. And so I've been around for a long time and you know there's an accumulation of knowledge, but it's also maintaining that knowledge, keeping up with and making sure that I'm on top of, and then when I get a case I also do more research. So I want to make sure that, a what I know is current, b I want to know that it's still valid, and C I want to know that if there's any industry standards that have changed or modified over time, that's very important to me.
Speaker 2Reading listening and asking good questions really helps focus.
Speaker 1you know, what it is that I've got to bring to the table Is additional research that you need to do as part of an engagement, a billable expense. I generally don't do that. I don't bill it. What I do do, noah, is to work closely with the attorneys and say here's what I want to do and get them to say, yeah, that sounds good. Or, you know, maybe you want to think about it this way or that way.
Speaker 1You know, working with attorneys is really important because, you know, I want to have a collegial relationship with these guys and it's like talking to you on the phone, I mean here on Zoom. Sure, I want to make sure that it's pleasant, enjoyable and that it's productive for both of us. You know I don't get into arguments. I'll listen. If I disagree with something, I'll think about it before I bring it back up. And you know I'm there to serve them and their needs on the case and I'm not there to solve the case. I'm there unless I'm working it out of bankruptcy. I'm there to be. You know I'm there to be supportive of their arguments.
Speaker 2What do you enjoy about being not only a real estate expert, but an expert witness in general? What is edifying?
Speaker 1Oh, so many things. I love the challenge of it, I love learning new things, of meeting the different people, of coming to understand, maybe, how a transaction transpired and then fell apart, transpired and then fell apart, or how someone came to understand something different than what it was that they thought that they had done. Um, just the diversity of things. You know, I would say about 60 of my work is for defendants and rather than plaintiffs, and I've done cases where it was really bordering on elder abuse. I mean, I was in a case where there was a vulture fund that came in and bought a property from a very elderly man and you know, just in dealing with it.
Speaker 1You could understand, you know he was having some cognitive difficulties and but yet he. He was very successful and very intelligent, but he couldn't deliver on part of the sale, and so they he, he canceled that sale, and then they came back two years later and tried to enforce it.
Global Experience in Various Courts
Speaker 1And and you know it was just, it was wrong. And you know they tried to use all kinds of legal things. And you know it was just it was wrong. And you know they tried to use all kinds of legal things and you know they even brought an appraiser in on that particular transaction. I've never seen appraisal you know that this guy made and it's like what You're going to tell me, that the value of this property is this appraisal that was done 15 years ago in three counties away and it's not even related. So you know I enjoy that. You know all of those challenges and trying to figure out interesting things.
Speaker 1I also really enjoy helping people. That's always been the thing that I've done. I don't take cases where I think that I'm going to be drawn into any kind of moral question. I've got to live with myself, and so I've turned down cases where it's oh well, can you do X, y and Z, and I didn't really believe that and I thought it was best that you know and I thought it was best for someone else to take that on.
Speaker 2So you know, like I said, I got to get up every morning.
Speaker 1For all those mornings I'm going to get up?
Speaker 2Absolutely. You had mentioned that you have a roughly 60-40 split between defense and plaintiff side cases. Is there a significant difference to an expert witness in working for defense versus plaintiff?
Speaker 1Yeah, there is In the defense. You really got to go figure out what is it that the plaintiff is not only looking at, but what is it that they're alleging that you did or didn't do? Okay, and then piece that together with the documentary evidence and then the depositions of all the people involved, and so you're really working backwards from it. On the plaintiff side, you're really moving forward with it. You've got the complaint and you're moving. You know a whole set of facts that you know up front, you know in order to do that, and then you go back and try to support them. So one is a forward movement and then the other one's. You know, you know backward movement. In other words, I've got, I've got to reconstruct this thing and to make and then to see where it broke. So it's reverse engineering, I guess, is what it's called Absolutely.
Speaker 2One thing that I'm starting to dig into a little bit are pre-trial or pre-deposition routines. Do you have anything that you like to do to get yourself ready for the day? Could be hours and hours of a deposition. It could be a difficult cross-examination Are you sure to make sure you eat something or make sure you don't eat something? What is your pre-trial or pre-deposition routine?
Speaker 1Well, usually on a pre-trial or pre-deposition routine, Well, usually on a pre-trial, pre-deposition, I'm going to meditate and I'm going to bring myself to a nice calm level. I'm going to minimize the coffee that I drink and I'm going to drink a lot of lemon water, so I'm going to have water with me and because I dry out and from being asked questions and providing answers over time. But I also try to maintain a calm composure and go look, this is business, this is court, and it's all about facts. It's not about emotion, it's about what it is that we have to solve today. It's about what it is that we have to solve today and how can I best do that?
Speaker 1You know I grew up in the military and so you know I tend to be very respectful of people and their opinions. I have a pretty quick mind, I think, and I've been told. But at the same time, you know, I've got to work on holding myself back sometimes, because they'll get to the question and they'll answer. They'll ask the question and then sometimes there's a little corollary that goes along with it. So I always try to make sure that I give a good pause in all of those things before answering that question and then look at them directly to make sure that they're. You know that the attorney's face says, well, I'm done, it's time for you to answer. So we can do that, and I will usually bring notes in a binder and things like that. And of course you know, for the most part those have already been discovered and everything. But they're aids for me to go and look at, you know, while we're talking, so that I don't make mistakes and we all make mistakes, sure. So you know, it's about trying to align everything as best as possible.
Speaker 2When you are in front of a jury, or even in your expert witness reports, do you ever use demonstratives such as charts, graphs, models, anything like that?
Speaker 1use demonstrative, such as charts, graphs, models, anything like that. Oh, you bet, I mean I did a case where this case evolved from a zoning issue, where a county government had promised to change the zoning on a particular piece of property that was being taken, okay, for a major habitat restoration and preservation. And the wonderful thing about it was the county kept refusing, thinking, oh well, we'll just let this go through and we won't do that and so we'll save all this money. Well, no, you know, I mean I sat down, you know afterwards, okay the case. I mean the sale closed.
Speaker 1I mean I sat down, you know afterwards, okay the case. I mean the sale closed. I mean it had to, okay, but the property owner was just really angry because they were, you know, they were promised one thing and didn't get it. Okay, also, that this entity could save money. Well, you know, I put together a number of graphics and showed how, you know, what had happened to it, in addition to spreadsheets and what their entitlements were like. And as it went through court, you know they ended up with $40 million settlement, you know, in their favor, over and above what they had already gotten paid for the property.
Speaker 2Wow.
Speaker 1So, but it took a few years, you know, to wind that through.
Speaker 1But the judge cited that and then I did another case on signage and land use regulation and about half of it was graphical. To show the court, you know what the standards really were, because when you look at the zoning code, you know until recently these zoning codes weren't, weren't graphic, ok, and they just listed things. Oh, your sign can't be xyz or it can't do this. And so I I did a whole set of graphics and got some graphic people to work with me and we put that together and the judge cited that as hey, I understand what it is that you were doing and, by the way, your client wins, so that that was good. I think it's really, really important you know to do that, because if people can't see something that way, you know what they do see is what they see, not necessarily what it is.
Preparing for Testimony and Depositions
Speaker 1And so you want to. In my cases I want to try to show everybody the same thing. So if I'm going to show them a picture, say this building okay, I've got a picture of the building. I don't want them to imagine it, because some of them may make it you know Cinderella's castle and other people may make it. You know Uncle Tom's cabin. So I don't want to make sure that there's differing things you know, in people's mind. I want to make sure that there's differing things you know in people's mind. I want to make sure that they see the same thing that we're all trying to talk about.
Speaker 2Do you typically produce your own demonstratives or do you have an outside company build them for you?
Speaker 1It really depends on what it is that's needed. You know I'm skilled enough that I can do that in certain cases. Um, you know I'm I'm skilled enough that I can do that in certain cases, and then I have other folks where it's you know they'll create something much better than I can, and so we'll do that, and they all have to be done at separate scale too, because they're all admissible. So you've got to turn it on one side so that it can get into the court record, and then, when you bring it into court, you blow it up, sure, and so you really want to start and do that that way.
Speaker 1In terms of spreadsheets and complex financial, you know matter, you know, I mean, you're looking at sheets that will go on and on and on. So it's about how you take the essence of that and then put that up in court so that it's very impactful. You know this equals this, and this is why this is this, you know, rather than having these long string of numbers or anything like that, because it doesn't make any sense. They're not experts, they're relying on me to tell that story.
Speaker 2Absolutely. Do you have any pivotal cases that you can talk about? You obviously, you know, can't always give specifics because of various and sundry rules, but in general, are there cases that either reinforced the way that you go about expert witnessing or changed in some fundamental way the way that you go about some aspect of expert witnessing?
Speaker 1As I mentioned, noah, everything is really unique, even though being an expert is pretty much the same each time, each one of these interactions, just like, you know, meeting other people yes, it's another person, but it's wholly different, and so I would say that what really changes is my ability to be more and more flexible in terms of thinking, in terms of dealing with things and then looking at stuff, you know, in different ways.
Speaker 1I always tell people that you know I'm an out-of-the-box thinker. You know because I know what the inside of the box looks like, because I get inside the box, understand what's in there and then get outside of it and look and see what's on the outside and then put the two together. So that's really what I've learned more and more over time. I mean my first, you know, undertakings when I was in my early 30s were, you know I was absolute, of course, and you know because I knew it all. You know I had a mastery, and so we just don't think like that anymore. You know very hard to look at multiple angles of everything in every case, and for me that's fun.
Speaker 2Sure, absolutely.
Speaker 1And it should be fun. You should be enjoying your work. Before we wrap up, do you have any last advice for either newer expert witnesses or for attorneys that work with expert witnesses? Listen, be kind, be sympathetic, be understanding and do your best to try to be a team player. We've got different generations that are working together today and not everybody speaks the same language, even though it may be in English. Different venues, different cultures everything's just a little bit different.
Speaker 1I do my best to be open-minded, sincere, honest and ethical. Ethics are so important in court and, if anything, that would be my recommendation to folks Be as ethical and honest as you absolutely can. You know. If you make a mistake you know, put the nails in your hand first you know and admit it If you know. If there's other issues where you don't know about something, don't say that you do you know, say I don't know that and know that, or I can't answer that question. Litigation is a very expensive process and we take this on hoping for the best, and it's up to us as experts, to do the best that we can for the people that have retained us.
Speaker 1And all of those issues go to, you know, the points of ethics, honesty and the ability to do what you're asked to when you're asked to, and to deliver that work on time, and then, if needed, to be flexible and make changes and modifications as the process goes on. So you know, in short, it's just like being a human being Sage advice.
Speaker 2Excellent, Mr Maxwell. Thank you so much for joining me here today.
Speaker 1Noah, thank you for having me. It's been a real pleasure.
Speaker 2Of course, and thank you to our listeners for joining me for another episode of Engaging Experts Cheers.
Speaker 1Thank you for listening to our podcast Engaging Experts. Our show notes are available on our podcast Engaging Experts. Our show notes are available on our website roundtablegroupcom.