Engaging Experts
After 25 years helping litigators find the right expert witnesses, Round Table Group’s network contains some of the world’s greatest experts. On this podcast, we talk to some of them about what’s new in their field of study and their experience as expert witnesses.
Engaging Experts
Engaging with Forensic Cosmetology Expert, Laura DuPriest
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In this episode…
Today’s guest is Ms. Laura DuPriest, a licensed esthetician, manicurist, cosmetologist, and spa therapist. She is also an entrepreneur, published author, and expert witness with over 20 years of experience.
Zoom can be convenient, but Ms. DuPriest prefers in-person depositions and trials to avoid technical difficulties and better connect with the parties. With her experience in the beauty industry, she understands the impact of presence and notes that juries will size up experts based on their demeanor despite court instructions.
Check out the full episode for our conversation on travel billing, the importance of expert witnesses to fair defenses, and forming a concise opinion.
Introduction to Laura DuPriest
Speaker 1This episode is brought to you by Roundtable Group, the experts on experts. We've been connecting attorneys with experts for over 30 years. Find out more at roundtablegroupcom.
Speaker 2Welcome to Engaging Experts. I'm your host, noah Balmer, and today I'm excited to welcome Ms Laura Dupriest to the show Now. Ms Dupriest is the founder of a day spa and cosmetics line. She's a clinical licensed esthetician, manicurist, cosmetologist and spa therapist. She's a published author and sought after expert witness with over 20 years of expert witnessing experience. Ms Dupree, thank you so much for joining me here today on Engaging Experts.
Speaker 1Well, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure.
Speaker 2Of course, let's jump into it. So, from runway model to entrepreneur, you have over 40 years in beauty expertise. How did you first get involved in expert witnessing?
Speaker 1Well, that's probably a question you ask. Many experts and all of my friends and family ask me the same question. I initially got involved because I was doing the hair of a client who happened to be an attorney, and he knew I was a makeup artist as well. This was in my salon in downtown Sacramento, at the Hyatt Regency, and we saw a lot of business people there and he said you know, laura, I need to ask you a question about how makeup can cover bruises. And I went well, that's an odd question from a male, you know. I said sure, that's an odd question from a male, you know. I said sure, what, what's in regards to what? And he explained that he had a case where there was a domestic violence situation and he was defending the one of the parties who claimed that the other party had falsified physical abuse and that they believe this was done by, you know, with makeup or makeup creation. I can't remember exactly how it went, and so I agreed to look at it and he in fact, in fact had me testify in court just as a makeup artist, not as an expert.
Speaker 1And then, a few years later, in 2005, I got a phone call from a law firm in Oregon who wanted to know if I could look at a file and be their expert. Well, I didn't understand really at that time. Expert in the legal world, expert in my world, was someone who was just good at something. So I agreed to look at the file and I gave them what I thought in a phone call. Well then what came next was, well, can you write a report? And I said, ok, well, I had to contact some friends that were attorneys to find out what do you do when you write a report. So my engagement initially was very, you know, from a novice point of view, and it took maybe one case a year requested by, you know, attorneys from California mostly, until finally it got to be an understanding with myself that this was actually something that a lot of people do in different fields. So it kind of started as a trickle really.
Speaker 2That's really interesting. You mentioned that when you were first brought on, you had to do a little bit of outside research to find out exactly. Hey, what is an expert witness report? What exactly is the format? How does this go? Would you advise attorneys that are working with newer expert witnesses that they could be doing a better job in informing their new expert witnesses on exactly what is required of them?
Speaker 1Well, that's a good question. So I come from a center of my universe as integrity and authenticity. So I always say if you don't know, ask, which I did. And also there's a way to come about the expert witness from the expert witness position in different manners. For instance, some people take classes and try to become certified in experts. I've never done that because I was still engaged in my career.
Speaker 1I owned salons at the time.
Speaker 1I was, you know, even a celebrity hairstylist as well as a regular hairstylist and what that means is that I had my clientele from the neighborhood at my salons and what that means is that I had my clientele from the neighborhood at my salons and I also had people that I had to go fly and be a hairstylist and makeup artist for and I still do that.
Speaker 1By the way, I still fly places for my clinical work.
Speaker 1So you're always caught between how to handle your expert work with your clinical work, and a lot of us that are experts and many attorneys want an expert to still be in their field so that they can be current and relevant to whatever is going on. So that's a long-winded answer to your question, but I think that attorneys always want to assume that their expert is experienced, but many people are not. They could be an expert in their field, but very unfamiliar with legal language, what a report looks like, how to present a report, and even after 20 years in the business. I ask my counselors I'll say what format do you want the report? Because some of them will want it just in a Word document and others will want it in a pleading document. So to answer your question, I think when attorneys solicit an expert or hire an expert, no matter what their CV says, to give them a little bit of framework as far as what they're looking for in the opinion, in the final report or testimony, if that makes any sense.
Speaker 2It does. Let's talk a little bit more about those initial phone calls. So you get on the phone, you get a call from an attorney or maybe a paralegal, somebody from their office. How does that phone call go? What are the sorts of things that they're looking for, and what are the sorts of things that you're looking for when deciding whether or not to accept an expert engagement?
Speaker 1Good question. First of all, I always want to make sure the people that are soliciting my expertise know that I am a consultant and an expert witness. Because I approach the case as a consultant. I will consult with you briefly 10 or 15 minutes on the phone to find out a few things, because I do not want to involve myself in a case where I know I won't be able to either defend it or find the standards have been violated. So first step, before that even, is to make sure that I have no conflicts. So I set up a 10 or 15 minute phone call or a Zoom call and we want to make sure that I haven't heard from the opposing counsel on the case in some format. And if there are no conflicts of interest in me being a participant in the case, then I just like to let them tell me what happened. You know basically what happened in your view. And then the next step is I ask a few questions because I want to make sure that I'm a good representational fit for them for their case.
Speaker 2Sure, and so you've decided that this makes sense and it's a good fit. What are the next steps from there? Do you have any specific terms that you like to have in your contracts? For example, do you take a retainer? Do you like to bill project rates, hourly rates? How do you handle your contracts?
Becoming an Expert Witness
Speaker 1That's a good question too, and of course, I did not have a clue how to do any of this in the beginning Absolutely none. I was reliant on the legal law firms and I would say to them do you have a standard agreement? And they would email me that. Eventually, after having several of these, I compiled my own agreement, which is very templative. It's just a very basic template agreement and I send it with my rate and I ask for a retainer, which is the equivalent of 10 hours up front to start the case, and what that retainer ensures the counselors are is I can hold time. It makes. It gives them the assurance that I have the time and the bandwidth in my schedule, whether it be with hair and all the things that I do to see that case through. So it's basically a 10 hours upfront fee and then I bill against that per hour and I send the fee schedule as well.
Speaker 2Have you done a significant amount of travel as an expert witness? I know you do for your clinical work, but have you, as an expert witness, done significant travel?
Speaker 1I will tell you that before COVID, only two cases that I actually traveled to do a, a trial Attorneys seemed to want it.
Speaker 1When I was in Southern California they wanted to travel to me for a deposition, I assume because, it was something that was convenient to maybe, you know, see Southern California or see family in addition, you know, as an attachment to that. But then COVID hit and, of course, as you know, many courts is actually down and there wasn't a lot of activity. And now, since COVID, many courts and judges allow Zoom testimony and Zoom depositions. So the travel has been less, but I will tell you that travel in what I would say are larger cases, the cases involving, you know, business disputes, patent cases, things like that. There's still an in-presence need for all trials and depositions.
Speaker 2When it comes to travel. Is this typically a reimbursement sort of basis, or do they arrange travel for you? How do you typically handle travel in your contracts and then just mechanically?
Speaker 1In my contracts I simply talk about the fee for travel. There's an hour hour dollar per hour fee for actually traveling in the air. Now, for me, if I'm traveling in the air and I'm working on maybe a side case, a different case, and I'm studying on that case, I won't bill for my travel for that attorney. I will simply I never double bill. I'm studying on that case. I won't bill for my travel for that attorney. I will simply I never double bill. I'm very careful about that. And I don't bill for hotel room. You know the time in the hotel. I'm pretty easygoing because I have other things that I can be, you know, doing, obviously. So travel is billed and stated in the contract as a per hour a much lesser fee, of course, than expert testimony fee and then I am responsible to arrange my own travel. So far, all the travel is. You arrange it on a refundable basis, that's in case the case settles, and you simply add that to your billing once your travel has concluded.
Speaker 2You had mentioned Zoom, which is an interesting thing that I've heard from a lot of expert witnesses that a lot of depositions, sometimes even trials, have moved to Zoom. How do you feel about telepresence in court actions in general? Do you enjoy them? Do you like being at home around the kitty cat, or do you prefer to be there in person? Is there a difference in the way that you connect to a jury or have to present yourself in terms of demeanor? How has Zoom affected you as an expert witness?
Speaker 1Well, I can't speak for what the attorneys may feel, but I feel that in presence is immensely more valuable.
Speaker 1In the first place, I worry when I'm scheduled for a Zoom testimony. I worry that there'll be a technical difficulty and let's face it, as the witness I have to operate my own technical side. I don't have someone sitting with me to take care of if something goes wrong on my end. So that's always stressful and for me and what my attorneys that I've worked with that wanted an in-person witness their feeling is that it has more impact. It just has more impact when the jury can see you in person. And I think there's impact as well when the jury sees you walking to the bench and away from the bench. They're sizing up your credibility at all. You know, in all instances, no matter what the judge's instructions are. This is my personal feeling, but let's face it. I'm from the beauty industry where visual is everything you know. Everything about the beauty business has a visual side to it. So I'm going to be the person that will say I feel that the in-presence testimony, even in a deposition with attorneys present in the room, has more impact.
Speaker 2That's a really interesting connection between your work in the beauty niche with expert witnessing. In what way has your work in the beauty industry affected the way that you go about expert witnessing and connecting with juries?
Speaker 1Well, let's start basically with a paper report. Reports can be very dry if they're just filled with words, and a lot of the way I started out as a witness was testifying for injuries that may or may not have happened in a salon, or, if they did happen, was there a standard that was violated, and many times they're just purely an accident. Other times there was negligence involved with that injury. So I like to show exactly what we're talking about, because if you say someone got a burn from a chemical on their head, that doesn't have as much impact as showing the end result of a very large bald spot. So visually, I'm a visual person anyway and that probably language and the way someone presents can obviously give people an understanding as to how credible they are, for instance, that's just my feeling.
Speaker 2Let's back up a little bit and talk about preparation. When you're getting ready for a deposition or a trial, what sorts of routines do you have, or do you? Or a trial, what sorts of routines do you have or do you? I've had expert witnesses tell me that they like to have a big meal or have coffee or nothing, or meditate. Do you have a pre-deposition or pre-trial ritual that helps you prepare yourself for what's coming?
Speaker 1As far as that day, as in a you know preparing for it, as if a you know a stage performer prepared for a performance. No, not at all, because depositions are usually scheduled not super, super early. They're usually, you know, a nine or 10 event, and so I try not to have too much coffee. But I have come to learn as an expert that's done more than one or two depositions. You're perfectly welcome to take breaks as you need to, so I don't worry about that side of it.
Speaker 1I like to be extraordinarily prepared, and what I mean by that, as I review everything. I reviewed from the very beginning when I wrote my report, and I always review my opinion report, but I also review opposing counsel's, opinion experts, just to make sure that I have every understanding. So it's kind of like you really can't. You really can't fake an exam. You have to be prepared, and so the preparation for me is making sure I have enough sleep and a day or two ahead of time to thoroughly prepare. And after, if you're thoroughly prepared, then I really have no other trade secrets.
Speaker 2Of course Are there a couple of stories that you have or cases that you recall that either change the way that you go about some fundamental part of expert witnessing or reinforce something that you already do.
Speaker 1The biggest advice I can give, or experience and I will tag a few stories in here is to, every time you read a case, read their experts reports very thoroughly, not only in what they say but how they format them and what standards are they using.
Speaker 1It's interesting because I have found in my field not made up standards, but standards that are irrelevant. For instance, somebody might've been injured in a particular way in a salon, but the opposing expert sites, well, they didn't wear gloves, but the wearing of the gloves had nothing to do with the injury. In other words, a lot of experts will throw I call it spaghetti at the wall and hope something sticks. I try not to do that because as I'm reading those reports, I can see what their process is. I want to opine on specific, concise standards that were actually particular to what happened in the injury or in a manufacturing case, for instance in that case. So being very concise is important to me and not filling the report up with extra words that aren't important to the case, up with extra words that aren't important to the case. So I definitely have learned to hone my own ability to articulate by reading other experts. Even if they're dry and boring and long I read them and it gives me a lot of insight.
Navigating Expert Witness Engagements
Speaker 2Absolutely, and as somebody who's worked on both the defense and plaintiff side as an expert witness, I imagine that you've had to write rebuttal reports which involve exactly what you're talking about, kind of taking apart the other person's report. Do you have a preference on working for either the plaintiff or the defendant side, or for writing initial or rebuttal reports?
Speaker 1You know, I really don't, because in the beginning I was just asked by both sides and since I really wasn't truly experienced on even how the defense side works or the plaintiff side, let's take an injury case, for example. Certainly, if someone gets hurt, I have compassion for the injury, but oftentimes an injury can be inflated as to you know how much money should be awarded for that, and so I have. I. I have to, um, kind of look at that side of it as well as the fact that in our legal system everyone deserves a defense. That's the way our legal system is built.
Speaker 1So I I used to think, well, how can I work defending a salon that possibly hurt somebody? But again, I love my industry and the salon industry is an amazing industry with many talented people, so I want to make sure that the facts to the case are relevant. So, in defending someone that was involved in injuring someone in a salon, it has to be presented in such a way that is truthful and real and, like I said many times, injuries are can be, you know, an unfortunate accident versus somebody that is just not following regulations and sanitary rules and really causing harm.
Speaker 2In your cases have you worked on a lot of extensive teams behind the scenes. Do you work with or alongside other expert witnesses when you are typically in an engagement?
Zoom vs. In-Person Testimony
Speaker 1I have in larger cases that involve um manufacturing. Or, for instance, I've worked on a couple of patent cases and I can't speak a lot about that because one of them is still pending, but in that regard it involves a lot of moving parts, so it's not just one person who was cutting someone's hair and something happened In that instance. There can be a lot of reasons to bring in different experts. There might be someone that's versed in the engineering of a product, someone else that understands the chemistry of a product, so I've had to be on a team. With the last big team I worked with, there was eight other experts, so I have to review their reports as well so that I understand how they contributed to the case.
Speaker 2And how does that interfacing work? Do you work pretty closely with them or do you feel pretty cordoned off from each other?
Speaker 1We don't work together closely, but what does happen is if I'm opining on parts of my report in an area that I'm not an expert in, I'm opining on parts of my report in an area that I'm not an expert in like, for instance, I'm not a doctor. So oftentimes I will read an emergency room report so I can understand how soon after the salon injury did the plaintiff go to the hospital, for instance, and I will read the medical report. But I'm clearly stay in my line of cosmetology because I'm not a doctor. So I don't talk to the doctor, but I might read their report. But if I have questions, counselors may set up a Zoom meeting where I can, you know, zoom with the physician to get my questions answered.
Speaker 1And again, it's very important. I would say this is probably one of the most important aspects of being an expert is your field, is your field, and you may. You don't step outside of those lines. An example for that is I've I've come across another cosmetology expert and I learned not crossing the line because they were disqualified in a particular case for offering a medical opinion, and so it's really, really important that when you're working with a team of experts, that you kind of really stay in your lane.
Speaker 2if that makes any sense, it does. You had mentioned earlier that this is kind of a small niche and there really is only a handful of experts doing exactly what you do. Does that mean that you come face to face with kind of the same group of experts time after time when you get called before a case?
Speaker 1Yes, yes, I have probably three, no two other people in my particular field that I regularly see on the opposite side or in interviewing me, the attorneys. Let me know that you know, we found you, but we there's nobody else in the field and I've heard that a lot too, and I think it's particularly in the cosmetology field, because career professionals in the cosmetology world may not have ever had the opportunity to become an expert or they don't stay in the field long enough. I'm kind of rare. This is my 44th year in the cosmetology field and I started as a manicurist and then, after 10 years, moved to aesthetics and then moved to hair. So I kind of and continued to do all three as a matter of fact because of my clientele interface, continued to do all three as a matter of fact because of my clientele interface. So I think the reason that there aren't a lot of experts in my particular field is just because individuals don't stay in that field for a long time.
Speaker 2They might, for instance, you know, interrupt their career to have a baby, or they got into the hair field and they didn't find it enjoyable or whatever. Does that ever create any friction between you and other expert witnesses if you see them time after time and you have to kind of take apart each other, or does it make it easier because you kind of understand who it is that you're going to be coming up against?
Working with Opposing Experts
Speaker 1Well, I've never interacted personally so far with the other experts. The other experts with the exception of one who was. It was an isolated case, it wasn't a salon injury case, so you don't really interact with them and you do get used to the reports. Sometimes I can say to the attorney that is interviewing me who is your expert on the other side of the case, and they'll let me know and I'll say, well, this is, I've worked. You know, I've seen their reports before. So this is what I anticipate you know will be opined on, because you can anticipate that to a degree. So, but I haven't ever interacted directly with them. I have respect for anyone who is an expert in this field, because in the first place you didn't get put there because you were a beginner in your field, and so obviously there's tremendous respect. I don't always agree with the opinion, of course, but there is respect.
Speaker 2What makes for a good relationship, from the outset and then ongoing, between an expert and the attorney that they're engaged by?
Speaker 1Well, I can go by what I think and I can also share a little feedback I've received Transparency and communication. So a couple of instances I can tell you is when the attorney had a schedule anticipated that was faster than they allowed for, in my opinion, like they asked me for a report next week than they allowed for, in my opinion, like they asked me for a report next week. I just let them know what my parameters are and what my availability is and see if there's a way to work it out or I don't take the case. And the secondly is just to make sure, like if I'm delayed, sometimes I'm working on a report and I have promised that it will be arriving in the next week and then something comes up with a case that you know was from a month ago, that they have an emergency situation. I just send an email, I'll let them know I've had a slight delay and I I will be circling back to this on this day.
Speaker 1You know, I find that as long as you have really good communication skills and let them know what's going on, then there's you know, you can always reach an agreement. So, other than that, just to make sure you're real transparent, and especially in the initial interview, because I've particularly in defense work. If I feel that their injury was going to be settled on the plaintiff's behalf and the salon that I've been asked to defend, I'll be very upfront, I'll say this is what happened and this is what mistakes were made, and I'm going to have to let you know that maybe I'm not the right person for you or I won't be able to officially opine on the report because it won't benefit you. I just let them know.
Speaker 2Sure. Do you find that it's important to solicit feedback from your engagements? I know that a lot of expert witnesses you know may leave the action long before it's finished because they only have a portion to do in court or because it goes to settlement and they might not hear from the attorney after that. Should expert witnesses be soliciting feedback to see how they did what they did right, how they could improve, or is that something that you kind of prefer to learn on your own?
Attorney-Expert Relationships
Speaker 1No, I always ask for feedback and when a case settles, if the attorney calls me personally or their paralegal does, or they send me an email, um and we've been very familiar during the engagement, and what I mean by that is regular zoom calls or regular phone calls I always ask for a um 10 minute zoom wrap up call. And I do a zoom on purpose because I want to be able to understand if there was something that they felt I was lacking in or could improve. But they often don't have time for that, so I have to kind of feel out by their pace. Some people do, Some people don't.
Speaker 1I have had attorneys. Also, when they send me the email that the case has settled, they offer, you know, some sort of positive opinion like it was wonderful to work with you. I look forward to working with you again. You know, sometimes that could just be their standard wrap up for a case, but many times they'll recommend me for another case. So it just depends on you know attorneys are so busy case, so it just depends on you know attorneys are so busy. That's the one thing I didn't understand as an expert and I have great empathy for it, because I have a daughter that's an attorney. So I now understand the world on the other side and the time constraints and the available bandwidth for attorneys and their schedule is really rough. So I understand that more now than I did 20 years ago when I started.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It certainly has changed. Before we wrap up, you had mentioned before that you don't do a lot of marketing. Have you found that expert witness referral services have been useful?
Speaker 1I never went looking for expert work. Expert work found me because of, like I said, there's very few of us in the cosmetology and beauty field as experts. I feel like it should be a natural occurrence. An attorney can find you if they need you and if they need the help of a referral service, then I think that that's very, very beneficial. Referral service, then I think that that's very, very beneficial.
Speaker 1So I leave that up to the natural progress, the organic evolution of how that occurs, because I think that as an expert you have to remain in your corner of the world and very true to the nature of your business. So whereas in the hair world we market to people all of the time and we're always trying to let them know what you know, what our abilities are and our services is, it's a little different in the expert work. But when I've been contacted by a referral agency, you know I will fill out the profile so they have my information. But I really haven't found that. It just hasn't been in my wheelhouse to actively go and solicit. I've been fortunate to be very busy.
Speaker 2Before we wrap up, do you have any last advice for expert witnesses and particularly newer expert witnesses or even attorneys working with newer expert witnesses?
Speaker 1What really does help is just have a clear statement of facts that they could read over the phone or, if they don't feel like emailing them, but a statement of facts so that you can really see, like, for instance, the name of the salon, the state, because what I'll initially do is do a quick overview of the laws in that state. I'm licensed, by the way, in North Carolina and in California, but many of the statutes are overlapping and they're fairly consistent in the standards. But knowing a little bit more about the case and what exactly happened not, for instance, she went to a nail salon and they hurt her nail that doesn't help me. I need to understand was there an illegal tool used? You know what? Did they pull it out of their pocket or a drawer instead of out of a sanitary container? So some facts are really helpful so that we can figure out if there is a standard and a violation of standards that could be assessed for the case.
Speaker 1And as far as experts go, read up about it. Do do some searches about what it takes to be an expert expert. I would not necessarily sign myself up for a certification program, because I think it's important in our field not to be a pay-to-play expert witness. I think you learn on the job and you learn case by case. But you can certainly do searches and ask you know what does it take to be an expert witness and things like that, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2It does Sage advice. Ms Dupree, thank you so much for joining me here today.
Final Advice and Closing
Speaker 1You're very welcome. Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2And thank you to our listeners for joining me for another episode of Engaging Experts Cheers.
Speaker 1Thank you for listening to our podcast Engaging Experts. Our show notes are available on our website roundtablegroupcom.